fb9faba2 |
<html prefix="og: http://ogp.me/ns#">
<head>
<title>TNET</title>
<meta property="og:title" content="tNET" />
<meta property="og:url" content="http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/TNET.html" />
<meta property="og:type" content="website" />
<meta property="og:image" content="http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/TNET_256.png" />
<meta property="og:description" content="This is an archive of tNET in its full glory." />
<script src="http://code.jquery.com/jquery-1.11.0.min.js"></script>
<script src="http://code.jquery.com/jquery-migrate-1.2.1.min.js"></script>
<script type="text/javascript">
$(document).ready(function() {
$('#submit').click(function() {
var targ = $('#goto');
var scrollTo = '#post_'+targ.val();
console.log(scrollTo);
$('html, body').animate({
'scrollTop': $(scrollTo).offset().top
})
})
$('#goto').keyup(function(ev) {
if (ev.which == 13) {
$('#submit').click();
}
});
});
</script>
<style type="text/css">
ol {
padding-left:5em;
}
.even {
background: hsl(0,0%,90%);
}
.name {
min-width: 20em;
background: hsl(255,50%,90%);
margin-right: 0.5em;
width: 100%;
}
#container {
max-width: 900px;
margin: auto auto;
}
.entry + .entry {
margin-top: 0.5em;
}
.entry:hover {
outline: thin black solid;
}
div#nav {
background:olive;
color:white;
position: fixed;
left: 1em;
top: 1em;
border-radius:1em;
padding:1em;
width:5em;
}
input#goto {
width: 100%;
background: white;
border: thin solid black;
}
input#submit {
background: gray;
border: thin solid black;
margin: auto auto;
position: relative;
width: 50%;
left: 25%;
}
.text {
color: white;
}
</style>
</head>
<body>
<div id="nav">
Post #:
<input type="text" id="goto"></input>
<input type="button" value="Go" id="submit"></input>
</div>
<div id="container">
<ol>
<li id="post_1" class="entry odd" data-likes="31" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-14T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T14:14:00 with 31 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Canadian presence at TAC has gone way too far when "Caribou" appears in a thesis title</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T14:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Slideshow? Wow. Getting high-tech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Christopher Michael Mercincavage" data-date="2014-08-14T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Michael Mercincavage at 2014-08-14T14:23:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see one decent paper on Belgian Lesbian Studies anywhere on this list! How can this be a legitimate school?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4" class="entry even" data-likes="16" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:38:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">“And They Were Both Naked … and Were Not Ashamed”: The Nude as the Highest Material Object of the Visual Art.<br />OH SNAP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wild how many of these are circling around political philosophy. I've wondered if this is a trend over the last decade or so. Richard Delahide Ferrier, David Quackenbush, Brian Dragoo - do you think there are more or less students writing on political philosophy topics these days than in the past? Or has it remained roughly constant?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T14:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Escalante: The next step will be a thesis on usury and the Loonie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A surprising number of theological interests: even something on evangelization. I'd say the students are taking over.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:51:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think if Tim Horton's and the Toonie make an appearance in a thesis title, it will be time for a scouring of the shire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are always at least that number of theological interests in play, Peregrine Bonaventure. Just like there are is an absurdly high percentage of grads who go into the religious life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really, do you have a graph? Also, TAC almost comes close to studying the volume of St. Thomas' work as Christendom theology students, not to mention... Ah, congratulations. TAC is wonderful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-14T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T14:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes quality is more important than volume <br />I always like seeing the "trends" of the thesis titles for each class. You can always tell which topics caused the most after class thought </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:00:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said "required" in the status, but I'm not even sure that I need to. <br />There may be theology majors in a precious few non-religious institutions who read as much St. Thomas, but we'd still be up there. As to Aristotle, however - I'd be willing to bet that almost no major anywhere reads as much Aristotle, and as slowly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T15:01:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">^and painfully^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom theology students study a greater volume of St. Thomas in the context of a greater range of the Church's Magisterium. So it is both quantity and quality. It is too bad no one at TAC is talking or writing about this yet, when some of its tutors are pushing questionable theories of evolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The claim that the "requirement" to read Thomas is greater at TAC than any other college, and not even close, is false and ridiculous. Christendom theology students are required to read a greater volume in a context which is more pre-eminent in quality. This false claim is presupposed by an academic bias, and what is the point of studying St. Thomas if you ere in theological speculation because of your academic bias? But congratulations! Every college graduate deserves congratulations!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-14T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T15:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you mean by in context? And I guess I should clarify my "quality" was a tease.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating-education/syllabus<br />Syllabus | Thomas Aquinas College<br />www.thomasaquinas.edu<br />The following is a list of works read in whole or in part in the curriculum of T...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-14T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T15:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those are specified Theology students not all Christendom students, which is the distinction that was being made I do believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-14T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#echochamber</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, not when they get out of the nest. One hopes. But that's partly my job online, which is why I am regarded as a LEEBEARELLE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Drew Summitt" data-date="2014-08-14T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Drew Summitt at 2014-08-14T15:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A Link to the Past: An Investigation of the Role of History in the Understanding and Development of Political Science"<br />Favorite one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:28:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I love most about all the titles is how wide sweeping they are. I mean, just let that one above sink in. HAH. But this is precisely what is needed in the fractured world in which we live, at least at the start. They will never deliver on their promise in these grandiose titles but letting them try without dying the death of a thousand footnotes is good stuff.<br />So long as they then get out and get particular and keep learning and realize they didn't actually solve the problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23" class="entry odd" data-likes="24" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-14T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:30:00 with 24 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By context we mean studying St. Thomas in the context of the fullness of the deposit of the Faith, and not the other way around. This would be very good to try more of at TAC, to help some of the theological theses to not drift so far into the speculative weeds and weirdness. I repeat that Christendom theology majors are required to read more Thomas and Church theology, so the claim is silly, and only underscores the hubris of TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_25" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-14T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what do you mean by in the context of the fullness of the faith? Supplementary readings, commentaries, by priests?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_26" class="entry even" data-likes="18" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-14T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:42:00 with 18 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Hello-oh-oh-oh: An Examination of the Relationship Between Relaxed Admissions Standards at Small Catholic Colleges and the Desire to Count Hours of Aquinas Read During College and Then Argue About Who Has Read More."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_27" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All true, and I complain about it all the time, but in the larger picture these places do pretty well at placing their top students. It drops off pretty quickly after that, but I think the complaints you bring up here (which I have shared for years) are a bit unfair when you zoom out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_28" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By fullness of the Faith, we mean the full deposit of divine revelation, as handed down by the Church, not just some of it, and out of context. We mean divine revelation, not just natural revelation, and we mean sacred theology, not just metaphysics. This is the Faith that perfects reason, and this is the only Faith that perfects reason. That you do not really understand this is telling of the kind of education you have been indoctrinated into at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_29" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-08-14T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-08-14T15:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that was quite a ride. I love it, the righteous ambition, the studious intent, the frequent whimsy of the topics (Ptolemy's equant, really?).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_30" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Gigliotti: the failure to launch business is also a matter of social circles. Those who got out quickly are already out and doing. But it's hard for any real liberal arts grads to crack the nut of the world out there, and for good reason. Basically the top students at these institutions are as good as anywhere, but it drops off quickly after that. <br />And let's not pretend that those who are quick to launch at other places are always happy ten years down the line, when they often come crashing back to earth.<br />But our circles deserve all the ridicule you give them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_31" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-14T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just like to knock you guys down a peg. I tease because I love.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_32" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love the Pasadena title above. <br />So, what are you doing with all this knowledge you think you have? "I'm a janitor right now. I feel alienated from the modern world."<br />$%^#%&</p>
</li>
<li id="post_33" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:55:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Gigliotti's: "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch" wins the satire prize thus far. More entries requested.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_34" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll zoom out from your words "not even close" until I cannot see them anymore. I will pray for you, my brother in Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_35" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still zooming...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_36" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:00:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's just a simple statement of fact - the place has no electives, so everyone takes the same courses, and thus they require more St. Thomas and Aristotle than everyone else. But if you want to present evidence by combing through the curriculum that theology majors somewhere else read/study the same amount of text be my guest. It's not a claim of ultimate superiority. Just a cool aspect of TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_37" class="entry odd" data-likes="22" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-14T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T16:01:00 with 22 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Much Ado About Nothing: On the Disproportion Between the Promise of Alluring TAC Thesis Titles and the Often Ho-Hum 30 Page Term Papers Which Follow Them"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_38" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I could burn all the copies of my thesis, not just the one. I sent out with a very ambitious topic, but produced the most boring paper ever written.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_39" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-14T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T16:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ it wasn't at all boring, just pedantic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_40" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-14T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is acceptable at that age</p>
</li>
<li id="post_41" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're too kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_42" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I felt like it was a failure of nerve and a retreat into scholastic nonsense at the end. But yes, I was only 22.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_43" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I had it to do all over again, I would be solidly #TeamJamesJoyce instead of #TeamThomas. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_44" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a simple false statement of hubris.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_45" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-14T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T16:26:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A Noble Lie: Just Because I Read 3500 Pages of Aristotle Doesn't Mean I Have Anything New to Say About It."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_46" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T16:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What I can write to get hired as a tutor because I have debt and can't get a real job."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_47" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:48:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what I say in the status -- for all the serious flaws, defects, and problems of the place, which I am overly fond of speaking about -- is its trump card. <br />All other aspects aside, it puts the student in direct contact with loads of St. Thomas and Aristotle. To me, that is its intellectual strength, and that for which I am especially grateful, since being in direct contact with both those two is a sine qua non for much else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_48" class="entry even" data-likes="22" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:51:00 with 22 likes</div>
<p class="text">"We wanted our students to go out and change the world. We didn't realize that the world was Santa Paula." -- Marcus Berquist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_49" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-14T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T16:51:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nasty remarks, even for you, Peregrin Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_50" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the former President of one of the St. Johns Colleges told me that he was envious of TAC grads for the way in which they were far more active in society than SJC grads. True story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_51" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To say that no other college comes close to reading Aristotle and Thomas to the extent that TAC does is simply false. There are most certainly several colleges in the USA that come close, and Christendom surpasses it in both quantity and quality. Without the guidance of the Church and its sacred theology, the metaphysical base at TAC is dangerously out of context. I am puzzled why you do not see this. It's sad that TACers have to continually talk themselves up. If the place were on track, this psychological quirk would not have to happen. At least half of what's taught there is theo-narcissism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_52" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Jerkibus Maximus: how hiding your meaning behind latin helps reveal the personality of TAC."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_53" class="entry odd" data-likes="13" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:00:00 with 13 likes</div>
<p class="text">"'Who's that tripping over my bridge?' roared the troll."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_54" class="entry even" data-likes="17" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-14T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:02:00 with 17 likes</div>
<p class="text">"hiding your meaning behind latin" - says "Peregrine Bonaventure."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_55" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(57, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Barbarian, making false claims. Hubris.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_56" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arrogant alum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_57" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-14T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:09:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">This comment thread is almost as good as reading "Lucky Jim".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_58" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-14T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:09:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Take it back, Herreid! Nothing is almost as good as reading "Lucky Jim"!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_59" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-14T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say "as good".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_60" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-14T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:12:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Time for some madrigals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_61" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-14T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As long as there's another tenor to cover for me, I'm good with that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_62" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No sacred theology. No online courses. No plexi-glass backboards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_63" class="entry odd" data-likes="16" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-14T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:17:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">No shrubberies!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_64" class="entry even" data-likes="16" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-14T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:28:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've tried to be patient with you several times, Peregrine, but it actually seems pretty ludicrous to me for you to go on about TACers talking themselves up, hiding behind language, exaggerating, and being arrogant. <br />How about this for an example of caring excessively about TAC's reputation: savagely attacking TAC and most everyone associated with it on close to every FB thread I've ever seen you participate in.<br />And now that I've gone and looked up just what one might mean by "theo-narcissism" I see that this use of language to talk about "at least half of what's taught there" is a fairly incredible exaggeration.<br />I don't think the place is perfect. I think it has some serious difficulties, especially as it loses the leadership of its founders and attempts to continue to grow and sort itself out. Can we just relax and talk somewhat playfully and joyfully about this various and ramshackle attempt that all of us broken human beings (particularly those of us who are united by the Catholic faith, from whatever school) are making to reach our eternal savior?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_65" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No shrubberies? Liam: are you the guy who gave the commencement address last year and didn't mention the Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_66" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-14T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, Liam, at Christendom they teach people to greet the brethren with a holy kiss...I mean, a criterion in hand and the spleen to apply it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_67" class="entry odd" data-likes="14" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-14T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:34:00 with 14 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha. Nope. You're the guy who's misremembering my speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_68" class="entry even" data-likes="15" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-14T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:37:00 with 15 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a tip, Peregrine. Google "liam collins commencement thomas aquinas", then do a page search on his speech for "devotion to the teaching Church". We have a winner! Looks like there is a secret conspiracy among the students to care about the Church, because we already know infallibly that the College doesn't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_69" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's right, O, great apologist, he forgot to mention the second person of the Blessed Trinity. Where's the Faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_70" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And let's never forget the importance of including sacred theology in a curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_71" class="entry odd" data-likes="14" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-14T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:46:00 with 14 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this all part of some East Coast vs West Coast Thomist battle? Better stop before someone gets hurt in a drive-by dissertationing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_72" class="entry even" data-likes="13" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-14T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T17:47:00 with 13 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang, never knew that one had to include every aspect of the Catholic Church in a commencement address to be considered a faithful Catholic. Liam, I don't envy you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_73" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And what about the Catholic Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_74" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine is mistaken:<br />http://www.christendom.edu/academics/reading-list.php<br />Christendom College | Undergraduate Reading List<br />www.christendom.edu<br />ENGL 101: Literature of Western Civilization IThe IliadThe Odyssey Poetics Antig...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_75" class="entry odd" data-likes="21" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:50:00 with 21 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_76" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">peruse the reading list, and stand firm by your claim, and the 8 most hated words in the English language</p>
</li>
<li id="post_77" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Liam was the one who gave the commencement address last year, with but one oblique reference to "teaching" Church, and n'er a reference to Catholic, lest it offend the backers, and no reference to Christ of his Holy Mother, Mary. Not to mention the curriculum which lacks sacred theology. It's the hubris, fellas. The hubris. The wagon-circling and the un-Godly hubris.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_78" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"let's go through the text line by line"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_79" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Peter Halpin" data-date="2014-08-14T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Peter Halpin at 2014-08-14T17:52:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">At USF, I was once assigned a reading from a volume called,"Anti-Hegemonic, Post, Post Marxists Essays". So kiss it, all you Thomist zombies!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_80" class="entry even" data-likes="17" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:54:00 with 17 likes</div>
<p class="text">I heard that at Christendom you can't receive communion unless you swear on a Bible wrapped in the Confederate flag that Abraham Lincoln was an evil man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_81" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-14T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T17:54:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember now Liam coming up to me cackling before giving his speech: "Hah, Chris, guess what, I'm going to purposefully not mention the word Catholic, just because I can, and I don't want to offend the backers!" I then asked who the backers were. He gave me sideways glances before darting up onto the stage. #thingsthatneverhappened</p>
</li>
<li id="post_82" class="entry even" data-likes="13" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:55:00 with 13 likes</div>
<p class="text">I heard at Christendom, you can't give a commencement speech without using "magisterium" 47 times</p>
</li>
<li id="post_83" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Straw man. Is TAC even Catholic? You'd never know it by many of the theses or commencement addresses. They can mean different things to different audiences. It's like code language, but it's really cowardly, and the gutting of sacred theology and the fullness of revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_84" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:57:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone know where Mr. Bonaventure can find a good grinder for his ax?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_85" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-14T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T17:58:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A Flute Player's Madrigal: On the Cowardly Hiding of Anti-Catholic Teachings Behind the Writing of Aristotle"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_86" class="entry even" data-likes="14" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-14T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:58:00 with 14 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I find this all amusing, gentlemen, but I need to log off and work on finding a house to share with other guys who still haven't found a job with their education. I'll try to spend ten or twenty years verifying that they're really Catholic while I'm at it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_87" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liam: did the Dean of Students edit your address for "appropriateness"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_88" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where are you looking Liam Collins?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_89" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-14T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matt: Wichita, KS.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_90" class="entry even" data-likes="12" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-14T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T18:00:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm about to start classes at WSU in aerospace engineering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_91" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-14T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That brain tho.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_92" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would find it troublesome hiring someone who went to a college whose alum seem to collectively boast that no other place comes close to reading the Thomas that they do. That's just messed up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_93" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sound about like what a magisterium-less graduate full of hubris would do, Liam Collins</p>
</li>
<li id="post_94" class="entry even" data-likes="20" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-14T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-14T18:04:00 with 20 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's usually the top question when hiring at most jobs. "How did your college read Thomas Aquinas?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_95" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Mike Potemra" data-date="2014-08-14T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Mike Potemra at 2014-08-14T18:15:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been in love with TAC for many years. I'm thrilled they still put out this list of great senior theses!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_96" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most firms have no problem hiring someone who believes that they went to the most Catholic College in America. Catholics are cool. But TACers, in hiring circles, are seen as believing they are the best Aristotelean-Thomists and that this is the best kind of Catholic. This bizarre falsehood is a disservice on many levels. But we live in a free country and you can behave this way if you wish. Don't say I didn't try to tell you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_97" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:22:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.brainondigital.com/.../habits-highly.../<br />The Habits of Highly Effective Internet Trolls - Brain on Digital<br />www.brainondigital.com<br />Here’s a quick test to find out if you’re an Internet troll: Read the statement ...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_98" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Overall, strong positive associations emerged among online commenting frequency, trolling enjoyment, and troll identity, pointing to a common construct underlying the measures. Both studies revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the Dark Tetrad of personality...<br />http://www.sciencedirect.com/.../pii/S0191886914000324<br />Trolls just want to have fun<br />www.sciencedirect.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_99" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:25:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides. Last year, for instance, we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment sections, so-called Internet trolls (who are frequently anonymous) have a polarizing effect on audiences, leading to politicization, rather than deeper understanding of scientific topics.<br />That’s bad, but it’s nothing compared with what a new psychology paper has to say about the personalities of trolls themselves...<br />http://www.slate.com/.../internet_troll_personality_study...<br />Science Confirms: Internet Trolls Really Are Narcissistic, Psychopathic, and Sadistic<br />www.slate.com<br />In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides....See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, of course, TACers are pre-eminent. That goes without saying. There, are you happy now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-14T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-14T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">don 't you think that's a little harsh, Peterson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-14T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-14T18:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">love the slideshow, btw. thanks for sharing!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_103" class="entry odd" data-likes="12" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-14T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-14T18:34:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, ouch. Just glanced through all comments.Backing away slowly </p>
</li>
<li id="post_104" class="entry even" data-likes="11" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:34:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's rather lenient, all things considered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_105" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:39:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would be open to looking at any evidence that some other institution requires their students, even within a major, to study more than TAC does re the two authors in question. Certainly no other institution requires as much study of the two of ALL their students as TAC does. But this isn't really a big deal except for the trolling.<br />This fact is not directly related to eminence, pre- or otherwise, but I do think it is one of the aspects of TAC, as flawed as it is, that is worth noting and praising. It is a wonderful thing in this day and age to put students in direct contact with that much Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matt, you are free to back up your claim that TAC is generating the best Catholic thinkers and/or simply the best thinkers... But you never seem to able to, despite your amazingly arrogant claims. That's the issue. It's an issue because it bears on Catholic thought. Best regards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_107" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:41:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never claimed that, of course. But I am close to claiming you may suffer from a trolling illness of some kind...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are you claiming, then, Matt? Are you claiming that no other College in America comes close to reading as much Aristotle and Thomas as students do at TAC, and that this is good for a Catholic college? And that this claim is "arrogant"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_109" class="entry odd" data-likes="15" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:03:00 with 15 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you sought help for your obsessive fixation with TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_110" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-14T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-14T19:07:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best Catholic thinkers come from Yale. Just ask Elliot Milco</p>
</li>
<li id="post_111" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(93, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, I went there, and I have no idea who gives the commencement, or what is said. Hell, I can't even remember who gave ours. Does it keep you up at night wondering how to "bring down those arrogant TAC grads"? Do you get tired of beating the same, sad drum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_112" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Sex Week will enter this convo in 3, 2, 1...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_113" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:09:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">sex week</p>
</li>
<li id="post_114" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I heard Elliot Milco thinks that William F. Buckley is the greatest Catholic thinker of our time, so maybe you are right, Kevin Gallagher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_115" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:11:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">#TrolLOLpalooza</p>
</li>
<li id="post_116" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I see what you did there^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, it is eminently -- no -- pre-eminently clear, that TAC produces the biggest jerks in all of Christendom... And if anyone reading this thread has a mind for academia, or Catholic thought, and is unfamiliar with this fraudulent little college, do not be misled by the erudite sounding titles of these seniors' theses. 'Tis nothing but misinformed theological speculation run amok. Send your kids to State College, and teach them how to keep the faith. Lest they graduate and go off into the world and are forced to make an existence by pretending they are the smartest human around the dinner table.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_118" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:16:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">you absolutely OOOOOOOZe charity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_119" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think parents should send their children to Yale, where they will learn humility and grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_120" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:18:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they should send them to Christendom, where Magisterium they can learn magisterium how to think magisterium critically but still be magisterium faithful to the ...... the..... teaching authority of the Church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_121" class="entry odd" data-likes="16" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:19:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">But maybe TAC does produce the biggest jerks in all of Christendom... college.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_122" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_123" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I keed, I keed - I joke with you all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_124" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:20:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a jerk<br />TAC produced me<br />therefore, etc. QED</p>
</li>
<li id="post_125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(68, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T19:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not the one making false claims about academic superiority. That's truly pathetic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_126" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-14T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T19:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, I think if you just go and read the original post again, you might be enlightened as to claims made or, as in this case, claims not made.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The original post reads: "No other college in America requires as much Aristotle and Thomas as TAC... And its fruits reveal your ignorance and yes I am arrogant." <br />In fact, the college requires virtually no sacred theology, and teaches practically nothing Catholic in the entire freshman year. It does not teach Sacred Theology; it does not teach the Faith. Yet, the Faith is the only perfection of Reason. Hence. What we are left with is what Bethea says above, which is a public manifestation of the flaws of a rational animal not educated in the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-14T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's your definition of Sacred Theology?? And how can you claim it doesn't teach the Faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_129" class="entry odd" data-likes="12" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-14T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 32%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T19:39:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I fear I made have fallen for what Matthew was trying to warn regarding...trolling. I immediately regret trying to start a regular conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_130" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine Bonaventure: you have made me defend my alma mater today, which is not something I am in the habit of doing, and for this, I thank you.<br />The status is kinda jokey: "weep for your ignorance/pray for my arrogance" had a nice over the top ring to it. This isn't entirely serious stuff. If it was entirely serious, I would have some serious issues. But that should be obvious.<br />The claim, of course, simply stands as true until you put some evidence where your mouth is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_131" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many people read the senior thesis titles and say things like "Wow, I wish I was reading and studying this stuff." The titles are one of the selling points of TAC. And so is the way in which it puts so much Aristotle and St. Thomas right in front of student faces.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_132" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:43:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, can I call you Scott? I like Scott better. Are you on the spectrum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_133" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-14T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-14T19:44:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Psh whatever you guys are like amateurs at pretentiousness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_134" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well the entire East Coast has us beat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_135" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-14T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-14T19:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">to the mannerism born</p>
</li>
<li id="post_136" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Stouffer" data-date="2014-08-14T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Stouffer at 2014-08-14T19:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">An investigation of unity and complexity...tasty enterprise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_137" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, Scott, I am *not* a rational animal. If you had read your St. Thomas you would know that I'm an "intellectual substance, conjoined to matter"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-14T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and it's not "Bethea" it's Beitia. I know you do it on purpose. Are you sure you're not on the spectrum?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_139" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-14T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-14T19:57:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, welcome to the REAL best FB thread ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_140" class="entry even" data-likes="14" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-14T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-14T19:57:00 with 14 likes</div>
<p class="text"><munches popcorn></p>
</li>
<li id="post_141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I hope you do not truly believe that you have defended your college, especially when you begin up top with such a typically offensive remark. You have not defended your college. But you have helped shed light on it. TAC was founded by a group of extremely arrogant academics, who were reacting to a socio-sacred phenomenon which occured in the 1960s and 70s; and in their arrogrance, they over-reacted. The proposal of TAC, as a result, has no basis in reality today. Due to this hubris reactionism, TAC alum have had little impact on the lifestream of conservative social thought in America, because it is reactionary and defensive. TAC is simply unable to defend its claim that it offers the world a truly Catholic liberal education, because no such thing exists, as the College proposes. This is an issue, because of TAC's claim to have an association with Catholicism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_142" class="entry even" data-likes="15" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-14T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T20:56:00 with 15 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c<br />Play Video<br />Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_143" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-08-14T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-08-14T21:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My lord what a huge class. (A comment that really only makes serious sense to members of the tribe.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_144" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jacob Alexander" data-date="2014-08-14T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jacob Alexander at 2014-08-14T21:11:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">My goodness what an attractive class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T21:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*Old TAC'er interjects* ... "In MY day ..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_146" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-14T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-14T21:36:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love the habit of publishing the senior theses' titles. Congrats to the class of '14. <br />Funny thing: My title was *ahem* edited for the newsletter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_147" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-14T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-14T22:06:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Duda......don't leave a gal hanging.....do share.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_148" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew Starr" data-date="2014-08-14T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Starr at 2014-08-14T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beckwith Three words: Wyoming Catholic College</p>
</li>
<li id="post_149" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-14T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T22:45:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">can anyone tell me the percentage of TAC alumni that enter the religious life? Must be pretty low since it entirely neglects the faith. Does anyone also know the number of conversions that take place during the student's time at TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T22:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^satire?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_151" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-14T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:45:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Peregrine-- you can think what you want about TAC, and we all know the place isn't perfect. It's nothing but amusing, though, to hear Dr MacArthur and Mr Berquist described as "extremely arrogant"! Though I am, of course, being a TAC grad myself, so arrogant I can't see how arrogant all the other alum are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_152" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-14T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We may be totally non-Catholic, but at least we can recognize satire when we see it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_153" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-14T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-14T22:47:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really like it how all the people who hold up Christendom as superior to TAC on these Facebook threads have about as much tact as Attila the Hun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_154" class="entry even" data-likes="12" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-14T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:48:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's Attila the Hun? I went to TAC so I have zero knowledge of history </p>
</li>
<li id="post_155" class="entry odd" data-likes="13" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-14T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-14T22:49:00 with 13 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not quite sure, I've seen him mentioned in P.G. Wodehouse's stories. Perhaps he's some fictional bad guy like Darth Vader.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-14T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blah-blah-blah... It's funny how the Founding Fathers of America realized the importance of the citizenry being able to live under a Constitution that could be Amended. They realized their human weakness; but the founders of a College set their charter in stone because they presumed themselves to be perfect. Needless to say, the graduates of TAC are doing an excellent job of cementing its reputation of being a hot bed of arrogant jerks who argue like women, and women who argue like men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_157" class="entry odd" data-likes="11" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-14T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:55:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I just don't understand is the point of that whole last sentence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_158" class="entry even" data-likes="16" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-14T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-14T22:56:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews You say "argue like a woman" as if it were a bad thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_159" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-14T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T22:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pretty sure I've never heard the founders say that they thought what they had done was perfect. In fact I had heard some regrets and changes and disappointments. Were they proud with what they had done, yes! Does that mean they thought it was the perfect and the climax of all life, no!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_160" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-14T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're not doing your Alma Mater's reputation any favors yourself....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_161" class="entry odd" data-likes="15" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-14T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-14T22:57:00 with 15 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being a TACer, I learned the important things, like how to spell "Wodehouse", which alcoholic beverages to drink, how to get back into the dorms after curfew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_162" class="entry even" data-likes="19" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-14T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T23:00:00 with 19 likes</div>
<p class="text">look, I'm willing to grant that McArthur, Berquist, and Neumayr were incredibly brazen. I'm not sure that TAC did deliver to me on all, or even a lot of what I took it to be promising. And I think it is possible there to come away confused about what is Catholicism and what is pagan philosophy, and where the two meet.<br />But it was and is a wonderful place, full of kind, prayerful people, who love Jesus Christ. I learned valuable things there, struggled with real questions there, and I am grateful to the founders and to everyone else who has made it to be. <br />And I just can't see any reason for all of us, who do share the Mass, the Sacraments, allegiance to Rome, belief that Christ was God and that his teachings, as contained in both Scripture and tradition, will guide us to heaven, to be anything but friends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_163" class="entry odd" data-likes="11" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-14T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T23:03:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">How to get back into dorms after curfew: LIFE SKILLZ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_164" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-14T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-14T23:10:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Soul face</p>
</li>
<li id="post_165" class="entry odd" data-likes="17" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-14T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-14T23:11:00 with 17 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thank you for these threads...much too long and pointless to get involved now, at least gives a glimpse of people with whom I will not be interacting with in the future And I get consolation from FB, "We're sorry that you've had this experience." So am I.<br />TAC is not perfect, of course not. Nor is it for everyone. Nor is it the best way for each individual to be educated. But it is the best school for many of us. And it certainly is not inferior to any in its "Catholicity". The insinuation that somehow it is anti-theology, or weak on the faith is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard levelled against it.<br />I originally wrote more, but why? I don't see a productive discussion here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_166" class="entry even" data-likes="15" data-name="Benjamin Block" data-date="2014-08-14T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Benjamin Block at 2014-08-14T23:14:00 with 15 likes</div>
<p class="text">So...just speaking as a non-TAC grad here, I want to say that I think TAC is a fantastic institution, which has produced some really wonderful people (for the record, I'd say the same for WCC or for Christendom). Yes, in some rare instances, I have met TACers who are not so nice, but in those cases, I would blame their own personal choices rather than their teachers or the institution--just as I sincerely hope that nobody thinks ill of my own alma maters simply because of my own personal defects. Ignore the trolls, and keep up the good work, in humility and charity...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_167" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-14T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-14T23:40:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember jake gutierrez's thesis was called "Do Angels Move the Planets" but when they posted the defense schedule, it said "angles" instead of "angels". It was a head-scratcher either way....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_168" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-14T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-14T23:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Am I the only one who reads these every year and thinks that a good number of them are just a little over the top? I mean, God bless TAC and all who dwell there, but come on! It is hard to read a lot of these with a straight face. I still think TAC is the best college ever, but the thesis titles are so often... silly. (Bracing for backlash)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_169" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-14T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-14T23:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whoa.... starting to read the comments now.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_170" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-14T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T23:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Part of the fun was making silly titles </p>
</li>
<li id="post_171" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-15T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kind of regretting being so critical of TAC thesis titles after reading all these comments. I feel like I've just been through a war and I just want some peace. So I'll amend my statement above to say that I understand why TAC thesis titles can sound so convoluted- it's weighty and abstract stuff we wrestle with there. Most other institutions deal with much more concrete subject matter and it's easier to come up with names for papers you write there. So, no offense meant to the class of 2014 or any other grads.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_172" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-15T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, I had the hardest time coming up with a title I liked, but I didn't spend too much time on that problem because my thesis itself was very unsatisfactory so who gives a crap about he title? I think I ended up with "In Virtue of What do We Call Love of God 'Love'?" I still wince thinking about how badly I botched that topic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_173" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-15T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T00:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Most other institutions deal with much more concrete subject matter" Ludicrous titles for papers are a plague of all academia, Claire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_174" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-15T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just thinking about my sister's recent microbiology PhD dissertation at Carnegie Mellon. There was nothing whimsical or wistful or lilting or far-reaching or punny in her title. I'm not even sure it was technically English, but it sounded quite sciency and straightforward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-15T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T00:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, right. Take a gander at some humanities dissertation titles (or rather, don't, just take my word for it that they are either straightforwardly pedantic and jargony in a silly way, or just plain silly).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_176" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Grumbine" data-date="2014-08-15T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T00:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Bonaventure - while I retain some small admiration for your sheer stubbornness in the cry of 'hubris', your comments have now plunged clearly into bare insult, and do your position no credit. <br />I realize that this is the internet and all that, but I would wager that your Christian vocabulary + trollish behavior on this thread tend to engender a strong sense of disgust in the average reader. <br />At the very least, when you throw out phrases like, "I will pray for you, my brother in Christ"... well, let's just rip a line here, and say that I do not think it means what you think it means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_177" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-15T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T00:45:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just popped back in after spending a few hours on the planet Earth. What a comment thread! If anyone considering attending TAC or Christendom stumbles across this post, I'm pretty sure Steubenville can expect an application. You guys are nuts!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_178" class="entry even" data-likes="12" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-15T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:46:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">that actually is how steubenville gets all its applicants</p>
</li>
<li id="post_179" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-15T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T00:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I thought Steubenville was the only one of these three where people started speaking in tongues...now I'm confused."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_180" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Patrick Laurence" data-date="2014-08-15T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Patrick Laurence at 2014-08-15T00:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man, if you've drawn Michael Grumbine out of the woodwork, you *know* you have stepped over the line.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Timothy Halpin" data-date="2014-08-15T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Halpin at 2014-08-15T02:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow! I'm glad I didn't go to college.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_182" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-15T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-15T02:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie - mine was quite edited as well!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_183" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-15T02:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-15T02:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading this thread was the most fun I've had in a long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-08-15T06:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-08-15T06:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just finished teaching my first day of classes this year. This comment thread was perfect Friday fodder for a gin and tonic! Thanks, everyone - with a special shout out to Peregrine and Matthew! . . . still chuckling . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_185" class="entry odd" data-likes="23" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-15T08:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-15T08:38:00 with 23 likes</div>
<p class="text">Today being the Solemnity of the Assumption and all, I give thanks to God for my Blessed Mother, who gave me divine life, but also for my earthly mother who gave me natural life, and for TAC, my mother in the in the life of the mind. Perhaps I shall write a treatise in the spirit of St Louis de Monfort on "True Devotion to TAC." So for example I might say: <br />«These great souls filled with grace and zeal will be oppose the enemies of God who are raging on all sides. They will be exceptionally devoted to the TAC, and illumined by her light... With one hand they will give battle, overthrowing and crushing Platonists, Newtonians, Molinists, and Thomists of a more lax observance... With the other hand they will build a stronghold of true philosophy, namely TAC.... By word and example they will draw all men to a true devotion to her and though this will make many enemies... This seems to have been foretold by Psalm 58: "The Lord will reign in Jacob and all the ends of the earth. They will be converted towards evening and they will be as hungry as dogs and they will go around the city to find something to eat." This city around which men will roam at the end of the world seeking true Aristotelianism and the appeasement of the hunger they have for Thomism of the strict observance is Thomas Aquinas College, which is called "The City of Thomists"»<br />Except of course I would never actually say anything like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T09:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The guys who started TAC were extreme intransigents on a wide range of false opinion, from the question of unalienable rights to the relationship between Faith and reason, to the relationship between St. Thomas and the Church, to the human person, to the nature of the human will and the imagination, and so much more. TAC is a backwater. An idolatry. Because of its arrogance, which it holds as a virtue, and because of its incomplete presentation of the Faith, it leads to a truncated exercise of reason, and its students are often grossly offensive. <br />I thank Holy Mother the Church and Her Sacraments for my spiritual and academic formation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_187" class="entry odd" data-likes="12" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-15T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-15T09:40:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this TAC grad.' #magesterium #humblerthanthou</p>
</li>
<li id="post_188" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-15T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-15T09:46:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone have a recording of the mid-day report in which Dirk Kennedy or Michael D Byrne or someone called up the Christendom admissions office?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_189" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T09:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Holy Mother the Church might not want your thanks for your "academic" formation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_190" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-15T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:15:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still don't get this incomplete presentation of the faith thing. Church fathers, doctors, scripture, Mass 4x a day, confession before and after each mass, daily Eucharist Adoration, 2 League of Mary Praesedium, evening consecrations, daily Rosary, a Jesuit and. Dominican on campus at the same time! Again not to mention the religious that have come out of TAC (percentage wise and just even respected around the globe wise). And all those things are the daily/weekly organized Faith formation opportunities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_191" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T10:16:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">^stop trying to be reasonable. It just shows your arrogance^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bethea, you do not have the authority to make such "judgements" -- which only underscore the ill-formation of your alma mater, as do your arrogant remarks which are not arguments. On the issue of Faith, TAC does not instruct Sacred Theology in its fullness, but under a guise not only that it does, but does so in a pre-eminent manner. Many Catholic institutions participate in Mass, but without such false claims. I hope you can see how this answers your question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_193" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:27:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't believe this is still going on... just commenting so I can get updates...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is still going on because TAC is unable to defend the "principles" on which it was founded.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-15T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does it mean to instruct Sacred Theology in it's fullness?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_196" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-15T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-15T10:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews you do not have the authority to make such "judgements"..........your arrogant remarks which are not arguments.<br />**********************************************************************<br />Self awareness is your friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Instructing Sacred Theology in its fullness means to instruct Sacred Theology in the context of the fullness of divinely revealed truths, and not just a partial set thereof, and not principally natural theology under the guise that this is the fullness of Sacred Theology or the pedagogical basis of what and how the Church teaches.<br />Bekah, I am not the one making the false, misleading and arrogant claims that TAC and its apologists are making, so your comment is on the level of kindergarten argumentation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_198" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-15T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So practically speaking what does that look like? Not A partial set, so does that mean all of the divine revelations of Christ through the ages?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_199" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me preface this by saying that I think Christendom is a good school and if I had children I would by no means argue them out of attending there if they wanted to go. (you guys have a much better library, too) But if we are discussing mistaken founding principles, how do you defend the Christendom administration's open discouragement of non-Christian and Protestant applicants? I am curious because that policy seems to me to be mistaken in the extreme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_200" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-15T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith perfecting reason...aside from being disillusioned to think that that was always the emphasis I also thought that's what made us not go crazy and all become depressed sophomore year with Augustine and Predestination! (Well that and the exercise of Faith through the Sacraments etc)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_201" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am also curious as to whether "teaching Sacred Theology in its fullness" as you have described it something which is, er, actually possible. I think TAC's emphasis on natural philosophy is just that--an emphasis, which has its own merits. It prepares TACers better than some other schools to engage with others on certain issues, and it provides a good foundation for further study in theology. The Christendom emphasis on Church history also has its own benefits and prepares them better than TACers to engage with others on mistaken notions they might jave on Church history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It means presenting the relationship between Faith and reason in proper manner and context, so that sacred or divine revelation and Faith, in our academic formation as Catholics, is the perfection of reason; not the other way around. Faith is the perfection of reason. The science of Faith is sacred theology. The content of sacred theology is revelation, in the deposit of the Faith... in what the Church teaches, in its dogma and in Scripture. So this is the shape of Catholic education. Faith perfecting reason. TAC does not go this way. It does the opposite. Maybe not in the sacramental life of the students, but certainly in the curriculum. It lays out a basis of natural theology, which is a rational metaphysics, as the perfection of Faith.<br />And I was not aware of this kind of discrimination at Christendom College. I know Protestant and Evangelical Christians who have gone there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*have</p>
</li>
<li id="post_204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, the Church has been teaching all things relating to Faith and Reason in this way for centuries. Then, in the 1960s and 1970s, a few guys got together and over-reacted to some bad things that were going on in the world, and this was the birth of TAC, where they presume that supernatural Faith can be perfected by reason and natural theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_205" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am very glad to hear that, when I went to my admissions interview in 2006 I was informed that they were only looking for Catholic applicants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not disbelieve you, and I am sorry to hear that. Perhaps you were being interviewed by a bad apple?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The conversation did seem a little strange to me... it was the last straw in my decision not to even apply, despite the very tempting library.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_208" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-15T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-15T11:06:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Peregrine", do you realize that you are like someone giving a book review of a book they didn't read? And that someone who has read the book can tell you didn't read it? That's what these threads with you are always like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, that is a tempting library.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_210" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">again with the "Bethea". who the hell is that person? see, I use my REAL name, so I would appreciate the consideration to SPELL it correctly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dominique, no I did not realize that, but thank you for pointing that out. The thing is, I did read the book, and I have seen the movie. And this is not a book or a movie. TAC inverts the relationship between Faith and Reason and produces the opposite of intellectual humility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_212" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:09:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think "Reason perfecting Faith" is the correct way to view the TAC venture, but rather "Reason illuminating and supporting Faith."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_213" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:10:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">shhhh, you'll let him in on our gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Nina, that is a subtle nuance, but the thing is, Faith perfects reason. Reason does not illuminate the Faith or support the Faith. Faith is reasonable, and Faith perfects reason.<br />And I always thought Bethea was illuminati. TAC gives that impression.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_215" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:12:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, will you just spell it right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_216" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I invite you to take a good look at past years of TAC thesis titles besides this, and you will see that there are a number of students who have written on this exact topic. I can think of at least one in my own class (2010) and I am sure there have been others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_217" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-15T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-15T11:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't all of Scripture divine revelation? It's such a shame that TAC never has you read the Bib...oh wait, all of Freshman theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">without the magisterium however. (I beat Scott to the punch)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, the problem is the TAC curriculum; it is not the value of the theses written. If a curriculum is not set up formally so that Faith perfects reason, then what is the quality of reason that "illumines" the Faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_220" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-15T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T11:15:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, after reading your comments here, I have six friends who have decided to convert to Catholicism and immediately apply to Christendom. You are a wonderful ambassador for the faith. Now, kindly step away from the keyboard and answer your door. Do whatever the nice men in the white jackets tell you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_221" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-15T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-15T11:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really? I thought you only read the first couple chapters? If you read he whole book you will have a legitimate basis for a review. You don't have to like the book after reading the whole thing, but at least you'd know what you're talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_222" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-15T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-15T11:18:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's not do the TAC vs. Cdom thing!! They can both stand on their own merits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_223" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am thinking primarily of Newman's Development of Christian Doctrine when I speak of reason "illuminating"-- that is, we can say there has been a development of doctrine and further understanding of the Faith without saying that the Faith has altered or changed. In the same way, TAC's emphasis on natural theology does not mean that the supernatural effects of grace have been somehow negated or argued against. did that make sense as an analogy? I am not sure I am saying it quite right...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_224" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't bother. this drum-beating is two years old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christopher, Scripture is only part of revelation. Again, it is context. <br />Aaron, you demonstrate quite well that TAC is unable to defend the "principles" on which its curriculum was founded.<br />Dominique, again you are not addressing the central issue here, which is that TAC was founded by over-reactionaries who established a curriculum which does not place Faith and Reason in proper context, and this has resulted in a character of hubris reasoning in its students, instead of students informed by Faith which has perfected their reason.<br />It is clear that TAC is unable to address this central issue, and I rest my case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_226" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:21:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">endless repetition isn't "resting" Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_227" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-15T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I didn't go to TAC, smart guy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_228" class="entry even" data-likes="11" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:22:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's more of a Nietzschean "eternal return of the same"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bethea, resting is resting. TAC is unable to account for itself, because it's curriculum is ill-founded, on this central issue of the relationship between Faith and Reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off to do an errand, have fun kids...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_231" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-15T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T11:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I were one of those fundamentalists who hates the Catholic Church and believes the Pope is the Antichrist, and someone told me to design a bot that would pose as a Catholic in order to discredit the Church, I would design something very similar to Peregrine Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">His name is Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_233" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott-bot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_234" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-15T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T11:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh Nina! You just added another reading that I had forgotten about!! (Must be because it got lost in seminar!) Does it count that I had a Dominican priest co-lead my already awesome senior Theology classes on the Sacraments? Does that make the context better?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry you guys aren't able to mount a credible defense of the curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_236" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry you can't spell. Or be coherent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_237" class="entry odd" data-likes="17" data-name="Alex Lessard" data-date="2014-08-15T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Alex Lessard at 2014-08-15T11:38:00 with 17 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trolls aside, through the unsurpassed curriculum and excellents tutors at TAC, our daughter (in the 2014 list) was able to explore the relationship between science & theology in a more profound way than I saw in many years of grad school in theology at a major Catholic university. I don't know of any other place that builds that cultivated freedom of thought into its program. Certainly not at the other schools mentioned here, despite their other merits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Ursi Engebretsen" data-date="2014-08-15T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ursi Engebretsen at 2014-08-15T11:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow...ouch...a lot of these comments are real encouraging to someone who's going back to TAC in a week to start Junior year... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really, Mr. Bethea?<br />I think the concern is very, very coherent. 1) the curriculum at TAC does not give pre-eminence of place to the fullness of faith and sacred theology, but gives this place to natural theology; 2) this leads to intellectual hubris, and an imperfection of reason, (as is demonstrated by many of your comments).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_240" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is a time for argument, and a time for the club. the time for argument has long passed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a dodge, Bethea. TAC has never answered this concern, because the concern is well-founded, and TAC is off-base.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_242" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-15T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-15T11:47:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">"By its own essential character, theology completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free man, for it has in a pre-eminent way that which is desired in all of them. Liberal education undertaken by Christians and ordered to theology turns out to be liberal education in its fullness."<br />--Founding Document of Thomas Aquinas College</p>
</li>
<li id="post_243" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:48:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">^as translated from hieroglyphics^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Adrw Lng, the passage you cite is lip service. The use the word "theology" in the passage you cite effectively translates into "natural theology" in the TAC curriculum. Moreover, at no point in its curriculum, does TAC actually teach its students what Catholic theology really means or is, hence it does it accurately teach what the relationship between faith and reason is. This is manifestly obvious.<br />Bethea, you are a thug.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_245" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a thug that can spell, Mr. Weinberg</p>
</li>
<li id="post_246" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">4-0-0 S C T A C (you'll have to imagine the gang signs) Matthew J. Peterson can demonstrate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup, you're a thug.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_248" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm glad we both agree on that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_249" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(he says to the thread hijacking rattling drum)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, TAC is not able to address the concern in its curriculum. It hides its head in the sand. The concern is that it misrepresents Catholic theology, which undercuts the principle of Faith perfecting reason, and supports intellectual hubris.<br />Witness Beithea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Closer. don't you have some health and human servicing to do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thug.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_253" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">like most of the rest of this, just because you say it, doesn't make it true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What makes it true is a reference to clubbing as opposed to simply addressing a valid concern.<br />Again, the concern is that the TAC curriculum does not portray Sacred Theology correctly, but replaces it with natural theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_255" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have my gang-banging minions to respond to your "concerns". And if you had read your Aristotle, you'd recognize the reference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your comment is ridiculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_257" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're just now figuring that out?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-15T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, this is really a joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_259" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:21:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is. Glad you caught on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Christopher Sebastian" data-date="2014-08-15T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-15T12:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FIN?<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_261" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-15T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T12:47:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll troll troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_262" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-15T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-15T13:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh my.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_263" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-15T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T13:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"No longer receive notifications about Matthew J. Peterson's link" - check!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_264" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-15T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:16:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">" it's more of a Nietzschean "eternal return of the same"<br />Or Heraclitus, "The dog returns to it's own vomit"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_265" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Grumbine" data-date="2014-08-15T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T13:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your inference, as usual, is so right, Patrick - I should've stayed in the shadows despite the marginally clever troll. <br />'Marginally' conceded only because I'm now weighing the amusing possibility that dear Scotty truly is blind to his own nature on this thread.<br />My bad. Well really, it's Peterson's bad, but who can blame him? The lack of a properly enlightened background in authentic Sacred Theology has clearly had a strange, softening effect on his mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_266" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-15T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-15T13:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"But we Catholics must pray with each other and other Christians. Pray that the Lord gift us unity! Unity among ourselves! How will we ever have unity among Christians if we are not capable of having it among us Catholics, in the family, how many families fight and split up? Seek unity, unity builds the Church and comes from Jesus Christ. He sends us the Holy Spirit to build unity!" Pope Francis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_267" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-15T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-15T13:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peace, friends. Let's not let a little online squabble divide us. Our lady of the Assumption, queen of peace, love and humility, pray for us!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_268" class="entry even" data-likes="18" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-15T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:24:00 with 18 likes</div>
<p class="text">Erik Bootsma's photo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_269" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Grumbine" data-date="2014-08-15T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T13:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Win. ^^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_270" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Grumbine" data-date="2014-08-15T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And well put, Alex.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_271" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-15T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Erik Bootsma's photo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_272" class="entry even" data-likes="26" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-15T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-15T13:34:00 with 26 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think I've ever seen this many TACers agree on anything. <br />It's kind of like how humanity always unites in those movies where the aliens invade.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_273" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-15T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T13:35:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just look for any good excuse to flash TAC gang signs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_274" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-15T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I flash that every time I go to the in law's house. Three at Christendom now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_275" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-15T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-15T13:39:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">you know a conversation about the philosophical particularities of the founders (often unspoken at TAC- you had to poke around to find out sometimes, or just pay extremely close attention), and possible tendencies to intransigence regarding those, would really be worth having, but untrolled</p>
</li>
<li id="post_276" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-15T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-15T13:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">a conversation about the ratio studiorum of the program, and the role of sacred theology therein, would also be worth having (again, only if untroubled)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_277" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-15T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-15T13:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://warrencountyreport.com/.../south_river_and_the... Is trolling a habit, a knack, an art, or a skill?<br />Warren County Report: South River and the Hatch Act<br />warrencountyreport.com<br />« Enchanted Dragon Mirror Maze a roaring good time | Main | ‘Oh, people will come, people will most definitely come’ »</p>
</li>
<li id="post_278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-15T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Inigo had the last word apparently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_279" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-15T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T14:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to have a discussion with someone about the constitution of the curriculum, for example, I am curious as to whether anyone else thinks the Politics should be read in seminar instead of tutorial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_280" class="entry even" data-likes="14" data-name="Dominic Bolin" data-date="2014-08-15T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominic Bolin at 2014-08-15T15:03:00 with 14 likes</div>
<p class="text">Personally, I think Peregrine Bonaventure, Scott Weinburg, Jonathan Scott, or whatever his real name may be, might have a good point. Unfortunately, it's so buried under the way he expresses it, almost no one will ever see it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Ken Masugi" data-date="2014-08-15T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ken Masugi at 2014-08-15T19:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would Aristotle sky-dive? Who do you say I am?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_282" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Tuttle" data-date="2014-08-15T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Tuttle at 2014-08-15T22:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, the sky-diving Aristotle thesis sounds great! "Boady, this is your F#@%ing wake up call, man. I am a PHILOSOPHER!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_283" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-16T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-16T02:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For everyone's next tattoo.<br />John Kunz's photo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_284" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-16T04:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-16T04:43:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Despite JA Escalante's scoffing above (as in way above), some TAC theses have been really good, more than fulfilling the promise of their titles. I would like to edit a volume of some of the best. Can everyone nominate some of their favorites? I'll go first (not using the titles, which I can't remember):<br />Peter Kay on Shakespeare's political thought,<br />Joseph Bolin on Vocation,<br />Rachel Berquist on the Filioque,<br />Another Berquist girl on the politics of medieval Spain,<br />Joe Zepeda on the Song of Songs,<br />Henry Zepeda on Cartesian Geometry,<br />Joe Kenny on "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"<br />Catherine Joliat Feil on Aristotle's Politics,<br />Catherine Ryland on hospitality,<br />David Isaac on music,<br />and (without false modesty) Pater Edmund on monarchy... lots more that I'll add when I think of them...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_285" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Peter Halpin" data-date="2014-08-16T05:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Peter Halpin at 2014-08-16T05:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Closing time...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_286" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-16T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-16T12:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund: Jeff Froula on the certainty of hope, and Katie Duda on Dante's Paradiso as an icon. I imagine your father's was pretty good! What did he write on?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_287" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-16T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-16T12:49:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael D. Byrne's authoritative treatise on Hegel, and let's have a moment of silence for the thesis-that-never-was, Joe Cheney's rejected thesis, De Urinatione.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_288" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-16T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-16T13:31:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joe, my father wrote on Balthasar's aesthetics, but I'm afraid I haven't read his thesis. My mother tells me that it was "too long."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_289" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-16T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-16T13:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nathan Ciarleglio's "the idea of limit in the Histories of Herodotus"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_290" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-16T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-16T13:47:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unrelated fact about my father: his high-school senior Matura thing was "The poetry of Hölderlin, Rilke and Trakl in the literary criticism of Hans Urs von Balthasar and Romano Guardini."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_291" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-16T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-16T14:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There was one on Dante's De Monarchia, but I can't recall who wrote it. And Burke's on how Pater Edmond is wrong was OK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_292" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-16T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-16T14:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we still get old theses from TAC? Has anyone done that lately?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-16T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-16T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Email Mark Kretchmer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_294" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Angela Lessard" data-date="2014-08-16T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Angela Lessard at 2014-08-16T15:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's keep going, we can't quit before getting to a nice perfect number 300, can we?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_295" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Thomas Quackenbush" data-date="2014-08-16T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-16T17:08:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Elizabeth Quackenbush Brideshead thesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_296" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-16T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-16T19:28:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I accidentally liked a dozen comments signed in as my husband. Friend me, Peterson! I was dangerously close to missing this thread entirely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nick Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-16T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nick Zepeda at 2014-08-16T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nerdfest!! Ha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_298" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-16T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-16T20:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I forgot about Elizabeth Quack's thesis - really excellent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-16T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-16T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just can't resist....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-16T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-16T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being the 300th comment! Oh ya!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-16T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-16T23:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do I love reading these titles every year?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Angela Lessard" data-date="2014-08-17T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Angela Lessard at 2014-08-17T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joe, do you get these sent to you, or did you have a personal connection to these?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_303" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-17T02:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-17T02:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a personal connection to all except Miss Quackenbush's, which her esteemed father linked on facebook.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_304" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-17T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-17T03:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And here it is: https://docs.google.com/.../0BxhNFgNx8xzUUHJlazdC.../edit...<br />Brideshead Thesis.pdf - Google Drive<br />docs.google.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_305" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-17T04:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-17T04:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Roy Axel Coats on the division of the fine arts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_306" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-17T05:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-17T05:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peter Knuffke on transcendentals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_307" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-17T05:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-17T05:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr. McArthur once told me that the flourishing of a liberal education requires that we esteem each man our better, as Paul said, and not be puffed up. Keeping that in mind, I will say I wrote a Dante thesis out of which some people got a pretty decent kick.<br />"I Saw The Scattered Elements Unite": Justice, Mercy and Order in the Divine Comedy.<br />I went into it hoping to get TACers more interested in Dante, and partly as a result of this the school is now stocking Tony Esolen's radiantly awesome translation in the bookstore, so I consider it a personal success.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-17T05:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-17T05:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, on the subject of Brideshead. and in no way diminishing Elizabeth Quackenbush's thesis for which she is so rightly praised, there is also Pat Dolan's wonderful exploration of the motif of the pastoral poetry tradition in Brideshead. I have a paper copy and I reread it when I want to be reminded that my class is really smart and stuff. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_309" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-17T07:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-17T07:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom Short on torture (the first draft, not the final version after Mr. Goyette persuaded him to water down the main argument).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_310" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-17T07:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-17T07:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh snap, I remember that one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-17T08:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-17T08:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the more interesting in light of Capt Short's profession.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_312" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-17T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-17T09:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one should forget Alex Wiseman's brilliant thesis on Kepler.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_313" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-17T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-17T09:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I may be speaking to soon, but I think the troll is gone. I have encountered this one before (though I think under a different name). Joe Zepeda is spot on. Do not feed him. There is no possible dialogue, no possible point of discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_314" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-17T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-17T10:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and for good measure:<br />TAC is the best and I am the best!!! <br />USA! USA! USA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Margaret Grimm" data-date="2014-08-17T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Margaret Grimm at 2014-08-17T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blackwell Joe , do you have a copy of yours online? I read some of it and was frankly blown away. But then, you've long demonstrated an uncanny ability for shedding new light on old ideas starting with your observation-at the age of 4- that one can't be and not be a rotten egg at the same time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_316" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-17T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-17T10:42:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">"There Are But Three Novels: How Reading Authors Other Than Waugh, O'Connor, and Undset Marks One as Insufficiently Catholic."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_317" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-17T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-17T12:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looking up from reading this thread all the way to the end was, for a moment, like staring at an alien world. I don't remember the last time I was this disoriented. Madness. <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFCM6TZgTMI<br />Play Video<br />Its a MADHOUSE! (Planet of the Apes, 1968) - Edited<br />Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_318" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-17T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T13:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kevin Kasson wrote a pretty cool one. And I personally learned a lot from Margaret Ryland's. Michael Masteller's was huge as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_319" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-17T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T13:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and mine was, well, at least controversial enough to draw over 80 people to my defense, according to a few people who tried to count.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_320" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-17T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-17T13:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">my defense was standing room only, but the thesis was crap and the defense worse</p>
</li>
<li id="post_321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-17T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha. My defense was a bit of a letdown as well. But I reread the thesis for the first time a few months ago, and I still agree with it pretty strongly at least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_322" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-17T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T14:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What was the thesis of your thesis, Liam? Also, I've heard the tutors were quite impressed with Louise Milton's thesis on Goethe's Faust.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_323" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-17T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-17T14:41:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok wait - when did the love fest happen? Is the bickering done???<br />Surprised no one has brought up Tim Furlan's dissertation... In our time, that was the event of all events... I had over standing room only at mine, but his filled most of the hallway in the entire classroom building... And it was amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_324" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-17T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T14:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Philip D. Knuffke's thesis on imagination as the cause of error and David Freer's thesis on predestination were quite good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_325" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-17T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-17T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mary Colette Masteller's on Anna Karenina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_326" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Róisín Grimm" data-date="2014-08-17T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Róisín Grimm at 2014-08-17T15:59:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't enjoyed a thread this much in a very, very long time. Thank you all. And I have to say, I think the current prez of Cdom (whom I'm fortunate to refer to, viz a viz my marriage, as "Uncle Tim") would be mortified to find that our friendly neighborhood troll associates so closely with that otherwise fine institution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_327" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-17T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T16:29:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, here's the precis:<br />Christ says: “my Father is at work until now, so I am at work.”<br />This thesis is fundamentally an endeavor to be fully open to God's ongoing work in the world, a work which occurs above all in and through the human race.<br />It is revealed to the Christian and seen with increasing clarity by the scientist that the world around us is not unchanging and eternal, but fundamentally historical. Historical development occurs in many ways, including a development of the cosmos's awareness of itself in man. This development is intelligible to the Christian in it's guidance by, and orientation towards, God. The Christian knows that the created universe is a sign of God, and that God is at work in the perfection of this sign.<br />These insights, among other things, enable one to fully embrace the pressingly apparent fact that science has progressed in deeply meaningful ways in the course of its history, most noticeably in the phenomenal insights had by empirical science in the last several hundred years. These developments are not simply the inconsequential details following from eternal, divine principles; they are wonderful insights into the makings of a universe in which God continues to be intimately present, and for the sake of which the general laws of science exist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-17T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm always slightly confused when people talk about the world around us being fundamentally historical. Is that to say you cannot understand the kinds of things you find in it without studying its history? Or is it to say that the easiest access we have to those things is through history, or is it merely a claim about understanding human society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_329" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-17T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-17T18:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aletheia Herreid Née Price wrote one on Beauty and Art that was amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_330" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-17T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-17T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward , are you trying to start another discussion within this crazy place? This is when an administrator of a discussion forum would start a new thread. Then again... We probably would have all be kicked off the site by now too!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_331" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-17T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha, yeah, I do get the feeling that Edward probably has a response to any of the three options which he just proposed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_332" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-17T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(197, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T19:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which I would be happy to hear, but I'm going to pick my poison after dashing off to dinner right now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-17T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T21:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I think I'm alright with the last of the three Lauren, shh, I've been working hard to adopt a new, more attentive, image.<br />EDIT: perhaps this conversation should end here, we have exactly 333 comments ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_334" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Edmund T. Dean" data-date="2014-08-17T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-17T21:50:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I learned all the pickup lines and skipped the Thomism. Then I went to seminary. I MAY HAVE DONE THIS WRONG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A good Catholic college provides students with a curriculum that helps them develop a theological habit of spirit. A theological habit of spirit supports the reasonability of devotion. This habit always begins with intellectual assent to sacred truths, revealed, which cannot be known with reason. The theological habit of spirit seeks understanding. It does not begin with natural truths or proofs and, if it is excluded, undercuts the role of Faith to perfect reason. It also undercut theological speculation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_336" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T16:11:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Dr. Ronald McArthur, the first president of Thomas Aquinas College in California passed away on the morning of October 17, 2013. Like Christendom’s founder, Dr. Warren Carroll, McArthur was a pioneer in the renewal of faithful Catholic higher education in America. McArthur was awarded Christendom College’s Pro Deo et Patria Medal for Distinguished Service to Church and Nation in 2007 during Christendom’s 30th Anniversary Convocation.<br />'He was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are doing here,' Christendom College president Dr. Timothy O’Donnell said. 'He has gone on to his eternal reward and we ask that you please pray for the repose of his soul and for the comfort of his family. He was a dear friend and will be missed.'<br />Eternal rest grant unto Dr. Ronald McArthur, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen."<br />http://www.christendom.edu/news/2013/10-17-mcarthur.php<br />College Mourns the Loss of Dr. Ronald McArthur<br />www.christendom.edu<br />“He was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are d...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Much of history and science and the universe is outside the scope of revelation. Dr. Warren Carroll leaned on the term "salvation history" heavily to help show how God works in time and space. So, he adhered strictly to this idea of a theological habit of mind. This habit begins with intellectual assent to revealed truths. Without this habit, the Catholic student may fall prey to wide ranging speculation which effectively imposes imaginary specifications onto the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_338" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T16:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, I really do think that this thread is what happens when someone who knows nobody is going to agree with him has a psychological inability not to try for the last word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_339" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-18T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-18T16:38:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a glossary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-18T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of Dr. McArthur, I recently lost all my prayer cards that were in a missal... Does anyone that had him for senior theology have time to type up the prayer of St Thomas Aquinas that the saint would say after consecration? I know McArthur handed them out to all his theology students. (Oh Godhead hid, devoutly I adore thee, who truly art within these forms before me, to thee my heart I bow with bended knee... Etc)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's telling that TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason, Aristotle or Euclid or valid syllogism. That must be because you want to be seen as the smartest people on the planet. Sounds a little insecure to me,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_342" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-18T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:21:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you even read question one of the prima pars? If you did, you wouldn't make such a completely idiotic statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_343" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-18T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because TAC generally promotes Aquinas's understanding of the relation between fatih and reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_344" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:24:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sweet honey on the rock! The Peregrine troll again?<br />Will this thread never end?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_345" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley Ignore Pilgrim Goodeffort.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_346" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:26:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's change the subject.<br />Is it true that the goat-stag tastes like chicken?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_347" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-18T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-18T17:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of goats, what is this? Is it goat, or is it barrel?<br />John Herreid's photo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you understood Catholic theology, Edward Langley, and the Faith, you would understand that the first part of the Summa is not the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology. TAC clearly produces arrogant goats, who would rather dodge real issues with obfuscations and false attacks, instead of addressing the fundamental flaw of its curriculum, which results in a kind of blunted and arrogant reason that is incompatible with genuine Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_349" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Herreid That's a very good question! I think it's an allegory on modernism. A satire on the confusion of discrete with continuous quantity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_350" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-18T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-18T17:43:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come on, Scott, you know that's not what he said. He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly wrong. The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology "proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not reason" - and TAC takes St. Thomas to be right about that. Therefore your characterization is wrong. That's all there was to it. [Notice the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the "source or principal set of data of sacred theology".] I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all ... oh well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_351" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:45:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like turtles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_352" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:48:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joe Zepeda Matthew J. Peterson If Aristotle and Batman got in a fight, who would win?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_353" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-18T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T17:48:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm starting to wonder what life would be like without this thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_354" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread should go on forever! Seriously!<br />Let's see how long we can make it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If TAC assents to the sacred truth from which sacred theology and the Catholic Faith stems, then why does TAC not include all of it, but only includes some of it. St. Thomas frowns upon that sort of thing. Perhaps it's because TAC wants to think it can reason more impressively about complex things. But reason illuminating Faith is not a maxim of the Faith.<br />And who is this Scott fellow you keep refering to? <br />I am The Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_356" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-18T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-18T17:57:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jason, that's a silly question. The real question would be if Aristotle and Batman got in a friendship based upon mutual concern for the polis, would it be a true friendship? (Second question: would Aristotle find Batman's relationship with Robin a little weird?)<br />I am The Walrus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_357" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm Batman.<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0F1fEQeWF8<br />Play Video<br />The Ultimate "I'm Batman!" Compilation<br />PART 2 IS HERE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUXvMymZC7A&feature=youtu.be Just...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_358" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-18T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T17:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This whole "all" of Sacred Theology seems like it would take longer than the life of the earth to accomplish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_359" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-18T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does all include all of St. Augustine? I've heard it said no two men such as men are today could possibly read all that he has written.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading "the most Aristotle and St. Thomas" is not the measure of the most excellent Catholic thinker, student or theologian. Get it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_361" class="entry odd" data-likes="12" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-18T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-18T18:02:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">"You must begin a reading program immediately so that you may understand the crises of our age. Begin with the late Romans, including Boethius, of course. Then you should dip rather extensively into early Medieval. You may skip the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. That is mostly dangerous propaganda. Now that I think of it, you had better skip the Romantics and the Victorians, too. For the contemporary period, you should study some selected comic books. I recommend Batman especially, for he tends to transcend the abysmal society in which he's found himself. His morality is rather rigid, also. I rather respect Batman.” <br />—Ignatius J. Reilly, Confederacy of Dunces</p>
</li>
<li id="post_362" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:03:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only read St Augustine and Batman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, you can't address the issue, but only resort to idiocy. You're in denial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_364" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Margaret Grimm" data-date="2014-08-18T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Margaret Grimm at 2014-08-18T18:05:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blackwell For The Peregrine.<br />Margaret Grimm Blackwell's photo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-18T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do tell us then what "Sacred Theology" is comprised of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Self-referential, echo-chamber, non-critical, idiocy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_367" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't feed the troll!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_368" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKlmc8HpkI4<br />Play Video<br />JOAN BAEZ ~ I Dreamed I Saw St Augustine ~<br />Joan Baez ~ I DREAMED I SAW SAINT AUGUSTINE ~ The significance of this song is t...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-18T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you telling us something about this thread? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All/some. Whole/part. These are fairly basic concepts. If you do not grasp the idea of the fullness of the Catholic Faith, in its revealed principles, this might explain how someone might write a thesis about how God is revealed in all Christians or in all things knowable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will tell you you have it wrong, Mr. Bootsma, and most certainly not quite right, which with this matter is wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_372" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom Sundaram Tell us abut Dante.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_373" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:16:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ooh, yes! I think I will!<br />So Dante was a 14th century Italian from Florence. One day when he was nine, he saw...<br />A WOMAN.<br />(if you want me to continue the story, please applaud or indicate thus otherwise. )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_374" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-18T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T18:16:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, tell us ALL about Dante </p>
</li>
<li id="post_375" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:17:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fullness. Give us the fullness of Dante.<br />Because this thread MUST NOT END!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_376" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay. So he saw a woman. But not just any woman. She was Beatrice, and he fell in love. Now, normally you or I, if we fell for someone, might write...what? Can anyone give me examples? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Love letters? A limerick?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_378" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:19:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, I was just going to say "dirty limericks" if nobody said anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_379" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetry! And Dante wrote poetry for her. Initially it was really bad by the standards of the day, which means that to this day classicists still nerd out over it. But eventually it got pretty good, and he invented a new style of poetry, the "dolce stil nuovo."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_380" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going to bed. (Past 1 am in Estonia). Can't wait to see how long this thread gets by the time I wake up!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_381" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heh, I have to study Italian, myself, but I will tell a little more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_382" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Dante set out to write BETTER poetry. A poem to span the ages, which settled for no theme less than the Love that moves the Sun and the other stars, in adoration of the Trinity and in veneration of his own, sainted Beatrice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was pretty smitten, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_384" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We need a sign up sheet to keep this thread going. Like Perpetual Adoration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now, a poem like that, you can't just write about the Shire - you need some Minas Tirith, and a lot of Silmarillon. So in order to do even a halfway good job, he needed to start by getting his liberal education on. From his studies of Philosophy, he produced three very notable works: the Convivio, or banquet, his metaphysics (his Silmarillon, if you will!); the De Monarchia, his political philosophy per se in light of the Incarnation; and finally the De Vulgari Eloquentia, his De Interpretatione or his Elvish, if you'd like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-18T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off to bed! Keep it up!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_387" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">These three works are still epochal works in first philosophy, political theory and linguistics respectively, and show signs of his education by both the Dominicans and the Franciscans, as well as his rhetorical training under Brunetto Latini, Dante's "Ser Brunetto." But to the Divine Commedia, they were only to be handmaids, as Philosophy is to Theology. (Hence his enduring belief in Philosophy as a Lady - in fact, as Mary, "our tainted nature's solitary boast", was the handmaid of the Lord, so philosophy is the handmaid of the Trinity.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_388" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When he had finished these, he set out to depict nothing less than the poetic exposition of the cosmic character of the Eucharist as the Incarnational mode of communion with the Trinitarian life. But to do this he had to illustrate precisely the highest mode by which we can relate to God as being simply the being of God Himself - Love. And he wanted to display, by his pen, the enduring and primary truth about creation - that the order of the existence of all things is not a rigorous necessity, as though God had to create us just so according to a rigid and immutable a priori law (Inferno - "He broke the rigid sentence from above") or its seeming abandonment (Purgatorio) but according to His truly immutable Will, which in its immutability captures the purpose of all mutability.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_389" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-18T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-18T18:31:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I'm just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a glossary."<br />AMEN to this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In doing this, he realized that the only epistemological mode of truly accessing this mystery was the Beatific Vision of God Himself, especially the Person of Christ. So to do this, he had to depict nothing less than a poetic inroad into that super-knowable knowledge. Hence, the conclusion of his Paradiso, in which the entire symphonic order of the other two Books finds its climax and fruition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_391" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, now my fingers are tired. Maybe more later. Someone else needs to pick up the baton. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-18T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poor answer Scott. Poor answer. What is theology then, if you wont tell me what "all of sacred theology" is, at least you can tell me what it is in it's essence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_393" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-18T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again,<br />Erik Bootsma's photo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_394" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T18:50:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude. I logged off of the Book of Faces for days...AND IT'S ALIVE!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_395" class="entry odd" data-likes="21" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T18:51:00 with 21 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is a testament to the naive but earnest nature of Thomas Aquinas College graduates everywhere. Reason, Logic, and even Rhetoric sometimes are of no use, people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_396" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-18T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T18:52:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but you can't use sticks on Facebook. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_397" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-18T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-18T18:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we need to push the number of comments on this thread up over 400. Who's with me? *puts hand to ear*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_398" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">AMERICA, HECK YEAH</p>
</li>
<li id="post_399" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-08-18T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-08-18T19:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Naive and earnest....good description of the TAC ethos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is theology if not the fullness of the Faith, and what is the fullness if only St. Thomas. I wish he were the Pope today, but God's providence seems to be otherwise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_401" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Susan Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Susan Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I comment as a St. Johnnie. I don't think the point of TAC is to instruct in Sacred Theology as a subject, but rather to teach young people how to read and think while living in a Catholic milieu. They are supposed to have the foundation for continuing to learn about the faith, for evaluating new ideas which come along, for being informed Catholics and informed citizens. It isn't a seminary!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_402" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-18T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-18T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. (Scott) Peregeine (Weinberg) Bonaventure: Did you go to Christendom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_403" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:31:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Susan: There's a LOT of Theology, and the whole program is ordered to its study. (Peregrine is really, really not someone worth discussing this with, I promise you.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Susan Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Susan Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it isn't indoctrination and that sounds like what Mr Bonadventure is pushing for.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Susan Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Susan Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only wish I had a chance to study like that. I wish you had a summer graduate institute like SJC so I could go through even a shadow of your program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_406" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, sure, it's not raw catechesis, which he apparently thinks is something people should be getting in college, instead of even before 8th grade when most people today get it. It's the actual study of theology, which, contra illam troglodytam, involves philosophy as an ancillary discipline.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_407" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edmund T. Dean" data-date="2014-08-18T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can sympathise with Susan's point (though my perspective is pretty limited having done only one full year). The theology seems fairly pedestrian - extremely orthodox and superb for what it is, but as the almighty Dr. McArthur said to me once, "you probably shouldn't come here for scholarship." Given that the foundations of Catholic theology are notably absent from high school curricula, maybe this back-to-basics approach is necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_408" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-18T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-18T19:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just really curious about Mr. Weinberg's past now. What happened to him? Why does he hate TAC so much? <br />Much more interesting than anything he wants to talk about...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_409" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks for the kind words for the program, Susan! <br />Edmund raises a good point, which is that catechesis is falling off, but I think it's kind of strange to think that has to be fixed by turning undergraduate theology into an RCIA program or a grad school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_410" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Edmund T. Dean" data-date="2014-08-18T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:45:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shortly after leaving TAC I took a senior elective at a local seminary on Thomistic Ethics. I was actually surprised at how good the prep at TAC was for something like that, and I could hold my own with guys who had already been through 3-4 years of training for the priesthood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_411" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-18T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:46:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't say I ever reached a point in my Theology MA where I was totally out of my TAC comfort zone as far as understanding the ideas at hand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edmund T. Dean" data-date="2014-08-18T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If nothing else, it gives you a great prep just for grasping ideas in general and putting them into a logical framework. I slid into a job in journalism and it was great to be able to detect all the sophistry under the rocks </p>
</li>
<li id="post_413" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm really starting to enjoy Peregrine's off base, left-field, wack-ass (for lack of a better term) critiques. Set up something no one is saying, attack it violently, then repeat. and repeat. aaaaaand repeat.<br />"The sign out front says if I don't like it it's free. I don't like it"<br />"there's no such sig-"<br />"I said I don't like it, it should be free"<br />"but there's no-"<br />"but the sign says free"<br />this could work for me in "real" life</p>
</li>
<li id="post_414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-18T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are crazed and drunken sports fans, cheering for a particular team. You call your team the greatest. Then you mistake your team for the sport itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_415" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">nah, not much of a sports fan, really</p>
</li>
<li id="post_416" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Edmund T. Dean" data-date="2014-08-18T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:51:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">sec let me get my cheerleading outfit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_417" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:52:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">make sure it is dress-code approved</p>
</li>
<li id="post_418" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:53:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">as far as the "sports fan" thang goes, lots of us met our spouses at TAC some of us converted and found the faith at TAC, and none of us are unchanged by that experience, for good or ill.<br />That having been said, Scott, yo momma's fat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edmund T. Dean" data-date="2014-08-18T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">admittedly I may have my eyes glazed over from having made a lot of lasting friendships and rediscovered my vocation there ^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_420" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:57:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">420</p>
</li>
<li id="post_421" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Edmund T. Dean" data-date="2014-08-18T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:59:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw if you're from TAC and are reading this and you find yourself in London or thereabouts, this seminarian wants to treat you to dinner and a pint. Goodnight all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_422" class="entry even" data-likes="16" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T20:03:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine Bonaventure even has Michael Beitia defending his alma mater and has single handed lay kept this thread up this far and this long. <br />Truly you deserve an award. You are no longer a troll - you have achieved the level of the - of the -something even more - the level of a comment *Dragon*.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_423" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-18T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T20:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Scott, theology is the fullness of the faith, but what is it that is "missing" of that in the curriculum at TAC? Do please tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_424" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-18T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-18T20:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">but it's a douchey dragon, isn't it, Matthew? not just a regular dragon...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_425" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Martin G. Snigg" data-date="2014-08-18T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Martin G. Snigg at 2014-08-18T20:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">--->A Structural Reexamination of the Angelic Hierarchies for the Illumination of Man as a Cosmological Being<br />--->The Cosmic Game: Angelic Causality in the Material Realm<br />Thomas Quackenbush <---<br />--->The Stuff That Matters: The Atom as an Element<br />^Need the above for my current work.<br />Could have pasted them all but, for me, would like to read.<br />“The Clerk’s Tale”: An Insufficient Account of How to Accept Trial from God <br />“You Are Among Marvels That You Do Not Understand”: An Investigation into the Parallel Between the Character of Orual and the Land of Glome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_426" class="entry even" data-likes="22" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-18T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-18T20:18:00 with 22 likes</div>
<p class="text">Premise 1: A Catholic college should teach the fulness of the faith; Premise 2: the fulness of the faith can't fit into an undergraduate curriculum; Conclusion: No college is Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_427" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-18T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-18T20:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice try, Joe. But that makes way too much sense for Mr. Boneventure to accept as truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_428" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-18T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-18T20:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"TAC clearly produces arrogant goats..." I'd like to address this frankly childish, almost fart-like emittance from Peregrine.<br />Your unjust appellation of this particular graduate of TAC might well be correct, Mr. Bonaventure. But in my case, it's an accident of birth. You, sir, are clearly a self-made man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_429" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Maximilian Nightingale" data-date="2014-08-18T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Maximilian Nightingale at 2014-08-18T20:25:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't believe I just spent the last [...] minutes catching up on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_430" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-18T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-18T20:26:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">And let's be fair mr Benedict. It's a goatSTAG!!! C'mon people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_431" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-08-18T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-08-18T20:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Joe: the fulness of the faith can't fit into any curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_432" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Maximilian Nightingale" data-date="2014-08-18T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Maximilian Nightingale at 2014-08-18T20:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The whole "teaching the whole of theology" thing reminds me of a quote from Ephesians 1 that the Church prays in the Liturgy each week:<br />"God has given us the wisdom to understand fully the mystery, the plan he was pleased to decree in Christ."<br />FULLY! Any thoughts on what this means? Someone actually asked me about this the last time I was at TAC. Great question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_433" class="entry odd" data-likes="16" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-18T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T20:34:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a dog returneth to its vomit, so a Facebooker returneth to this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_434" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T20:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, Matthew, I've never defended TAC period. nor will I. I just attack Scott.<br />His momma so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house</p>
</li>
<li id="post_435" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T20:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and you didn't have to jump straight to "dragon", Peterson, wikipedia is instructive. I think maybe "slime-troll"<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)<br />Troll (Dungeons & Dragons) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />en.wikipedia.org<br />While trolls can be found throughout folklores worldwide, the D&D troll has litt...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_436" class="entry even" data-likes="13" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-18T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-18T20:56:00 with 13 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got my MA in Theology/Catechetics at FUS. When I met with the department chair, although on paper I "needed" about 7 pre-requisites to enter the program, he said that since I went to TAC he was waiving the pre-requisites. And I pulled off a Summa Cum Laude. (While mother of 6 children...). I now work as Theology Dept. Chair at an Archdiocesan pre-k through 12. All that to say TAC was lousy preparation.... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_437" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-18T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T20:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow! That's awesome!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-18T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-18T21:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It really was a great preparation! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_439" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-18T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-18T21:13:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Max Summe, clearly PeregrineScottWhatshisname asked TAC to the prom and was turned down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-18T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T21:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lastly, Peterson (for now) we need video of S C T A C 400</p>
</li>
<li id="post_441" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-18T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-18T23:04:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine is not passing the Turing Test. It's clearly some kind of performance art.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_442" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-19T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-19T00:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">whaaaaaaat is going on here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_443" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T00:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"If a man cannot cross a river on its own terms,<br />Then he doesn't deserve the other side."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_444" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-19T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-19T00:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">444 w00t!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T08:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T08:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, my gnosis tells me 496 is a perfect number. Maybe someone should aim for that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_446" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-19T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-19T10:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom has produced some great senior theses too. For example Dane Joseph Weber on intellectual property: http://dane.weber.org/concept/thesis.html</p>
</li>
<li id="post_447" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-19T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-19T10:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will always be grateful to Peregrine for inspiring this discussion:<br />http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/<br />Unwritten Tradition<br />sancrucensis.wordpress.com<br />Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_448" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-19T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T10:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still think, as I said then, that the response that Peregrine Bonaventure always brings forth is a sign that his complaints sometimes hit close to nerves or some unclear areas for many and are not mere trolling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_449" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-19T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T11:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If someone has a pen name, that is fair. Certainly, no more robust discussion on Faith and philosophy occurs than among the TAC family. I'm just saying, we need to examine our faith and theology. Not to question it endlessly, but to rely on it, so it does what it's supposed to do; so it perfects our reason and nature, and leads us to goodness and devotion. A strongly-worded criticism is not malicious. A strong defense will stand on its own and place things in better focus. Assent to the sacred truths of the Faith, in its entirety, is an act of the heart and the intellect -- and is a valid starting point for theological inquiry. The Liberal Arts were intended to support this inquiry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_450" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Shannon Maguire" data-date="2014-08-19T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Shannon Maguire at 2014-08-19T11:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I stumbled across this thread last night just before I went to bed. It accounted for my crazy dream of returning to campus and going class with Mr. Berquist (may he RIP), where the opening prayer had been changed. I've heard TAC accused of many things--producing arrogant graduates, focusing too much on Aristotle, not incorporating this or that great work--but I've never heard it called unCatholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_451" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Luke Halpin" data-date="2014-08-19T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Luke Halpin at 2014-08-19T12:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">No comment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-19T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is "unCatholic"? Does that mean you have a kind of theology that does not correspond with Catholic truth? There are many different truly Catholic theologians, and there are different theological approaches, but they all have one thing in common: they begin with an assent to the sacred truths which have been revealed and supported by the Catholic Church. They begin with the human being giving assent to these truths. They do not begin with another set of truths that the human being has reasoned to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">exactly, and we all know that St. Thomas when discussing the Holy Trinity, actually reasons to it from human understanding, and the articles are not explicating a mystery of the faith, nor a dogma, but rather proving that God is necessarily a Trinity from math and stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's nothing compared to how he proves that sacraments exist from historical necessity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_455" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T12:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and that's how I studied - like a good Marxist unraveling the historical truths that dialectically appear through the seminar method</p>
</li>
<li id="post_456" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-19T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-19T12:59:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">The gentleman: "If he engages in controversy of any kind, his disciplined intellect preserves him from the blundering discourtesy of better, perhaps, but less educated minds; who, like blunt weapons, tear and hack instead of cutting clean, who mistake the point in argument, waste their strength on trifles, misconceive their adversary, and leave the question more involved than they find it. He may be right or wrong in his opinion, but he is too clear-headed to be unjust; he is as simple as he is forcible, and as brief as he is decisive. Nowhere shall we find greater candor, consideration, indulgence: he throws himself into the minds of his opponents, he accounts for their mistakes."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_457" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-19T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-19T13:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we discussing the way in which we study Thomas, or the fact that we study Aristotle alongside Thomas? (And for certain subjects like logic, natural science, ethics, before him?) why on earth am i even typing this, i have no idea. Need to take up knitting again...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-19T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, TAC does not begin theology with assent to sacred truths. Though it may recognise that St. Thomas himself has taught that sacred theology begins with assent to divine revelation and the sacred teachings of the Holy Catholic Faith, though it states in its Charter than liberal education is finally subject the teaching Church, in the course of its curriculum, it does not teach or present theology in this way. But in another way...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-19T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It begins in an entirely different way. It begins with logic and philosophy and things which can be known by reasons. It uses these things as the principles of theology. It does not begin theology and Catholic education with assent, but with syllogism or -- more fairly stated -- with reason. This is not off the wall. If this is false, then it should be easy for the college to correct it. TAC uses metaphysics as the basis for sacred theology. It does not use assent to sacred principles. It pursues a reason illuminating faith model, which has no precedence in Catholic theology. TAC may argue that it does not pretend to teach all of theology. It may say it is only a starting point to further study. But the starting point itself is wrong. It leads the student to reason towards faith, instead of faith perfecting reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-19T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Beitia, Thomas is NOT reasoning toward the Holy Trinity. He gives intellectual assent to revealed and sacred truth, then supports that faith with reasonable dialectic. It is assent to faith seeking and achieving understanding. It is not a reasoning in the metaphysical sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-19T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-19T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Scripture. . . But maybe that's to Protestant of a beginning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-19T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-19T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ubi est Peregrinus. Omnia argumenta eius deleta videntur. Certamen cum umbra. Laudandi qui umbras suas vicerunt. Thomas ne erubesceat </p>
</li>
<li id="post_463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">really Scott? I had no idea</p>
</li>
<li id="post_464" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T15:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">BINGO: you spelled my name right!<br />Give him a hand, folks, he can be taught</p>
</li>
<li id="post_465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-19T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok. is it safe to understand mr p-bon, that you attended TAC? I only say that as I think it says something to that effect on your book of faces profile. now... the way that the program is built studies things in a historical narrative (more or less). however, it is an integrated historical narrative. the program does not study JUST logic, and THEN syllogism, and THEN philosophy (just listing what you wrote above - more or less), and THEN some natural theology a la greeks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kunz - he's a Christendom guy, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_467" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-19T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(still writing - just hit enter by mistake - in my humility, I just said that I made a mistake)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_468" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T16:08:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also I love that P-B is apparently immune to sarcasm, as he completely missed Beitia's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_469" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Becca Cupo" data-date="2014-08-19T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Becca Cupo at 2014-08-19T16:12:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just adore this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_470" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-19T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">HOWEVER!!! (and yes, I know that this argument/discussion is fruitless – but what the hell).<br />We study these things in order, to give a proper context to what comes (came) next, in both the progression of thought, but also progression of what formed the thought.<br />That is why the programs are actually integrated, not just among the other subjects, but in themselves.<br />So, it seems like a fairly logical thing to study theology in the following manner: <br />1) Sacred Scripture<br />2) St. Augustine (first explaining how to further understand it, and then an understanding of how Sacred Scripture exists in the world, thought, etc).<br />3) The Prima Pars (Summa) – the treatise on God, then the treatise on the sacraments, etc. (yes – this was written by St. Thomas Aquinas). <br />a. Incidentally, this is studied as it is the basis (according to the Vatican, anyways) for most of the Church(sorry, Magisterium)’s understanding of God, Sacred Theology, etc., etc., <br />4) Then we study the Constitution of the Church, certain encyclicals (issued by the Magisterium, if you will) to understand various aspects of not only Theology, but also Catholic Social Thought.<br />I say that is seems fairly logical to study in that manner, because that is the same manner in which God's Divinely Revealed Truth has become understood to man over the centuries... Why start with the end of the book and not meet the plot, characters, twists, etc? Knowing only the way that Don Quixote's ends, without knowing how he actually got there, and the WAY that he got there would be fruitless.<br />But the brilliance of the integration here, is the fact that one cannot properly understand the words, terms, phrases or dare I say, SENTENCES and paragraphs in most of what St. Thomas wrote, OR St. Augustine OR Any of the other notions then studied through encyclicals, etc., if one has not first studied those that they refer to, quote and lean on to make their mark. That is to say, if one just starts straight in on the summa with a hope to one day read St. John of the Cross (make up some other example here please), one does not have any further respect, knowledge NOR understanding of either Carmelite Mysticism, NOR the Catholic Faith (nor the magisterium – just to be fair). THAT IS BECAUSE very simply, very few people are smart enough to just read the Summa and understand its meaning, let alone its nuance.<br />So, do students at TAC study logic and natural theology? Absofreakinlutely. Is that because the Blue Book says so? Nope. Is that because the founders think that we can reason our way to understanding God alone without the light of faith? Nope. It’s because in order to not only appreciate STA, but also have any chance of grasping straws, one must understand his vernacular, and in a certain sense – study the same way that he did.<br />So is logic an important part of the curriculum? So much so that it pervades almost every freshman class? It sure is! Is Aristotle that important too? Not because it’s Aristotle. It’s important because that is what follows from an understanding of Western Philosophy (I doubt they study Aristotle in the same way at St. John’s when discussing the Great Books of Eastern Thought). However, in order to give the best picture in a short period of time (4 years), there must be some tie between it all. Therefore: Pre-Socratics Socrates/Plato Aristotle Modernity Post-Modernity. Are you seeing the trend here? It’s the same in Math… Euclid Ptolemy Copernicus Kepler Descartes Leibnitz Newton Non-Euclidian Einstein (I missed some and integrated others). This studies the formation of the problem. And it leads to a full (as full) understanding of the stuff. <br />So – to add the last thoughts based on your (Current) last post. <br />“It begins with logic and philosophy and things which can be known by reasons.”<br />A) Covered, but I know that you see the error in complaining about this anyways, as of course you know, We learn by moving to the more known to us, to the less known and thereby towards that more known in itself. So, this makes sense.<br />"It uses these things as the principles of theology. It does not begin theology and Catholic education with assent, but with syllogism or -- more fairly stated -- with reason."<br />A) No. This isn’t how the study of Theology, nor principles of theology are studied. This is how PHILOSOPHY is studied – in order to better understand theology? Yep! But not THE study of Theology.<br />“This is not off the wall. If this is false, then it should be easy for the college to correct it. TAC uses metaphysics as the basis for sacred theology. It does not use assent to sacred principles. It pursues a reason illuminating faith model, which has no precedence in Catholic theology.”<br />A) Nope. Natural Theology? Yep. SACRED? Nope. <br />“TAC may argue that it does not pretend to teach all of theology. It may say it is only a starting point to further study. But the starting point itself is wrong. It leads the student to reason towards faith, instead of faith perfecting reason.”<br />A) AGAIN – not sure where this idea is coming from… but I think that my first paragraph deals with this as well. <br />But don’t take my word for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-19T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-19T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr Peregrine, two questions. What is the ideal of a university as such? 2) is a Catholic university different in kind from a university simply?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_472" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-19T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're welcome (show off)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-19T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-19T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/BNyDjkPO8l0<br />Play Video<br />Wha' Happen??<br />Hey, Wha Happen??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-19T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-19T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">QUAESTIONEM unam propono: BOVEM MUTUM hanc lineam commendare arbitraminine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_475" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T19:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, one of the first lessons I teach any students learning history with me is to avoid the mistake of assuming that at any given historical period people all thought the same thing. Being quick to judge, and naturally tending toward it, young students like very much to say things like "Well that's just what they all thought back then." Jonathan Scott Weinberg, or the so-called Bonaventure, appears from his profile picture to be substantially older than high school or middle school students. But that don't seem to matter.<br />Mr. Weinberg, even if your tenuous claim that TAC purports to approach sacred theology in some specific unprecedented way holds any water whatsoever, it does not follow that therefore all graduates of TAC also approach it that way, or that we all emerge inevitably brainwashed by the college's approach.<br />In other words, Bonaventure - I'm trying very hard to see things from your point of view, I really am. Unfortunately, I can't stick my head that far up my own ass. Maybe you can teach me how to do that, too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_476" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-19T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-19T19:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - just because you aren't getting many responses to your Latin statements doesn't mean that we don't understand them...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_477" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T19:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Excuse me? Have we met? How the hell can you justify calling all of us arrogant? I expect it from PB, because he's a troll and we've been over and over this twenty times, and I didn't read your Latin because it struck me as pretentious (and as a canonist in training, it's not because I don't read Latin) - who the hell are you to be so bigoted toward everyone here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-19T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-19T19:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And to be fair... Knowing oneself to be correct in all instances, and stating that to be the case doesn't make one arrogant. It just makes them correct. Always and in all ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_479" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T19:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I don't think I studied Theology wrong, and I'm willing to bet my MA in Philosophy and my MA in Theology on that. Are you going to tell me where I screwed up? Because if you want to tell me the failures in my own education, you'd best be damn well ready to back it up with chapter and verse. Failing to do this means you are guilty of calumny.<br />Take your time, rear yourself up like a man and make your case - I know the documents of the Church well enough that I am untroubled by any ideas you might have gotten into your head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ruplinger, I've seen your intelligent comments on my Dad's posts. I thought you were better than this. Who the hell do you think you are? I see you "studied porters and imperial stout at University of Dallas." Did you really just join Bonaventure in referring to the entirety of TAC graduates as arrogant bastards? Answer me this, you troglodyte - was it hard work becoming such an illiterate boor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom - I think it might be a good idea for Ruplinger to learn how to punctuate and capitalize before he tackles your theology education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whoa there. He might not be illiterate (though he seems to be acting boorish, I grant you) - and certainly there is something trollish in the way he just accused us - I want to hear his case. Really, I do. I want to hear it out in the open, where such accusations among Christians ought to be exposed to sunlight, and I want to watch him try and make his case, because, on the distant chance he is right, he can prove it like a man - and if he is wrong, he can accept censure for insulting an entire school of people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's not off to a very good start.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I'd really love to hear in what way I am "impotable." I hadn't realized that you could use that to describe someone, it usually referring to whether water is drinkable, and on the off chance it is literary genius instead of the more likely imbecilic nattering, I'd like to know what it means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_485" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-19T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:06:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/embed/PB6sH3RwGYA?autoplay=1<br />Play Video<br />The Great Muppet Caper, Say cheese!<br />The end of the song "Happiness Hotel" from The Great Muppet Caper. Gonzo takes a picture and Sam the Eagle says his best line ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_486" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom - I think he intends it to mean "unbearable."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, that's like...one letter too long and way too many letters different. How do you get from A to B on that one? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew - granted. Quite granted. Doesn't mean some people around here don't need an expert surgeon in head-from-ass removal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He means we are unbearable to be around or converse with, just as muddy, stagnant water is impotable. That's my best guess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In other words, he can't stomach us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_491" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, I assume that his criticism that our "tone" indicates that we don't get Theology right is because we have a sense of poise and dignity about our education, rather than treating our degrees as worthless pieces of paper that can be used as Latin-themed toilet rags in emergencies. I suppose, given the kind of paradigm that thinks being anything but passive on the matter is the Devil's work, he would rather we spent all our time talking about social issues and never discussing Aquinas. We would all be perfect souls of courtesy. You know, like St. Jerome "the Thunderer."<br />"As to your inquiry whether I have written in opposition to the books of Annianus, this pretended deacon of Celedæ, who is amply provided for in order that he may furnish frivolous accounts of the blasphemies of others, know that I received these books...I have suffered so much...that I almost thought of passing over these writings with silent contempt. For he flounders from beginning to end in the same mud, and, with the exception of some jingling phrases which are not original, says nothing he had not said before. Nevertheless, I have gained much in the fact, that in attempting to answer my letter he has declared his opinions with less reserve, and has published to all men his blasphemies; for every error which he disowned in the wretched synod of Diospolis he in this treatise openly avows. It is indeed no great thing to answer his superlatively silly puerilities, but if the Lord spare me, and I have a sufficient staff of amanuenses, I will in a few brief lucubrations answer him, not to refute a defunct heresy, but to silence his ignorance and blasphemy by arguments: and this your Holiness could do better than I, as you would relieve me from the necessity of praising my own works in writing to the heretic."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_492" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">THE ST. JEROME SMACKDOWN!! OHHHHH SNAP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_493" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-19T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-19T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">QED (BTW there is a potable arrogant bastard.) Anywho, I just read like hundreds of posts ripping on a certain Peregrinne B. but couldn't find a single post by him. Just trying to clarify. Regarding the theology, I take for a model both the Jesuit tradition and Leo XIII's suggested order of studies. Your own is considerably different. I also question how its done. That is all. Regarding superbia, it's just something I suspect in how open you are to criticism. I was being tongue in cheek mostly, but hey, what do I know. (edit: to be clear I refer to the Ratio Studiorum esp. as explained by Fr. Hughes)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-19T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there's plenty of cheek to go around in these parts...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_495" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-19T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:24:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real question is: is this comment thread a sin I must confess as soon as I am able?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_496" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-19T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But all I did was point to the one interlectual thing I like about my alma mater...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_497" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-19T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-19T20:25:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, this comment thread is building you mansions in Heaven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_498" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if you die tomorrow and become a saint, will this thread stand as some kind of fourth-class digital relic of you, Matthew?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_499" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a great fan of the potable Arrogant Bastard. I am also a fan of the classical order of studies - I especially like how Leo got it from Aquinas, and how ours doesn't begin with Metaphysics and end in the Scriptures, such that all of it is accepted purely based on "my teacher told me so." I am open to criticism, believe it or not - I am not so open to these usual Ex Corde Ecclesiae school genital-waving contests which seem to be everyone's favorite occupation.<br />Since I presume your accusations are not actually based in reality or knowing me at all, I'm just going to assume you won't defend them, in which case I hope you are willing to offer an apology. I don't take kindly to "I'm just gonna be an uncontrolled flapping mouth at your school, since, you know, if it's on the internet nobody can tell me what is rude." I believe that my school deserves an apology when people say ignorant stuff about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_500" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-19T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-19T20:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Creator of five day long comment threads . . . Pray for us."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_501" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ruplinger and Bonaventure both seem to hold degrees from the same school of evasion, Tom. I don't think an apology is forthcoming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_502" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom, you should quote Jerome in Latin, otherwise the relevant parties might not understand it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_503" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Mr. Bonaventure is really Mr. Weinberg, I believe he was asked to leave TAC by Mr. Kaiser at some point in his freshman year. (Or at least, Scott Weinberg related some such anecdote to me back in the day.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ruplinger has no idea what hurricane he has just provoked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_505" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Facebook's privacy settings can do that to conversations. Especially if the person in question has blocked you at some point: then neither you nor he will be able to see each other's comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"...i suspect part of his complaint which i sympathize with: 1) youre all impotable arrogant bastards 2) you dont study theology right. BY your own admissions even and tone, he is right." Would you care to explain how we have so grievously misunderstood you, sir?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_507" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The short story is that someone showed up awhile ago and started criticizing TAC's curriculum and evading any attempt to reach common ground. Since then, many of us have, rightly or wrongly. decided that argument with this person is fruitless and have begun responding in kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-08-19T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-08-19T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I pray for their job prosoects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_509" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think very few TACers would claim that TAC's curriculum is perfect for every possible end, (in fact, I gather that several people in this thread are quite critical of TAC most of the time) we just like criticism to come from someone who is willing to actually talk to us rather than at us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_510" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd never say I'm not arrogant. I reject the idea that I'm somehow arrogant because I attended Thomas Aquinas College.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps you were not deliberately provocative in that other conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_512" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also - 524.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">.525x10^3</p>
</li>
<li id="post_514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that is a problem, although there is a corresponding problem with lectures: excessive passivity to the ideas of others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_516" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know the Jesuit method, perhaps a description would be helpful. I do know that the "Scholastic" method balanced lectures (lectiones) with something similar to a seminar (i.e. the disputationes). Obviously the format of the latter differed insofar as it concluded with an authority pronouncing judgment on the positions held by his students: but something like that happens in the better seminars at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can't hear you with your mouth full like that, John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_518" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll take a good Stone Brewing Company IPA, if you please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_519" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pistols at dawn, Ruplinger. Your day has come.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-19T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scintilating discussion. It's no surprise the TAC family of scholars pursues the question what is theology. No one else is doing this today. You need very strong reasoning skills to pursue this question today. Faith -- which is love engulfed in the substance of things hoped for -- seeking understanding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_521" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, Peregrine, we read the dude that invented that phrase, we'll all about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Put a sock in it, Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_523" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, Dr. MacArthur and co. basically never stopped repeating that phrase.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-19T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, I love you guys.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_525" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-19T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-19T21:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FYI John - this is the type of comment that you cannot see which these gentlemen were responding to: <br />Peregrine Bonaventure The guys who started TAC were extreme intransigents on a wide range of false opinion, from the question of unalienable rights to the relationship between Faith and reason, to the relationship between St. Thomas and the Church, to the human person, to the nature of the human will and the imagination, and so much more. TAC is a backwater. An idolatry. Because of its arrogance, which it holds as a virtue, and because of its incomplete presentation of the Faith, it leads to a truncated exercise of reason, and its students are often grossly offensive. <br />I thank Holy Mother the Church and Her Sacraments for my spiritual and academic formation.<br />August 15 at 8:29am <br />There are plenty more where that came from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBPy4tvlCwc<br />You Displease Me<br />You displease me greatly and I ignore the both of you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_527" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T21:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's real great that just for going to a serious Catholic school, I get to have a HEADMASTER OF A CATHOLIC SCHOOL CALL EVERYONE LIKE ME ARROGANT IN PUBLIC. I'm sure Trinity, Ambrose, and JPII all are real proud of you, John. You really do them proud when you insult people on Facebook for no reason. It's a real credit to the education.<br />JUST KIDDING HA HA HA IT'S JUST A JOKE, TONGUE IN CHEEK YOU GUYS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This guy is the headmaster of a school? I'm shocked, shocked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_529" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom, I don't think that's necessary: John seemed to have missed the context of our snips at Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_530" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T21:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what if he missed it? It doesn't justify anything that he came in without context when he just said bad stuff about our entire school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-19T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed - he admitted himself he was being "merely provocative."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-19T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, yeah, I could come into a heated argument where people are being all defensive about being white and saying retaliatory stuff against an Indian guy - it wouldn't justify me canning all white people. Screw that circumstantial nonsense; if you say horrible nonsense about me, my friends and colleagues, we deserve an apology for such a stupid "joke."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_533" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-19T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T21:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://vimeo.com/m/37683622<br />Rainy Day Women No. 12 & 35<br />Well, they’ll stone ya when you’re trying to be so good They’ll stone ya just a-like they said they would They’ll stone ya when you’re tryin’ to go home Then…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_534" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-19T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-19T21:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I appreciate that this thread gets a soundtrack from time to time....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_535" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T21:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heated discussion? ha. this is all twaddle. Scottegrine Bonaweinberg sets up a straw man, beats a drum and the TAC interblagactivists get all up in a tizzy. Its laughable, stupid and pointless. <br />I prod I prod I prod because it entertains. I need not justify my basic education to anyone, least of all a pseudonymous troll. <br />In the words of Bender Bending Rodriguez: Bite my shiny metal ass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_536" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-19T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-19T21:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Futurama references are always appropriate at all times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_537" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T21:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">^do you have magisterial evidence?^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_538" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Si aliqui audet dicere quod referentia ad futuramam sint aliquando non conveniens, anathema sit" -- (Council of Liberfaciei, 2008, canon xviii)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_539" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-19T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-19T22:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I thought that his couldn't escalate anymore than it already had. . . (By the way discussion is a great way to find out you're wrong too! Throwing out thoughts at 17 other individuals who all read the same things doesn't make everyone agree! We don't just nod and continue on our way. I think I learned a lot of humility through Socratic dialogue. Entering a class being absolutely certain and leaving it being dazed and confused and seeking more answers isn't easy!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we should periodically resurrect this thread, just because.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_541" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T22:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">the next perfect number is 8128.... good luck</p>
</li>
<li id="post_542" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Shannon Maguire" data-date="2014-08-19T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Shannon Maguire at 2014-08-19T22:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Isak Benedict and Lauren Ogrodnick above--my personal vice of arrogance has little to do with where I did my undergraduate degree. I am very proud of having made it through TAC, and I am still exceedingly happy that such a place exists. I am also proud of what has happened in my life since then. <br />I didn't read everything in the curriculum, I didn't understand everything that I did read, and I didn't participate as much as I should have in every class, because frankly, I didn't have a brilliant mind to match many of my classmates'. If anything, I was humbled by attending TAC.<br />It's really irritating when some people paint all "TAC"ers with one brush, as if each person gets stamped with the same personality upon graduation, and any differences or growth beyond the degree are irrelevant. I dated one of these people for a short time--quite awkward, I must say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_543" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T22:41:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">You keep talking, but you don't seem to understand what you say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_544" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T22:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would you sketch out the principle texts you would use for a four year college curriculum that intends to teach theology? In what order would you present those texts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_545" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, be specific: would Freshman theology involve reading the Bible? what additional texts would you add? The Catechism? Dei Verbum?<br />If you really want a defense of TAC's curriculum, a communication of your view of a good curriculum might help us see what common ground there is to start from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you saying that freshman year would not involve studying anything besides theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_547" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:18:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what the founders of TAC thought was that a strong foundation in logic and philosophy would help students of theology see the line dividing Faith and reason. Furthermore, it would help theologians begin to understand the faith (remember, "fides quaerens intellectum") by giving them places from which they can both defend the articles of the Faith against objections and show the harmony of the deposit of faith with the truths discoverable by natural reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_548" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Part of the questiop, then, would be should theology (as opposed to catechesis) begin with the articles of faith or should it begin with the preambles and progress to the articles, as St. Thomas does in the Summa.<br />None of this is to deny that the articles of Faith are the first principles of Sacred Theology. Sometimes, however, what is first "by nature" (to use a technical phrase) is not first in the pedagogical order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_549" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Berquist explicitly denied that TAC was a great books school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_550" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The curriculum of TAC is designed to provide the various aids one needs to fruitfully begin to study theology: the reason more "Sacred Theology" is taught at TAC is probably that "the Founders" judged that most college-age students weren't ready for a formal study of theology.<br />After all, in the medieval schools, Sacred Theology was studied after a long, rigorous curriculum of philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_551" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never implied that the articles of Faith were all contained by St. Thomas: after all some of them (such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption) were only recognized as such long after St. Thomas died.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_552" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Catechesis is something entirely different" That's exactly what I was saying: should the study of the science of Theology begin with rote memorization of the articles of the Faith, or with the philosophical precursors to such a study?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_553" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Well, it is a Great Books school. It says it is, and it reads James. It is what it is. If it is not a Great Books school, it does not teach sacred theology either."<br />Mr. Berquist is on record denying that TAC is a great books school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_554" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, but should neophytes begin by studying the Immaculate Conception?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_555" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Should theology be taught by telling the students: "Go study whichever article of Faith happens to pique your interest?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_556" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-19T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T23:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, Edward, why?<br />Perescott is just a beating drum</p>
</li>
<li id="post_557" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a glutton for punishment sometimes. Also, I'm trying to distract myself from writing a master's thesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_558" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To prepare them to study theology, perhaps?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_559" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still curious what "studying theology" would look like. Presumably, it doesn't match what I did while reading St. Thomas on the Trinity and the Sacraments in class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-19T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How should I go about studying the Trinity? Read the relevant encyclicals and council documents?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_561" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-20T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-20T00:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Berquist. (Marcus) Not Dr. Berquist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_562" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"You both seem incapable of arguing about this subject like mature thinkers. I am not beating a drum. I am making true statements about Catholic education and sacred theology, and pursuing a line of argumentation in support of these true statements, which you are unable to address."<br />Peregrine, perhaps you are stating things and arguing from them: but you are not answering my questions about your understanding of the "true statements". In fact, I think a lot of what you say is true, but I either disagree with your understanding of the truth or the implications you suppose it has. If you want to argue with us and not just pontificate at us, you should answer our questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_563" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, as far as I can see, most of the misrepresentation in this thread is on your side: I have made very few statements of fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Take my most recent question: If I were to study the Trinity, how should I go about it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_565" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the goal of TAC is "to prepare students to study theology" then why does it not help students develop a theological habit of mind? Why does it spend years studying geometry and music? Is this beautiful? Does geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity?<br />1) "Why does it not help students develop a theological habit of mind?"<br />- Describe the "theological habit of mind"<br />2) "Why does it spend years studying geometry and music?"<br />- Because the study of geometry sharpens the logical abilities of the mind and music disposes one's passions, helping to develop the virtues necessary to fruitfully pursue the study of theology.<br />3) "Is this beautiful?"<br />- Not sure what the question is.<br />4) "Does geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity?" (I'm not sure what "the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity" is :))<br />- see (2): Marx and Hegel promote errors which help us understand the philosophical concepts that Sacred Theology uses better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_566" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T00:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward - we did this a few months back with tutors and all - in another thread (quoted by Frater Edmund) and it gets no where. Scot (Peregrine) doesn't care to be convinced of anything. He is right and we are infidels in his mind. In fact, we are worse than infidels -- because we masquerade as Catholics. <br />It is impossible to change his mind. That "debate" ended with the tutor (who is eminently kind and charitable) unfriending him. There was no other solution. <br />My question is if Scott (aka Peregrine) hates TAC so much, why did he apply (and attend Freshman year in part) 3 or 4 times? He was in my class, and the class ahead of me, and another behind me and I believe in another years before. Perhaps this is an issue of rejecting that which rejected you -- it happens all the time in relationship break-ups. <br />And why did the college keep letting him back in?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-18T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What have I misrepresented, Edward?"<br />Tell me if you understood the intent of this exchange correctly:<br />"Peregrine Bonaventure It's telling that TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason, Aristotle or Euclid or valid syllogism. That must be because you want to be seen as the smartest people on the planet. Sounds a little insecure to me,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_568" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-18T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:21:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you even read question one of the prima pars? If you did, you wouldn't make such a completely idiotic statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-18T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because TAC generally promotes Aquinas's understanding of the relation between fatih and reason.<br />Peregrine Bonaventure If you understood Catholic theology, Edward Langley, and the Faith, you would understand that the first part of the Summa is not the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology. TAC clearly produces arrogant goats, who would rather dodge real issues with obfuscations and false attacks, instead of addressing the fundamental flaw of its curriculum, which results in a kind of blunted and arrogant reason that is incompatible with genuine Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Did I ever" data-date="2014-08-20T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Did I ever at 2014-08-20T00:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">say that "the first part of the Summa is the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology."? No, I responded to your claim that "TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths" by pointing out that St. Thomas (and, consequently, TAC) promotes a very different view of theology at the very heart of what TAC promotes as a good guide to the study of theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_571" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T00:26:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's an obsession -- and he gets some kind of kick out of it. Do what is recommended for the treatment of tantrumming children and walk away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_572" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-20T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-20T00:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahahaha ok. I'm actually now sorry that I spent a bit of time writing an actual response to one of these question when the above is written. As Shakespeare might have said, "thyself upon thyself".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_573" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-20T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-20T00:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love that we're around 600 comments on this thread. Was nice to see you all... But this is nothin short of a waste of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T00:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We could have a better discussion if we just addressed one another. Not out of arrogance but out of wisdom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-20T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-20T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I studied with some of the c'dom "professors" while doing grad & post grad studies in Rome... I assumed that they were unemployable because they were able to get Jobs at Chrystendom...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_576" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll give you a hint, look at Joe Zepeda's interpretation of the events:<br />"Joe Zepeda Come on, Scott, you know that's not what he said. He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly wrong. The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology "proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not reason" - and TAC takes St. Thomas to be right about that. Therefore your characterization is wrong. That's all there was to it. [Notice the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the "source or principal set of data of sacred theology".] I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all ... oh well."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_577" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish you would ask yourself "Why might a bunch of educated people not want to argue with me? Why would someone who has spent at least four years of his life arguing with people who hold all sorts of strange opinions find my attitude off-putting?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_578" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-20T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-20T00:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck graduated from TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_579" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:48:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">My claim is that TAC promotes St. Thomas's (and, by the way, the Church's) understanding of the relationship between faith and reason to be true. St. Thomas very explicitly claims in ST I.1 a.8: "Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God." Consequently, TAC teaches us that "theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason." Thus (a) you misrepresented TAC's position on Sacred Theology. (b) you either misunderstood or misrepresented my reply to your accusations: I never said "the Summa is the 'source or principal set of data of sacred theology'," I merely said that "TAC promotes this view and this view contradicts your claim about TAC".<br />Perhaps some TACers think that you can demonstrate the existence of the Holy Trinity: Personally, I've never met one. In my Senior theology class on the Trinity with Dr. MacArthur, Dr. MacArthur emphasized over and over again how the ground and source of St. Thomas's exposition of the Trinity (using the Doctors and Fathers of the Church as well as the acts of the Ecumenical Councils) is the assent of Faith to matters beyond reason's grasp.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_580" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:49:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. if some TACers think the Trinity is demonstrable, they didn't get that idea from TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_581" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC definitely teaches and emphasizes natural theology, BTW, but I've never heard anyone suggest that natural theology is complete.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_582" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-20T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-20T01:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The wagons may be circled. But that's just Darwinian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_583" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"which afford more time and space for Freud and Euclid than it does for the doctors of the Church combined."<br />Um, Last time I checked St. Thomas was a doctor of the Church. We spend four semesters reading St. Thomas. We spend two semesters on Euclid and two or three classes on Freud.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_584" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We also read St. Augustine, St. Athanasius and St. John Damascene, all of whom are either Fathers or doctors of the Church: in fact, we probably spend more hours in and out of class reading St. Augustine than almost anyone else in the program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_585" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In addition, it does not employ this teaching as a principle in the instruction of sacred theology, but merely as a maxim."<br />Yes it does, in senior theology St. Thomas and the tutor emphasize the necessity of Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_586" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, when the Church gives instructions on how to study Theology, it has often said "Study St. Thomas". Perhaps more recent popes have been less explicit in this matter, but it can hardly be said that promoting Aquinas's understanding of theology is not acting in accord with the Church's wishes on the matter. Or else, if it is, perhaps you should talk to the Dominicans about how they form their novices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_587" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, I'm not sure how one could read St. Augustine and think that Sacred Theology is equivalent to natural theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you propose to teach the Faith in a way that the student absolutely cannot reject?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-20T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-20T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not one of a fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_590" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-20T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-20T01:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh - and if you read the loooooong response I wrote earlier today, it addressed most of your concerns, but you haven't responded.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_591" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, go read that response and then tell me that TACers don't try to reason with you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_592" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny, when you say things like "That's a very sweet sentiment, but I would not say that constitutes a credible approach to theology. Yes, it's good that you read a few of other Doctors and theologians of the Church, in addition to Saint Thomas. But any graduate of TAC is free to reject the Faith or reject the principles of sacred theology." my study of St. Augustine causes little "Pelagian" alarm bells to start ringing.<br />Do you really think that any human institution or even the Church could propose the Faith to someone in sucha way that they were no longer free to reject the Faith? Sure, if God gave them the gift of Faith, they will receive and profit from instruction; but without that gift, all instruction here below is fruitless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T01:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">First my apologies for the offense given by my rather crude remarks. In my defense, however, I point out that sometime between the initial post and my first post Peregrine blocked me (I know not why) and as I knew not the properties of such action, I was mystified that upstanding gentlemen from TAC were continuing to denigrate him (since at that time it was just a beat down and not the more recent reasoned arguments). It seemed unfair to me and the seeming display of arrogance and scorn merited some redress. I hope that's understandable. You may note that I deleted most my comments. I left, however, my only question.<br />Contrary to some opinion, I am very favorable to TAC though I have never met any graduates. My concerns are over the predominant method of seminar as well as the theology program (but that's a problem I likely have with any university, so it's no particular dig on TAC). Thanks to Edward, I was reminded that it is preparatory theology merely, though still the wisdom of Leo XIII's order of studies stands, which has a tradition spanning 800 years and is traceable to the Fathers of the Church. I also see the prudence of the older prescription limiting laymen in theological instruction; to put it simply they lack the evangelical councils, a necessary aid in that study which which can easily be a danger to one's own soul. Moreover, I don't regard the seminar format as suitable to such study. My own theology training was mostly unspeakably bad. <br />I am familiar with the seminar method myself since it was how I had learned. I may remind all that the college's patron was not known for his verbosity under St. Albert, and also that Pieper, a Thomist, reminds us that intellectus is passive, not active. Silence is a rule of St. Benedict, but also a rule of philosophy whatever school one is from (but most evident among the Pythagoreans). Certainly disputation sharpens the mind, making it capable of receiving wisdom, but wisdom does not come from within or at least not from ourselves. A loquacious soul may be clever, but is incapable of being wise.<br />My point of the Latin was merely to remind all that contemporary education falls far short of its precursors, but it is a failing in earlier years especially. By contemporary college age, back in the day, one had at least two ancient languages mastered, as well as literature, logic and preparatory philosophy (and for the Jesuits they had often begun teaching as well). TAC is necessarily limited in its aims due to this.<br />I agree with Matthew's original statement that the emphasis on Aquinas and Aristotle is TAC's strongest suit. Nevertheless, it is not nor can be some rival to the schools of old, whether ancient, Renaissance, or Medieval. Taking note of one's deficiencies which in my case are great, ought to put ourselves in a bit more modest attitude. <br />Finally, I do not know just how trollish Peregrine is. However, in all the vituperations at me, the sole question I asked was not acknowledged it seemed, and so I leave it.<br />For those interested, I strongly recommend Fr. Thomas Hughes book on Ignatian education (ca. 1900). This is my area of expertise if I have any. It requires more than one reading and some time between and a bit of pondering too; it's interesting that the author wrote to remind the Jesuits themselves how much different their schools were even at the end of the 19th century. (The Ratio Studiorum read alone leaves one with too many questions). The Jesuits, the first teaching order, can lay claim to being the summit of Christian education. It seems superior to Erasmus' plan which is more akin the origin of our own watered down fare -- and not surprisingly because he was friends with those who established the English schools that disintegrated bit by bit over the centuries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_594" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T01:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hint Edward (if you want to speed this up): PB (or SW) doesn't believe that the Socratic method is at all appropriate for the study of Theology because it implies that the student can wrestle with ideas or even discuss how something might be reasonable. Students are the be taught systematically using doctrinal sources only. No interpretation is permitted. (ok, go back to your argument)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_595" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T02:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My question is not "are we free to reject the principles of Faith . . ." it is "can the principles of Faith be put to a student in a way that he cannot reject?"<br />Perhaps you've been somewhere like that: somewhere that presents the Faith so clearly and coherently with teachers that are so holy that they can impress the virtue of Faith on the souls of their students. If so, I wish you'd tell us about that school, so we can learn their methods and reform TAC's curriculum accordingly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_596" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T02:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine Bonaventure Does Jody Haaf Garneau accurately summarise your position on teaching sacred theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T02:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, this is my current situation, perhaps I will return tomorrow to see your responses to our questions: http://xkcd.com/386/<br />xkcd: Duty Calls<br />xkcd.com<br />Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors).<br />August 20 at 2:08am · Like · 7 · Remove Preview<br />John Ruplinger Of course one must ask what is Socratic dialogue first. Do tutors lead students to aporia or invite sophists to do the same? What of the many youths who silently listen as in the Lesser Hippias in which Socrates interlocuter is embarressed. How often do the youths stay quiet? Are you familiar with Quigley and John Senior (IHS)? What do you think of the dumb ox? Did you know the Jesuits were forbidden to let students take notes or use lecture notes? Things to ponder merely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can u name a dialogue in which 2 youths are the main interlocutors?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_599" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T08:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T08:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">619 and still amusing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_600" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T09:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: Really? when I studied St. Thomas, we just called him "Thomas" and was instructed by the tutor to think of it as a mental exercise, like Euclid. <br />How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_601" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T09:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if Perescott Wienventure can name the seven liberal arts (hint: theology isn't one of them)? and then wonder why anyone would study music or geometry at a liberal arts school.<br />I suppose his contention would be that you shouldn't study liberal arts at a liberal arts school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T09:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">interesting mb. Most schools study no liberal arts. And one i know of that does produces courteous well born gentleman </p>
</li>
<li id="post_603" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I'm neither well-born (how would a school produce that?) nor particularly courteous - especially with pseudonymous trolls who have been sounding the same blaring trumpet blast for years. He never answers me, but just calls me names. Like thug. On the bright side, he finally after a couple of years learned to spell my 6 letter last name</p>
</li>
<li id="post_604" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-20T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-20T09:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Crazy like pineapples</p>
</li>
<li id="post_605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The linguistics of pineapple are Cray cray<br />http://www.expolugha.tn/wp-content/uploads/pineapple.jpg<br />www.expolugha.tn<br />www.expolugha.tn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_606" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Chris Bissex" data-date="2014-08-20T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Chris Bissex at 2014-08-20T09:41:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's becoming intimidating to comment on this thread, lest one accidentally make a comment that has already been made...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_607" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">it hasn't stopped anyone else. Plus, this thread is just a rehash of about ten others of the same stripe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T09:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i apologize for being obtuse. My questions above have two points: what is called Socratic dialogue upon inspection is not and such dialogues are often only for the benefit of the silent youths listening (or reader). Secondly there were methods of learning that are now extinct as far as i know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_609" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T10:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I almost responded in earnest... Edward, you set a bad example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_610" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-20T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm amused at the people that come out of the wood work the longer this goes on. Also does anyone else get the feeling that we have Dr. McArthur and Mr. Berquist laughing at us right now, or more so laughing at what they've created? Didn't they both always say that they were creating Martyrs for the Church? Haha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_611" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T10:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, one of the things I learned from both of them, is not to engage in a conversation when one knows that there is no real desire to listen, understand, and explain on the part of the other. <br />The program of study at TAC disposes the mind to wisdom, by disposing the mind to thing reasonably. In this way, we do not reason to the faith, but we think reasonably about the faith. <br />However, while we have been given this gift, the one thing we were not given was that we were not told how to use this gift. How do we use the gift of thinking reasonably in age that rejects reason? Nevertheless, all graduates are charged to defend the Church and her teachings "in season and out of season."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose the medieval universities present Faith as somethign to be reasoned towards, anyways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_613" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, et al. one reason I've been "setting a bad example" is to avoid misunderstandings about TACer's attitudes to the rest of the world. Especially for people who cannot see anything of the other side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_614" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T10:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do forget that some people cannot see all the comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_615" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-20T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but it would probably be more fruitful for you to work on your Thesis Ed </p>
</li>
<li id="post_616" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Anthony Crifasi" data-date="2014-08-20T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anthony Crifasi at 2014-08-20T10:45:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Dr. McArthur were here: "636 comments?!? This is all just mental..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_617" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-20T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Class dismissed! All of you go spend an hour in the chapel!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_618" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to get to a thousand ....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_619" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T10:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahahaha Perescott Wienventureburg calls the comments inane! Really!? Your assertion is still bare jackassery. I suppose starting with Holy Scripture is reasoning toward...... bah. Edward you got me started trying to respond. Never mind</p>
</li>
<li id="post_620" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-20T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"No seriously, at least an hour, some of you should probably stay in there for good and get in line for confession also."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_621" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-20T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, those medieval universities only began teaching theology after years of math, philosophy, music, etc . ..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_622" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T10:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">da da da da da da da</p>
</li>
<li id="post_623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but, Daniel how can you claim i do not egage in conversation if no one has responded to my questions? Be assured i am searching for the answer. Lost arts are hard to unbury.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">da da da da</p>
</li>
<li id="post_625" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-20T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T11:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you're not familiar with the heresies/heretics, how do you respond to them? Oops! I didn't just do that!!<br />In other thoughts, I'm wondering if the extent of everyone's participation in this conversation here is an accurate representation of how they are in class. Those that come in strong and then give up (rightfully or wrongfully) and start watching the clock, those that never give up, those that try to wrap things up, those that just start throwing random comments to keep everyone friends, those that come out of the wood work as class time comes to the end etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i simply asked a Socratic question: what is Socratic dialogue? If TAC doesnt know, who does? (Before responding please see my list of seeming aporeia producing questions above)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_627" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-20T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T11:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, there was a different comment inbetween that Michael was responding to. I think your questions are the ones being thrown to the side while they address someone else still </p>
</li>
<li id="post_628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Ruplinger, I don't know what Socratic dialogue is. I do know trollish jackassery, bald assertion, and inability to pick up on sarcasm..... but that's my gnosis coming out again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_629" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I can only stop (Edward Langley) on perfect numbers, we passed six, 28 and 496.... I cannot stop until 8128. By divine decree from the lost gnostic work of St. Thomas "De Numerologiae" we studied it in junior math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_630" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-20T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:19:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This Peregrine moron reminds me of a much less funny, much less charismatic, and much less entertaining Ignatius J. Reilly. I don't even know where to begin, man. Some of your comments are the dumbest things I've ever read on the Internet. <br />"TAC does not support reasonable discussion on sacred truths." That is a patently, observably crackpot claim. <br />"But sadly, your only "argument" is that no one besides yourselves is able to understand you. You don't present an argument. You dodge and evade and attack and joke." Mr. Hercules Langley has done a fantastic job of attempting to clean the shit out of Bonaventure's stables on that count. You're really not going to find a more reasonable and kind interlocutor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_631" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my questions are serious, perhaps tinged somewhat ironic. Socrates was also thought a troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but much less repetitive than our own Scoregrine Bonaburgwienture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-20T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^That's Ignatius J. Reilly talking. "With the collapse of the medieval system, the gods of Chaos, Lunacy and Bad Taste gained ascendancy." Is your real problem, Bonaventure Cheevy, that you long for the days of old when swords were bright and steeds were prancing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-20T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again Mr. Ruplinger, he was referring to someone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_635" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and dirt farmers farmed actual dirt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_636" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"^This isn't argument, it's just contradiction"^<br />"no it isn't"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_637" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T11:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I am sorry if my comments came off as directed toward you. From what I have read of yours, you seem to be a reasonable fellow. I am sorry that you are in the middle of this whirlwind since you seem to have a serious question in mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_638" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T11:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, the colorful prose that you have put on display brought this to mind:<br />I have always appreciated the diversity of minds that come to and graduate from TAC, so many different interests. That is one of the things that I really appreciate about a liberal education. No one is educated to be a master of any one discipline upon completion of a liberal education. Rather, he (hopefully) has mastered the ability to reason well. Consequently, many TAC grads go into diverse fields: Theology, Philosophy, Law, Education at all levels, Engineering, Architecture, Physics, the Medical Sciences, Performing Arts, Visual arts... the list goes on. Most importantly, TAC has fostered the religious and priestly vocations of 11% of its graduates. There is something about a liberal education that really enables the liberally minded man to excel wheresoever he feels called.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-20T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know about that, Bonaventure. You could use a little color in your stale prose yourself. Right now you're just wearing the same shirt out in public every day, and it's starting to stink. You've consistently failed to engage anyone kind enough to entertain your (much more hostile than mine) attacks on an entire school. These are attacks you are not qualified to make, having failed to succeed in the program itself.<br />You have consistently failed to listen, avoided pointed questions, mocked your interlocutors, and generally behaved as a stubborn child. You have not made an argument. You have made bald claims without support and expected everyone to bow before you.<br />Who do you think you are? The Pope? Think again. Your words are those of a poor demented sap.<br />To everyone else - if I've offended you, I surely apologize. This is clearly a waste of time and I've simply become frustrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_640" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">i only see the "more" reasonable half of the whirlwind. I cant imagine the mad raving ghastly dead horse that is the other side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_641" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">you care too much. I may have been frustrated on this same thread two years ago, but you get used to the rhythm of the Bonavenburg drum. You can even dance to it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_642" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger made the 666th comment. Does that bring good luck or bad?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_643" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-20T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel - what can I say. I think in stories and poetry and myths. Bonaventure will say that means I can't hope to approach sacred theology. I say that man is creative as God is creative, and that art can save souls. Perhaps Bonaventure is simply artless. I'm glad he has such intimate familiarity with the TRUE and PROPER ways to come to know and love the Trinity though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_644" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't you read your "de Numerologiae"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_645" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was never given the fullness of Sacred Theology. So, no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_646" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's the cover of the first appearance of Groot:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-20T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Miniver cursed the commonplace<br />And eyed a khaki suit with loathing;<br />He missed the mediæval grace<br />Of iron clothing.<br />Miniver scorned the gold he sought,<br />But sore annoyed was he without it;<br />Miniver thought, and thought, and thought,<br />And thought about it."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_648" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">is my observation off base: they accuse pg of not answering questions, ad hominems, bad arguments, no arguments, etc. PG has won: he has successfully turned his interlocutors into himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't speak for anyone else, but I just throw that stuff at him because it is amusing. Some people can't be taught. He's back to misspelling my six letter last name </p>
</li>
<li id="post_650" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread has grown too long to be a medium of reasonable discussion. Which is why I post ridiculous things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_651" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:55:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a terrible strategy, Van Boom. I only post deadly serious, insightful commentary with the full authority of tradition, and magisterial teachings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THEN STOP. feeding him, mb. It is grossly unkind. Pray for him instead. You are encouraging his unmitigatable ire. Besides he has a point he cannot articulate in his blind fury. Argue for him instead. Take his side: thus u could outmedieval him and calm his rage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to feed a fury is worse than be one. He is tormented. The medieval disputant would argue either side. Help your brother out. Show him what medieval really is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_654" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The long history of weirdness with this guy precludes that method, John. I don't defend TAC as a matter of course, nor do I think it is perfect. And frankly I don't know anyone else on this thread personally until you get back to Kunz. (Peterson excepted) so I just aim to entertain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_655" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">...myself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">prayer is precluded at TAC? That is a good start mb. I believe pg accused tac of being noncatholic too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_657" class="entry odd" data-likes="14" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-20T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T12:12:00 with 14 likes</div>
<p class="text">might "Peregrine Bonaventure" be an account run by Matthew to troll the TAC alumni? PERFORMANCE ART?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb, let me ask. Is it the common aim of the liberal arts at tac to merely amuse oneself? while imperiling the souls of trolls. Is that what it is for? Is this Pieper's leisure? Kyrie eleison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_659" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Escalante! At last a familiar face!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_660" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-20T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T12:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think my theory has something to it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I'm no Callicles for you questioning. I don't play the "let me ask you something" game</p>
</li>
<li id="post_662" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Still at it? And this my friends is why there will be no online version of the TAC program any time soon. Facebook = THE worst way to have a discussion (especially with multiple participants)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_663" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T12:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have actually had many good conversation via Facebook. Yet, I am sure you are right that there will not be an online version of the TAC program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DO NOT IGNORE THE TROLL. Beat him pound him smash him. But to my questions, not one response and only one acknowledgement. Am i wrong to be skeptical of the boasts of TAC? It is slightly offputting. Color me disappointed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you mean your question about the classroom method John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_666" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose, and I can't speak for anyone here, that your question seems wildly tangential to the "is TAC bad at what it claims to do" thread. Personally, I think "Socratic method" is a bad way of describing the typical TAC classroom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_667" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a history with the troll. Some of us have already had a 1000 comment thread with Scott (Peregrine) with some amazing discussion (on the alumni side) and absolutely no movement on his side. In fact, he escalates. The first time I engaged with him out of charity (to find the truth; to instruct the ignorant; and to down play his publicly offensive comments -- especially about the founders) but now I just don't engage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^You take the high road^<br />Some of us slog through the mud</p>
</li>
<li id="post_669" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, let me ask you a question:<br />What are the boasts of TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_670" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger It's such a long thread, I don't know what you assert, question, or wonder about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hardly tangential since it is the method claimed by tac grads and tutors. I raised both criticisms and alternatives. The lack of interested inquiry raises further concerns to the tac method vs. the Dumb Ox method which welcomed questions, considered and met objections, and took all sides like aristotle of any argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_672" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">>> I raised both criticisms and alternatives.<<<br />How can one respond to them if he can't find them? Or easily read the context?<br />That's why I say this thread is TOO LONG.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_673" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am sorry they are lost in the whirl of dead horse beatings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the TAC method is what again?<br />(edit: 700!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the boasts mb are scattered on this thread but why should i respond when tempered serious questions are ignored?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_676" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I'm being serious, for once.<br />John Ruplinger I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So is this "I won't respond because you won't"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">d probably agree with much of what you say. I could give you serius and reasonable replies. But the thread is too long.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_679" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-20T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Given that the troll is absent, I am willing to participate in a real discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was going to try to give you a serious response, but I think your question needs questioning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John asked about the Socratic method. He asked if there are any examples of dialogues between only 2 young people. He is opposing that to the teacher crafting a discussion with one person he is drawing out the lesson with.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe John was also one who put forward that learning is more passive than active (but that might have been the Ignatian education person above -- no idea of name now). The root of his question was whether or not the method used at TAC was effective (or even legit)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_683" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am really confused on why John hasn't restated his own questions since you have all asked him to in various ways. But there you go. He can now say I am misrepresenting him (or not)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC isn't the socratic method. It is more like the "dumb ox" he described above except all the scattered opinions and objections are from different sides of the table, since none of us have the wherewithal to keep it all in one mind</p>
</li>
<li id="post_685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would also say it varies from one tutor to another (and that is more true now than when I attended in 1990's). I have heard some shocking stories about how some classrooms are run. So -- it is hard to say "TAC does this" when tutors have their own flavour.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO ONE QUESTION (except mb). I wont say mb because if memory serves u didnt make them and i dont expect u to defend another's brag. To Jason i cannot write 700 words from a phone. My guess is it starts at post 616</p>
</li>
<li id="post_687" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-20T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Qua! Qua! Qua!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_688" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Ben Limehouse" data-date="2014-08-20T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ben Limehouse at 2014-08-20T13:04:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ That's the mating call of the second semester TAC sophomore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_689" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-20T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is neither Socratic method nor Scholastic method. It is Buchanan/Adler method, for better or for worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_690" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-20T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:11:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think John Ruplinger raises some good questions. John Senior makes a similar point in his thinly veiled polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian Culture. Mr Berquist too, was ready to concede the faults of the seminar method, especially for theology (and indeed the theology tutorial when taught by Berquist or Neumayr was de facto a lecture). On the other hand, the seminar method is very good for certain things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_691" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-20T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do think it would be much better if TAC stopped claiming to be "Socratic" anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_692" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Shannon Williams" data-date="2014-08-20T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Shannon Williams at 2014-08-20T13:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This ought to become a singles meet and greet forum, it'd be more fruitful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_693" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-20T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the seminar method is Socratic in the sense of "de-sedimentizing" concepts which people assume they understand when they don't. On the other hand, lead by a skilled tutor, it is an exciting way of uncovering what is implicit in what people already know, and in making distinct what they know confusedly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-20T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(For both of the above see: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../charles-de-koninck.../)<br />Charles De Koninck, Jacob Klein, and Socratic Logocentrism<br />sancrucensis.wordpress.com<br />The bi-lingual Quebecois journal Laval théologique et philosophique, has recently uploaded its archives to the web. This was the organ of Laval School Thomism, and the early issues contain lots of ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_695" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-20T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both in philosophy and in theology learning consists largely in making distinct what one already knows confusedly; in philosophy what one knows by "common conceptions" (see blogpost linked above), and in theology what one knows by the sensus fidelium (see: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_696" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-20T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's the bell for vespers. I'm sure this thread will still be alive tomorrow, so till then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_697" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T13:17:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks to Matthew J. Peterson's wording in the header for the thesis title slideshow, we now have a thread with a higher word count than most of those thesis papers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA -- why do you say that about dropping Socratic? (curious)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_699" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-20T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Pater I think that's an awfully stretched sense of "Socratic" but I won't go into it further while you are vespering and thus unable to defend yourself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_700" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-20T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T13:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unfollowing this thread. Good luck!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_701" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T13:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Escalante is right. The closest I ever experienced to "Socratic" at TAC was me explaining props to others stuck at the board in Euclid. Other than that, it was more of discussion method, again, for better or worse, and not counting Neumayr or Berquist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_702" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T13:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was, fondly, a little like Meno</p>
</li>
<li id="post_703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my response vanished. I will try later. Reread if u will my questions if u have time. Reconsider. I'll restate them better later. For now. Why was he called the Dumb Ox? Thanks for the the thoughtful responses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_704" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-20T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-20T14:31:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always thought that a lot of the intra-TAC anguish about the program came from misleading advertising, as it were. People think that TAC proposes no positive teaching and that everything is left to students to discuss and decide for themselves, ala St. John's but with 4 years of "theology" tutorials. This was decidedly not my experience. At least not after the first two years.<br />The classroom method itself varies from tutor to tutor and it isn't really Socratic in any sense that Socrates (or even a law professor) would recognize.<br />Nor are the great books or the discussion methods the primary purpose of the school--at least not per Berquist or Neumayr. Some people bewailed this--too much Thomas, too much lecturing, not enough wonder. Personally, I was never much bothered by the fact that the school had an official (or quasi-official) doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_705" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-20T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T14:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm blocking Peregrine and unfollowing this thread. Sorry for any bad impressions I gave. I speak for myself and not on behalf of TAC or all TAC graduates, although I am much more thankful for my time there now than I used to be. This "conversation," however, is mostly sound and fury - and I just remembered that I will have to answer for every idle word, as will we all.<br />I wish you all the best - God bless and good luck. Keep the Faith!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_706" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:01:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">For those who are actually still interested in the Socratic method, Mr Berquist left us this explanation: http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-libera.../why-socratic-method<br />Why the Discussion (Socratic) Method? | Thomas Aquinas College<br />www.thomasaquinas.edu<br />One of the distinguishing features of Thomas Aquinas College is its Discussion Method of teaching. Though the technique is as old as Socrates, it has never been in vogue. Nor is it today. The vast majority of colleges here and abroad use the lecture method. Yet what Socrates saw in it over 2,000 yea…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neumayr (Sorry pedantry)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_708" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And reading another Berquist lecture (Learning & Discipleship) he says this (which pertains to this fb discussion): "given the reputations of such lecturers {notorious dissenters and intellectual rogues}, those who attend might come expecting an intellectual brawl—them against us—and under such circumstances learning does not ordinarily take place. From disagreement, yes; from a brawl, less commonly." link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/.../Aquinas_Rev...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone should compile a quotable Berquist page. It might not be as popular as a quotable Molly Gustin one but much more valuable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ack! That was the first TAC lecture of my freshman year! That caused a veritable poo-storm among the stiff-necked and unruly student body</p>
</li>
<li id="post_711" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:10:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hilarious: "Some of you, perhaps, will go back to your rooms and listen to the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones on your phonographs, and we regret that profoundly." (phonographs!!!??) Mr Berquist lecture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-20T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Classic rock</p>
</li>
<li id="post_713" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the first confrontation I had with the head prefect was me listening to Minor Threat as loud as the stereo would go with the door locked. fun times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_714" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joe Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-20T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-20T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Margaret Grimm Blackwell this was a few hundred comments ago, but here is an online copy. https://drive.google.com/.../0B0_uLICa.../edit...<br />Zepeda_Joseph_Raphael Senior Thesis.pdf - Google Drive<br />docs.google.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_715" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-20T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-20T17:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shannon you are my favorite</p>
</li>
<li id="post_716" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-20T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-20T17:50:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">For some reason I see this thread going on for so long and becoming so huge that eventually it will subsume all of the internets into itself. <br />I think it may be the action of the world spirit coming to know itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_717" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jonathan Monnereau" data-date="2014-08-20T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Monnereau at 2014-08-20T18:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Behold! The Leviathan!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I appreciate the thoughts and consideration but i see little interest in discussion. I like TAC and all and am prone to hypercriticism. Several comments help me to understand better the situation. And hopefully the storm of post 666 is over.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_719" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sean Plus" data-date="2014-08-20T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Plus at 2014-08-20T18:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Schniederjan Can someone summarize this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_720" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-20T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T18:16:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">A lengthy demonstration of the difference between discussion, debate, and thermonuclear troll warfare.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_721" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T18:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, according to the wiki, lighting a troll on fire is the preferred method...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_722" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-20T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-20T18:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or turn them into stone by drawing them into an argument so long that the sun comes up?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_723" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">go home Sceregritt Bonwienventureburg, you're drunk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you misspelled "gangsta" too. you really need spell check</p>
</li>
<li id="post_725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hence the straw man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">more straw men. Are you a farmer? Did they make scarecrows up in Canada?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_727" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we have it on the grand authority of Scottrine Wienventure that they don't. Why argue with such an august interlocutor, master of repetition, insult and bold claim?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_728" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T20:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can't do it. My tolerance for smarmy, self-satisfied, obnoxious, assume-what-you-prove, douchebaggery is limited. <br />Real discussion is impossible, because things get way twisted through his pathological neurosis regarding TAC. I don't need to convince him, waste of time, but caution against anyone taking him seriously. The notion that he "just wants to know" blew out the window many threads ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_729" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-20T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-20T20:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">finally realized what this thread reminded me of http://online.wsj.com/.../SB10001424127887324904004578539...<br />A Different Take on Reality TV: 18 Hours of Swimming Salmon<br />online.wsj.com<br />Norwegians love their boring shows, from the progress of a ferry boat to a 30-hour interview.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_730" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Peter Halpin" data-date="2014-08-20T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Peter Halpin at 2014-08-20T20:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You all need to do something else. <br />http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh7tgX_Uaqs<br />ANCHORMAN Brick Killed A Guy<br />hahahahahahahahahaha i dont own this. But this OWNS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-20T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't trying to illuminate the faith, o pseudonymous troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_732" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T00:58:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">"An Exception to Godwin's Law: On the Absence of Reductio ad Hitlerum Arguments in Long and Rancorous Online Discussions of the Titles of Undergraduate Theses From Small Catholic Liberal Arts Colleges"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_733" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:03:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">So many comments, and I still think Aaron Gigliotti had the best one: "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_734" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante, I agree that the meaning of "Socratic" is being a bit streched in my comment above, but not more than "Socratic" is usually streched.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_735" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh so *I'm* a scoffer but Mr Gigliotti isnt. I see how it is, Pater</p>
</li>
<li id="post_736" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do think Joel HF has a good point about how some of the SJC inspired promotional material that the college uses is slightly misleading.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_737" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's how a real scoffer summarized the theology tutorial at TAC (I'm not making this up):<br />«Freshman year the TACer reads the Bible and thinks "OMG this book is confusing; I'm glad I never have to read it again."<br />Sophomore year he reads Augustine against the Pelagians and thinks, "OMG this is depressing! I'm probably going to Hell and can do nothing about it; I hate theology!"<br />Junior year he reads the Prima Pars and thinks: "OMG! This makes so much sense!! I LOVE St Thomas!!!!! This is real theology! I'm never going to read anything except St Thomas ever again!!!! Thank you TAC for introducing me to this amazing writer! I Love my college!"» </sarcasm></p>
</li>
<li id="post_738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But JA, were you thinking of something like Joel's point when you said TAC should avoid calling what it does in any way "Socratic," or did you have something else in mind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_739" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's more than slightly misleading; it verges on false advertising, kind of like the non-existent horses in the old pamphlets from the 90s. But TAC itself is very confused about what it's up to. Contra the FB personage whom I still think might be Peterson in disguise, TAC most definitely teaches theology, lots of it, it just does much of that surreptitiously. Here's the thing: SJC has as the aim of the class to have thought well about something. TAC *says* that too, but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of something. This certainly involves theology; except that its position as regina sc is very oddly related to the SJC method TAC imported. Too often,what one ends up with is neither fish nor fowl.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_740" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basically, TAC classes and method are to Catholic wisdom what the State is to the Church on the Maritain model. Checkmate, Pater</p>
</li>
<li id="post_741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But this is where I think my pet theory about the analogy of confused knowledge in philosophy and theology comes in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_742" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:19:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say more. I think Matthew gets cash from FB if this hits 800.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_743" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What TAC really understands itself as doing (but alas this doesn't come across in the promotional material), is peripatetic discussion. Recall that Aristotle's works were not strictly lecture notes as the many foolishly assert, but actually discussion outlines for walking around and talking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_744" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">um why did we never stroll for class then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_745" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:21:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because we were co-ed and girls like to chat sitting down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_746" class="entry even" data-likes="11" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:21:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">so, TAC understands itself AS A ROSARY WALK? It all makes sense now!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_747" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"peripatetic" ahem ahem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_748" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but seriously...TAC half-understands what its doing as peripatetic discussion. But it also half-understands itself as teaching Catholic wisdom. It just leaves the relation of those two in practice to ad hoc improv on the part of tutors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_749" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">No but seriously: here's my theory in philosophy learning is a matter of making distinct the very certain but confused and implicit knowledge that we have of the world. Ch. 1 of the Physics and all that jazz... Theology is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic tradition: "Thus the Apostles had the fullness of revealed knowledge, a fullness which they could as little realize to themselves, as the human mind, as such, can have all its thoughts present before it at once." (Newman) So there is no opposition between paripatetic discussion and Catholic Wisdom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_750" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there are several questions you've raised. What is TAC doing? (good question) Does TAC understand what it is doing? (I kind of think who cares to this one -- except when it comes to final cause) and most importantly, Is what it is doing effective?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_751" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Theology is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic tradition" Pater Edmund<br />Is that you or Newman talking? I kind of agree. Except it sounds more accurate to say seminal in place of 'confused'.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_752" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if Newman said that… I might have to just agree. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_753" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante writes "SJC has as the aim of the class to have thought well about something. TAC *says* that too, but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of something." I think that is precisely the difference between socratic and peripatetic discussion. SJC is Socratic; TAC is peripatetic. So I agree that the Perpatetic Socratic amounts to false advertising.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_754" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody Haaf Garneau: the "confused" part was from me; I'm OK with seminal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_755" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, no opposition between peripatetic method and the substance of Catholic wisdom. But TAC isn't entirely peripatetic; it has time constraints and wants to get at the truth in a hurry if necessary. We've all seen this, and it's bad. It would be better and more honest to just lecture in that case. Too, TAC isn't just method; its a curriculum, and the curriculum as it stands doesn't really have theology as regina scientiarum; it sort of can't. Like I said, it's in more of a Maritainian State to Church relation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, theology is Regina in two senses: the other sciences are ordered to her, and she is the judge of them. I think the TAC curriculum embodies the former and towards the end gets you to see the later, but without actually embodying the later much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_757" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what TAC is trying to do is nearly impossible (and very heroic!) because the students are for the most part poorly prepared to receive it. So not only do they want to achieve a certain level of learning by the end, but they have to prepare the foundation in the students (or even more -- remove the impediments to learning) before proceeding. It is remarkable what they can do with a class of mostly publicly educated students in modern America in merely 4 years.<br />The learning model they emulate (classical model) never had such an uphill battle to fight.<br />I bristle at the accusation of the arrogance of the founders because the older I become, the more I am in awe of their humility to be willing to read and let me (and my classmates) make attempts at discussions on such lofty matters. Seriously -- maybe I could have benefited from more lectures -- but not really in the long run.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But flesh out the Maritain Church/State analogy a bit more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean there's no architectonic relation. The curriculum is self-standing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not saying that people can't put it all together; they can and do. But it's not built into the ratio studiorum</p>
</li>
<li id="post_761" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">anyhow we all know that the REAL regina scientiarum at TAC is math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_762" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean consider: no one really gets thrown out for not cutting it in freshman theology; freshman math is the only severe criterion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_763" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Berquist - Steadman Dialogue is very relevant here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_764" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_765" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well Pater earlier you said "Physics and all that jazz"...and comparing the Physics to jazz would get you excommunicated by Berquist in a jiffy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_766" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_767" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes Mr Berquist had a clear conception of what he was up to. I'd just say that TAC as a whole never did, and never consistently embodied that "tutorial" idea</p>
</li>
<li id="post_769" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_770" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, that I would agree with—particularly the admissions office and its propaganda never really understood the Berquist vision, or at least never really conveyed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Berquist Steadman dialogue is here BTW:<br />http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED216573.pdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_772" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That dialogue is kind of funny. It would have gone better if Mr Berquist could have done the questioning of the interviewer. I think that poor man had no idea how far off base his questions and semi-conclusions were.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(82, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">by poor man, I mean Steadman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_774" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:53:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">We used to do dramatic readings of that dialogue in the dorm late at night...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_775" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But even Mr Berquist never managed to make theology loom large; "theology" in TAC practice meant bits of Thomas, not read in particularly useful order. Seriously, how many TAC grads came out being able to say anything about, for instance, the question of infused contemplation (unless they chose to write a thesis on it)? But that kind of thing is crucial to Catholic theology. Or, how many could name the theories of Incarnation, and which of them are considered orthodox and which aren't?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_776" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">... after discovering it in a library sale.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_777" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that dialogue is the paradigm of the experience of the Guest Lecturer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_778" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember going over to the Berquists house once (I think sophomore year) and Mrs B asked me" "What's your favorite class this year?" I hesitated and Mr B said "You're supposed to say theology."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_779" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had the best theology tutors. That helps a lot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think you're right that he wasn't entirely successful in getting theology to loom as large as he wanted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_781" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier, Berquist, MacArthur x 2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_782" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you guys aren't getting what he is saying about the 'whole' -- there are different ways for theology to be primary. It is that to which the program is ordered. Being the #1 reason for failing isn't one of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_783" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">817: tell us about the cash Matthew J. Peterson—how much did you get?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody Haaf Garneau, no that's true, but the fact that so many more graduates seem to want to study philosophy than theology in grad school —is that actually true? or am I just making that up? Idk —anyway, if it is true it would support JA's point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_785" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T02:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does it? It might be more a sign of their maturity after 4 years. Or the practical options for grad school. (options for financial opportunities or lack of are likely similar)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_786" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough: http://youtu.be/TjHbuPkUKUY?t=6m26s<br />How to Become a Superstar Student at Thomas Aquinas College</p>
</li>
<li id="post_787" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T02:13:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I created a fan page for this thread.<br />https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever<br />The Neverending Thread<br />This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.<br />Community: 57 like this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel's first sarcastic comment above is now becoming kind of true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_789" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T02:19:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel the Development Office could use this. "Alumni involvement extremely high"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T02:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You were serious Jason!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_791" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T02:26:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Latest post on this thread's fanpage.<br />----------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Questions for Socratic discussion:<br />1) Is the Neverending Thread a part of Sacred Theology per se or per accidens?<br />2) What is its relation to Aristotle's doctrine of the eternity of the heavens?<br />3) Would Fabre consider it an organism?<br />4) If the Thread goes on forever, can it be bisected?<br />5) Is it a continuous quantity, or an ensemble of discrete units?<br />6) What would the Founding Fathers have said about it? <br />7) Would you like to go with me for a rosary walk?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T02:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we are all bored. Or have really big things to do like Edward's thesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://soundcloud.com/sancrucensis/marcus-berquist-common</p>
</li>
<li id="post_794" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T02:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been reflecting on the current discussion and some previous remarks by the troll and I have come to this: <br />It seems to me that the fullness of theology and the assent unto is found in the mass, and nowhere else. (This is taught, perhaps more clearly, or at least more often, in the Eastern tradition). The fulness of the faith does not consist in a body of written (or unwritten) doctrine. Perhaps this is why Our Lord says, "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed..."<br />That being said, the study of Sacred Doctrine in a formalized manner can and ought to advance one's relationship with God. We do not study contemplation in a formalized way, because it is not the sort of thing that really can be, unless one is brought to it by God. The reason for this is that teaching properly involves only the ordering of concepts in the order of learning so that the student's intellect can properly receive them. A teacher cannot, properly speaking, move the will. A teacher can (and probably should) do certain things to attempt to positively dispose the will of the student, but in the end, the will can only be moved by God. Thus, Pater Edmund, when Berquist said that Theology ought to be your answer when asked "What is your favorite class' maybe that is because your response said more about you and the disposition of your will. <br />This is a dangerous type of argument to make, namely, "If you were good enough you would realize how good something is, and if you're not, then you won't." However, given the excellence of the course material that we study in theology, I feel confident in making such an argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_795" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T02:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Further, JA Escalante, I object to the position that the admissions office never really got what the school was about. At least when my father-in-law, Tom Susanka was head of admissions I know that he would confer with the founders, particularly McArthur and Berquist about the school and what was essential to it, often. There are few alive today, I believe, who have a better appreciation of what the school is and is supposed to be than my father-in-law. That being said, I am not sure that is true of all those who were/are responsible for advertisement, nor necessarily for the admissions office today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_796" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">At some point Mr Coughlin (dean at the time) decided he had to do something about wrong expectations, and had the admissions people send the blue book to all applicants. It didn't make much difference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_797" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is ... a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord." http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10moath.htm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_798" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/2dP54XzK1ok<br />Man Faced Ox Progeny - Down Our Way<br />A little clip from 2004 at Thomas Aquinas College. This barbershop quartet was excellent. They could have been big... maybe they still can...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_799" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T02:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We had a great sound.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_800" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T02:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dissertation calls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_801" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T02:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">...and fully assented to the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T02:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T02:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, that's just special pleading. The RCC has always regarded its theology as a textual corpus insofar as it is ecclesia docens</p>
</li>
<li id="post_803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T02:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T02:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but clever move</p>
</li>
<li id="post_804" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is fair. In that regard, i was merely trying to understand how one can take seriously what the troll said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I grant that Mr Susanka knows what the school is about, or what it wants to be about; I think the problem was a) an unintentionally misleading use of "Socratic", and "discussion method" by Admissions, and b) problems inherent in the ratio studiorum which he might not have noticed, or if he did, might have just chalked up to human frailty. No one's fault</p>
</li>
<li id="post_806" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T03:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I'm biased by my own experience. I left TAC for DSPT after two years because I wanted scholastic formation in its proper method. Let me tell you, learning logic (esp John of St Thomas) by lecture method felt like heaven after slogging through the Organon in "discussion method". But TAC still manages to work wonders despite what seems to me its somewhat ramshackle ratio, and I feel mostly patriotic feelings toward it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_807" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T03:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You may be right. Something to think about also: TAC was wholly new. Nothing of its kind ever existed. I suppose we should not be surprised if the ratio and practice differ somewhat. <br />Here is another way to put it: How else could the school explain to people what it was doing? All the terms: "Socratic," "Discussion method," "Peripatetic," etc., all fall short. Socratic, and Discussion method, however, are close and they also are familiar enough in the preexisting academic categories that they seem to be reasonable choices for use.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_808" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T03:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh sure. like I said, no one's fault</p>
</li>
<li id="post_809" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T03:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I agree with Jody that the founders were pretty heroic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T03:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also gained something from the DSPT course on Aristotelian logic. It was good to go back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_811" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T03:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T03:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as aside, we aren't even close to the record for comments on a fb thread. That is: 584,444 (so start splicing those replies I suggest if you want to reach such infamy)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T03:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And still growing. oh boy. 584,447...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_813" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:10:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">still, I bet we beat anything Christendom College has ever done here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_815" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T03:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T03:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still think our word count is higher</p>
</li>
<li id="post_816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T03:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley set out to do 1000. I think that is a noble goal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_817" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T03:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, at least a goal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_818" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T03:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T03:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://m.facebook.com/GoesOnForever<br />The Neverending Thread<br />This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.<br />Community: 57 like this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_819" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T04:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T04:28:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">What!? JA Escalante, you left TAC after TWO YEARS? No wonder you think the ratio studiorum doesn't make sense; the sense doesn't begin to become clear till JUNIOR YEAR. Dude, GO BACK AND FINISH THE PROGRAM AT ONCE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_820" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T04:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T04:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm serious. This explains all the things that have puzzled me about your FB comments. Eg. I now understand your bizarre take on Klein on Descartes: OH! YOU NEVER DID JUNIOR MATH!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_821" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T04:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T04:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is there no "dislike" button on FB? I need to dislike this comment: https://www.facebook.com/matth.../posts/10152587096221508...<br />Only because it reveals that Escalante MISSED OUT. My dear sir, go back, go back, go back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_822" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T04:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T04:44:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I left TAC after four and a half years! I'm ultra qualified!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_823" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-21T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-21T06:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, JA Escalante - there were horses at TAC when I was there ('93 grad) so the advertising material was not misleading. <br />There is a lot I could say on the topic of the TAC program... Now, and on this thread, is probably not the time. <br />I'll just make one parting comment: all these anecdotes about the program of study from one who supposedly attempted it several times and never finished, another who attempted it for two years and quit and another who has never even met a graduate of the program leave me grateful that I learned the limits of personal experiences while studying at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_824" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-21T06:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-21T06:35:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund I think more TACers DO study philosophy than theology post grad, but this may say more about the state of theology grad schools over the past 40 years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_825" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-21T07:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-21T07:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, given how befuddled Stedman et al. were, it is hard to think that one could get the true purpose across in an ad in the National Review. Can you blame the school for, how shall I say ... emphasizing the easier to understand aspects of the curriculum there? After all, plenty of people come year after year expecting little math and lots of literature. The school could hardly be more explicit about exactly what is studied.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T08:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T08:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_827" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T08:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T08:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I wonder if comparing what graduates study after TAC is a fair assessment of the curriculum, or rather it speaks to the type of person who will suffer through 4 years of TAC.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T08:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T08:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">both. Some are predisposed. Others redirected. What else are they good for? (The modern world is unkindly disposed toward a more genuine liberal arts grad. Its a real problem. The traditional jobs are closed off. SJC has other probs but TAC would fit in a more sane world.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_829" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-21T08:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-21T08:37:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember speaking to Dr. Neumayr once when I was in the thick of bearing 6 children and before I went to graduate school to study Theology. <br />He told me I was using my education exactly as it was meant to be used: living my life and being a good Mom. <br />Studying Theology doesn't say a lot about anything. <br />How many graduates are striving for holiness? Teaching the faith to their own children? Volunteering at their parish? Another question entirely....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T08:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T08:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hextuplets!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T09:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do have a response to Marie, but it's better not to say it (it could provoke another good 300 comments) . Suffice it to say her complaint I think is legitimate in my judgement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_832" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T09:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T09:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You read her point as a complaint?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_833" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-21T09:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-21T09:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia (or is it spelled Bethea? ;-)), I think that's true too. And I'd wager there are more TAC alumns w/ STEM post-grad degrees than literature. Could be wrong about that though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T09:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is Ellit? I don't think I had to read him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_835" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's wrong with reading Eliot? or Freud?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_836" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-21T09:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-21T09:31:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just checked, they read Elliot at Christendom too. Is there no college left that will magisterially magisterium the fullness of magisterium?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_837" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Magisterium your magisterial mouth Joel!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tinbergen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_839" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom Phil327..... studies Freud. How cavalier!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_840" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"holistic sacred theology"? Is that like healing crystals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_841" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, I actually picked up a copy of "Curious Naturalists" by Tinbergen at a library book sales a few years back. Really interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_842" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T09:43:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">«The philosophical disciplines are to be taught in such a way that the students are first of all led to acquire a solid and coherent knowledge of man, the world, and of God, relying on a philosophical patrimony which is perennially valid and taking into account the philosophical investigations of later ages. This is especially true of those investigations which exercise a greater influence in their own nations. Account should also be taken of the more recent progress of the sciences. The net result should be that the students, correctly understanding the characteristics of the contemporary mind, will be duly prepared for dialogue with men of their time.» (Vatican II, Optatam Totius)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_843" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:44:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">waaaaaay too magisterial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-21T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T10:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">some of the tutors at TAC are literature Grads. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_845" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T10:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://archive.org/details/LearningAndDiscipleship<br />Learning And Discipleship : Marcus Berquist : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive<br />A lecture at Thomas Aquinas College</p>
</li>
<li id="post_846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so mocking Elliot with pulp movie garbage is sacred holistic crystal healing theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_847" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T10:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">so you're subscribing to the idea that in order to teach something you need to be specifically trained in that subject, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_848" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T10:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">« But where there is no wanting, there is a word.<br />Which word wants not I want.<br />Want which word wants not.<br />The words of this word, my prophecy.<br />A scroll unfolding and rolling up, revealing<br />The beast in the word as the word, and the word<br />Made and the word made man. Yet<br />In the world by word made the word.<br />Honey to tasting, bitter to belly.<br />How shall I speak the end? The end is the word. »</p>
</li>
<li id="post_849" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T10:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">« Much I want to say, unsaid,<br />Unsayable, much I must say,<br />If say anything, but you tire.<br />I should speak in tongues, which,<br />Not knowing, you’d more understand<br />That you misunderstand me. »</p>
</li>
<li id="post_850" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T10:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I have no idea what you're typing about^<br />Does anyone know a literature PhD (preferably English literature, preferably 20th century) to explain this to me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_851" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T11:05:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Related probably to nothing, I have always been struck by Augustine's interpretation of taking the gold from Egypt: All good, true, and beautiful things belong to Christianity. Somethings, to be sure, more evidently than others, but my oh my, what a poor world it would be if theologians did not read Eliot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_852" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:14:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was at TAC WHEN THERE WERE HORSES.<br />When there was only one permanent building!<br />I was there in its hard, gritty days. The frontier days.<br />All these young whippersnappers have only known the luxury of permanent shelters.... Could they quickly saddle up and ride when a lookout cries, "WASC is coming! WASC is coming!"<br />JA Escalante</p>
</li>
<li id="post_853" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Finally, I agree with Peregrine on something!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_854" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">per accidens or per se?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_855" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:20:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Per accidens. I'm an infidel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_856" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ 2nd time I've agreed with him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_857" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I enjoy the poetry of Elliot, but I don't agree with Peregott on principle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_858" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-21T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves<br />Did gyre and gimble in the seminar.<br />All mimsy were the borogoves,<br />And the mome raths cried "Qua!!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_859" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T11:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty sure i was i was excommunicated by pope peregrine. It was invalid though and he didnt usf the book ,bell and candle even. Why me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_860" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T11:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're not missing much. He's just quoting Elliot right now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_861" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T13:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, you suggested above that it is dangerous for one's soul to study theology unless one has taken the Evangelical Councils. I would like to see some discussion of this. What do people think? Is it OK for lay-people and diocesan priests to study theology? Or should it be the exclusive preserve of vowed religious as JR suggests? Surely everyone has to know SOME theology, but I guess that JR meant that only religious should study it scientifically. John Ruplinger: do you think that liberal arts colleges whose students are lay people ought to have no theology classes. What exactly is the claim here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_862" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's quite the dig at TAC tutors: "unemployable Renaissance man masquerading as a Victorian man of leisure (without inheritance)"<br />perhaps some might say that educating is a higher calling. But someone whose main thrust is "magisterium magisterium magisterium" wouldn't understand that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">to restate: say what you will about the merits or drawbacks of the curriculum, style, culture etc. of TAC, but to personally attack the people working there seems a new low</p>
</li>
<li id="post_864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, not new</p>
</li>
<li id="post_865" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should revise that. I agree with the old school that theology ought to be limited for lay folks. I haven't studied the matter. I only see the effects. I certainly wouldn't limit Diocesan priests. They, however, are under a stricter obedience and generally have the faculty of preaching from the bishop. So its not so much Evangelical Councils. I see big problems with the proliferation of lay theologians (lots of mini-popes we have these days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_866" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like Peregrott Weinavenburg?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_867" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC introduces theology. We don't want to enter into a 2000 comment thread with a bunch of amateur know it all theologians like me. Suffice to say I used to like Newman a bunch. I still love his little essay on Elementary Education: it's brilliant and thought provoking. However, I regard his development (written while Anglican) as condemned and very very dangerous (by the Syllubus of St. Pius IX). Watch out for fireworks now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LIS I was ANATHEMITIZED (pretty sure) by pope Peregrinne (amateur lay theologian). SO what does Peregrine think of the distinction of remote vs. proximate Magesterium. What is the Magisterium? THAT might clear up a lot of the troll beatings going on here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you cannot get him to define it. It has been tried. Any question on that front provokes the "see TAC doesn't teach sacred theology" again.<br />and again<br />and again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has he read Pastor Aeternus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">beats me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_872" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-21T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T13:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would argue that Dei Verbum in fact endorses Bl. John Henry Newman's theology of development (which is what lead him out of Anglicanism). What part do you think is irreconcilable with the Syllabus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's his understanding of development</p>
</li>
<li id="post_874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's condemned by the Syllabus almost verbatim at points.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doctrines are not "developed" like Newman says</p>
</li>
<li id="post_877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rather they are the same in the beginning as now, some literally the same; others indistinctly as you Pater Edmund) note in your essay linked elsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem with Newman's development:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is that it opens the door to changing doctrines which is impossible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">((((shhhhh....... Dei Verbum has some probs...... but I haven't read it in a long while))))))) I remember when I taught Scripture the first time, I went digging in Dei Verbum and others more recent. I was very disappointed because I was clueless as to WHAT the Church teaches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I had read more closely Providentissimus Deus because it's very very clear there and so helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not so much like seeds, Pater Edmund, as it is like an already sapling tree that grows new branches with time. The problem with development (as modernly understand) is that it is an easy tool for the full blown modernists to use to overturn unchangeable doctrine: they do it and they have done it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_883" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-21T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T13:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought Newman's development was not that something that was doctrine could no longer be doctrine but rather along the lines of the development of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (and the development of understanding and clarity within different doctrines)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But did the Immaculate Conception ever "develop" or was it always there but merely debated??? that is the question (edit: the only development would be with our better understanding of conception and more certitude as to when the soul comes into existence)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clarity, yes. Development, no. Read the Syllabus of Errors. Some of what passes as standard fare is condemned in it (and rightly because it leads to CHANGE of doctrine which is impossible because Truth cannot change over time)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_886" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T13:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The history of theology is nothing but development on our end - but - even worse! - it is development ever born of heresy, and reaction to heresy before it is even determined to be such, and after - heresy which is new every morning and thus timeless! And this development is born of crisis, amidst brutal and emotional politics, and intertwined with so much other than the pursuit of truth in the abstract: much like, for instance, this very thread.<br />And yet our view of the Truth does change over time: and this is a traditional thing to say, because it is manifestly true, and does not entail that what truly is changes with our whims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's Newman's take which everyone now says.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am only an amateur.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my opinion there are NO real theologians anymore not one. (or very very few). THIS on the authority of that tiara I gots on my head right now. So there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_891" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T13:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Development, clarity -- they can mean the same. Refining things that have always been seminally there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_892" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T13:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think over *most* of the first 1000 years most would actually have agreed with Newman, although they might have put it differently - and this difference in language might signify more - and put you more at ease. But have to run.<br />Pull back up at the bar here on my way home.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no seminales. There's a difference between indistinct and something that can morph. (this is to Jody Haaf.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And answering very real questions that were never asked until circumstances changed, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No that is the question Matthew, and I am just not well enough read. Let's just say that Newman's theory was on the chop block in his day. There were propositions almost verbatim in the Syllabus. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, even assuming some bit of development that is legitimate, it has now morphed into something different: a real change of doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_896" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wherefore, Pius X brought in the hammer of all hammer's of the synthesis of all heresies, PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS. Yeah, I'll take some of that please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That isn't how I read Newman. But that would be a whole other thread to do a reading!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Jody. I used to not either........ It may be that my pendulum has swung a bit to far in the other direction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But when you figure out who and what the modernists are, that'll happen to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(modernists as defined in Pascendi of course: theological modernists)_</p>
</li>
<li id="post_901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess someone could misapply Newman's principles but that doesn't make him in error on this. Apparently that has happened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO. no no. Propositions in that work are explicitly and almost (with the same words) condemned by Syllabus of Errors. Remember he wrote that as still an Anglican.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was not made to recant but his book was on the chopping block and moreover it was REFUTED by someone here in the States whose name I forget (and I haven't read).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">less like a sapling, John, and more like the blooming of a flower.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's get all poetical and sh*t</p>
</li>
<li id="post_906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose I'll take back my analogy (but I didn't start it).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_907" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I am a little befuddled by the supposed condemnation of Newman. Joshua Kenz would know better than I. That being said, Newman would hold that The Immaculate Conception was in some way believed by all for all time. Certainly the Church clarified her teaching on the matter and that is why it was so defined. <br />John, I think you are right that the notion of development has gotten out of hand, but that is hardly reason to reject it as true. It may be reason to stop teaching it so much, however. (Here I am reminded of Cardinal Pell's remarks about the primacy of conscience. With regard to this he said that was certainly true, but people clearly can't handle it, so let's stop talking about it. A good pastoral move, if you ask me.) <br />I am of the same mind with regard to lay theologians. I think they have an important place in the Church, and I think many of them have made positive contributions to the Church. I think Pope Francis is right to combat clericalism. The gifts of the Spirit are not determined by whether or not one belongs to an order. <br />That being said, lay theologian can and should be subject to the Bishop insofar as they teach theology. Indeed, insofar as they teach theology they are sharing in the bishop's pastoral duty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_908" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the general edification of the masses: <br />https://docs.google.com/.../0BxhNFgNx8xzUOWZmYzBkNTg.../edit<br />Waldstein- on the Religious sense.mp3 - Google Drive<br />docs.google.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_909" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">can somebody please change their profile pic? All these Arabic "n"s are getting confusing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_910" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clearly you hate persecuted Christians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_911" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, just lay theologians</p>
</li>
<li id="post_912" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Michael, I got carried away having read too much trollese.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_913" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ouch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_914" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">A very basic knowledge is all that is needed: the cartoon of static stasis is absurd.<br />What serious aspect of the Faith since Christ ascended wasn't hammered out by human beings confronting heresy that wasn't even understood as heresy yet?<br />Where has there NOT been development?<br />This fear of development reveals an failure to comprehend theology itself.<br />From St. Peter grappling with *whether non-Jews could even become Christians at all* on out to the right understanding of the Trinity. <br />We all need to take some meat with our milk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oooooooooouuuuch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John -- can you support your claim that ODCD was condemned? Does this mean I have to go read ODCD and PDG side-by-side and it will be self evident? Nothing more than that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you got me Matthew. But would you say that the apostles didn't understand that Christ was the same substance as the Father until LATER WAS invented the word homoousios? [what I meant to say, Matthew]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_918" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Knowing, understanding, and naming are all different steps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_919" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well - I don't know - they didn't need to. Others later on did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, READ the Syllabus. Save it. It's short. Just ask yourself whether you believe these things condemned or not. I have it on very very good authority that his book was suspect of heresy. If you really want I can look it up, but my time on the internet is very short. I know one author who does a most excellent job, but some might not be able to handle the MEAT that he feeds </p>
</li>
<li id="post_921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fixed it Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_922" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha. I'm not trying to slam you or anyone else. I just get grumpy. There is an easy ideology of static stasis in some Christian circles that needs to be thoroughly disinfected.<br />The Syllabus of Errors and some grumpy Popes are not answer books for all time to be used as two dimensional standards of ideas - the syllabus is composed of general condemnations culled out of context from prior and complicated events and writings, as Newman points out.<br />But really, as even a cursory history of doctrine makes clear, councils don't meet and decide what people should believe in the midst of flowering fields: they are called to respond to need, and the messy demands of fragile human beings in very flawed communities trying to figure out what the hell to do and think about what's good and true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_923" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I AM NOT STATIC NO NO NO NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_924" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have jettisoned more opinions than many minions of TAC hold in a lifetime.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_925" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-21T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take the minion thing as a compliment... They're cute </p>
</li>
<li id="post_926" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">never seen it #tooold</p>
</li>
<li id="post_927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">SCREW THAT. Grumpy popes man. Now i</p>
</li>
<li id="post_928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">am taking off the gloves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_929" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look - I think key here is why one even needs a Holy Spirit guarantee for the Church, as Prot's need for the individual. It ain't because this all works out purty-like: otherwise, what's the need.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Time for good old fashioned bronze knuckles a la Homeric boxing rules.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_931" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Menin aeide thea Ruplingeri</p>
</li>
<li id="post_932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the Holy Spirit does not guarantee</p>
</li>
<li id="post_933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which hurled the souls of strong lay theologians into the house of Hades?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">EVERY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">council............................most were FALSE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like grumpy Popes too. But not sure how effective they are or have been though. Internal reform is more a matter of doing and restructuring than it is of yelling about error interlectually speaking from on high. That didn't stop the Reformation nor the Enlightenment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THAT IS THE PROBLEM MATTHEW. because they denounce error, they appear to us as grumpy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_938" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">right, Matthew, let's just go with I'm okay, you're okay</p>
</li>
<li id="post_939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FALSE PERSPECTIVE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">PLEASE, Matthew, you of all people should be recommending Pope Barney the purple dinosaur.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_941" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To clarify, I use "Holy Spirit guarantee" a bit tongue in cheek. What that actually means doctrinally is a complicated business.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pope Pius X was a lamb, a lamb I tell you. Pascendi is what happens when you tear his sheep to pieces. The lamb has teeth and a roar then. That's real "pastoral" for you viz. Pascere in Latin, like the first word of his document. The intro. to that document is great and MANLY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(91, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">none of the new fad limp wristed crap.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not recommending "I'm OK, you're OK", fwiw<br />What did the Syllabus accomplish other than making present day trads feel good whenever they trot it out?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_945" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">silly. That document helped lead me from confusion to understand what tradition is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't born in a cave. I only choose to live there now </p>
</li>
<li id="post_947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, do you see the need for many of the modern encyclicals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_948" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it helped lead to the VII myself, and the very parts that the defenders of the Syllabus hate most of all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_949" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just call me Supertroll if you will................</p>
</li>
<li id="post_950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, if I need to start a fire. Is that what you mean. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(putting my tiara back on) You have it all backwards Matthew. nononono. I just don't know what I can say to help you see things otherwise. I don't know whether we can come to an agreement on things. And perhaps, talking about it from this angle is unhelpful.....since we're debating from conclusions and not premises.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_952" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">uhm, there were no "rad trads" during Pius IX's pontificate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I have read almost every VII and many of Paul VI documents and JPII. Especially the former I've combed through many in Latin. WE HAVE AT THE LEAST very very serious problems with writing precisely....but I'm afraid more than that too. As von Hildebrand pointed out (in a letter to Michael Davies long after he wrote Trojan Horse), we do not have to accept most of these documents (they do not have the kind of authority folks thing they do ---- that's the pastoral provision, esp. in the nota previa). Anywho, hope I don't "scandalize" too many. But we've got really really serious problems that aren't just because trads are crunchy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">right because trad = catholics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's the heresy being fought in Lumen Fidei?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's just that many many non-trads are not catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^you're one of them^?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lumen Fidei?????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what doctrine is being defined, or heresy fought?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's stupid Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's just a question</p>
</li>
<li id="post_963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so I guess you're saying "none"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is Lumen Fidei? What is your question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, it is an encyclical. What is the point of it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I didn't read that. I haven't read new Encycs in a few years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_968" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(wink wink- nudge nudge) don't assume we're all always arguing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe I should ask everyone:<br />WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE ENCYCLICAL, LUMEN FIDEI?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">indeed.............what is the point? that is often the question. Do we have more or less clarity. It's like an "undevelopment" of the faith. i just want a brick wall I can beat my head against sometimes when I look at the confused world. Does anyone read Jacob Klein's "ON PRECISION" anymore. Great piece: explains everything you need to know about so much that is written.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose "love is the core of faith" is probably important to focus on, St. Paul didn't say too much about it. (this is sarcasm) (edited to make sarcasm more clear)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.............. I wonder why</p>
</li>
<li id="post_973" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T14:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^...sorry, what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_974" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe I can't distinguish sarcasm from reality anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_975" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:01:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">in other news, I just popped open Newman to give you guys his five definitions for "development" and then you moved on so I am a little disappointed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_976" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">life IS disappointment </p>
</li>
<li id="post_977" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks for the update, Buddha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_978" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just kidding. I think that's from Princess Bride, I haven't read Buddha. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_979" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">... I was just ribbing you, sir, haha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_980" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">1052</p>
</li>
<li id="post_981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On Faith. Here's a pretty good explanation. I DON"T know why everything needs to be brought up date, unless that just means brought up to our current state of absolute frickin unbelievable state of confusion. http://www.cin.org/.../ebooks/master/trent/tcreed00.htm<br />THE CATECHISM OF TRENT: The Creed -- Introduction<br />www.cin.org<br />The Catechism of Trent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_982" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can I wax nostalgic for 1 page encyclicals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_983" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or is that too "grumpy pope"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just started reading the Catechism of Trent a few months ago AND if that isn't precisely like the remedy for our age, I don't know what is. very precise (and hard hitting) and YES MICHAEL WHY ARE THEY ALL SO DAMN RAMBLING LONG!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't rambling the criticism by Garagou Lagrange of a certain dissertaion of a certain.......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_986" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm<br />UNAM SANCTAM<br />www.papalencyclicals.net<br />Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims:…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_987" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T15:12:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina: POST THEM.<br />This is the thread that *never* ends - so we don't "move on" or "move back" here.<br />Put aside your time bound anxieties here on the thread that never ends, Nina Rachele<br />Post.<br />Post and be free.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are 5 senses of "development of ideas" which Newman thinks can be used in Christian Doctrine: political, logical, historical, moral, and metaphysical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">...............theological ???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">who is Nina Gapinski? and will they feel uncomfortable being tagged in this post?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson: we move in a circle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_992" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">the eternal return of the same, a wise fellow remarked 900 comments ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_993" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T15:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Nina Rachele - tagged wrong person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_994" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love GRUMPY OLD POPES. DEAR GOD, PLEASE GRANT US AGAIN YOUR GRUMPY OLD POPES. UNAM SANCTAM is short and sweet </p>
</li>
<li id="post_995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"[...] metaphysical developments; I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea contemplated, and terminate in its exact and complete delineation [...] in the sacred provinces of theology, the mind may be employed in developing the solemn ideas, which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning powers." pg 52, Ch1 section 9</p>
</li>
<li id="post_996" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No worries, Mr. Peterson, I just thought she might be a little surprised to be tagged...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really miss the stakeburnings too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a big "huh?" next to most of the ethical development passage... "Ethical developments are not properly matter for argument and controversy, but are natural and personal, substituting what is congruous, pious, appropriate, generous, for strictly logical inference." pg 47 ch 1 section 6. The main example he gives later is "The Holy Eucharist" which I think refers generally to the development whereby He was reserved in the Tabernacle, and then the later development of Eucharistic adoration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_999" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't need to quote historical developments, it just means finding the right dates of things that happened in Scripture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is Newman, post Syllabus Errorum, trying to undermine said syllabus: http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f057_Newman_2.htm<br />Newman and the Pope - Part II by James Larson<br />www.traditioninaction.org<br />John Henry Newman undermines the Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1001" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He led a campaign to undermine it because he KNEW that he held (at least at one time) many of the things condemned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Logical developments also don't really have one place for their definition, just that "the intellectual process is detached from the practical, and posterior to it." From his examples, I think he's mostly referring to when certain practices or ideas are held just as empty words in one generation, then in the next the actual spirit of the words gets taken up as a real thing. A good example might be the civil rights movement insisting on actual equality a hundred years after it was granted to them in principle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina Rachele, huh is right. A careful examination of his epistemology leads to real problems. (I haven't read his Grammar of Assent.) I trust Laron's account of it here. He's fundamentally nominalist it seems to me, which is very problematic for ALL dogmas of the faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partvi<br />Part VI: Does God Love Us: An Examination of the Epistemology of John Henry Newman | The War...<br />www.waragainstbeing.com<br />"Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration." (James 1: 17)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By political development he is talking about the development of church government from, say, Peter-->bishops to pope-->bishops+curia, various other church governing bodies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1006" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">::drops mike::</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1007" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Nina, his epistemology is modernist (as condemned in Pascendi). He is adulated today because he espoused immanentism, which necessarily leads to the devaluation (if not destruction) of dogma and contributes to their changeability.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger, just for clarification, my "huh?" next to the ethical development passage was because he was quoting a verbose bishop as some kind of example and it flew right over my head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, Nina, it's been a loong while since I read him. LIS he is the protoevangelist for the modernist. full. stop. end sentence. period. It's why everyone is all Newman said this, Newman said that. ......... yeah, he says some good stuff, but upon close inspection..... TO YOUR ETHICS, however, this appears consonant with Newman's epistemology. He holds almost a double truth. But LIS, I haven't read him in awhile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1010" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-21T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now this is actually going somewhere!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm out for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1012" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T15:40:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren Ogrodnick: this isn't "going anywhere." <br />This thread just is. <br />To be sure, we are in time in relation to it. So we may go somewhere based on our interaction with it. But it itself is outside of time, in time only by operation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1013" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">now that I have provided you all with this information, may I suggest you take his definition of metaphysical development as the primary definition of development and discuss further from there. So, if I were actually asking the opening question at this point, I would open to that quote and ask "Is this wrong? Is it consonant with Church teaching?" Just so you know, the main example he gives of metaphysical development is the Athanasian Creed--can we characterize the Creed in that way? <br />Um, I need to go study for my paralegal class now, so catch you folks on the flip side...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-21T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-21T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay Proclus ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-21T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-21T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is immanentism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">jhf read pascendi. I will summarize ltr.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1017" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-21T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T16:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, I don't know you, but I like you already.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1018" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-21T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-21T18:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Random sidebar: Still not sure why Peregrine insists on mispelling Beitia's name....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1019" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T18:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of life's finer mysteries Megan</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1020" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T18:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It probably goes back to comment 127</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-21T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-21T18:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please summarize comment 127...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1022" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-21T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T19:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kidding. I don't know when it started --but I believe the wrong name usage predated this particular thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, as to his "metaphysical" development, as he states it thus quoted, shouldn't he just say "logical" development instead. It seems a misuse of the term metaphysical, if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by Faith. He seems to be mystifying what should be straight forward. But is this all that Newman means? ......and for that, you're going to have me look elsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-21T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, immanence signifies the divine presence in all people or all people. It is pantheistic, often signified contemporarily as "divine experience" found in all religions. It often accompanies the belief in universal salvation. De Chardin comes to mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-21T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Twenty year olds are for the most part intellectual babies and should be coddled and spoon fed. One of my architecture professors once told us that architecture was "an old man's game" and I think the same is basically true of theology (and philosophy).<br />Unless you are thinking of re-introducing old medieval-style disputations, which I admit do sound exciting.<br />Mr. Ruplinger, I really want to try and understand what you are saying but it might take me some time to get through what you've posted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1026" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-21T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow...I return to this thread to find it exploded....somewhere I was tagged, but FB is too stupid to take me directly to that comment....so I had to dig a bit to find it, only to find that much has expired since. And I am afraid by the time I catch up and think on it, I will be in the dust again. But if I can make a general observation on Newman....Mr. Ruplinger points to Newman's epistemology. That is the heart of the issue.<br />I loved Newman when I first read him, his Apologia pro vita sua namely. I was turned off when I read the Grammar of Assent. For those familiar with the analytic tradition of philosophy, you will recognize that in Newman, even though he actually predated it. Many of the same principles held by Frege and other analytics prevail in Newman. It is not as favorable to logic though in the direction he takes it. People have use "personalism" but a better description might be a methodological nominalism...actually, scratch that. He was straight up nominalist. Universals, in his mind, were just vague generlities, that need not even apply in the concrete.<br />Take "man is rational" For Newman that might be a justified generalization, but he will say that doesn't mean all men are rational<br />But let us here his own words:<br />"Since, as a rule, men are rational, progressive, and social, there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular person; but we must know him to be sure of it." (Grammar of Assent, chap. 8 §1 par. 2)<br />We can only, then, really know individuals. Only "facts in the concrete"<br />If you want to read for yourself more: http://www.newmanreader.org/works/grammar/chapter8-1.html<br />Newman Reader - Grammar of Assent - Chapter 8<br />www.newmanreader.org<br />{259} I is the conditional acceptance of a proposition, Assent is the unconditional; the object of Assent is a truth, the object of Inference is the truth-like or a verisimilitude. The problem which I have undertaken is that of ascertaining how it comes to pass that a conditional act leads to an unc…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1027" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-21T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now, how does is epistemology affect his theory on the development of doctrine? That shouldn't be too hard to see that it must, in some measure...the very concerns in both works being along the same lines...but it might be a dissertation to analyse it fully.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christopher Wolfe do you have thoughts re analytics and Newman above?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1029" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-21T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:26:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do note, lastly, that Newman was quite idiotic in his naive rejections of much of scholastic principles. If you read the link I gave, you will tell readily that his rejection of universals rests on the sort of prima facie reading that a teenager might give to "man is rational." Namely that he may be irrational. But that is to misunderstand what is claimed, rather badly at that.<br />But he didn't have TAC to hook him on Aristotle and Aquinas... he was in the tradition of Bacon and Locke instead</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1030" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T21:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz: what is the alternative document, author, view, etc,, as you see it, to Newman when it comes to explain the historical fact of the widely developing doctrine of the Church over time - from the early Church determining whether or not it should admit non-Jews to the finer points of the Trinity, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, isn't it self evident that the truth unfolds over time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1032" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">thank you Joshua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1033" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-21T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-21T21:38:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been following this thread since the beginning (and, for what it's worth, am one of the ugly mugs from the original article way up there, who apparently spent last year in "idle speculation"). I fear this discussion of Newman is not a genuine development from what was contained seminally at the beginning of this thread; that is to say, we seem to be dangerously close to a polite, consistent, and sane intellectual discussion. It seems to me that the early Thread Fathers might not approve.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1034" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I certainly don't.... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1035" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T21:51:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the contrary Sean Robertson: the early thread fathers all agreed about everything and had everything figured out.<br />In fact, they began the submagisterium of this thread, which is a static block of truth that needs to be used to hit everyone here over the head, repeatedly, until they see things the way I see the early thread fathers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1036" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ Modernist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're gonna "develop" yourself right into a doctrine of Divine Quaternity or some mess</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1038" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-21T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Peterson, not a clue. I am not sure if Newman was the first (always a dangerous claim!) but he is certainly the most prominent person to put forward a theory of "development." I mean, obviously earlier scholastics recognized some sort of development. Such is implicit in the debates about what can constitute dogma. e.g. if the minor premise is de fide, but the major is from reason, is the conclusion capable of being de fide? Do both premises have to be? Just major? Without getting into an argument about the roles of syllogisms in dogma, such arguments presume the possibility of discursive reason discovering truth that are de fide, from one or more premises already known de fide. And as such a growth in understand and knowledge. We can say more particular truths are contained in more universal truths, and if you want Newman's terminology, the more universal ideas would become seminal ideas.<br />Now this is just off the cuff, so take it with a grain of salt. But does it not seem that Newman's rejection of syllogistic reasoning (except as giving mere probability), universals (let alone truths more universal containing particulars), etc. make the question of development something that required a book to try and defend and try and avoid something like evolution of dogma? If you hold the ability to have universals and reason with certitude from them to other propositions, doesn't the problem largely disappear? While admitting that the historical process was messy, and not necessarily accomplished without a bunch of groping and feeling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, the first developmentalist in the Newman sense was probably Petavius, who was countered by the Protestant Bishop Bull (who was congratulated by Bossuet, as I recall, for his efforts)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1040" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">JAson, Peterson is a heretic. His animist writings on the "spirit of the bear" have been roundly condemned</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1041" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I discerned his wickedness the day I met him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to ask, though, as a protestant, do you see doctrine developing a la Newman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1043" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">absolutely not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is the reform of the reform (in your mind) something nascent in Christianity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1045" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">but that is not really a conversation for this thread. Let's stick to Peterson's wickedness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-21T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fair enough. I'll message you some other time.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1047" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">if I were Catholic I would regard Newman's epistemology and developmentalism as a trojan horse; I'll say that much, Message me privately</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1048" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Christopher Wolfe" data-date="2014-08-21T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well Matthew J. Peterson, I'm in the same boat as Joshua since I haven't been following this massive number of comments, but I'll throw in my 2 bits. Joshua's quote from Newman which he described as "nominalist" might be nominalist but then again not. The way I would describe that Newman quote is: "set-theory," and yes, it is quite similar to what analytics such as Gottlob Frege say because predicate logic involves "sets," not universals. However philosopher who accepts set theory and predicate logic needn't be a "set theory nominalist," and can be very close to holding an Aristotelian theory of universals depending on what he says about necessity and possibility- Peter Geach and GE Anscombe are the best examples of that sort of thing. Anscombe wrote and accepted ALOT of what Aristotle claims, but never herself accepted his theory of the forms in his writings as far as I can tell. That's why she doesn't necessarily think of the soul as the form of the body, and wrote essays like "Immortality of the Soul" arguing that when we die we could be resurrected without anything like Aristotle's potential intellect surviving. It was Anscombe's backup plan just in case the nominalists were correct about universals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1049" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Christopher Wolfe" data-date="2014-08-21T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">P.S.- A majority of orthodox Catholic theologians during the middle ages WERE nominalists, historical fact (eg, see John Marenbon's book).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1050" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Christopher Wolfe" data-date="2014-08-21T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">As for Newman, I read in a biography about him that after becoming Catholic he went to Rome seeking the Thomists out to learn from them, but the Thomism he found literally was a shambles of a school at the time (that was before Aeterni Patris, of course). So I think Newman really was coming out of a different education than we Thomists are used to, and was trying to figure things out without the intellectual resources we can now rely on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Christopher Wolfe" data-date="2014-08-21T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm glad to hear it, that was always my assumption until reading that quote just now. Joshua (if you're out there in cyberspace), is there any more proof that you could present to justify your claim that Newman rejected universals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1052" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That quote from Newman basically describes what goes on at TAC. So what again were all these ten jillion comments about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's just a sort of substitution of prudence and imagination for reason, and hunches/gestalt impressions for clear ideas. That doesn't make him much of anything except a Romantic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1054" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha unargued assertions. we have come to this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">except that reason for him isnt "scientific". But it is for Aquinas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1056" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">apparently they ignore distinctions at Christendom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1057" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T23:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that Newman is not so simple, Peregrine Bonaventure, but the thread that never ends will allow us to continue that in a bit.<br />We all need to look at what JA Escalante just said as regards the Newman quote you quoted approvingly above: tell us a bit more about how and why you think it doesn't describe TAC, because it sure seems like it is Newman defending TAC against you and your objections...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1058" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T23:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But this too quick dismissal of Newman also needs to be discussed.<br />Thank God this thread is outside of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1059" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-21T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T23:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">At some point you need to explain to us why your Newman quote doesn't contradict what you've said all thread, because it seems it does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1060" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-21T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T23:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Petavius, as in the moon crater? Okay, I heard the name, never read him. I knew he did a lot of working with the history of theology...makes sense he would have something like a development theory.<br />I refrained from calling Newman a modernist, or his theory unorthodox. But I will not refrain from calling Newman, as his views are in the Grammar of Assent, as so obviously nominalist that it boggles the mind how anyone can miss that. Or how he mocks the very form of reasoning used by Aristotle and Aquinas<br />Quoting from the same place<br />"we wish to ascertain, will be found to reduce the force of the inferential method from demonstration to the mere determination of the probable. Thus, whereas (as I have already said) Inference starts with conditions, as starting with premisses, here are two reasons why, when employed upon questions of fact, it can only conclude probabilities: first, because its premisses are assumed, not proved; and secondly, because its conclusions {269} are abstract, and not concrete."<br />"And in like manner as regards John and Richard, when compared with one another; each is himself, and nothing else, and, though, regarded abstractedly, the two may fairly be said to have something in common, (viz., that abstract sameness which does not exist at all,) yet strictly speaking, they have nothing in common, for each of them has a vested interest in all that he himself is"<br />"Let units come first, and (so-called) universals second; let universals minister to units, not units be sacrificed to universals. John, Richard, and Robert are individual things, independent, incommunicable. We may find some kind of common measure between them, and we may give it the name of man, man as such, the typical {280} man, the auto-anthropos. We are justified in so doing, and in investing it with general attributes, and bestowing on it what we consider a definition. But we think we may go on to impose our definition on the whole race, and to every member of it, to the thousand Johns, Richards, and Roberts who are found in it. No; each of them is what he is, in spite of it. Not any one of them is man, as such, or coincides with the auto-anthropos. Another John is not necessarily rational, because "all men are rational," for he may be an idiot;—nor because "man is a being of progress," does the second Richard progress, for he may be a dunce;—nor, because "man is made for society," must we therefore go on to deny that the second Robert is a gipsy or a bandit, as he is found to be. There is no such thing as stereotyped humanity; it must ever be a vague, bodiless idea, because the concrete units from which it is formed are independent realities. General laws are not inviolable truths; much less are they necessary causes. Since, as a rule, men are rational, progressive, and social, there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular person; but we must know him to be sure of it."<br />Newman is clear that he is rejecting the very Organon of Aristotle, as far as "truth in the concrete" goes. It only touches the abstract, and he is very dismissive of that. He even calls the universal the "tyrant of the majority" using Elias as a counterexample to "all men are mortal."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-21T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Petavius= Denis Petau, SJ</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1062" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-22T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T00:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">More, from an unpublished paper of 1868:<br />If abstract truths, (or what nominalits call "generalizations" from experience) are objective, (as realists would hold,) therefore they are objects- what is the object? Beautifulness, for instance- What does the mind see when it contemplates this abstraction?-is it God? if not, is it one of the Platonic everlasting ideas external to God? if not, can it be any thing at all, and are we not driven to agreement with the school of Locke and sensible experiences.<br />I dare say there is some simple refutation at once of the following answer, which has this only recommendation, that I have held it these forty years strenously- on the other hand I am so little versed in the controversy...<br />Ido not allow the existence of these abstract ideas corresponding to objective realities with Locke-but then, I do not pass over the experiences gained from the phenomena of mind so slightly, as I fancy the school of Locke is apt to do...<br />And more from the Grammar:<br />"All things in the exterior world are unit and individual, and are nothing else; but the mind not only contemplates those unit realities, as they exist, but has the gift, by an act of creation, of bringing before it abstractions and generalizations, which have no existence, no counterpart, out of it.<br />Now there are propositions, in which one or both of the terms are common nouns, as standing for what is abstract, general, and non-existing, such as "Man is an animal, some men are learned, an Apostle is a creation of Christianity, a line is length without breadth, to err is human, to forgive divine." These I shall call notional propositions, and the apprehension with which we infer or assent to them, notional.<br />And there are other propositions, which are composed of singular nouns, and of which the terms stand for {10} things external to us, unit and individual, as "Philip was the father of Alexander," "the earth goes round the sun," "the Apostles first preached to the Jews;" and these I shall call real propositions, and their apprehension real.<br />There are then two kinds of apprehension or interpretation to which propositions may be subjected, notional and real." (from chap 1)<br />And it won't take long to see he disparages "notional" That is even a common complaint among some of his fans.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1063" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T01:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if nominalism is a sufficient structure to study and comment on history? Though the nominalist would probably view history as some sort of master science, since the well educated historian could make the best generalizations. That being said, history does not have universals, only generalizations, so a nominalist's approach to history might be a sufficient one.<br />This occurs to me about theology: The right context for theology is a well-ordered prayer life. The only one suited to judge about someone's well-ordered prayer life is a confessor or spiritual director, or oneself. Thus, a school that teaches theology must only make a well-ordered prayer life possible. A well-ordered prayer life, of course, has its pinnacle in Holy Mass. As perfect, it would include the fulness of liturgical observance with the Divine Office. This perhaps sheds light on a discussion we had above (note, Matthew J. Peterson, I do not say "before") when we discussed the lay theologian. Insofar as there is a valid and healthy prayer life possible for a layman, and insofar as there is truly a domestic church, then it is possible for there to be lay theologians. Though, evidently, lay theologians cannot obtain to the perfection that religious theologians do, because of the imperfection of their state in life. <br />Joshua, thanks for coming back to this thread!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1064" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T05:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T05:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua is right that Newman is not as realist as St Thomas, but he is certainly not as nominalist as analytic philosophy or empiricism. See: http://www.scribd.com/.../Newman-s-Apologia-and-the-Drama...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1065" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Anthony Crifasi" data-date="2014-08-22T07:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anthony Crifasi at 2014-08-22T07:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I nominate you all to pour a bucket of ice on your heads every time a comment is added to this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T07:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T07:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks joshua. I almost opened my grammar of assent for the first time. I think Joshua and James Larson (linked above) do a sufficient job proving Newman nominalist. Its obvious in some writings and undetectable in others (a modernist tactic). If someone refutes Larson on Newman i may seriously do some work. But i have a different question for Christopher or any one. Were there any notable theologians that an arm chair pope like i might know, who were nominalists? Because like Richard Weaver i view them as termites that hollow out faith and reason entirely?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1067" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T08:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't want to waste clean water, Anthony.<br />So what does Newman's nominalism have to do with:<br />A) his idea of a university and<br />B) his idea of the development of Christian doctrine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T08:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T08:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The idea is vacuous though. So what does it matter? (Seriously the only really great piece in it is on elementary education and in light of his nominalism and many imprecise statements most ironic.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T08:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T08:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as to doctrine, he is modernist but one need read Pascendi for that to be understood. Nominalism undermines all doctrines.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T08:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T08:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i will elaborate if i have time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T08:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T08:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read Pascendi, both for class at TAC and later on for my own personal reference (as a refresher).<br />Is it possible that his views on epistemology were inconsistent internally in his writings? Obviously if one is consistently nominalist, history and experimental science are the only fields of (valid) study.<br />(I am reminded of the mathematician Gauss saying he wanted to have people on the tops of three mountain peaks, sufficiently far apart, to measure the interior angles of a triangle between the three to determine whether geometry is Euclidean or not...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T09:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read Pascendi several times over a year ago, and I am in need of a reread. I have a terrible memory. It is packed and applying it takes time. The modernist heresy (as therein defined) is the GOAT (or WOAT) in the history of the Church -- I have no doubt and if any do, they don't get or reject Pasceni imo -- and it's influence is ubiquitous. It certainly leads to apostasy step by step and so many in little or great ways are unknowingly caught up in it. (I do not condemn Newman the person, to be clear. He was suspect in his day and Cardinal Manning, esp. argued against him. Again, I rely a lot on James Larson but will do my own work if he be refuted, because the arguments are the lever imo to move all that follows).<br />I don't think any of the nominalist are consistent. They use or don't use logic as it suits them. If all ideas are as empty as they they think then nominalism itself is highly improbable as an idea, no?<br />Bacon is most forthright. In the preface to one of his works (I can't remember), he openly admits profound skepticism but declares that he will unlike the skeptics of old, be inconsistent: a self-proclaimed sophist in the old negative sense, at least he is honest. He also slips in and out of the old method of argument as he list in Novum Organon which obviously is nothing but a replacement for logic.<br />As to consistency again, Pius X points out the modernist have almost a double mind (and so too nominalists); they have a double truth almost. And shift from writing as nominalist, to writing as one of Faith. Or in the case of dogma, they assent to it outwardly, but I cannot understand how they assent inwardly. God knows. Tis a puzzlement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1073" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T09:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Returning to the "Idea of University", they are simply a collection of lectures, and I was never much impressed with them. In them he actually outlines the modern university. The only piece on Elementary Education, was obviously never a lecture but a very clever dialogue. In it, however, some of the wrong methods of learning in mid19th century are evident: esp. the stagnant English method of Latin which the Jesuits traditionally taught orally (much easier to learn). At the same time it is a very good and thought provoking dialogue, showing the need to balance self-learning and receive DIRECTION from a tutor -- apropos to the earlier beginnings of a discussion on education. <br />One note: the Jesuits were famous for conducting their classes in a delightful way such that the students so interested learned the most difficult things almost effortlessly. I wish I knew how they did it. Waugh (Edmund Campion) points it out (and others). Fr. Thomas Hughes wrote the only book in English detailing their course and giving some insight to what they did. Peregrine might be interested to learn that St. Ignatius himself thought rhetoric (read literature) was the only part of the course NEVER to be compromised: literature for THREE years -- to ease Peregrine's concerns, he should also note that they excised the more salacious and saltry parts of texts like parts of Book II of the Aeneid. anyways, gotta run ..... late already.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1074" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T09:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmmm. John, did you read the text to which Pater Edmund linked? There is a strong argument against his being a nominalist there. <br />I have kept hearing that there are several texts and places of Pascendi that condemn Newman, but this more and more starting to sound like something made up. Currently, there is only slander being proffered: "He was suspect in his time," "So and so said he was Nominalist", etc. <br />It seems that Joshua made some real, text-based arguments for Newman being a Nominalist. I would be interested to see his response to Pater Edmund. <br />What is more, I suggested above that one engaging in an historical or practical project, might very well come off as a nominalist. <br />Finally, one should be wary of saying, "This guy had bad or weak philosophy, therefore he is a modernist." We can't go that route for many reasons. One of which is that such an approach robs Pascendi of its force. <br />Maybe it is time to go to the chapel and pray for Bl. Newman's intercession. Then maybe re-read his texts, perhaps with greater charity and sobriety of mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1075" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T09:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T09:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Aeneid?? Apparently St. Ignatius didn't teach the fullness of sacred theology in accordance with the magisterium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1076" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T09:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not that secondary sources count for much around here, but in Copleston's History of Philosophy Volume VIII he suggests that Newman's approach is more along phenomenological lines. In summarizing Newman's approach to the assent of faith he says <br />"[...]we must distinguish between two types of assent. Assent given to a proposition apprehended as notional, as concerned with abstract ideas or universal terms, is notional assent, while that which is given to propositions apprehended as real, as concerned directly with things or persons, is real assent.<br />Now Newman takes it that things and persons, whether objects of actual experience or preented imaginatively in memory, strike the mind much more forcibly and vividly than do abstract notions. ****Real apprehension therefore is 'stronger than notional, because things, which are its objects, are confessedly more impressive and effective than notions, which are the object of notional [apprehension]. Experiences and their images strike and occupy the mind, as abstractions and their combinations so not.' ****** Similarly, although, according to Newman, all assent is alike in being unconditional, acts of assent 'are elicited more heartily and forcibly, when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its objects, than when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its objects, than when they are made in favour of notions and with a notional apprehension.' Further, real assent, though it does not necessarily affect conduct, tends to do so in a way in which purely notional assent does not.<br />Real assent is also called belief by Newman. [...]" pg. 517<br />Copleston's quotes are taken from the Grammar of Assent. He never really gets to the point of calling Newman, well, a member of any philosophical school in particular. The asterisked part indicates the main section in this passage that I underlined when I read it. Side question: is phenomenology a secret cover for nominalism, because now I'm confused...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1077" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T09:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there is a very distinct difference between nominalism (which Newman may or may not have been.... I think Mr. Kenz did some good work with that) and phenomenology. <br />But I think it is pretty clear from a study of Brittish Empiricists that the separation into "notional" and "real" leads directly to nominalism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1078" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T09:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">so maybe he (Newman) wasn't a nominalist, but he could see it from his house....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't speak for Daniel, but no, obviously</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1080" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T10:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. ...um... Mr. PB Scott, is there a certain list of texts you have in mind for content? I have the impression that it is basically church councils, Scripture, and the Catechism but I might be mistaken; also you may have posted a list earlier that I missed. Also for what you mean by structure my closest guess is chronological. I am just telling you what my basic impression of your ideas are, you can give a yea or nay and explain further.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1081" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T10:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">In addition, I think Mr. Lendman's outline is consonant with Augustine's own qualifications in De Doctrina Christiana.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1082" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I consider myself spoken for.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, I am liking you more and more, by the post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1084" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rather than unpacking what Newman is known for and examining it, giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying to understand what he means, and then weighing that, and trying to understand why so many of good might tout and study and say they learn from him:<br />Note how we are now leaping to write him off based on where he says things that oppose a body of thought we identify with.<br />This is the hermeneutic of inquisition.<br />It is worth noting that he didn't receive a Thomistic education (not his fault - things had imploded) but this doesn't answer the question - it might be important, of course, but it might not. I'm glad it's been brought out - and it very much worth noting - but it is not a refutation.<br />He's not known and praised and read for his epistemology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1085" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The idea that phenomenology is nominalism, however, is just absurd to my mind. The long line of people who came out of Husserl - nominalists? They were trying to save the world from positivism and historicism for Pete's sake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though, Matthew, it does seem worthwhile to argue that Newman's philosophy was not a damning impediment to his theological work, specifically with regard to development. <br />I am still interested in Joshua Kenz's response to Pater Edmund.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, your accusation is thoroughly absurd. Not a quote in this thread from Newman, that has not been shown to be or is evidently unsound. I've linked James Larson. I don't expect any here to refute him, but his criticism is devastating. I have read a deal of Newman with great care.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...my name is Daniel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you argue like a politician.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1090" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me too - and also I am interested in anyone's response to Newman's kinds of development that Nina Rachele brought out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please lay things out clearly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, Nina's text is interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">okay, lemme get this straight, Newman isn't known or read for his epistemology, but we have to read this idea of development of doctrine (which seems pretty epistemological). Which is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is it more historical?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">historical in the sense of Historicist is epistemological</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or phenomenological?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, don't discuss his epistemology which is the heart and root of the problem. As to Nina, that is a summary and I disagree with Newman. Notional assent is more certain than assent to the world of phenomena. Again, evidence of his nominalism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As to Pater Edmund's link, I read I thought the whole article, but maybe not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I'd start with what he says about development and then tie that his episteme if I was against him. Kenz did a bit of that tie so it wasn't quite clear.<br />But anyone for 'em is going to say who gives a crap about what he thought about universals if you read the rest of his writings - he was stuck with crappy episteme and the rest of his work doesn't really rely on it.<br />Etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1100" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting, not knowing what it was, and they'll keep on posting forever just because this is thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1101" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so you're saying baptize his works like Thomas did to Aristoilet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, Matthew Miller</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To both things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1104" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T10:57:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, so I've put all the nominations that have been posted so far into a google doc: https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...<br />And I've set it so it can be edited by anyone who has the link. Please complete titles years etc. and add nominations under the correct headings. But if you add a nomination mention hear on the thread as well.<br />Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs<br />docs.google.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Lendman, every response I've made is merely "political". I don't think you hardly read half of my responses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><sigh></p>
</li>
<li id="post_1107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will you please, oh sir sigh a lot, return above and show me how or how not Nina's quote of Newman's understanding of metaphysical development is not ridiculous?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've tried to be fair as well as polemical, but I am quite concerned as other better thinkers than I about the nominalist position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1109" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe it is. I would just like to see an argument, that's all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THen best begin yourself, and not hurl insults maybe, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1111" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">are you really John, and Daniel) going to make us scroll *all* the way up to the quote on metaphysical? Really? My eternal return of the same circle only goes clockwise.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina Rachele "[...] metaphysical developments; I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea contemplated, and terminate in its exact and complete delineation [...] in the sacred provinces of theology, the mind may be employed in developing the solemn ideas, which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning powers." pg 52, Ch1 section 9</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My response: Nina, as to his "metaphysical" development, as he states it thus quoted, shouldn't he just say "logical" development instead. It seems a misuse of the term metaphysical, if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by Faith. He seems to be mystifying what should be straight forward. But is this all that Newman means? ......and for that, you're going to have me look elsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great. You say that this is absurd, John. Why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1115" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re theses: Didn't Rebecca Loop come back and give her thesis "On Exemplary Causality in the First Being" as a lecture to the college? A version of it was published in The Aquinas Review (1998), iirc. Anyone have a copy of it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1116" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that is an interesting point you make.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about: when was "metaphysical" "mere analysis"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1118" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not clear to me what he means by metaphysical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he says "mere analysis of the idea contemplated"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1120" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which to me would be quasi-nominalist..... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1121" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In this context, he says that. I am not sure that we should put too much weight on that as an exhaustive account.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1122" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Rebecca's thesis was the only one of which I'm aware that was awarded by TAC a higher honor than double distinction--namely publication in TAC's in house journal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caldwell High School 4-evah!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1124" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The basic question right now is whether Newman's nominalism (if we can call it that) negates the legitimacy of his thesis on metaphysical developments in Christian doctrine? Is that right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does require reading more of what Newman says. I thought that Joshua's commentary was pretty revealing. Again, I'm most familiar with Newman's "idea" (and indeed what does that mean given his notions of idea?) of a university. He was acclaimed the great orator of his day, but is unimpressive -- not just my judgment but others better than I who even agree with his development and stand on infallibility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no Nina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's just that every quote of Newman in the last 200 comments, does not stand up to scrutiny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1128" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woops, waited too long to post ::twiddles fingers::</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what are the requirements re theses? Double D?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1130" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The comments in Pater Edmund's "Unwritten Tradition" are, I think, illuminating on just how concerning Newman's nominalism or near nominalism or confusion w/r/t Universals ought to be. I find it very comforting that Newman apparently said things like "[T]here is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an Apostle, if asked, would have been fully able to answer and would have answered."<br />With that said, I'm no Newman scholar myself, so I'll sit back and listen to my betters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1131" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not ready to condemn Newman as a nominalist. It is not clear to me how clear he was on philosophy at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I am ready to lift mine if someone show a good argument to the contrary. I just see that Newman opened a can of worms. I'm still trying to find Pater Edmund's link...........</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1133" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, no special requirements; they just have to be really good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1134" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear, I'm not condemning Newman. He appears to be at least close to nominalism at times, but again, I'm no Newman scholar, or anything scholar really!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1135" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, here's the link (pp.84-99): http://www.scribd.com/.../Newman-s-Apologia-and-the-Drama...<br />Newman's Apologia and the Drama of Faith and Reason - Draft5<br />www.scribd.com<br />Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">see.................... I don't respect sacred cows of the present moment. Countless old doctors of the Church are treated like spittoons. I'm not even spitting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Double D would be the norm, I'd imagine (or at least distinction for the written part). Didn't they used to give theses letter grades? I recall Kolbeck telling me he changed that to pass/fail/distinction while he was dean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1138" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, but you must respect sacred cows! Nostra Aetate!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the question we are currently answering, if what I stated above is not the question? Unless we have just gone straight into talking about Newman's thought generally speaking, which I admit I am not qualified to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1140" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:20:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whether one must respect sacred cows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1141" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina Rachele, We are each of us talking about our own pet topics, as our minds each flit from one to the next. Discourse and dialogue were right out almost from the start.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1142" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems that one should not respect sacred cows, for as the philosopher says....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1143" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Ryan Burke, I didn't include your thesis on why my thesis is wrong. So I guess that's another rule: no republicanism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1144" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What can I say... old habits die hard...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">see you later., perhaps. and I got that doc downloaded this time. Maybe I read a different one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1146" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T11:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mine was a double D in defense of Beauty that was what I took to be St. Thomas wrapped at start and end with winged words. The goal was to seriously defend Beauty as transcendental-ish without falling into the sort of aesthetic flummery that is increasing prevalent today (you could see it already present and coming on strong), and without being a rationalist Neanderthal.<br />Mrs. Gustin said it was the best thesis she ever read - but, of course, for many people this was the equivalent to a condemnation...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1147" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I blame Pater Edmund... he totally derailed this convo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1148" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-22T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-22T11:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRJ38y4Jn6k<br />Ferris Bueller's Day Off ( It's Over, Go Home [ Ending ])<br />Ferris Bueller's Day Off ( Movie Clip: " It's Over, Go Home " [ Ending ])</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1149" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, we were about to put Newman on the index, and then Pater Edmund has to go and collect a list of things that go on the Pope Perescott index.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1150" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But actually Ruplinger, the one Joel cited was this: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/<br />Unwritten Tradition<br />sancrucensis.wordpress.com<br />Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture and Tradition in the indispensable pdf of Denzinger-Hünermann, I was struck by how often they use some variation on ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1151" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-22T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-22T11:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, Pater Edmund, my thesis has borne up less well than past me thought it would. Also to be fair, your thesis was written to prove me wrong, rather than vice versa, as I recall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim Furlan, what was your thesis called?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would it be textbook based or a selection of primary sources?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1154" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T11:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim's was called<br />"Brilliant, but loooong..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. 2 different links </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the ordinary, or extraordinary, or Magisterium cathedrae magistralis?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T12:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would the primary sources be presented in their entirety, with one author studied at a time, or would (for example) multiple authors be presented on a single topic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1158" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-22T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-22T12:16:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">1200. Laughable. Not worth a discussion until this thread hits at least 1500.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1159" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still holding out hope for perfection: 8128</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I would like an answer as to which "magisterium" we're talking about. Distinguo distinguo distinguo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Principally the data presented by the extraordinary magisterium. This is really necessary for subsequent theological inquiry in the areas of faith and morals, and the examination of parts of the Summa, the principle writing of the doctors through the Reformation, and to present. This is not that difficult.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what if the extraordinary magisterium tells us to study the Magisterium cathedrae magistralis?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T12:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, by extraordinary magisterium, you mean church councils? Is that correct?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1164" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, at page 40 and looking for the pertinant point </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1165" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, you owe me a decade of the rosary for slogging through your reasonable summary of the last 500 years of philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1166" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T12:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question of "development of doctrine" is what development means, of course, and not whether or not it happens from a human point of view, or whether or not it happens in extremely messy ways and to radical extents, often in reaction to vehement disagreements regarding specific policies, etc.<br />We don't need Newman or other names to discuss how doctrine develops.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then we would have to do it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nice. I caught that red herring.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1169" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">newman is on trial. His books must burn </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i agree. MP. But investigating newman, helps. We can say what it is not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, there you go all irresponsibly thinking you can determine if doctrine develops or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what we are trying to do here is help the student develop a theological habit of mind. This involves assent to stuff we cannot know by reason. And also a sense of how the Church examines these issues as part of a theology, certainly in light of Scripture and history, and how She comes to make true statements worthy of belief. There is a theology at work here, and students in a four year Catholic college can be introduced to it in a way that is good in itself and also lays the groundwork for future studies in theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1173" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T12:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah - let's do that then. How are Newman's definitions that Nina Rachele posted wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">First of all, Newman's idea of metaphysical development seems to lack any metaphysics\</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T12:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. PB Scott: Would your objections to the TAC curriculum be removed if all (or most) of the major councils were included? Or is your real objection to the seminar method itself?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-22T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He wants the Catechism. (And no seminar method)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no objection to the seminar method. It is the best. There are 400+ major doctrines of the Church. They came from somewhere. Students need to get a sense of how they came to be in the "mind" of the Church, so to speak; and the reasonability of doctrine, and the theological process of mind that underscores things worthy of belief. This is not a philosophical habit of mind, which TAC is really good at. This is different than that, and this requires a special regimen. Certainly some of the councils would be useful, but the main thing are the theological principles which came from the councils, and Sacred Scripture, and how the Church and Her principle theologians have supported those in their thinking over the years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, that is a complete misrepresentation of my beliefs. I am puzzled and a bit shocked by your assertion. It is not true. Please see my comment immediately above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adding my sister, Lucy Nolan's thesis on the Brother's K.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T13:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perescott seems to be saying a whole bunch of nothing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a snip from John Senior's polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian Culture:<br />«In this crucial respect of finality the curriculum at some Catholic colleges is superior to the older secular programs they are modeled on; but even so it would be wise for the Thomist philosophers among them to recall the Scholastic dictum that means must be proportionate to ends. The seminar as a means of learning purports to be a dialectic process derived from the Socratic dialogues. Even if this were so–which a glance at Plato’s text proves false, and even if there were students prepared for such a course–which a glance at their reading habits proves ridiculous, but even if there were such a dialectic and such students, without the formal lecture and professors who draw not just the questions but the right answers out, these seminars slide down into bull-sessions in which the strongest bull or the most artful dodger wins; and if such sessions become habitual, they result in arrogant skepticism, which is where Plato’s Academy ended. Students need systematic exposition of ideas and hard, daily practice of logical disputation under the controlled conditions of real debate; and, without years of training in gymnastics, music, poetry, art, history, and in manners, morals and religion, which used to be supplied by Christian homes and schools, the exchange of opinion in Great Books seminars encourages the very sophistry Socrates gave his life to combat. The student learns a critical method with which to demolish the ideas of others without having grasped any reality in the ideas at all and worst of all, if he has failed in the meantime to master his appetites and temperament–if he is weak, impatient, malicious, sensuous or indolent–with such critical weapons he is well on his way to Vanity Fair, where you get a Ph.D. and tenure. <br />The ancients distinguished four degrees of knowledge: the poetic, where truths are grasped intuitively as when you trust another’s love; the rhetorical, where we are persuaded by evidence, but without conclusive proof, admitting that we might be wrong, as when we vote for a political candidate; next the dialectical mode in which we conclude to one of two opposing arguments beyond a reasonable doubt, with the kind of evidence sufficient for conviction in a law court or in a laboratory testing to certify a drug for human use; and finally, in the scientific mode–science in the ancient and not the modern sense which is dialectical and rhetorical, but science as epistamai–we reach to absolute certitude as when we know the whole is greater than the part, that motion presupposes agency or know obvious facts such as Cuba is an island because we sailed around it. Each of these degrees has its appropriate faculties: poetry, memorization and imaginative play; rhetoric, precept and practice; dialectic, scholastic disputation and laboratory experiment; science, systematic exposition. But where does “class discussion” come in? Well, it isn’t on the list at all, and not because the ancients didn’t think of it, but because they rejected it. »</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catholic college needs to be positive in its understanding of the principle theological teachings of the Catholic church, and the theological basis of the Faith. The Catholic college cannot stand only on a metaphysical examination of the Faith. The best way to study theology is the Socratic method because the development of doctrine is principally a historical-dialectical process. But the principle teachings of Faith must be presented in a positive way in a Catholic college. This is necessary not only for catechesis, but also absolutely necessary for the theological inquiry and conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there an online copy of the whole of Senior's polemic contra TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys are really a bunch of arrogant jerks. It is necessary for the Catholic college to understand the theological basis of what we believe. This is a theological inquiry, not a philosophical one. <br />You do not seem to be capable of even understanding this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you can't think logically how are you going to get all that greatness out of the documents? Especially the newer ones which are not written as clearly? Isn't that how we have people using a document to support their position when their position is torn apart two paragraphs later in the same document?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is in crisis. I will let you pigs figure it out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1187" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">What a charmer!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In an idealized theological course of study, would every class cover a different doctrine and its support? Or for example, would a council be read, and then say the full works of three or four theologians of the time who supported it? Edit: assuming each class is still taught under the seminar method</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1189" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/.../tac-the.../582559135127560...<br />TAC, the Magisterium and The lights of Faith and Reason<br />On August 2 I provoked a very long thread that started with this quote from a friend, Scott Weinberg, critical of TAC. "From all I have been told on this subject, it seems to me that what the Chur<br />By: Richard Delahide Ferrier</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^link isn't working?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1191" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, I think it's because I'm not friends with Dr. Ferrier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm tired of your arrogant barbs, silly jokes, idiotic statements. So many TACers are incapable... Lauren and Nina, your comments are disingenuous. Maintain the logical basis. Present Faith positively, or lose it and your audience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're not friends with Dr Ferrier???? oh... I'm not either...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1194" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">? All I've been doing is asking questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I never had him as a tutor unfortunately...think I had him for an all-school once maybe...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, no free version, but it's on Kindle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1197" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. I have refused to engage you, O Foolish Troll, but you cross the line when you insult women. Go away, Scott. Now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1198" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you were here I would punch you. Hard. And I am really good at punching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. PB Scott, if you have just been describing one school's particular curriculum, then just go ahead and send me a link, you don't need to waste your time with an explanation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's no such thing as an ideal theological course. Are you actually asking if only one doctrine would be covered per class in an undergraduate theology class? Is this a serious question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You keep saying things, but practically what would those things look like at a "real" Catholic school. I think that's all we are asking .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, yes. I assumed we were discussing what the ideal theological course was and why TAC did not look like that ideal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1203" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, I would not waste your time. He is not interested in real discourse. I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1204" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, I do think I have been wasting my time discussing this with you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1205" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">More places where this has been gone over in detail (1): https://www.facebook.com/richa.../posts/10151881807463949...<br />Richard Delahide Ferrier<br />From a TAC alum, and Christendom grad. I would love to see many comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said. He is sniveling prig.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and (2): https://www.facebook.com/notes/sean-collins/on-some-questions-about-teaching-catholic-doctrine/10151799390270960<br />On Some Questions About Teaching "Catholic Doctrine"<br />Richard Delahide Ferrier suggests we go to bed ... reasonable enough, except that I'm a night owl, and this looks like my chance to jump into a very interesting conversation that I didn't know about b<br />By: Sean Collins</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1208" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I for my part have learned quite a bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1209" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^good, I can read that one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1210" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Count your blessings, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1211" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-22T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wear it like a badge of honour John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just what I was thinking Nina!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Nina, those other places will witness to my patience and forbearance with regard to the troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1214" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-22T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I said above, I will always be grateful to the Peregrine for provoking these discussions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1215" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we get back to Newman now, please?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1216" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-22T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T13:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund is dragging up old memories there with the Ferrier thread. But yes, we had some good discoveries even then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1217" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T13:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Befriend Richard Delahide Ferrier all - and read that note and the comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1218" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone agree with me that an inquiry of sacred theology is different than a metaphysical inquiry? Does anyone agree that a theological inquiry relates intrinsically to what the Church promulgates as worthy of belief? Does anyone agree with me that this is not mere catechesis? Does anyone agree that Catholic theology in a Catholic college should include this? does anyone maintain that TAC does this? If, explain how. Please, no more idiocy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1219" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sadly, Pater Edmund, Scott's credibility is bankrupt. His initial questions are interesting and important. It is the follow-up that is the problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In a Catholic college, when you teach theology, you need a positive presentation of the doctrines of the Faith, and the theological basis of these doctrines or principles. This is how theology is taught in most Catholic colleges. You could do this easily at TAC, in seminar. This is not advocacy against the seminar method, or for catechesis.<br />Do you see this?<br />Is this "worthy of discourse" for you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In charity, Daniel, I think Scott has burdens and crosses to bear irl, and as such cannot be treated as one would treat a man sound of mind and body who acted thus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1222" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund thank you for linking that Ferrier thread, it is very interesting so far...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, you're a jerk. Best of luck to you arrogant Catholics from TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1224" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love how barely making it through the program lumps me with all the brilliant minds that came out of TAC. How long do you have to attend for this label to be present? (Obviously this is not a serious question, but merely a musing)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your arrogance is proof of your lack of theological formation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brilliant minds?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1227" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I do enjoy poking fun, I didn't mean to insult with my last comment, actually. I too am grateful to Scott for provoking the original threads, though he needn't be quite so provoking, in my view. Still I dont think dialogue is possible at this point, not when insults fly quite so readily. But dialogue is hardly the point of the thread, is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr. Waldstein came to mind when I made that comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1229" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still have honest questions about what "theological inquiry" is. and "theological basis" and "theological principles"<br />Help me out Perescottgrinebonawienventureburg</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1230" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-22T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T14:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Need to get ready for work... I expect plenty of new insights about Newman when I get back here....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1231" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm at work. I call it "multi-trolling"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">except I always come back to the same thing: I need to know what sort of principles, inquiry and basis is (theologically speaking) in order that I can honestly answer (to the best of my abilities) whatever the hell Scott is talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1233" class="entry odd" data-likes="12" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T14:30:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stefon: "Facebook’s hottest thread is Peterson’s Never-ending Thread. This thread has it all: pseudonymous trolls demanding magesterium, fake thesis titles, Newman debates, trolling, reverse-trolling, collections of real theses, Monks, hipster protestants, rad trads, and neo caths."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1234" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-22T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-22T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YAY! Stefon lives!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1235" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-22T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-22T14:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">reverse trolling! LOL! but there should be some mention of midgets doing something unseemly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1236" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey! I'm short, but not that short!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1237" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-22T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-22T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A human fanny pack? What's that?" "It's that thing of where a midget hangs around your waist and you keep your passport in his mouth"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1238" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-22T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-22T14:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A magesteri-midget? It's that thing, where you get a midget to follow you around and shout abuse about how you don't follow the true magesterium."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1239" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-22T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T15:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you the kind-hearted rebuke Joel. I fell into the trap of taking a troll seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Plus" data-date="2014-08-22T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Plus at 2014-08-22T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Schniederjan I know what this thread needs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEKZJp-x-Dc<br />Jay Ferguson ~ Thunder Island<br />a song of Jay's i like made video because was no good studio version on video ...enjoy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1241" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T15:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">the sad thing is that he brings up things worth talking about.....and then spins in circles before the insults come out.<br />At TAC we learned the proper order of things. Insult first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-22T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is a heresy factory. It is named after Saint Thomas Aquinas, and claims to teach under the Magisterium, but is confused about sacred theology, how you teach it, if you should teach it, what it is, and what it's for, etc. It replaces metaphysics and natural theology with sacred theology, and its alum teach things like reason enlightens faith. This is formal and material heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1243" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T17:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish you would be more clear, and less pugnacious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1244" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T17:20:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">"TAC is a heresy factory"=best quote of the week.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1245" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A lot of the class of 2014 wrote on Contemplation this year! Wow! I didn't notice that at graduation!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1246" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-22T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-22T17:28:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews "TAC is a heresy factory"<br />*******************************<br />Just because everyone discovers in Sophomore year that they are semi-pelagian...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1247" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Anthony Crifasi" data-date="2014-08-22T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anthony Crifasi at 2014-08-22T17:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm pouring a bucket of ice on my own head just for that quote alone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1248" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-22T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-22T17:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This conversation thread is making my head spin, probably because every time I see it there are around 200 additional comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1249" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-22T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-22T17:55:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure why, but "TAC is a heresy factory" just made me laugh so hard I snorted. And that's my last frivolous comment for now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1250" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-22T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-22T18:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only questionable comment I can recall was the blue book stating that graduating from the college was a sign of predestination. Hardly qualifies the college as a heresy factory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T18:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kurt, I have to thank Christendom College. Erin visited there when she was in high school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1252" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T19:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">if TAC is a heresy factory, why am i alone excommunicated?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1253" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T20:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heresy open bar?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1254" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-22T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-22T21:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heresy tapas bar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1255" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T21:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">heresy salad bar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1256" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-22T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-22T21:12:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does it say about our moral sense that the only thesis on ethics in the proposed theses doc is about torture, and not contra torture either?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1257" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-22T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-22T21:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, just to make things weirder:<br />There's a Muslim college in Berkeley, California inspired by TAC, in part. The founders are big fans of TAC.<br />And no, the name is not The Averroist College!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1258" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-22T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T21:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the "heresy factory" a quote from the Blue Book? (or is this a new addition?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1259" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-08-22T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-08-22T21:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Well, TAC grads create longer threads than FUS grads do....<br />But the FUS threads are dirtier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1260" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland: Modernist!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1261" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Susan Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Susan Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Bonaventure, In seminar, one discusses a text. It is not a setting for the presentation of someone elses conclusions. A tutorial would be closer to the setting for the kind of thing you are discussing. I am a St. Johnnie, not a TAC grad, so I don't know exactly what they do there, but if it is anything like St. John's, even in tutorial there is a spirit of inquiry. The texts would still be "great books", not a "textbook" and students would still be wrestling with the words of the writer. I would imagine that there would be some guidance from the tutor, which might at times include information about how various understandings of a work fit with doctrine. Why can't you just accept that different schools have different goals and methods, and choose to prefer the one you prefer, without haunting the threads of alumni of another college?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well. I finisned pater's mostly fine piece and the chapter on illative sense. Lots to say ....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually I think TAC is mixed on the torture debates, and probably most against. It is mixed about America as well.<br />But, of course, many at TAC think the Ethics are "easy" and "lowly" compared to the more difficult and noble and important and lofty natural philosophy and metaphysics...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-22T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be "selling out to do a thesis on Ethics. Still, many of these seem related, at least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hope it helps. Later...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1266" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-22T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T21:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ethics is boring... Well actually I think it was just more intuitive than motion for me. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1267" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-22T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T21:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unlike some of you people, I have a job! Sheesh...<br />In response to Pater Edmund, I started reading your link, and was quickly disappointed in the shallowness of assertions. Top of pg. 85, "Knowledge of things is not caused by their ideal forms, but by contemplating the thingsthemselves, or abstracting universals from them; it is founded, in a word, on experience."<br />And where on earth is that in Newman? Oh, no where. In fact, that is rejected quite expressly by him. He quotes Newman, from one of the same passages I quoted, but leaves out what he says about such generalizations.<br />I would certainly not call Newman the most radical nominalist. Any barely coherent nominalist epistemology has to have some version of a correspondence theory, resemblance, etc. But what is clear is that the "abstract" generalizations, for Newman, can only give us "probabilities" about concrete things. But he is interested in "concrete truths" so these universals, whatever role they may play, become irrelevant in knowing reality. He is extremely clear about that. That is not Aristotelian. And it sure as heck is not Platonist.<br />" The Grammar of Assent is relentlessly Aristotelian from start to finish"<br />I am sorry, but the more I read, the more I find there to be no argument, just assertions. Newman is not a Platonist because he waxed poetical.<br />And because he avers to Aristotle, so what? So did some of the greatest nominalists such of Ockham.<br />The only mention of universals in the Grammar I again already quoted. Where he mocks logic, as "dressing up middle terms" and proceeds to dismiss the search for universals, since that is not about the real, but the notional...not the concrete facts (that is all he cares about), but the abstract.<br />And there is only one other place, outside of unpublished notes (of which I post parts of one that show he had trouble, to his credit by his own admission, understanding the whole dispute!). That is here: in a comment following this one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1268" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-22T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T22:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">are we back to Newman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1269" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-22T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A very difficult question arises whether the subject of ideas comes directly into the province of Logic. Or in other words, whether names or terms stand for ideas or for things. It will be said that ideas and things go together, and therefore the question is unimportant ~ but there is the case in which there is, or is imagined, an idea without a thing, that is, the case of Universals.<br />Accordingly those then on the side of Things against Ideas, say that there are not universal ideas; and a controversy ensues which is nothing else than a portion of the old scholastic controversy, between the Nominalists, Realists, and Conceptionists."<br />Actually I tire of typing it out. I will summarize, in this passage he does say that a) he tends to agree with the Catholics in holding universals. b) but the onus of proof is on them c) and then he gives some lengthy unclear examples, and ends in saying that there are two types of universals. His examples are all about particulars. "and taking that question [whether Caesar refers to the thing or the idea] away, it certainly does seem more simple and natural to say the words stand for the things."<br />Heck he seems not to grasp what is meant by universal, in phrasing the question as he does (whether Caesar, a particular, refers to the man or the idea of Caesar). He ends arguing that it refers to the thing. Unless it is abstract. His examples of abstract versus ratio pura universals are "man is a rational animal" and "the whole is greater than the part" The latter is the only he accepts for reasoning, and his examples are all mathematical. The latter, again, only gives "probability" about concrete things.<br />We might recall that for Aquinas the universal is something that is attached to the essence as it exists in the mind, as an image with a likeness to many subjects. You could say Newman holds the same about his ideas corresponding to things, but where it becomes nominalist is that it becomes a mere generalization, not a universal truth, which is why we cannot know that Socrates is mortal just because he is a man and man is mortal. We have to know the "units" That is where real knowledge is for Newman.<br />cf. Lecture on Logic, Jan/Feb 1859</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1270" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-22T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Beitia, sorry, after less than a full night sleep and then a long day of work, I see Lendman asked for my response to Pater Edmund's link. So I obliged in spite of the intervening comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-22T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That said, I will go back and read more carefully the linked essay, lest I too readily dismissed it. I should have the time to do that sometime in 2015 (hey too much to do)....I only read snippets, and what seemed as assertions might substantiated later....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a number of observations about Pater Edmund's thesis (130 pages). It's a worthwhile read. In particular, my thesis that nominalism invites immanentism, he seems to confirm. It's only when he enters into Newman's epitstemology and development of doctrine (p. 84) that I start to disagree.<br />I second Joshua's comment about Newman's "Aristotelian" leanings. Just because Newman claims to be Aristotelian (p. 85) doesn't make it so: that would mean Ayn Rand is Aristotelian also.<br />There is a mistake in Pater's interpretation of Newman on p. 91 in the confused notion of real vs. notional apprehension. The boy's apprehension is notional when reading the poet's real apprehension. He may change it elsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Suffice it to say that the contradictions apparent in Pater's statements from Newman (contradictions in quotes by Pater Edmund of Newman) finally led me to open his Grammar of Assent, which seems so tedious. Instead of begin at the beginning, I tried finding some distinctions at first in chapter three, but was so confused by the apparent absurdity of distinctions that I read Maritain's introduction. Maritain assures the reader that the book is about Newman's coming to grips with assent to the truths of the Faith and that most interpretations are incorrect. I then proceeded to look at chapter nine to try and figure out what illative sense might mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is clear beyond doubt is that his is a very precisely crafted esoteric work, and I recommend a careful reading of chapter nine on illative sense. Now that I see what he is doing in that chapter the rest will be clearer. The chapter itself really almost stands entirely on its own.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is strange is that he doesn't really define illative sense (and why I had so much trouble trying to find definitions and distinctions earlier) until the second last page and the last sentence is quite a douzy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You've been warned. There be dark waters there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If he be Aristotelian, it is in an esoteric sense only. In the chapter alone, he rejects the logic both subtly and (I believe) explicitly. He delineates also a very hard core nominalism (a la Hobbes, wherefore the word "sense")</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1278" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-22T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be honest it was more the tediousness of the work than any position he took that turned me off from Newman....I read it before going to TAC too....I found it so tedious, I decided to read Aristotle and found him crystal clear in comparison...it gave me a leg up when I later went to TAC...<br />Mr. Ruplinger has more patience than I to be digging back into the text that much!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No I actually cracked the book several times before and just closed it. I have thought I should probably look at it some time and this was the final motive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LIS, ch. 9 to me is a bit clearer. I can say a lot about if anyone is interested. I certainly haven't mined everything there, but Newman has a reason for everything he writes. It's just a matter of unraveling all the apparent contradictions and figuring out what he's getting at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll can give some whopper quotes. But I'll begin with what illative sense is: "moral instinct" or "happy augury" (or something more deliberative perhaps). That seems to be the ultimate source of illative sense as PRINCIPLES: they are founded upon this "divining". In fact illative sense seems to me to be logic as he denigrates it. HIs last sentence is "And in all these delicate questions there is constant call for the exercise of the Illative Sense." Rereading it one realizes that he is uses Newman's (that is his own specially divined) illative sense in describing aspects (not it's nature) of illative sense at the end of section two. To be PRECISE, Illative Sense seems to be logic, but especially the grasping of our assumptions and how we come by them (only secondarily and in HIS sense, does he refer to demonstration which he restricts to elements of mathematical calculus). His third section is pretty devastating (or it seems merely to tell the truth) to any ability for agreement. All reasoning is profoundly solopsic (or so he says </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The first section on "Sanction" of illative sense: as it turns out is one's own self. Man is his own sanction, idiosyncratic man, and none else. Thus sanction is the "authority" of one's assumptions. Nothing outside himself. He begins in almost Cartesian fashion. But let the reader decide for himself what Newman says. This section proceeds strangely with several apparent contradictory sentences like “desire to change laws which are identical with myself.” Indeed, it seems that he subtly reasserting Hobbesian nature and right. Again he says of human nature, “it is his gift to be the creator of his own sufficiency; and to be emphatically self-made.” Newman doesn't spare here an idle word, even the first use of “his”.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...... So how does such a nominalist expect anyone to understand him, especially when Newman by the end of the chapter leads us to despair even of the posibility of communication or at least agreement? It is inconsistent. More over his statement of man being self-made, isn't that another act of illative sense which he derides at the end. Or is the last sentence of the entire chapter what he is using even right here? But he says to confirm that what is certain is what me myself and I say is certain, “there is no ultimate test of truth besides the testimony born to truth BY THE MIND ITSELF”. And I am not misquoting him. These seem to be his main points. MOREOVER, he refers to Bacon as “our own English philosopher” and later refers several ways and defers to him again and again. “Knowledge is power, for it enables us to use eternal principles which we cannot alter.” And then a derisory, as I take it, comment on all matters unBaconian: “materials in due measure of proof and assent” are apposite “abundant matter for mere opinion”. And so I take it that proof and assent are merely idle speculation, as a kind of relaxing recreation if not overindulged in (but in "due measure"). To be clear, all speculation is what he is talking about here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sections two and three are even more interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Section two (supposedly on the NATURE of Illative Sense), he spends mostly on "parallel" phronesis and briefly fine arts but ends outlining "respects" (or perspective?) on its "nature and its claims: <br />1. in itself: “one and the same in all concrete matters” ??? obscure to be sure. I really have little idea what he's talking about.<br />2. in definite subject-matters: some possess it some but not others and in some things but not others (historian vs. philsopher, but earlier he had a number of things to say about his kind of "phronesis")<br />3. in process: by a method of reasoning. But here “the elementary principle of that mathematical calculus of modern times”. Here he seems to be introducing HIS own illative sense of the ratiocinating aspect. Like Bacon, he would replace traditional logic with the new calculus. But this is never defined by Newman further, and is only mentioned here, whereas much of the rest of the time is spent diriding the blind "Illative Sense" of others it seems.<br />4. function and scope: there is no “ultimate test of truth and error in our inferences besides the trustworthiness of the Illative Sense that gives them its sanction.” – it is because I assent. The authority of the test is in MY ASSENT and none else</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-22T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-22T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eric Hutchinson, fyi</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, maybe I'll clean this all up. My notes and outline are considerably long. I'll pm Pater Edmund my observations on his work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-22T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-22T23:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">pm me too please</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1289" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-22T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And don't get me wrong. I really appreciate what Pater Edmund wrote. It's very good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1290" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T02:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Joshua for obliging me. Also, thank you, John for your thorough responses. Your position on Newman is now clear to my mind, and the texts you reference are compelling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1291" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T02:35:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">And just for anyone who might be outside the TAC community and reading this thread, we should make some things clear: <br />1. Peregrine Bonaventure is a disgruntled troll, who ought not to be directly addressed. We are not being cruel, but we have all tried to engage him in the past to no good result. <br />2. He raises good questions, but can't, or won't actually engage in coherent or thoughtful discourse.<br />3. TAC is one of the few schools in the world that, a.) really is and passes on a 'school of thought, and b.) understands what Sacred Theology is. <br />4.TAC does not confuse metaphysics and natural theology with sacred theology. Rather, it understands that a thorough understanding of the philosophical disciplines enable the mind to more clearly and cogently consider the truths of the faith. <br />5. Consequently, as a whole, its alumni do not teach things like "reason enlightens faith." Rather, the school as a whole teaches, together with the Church, that grace perfects nature, and faith perfects reason. However, that does not mean that faith supplants reason. Rather, we must have well developed reason, and then there is, as it were, more nature to be perfected. <br />My final direct address to Scott: I do apologize for losing my temper with you above. I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting way. Your questions are good. your reasoning is poor. You ought not to insult women. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1292" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-23T04:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-23T04:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are those who, though misunderstanding something, seek the honest truth about it. Then there are those who, though convinced something is wrong, abide by the higher law of devotion to the truth when they are answered. Finally, there are those who, though unable to understand someone else who seemingly disagrees with them, will at least respect the goodness of their intentions. These three enable discussion.<br />But there is a fourth sort of person that, assuming the other person is wrong for reasons other than what they say or believe, or even their tone, reasons inaccessible by discussion. To these people attempts to argue are not attempts to discuss, but to foment enmity against an opponent. Scott is such a person on this topic, his only topic, and it is not charity to enable the fomenting of schism by granting it a direct response or entertaining it as a serious discussion. If this thread should persist it is in spite of Scott, not because of him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-23T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-23T04:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edit: first sentence, second paragraph: "...inaccessible by discussion, seeks to undermine some 'enemy' point."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1294" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T05:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T05:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Joshua Kenz on the faults of my Newman paper; my linking it here bordered on trolling. All the greater is my admiration for John Ruplinger plowing through the whole thing! I owe you more than a decade, sir; I'm offering Mass for your intentions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1295" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T05:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T05:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the theses volume front (https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...)<br />I've added a section for proposals for titles for the whole volume. Proposals so far:<br />Learning and Discipleship: Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College<br />Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Matris: Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College<br />Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs<br />docs.google.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-23T07:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-23T07:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger PM me too, please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1297" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-23T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">on the road 7 hours. And a barn dance later. So til tomorrow. And thanks pater</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">uh oh.... this is dangerously close to petering out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1299" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T11:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmm... Perhaps I should say something controversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll go ahead and say that with the exception of junior and (some) senior year, lab at TAC is a waste. It could be structured so much better. But I'm probably one of like three people who actually care about lab</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1301" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-23T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T11:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">dont worry. I am holding back on my nuclear option should be good for another 1000 comments </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1302" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-23T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T11:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">neverendin, baby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1303" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T11:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Natural Science,' as it is now called, is quite good the last two years. Sophomore year is important at least, but I had a tutor poorly suited for the class, and I hated it. Freshman year Lab is a dreadful waste of time for all concerned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1304" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T11:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fabre is overrated. There I said it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1305" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-23T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-23T11:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, I loved Fabre! I found some of those readings to be amongst the most leisurely, wonderful, contemplative readings of the whole four years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-23T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-23T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Freshman year lab was great! And really helped with giving people experience of the natural world before moving into DeAnima!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1307" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T11:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Freshman lab is Micky Mouse pablum. And we take, what, 12 classes of fabre to demonstrate that insects aren't intelligent? Snore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1308" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T12:02:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll try to defend Freshman year lab too. If you're going to be (or are) a philosopher, or a natural scientist, or a theologian, or really anything, you need to learn from experience the importance of observation and reality. Then when you read Goethe or Harvey or Lavoisier or articles on wave theory or really anyone at all later on, you know from your own experience that they are basing their theories and work on careful observation. It's the difference between knowing something and KNOWING SOMETHING, just as you can know someone and know your spouse in entirely different ways. <br />You are not stuck in your head with purely intellectual arguments forever and you see the relation between the "visible things of creation" and the theological treatises you are studying when you are forced to go outside to watch bees and ants or trap horrid beetles. You are thrilled by seeing Rev. Roy Axel Coats pop by your classroom window with a butterfly net and a jar of insects. <br />You overcome whatever fear of arthropods you might have had and realize that the smallest, ugliest things of this world are part of the divine Dantean dance of love that moves the stars. <br />Also I know that freshman lab, particularly the understanding of teleology, beginning to see that things act for an end rather than being an arbitrary collection of accidents, was one key part in the beginning of my friend's conversion post-TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1309" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T12:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a beautiful defense, Catherine Ryland. I will say that I would respect the course a lot more if we read Darwin there, instead of relegating him to senior seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1310" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland, that might be true of some Platonic Idea of freshman lab; I don't know anyone whose experience was much like that though. And I came to TAC *wanting* that kind of thing (I had a strong background in natural history, and was much influenced by Goethe's approach to natural science)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">mostly it was about fumbling with things and staring out the window and the highlight was when some doofus despite all warnings actually did ingnite "Substance D" or whatever that stuff was</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1312" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T12:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My classmates tasted Substance D! (Wasn't that Pater Edmund?) And I think that was soph year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1314" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">talk about "KNOWING SOMETHING"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1315" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T12:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that was the point! <br />I remember both loving and being bored to tears by Fabre (though not at the same time or in the same respect), and I agree with the idea of perhaps reading even a selection from Darwin freshman year -- it makes sense. But I am still grateful for having to slog through scientific articles (however outdated) like the gull mating article and the infrared snake vision article, since now I can get the gist of some scientific articles without being a trained scientist. <br />And it was awe-inspiring to catch a living dragonfly and see its huge jewel-like eyes and watch the light and color go out of them completely when it sadly died. You understand substantial change much better (as Lauren points out re:the de Anima) even if you have never seen a person or a larger animal die before. <br />I remember John Cunningham's astonishingly beautiful living-insect terrarium/bug collection and wishing I hadn't chloroformed or frozen all my bugs. I also remember being really upset when I found my bug partner had bought his quota of bugs from the TAC insect black market. <br />That whole section of freshman lab was one of the highlights of the four years there.<br />I would say that somehow that part of the curriculum also helped in understanding or accepting that some things are knowable as first principles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1316" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, in principle. And honestly TAC should pay you to use these reveries in the Admissions packets</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1317" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:48:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">now I'm wondering if Substance D gave Pater Edmund superpowers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1318" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes! Or perhaps he had brain cells to spare... <br />I have plenty of things to tell the Admissions office and not all so cheerful. (To their credit, they warned me I needed more math, but I was too sanguine or too stubborn to believe just how much more I needed.) I've often said I'd like to start a PTACSD support group, since I've seen how many severely depressed people come out of there. Can't quite figure out why. <br />The campus policy "don't date until 2nd semester Junior Year" advice was terrible, and I can't believe I went along with it. What they really needed to say was "just go out to coffee with everyone unless you don't want to. Don't worry about marriage and don't be serious at all at first, and if you'd rather not go out for coffee then don't." Some of us can't seem to figure this out on our own.<br />I have other criticisms too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sophomore lab was a huge waste of time. I had AP chemistry in high school, so all the "experiments" in the lab double wide, were just poorly done imitations of what I had already known. <br />Phlogiston? Really? I'm wasting my time with this? Maybe it should have been called: "The slow painful process of learning the history of Chemistry - to 1800" and that would have been more accurate. Neither of the tutors I had for Fresh/Soph lab were even the slightest bit interested (it seemed).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1320" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">because we all know that matter is continuous and infinitely divisible, what's the point of studying "atom" and their discreteness, which is patently false, right? Lab before lunch, Aristotle's Physics with Berquist after lunch.... blah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Paul Babcock, what was it you said to Mr Berquist in that lab discussion? "It's not a #!**!@ fiction!!" ?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">something like that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(re: atoms)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1324" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-23T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-23T13:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Regarding PTACD, it took me a full year to surf my way back to sanity. (Not to mention going home to a very loving family.) Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for my experience there. But I am intrigued by this too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1325" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liam, this thread is really good evidence that "surfing your way back to sanity" isn't possible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, they are changing the Lab tutorial now to include more discussion about evolution and Darwin, etc. I think electro-magnetism is all but out. Einstein is going to be moved to Senior Math (where he, apparently, was originally placed).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mendel was in seminar when I went there. They moved him to freshman lab when I was a junior</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1328" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">They need to cut the SJC measurement manual out of the program entirely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES!<br />and phlogiston</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1330" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys missed the whole point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1331" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">...I like thinking about measures...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1332" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Pascal on the weight of the air is awesome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...and phlogiston.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the point of the measurement manual Catherine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1335" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">F*ck phlogiston</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1336" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC wouldn't be TAC without phlogiston.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1337" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Catherine about the bug collection and Fabre though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1338" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC wouldn't be TAC without non-being!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1339" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm against doing Darwin Freshman year because one hasn't done the Physics and the De Anima yet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1340" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is what I have come to later in life re: measurement. He who measures, wins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1341" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know I wasn't asked, but it seems to me that the question about measurement and what it means and how we know things through measures is a central theme that ran throughout the lab tutorials through the years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">re: Darwin: there's no problem reading it and remembering in the context of what you you learned freshman year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1343" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-23T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-23T13:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't surf *the web* back to sanity, Beitia!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1344" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Daniel, I agree completely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1345" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't have scientific inquiry (of a natural sort) without hefty doses of measurement. Look at all the astronomers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1346" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liam, the continuation of the thread is a strong argument that sanity is out the window. It caught fire because of phlogiston, and black bile, and all my messed up humours.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1347" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ Oh, but this is the most interesting stuff in the world. (And I haven't even begun my more recent critiques of TAC AND the magisterium.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">waiting for a /sarc</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1349" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they should let the Lab program come full circle so that second semester of senior year is Mendel and Darwin and genetics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1350" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes! I love it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1351" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Second semester of Freshman year could be Pascal on weight of air etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nah, they should read Sir James Jeans, or Heisenberg on the philosophy of science</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or Poincare on Science and Method</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1354" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">heresy petri dish + substance D = ptacd troll . . . AKA . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1355" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I think that is the new plan. Or something like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1356" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Could we all just take a moment and go back to that comment where Catherine said that she agreed with me completely?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1357" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That way Galilleo could be read second semester of Sophomore year, which would be fitting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1358" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:30:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Electro magnetism was a big fav of mine, so I'm sad to see it go. I wish they could go all the way and tackle quatuum mechanics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1359" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They just drastically overhauled a semester of senior or junior science - I think senior - to deal specifically with evolution and end with St. Thomas on providence ("regardless, check THIS out at the end"). Sounded like a fantastic set of readings from Darwin on out laying out issues forthrightly. Dr. Kaiser was a big part of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1360" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as long as they don't get rid of the light experiments. .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1361" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also how do you do Einstein without electro magnetism? Einstein is also all about measurement, but unlike freshman measurement manual, reading him is worthwhile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1362" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I liked electro-magnetism as well. There just isn't enough time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1363" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">they dont do Goethe's light experiments, which is a huge fail</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They should do Adolf Portmann Freshman year with the Fabre.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^absolutely! and Uexkull</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1366" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anyone did not get the point of Soph lab you should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Periodic.../dp/188393771X<br />The Mystery of the Periodic Table (Living History Library)<br />www.amazon.com<br />Leads the reader on a delightful and absorbing journey through the ages, on the trail of the elements of the Periodic Table as we know them today. He introduces the young reader to people like Von Helmont, Boyle, Stahl, Priestly, Cavendish, Lavoisier, and many others, all incredibly diverse in pe...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1367" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater I used to push for Portmann. To no avail</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1368" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Berquist too and everyone fell asleep but I thought Soph lab was crucial. Perhaps you could distill it into a shorter form. <br />You're basically learning the development of the scientific method in a hands-on way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1369" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">At Wyoming Catholic College they read Fisher's “Mathematics of a Lady Tasting Tea”; no idea what that is, but it sounds awsome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1370" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">also, they need botanical drawing in freshman lab and should hire Domiane to teach it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1371" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr. Kaiser also designed freshman lab, which could easily be done in 1 semester. I'll reserve judgment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1372" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This? <br />http://gymportalen.dk/.../Projekt9_1...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1373" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(222, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that looks great! TAC could also easily read Goethe on the nature and kinds of experiment, to great effect</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1374" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goethe on nature/science is a change I'd actually agree with.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1375" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was wiser than I knew when I first said that this was the best FB thread ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1376" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Big Angry Daniel: people would still think about measurement without the torture of the Manual.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1377" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not "THE GREAT MANUALS method"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1378" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm against torture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1379" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHAHAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well then let's all admit that Euclid could be taught differently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just sayin'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1382" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're supposed to think about precision of measurement vs. accuracy of measurement. The more precise you are, the less accurate you have the potential to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1383" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">BLASPHEMER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yeah, sophomore lab 2nd semester is the one place we really expirience the scientific method.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yep I went there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA: WHAT!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just sayin'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1388" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Euclid WAS taught differently. Depending on the tutor...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">literally LOL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1390" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Euclid....Prussian-style. I'll leave it at that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1391" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am now firmly on the side of the Syllabus of Errors, which I believe condemns the foul words recently uttered by JA Escalante.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1392" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:43:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the clerico-fascist empire that I will establish one of these days Calvinists who think that Euclid ought to be taught in any other way than THE WAY, will be burned first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some tutors were much more contemplative and meditative about Euclid than others. Certain tutors I have heard made it through far fewer props than others, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ You would.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1395" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although freedom of conscience of a sort is allowable, persecution of heresy of this kind is necessary for the common good.<br />We must race to seize power before this heretical Protestant in order to ensure the promulgation of The Truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How would you teach Euclid, Escalante?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1397" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-23T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I now I'm going to go pray Compline: sol non occidat super iracundiam vestram.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1398" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew this is just Stockholm Syndrome you've got</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1399" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">People who think people should be burned at the stake should be burned at the stake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1400" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">They got to me. You discovered wherein they got to me. I too was taken captive by...a German sort of Euclid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^our experience was identical, as you know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is why I expect more revolutionary bravery from you on this point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1403" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, for the record, Catherine just expressed a cardinal maxim of my political theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1404" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Hartmann. It was perfect. I got to teach it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah, one of TAC's great sins...the exile of Hartmann</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1406" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^my thesis advisor, fwiw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1407" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Joel: I would make it less an exercise in high-pressure rote memorization, and much more one of leisurely construction and contemplation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1408" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, quit being all ecumenical and asking questions n' stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1409" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't memorize a single prop. And I demonstrated them just fine. Rote memorization is not part of the TAC way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1410" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"no true Scotsman"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1411" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">neither did I. Learn the method of Euclid and follow it (For the record many of my demonstrations were not exactly the same as Euclids)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1412" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't learn to demonstrate props until Apollonius. It was then that I realized that it was not about memorization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1413" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it certainly shouldn't be</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1414" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">When assisting, Socratically, someone stuck at the board, I would always ask "what do you know" what have we learned before, most people can figure it out without too much help</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1415" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, I too often discovered variations at the board.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1416" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the first prop I demonstrated started a Sh*tstorm because I used different letters than the text. I used "hotdog" "smiley face" and "x" after that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1417" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante don't you mean "no true Prussian woman?" </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I rarely was allowed to demonstrate anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1420" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, you were by no means the measure or exemplar for how a typical person should do props. As I recall, Joel, you would often first study props in the minutes before class sophomore year, and then go to the board and demonstrate them marvelously, though often with variation. It was watching you that cued me into the fact that I was doing things wrongly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1421" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peter Fry would do that too. So amazing and depressing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1422" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only he wouldn't study them at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1423" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mostly just knocked the table with my knee so the spun bottle would point at some other wretch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1424" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He would just read the first line and demonstrate them his own way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1425" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apropos of nothing. If one is looking for a deal: <br />http://www.foxnews.com/.../21/5-best-value-rye-whiskies/...<br />5 best value rye whiskies<br />www.foxnews.com<br />From rich chocolate cake to a peppermint-topped concoction, you’re sure to find something to satisfy your sweet tooth this season.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1426" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peter Fry mathematical ability >>>>my mathematical ability</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1427" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T14:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can personally recommend Whistle Pig.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman our sophomore section was so insanely good. I learned more that year in section than any other year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1429" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">True. True. As did, I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1430" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Suddenly I miss TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1431" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:04:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stockholm Syndrome for sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1432" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwahaha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1433" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, I would like to have some kind of TAC Anonymous group to help undergrads know things like How to recognize the symptoms of depression and what to do about them. What to do when you don't want to look at another book for at least a year. What to do when encountering Thomists of a non-Lavalian stripe. (That last is a joke, but I think depression is very common. It could be that people of a melancholic bile tend to gravitate toward TAC.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1434" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T14:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante - sat right next the corner too, trying to minimize the potential angle of doom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC depression is very common. Is it the isolation? Is it the pressure of never getting away from the coursework? It is an odd, but very real, phenomena.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not quite sure why.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1437" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's the Brigadoon sense of the college. It's an intense experience, geographically isolated, and with too much of an unspoken assumption that there really isn't much truth or fellowship in seeking truth to be found outside its walls. Leaving is bound be depressing in that case</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">though honestly I was elated to bolt to Berkeley after sophomore year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1439" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is absolutely untrue, that there isn't much truth or fellowship "outside".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It wasn't the leaving that depressed me!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">indeed. I wasn't one to fall for TAC superstitions, but even my mind was blown when I met grad students at Cal and they turned out to be just as sharp and readerly as TAC friends</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me either, I was thrilled to graduate, though I enjoyed being there too, in a mixed way (like everything is mixed).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1443" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I heard a great quote about grad school the other day "where you forgo current income to forgo future income..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1444" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I burnt out senior year, and was glad to get going, though sad to leave friends. Though as Daniel Lendman says, I was hardly a model or exemplar student.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-23T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T14:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant that in the best possible way, Joel!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1446" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We need to have mini-TAC seminars all over the country (well world, really). With brunch and whiskey. I have Stockholm Syndrome too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_1448" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine the Johnnies do that; it always struck me as odd that TACers don't. But I think that's partly because of the TAC myth that the experience can't happen outside its walls</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1449" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's funny, I didn't run into that particular brand of TACism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was rampant when I was there...if you talked to faculty about grad school, they would start by shrugging and sighing with a sort of despair</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1451" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland: https://docs.google.com/.../1xBzrZlfGzxi5e4vjhulzIZL.../edit<br />Education Without Credentials - Google Docs<br />docs.google.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can imagine one thing -- you certainly can't recreate the experience of having four years to discuss everything. If you have brunch or a weekend, it ends too soon and that can be a little dampening.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, that sounds wonderful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1454" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T14:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many programs do something similar. I've given up hope on TAC per se (they should do what George does via the James Madison program in cities across the country with Princeton alumni for sheer fundraising proposes alone) but I think there is a lot of room in this space - as many people are starving for something like this - and not just TACers.<br />By doing it regularly - like going to a gym or club - one can satisfy the appetites over time.<br />Examples abound, from Clubs in English mining towns to the lyceums in Lincoln's America.<br />There is no reason we can't do this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1455" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Henry Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-23T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:37:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a bit late on the topic of measurement, but one thing that would help Freshman Lab and Sophomore math would be to have a some observations of the basic motions of the heavens over a few months. The bit of observation we did at the beginning of Sophomore year was a joke. It's a good chance to think about how measuring works and it would make astronomy a lot more imaginable for a lot of students--perhaps it could even ensure that there would be no future debacle's like the Great Kolbeck Ptolemy Final Massacre of 2003.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1456" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Domiane Forte" data-date="2014-08-23T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Domiane Forte at 2014-08-23T14:39:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante: I'm visiting WCC right now, dreaming about applying for position and moving to Lander to develop just that kind of artistic/naturalist program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1457" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What Henry Zepeda said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Henry Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-23T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think St. Mary's Integral Program does a bit better with the observational side of astronomy, but I'm not quite sure what they do. Joe Zepeda, do you guys have astronomical observations as part of Freshman year lab/science?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1459" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-23T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Henry Zepeda don't most students get that anyways while drinking heavily in the wood? It might be a bit redundant. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1460" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the stars are spinning unnaturally in that circumstance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Henry Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-23T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in the circumstance Joel mentions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Henry Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-23T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what circumstance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1464" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Henry Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-23T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The neverending threat moves too fast for me!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1465" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"drinking heavily in the woods"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1466" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T15:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">^first chapter of my autobiography</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-08-23T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-08-23T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has this thread won the Internet yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1468" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-23T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T15:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In the beginning of life, in a dark wood drinking heavily...."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1469" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-08-23T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-08-23T15:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel so privileged to have played a small role in this. Do all of us get a check or something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1470" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-23T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. I believe peregrine gave your name a check on his list of suspected heretics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-08-23T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-08-23T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*Suspected*? That's all? I have failed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1472" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-23T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T15:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am on the soon to be burned. So idk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-08-23T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-08-23T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When they burn me I hope they use cedar. I love the smell of cedar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-23T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">all right. I need to stop being mean. Unjust excommunication has no merit this way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred theology. If you try to plant these seeds across the nation, you will get major blow back from sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T17:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many TAC students does it take to change a light bulb?<br />A: Just one, but it takes a very long time. You have to wait till senior year, then the student can just hold the light bulb over his head, while the entire Cosmos revolves around him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many Christendom students does it take to change a light bulb?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1478" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T17:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many Christendom students does it take to change a lightbulb?<br />Lightbulbs?! Wa-choo looking at our lightbulbs for? Our lightbulbs are just fine... we like 'em just the way they are, thank you very much... now why don't you just go back to where you came from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1480" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-23T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-23T19:07:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also: How many TACers does it take to change a light bulb?<br />A: It depends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1481" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"TAC exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred theology." That's funny, I have a (non-TAC) friend who thinks that TAC depression comes from the overabundance of dogmatic and doctrinaire theology found there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting statement from St. Thomas Aquinas against the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Relying on Aristotle's anotion of ensoulment, Thomas asserts: “If the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of original sin, this would be derogatory to the dignity of Christ..” Thomas maintained: “The Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin, but was cleansed from it before her birth from the womb” (III, 27, 2, ad2). <br />In the 14th C, the Franciscans opposed the Dominicans by supporting the Immaculata. At the Council of Basil, the Church declared that Mary was not included in the doctrine on original sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because of St. Thomas, and his Aristotelean view of the human soul -- which contended that ensoulment takes place after conception, and only a rational being could be preserved from sin -- the Dominicans were the last hold out within the Church in support of the Immaculate Conception.<br />In the 19th Century, Pope Pius IX, with support from a vast majority of bishops, and shortly after the vision of the Miraculous Medal which reads "O Mary, conceived without sin..." the Church promulgated the infallible doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. <br />I think this shows the need for assent in sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1484" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I think this shows the need for assent in sacred theology." No problem there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, how many Christendom students does it take to change a light bulb?<br />A: That's not really the right question to ask. Chirstendom students aren't allowed to do anything until the Magisterium tells them it's ok, and that can take centuries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, "doctrinaire theology" I think is what Liberals say. It is baseless. They see it as dead and lifeless. Indeed, there version of it is. But in the true sense, we are just talking about first principles, when we talk about dogmas, and assent to first principles by faith, not because they are self-evident to the reason, but by grace and assenr. We depart from first principles as we launch into theological inquiry, in the same way that medieval science departs from self evident first principles. Or we can arrive at dogma, through an examination of the theological debate which led to the dogma. The Immaculate Conception for example. I do not see how anyone could see this is doctrinaire or anything other than animated and life+giving.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perescott, you still haven't defined what YOU mean by sacred theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Q: How many TAC students does it take to change a light bulb? I really need to know.<br />A: Don't worry, it all becomes clear for you senior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">B'tia, do you really want a definition? Or are you just asking? Pearls before swine and all... I can give you a definition that would melt your soul and help you slay dragons, but you've really got to want it..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1490" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T19:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does! You know everything there is to know in the whole universe by senior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1491" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've only been asking you for IDK 2.5 YEARS to define what the hell you're talking about, Scottegrine....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1492" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe less, I exaggerate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1493" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-23T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-23T20:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liam Collins- I'm guessing your dad is Sean? I just want to say that senior lab with him was unforgettable. One of my all time favorites- he is just so perfectly suited to that kind of thing. I don't know what they're changing from that class, but it would be a shame if they keep Faerie Queen but change senior lab. I'll always remember the class where your dad asked what it means to say "at the same time" and I quickly gave what I considered to be a good explanation, and he kept picking it apart and then I realized that I couldn't really define it. It was like the time in junior theology when Kolbeck said he fell out of his chair the first time he realized that, since God's essence & existence are one and the same (I'm paraphrasing quite a bit here), then when we have the beatific vision, God is literally dwelling in our minds.... it's moments like that that I like to relive when I think back to my Arcadia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1494" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Sean Collins for senior lab as well. Excellent man for the job</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1495" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-23T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-23T20:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's inaccurate. It's junior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1496" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew everything by sophomore year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1497" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-23T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-23T20:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Precocious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1498" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was one wise fool</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Such madness... and schadenfreude...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1500" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T20:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, are you ready for a definition of sacred theology, a definition to set the world on fire?<br />I deliver a promise to not overpromise and underdeliver.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right now, everything is happening at the same time. Just a thought. I digress...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1502" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-23T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-23T21:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always through that junior and senior math and science needed major revision. But I also had Mrs. Gustin for senior math, which was a disaster (that may not have been the case had it been just a few years before)<br />What is covered freshman and sophomore year was okay. But there is a reason Fabre is often sold to homeschoolers....a fun text maybe through middle school. Of course you cannot presume that freshman would have covered such basic things, but I still think of sophmore and freshman year as remedial, and the important aspects able to be accomplished much more quickly.<br />Senior year needed more order. And more competent tutors. Ours for science was actually good. The same cannot be said of say junior mathematics. Frankly after having what sadly devolved to a shouting match with the tutor over what dx/dy meant, I was bemused the next morning to overhear Dr. Ferrier repeating to my tutor the exact same points I made...even if one competently, you end with what is in some aspects less than HS calculus. And you only can hope to get infinitesimal calculus down. Which is woefully way behind. You never even hear epsilon, delta.<br />And we do a terrible disservice to non-Euclidean geometry, e.g. the hyperbolic geometry of Lobachevsky....heck how many students, in all foolishness tried proving the 5th postulate? Or squaring the circle, or giving a Euclidean trisection of the angle? All of which things are not simple unproved, but proved to be impossible. Heck many students didn't understand what was even meant by "Euclidean" when one said there was no way of trisecting the angle with "Euclidean geometry"<br />But frankly I liked Freshman and Sophomore year math. It could be improved, yes. But I found no major fault with it. The sort of things raised later, such as incorrect proofs given by Euclid that moderns have found I don't mind being ignored (partially because many of them may not be incorrect, e.g. book I prop I is listed as a faulty proof by moderns, because it assumes without proof that the two circles intersect....but that really goes to an argument over the nature of mathematics...and not a new one. Proclus gave that as an example of an error of Euclid.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1503" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T21:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm. . . I had Molly before the decline... and the order was well done. But I had her for both junior and senior math, so I can't speak to any other tutor with deficient knowledge of the subject. <br />I loved non-Euclidean geometry, but wish we would have read Gauss instead. Or maybe Georg Cantor... after Molly's decline it seems like there isn't much left of that tutorial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1504" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-23T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone else think a whole semester on the Politics is unnecessary? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1505" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T21:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Possibly, but please don't even think about taking time away from the Ethics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-23T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Definition of Sacred Theology:<br />A preamble...<br />Let's define sacred theology. Let us give it a definition, in the same way that the lesser sciences have a definition; in the same way that natural theology (metaphysics) or geometry have been given a definitions. And what is a definition but a central truth? and how important truth is to knowledge! for, just as in the lesser sciences, an error is something that is not true, it is a falsehood, or an error in definition. But in sacred theology, which deals with higher things, what is an error in definition but a heresy? So let us define sacred theology in such a way as to ensure that every curriculum can adopt it easily, so that it helps the student begin at the right place and proceed in the right direction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-23T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about genus and difference? Can you do that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1508" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-23T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T21:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, how about a cease-fire at least until the initial proposed definition is made? I for one am interested.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1509" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-23T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-23T22:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not to be picky, Nina, but it's Bueller! As in Ferris Bueller!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-23T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha i had a classmate in highschool who spelled it that way... sorry... fixed it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1511" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-23T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-23T22:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"To do theology - as the Magisterium understands theology - it is not sufficient merely to calculate how much religion can reasonably be expected of man and to utilize bits and pieces of the Christian tradition accordingly. Theology is born when the arbitrary judgment of reason encounters a limit, in that we discover something which we have not excogitated ourselves but which has been revealed to us."<br />- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Nature and Mission of Theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1512" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T22:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina Rachele - I think a semester on the politics and ethics is more than needed - it is vital. The problem is the way it is treated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-23T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the way it is treated? you mean, the method, or the attitudes toward it of students or tutors?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-23T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do believe in a full semester on the ethics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1515" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-23T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T22:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Attitudes and the framework within which it is set. Definitely should be seen as vital - more related, in fact, to life as lived by most graduates ever after than much of what student think they value more.<br />How many people have gone into philosophy to study the "higher things" and fizzled out? Heh. I know a lot of peeps with a Masters in Metaphysics.<br />But we all live with politics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1516" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-23T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's one reason why I think it should be read in seminar, along with the other works of political science. Preferrably in its entirety, before we read Hobbes, for example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-24T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-24T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*er, I guess the hidden premise in that statement is that I always thought of seminar (for the most part) as the class where we *were* trying to connect to life lived outside and after TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1518" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Shannon Williams" data-date="2014-08-24T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Shannon Williams at 2014-08-24T00:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">...and, you know, to feelings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1519" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Shannon Williams" data-date="2014-08-24T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Shannon Williams at 2014-08-24T00:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I think I kind of thought of it that way too)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1520" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Peter Halpin" data-date="2014-08-24T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Peter Halpin at 2014-08-24T01:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm blocking this undead mess of a thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T07:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T07:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, be careful about engaging the troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1522" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T08:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T08:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am in fact interested in the magisterium topic because I've been struggling with my own difficulties (not because I am a TACer for sure -- on the contrary) to accept what it is and what kind of sway it really ought to have over intellectual inquiry, primarily because I was discussing it with someone over a certain period of time. <br />My friend pointed out something I heard several times but haven't actually paid attention to: When a tutor takes the oath of fidelity, he or she says "... I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act." <br />This is clearly not talking about ex cathedra statements, because intention and pronouncement in a certain formula is clearly required for infallible statements. How is something part of the magisterium when the pope/bishops do not even intend it to be definitive? What does the above section of the oath even mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T08:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T08:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard for me to understand how we can have actual intellectual inquiry if we have already decided to submit our minds to things not intended to be taught definitively by very fallible people (i.e. the pope and the college of bishops not making formulaically infallible statements).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1524" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T08:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T08:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I understand not all tutors must take this oath (I suspect the non-Catholic faculty would not), but the wording of the oath sounds misguided. http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/catholic-life/oath-fidelity<br />Oath of Fidelity | Thomas Aquinas College<br />www.thomasaquinas.edu<br />In keeping with the College’s commitment to remain faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and in accordance with canon law, members of the Thomas Aquinas College faculty take the Oath of Fidelity and make the Profession of Faith, printed below:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1525" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T08:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T08:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The CDF in its commentary on that paragraph states: «To this paragraph belong all those teachings – on faith and morals – presented as true or at least as sure, even if they have not been defined with a solemn judgement or proposed as definitive by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Such teachings are, however, an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and intellect.18 They are set forth in order to arrive at a deeper understanding of revelation, or to recall the conformity of a teaching with the truths of faith, or lastly to warn against ideas incompatible with those truths or against dangerous opinions that can lead to error. A proposition contrary to these doctrines can be qualified as erroneous or, in the case of teachings of the prudential order, as rash or dangerous and therefore 'tuto doceri non potest'.» http://www.vatican.va/.../rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1526" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T08:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T08:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even when they do not speak definitively the successors of the Apostles are authentic "witnesses to divine and Catholic truth," and "speak in the name of Christ" (Lumen Gentium 25), "The one who hears you hears me." (Luke 10:16).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T09:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And what if they contradict prior teaching? Especially when it is held by a majority of theologians as infallible. The very basis is a document whose authority is not de fide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1528" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T09:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is the judge of whether they contradict prior teaching?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T09:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. It silences discussion of the most urgent questions. Why not the oath against modernism? Are we not to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current magesterial "teachings"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, what is to be held de fide by the faithful? That is the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of the very terms in that CDF explanation is comdemned. What does "deeper understanding" mean. An ambiguous law is not binding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1532" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current teaching. Of course. Hermeneutic of continuity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again read carefully the Hermeneutic of continuity instruction. Can you define the terms used unambiguously? Can a submission of Faith be required of non-infallible statesments which seem to contradict prior more authoratative teaching AND all discussion of those apparent contradictions be forbidden?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you see my frustration?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously it is necessary to discuss apparent contradictions. Especially apparent contradictions between teachings that require submission of faith (Unam Sanctam for instance) and those that require merely religious submission of will and intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1536" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">then we agree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1537" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-24T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T10:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many discussions do we have going on here at the same time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">distinguish: religious submission vs. assent of faith</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1539" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_1540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cant see that... off to mass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1541" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The picture was for Lauren Ogrodnick.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1542" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But John Ruplinger, assent of faith is strictly speaking only given to truths contained in the deposit of faith, but religious submission can be given to truths in some way connected to that deposit, or to prudential decisions of the rulers of the Church, the successors of the Apostles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1543" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The former is an act of the supernatural virtue of faith, the later is an act of the virtue of religion, a part of the virtue of justice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This relates to Catherine's question as well as Newman and development of doctrine and magesterium and theology at tac and how to teach. When it ends it will be clear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1545" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It will never end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1546" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is not strictly true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1547" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">wherefore i winked</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and when the one contradicts the other, what then? (And i see the hermeunetic of continuity as keeping open wide the door to private interpretation of dogma)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1549" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course fb could continue in heaven and thus it be strictly true too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1550" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The living teaching office of the Church, especially that of the Supreme Pontiff, is the final judge when there is a dispute about seeming contradictions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but has he so judged?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1552" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The talk was a series of assertions and interjections. Ambrose lived in and for conversation; he rejoiced in the whole intricate art of it - the timing and striking the proper juxtaposition of narrative and comment, the bursts of spontaneous parody, the allusion one would recognize and one would not, the changes of alliance, the betrayals, the diplomatic revolutions, the waxing and waning of dictatorships that could happen in an hour's session about a table. But could it happen? Was that, too, most exquisite and exacting of the arts, part of the buried world of Diaghilev?" (E. Waugh)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">About what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1554" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-24T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't you have to go to Mass?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the disputes are not aired or hardly breathed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1556" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T11:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacred Theology:<br />A short definition.<br />Sacred theology is the science pertaining to all supernatural truths revealed by God to man in the sacred deposit of the Faith, under the authority of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in Her extraordinary and ordinary capacities. It is distinct from natural theology (metaphysics) whose object is Being, and God, and which proceeds by reason.<br />The longer definition of Sacred Theology will be given before Peterson's fb page turns into a pumpkin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1557" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T12:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now I see where you go wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sic ergo theologia sive scientia divina est duplex. Una, in qua considerantur res divinae non tamquam subiectum scientiae, sed tamquam principia subiecti, et talis est theologia, quam philosophi prosequuntur, quae alio nomine metaphysica dicitur. Alia vero, quae ipsas res divinas considerat propter se ipsas ut subiectum scientiae et haec est theologia, quae in sacra Scriptura traditur. <br />Utraque autem est de his quae sunt separata a materia et motu secundum esse, sed diversimode, secundum quod dupliciter potest esse aliquid a materia et motu separatum secundum esse. Uno modo sic, quod de ratione ipsius rei, quae separata dicitur, sit quod nullo modo in materia et motu esse possit, sicut Deus et Angeli dicuntur a materia et motu separati. Alio modo sic, quod non sit de ratione eius quod sit in materia et motu, sed possit esse sine materia et motu, quamvis quandoque inveniatur in materia et motu. Et sic ens et substantia et potentia et actus sunt separata a materia et motu, quia secundum esse a materia et motu non dependent, sicut mathematica dependebant, quae numquam nisi in materia esse possunt, quamvis sine materia sensibili possint intelligi. <br />Theologia ergo philosophica determinat de separatis secundo modo sicut de subiectis, de separatis autem primo modo sicut de principiis subiecti. Theologia vero sacrae Scripturae tractat de separatis primo modo sicut de subiectis, quamvis in ea tractentur aliqua quae sunt in materia et motu, secundum quod requirit rerum divinarum manifestatio. <br />Super Boethium De Trinitate, Q. 5, a. 4, Resp.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dont believe i make a mistake in this regard. Can you be specific? Or is this to Peregrine? I dont think I have denied the distinction though i perhaps i mistake the full scope of metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1560" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-24T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T13:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that response was addressed to you </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, you last asked, I believe, what things have not been judged by the pope. I must respond that in recent years, no matters of undisputed contraversies have been decided. As such, it seems we are required to hold with religious assent those that the Church has always taught or those held before. The very doctrine of whether or how doctrine can change is at issue.<br />Let me ask this instead. To renounce matters that demand the assent of Faith, is to renounce one's Faith. Shall I then renounce my Faith, to submit to matters that require religious submission? Moreover, am I not extended some sympathy, especially in light of Dignitatis Humanae? Does Nostra Aetate only assume good will in heretics, Jews, Muslims and even unbelievers, but none in Catholics who in no way reject the Faith? Or shall Ecumenism embrace all the former with open arms but her own faithful for “errors” unexplained have only derision and scorn? Again, the hermeneutic of continuity slams the door on any inquiry that merely happens to find discontinuity, but this is a sly and underhanded trick and I call foul. Why? Because if some of the present teachings that require mere religious assent contradict some teaching that requires by Faith (and to keep the Faith) assent of Faith, isn't it a false reasoning that only tries to “correct” the constant teaching by making it conform by hermeneutical trick to the “new” teaching?<br />To phrase it another way the hermeneutic of continuity demands that there be no objection: indeed it nods in favor to new teaching over established teaching making the latter conform to the former. In another way I read it as the pope saying, “Continuity, let there be continuity, there will be continuity.” As to scholastic objections, the reponse: “non disputandum est.” And actions bear this out. For Gheradini took decades before he mildly voiced his well scientificly reasoned (scholastically speaking) argument. He produced no rash judgements (of what I've read). He merely introduced questions. And yet the house that published his work in English is now SHUT DOWN. Unbelievable. Non disputandum est. And how can you or anyone know what are the contraversies or objections if they can't be voiced but AS YOU DID, merely say “hermeunetic of continuity” and discussion be damned? But you sacrifice Faith to current fad. <br />And as to the instruction, I'll focus on one point only. It is ambiguous. What is the hermeneutic? Is it “of reform” or “of renewal”. By making these terms apposite, the pope has nullified his own directive. For is it reform? Or is it something new? What does he mean by reform? What Pius X meant? Again, an ambiguous law is not binding. So even it were ever right to correct irreformable dogma to make it continuous with novelty, the very decree that mandates this is null for its ambiguity (and that on only one point, for other terms too are ambiguous). <br />Anyways, something while I work on Newman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1562" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that was not addressed to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1563" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I kinda guessed, but as you know I can't see Peregrine. Ironic, that invisibility was the only reason I entered this thread, and now I can't get out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, your last comment has made me laugh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, your thoughts about the hermeneutic of continuity are very interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1566" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have two thoughts:<br />1. It seems to me that the assent of faith does not give way to religious assent. (Here I think of Joan of Arc) <br />2. It seems that the hermeneutic of continuity, in order to be authentically employed, cannot "nod in favor of new teaching over established teaching. Rather, it must see how there is a concord, and reconcile both according to the authority of said teachings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1567" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that last comment is addressed to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1568" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T14:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is no escape. But Youknowwho distinguished "Sacred Theology" from metaphysics (natural theology to him) insofar as natural theology proceeds by reason. So I suppose Sacred theology is unreasonable. <br />All clear here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1569" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Firstly, I don't imply that Pope Benedict played an underhanded trick. It is merely the effect of the words logically and concretely (as Newman might say).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Daniel Lendman:<br />As to the first, she was never asked to deny an article of Faith and so it does not apply. As to the second, the problem is that it elevates any statement to level of infallible doctrine. There is NO WAY to question it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1571" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Additionally, he falsely asserted that metaphysics treats of God as a subject. This mad clear to me a great number of his problems. Because he holds this definition he needs to find a way to distinguish between metaphysics and theology. This is why he makes such a big deal about "assent to the fulness of faith." Of course we agree with him that Sacred theology requires the assent of faith, but we don't need to make such a strong distinction there. We follow Aquinas and distinguish according to formal objects. Sacred Theology alone treats of God directly. This is why the whole Summa Theologiae is Theology. Even the preambles; even the stuff that can be known by reason! Why? Because it is proceeding according to a higher light, and starting with God as its formal object.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are objections to be tossed with the scholastic method as well? (continuing my previous post)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1573" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you make a good point with regards to the second. I have seen this with VII. There is a tendency, because there are so few/no formal definitions in Vatican II documents to assume that every thing and every word is infallible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1574" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it not ironic that we can question former teachings of the Chruch under the "doctrine" of development, but we are barred from questioning any current statements (and how current? today's? fifty years ago?) under religious submission? The only ground for criticizing current teaching (or the best I should say) is prior teaching; thus the grounds for valid criticism have been undercut.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus while criticizing those who treat Vatican II like superdogma, Benedict also elevated the same to level of infallibility, not per se, but because they cannot be criticized on account of "religious submission" of LG and the requirement of heremeneutic of (reform, of renewal in) continuity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1576" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T14:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">hence the nostalgia for one page encyclicals.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yet another riddle: almost every peritus (including Ratzinger) has at some time declared discontinuity or even rupture (either triumphantly or with remorse)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1578" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">why can't we throw Unum Sanctam and Nostra Aetate in a ring and watchem duke it out?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1579" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T15:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Youknowwho called me a heretic for quoting Unum Sanctam and taking it seriously. But I guess that's what I get for sticking to the wrong Magisterium. I'm supposed to follow the ordinary, I guess, not the one that defines and proclaims......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or one Matthew might like : Libertas vs. DH. [I'll bet it all on the former btw ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno. Seems like VII is treated as superdogma by almost no one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1582" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sweet, someone mentioned Joan of Arc. I was also thinking of her. Daniel , you are on a roll!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1583" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Though I still recommend kindness to people (including "trolls"), even if they are unkind back to you.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1584" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but can any one say what it means? authoratatively? If we changed this thread to "will the real vii stand up", we could guarantee its unendingness. (Matthew)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1585" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T15:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't that the problem though -- not even the magisterium knows what the magisterium actually includes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1586" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or means. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland,4 before the Second Renaissance of the never-ending thread (inaugurated largely by your return) I posted this with regards to the troll. You may not have seen it.<br />"My final direct address to Scott: I do apologize for losing my temper with you above. I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting way. Your questions are good. your reasoning is poor. You ought not to insult women. That is all."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1588" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just don't see many saying or acting as if VII was superdogma.<br />I do see a lot of people on this thread making superdogma out of a tiny fraction of other councils and Papal pronouncements ripped out of context to suit their own present purposes, however.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1589" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-24T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T15:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew , I wish I grew up in your world! Vatican 2 was all I heard of growing up and even the Baltimore catechism was thrown out for being outdated. Then again it's usually treated as "super dogma" without actually being understood or sometimes even read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1590" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-24T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T15:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, I also encounter a lot of V2 as Superdogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's not superdogma - that's simply finding an excuse for licentiousness. <br />Those people don't believe in such a thing as dogma, and that is not the fault of VII. <br />The original sin of traddies everywhere is blaming the sudden use of VII as VII's fault. Whatever it's faults, if the Church was not already as it was no one would have been for the liturgical changes that it obviously did not force on anyone - and the masses would have used VII against its abusers. Let's not pretend they did so.<br />In any event, it's not superdogma - most of the people you are complaining about have read less of VII than you. They aren't even very familiar with it, and they don't truly hold to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1592" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But their use of VII is similar to the select use of certain Papal pronouncements and encyclicals and councils on the other extreme, I suppose.<br />In both cases we know the obvious black and white position of the Church via a few mantras ripped out of context to fit the personality and predilections of the proponent in contemporary life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1593" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-24T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T15:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can tell when this thread will be resuscitated -- when you get notification that someone is 'liking' your posts from 2 days ago...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no the problems surely predate vii. And how can i bring up all the docs of the prior hundred years. Lots more than a couple docs. One could point to entire corpora of some popes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DEFINITION OF SACRED THEOLOGY:<br />CRITIQUE OF THOMAS AQUINAS COLLEGE<br />Sacred theology is the study of divine revelation. It is more than the study of God. It is the study of what God is saying to man. Sacred theology proceeds as a science, from principles first and better known, to new knowledge, through study of its first principles, and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the Faith, and in the development of the Church’s doctrine and dogma.<br />In Catholic liberal education, sacred theology is the highest science. It begins with Wisdom. Wisdom is a supernatural virtue, that makes the soul responsive to assent to divine truths. In Catholic liberal education, Wisdom does not have a double meaning: Wisdom is not also defined as the end of natural theology or metaphysics. Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord, which is an assent to revelation and the deposit of the Faith. It is those things which are not revealed by flesh and blood, but by “my Father in heaven.” (Matthew 16).<br />However, in its Charter, Thomas Aquinas College has mis-defined Wisdom, but stating that it comes through study of the great masters. It even falsely claims that papal encyclicals have asserted that wisdom comes at the end study of the Masters, rather from the beginning of the fear of the Lord, where it says that “papal encyclicals made it plain that the perennial wisdom was to be studied through the works of the great masters…” <br />Indeed, Thomas Aquinas College seems to admit that its version of Wisdom is incomplete when it says in its charter that “metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology.”<br />However, metaphysics is not necessary for the full development of sacred theology. But assent to divine revelation is, and this is what is missing in the curriculum at Thomas Aquinas College. <br />In fact, the few doctrines that Thomas Aquinas College teach in its curriculum are rarely, if ever, demonstrative of the role of theological Wisdom and the Magisterium in the development of the doctrine.<br />As a matter of Faith, sacred theology is supported by numerous infallible teachings of the Church, including:<br />That man has the gift of the sacred science by infusion of grace; that this grace is infused in man prior to an act of free will; that the vision of God transcends natural cognition; that even God’s existence is an object of supernatural faith, not merely reason; and that it is impossible without grace to study the faith and come to the correct conclusions. <br />It is wholly inadequate for a Catholic college to exclude sacred theology from its curriculum, especially when it proposes to be the completion of liberal education.<br />Yet Thomas Aquinas College imposes its version of natural theology into the place of sacred theology when it makes its unfounded claim that “theology completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free man.” In proper context, the charter of the college is speaking of metaphysics when it uses the word “theology” in the preceding quote. It claims then that this type of Catholic education presents “liberal education in its fullness.”<br />This is a false claim; for by its own admission the college admits that it does not present theology in its fullness; while again falsely claiming that its version of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of the study of sacred theology. Both of these claims are false. For sacred theology begins with assent to divinely revealed principles revealed by grace and imparted by Wisdom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The more one reads, the more the contrast appears. And the more clear the underlying problems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-24T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We finally have a definition on the table.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In short, TAC says in its charter that its curriculum and presentation of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of theology as a science. In fact, the Church, infallibly, states the exact opposite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moreover, Matthew, your barb misses the mark. I dont think i have quoted one text. Pascendi, i have refered to most and as a whole, but that and the oath as well as its promulgation and Lamentabile Sana are not like others. Their roar still reechoes and the mere mention causes sneers or knees to quake. Not your typical papal decree of the last 500 years. EDIT: no quote of a pre vii text.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1600" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">for those John) who can't see it:<br />"Sacred theology is the study of divine revelation. It is more than the study of God. It is the study of what God is saying to man. Sacred theology proceeds as a science, from principles first and better known, to new knowledge, through study of its first principles, and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the Faith, and in the development of the Church’s doctrine and dogma."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1601" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-24T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-24T16:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think I've known others who have treated VII as a super dogma in itself, but it begins to take that appearance when they act dismissive to the previous 1900+ years of the Church's teachings and existence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1602" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:06:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson: No one has ever claimed Trent, or Lateran IV or Florence was "THE COUNCIL". VII gets that treatment. I've been told VII overrides and nullifies everything that came before, an obvious impossibility from the Catholic perspective.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's like trying to read Lumen Gentium without having read Mystici Corporis. Not freakin' possible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Simple right way of thinking:<br />Interpret the obscure by the plain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1605" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-08-24T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-08-24T16:13:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">So... not having attended TAC (unless you count those three classes I sat in on about 10 or 11 years ago), I can't help but interject, because I teach class tomorrow evening and have a dissertation to write, so, I need pointless procrastination. Plus this thread has popped up in my feed every day for the last however long and yada yada yada.<br />I agree that TAC ought to have more education in sacred theology. I think that's a good thing, though one which is understandably difficult to incorporate into a great books curriculum. I am not proposing any solution.<br />But, this last diatribe by Peregrine is, well, just wrong, at least according to St. Thomas. Wisdom is manifold. We talk about the wisdom with regard to practical matters, i.e., prudence (In Nic. Eth., lib. VI, lec.6-10); we talk about wisdom as a knowledge of the highest principles of reasoning about matters proportionate to human understanding (ibid., lec.5-6); we talk about wisdom as a gift of the Holy Spirit infused by grace, by which man judges rightly through inclination, and we talk about wisdom as a principle of judgment through knowledge, as the whole who has attained knowledge of highest principles and their application to further knowledge through some study (ST Ia q.1, a.6, ad.3),<br />Moreover, Thomas states repeatedly in the Summa Contra Gentiles that a study of the things of earth, of the works of creation, is useful and in some ways even necessary for understanding the things of faith (e.g., SCG I, c.7-8, II, c.2-4).<br />Consider: if there are errors which seem to invalidate the teaching of sacred theology which can be overcome only by a systematic development of metaphysics, then, in the realm of intellectual development, is not a rightly-considered metaphysics necessary for the teaching of sacred theology?<br />I hope I'm not butting in too much... I just hate seeing Thomas misappropriated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The definition of sacred theology has been around for hundreds of years. It's surprising how anyone could have missed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-24T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Regarding supercouncil status in deed:) and my many attempts at rephrasing just how this is done by means of the "hermeneutic of continuity"? But more, it makes vii the reference point for all discussion as vii indirectly touches all matters of faith (often directly too).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1608" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perescott of Goodriddens, you equivocate on "Wisdom" and claim that you're not. You take, explicitly, only one definition, and misapply that definition to the founders of TAC. <br />That, my "friend", is called a straw man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I didn't mean to leave you all sputtering. I just wanted to convey the Church's definition of sacred theology. I didn't write any of the errors that are in the Charter of Thomas Aquinas College. So you can't really blame me for anything. Thanks and may God bless you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1610" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^that, my "friend", is called douchebaggery</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1611" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and no one is sputtering, more like TLDR</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1612" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could go paragraph at a time and tell you where you're wrong, but I don't think you'd listen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1613" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-24T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T16:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off topic, but appropriate http://www.openculture.com/.../philosophy-referee-hand...<br />Philosophy Referee Hand Signals<br />www.openculture.com<br />The next time you're presiding over an intense philosophical debate, feel free to use these hand signals to referee things. Devised by philosophy prof Landon Schurtz, these hand signals were jokingly meant to be used at APA (American Philosophy Association) conferences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Est quod est.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1615" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T17:07:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Before too much longer, though I don't want to derail anything in the interesting magisterium discussion, I would say this: obviously TAC is not "the fulness of liberal education" or whatever that quote was -- perhaps that's admissions office hyperbole. For one thing, that's not possible in four years. It's true that there is a profound and admirable attempt to have students follow a curriculum with elements from the trivium and quadrivium, and then going on to study natural and metaphysical sciences. <br />Furthermore there's not even a pretense that TAC gives a complete education in all the branches of theology. No one there would even claim that. It's not supposed to do this. It may give you an amazing jumpstart (since you've read some scripture and a bunch of church fathers/doctors/documents), but that's it. <br />Almost any tutor you speak with will tell you that TAC only tries to be "a good beginning". They say (well, Mr. Collins has said), that we should really cover the same material in 8 years that is attempted to be covered in 4, only no one would come. Though really you could cover it for 80, or 800 years, and still not get to the bottom of it all. If you want to specialize in any of the sciences, divine or otherwise, you better immerse yourself in their pursuit for the rest of your life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T18:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think no one at TAC is claiming to teach dogmatic or systematic theology, or even claiming that the way they teach theology is the only way or anything like that. <br />In fact, and to me this is one of the pluses of TAC, they don't really claim to teach anything at all -- they give the students access to these amazing and enduring texts from all time, and basically let them sink or swim, only they remind us that there is truth and Truth that we are all looking for, and we only have an incomplete piece of that since it is infinite. <br />They don't even have professors who profess to teach, but rather are co-disciples or travelers maybe further along the same road, who are asking questions of the students (and of themselves) to goad everyone to keep delving further into greater understanding of everything.<br />And in fact many students are converted this way -- they go looking for further instruction in the official teachings of the Church (through RCIA or whatnot). My classmate was agnostic when she came (culturally Buddhist) and she is now baptized Catholic and in many ways a better Catholic than I am.<br />They most probably are not converted by the humility or charity of its students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1617" class="entry odd" data-likes="12" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T17:17:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">The initial claim (at the beginning of the never-ending thread) was that this was the only school of undergraduates where every single student in the student body was required to read vast sums of Aquinas and Aristotle. That's it. <br />That claim does not mean there is not another department in some undergraduate program that reads more Aquinas or Aristotle (that is, there might be some school that DOES read more), though that seems unlikely. For many people that's not even a desirable goal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1618" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T17:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Sweet, sweet RATIONALITY.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1619" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T17:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine has totally settled the initial question. Really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1620" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T17:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But we still have to settle the magisterium problem. That could take a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1621" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T17:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have one; but you all have fun!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1622" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T17:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Calvinists....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1623" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-24T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:18:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, I step away for a couple of days, and a thousand new comments show up (which I have now finished reading) . . . 400 more till 2000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1624" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-24T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always taken "religious submission of intellect and will" to be a limited kind of promise: it's saying something like "I will not contradict authoritative teaching publicly and will be slow to think the opposite, especially in matters outside my area of expertise." (Or something like that).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-24T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the first part is important because oftentimes the public who hears you contradict authoritative teachings don't distinguish the various degrees of authority with which the Church speaks and, furthermore, are usually not well-educated enough to judge whether you have reasonable grounds for disagreement.<br />The second part is merely acknowledging the shakiness of human reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-24T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(in evidence of which see Descartes et sequaces eius)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1627" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T18:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We agree to agree, except when we don't...<br />Protestants agree to disagree, except when they don't...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1628" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T18:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Strictly speaking, it's close to that: it means that one owes in trust and loyalty full assent of mind and will to propositions taught with regular authority (not merely that one owes it to the Church to be "slow to think the opposite"), *unless* one's informed (and there are clear criteria for "information") mind and conscience cannot but dissent, in which case, dissent must remain private and the public teaching not openly contradicted, though prudent questions in principle can be posed depending on the degree of authority which the proposition was taught, and one's own state in life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1629" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-24T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a better way of saying what I was trying to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1630" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-24T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There usually is a better way to say what you are trying to say Edward Langley (said with the utmost charity and in friendship )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1631" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T19:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, Catherine's settling of the initial question has also been tried before. It doesn't answer Pere-whatever's objections. Frankly, I think the greatest problem with his critique is his misunderstanding of "wisdom" - it's various meanings and places, and his misapplication of it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, you wish I settled it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1633" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T20:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you settled it in principle. practice will prove to be another thing, I'm sure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1634" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Michael says, it's already been settled many times before. But that doesn't keep us from trying to reach an infinite number of comments. (And yes I think we should eventually discuss both 'infinite' and 'number'.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">transfinite.. have you studied your Georg Cantor? Is it aleph-null or greater?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1636" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I went to TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1637" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahahaha.... I forgot, the program with a huge amount of math doesn't study math....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1638" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Far too much for me. Remember, TAC doesn't pretend to teach theology OR math. Just the historical development of mathematics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then what the hell does it pretend to teach? Perescott? You seem to know everything...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">History of mathematics. (Are you suggesting I'm another incarnation of the friendly thread troll?) Well, maybe philosophy of mathematics too. I don't know, maybe it does pretend to teach math. But then I really wouldn't have gone there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh yeah... I forgot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1642" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My cousin is a math person and there was nowhere near enough mathematics for her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But really the only reason they (we) study mathematics at all is because Plato says in the Republic that mathematics is a necessary preparation for the philosopher. Or I think he says something like that. (Edit: this is unfair -- they also study mathematics for its own sake and contemplation of the beautiful and all that too.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, because as Mr. Kenz or someone pointed out, you only get as far as basic high school calculus or something (okay, maybe a smattering of archaic non-Euclidean stuff), but it's not really the whole point of the program. It's only to make us nice little logical thinkers -- for the sake of philosophy, which is the handmaid of theology...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1645" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which we don't study like nice little magisterium-bots, thank heavens. We're allowed to question what it means, including what the magisterium itself means. (Though I guess we probably are magisterium-bots in the end. I don't know.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and as an 18 year old know-nothing what "straight line" means. Self evident to the wise, and all that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1647" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(192, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">“The mathematician does not study pure mathematics because it is useful; he studies it because he delights in it and he delights in it because it is beautiful.”<br />― Jules Henri Poincaré<br />stick that in your transcendental pipe and smoke it, Peterson!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1648" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">with transcendental tobacco</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1649" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-24T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-24T20:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ isn't that called pot?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1650" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe in Cali.... here in the midwest we call it "reefer"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-24T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-24T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where in the midwest are you? We call it "pot" in WI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1652" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hippies!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"magisterium-bot"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1654" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-24T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T21:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was called that recently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1655" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-24T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-24T21:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I asked Tom Sundaram a legalistic question recently, and answered as the self-dubbed LEGALISM BOT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1656" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="John Haggard" data-date="2014-08-24T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Haggard at 2014-08-24T21:04:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just trying to do my part to get this post to two thousand comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1657" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T21:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">is transcendental tobacco "magisterium-pot"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1658" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T21:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">every time someone says "-bot" I just think hedonism bot<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5JxIrn4OVs<br />Hedonism Bot - Let the Games Begin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas Aquinas College states in its Charter that the metaphysics it proposes "is necessary" for the "full development of theology." This is false pretense. The contrary is true. In fact, revelation and assent to divinely revealed truths is what is necessary to the full development of theology. This is what the Church teaches, de Fide. So, again, the college has it completely backwards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1660" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-24T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T21:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">again, you're making it up as you go along, Perewhatever. <br />You're the one calling it metaphysics (and defining metaphysics other than St. Thomas)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The college itself, in its Charter, defines metaphysics as knowledge of God which is reasoned to, then states that this kind of knowledge is "necessary for the full development of theology." This statement is false, and contrary to the Church's infallible dogma on supernatural revelation in the order of knowledge. <br />I am not making this up as I go along. This is the argument that the college puts forward. And it is a false pretense.<br />So what does it matter if someone reads more Aristotle and Thomas than another, if they are in material heresy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1662" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-24T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-24T22:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The claim they're making is about the knowledge reasoned to (the conclusions), and not the way one gets there (one can get there by reasoning or by divine revelation). And IIRC it's Thomism 101 that there is a difference between special and general metaphysics (cf. De ente et essentia ... or perhaps the commentary on Boethius' De Trinitate ... can't recall and too lazy to look it up). The mistake you're accusing them of would be one only an idiot would make.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The claim the college is making is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology; namely, sacred theology, theology which proceeds from revelation. This false claim is a material heresy. The college defines metaphysics specifically as that science which leads to knowledge of God by natural reason. Then the college says that this metaphysics is NECESSARY for the full development of theology. This is false. This is heresy. This runs counter to the Church's infallible teaching on grace. Metaphysics is no way necessary for the development of sacred theology or for a believer to possess wisdom without qualification. On the contrary, as the Church teaches, revelation is necessary for the perfection of reason. <br />"But, as theology itself teaches, there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human reason. This knowledge, traditionally named metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology." (Thomas Aquinas College, Founding and Governing Document; VII. Liberal Education, Its Parts and the Order Among Them; para. 7)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1664" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"development" is being used there in the Newmanian sense, and it's an obvious fact. If no metaphysics, then no Nicaea, and thus no decisive answer to heresy. It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of partim/partim relation, only that theology to fully articulate itself must use metaphysics. Totally uncontroversial and orthodox.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas Aquinas College also employs a hard and heavy interpretation of doctrine. Doctrine is used at Thomas Aquinas College to support this material heresy that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This gives the wrong impression of theology and the Faith. Doctrine properly understood leads to human freedom. The way it is employed at Thomas Aquinas College leads to limitations of being truly Catholic. So, what is the point of reading the most Aristotle and Thomas of you get the Faith wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1666" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:32:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">"heresy" is a big word, especially when deriving that conclusion based on an elementary misreading of a very uncontroversial text</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Material heresy is actually pretty common. What's remarkable here is that the founders of Thomas Aquinas College actually believed that metaphysics is NECESSARY to the full development of sacred theology, and that you don't see this. This is a very basic blunder, and contrary to the Church's de fidei teaching on grace, revelation and the relationship between Faith and reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1668" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-24T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T23:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You keep using English, I don't think it means what you think it means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1669" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine I have answered you precisely, and you simply repeat your assertions without answering my argument or attending my distinctions. This isn't looking good for your case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1670" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The purpose of the required philosophy courses is to assist students in a philosophical understanding of God, his creation, the nature of the human person, and certain philosophical errors which influence contemporary thought and scholarship, with the ultimate aims of providing a philosophical foundation for theological studies and of enabling students to present the Faith more reasonably and effectively."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who said that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1672" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heretics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1673" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">More heresy:<br />"Christendom College acknowledges in its curriculum the essential role played by St. Thomas Aquinas in Catholic theology. Courses in philosophy and theology are taught according to the spirit, method, and principles of the Common Doctor."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here we see a collapse into an inability to respond seriously to a very straightforward flaw revealed about Thomas Aquinas College. It teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. This is what the Charter of the college states clearly. This claim is a material heresy. No one responds to this fact, other than to say it is a wrong interpretation, and that this pat denial is a precise response. This is ridiculous.<br />This is what the Charter states, and this is what the College teaches: metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology. This claim is false, and contrary to what the Church teaches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"86-credit-hour core curriculum, ordered by Thomistic wisdom within a historical matrix"<br />Heresy<br />"Catholic Theology and Thomist Philosophy play a central role"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1676" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am going to repost what I wrote above. Please answer it, or stop talking.<br />"development" is being used there in the Newmanian sense, and it's an obvious fact. If no metaphysics, then no Nicaea, and thus no decisive answer to heresy. It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of partim/partim relation, only that theology to fully articulate itself must use metaphysics. Totally uncontroversial and orthodox"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is not a pat denial- that is an argument based on a distinction, and you have ignored both</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-24T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blue Book?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1679" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-24T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-24T23:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man, I used to feel shitty about going to Franciscan, cause we didn't even try to pretend like we had rigour and weren't very clever or bright, but this thread has me feeling pretty good about it now, all things considered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">More heresy, no doubt:<br />"Finally, he studies philosophy, not just for the sake of a knowledge of reality, but also because philosophy serves to increase his understanding of the Creator of all things. He studies each of these disciplines for its own sake, but also uses them in the service of something higher. The Catholic tradition, then, does not destroy or diminish liberal education, but rather perfects it. The Catholic free man studies all of the disciplines both for their own sake and in the service of Theology, the 'Queen of the Sciences.'"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson: the quotation you cite does not appear to be a material heresy. However, TAC claims, in its Charter (Blue Book), cited above, that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. This is heresy. The Church teaches de fide (infallibly) the opposite. <br />JA Escalante: you are adding heresy to heresy now. Metaphysics is not necessary for the full articulation of sacred theology, revelation or Wisdom, and by claiming that metaphysics was necessary to the Church's infallible teaching from Nicea, you are really showing what you lack. Again, this is false. And you are beginning to sound completely arrogrant here, which is a clear effect of your flawed education. So I will wish you a good night sleep.<br />Again, material heresy is common, and when you claim that metaphysics was necessary for the full articulation of doctrine at Nicea, you really are in the realm of material heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1682" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-24T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-24T23:51:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_1683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is sad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahahahha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh dear</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1686" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's imagine Nicaea without metaphysical discourse. Go for it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1687" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-24T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The idea that theology doesn't presuppose philosophy in some way to some extent is asinine. Grace presupposes nature. First in the natural, then in the supernatural. <br />Revelation speaks through what is natural. It speaks via human beings who have reason and live within nature. The study of God ceases to be study for you - it ceases to be possible. What you suggest is that somehow theology is it's own universe - no need for a handmaid - not for humans, I suppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1688" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-24T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone study St Thomas seriously without studying metaphysics? And doesn't St Thomas still hold pride of place among all theologians? I don't see the problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-24T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-24T23:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIDMhwT6srI<br />"What are the Roots of the Distinction between Theology and Philosophy?"<br />Professor Jean-Luc Marion explored the supposed conflict between philosophy and theology in light of the present situation of philosophy -- that of the end o...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The doctrine of the Trinity was already very much a part of the sacred liturgy in the Eastern, Western and Oriental church's at the time of Nicea. What I think we see at Nicea is sacred tradition and the Holy Spirit through the Magisterium affirming tradition, and also helping to perfect a line of reasonable metaphysics. But to suggest that Nicean doctrine would have been impossible without metaphysics, or that metaphysics was necessary for Nicean doctrine to occur is really ludicrous. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-24T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although I believe Peregrine Scott Wineberg has been calling all of St Thomas metaphysics. Which is just dumb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do you believe that, Jody?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-24T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1694" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-24T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see. Nicaea defined its doctrine using purely Biblical categories, and then, on the side, as a favor to philosophy, perfected a line of metaphysics. Just on the side, you know. Nothing to do with the definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-24T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That I have been calling all of St. Thomas metaphysics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1696" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-24T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have been referring to all that is studied in the theology tutorial as metaphysics. You won't allow the study of the Summa to be called theology. Am I missing something in the last 1600 messages?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1697" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh look, the traditional Catholic Encyclopedia is heretical!<br />"The nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to theology. Theology, it need hardly be said, derives its conclusions from premises which are revealed, and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or metaphysics. At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics. Sometimes, indeed, as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of faith, theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths discussed. Nevertheless, if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely upon, it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific manner. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The claim that TAC makes is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. No one suggested that understanding metaphysics is not good when you study Thomas, Jody. But that is not the false claim the college is making. I thought you students understood distinctions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not just good but necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1701" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam Rocha - so while you FUers were speaking in tongues and skipping class in favor of cooing electric koolaid Jesus rawk, Peregrine and friends were making sure they swore that Lincoln was an evil man on a bible wrapped in the confederate flag so they would be allowed to receive communion.<br />Meanwhile, at Thomas Aquinas College...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophy provides the language for theology. It isn't more important; it is required to talk about it most clearly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, the nature of metaphysics determining its nature from sacred theology means that grace perfects nature. The Charter of the college is not sayinbg this. It is saying the opposite. <br />You guys seem to be in apoplexy. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1705" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:03:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics.":</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ money quote</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1707" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that thing had an imprimatur and nihil obstat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, philosophy provided language for Thomas. The sacred theology of the Church is broader than this. Sorry they don't teach you this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So we are back to studying St Thomas just isn't enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are encyclicals that address that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depending on is not the same thing necessistating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Jody, it's more about what the Church teaches as sacred theology, not Thomas' theology. Thomas erred. The Church does not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics is not necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. Revelation is. This quote reveals the TAC skew, its material heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A plant may depend on water. But water does not give a plant its being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, if you believe that Nicea may have depended on a western metaphysics, that is fine. But if you believe that metaphysics is necessary for what the Church teaches at Nicea, and in its Councils and in Her infallible teachings, and in its theology, and in the sacred theology of the Church, then you are a material heretic. This is a false doctrine of Thomas Aquinas College. And it is simply amazing the founders got this wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1718" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Am I the only person on this thread who is starting to feel a bit awkward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you believe in the false doctrine that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of theology, you should feel awkward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1720" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, I stopped trying to follow what you seem to think passes for an argument at triple digits. Now I just wonder if you are a savant or just nuts, which might also be mutually inclusive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1721" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam Rocha: I'm beyond awkward. A jaded face in Zuckerberg's Book of life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1722" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam: But we're so close to 2000 comments!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1723" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then there's THAT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1724" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nevermind, what was I thinking. Carry on, carry on, carry the fuck on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1725" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-08-25T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(197, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw this thread had exploded, speculated how it got that way, and it would seem I was right. LOL.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1726" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahaha...this thread just is, man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1727" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam, Dude, you seem like a really malformed character. I'll pray for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1728" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks. Malformed doesn't even begin to tell the story. But toss some prayers for me when you're not slaying dragons on the interwebz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1729" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just here for the LOL's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1730" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Penn" data-date="2014-08-25T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Penn at 2014-08-25T00:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, the howling troll. Why don't you attend to that last quote JA just listed; you can't possibly believe your earlier comment did so with any coherence can you? Nicean formulations without metaphysics?!! Were the unicorns with you when you came to that conclusion?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Recap: material heresy revealed in TAC Charter which states that philosophy is necessary for the completion of sacred theology; in other words, if you want to study sacred theology, you better go to TAC. TAC apologists grow apoplectic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1732" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam you're my fav</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aw, shucks...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ryan, I am not a howling troll. Your rhetorical question "Nicean formulations without metaphysics?!!" simply begs the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1735" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So can we safely assume we all need real hobbies? I recommend rock climbing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, are any of you familiar with any of the Church's dogmas on sacred theology and revelation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1737" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ummmm at least one accredited institution says I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1738" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really take exception to you (Scott Peregrine) accusing the founders of anything when they are not here to defend themselves.<br />Did you know it is a sin to assume (and I would guess another sin to publicly accuse) another of a mortal sin? <br />Am I the only one who can imagine Mr Berquist taking Scott's argument apart syllable by syllable? Dr McArthur would just thump and let him have it all in one blast (if he bothered to address such ridiculous arguments)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For hobbies, I think going to a Catholic college that actually teaches what the Church teaches is a great place to start.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So there's that. But really Peregrine can't we just fight about molanism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's far less ridiculous</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, I love your loyalty to the founders. If you were only half as loyal to the Church are Her teachings as you were to a group of extremist academics...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again -- the whole of the church's hierarchy has not only turned a blind eye to the 'heresy factory' that is know as TAC but it actually endorses and supports it. We could list the cardinals and bishops. My own among them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1744" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that's not a hobby. Go talk to Dr Long and Waldstein if you want to fight about my theology credentials</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Molanism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1746" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">IN A WORLD of material heresy...ONE MAN...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1747" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, Peregrine, what giant piece of work are you procrastinating on? I got this grant to write that I'd rather gargle broken glass than do and this is doing the trick. I can't begin to imagine what you're staying away from? Mother-in-law in town?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">one man... and about 42 dogmas of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1749" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Molinism. Thanks siri</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian kelly writes those endorsements, Jody, not your bishop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1751" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">will face the hordes of Thomas Aquinas College grads...ALONE...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um. I can talk to my bishop directly. He isn't talking through anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me, and the elephant in the room.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1754" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's just ridiculous Scott PB</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1755" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Matthew what are you avoiding tonight?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your bishop is not what the Church teaches. Ask him is metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1757" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife is reading over the job app I just wrote in political theory and I'm writing notes on a documentary proposal re LA political corruption</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1758" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:24:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stay on topic, Marina. The topic is I was just going to do something but I can't recall and that butter in the freezer needs to thaw but I think I'll watch another Ice Bucket fail video...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1759" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No -- according to you Scott PB, no one bishop, no cardinal -- but you alone are the voice of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1760" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm reading Much Ado About Nothing. I like this part:<br />"I wonder that you will still be talking, Signor Benedick.<br />Nobody marks you."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1761" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't worry, I doubt I will get the job.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1762" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like a true academic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, you should study the Faith a bit more. You would see the falacy behind the statement that rational science is necessary for sacred theology. Sacred theology is reasonable, but it is necessary for an accurate metaphysics, not the other way around. This is what the Church teaches infallibly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, everyone I have talked to, who has had any contact with TAC alum, thinks you guys are nuts... a breeding ground of all sorts of heresies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1765" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did I miss a meeting regarding classical antiquity and patristics? Damn. I *always* miss that meeting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1766" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"><raises hand> Not this guy. Good chaps at TAC, if a bit square and not much fun at the pub (even thought they think they're a hoot, they're usually not).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1767" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok Pere, can I call you Pere? We're all mad here. Haven't you heard?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1768" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This summer, watch a troll transform: INTO SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER BEFORE.<br />Peregrine Bonaventure: THREAD DRAGON</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1769" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam you have never seen me in a pub. Don't talk nonsense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1770" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm damn witty thank you very much.<br />See what I did there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam Rocha come to Berkeley and I will vindicate the TAC pub spirit for you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1772" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T00:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So close to 2000, so close.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Thomas Aquinas College, in regards to Faith and Reason, teaches the exact opposite of what the Church teaches, and your response is there's been a misunderstanding... and that I'm a troll. OK, that's insane, but best regards to you all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I should play a show down there this year, I'll letcha know. But I'll bring a book and a pillow, just in case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1775" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure. File a complaint with Cardinal Burke. He spoke there so I'm sure he has the address.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1776" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam Rocha, your words ring true, but they reveal you haven't been drinking with the right grads. First off, distrust people who graduated in four years...<br />You need to play LA. We can make this happen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1777" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think they ever had a show there Sam. You could play it at Steckle though. That could work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1778" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.<br />Stahp.<br />(for what follows, please interpret ALL CAPS as italics. Seriously, Facebook, why can't we write in italics in comments?!)<br />Isn't SOME KIND of metaphysics necessary for Sacred Theology, at least in the sense that WE NEED SOME VOCABULARY in order to talk about non-physical things? I'm not saying that Ye Perfect Metaphysics will be in place prior to any work in Sacred Theology, and in fact Mr. Bonaventure seems quite right that Sacred Theology would perfect metaphysics. But... we still need some WORDS to use to even begin the science, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1779" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, no, the true 4-year TACers will bring the book and the pillow. They might even share.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Word. Seriously, toss my contact and I'll send them to my people (which is two people).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I know enough of my Faith to be hired to work at the diocesan and parish level. But my bishop sounds like he falls under Peregrine's definition of 'heretic'.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1782" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew I was on to something, but I see I made a category mistake. I still need empirical, no, *phenomenological* evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Emily -- exactly. We need a language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1784" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well I really am a heretic from the RC point of view but I know what the Catholic Church teaches and I know what the TAC Charter says and there is no problem there whatever, as I have demonstrated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1785" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude Jody no worries. It's not damnable if you didn't receive a coherent explanation of why. Worst case is material, tops.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll leave you with one parting thought. Go to the "Blue Book" and in part VII see where it states that metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology. Then compare this false statement with the Church's dogma on faith, revelation and the sacred science. This, by definition, is a heresy. Also note the vulgar comments and the sophistry coming from so many TAC alum. Then decide for yourself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're at 1,891 -- I'm sure we can make 2000 before bed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm only sophistical when no one is listening.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1789" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">What you don't understand, Peregrine, is the TAC is actually an acronym for Toots Apes and Cheese, and its function it to slowly brew minds into leather flower pots, with the little holes in the bottom so excess water can drain out. Now, why, sir, are you quoting the lost booklets of Wittgenstein? I may switch to your side if that's intentional. GEM Anscombe anyone? A tart, perhaps?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Sam Rocha - def drink with JA Escalante</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1791" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will someone please do a statistical analysis of the times that Peregine has said good bye in this thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, you have not demonstrated anything. TAC teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This contradicts the Church. You have falsely claimed that metaphysics was necessary for the full development of doctrine at Nicea. This is totally false and heretical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked Anscombe. She has thoughts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I was saying ^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1795" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like people with thoughts. Darn that liberal education</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The TAC Charter also claims that the curriculum places an emphasis on the doctrines of the Church instead of the history of the Church. Does anyone else see a problem here... maybe stretching things a bit?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will miss this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1798" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know I might be mad. Ron MacArthur suggested my propensity for the word "like" indicated as much. Does that mean Pere and a TAC founder agree on something? *gasp* say it ain't so Sam .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1799" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophy of Education at UBC?? Good Lord!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to elect Jody's bishop the next Pope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll miss you, metaphysically first, then theologically -- but never biblically -- Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey his syllabus sounds interesting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1803" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My syllabus of ERRORS, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1804" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a spin off page dedicated to this thread (in case you missed it): https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever?fref=ts<br />The Neverending Thread<br />This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.<br />Community: 57 like this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well Sam those who can do. But as you are teaching education isn't that ironic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1806" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, by the way, has just launched a new offensive at me, based on my subfield and place of employment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is metaphysics necessary to the fulfillment of the philosophy of education at UBC, or does it not even depend on it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You went to UBC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you have both. And that is something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I teach at UBC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1811" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does UBC mean University Before Metaphysics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1812" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah. I'm outside of Vancouver. So we share a "heretic" bishop</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1813" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No that's an M</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, my good man, you just a decent joke!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, you ought to come to my show at Regent College this week, seriously...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1816" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-25T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Thomas Aquinas College. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. My eyes have been opened Scotty Boy! Thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1817" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vancouver is tragically beautiful. There are no theologians in Vancouver.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">C'mon y'all, keep it going. I'm not going to bed until we hit 2,000!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So does Peregrine know you or was he stalking you Sam?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one said you are scum and villainy. Just that your founders were reactionaries, who perpetrate material heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1821" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matt Badley" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matt Badley at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just sticking my head in here to make sure things aren't totally crazy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1822" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, I hope you never stalk anyone. That would really be scary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1823" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stalking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again with the recognition of sarcasm! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1825" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah come on. You gave us more credit than that. We have become a heretic factory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is about time Matt showed up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1827" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A breeding ground of heresy."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just moved here, but I am already feeling VERY heretical, must be the water.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1829" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-25T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">We should probably look at what we mean by "necessary." It seems to me, Peregrine, that JA Escalante has already given argument for the necessity of metaphysics in theology. Is water "necessary" for a fish? I think you're taking one sense of necessity and thinking it means something we're not saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1830" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Floridated water, no doubt. It saps your vital essence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang, Vancouver is the anchor for the Catholic Church in Canada. We are orthodox. Not learned. But orthodox.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1832" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To your question, Peregrine: You may want to read my book. It's short and has pictures. http://samueldrocha.wix.com/primer<br />A Primer for Philosophy and Education, by Samuel D. Rocha<br />samueldrocha.wix.com<br />A Primer for Philosophy and Education is a site promoting an illustrated book written by Sam Rocha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1833" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No worries Sam, I do not think God holds UBC to the same standards as TAC. After all, they read more Aristotle than anyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1834" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love how intrepid newcomers actually pop in and say something intelligent. Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whew! Thanks man! I was pretty worried about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1836" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Vancouver is orthodox, then you must be a relativist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1837" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-25T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Well the alum are proficient breeders, good to know they're squeezing heresies in the with all the babies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1838" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Relativism works pretty well in relationships.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1839" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh good, it even has ullustrations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or read the book on education by the "heretic" (according to Peregrine Scott) Archbishop J Michael Miller: http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Sees-Teaching.../dp/1933184205<br />The Holy See's Teaching on Catholic Schools<br />www.amazon.com<br />This book clearly explains what our Catholic schools should be -- and offers you practical advice on how to judge whether they are! At a conference at Catholic University in the Fall of 2005, Archbishop J. Michael Miller, the man responsible for Catholic education around the world, distilled for ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just make sure you teach your children the faith, before you turn them back over to TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, for the record, I never called your bishop a heretic. That's not even funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Relativism works well in relationships, Christ works even better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1845" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My children are, presently, red-blooded pagans, reading Homer, Norse myths, and Tolkien. Even Lewis is too soggy a Christian cracker for their taste.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tell that to *your* relatives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam, I will pray for your children. You must teach them Faith. Teach them about Christ, as a person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, you said he didn't support the College (Brian Kelly said he did?). You said if he did he is a heretic. But he does, he knows about the College. He is a lover and student of St Thomas. And given his jobs prior to this one, I think he knows a thing or 2 about post secondary education in the Catholic tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam -- do you homeschool?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sort of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's VERY complicated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, that's not what I said. I said if he endorsed the college, that still does not take away from the fact that the college is wrong and in material heresy about Faith and Reason. This does not mean he is a heretic, and I never said he was, you silly girl.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1854" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, the short answer is, yes and no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1855" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, yes and no. You must have gone to TAC Sam.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1856" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It sounds better than subjecting your kids to the crap in most schools (I'm looking at you, YA Literature).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1857" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rarely affirm, seldom deny, always distinguish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is only one bishop who has endorsed and supported the college. There are many. How can they be so wrong as to support a school based on heresy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll pray for your computer. I hope it keeps running. We need you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, but Jody, you said I said he was a heretic, when you knew I did not. What does that tell you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who do you pray to Sam?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1862" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anthony Hopkins gave a sweet talk at TAC. That has to count for something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that this has gone on too darn long</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1864" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To get my 6th-12th grade teaching license, I had to take a CLASS in YA Lit. Yes, there was a GRADUATE-LEVEL CLASS devoted to this.<br />Just,... gah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, Sam, have you done the Grouse grind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1866" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam you pray to Anthony Hopkins?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1867" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poor Emily. Did you have to read Twilight?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is he even dead?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anthony Hopkins did not. Did he?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's totes on the webs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1872" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No! Thankfully, even they saw that that shouldn't be on the list!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1873" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">25 and counting. Does the ball drop?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Should auld acquaintance be forgot,<br />and never brought to mind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1875" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It depends what you mean the term 'pray.' But I won't be obtuse, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, I pray to God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the saints, Mary, my dead relatives, Cervantes and Beatrice, trees, Francis and so on...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1876" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2IW08L1gLY<br />Sir Anthony Hopkins Talks to the Students of Thomas Aquinas College<br />On Thursday, March 29, students at Thomas Aquinas College were treated to an hour-long question-and-answer session with a visitor who is widely considered am...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1877" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't know they had Catholics at UBC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1878" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Theology: The study of things taught definitively by the Magisterium.<br />The Magisterium: Peregrine Bonaventure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what the Grouse Grind is. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It had better drop. It's well past 12 midnight here in Michigan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't you know we're EVERYWHERE!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1882" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No they don't. They only have heretics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh oh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1884" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Index Institutorum Prohibitorum:<br />1. TAC<br />2. Thomas Aquinas College <br />3. TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1885" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward -- you finally got it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1886" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We could always add UBC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1887" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blue Book (add that to the Index)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, if Anthony Hopkins talked to the students at TAC, that must mean they're all clear on the central issue of metaphysics and sacred theology then. What did he talk about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also nominate Steubenville, since I'm living here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being a movie star</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1891" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, are we going to have Y2K problems when we hit 2,000??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shakespeare.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He got bored and took a tour</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OH SHIT!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blue book says...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1896" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And method acting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1897" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're at 2000 -- you all have to go to bed now!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1898" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or pray</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lovely talk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1900" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">WE DID IT, PEEPS!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1901" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'M GOING FOR Y3K!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1902" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, where are all these balloons and confetti coming from????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1903" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">SO proud.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1904" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man of the match goes to the indefatigable Peregrine Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1905" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M<br />Kool & The Gang - Celebration<br />Music video by Kool & The Gang performing Celebration. (C) 1980 The Island Def Jam Music Group</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blue Book says metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. Infallible dogma says revelation neccessary for the fulfillment of metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1907" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So anyways</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1908" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I clearly don't know a thing about sacred theo (won't my profs be sad) but I do love little kittens...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1909" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:04:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait! You didn't get the balloons and confetti? Update your app.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1910" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Emily knows how to party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Necessary can be said in may ways. Scott doesn't get that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When people say the internet is a waste of time, this is proof of why they are right and why I don't care.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1913" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah. I'm going to bed… 2000 was my goal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think you really need to know anything about sacred theo to go to TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1915" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going to pour myself a glass of Maker's right after I wash my hands in a Pilate-like manner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1916" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why thank you, Sam. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_1917" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant at Ave</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1918" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And way to miss the cultural reference point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do get that Jody. It's just that it can't be said that way in the case of metaphysics and revelation/sacred theology. That's heresy. The Church made that clear in the 1700s. You don't know what you talk about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what do you *really* about sacred theo? I want some really spicy mystical secret dirt now that we're in the third millennium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1921" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_1922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gnosis. Like Gnocchi only not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1923" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacred theo is really a poetry Sam. A true myth. There, how's that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1924" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fax me one Matthew</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1925" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love Gnocchi.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey man, I'm totally down with what you said right there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John of the Cross ftw!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1928" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gnostic Gnocchi</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1929" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacred theo is a poetry that melts metaphysics and gets it right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See? I don't disagree with this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1931" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">We could start a great restaurant. Thus solving the liberal arts employment issue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think melting is a weird word</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1933" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysical Melting Mushrooms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1934" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's all get down!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1935" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's get metaphysical?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1936" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No shrooms. That might send an inadvertent message</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1937" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-25T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ain't no party like a metaphysical party...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1938" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you change physical to metaphysical pop music gets awesome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1939" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, I made some Augustinian soul music...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1940" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of which buy Sam 's music</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Marina is a weird name. It sounds like a place where you park your boat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1942" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bingo: http://samueldrocha.wix.com/late-to-love<br />late-to-love<br />samueldrocha.wix.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1943" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a mermaid who died</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1944" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we need the material heretics in Europe to wake up and get us all back on track with their definitive statements. It is 6 or 7 by now after all. All this celebration is disordering my soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, that's sad. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1946" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eliot wrote me a poem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1947" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like you just changed clothes, Peregrine. Nice new outfit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't Marina also a saint in the Melchite Greek-Catholic Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1950" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland, do metaphysics. It's necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1951" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">She's a Vietnamese martyr too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1952" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But my parents were Protestants so I think they just liked it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks Sam, it's my UBC attire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't she the first mermaid every canonized?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right on. Pretty casual here I'm noticing. (We just moved here over a month ago.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1956" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Frome whence? (I like to try to use words like whence whenever I can.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is UBC really 100 miles wide?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1958" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you see West Van from your window?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1959" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I grew up in West Van, and I've never told anyone that before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I live in West Point Grey, as West Van as it gets, besides UBC proper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I'm siting in West Van.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Back to this metaphysics thing. Does anyone think that necessary means something other than necessary?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam, are you related to the Rochas from Weslaco, TX?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh shit. Maybe. My dad was born in Pharr.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we talking necessity and sufficiency?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam, in your capacity as a resident of West Point Grey, do you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does it depend?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1968" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are many senses of the word necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not necessarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1970" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want a serious answer, you'll have to explain to me exactly what you mean by all those terms. Particularly 'metaphysics,' and the expressions "full development" and "sacred theology."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what sense is metaphysics necessary for the full development of sacred theology, when the Church teaches that only revelation is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I more or less think I get what you mean by 'necessity.'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics means the rational study of God. Full development means for it to become a complete science. Sacred theology means the science of revealed truths, revealed by God as true, which the Church teaches under its authority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1974" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you don't mind, what, exactly, do you mean by 'science'?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the metaphysics in God as knower?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1976" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Church actually doesn't teach that only revelation is necessary; that's the Protestant position. The Church teaches that the magisterium is also necessary for the full development of theology. And continuing to dodge the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't helping you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1977" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't care what it *is*, I just want to understand what Peregrine means when he uses those terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The way we know something with certainty. Either by reason, or by Faith. Two different ways of knowing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, shut up, JA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1980" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't metaphysics just mean study of first principles? You only sort of unintentionally bump into God in the end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1981" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh such charity!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he was joking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam, science means how we understand something with certainty. Metaphysics proceeds with reason. Sacred theology proceeds with revelation and assent by faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Do you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology?" <br />Well, I don't really know, to tell you the truth. I have a hard time understanding how your puzzle pieces fit together. But, then again, I'm a Franciscan grad, so I'm not as bright as the TAC'ers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I was joking. Now shut up. (Joking.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what Peregrine means is, theology is like an organism which has all the elements and factors of its own unfolding into final form within itself. Thus, nothing outside it is necessary. This is why he compares it to a poem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1987" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I might just go strum a shitty P&W tune on my cheap guitar now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine- I'm wondering more about on the lines of if faith is imperfect somewhere the knowledge of the thing itself exists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But theology is not fact like an organism, nor a poem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1990" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It strikes me, Peregrine, that you use the term 'theology' to describe what many tend to use the term 'metaphysics' for. Perhaps, we have a little language game going on?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, it seems to me it is not necessary, because the Church says it is not. But I can see why TAC says it is, because it wants to play up the rational side of the Faith, because of the ideology of its founders. The trouble is, the Faith and sacred theology is in no way dependent on metaphysics, but the other way around. The Church has several doctrines on this. No big deal, it just explain why TAC grads believe they are so smart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA go on?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1993" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't like similes, either. They are not very helpful in this sort of talk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1994" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catholic Encyc says theology as a science "depends" upon metaphysics. No one called that heretical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1995" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love you like a love song</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Natural theology is metaphysics, Sam. We are speaking of natural theology vs sacred theology. Natural theology is not necessary in any sense of the word for the development and fulfillment of sacred theology, unles you are a TAC ideologue teaching heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But we can know Natural Theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, the Catholic Encyc does not say that. Your eye is biased.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_1999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine will you ever address the propositions in the CE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2000" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHAHAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2001" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean someone can. I think I still take God's existence on faith. But I think Mr Berquist knew it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I quoted it, Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aha! So metaphysics = nat theology, but you distinguish that from sacred theology. Okay, but why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps you could link the section here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2005" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i did above</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2006" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">twice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2007" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">DO IT AGAIN!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, missed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2009" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine keeps dodging it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Marina, we know natural theology by reason for the most part, but much of it is revealed in sacred theology. This proves that the sacred completes and fulfills the natural. This is what the Church teaches. TAC is wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I thought it was just for fools like me who were too thick to get it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, I am not dodging it. You are misusing the Catholic Encyclopedia to try to confute dogma, and you are not succeeding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, would you say that reading the Western Canon in chronological order is heresy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2014" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like God knows we can't all be super brilliant because he doesn't give us all the same things. So he let's us all have a fighting chance. You know dodging the whole Predest language</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2015" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine:<br />"The nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to theology. Theology, it need hardly be said, derives its conclusions from premises which are revealed, and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or metaphysics. At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics. Sometimes, indeed, as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of faith, theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths discussed. Nevertheless, if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely upon, it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific manner. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2016" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Kathleen Wilson" data-date="2014-08-25T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kathleen Wilson at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does this thread have its own drinking game yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But as far as I know metaphysics technically does not have God as its proper object.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So metaphysics = nat theology, but you distinguish that from sacred theology. Okay, but why?<br />Because sacred theology deals also with things we can only know by faith and revelation; plus it reveals some things we can know by reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cool. Sort of like psychoanalysis, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2020" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">AGAIN:<br />"At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, the proper object of metaphysics is God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks! I too saw that but I meant could you put a link there, so that people could see for themselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, I'm not talking to you anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2024" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You keep saying that though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10226a.htm<br />CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Metaphysics<br />www.newadvent.org<br />That portion of philosophy which treats of the most general and fundamental principles underlying all reality and all knowledge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">vide: relation to theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It can depend, without necessity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not like psychonalysis at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2029" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-25T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T01:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does a fish depend on water to survive? Can we say water is necessary for its survival?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2030" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And here I was hoping we could play tell your dream. Although not if it has a crab please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can say it is necessary for its survival, but not for its being. That's the point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does metaphysics imply that reason is how we know, cause that's not really Plato's notion of the matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More than imply.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2035" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"...Consequently, it must be the office of one and the same science to consider separate substances and being- in-general (ens commune) which is the genus of which the separate substances mentioned above are the common and universal causes.... For the subject of a science is the genus whose causes and properties we seek, and not the causes themselves of the particular genus studied, because the knowledge of the causes of some genus is the goal to which the investigation of the science attains."—Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on the Metaphysics of Aristotle, prooemium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam- this is true. But Plato isn't a saint</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2037" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*drops mic*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2038" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the proper object of metaphysics just 'being as being'? Or something like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacred theology, on the other hand, is God speaking to man, telling man certain mysteries about the faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, yes. That is God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2041" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You should read Plato, dude. In Attic Greek. That is sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-25T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good! You've admitted to several meanings of "necessary"! Progress!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well also God-Man talking to man telling us about God and man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be like sacred theology, if Socrates were God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marina, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2046" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you trying to imply that Socrates was not God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2047" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being as being is not God. If it were God, then Aristotle would not admit to there being 47 separate substances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now the question is, is metaphysics necessary for God talking to man. No, according to the Church. Yes, according to this little college in California.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2049" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam stop being a heretic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2050" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't help myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Catherine, yes. That is God" But that's not what you start with in metaphysics. You begin by studying different aspects (properties, whatever) of being and you only eventually reach God at the very end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we all agree that St. marina was a mermaid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2053" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Moreover, philosophy is indispensable for theological formation. “Theology in fact has always needed and still needs philosophy’s contribution.”[19] By helping to deepen the revealed Word of God, with its character of transcendent and universal truth, philosophy avoids stopping at the level of religious experience. It has rightly been observed that “the crisis of postconciliar theology is, in large part, the crisis of philosophical foundations […]. When philosophical foundations are not clarified, theology loses its footing."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">catherine, yes, but you reason your way there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics is absolutely philosophy, and not really theology, except in a sneaky way. Or am I being a heretic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm...<br />Library : Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy<br />www.catholicculture.org<br />Library Document Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy On March 22, 2011, in the Holy See Press Office a press conference was held to present the newly-published Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosophy. Participating in the event were Cardinal Zenon Grochol…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you again JA for the scintilating demonstration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"is metaphysics necessary for God talking to man." Of course not!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No metaphysics is also called natural theology. Because it studies God as being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2060" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha Peregrine keep avoiding the plain sense of words, and we'll all be persuaded of your profundity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well God is being I mean sure. But that missed the point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2062" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"needed"...sounds like necessity, doesn't it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2063" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, I don't think heretics ask if they are being heretical, so I think that means you are not a heretic. Do you float?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You may reach God in metaphysics, but I still hold (like a parrot) that God is not the proper object, in that you don't set out to prove God's existence or anything, or you're not studying God as God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2065" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well at least someone isn't. #hopeyet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2066" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 95%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pretty sure that logging over a thousand FB comments is a heresy of some kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, catherine, you study God as God when God tells you something more than what you can know about him by reason. But these heretics are saying that what you know of Him by reason is necessary to the fulfillment of what God tells you about Him. Which is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2068" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So of all you fine folk I do not have a spouse and/or kids. Whats everyone else's excuse?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, anything you know, you know with your reason, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2070" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I already said it: I'm procrastinating, and the wife and kids are sleeping.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2071" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I was in a bar one night talking about metaphysics and that's how I met my wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So there is some good in it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2073" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is she a heretic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, catherine, some things you can only know by faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2075" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please tell me you used a metaphysics pick up line</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">does she float?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2077" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I used metaphysics as I pick up line. We have since brought six rational animals into existence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't get the heretics floating reference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2079" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well good. The world must be peopled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2080" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, Peregrine, I think you'll like my book. I think we agree on the polarity and necessity, but perhaps don't quite see eye-toeye onhow TAC is reversing it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe it's from a movie that was directed and filmed in England by a group of comedians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I float.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2083" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What’s a nice girl like you doing in a possible world like this?”"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2084" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"some things you can only know by faith" right, but I just mean that if you didn't have any reason at all, you wouldn't know anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it was more like, "how would you like to exist together at my place."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say we be dreaming. What then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's correct; reason is in man; but when we know by reason, this is using the word differently. When we know in faith, it is reasonable, because of reason in man, used in the primary sense. But this is not what TAC is saying. TAC is saying that unless you reason to God first, then you cannot really have the fullness of knowing God by faith. This is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So in that sense, reason is necessary, unless you want to hold that irrational animals have faith</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2090" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine- I sat in class with the founders multiple times. And as far as I know all of them mentioned the old lady who had faith as the one who knew more than the scholar without.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In that sense, reason is necessary, but that is not the sense that TAC uses the word. For that would just be saying that man is rational.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2092" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, this is good, because we are coming to where the terminology or whatever you want to call it is getting in the way. I say it's the fault of TAC's advertising (since it throws around the term 'necessary' where it might be misunderstood). TAC is certainly not saying that you cannot know God by faith fully unless you reason to him first. In no way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I think it is that too. Same with some other colleges.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here it is the word necessary that is the problem. Or metaphyisics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We should be Catholics first, alumnists second.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I'm saying that it comes from a misunderstanding of TAC's advertising material.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2097" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:57:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC nowhere says that theology is a partim/partim relation of revelation and metaphysics. It does say that metaphysics is necessary for its full development, in the sense of doctrinal articulation. So does the Catholic Encyc, and the Decree quoted above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2098" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you JA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">zzzZZZzzz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh i said it before, many times in the thread; but PB keeps dodging</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, the TAC founders were reacting to those whom they felt were not emphasising the rational aspects of the faith enough. So it seems clear the overplayed their hand, when they state that metaphysics is necessary to sacred theology. If you take metaphysics completely away, you still have sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anyone is interested, I had a clear insight in to the Troll's error about theology up above, like a 1000 comments ago. This makes sense of all of his problems:<br />The troll falsely asserted that metaphysics treats of God as a subject. This mad clear to me a great number of his problems. Because he holds this definition he needs to find a way to distinguish between metaphysics and theology. This is why he makes such a big deal about "assent to the fulness of faith." Of course we agree with him that Sacred theology requires the assent of faith, but we don't need to make such a strong distinction there. We follow Aquinas and distinguish according to formal objects. Sacred Theology alone treats of God directly. This is why the whole Summa Theologiae is Theology. Even the preambles; even the stuff that can be known by reason! Why? Because it is proceeding according to a higher light, and starting with God as its formal object.<br />Metaphysics is necessary to have the fulness of Sacred Doctrine because grace perfects nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, TAC never says that metaphysics is necessary in the sense of doctrinal articulation. And the Church never says this either. You are just making it up because you cannot accept the facts. The Church says that sacred theology, Faith and revelation can exist without metaphysics, and that the former are necessary to perfect and fulfill reason. TAC has it completely wrong, and you are unable to accept this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you explain what you think metaphysics is Daniel? I think this is where the misunderstanding lies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2105" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T02:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2106" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Very, very simply.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I am not a troll. Just look at your statement: "Metaphysics is necessary to have the fulness of Sacred Doctrine because grace perfects nature." That makes no sense. If grace perfects nature, then revelation is necessary for metaphysics. This is what the Catholic Church teaches. TAC teaches the opposite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2108" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T02:03:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine I'm a Calvinist, I have nothing invested in this at all, except the cause of truth in reading. And you're an absymal reader of texts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2109" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-25T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T02:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">At this rate, Peregrine, I don't think you are a troll. A troll is you. You have set the bar to another level and for that I commend you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2110" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics is the science of being qua being. It cannot consider God directly. <br />As Thomas says:<br />Sic ergo theologia sive scientia divina est duplex. Una, in qua considerantur res divinae non tamquam subiectum scientiae, sed tamquam principia subiecti, et talis est theologia, quam philosophi prosequuntur, quae alio nomine metaphysica dicitur. Alia vero, quae ipsas res divinas considerat propter se ipsas ut subiectum scientiae et haec est theologia, quae in sacra Scriptura traditur.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, you did admit you were heretical in relation to the RC Church. And I knew to expect plenty of absurd objections when I posted doctrinal errors in TAC's Charter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, that is true, but by analogy. It is wisdom in a qualified sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2113" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please let's talk about analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And metaphysics is a science that proceeds by reason, not by faith, and it is commonly refered to as natural theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2115" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Catherine, metaphysics only treats of the divine as principles of the subject.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It treats of God as the first cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it treats of God in this way, as a science that proceeds by reason, not by belief.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But sacred theology treats of God by Faith, by belief, as God revealing mysteries about Himself, which is the data of the science of sacred theology, which proceeds reasonably but by faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now TAC asserts that metaphysics is necessary to fulfill the sacred. This is false. The Church confutes that in Her dogmas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what way tho</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is the question my friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what way what tho?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2123" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is what we need to distinguish metaphysics formally from Sacred Doctrine. Because Sacred Doctrine ttreats of the Divine directly. This is why we start theology, formally, with a consideration of God himself. In The Summa Thomas takes up some questions that can be known by metaphysics, but they can only be known with great difficulty and not much clarity, but Sacred Doctrine allows us to consider being not simply in the mode of learning but in the proper mode of being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what way is it necessary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2125" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. start with GOd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In no way is it necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude that's not what i meant. In what sense do you mean necessary. Seriously just answer the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In NO WAY is it necessary. This is what the Church teaches.<br />It is absolutely necessary, is what the college claims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2130" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Necessary, meaning that without it, it would not be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Therefore, metaphysics is necessary to have the fullness of Sacred Doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2132" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think they meant that sense of necessary. There are many senses of the word. Words have nuances. It is what makes them wonderful things. Because sometimes we don't think like Kantians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As in, sacred theology is necessary to metaphysics, because without it, it would not be in any way useful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's backwards Daniel. Why do you not see that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2135" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No that isn't the only sense of necessity. Which has been said maybe a thousand times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics is not necessary to sacred theology. Sacred theology is necessary to metaphysics. Faith is necessary for reason. God is necessary for being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2137" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will you puh-lease answer the question. I'm about to go full blown teen angst here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marina, I know, there are many ways you can mean "necessary," but this is the particular sense that the College uses it. And this is the sense that the Church uses it when it says that the sacred is necessary for the natural, not the other way around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the question? How does the Church use necessary? How does TAC use necessary?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2140" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(203, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith is imperfect. It is not what is desired. Thus, it passes away. Knowledge is perfect and perfected. We rely on Faith because we do not see. It is knowledge, however, that we seek. This is why you were right Catherine when you said we know all things with reason, i.e. by the rational faculty. We don't come to know all things by reason, but we hold things held by faith as though they were held by reason because we have greater certainty in them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2141" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. How do you know that this is the sense meant, if there are many senses? It seems this requires us to go back to the words and tease out the meaning therein present, not the meaning any of us wants to impose. The words can speak for themselves. If they use the word necessity and there is a charitable interpretation, perhaps we should consider the possibility that the founders, whom are all good men as far as any can tell, noting that God looks at the heart, meant it in that sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2142" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T02:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, what the heck are you saying? The Church is infallible in matters of faith and morals. Now I see your error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T02:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goodnight, Irene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2144" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is why I used the axiom, grace perfects nature. Nature, in this case, knowledge of metaphysics, is perfected by Grace, in this case the light of faith, so that we can attain to the science of Sacred Doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2145" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Daniel is saying that when we hold things by faith, it is just as certain as if we held them by reason, or even more so. Is that righ, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, correct.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2147" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The troll either un-intentionally or intentionally misreads and misleads.<br />Marina, try not to engage him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2148" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel- It was this or another episode of Buffy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Okay, some people are just not as far along as others (including me). It would help if we all stopped calling each other heretics and trolls, though of course I did this too, partly jokingly.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will comply with your request Catherine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess that would take the fun out of everything for everyone though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2152" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only use the term troll as a formal designation to effectively convey to people what they are getting into. I have not and do not call anyone a heretic, because that is beyond my competency to determine. Someone might say something heretical, but I find that it is seldom useful to tell people that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2153" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, does this sound right?: God reveals himself to us. That revelation is what we study in sacred theology. <br />But we can also know things about God through natural reason (in a very limited way). <br />If you agree with that, as you seem to, wouldn't you say that our study of God would be missing a piece if we did not pay attention BOTH to how we know God through revelation, AND how we can know him through reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2154" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T03:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T03:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, of course you're not calling people heretics. (Well, not of course... PERHAPS you may have done such a thing in past years.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2155" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So that's all that necessary means in this case. Not that you NEED to read Aristotle's metaphysics and understand everything he said about oneness and being etc. to know what God has revealed about himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2156" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-25T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T02:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good woman, Catherine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[You can all go back to name-calling when I go deal with my insomnia elsewhere.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2158" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T02:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T02:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys are over achievers. You are 263 over 2000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2159" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope he can here what you are saying, Catherine. The same has been said to him before and to no avail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought you were going to bed, Jody! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2161" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T02:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought you were too! Just checking in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not in a way that everyone can understand. I don't know that I have either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps. This same argument has occurred on various threads before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2164" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, but at least we're all racking up comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2165" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which, finally, is what is important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2166" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T02:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T02:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hence the thread renaissances of various stripes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2167" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T02:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T02:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And to be clear, I think the questions posed by Scott are good questions. I just never have success in engaging him beyond the initial question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2168" class="entry even" data-likes="12" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-25T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-25T03:09:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">It amazes me that anyone would ignore the necessity for at least the most basic natural knowledge in understanding even one word of scripture. In determining what a term means, who would question, when possible, studying contexts outside of scripture (it is not like biblical Hebrew is the simplest thing)<br />Maybe some knowledge of what a mustard plant is like can help understanding that parable. Christ used imagery that would require generations of faithful to either study or accept from those that have things outside of revelation.<br />If in the most basic understanding outside knowledge is presumed, then revelation/scripture/theology cannot be wholly self-contained.<br />When we go further, we find that Christ is both God and man. True God, true man. Hmm....the concept of person is not in scripture. It is a concept, though, that corresponds with true reality. But not one worked out much before Christianity. So in coming to understand what the Incarnation meant, we had to turn to the light of reason and understand the reality accessible to it more clearly. And in doing so, having an understanding of personhood, we then saw the revealed truth to a greater extent. Call it philosophy, metaphysics, etc, but the greater natural knowledge means a greater understanding of a very basic tenet of the faith. We cannot even begin to articulate "true God, true man" without such aid.<br />How can anyone honestly doubt the benefits of studying philosophy, and especially metaphysics, for understanding the faith? Metaphysics is the study of being qua being. If one prefers, just as knowledge of the mustard plant gives a greater context to the parable of Christ, so too the knowledge of being qua being cannot but give a greater knowledge of the context of revelation, by shedding light on the very basic principles of His creation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2169" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T03:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T03:47:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_2170" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-25T05:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-25T05:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2171" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-25T05:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-25T05:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to get back to John Ruplinger's questions above though. John R: I think a good example of a "hermeneutic of reform in continuity" is Tom Pink's reading of Dignitatis Humanae. Pink shows how there is "continuity and discontinuity at different levels." The continuity is at the level of principles. As Pink shows, the Church has always held that the state has no native right to coerce in matters of religion, that the Church does have this right over the baptized, and that the Church can use the state as a secular arm to do this. The discontinuity is at the level of discipline; the Church in DH decides _as a matter of discipline_ to not make use of a secular arm. See: https://www.academia.edu/.../What_is_the_Catholic...<br />and:<br />http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../on-religious-liberty...<br />It seems to me that there is nothing arbitrary in this; it is not a trick to impose Pink's own private opinion on the teachings of the Church, it is really an attempt to understand those teachings and their development.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T06:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T06:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/GB2yiIoEtXw<br />1080p HD "Good Morning" ~ Singin' in the Rain (1952)<br />From a recently surfaced 1080p High-Definition digital transfer of Singin' in the Rain (1952). Let's hope Warner decides to release a restored version of thi...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2173" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-25T07:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-25T07:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh my goodness, you really broke 2000... nice work kids.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T07:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T07:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing to see here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T07:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T07:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since so much of revelation was revealed by Aristotle, we therefore hold that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. The supernatural comes from the natural. Revelation comes from reason. God comes from man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T07:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T07:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems that Faith comes from Reason, therefore metaphysics and reason is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology, just as Man is necessary for the fulfillment of God because God comes from Man.<br />On the contrary...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2177" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:07:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will never forgive any of you for making me catch up on 400 comments. <br />Let's try a new way of reformulating the same old crap:<br />To study sacred theology, the Church, in her Extraordinary Magisterium recommends studying St. Thomas.<br />St. Thomas can't be studied in a vacuum.<br />Therefore, one needs to study that which St. Thomas's theology requires. <br />Therefore one should study metaphysics. <br />But one can't study metaphysics in a vacuum.<br />Therefore one must study natural theology, and philosophy.<br />and we have just deduced the TAC curriculum backwards.<br />Heresy....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T08:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the contrary, the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology, and reason is insufficient for the fulfillment of faith, and the sacred science.<br />In response to this infallible teaching, TAC alumni claim that a section from the Catholic Encylopedia says the exact opposite of what it really says.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2179" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">you keep insisting that.... but you have no evidence, other than Pope Perescott's pronouncement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone here would agree with this "On the contrary, the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology, and reason [alone] is insufficient for the fulfillment of faith, and the sacred science."<br />I add "alone" because obviously there must be rational or intellectual beings in order for there to be revelation. <br />This is what TAC teaches, this is what everyone here would agree with. If this is all you are saying, then there is no conflict.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Daniel, he is saying that TAC and the founders and the grads, and the people who only went for two years but can make an actual ARGUMENT (I'm looking at you Escalante) claim that reason alone is sufficient. <br />It is, for the nth time, a straw man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2182" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know. I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2183" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland has guilted me into addressing the madness again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T08:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T08:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Behind this Potemkin village of black-robed students and mission-style buildings, dwells the host of rational heresies which proport that reason is necessary for the fulfillment of Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2185" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Says who? Were you there polling people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2186" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can someone have faith without reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2187" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does faith even make sense without reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you can go to heaven without theology, however.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2189" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perescott, when he's not trollin' he's pollin'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2190" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously someone must have the rational faculty to have faith. Obviously, God has no need of the natural order of learning. <br />However, if one wants to pursue the study of Sacred Theology in a scientific manner, one must reason to do so. Consequently, a solid grasp of the sciences which perfect the intellect and its use are necessary in order to do that well. <br />Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2191" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The study of Sacred Theology is not necessary in order to be saved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2192" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so neither is metaphysics, on which Sacred Theology rests, NECESSARILY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2193" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:35:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">to go back to what Peregrott just wrote "reason is necessary for the fulfillment of Faith" is totally wrong. Reason is necessary for the scientific explanation of the faith. This would only be a problem if someone thought that Fulfillment=scientific explanation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2194" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T08:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T08:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, precisely Micheal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2195" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T08:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T08:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you address heresies without reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2196" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-25T08:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-25T08:44:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2197" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T08:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also really like how PE quoted Pope John Paul II's words from Fides et Ratio: "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2198" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, that's a pretty good quote:<br />"Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2199" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T08:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T08:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(purely parenthetically - I'm still hoping for perfection)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2200" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T09:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My personal favorite from Fides et Ratio (at least that pertains to this topic) is: "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2201" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:21:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">now that's just silly Daniel, can't you see I just posted that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2202" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T09:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T09:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am such a silly ass.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2203" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course Peretroll Bonamagisterium would simply read the quote to say that TAC is a hotbed (flowerbed?) of heresy because TAC thinks reason is sufficient</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2204" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*silly gnostic ass*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2205" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T09:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, philosophy aids in the articulation of revelation, just as good grammar does. But sacred theology is fulfilled alone by revelation, and in no way depends on metaphysics. In fact, metaphysics would be impossible without revelation. All this is true, unless you go to TAC, then you believe revelation and Faith comes from Aristotle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, if you go to TAC, odds are you're a complete jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2207" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">how do you jive what you just wrote with the 5 times cited encyclical? (not the jerk part, I'll grant you that)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2208" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lemme distill:<br />"Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2209" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Philosophy....of being" = metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T09:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now, Lumen Fidei teaches that the act of love is the core of Faith.<br />But TAC responds, no, the act of reason is the core of faith and without it, faith would be impossible.<br />However, the Church teaches that right reason is impossible without grace, and a correct metaphysics is impossible without revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Fides et Ratio is good counsel, but TAC goes off the deep end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2212" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T09:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you like putting words into our mouths?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2214" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">just dodge what people ask you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2215" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe I figured it out. <br />"Now, Lumen Fidei teaches that the act of love is the core of Faith."<br />what the hell does that mean? 'act of love'? what's that? Core? In what respect. <br />Distinguo distinguo distinguo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2216" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T09:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think more terms have been added to the dance. I thought faith = faith = faith and nothing else was needed. But now faith has something else... Which is Love (or more properly, Charity).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T09:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Fides et Ratio is good counsel"? Is that how you treat the extraordinary magisterium?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2218" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-25T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-25T10:02:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair: "it does not suffice occasionally to clip the roots of the brambles, if the ground is not dug deeply so as to check them beginning again to multiply, and if there are not removed their seeds and root causes from which they grow so easily. That is why, since the prolonged study of human philosophy—which God has made empty and foolish, as the Apostle says, when that study lacks the flavouring of divine wisdom and the light of revealed truth—sometimes leads to error rather than to the discovery of the truth, we ordain and rule by this salutary constitution, in order to suppress all occasions of falling into error with respect to the matters referred to above, that from this time onwards none of those in sacred orders, whether religious or seculars or others so committed, when they follow courses in universities or other public institutions, may devote themselves to the study of philosophy or poetry for longer than five years after the study of grammar and dialectic, without their giving some time to the study of theology or pontifical law. Once these five years are past, if someone wishes to sweat over such studies, he may do so only if at the same time, or in some other way, he actively devotes himself to theology or the sacred canons; so that the Lord's priests may find the means, in these holy and useful occupations, for cleansing and healing the infected sources of philosophy and poetry." – Fifth Lateran Council</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Faith without love is dead. It is a broken gong, as St. Paul states. It is not really Faith unless it has love. Abraham's Faith (and He is our Father in Faith) was fulfilled through his act of love of God. <br />You may have Aristotle, and be a total jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's sad they do not teach you about love at TAC.<br />Just Aristotle, and of course revelation would be impossible without the Philosopher; hence you are a bunch of jerks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2221" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-25T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-25T10:06:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The message about love is clear- second semester junior year!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you, Pater Edmund, for that lovely treatise on clipping brambles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2223" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is they say in that damned song played at all the dances? "You can't hurry love<br />No, you just have to wait<br />You got to trust, give it time<br />No matter how long it takes"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well of course, Katie, the Church teaches that love comes from TAC's second semester in junior year. That's why you guys are the greatest EVER.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2225" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Phil Colins? He was better when he just played the drums behind Peter Gabriel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2226" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I may be a total jerk (though I've never cited Aristoilet on this thread) but you don't seem to be acquitting yourself of jerkness too well either</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Francis de Sales warns about dancing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2228" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I thought it was heretical somehow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2229" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-25T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T10:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Peregrine never sleep?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St Francis de Sales is Magisterium cathedrae magistralis, Lateran V is extraordinary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think dancing may be imprudent and may lead somewhere bad, especially when you consider how you could be praying for the poor souls in purgatory instead. I think that's what St. Francis says in his Intro to the Devout Life... but he did not have the grace to attend TAC or do the swing, which clearly is the pre-emeinent dance of angels. If the Church does not teach this, it should. Because this is what they do at TAC, and TAC is the GREATEST EVER.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">did you read Pater Edmund's quote from Lateran V?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2233" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you ever ponder what a big jerk you sound like?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2234" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one said TAC was the greatest ever and without fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Fifth Lateran Council makes it clear how flawed philosophy is, and dependent on grace. Do you think this might be why the Church teaches that revelation is necessary for right reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2236" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and right reason is necessary for the science of the faith. not for faith, but for the science. jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2237" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-25T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-25T10:16:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">While excessive, this thread is quite a glimpse into the humor of the misunderstanding of the uses of language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait a second... Ack never mind... I have a feeling you haven't been reading some of the responses...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2239" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're a jerk too Duda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2240" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hence the need for freshmen philosophy maybe?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But grace is needed for right reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith is needed for right reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith perfects reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith comes from revelation and grace and assent, not reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And revelation takes the form of sacred theology in the sacred science of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">only because I have special revelation. without God informing me that there is a need to think discursively, I won't do it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics aids sacred science, like a lowly handmaid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics does not stand at the door, thumping her breast, like Kobe Bryant, asserting that she is necessary for sacred theology to be. Metaphysics, in other words, does not act like the typical TAC alum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics does not thump her breast like LeBron James, as the founding persons of TAC have misrepresented her, those reactionaries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bringing in Grace just makes things confusing. Grace is needed for Grace is needed for Grace is needed for Grace, but Free Will! Thankfully we can accept on faith Grace and Free Will, but without reason Augustine would have failed at bringing down heresies regarding these things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2251" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">On track for 3000. I can't believe you guys have had several threads of this. You must enjoy it very much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like a dog to my own vomit, I return to slay trolls</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, Grace acts in the human soul prior to an act of free will. The infallible dogma on invincible grace states "There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will."<br />It is so sad that TAC does not study the Catholic faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2254" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you, O Peregrine, return to slay dragons and TACers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And to set the world on fire, with love of Christ and his Blessed Mother, Mary, theotokos, conceived without sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2256" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that dog/vomit quote has been cited before. Has anyone noticed that thread is recursive? Has anyone noticed that this thread is recursive?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2257" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T10:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's recursive</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2258" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm glad you have such a noble goal in calling people jerks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2259" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I call people jerks out of love all the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think those who think it is recursive are crass.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is possible to call someone a jerk out of love. That word is not oustide the ball park. Other words are, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like metaphysics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And who determines which words can be said out of love and which cannot?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2264" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Words mean whatever you say they mean. Or else the magisterium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are standards for usage within the English language. There are standards for reason. It is not reasonable to state that metaphysics is the fulfillment of sacred theology, then back that false statement up with another false statement that theology would be impossible without philosophy. In the order of nature, theology would be impossible without words; but in the order of being, grace perfects nature, not the other way around.<br />Oops! I've run afoul of the Blue Book!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2266" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought this quote was interesting: "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics at TAC fulfills sacred theology which you can study later.<br />I know the Church says the exact opposite, but I've got to side with TAC on this one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2268" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You really have not been reading the responses have you? Especially that of Daniel Lendman, Joshua Kenz and Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, we've seen that quote already, 816 posts ago. Theology would be impossible without words too, but this is in the order of nature, not the order of being. <br />I know to most TAC alum, Faith would be impossible without your theology seminar, but again this is in the order of nature, not being.<br />We are Catholics first, alumnists second.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2270" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about this. I am going to yell with love. "WITHOUT PHILOSOPHY'S CONTRIBUTION,IT WOULD IN FACT BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DISCUSS THEOLOGICAL ISSUES such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES! WORDS ARE NECESSARY TO THEOLOGY.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we're agreeing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(75, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine... without WORDS, it would be impossible to discuss theology. THIS IS IN THE ORDER OF NATURE, NOT BEING. IN THE ORDER OF BEING, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REASON RIGHTLY WITHOUT GRACE AND REVELATION. THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES. TAC TEACHES THE OPPOSITE, HOLDING UP THE ORDER OF NATURE FOR THE ORDER OF BEING AND THUMPING ITS BREAST. IT IS PATHETIC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2274" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T10:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The call of the cthreadulhu: "That thread is not dead, which can eternal lie. Yet with strange aeons even death may die." To gaze upon it, is to know madness, and to comment, is to never escape.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being is another complicated word to toss around. But at least we are getting somewhere with what Josh said about the order of knowing now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2276" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Timothy Moore" data-date="2014-08-25T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Moore at 2014-08-25T10:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_2277" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvhTwefXcMs<br />I hate Squirrels - UP<br />Sometimes Squirrels can really be distraction<br />August 25 at 10:50am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley I'll shorten the quote so you don't miss the important part: "It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is good counsel to study metaphysics, but sacred theology is fulfilled without it. In the order of learning, we would not get far in a theological discussion without first learning a language. But in the order of being, as things are in themselves, as God has made them, revelation and grace fulfill reason, not the other way around.<br />THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES AS SOMETHING WE MUST BELIEVE.<br />It is sad you do not know this, or regard phrases like order of nature and order of being as arbitrary toss around phrases. This discussion, these words and these truths have been around for centuries.<br />TAC IS TOO BUSY BOASTING TO TAKE PART IN THIS DISCUSSION.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I might repeat that quote</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">until you get it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2281" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(which would probably cause this thread to reach some kind of record)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-25T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-25T10:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, this is still going? Should I crank up the Kajagoogoo and start trying to read it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2283" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Back a while ago, Daniel Lendman pointed out that Faith is imperfect as knowledge except with regard to certitude: a claim you had trouble with for some reason. I'd like you to explain how Faith differs from the Beatific Vision and why the latter is more perfect and desirable than the former. I think it might help you see why Sacred Theology depends on reason to flesh out the structure given by the dogmaticly promulgated principles of theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, sacred theology takes a correct sapiential philosophy for granted, in the order of nature, in the order of learning. This is a correct statement. Just as it takes a correct grammar and language. This does not mean, as TAC wrongly asserts, that metaphysics is necessary for the FULFILLMENT of scred theology. <br />On the contrary, in the order of being, ontologically and metaphysically, grace and revelation are the only things that are necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology; AND for the fulfillment of reason and a legitimate metaphysics.<br />THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES AS AN INFALLIBLE DOGMA.<br />You are twisting it because you have been brainwashed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T10:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I don't think he's reading the responses anyways, because Josh Kenz just distinguished the order of being and nature and relation to philosophy and theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, the Faith of the Church is infallible. The Church is infallible in regards to faith and morals. This is also a dogma of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2287" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-25T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-25T10:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_2288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It also might help you see that a Catholic education might be able to promote the Faith of the students without teaching sacred theology: for example one might call a certain course of studies in theoretical physics a "Catholic education" because it enables one to see that there are no scientific objections to the Faith. In fact, today, such an education might be the best education for a significant portion of students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, you are dismissing the correctness of my statements because you imagine someone named Josh to have debunked my claim. This is idiocy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2290" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T10:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We've all been brainwashed by the magisterium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2291" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T10:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pereventure, I don't think I've ever denied that, but perhaps I haven't repeated it dogmatically enough for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2292" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T10:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB--where does has the Church defined what you claim it teaches? I'd like to see the magisterial statements upon which you base your claims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He likes putting words in people's mouths Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, you might benefit from knowing that Catholic colleges err when they teach that sacred theology is fulfilled by metaphysics, instead of the deposit of the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone told a joke once which I think fits the situation:<br />Peregrine doesn't just want to read his own opinions, he wants to read other people repeating his own opinions in their own words.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How did I put words in anyone's mouth? Lauren, you are clearly unable to have a serious discussion. Do you think that order of being is not a legitimate theologival fact?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You just said (or implied) that Ed was saying the church was not infallible with regards to faith and morals and he didn't say anything of that kind!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, you have just lost an argument. In the order of being, revelation and grace perfect reason and fulfill sacred theology. This is what the Church teaches. TAC teaches the opposite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus everyone else has used church documents etc to support their arguments. And you have not responded to direct and simple questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2300" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith is imperfect. That comes from St. Paul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2301" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2302" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still waiting for your essay on the difference between the Beatific Vision and Faith in which you realize that, since Faith is not the Beatific Vision, it leaves room in the speculative order for fulfillment by the discourse of reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2303" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T11:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I try to make it my mission in life to object to everything that comes out of Ed's mouth, but now it's becoming next to impossible because for once he's actually saying everything simply </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that's a really roundabout way of saying that you agree with him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, Ed, above, objected to how I disputed a previous claim that Faith is imperfect as knowledge. Faith is in no way imperfect. The Faith of the Church is infallible. The Church's teaching on Faith is infallible. He is suggesting that it is imperfect in some way because Faith is not reasoned to. This is ridiculous.<br />besides, this is a dodge. The only issue here is TAC's false claim that sacred theology would be unfulfilled without metaphysics. This statement in the Blue Book is unequivocal, This is utter heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren is worried about encouraging vanity, I think. She also is generally unwilling to admit that I'm ever right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2307" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T11:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Still waiting on you, PB, for your magesterial sources. Care to cite a text or two?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2308" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I Corinthians 13:12 videmus nunc per speculum in enigmate tunc autem facie ad faciem nunc cognosco ex parte tunc autem cognoscam sicut et cognitus sum</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, you can go look up the dogmas of the Church. If you believe that sacred theology depends on them, and if you are presuming to speak for the sacred science, then you must know where to find these.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2310" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, I don't speak for sacred science, nor do I speak for you. YOU go find texts for your positions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The fear of the Lord is wisdom."<br />"It is not flesh and blood which has revealed these things, but my Father in heaven."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2312" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC isn't claiming that sacred theology would be unfulfilled without metaphysics. They are claiming (in line with the non-Scott magisterium) that Sacred theology is impossible without metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2313" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yay! Now we are sola scriptura and taking verses all on their own! Very Catholic thing to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://memegenerator.net/instance/53763039<br />Y U disgrace me? | Peregrine<br />memegenerator.net<br />Note: Only personal attacks are removed, otherwise if it's just content you find offensive, you are free to browse other websites.<br />August 25 at 11:12am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Peregrine Bonaventure Joel, if you call yourself Catholic, you should know the dogmas of the Church. If you have studied theology, you should know the principles of sacred theology. <br />If TAC is claiming that sacred theology would be impossible without metaphysics, they are clearly wrong. This is the same thing as saying that Faith would be impossible without Reason, or that the supernatural comes from nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2315" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://memegenerator.net/instance/53763062<br />The Peregrine is not amused | Peregrine<br />memegenerator.net<br />Note: Only personal attacks are removed, otherwise if it's just content you find offensive, you are free to browse other websites.<br />August 25 at 11:13am · Like · 3 · Remove Preview<br />Catherine Ryland In other words, you can't study anything about what is divinely revealed (=sacred theology) without also studying things about being, person and so on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, is your position that "Sacred Theology == Faith"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2317" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If not, tell us how they differ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, you can.<br />No, that is not my position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2319" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do they differ? What does the notion of "Sacred Theology" add to the gift of faith? Promulgation by the magesterium? Or (GASP) reasoning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith is assent to the principles of sacred theology. Faith can also be assent to the principles of natural theology, if those are revealed and in the deposit of the faith. So you do not need to study metaphysics in order to have sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, the conclusion of your argument is that metaphysics is not necessary for faith. you botched it again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacred theology is the process by which we incorporate tradition into the development of doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2323" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a virtus dormitiva definition if I've ever seen one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You do not need metaphysics for Faith or sacred theology. Not when the principles are revealed. There is an implicit reasonability to this sacred theology, but it does not necessarily follow from metaphysics; however a valid metaphysics necessarily follows from grace and revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2325" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Oh, I forgot that you don't approve of reading either Moliere or Nietzsche)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2327" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T11:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine, have we defined magesterium yet? Magesterially?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, you are suceeding in your attempt to sound intelligent, but you are being a fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2329" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Freudian projection?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2330" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">'How does opium induce sleep? "By means of a means (faculty)," namely the virtus dormitiva, replies the doctor in Moliere,<br />Quia est in eo virtus dormitiva,<br />Cujus est natura sensus assoupire.<br />But such replies belong to the realm of comedy.' -- Nietzsche, BG&E</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2331" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nietsche and Freud are irrelevant to this discussion. So, apparently, are you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, Sacred Theology is not a process.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2334" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, the Stand-up Comedian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2335" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Andrew Simone" data-date="2014-08-25T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Simone at 2014-08-25T11:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm reminded today why I don't miss this place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe we should start a new thread of agreed upon definitions. Do we have any candidates? We could call it the thread that has no beginning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2337" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, Scott. I am an irrelevant heretical thug. You nailed it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, it most certainly is a process. sacred theology is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of grace. And this is the life of the Magisterium as it has unfolded in the fullness of time. You do not know what you are talking about. To say that sacred theology is not a process is to reduce revelation to imminantism, which is another heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2339" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most of us are just amusing ourselves while we wait for you to answer approximately 500 questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You said it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">STUDYING sacred theology is a process.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2342" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">this thread is sempiternal. It's not possible to have a thread that has no beginning, because then there would be no first comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but don't confuse the science and the study of the science</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacred theology itself is a process. you are Ed are arrogant imbeciles. Material heretics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geometry is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of shape.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Natural Philosophy is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of motion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geometry is in no way necessary to the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2348" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">knitting is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of yarn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2350" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that was my point Catherine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Natural philosophy is in no way necessary to sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2352" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Carpentry is the process of going from things better constructed to things newly constructed and unfolding in the order of wood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics is in no way necessary to sacred theology, in the order of being. This is what the Church teaches. But TAC is smarter than the Magisterium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just illustrating the idiocy of your definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley is a fool in the process of being more foolish, in the order of nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2356" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh crap Perescott! You just claimed that Edward's being is his act of existing?!?! Now who's the material heretic!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The process I'm using is known as baculation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I learned it from Aristotle's Topics and Avicenna's metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2359" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T11:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">a non TAC thesis: does the lack of a magesterial definition of magesterium lead to the reform of the eternal reform and the creation of eternal troll dwelling threads?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2360" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T11:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well that escalated quickly. Good job with classing up the discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2361" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Not every problem, nor every thesis, should be examined, but only one which might puzzle one of those who need argument, not punishment or perception. For people who are puzzled to know whether one ought to honour the gods and love one's parents or not need punishment, while those who are puzzled to know whether snow is white or not need perception." (Topics, I.11)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Saying that scared theology is a process is in no way idiocy. It illustrates that it begins with revealed principles which, in turn, inform metaphysics. It illustrates the error of saying that metaphysics fulfills sacred theology. In fact, the process goes the other way, grace perfecting nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're asking you for a definition of a habit and you're defining an action.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you had studied Aristotle's Categories better, you might realise your mistake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you are just being a fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T11:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but mb, not only should pb assent to Edward then but also offer latreia. He is a very inconsistent heretic. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">still, Scott, no one is saying that metaphysics perfects theology. You keep saying that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, TAC states that metaphysics is the fulfillment of sacred theology, and that it is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology.<br />It is important for Catholic students to develop a theological habit of mind. We do this by understanding how sacred theology works, in the life of the Magisterium.<br />TACs claim undermines this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T11:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I blame the magesterium for this entire thread for not defining . . . in this case magesterium. Is it ok then to take a peek at tradition when definitions were not out of touch with times? Or is that too heretical?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2370" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The troll (sorry Catherine) makes no sense when he says that Sacred Theology is a process, especially since he has above called it a science. Science does not have motion, otherwise we would not know it, because it would be different, constantly. <br />Moreover, I will go further than I have before. Since metaphysics is necessary for the study and comprehension and perfection of Sacred Theology, then so also is the philosophy of nature, and logic, and even some measure of all the liberal arts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2371" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a distinction between the order of learning and the order of being, but you are using it wrong, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2372" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geometry might not be necessary to faith, but it sure makes understanding faith better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2373" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott has already demonstrated above that he does not know or understand the definition of metaphysics or of Sacred Theology. Thus, he confuses the two.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2374" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's really too bad that my interwebs addiction and a deep commitment to continuing this thread has coincided with a love of irrational argument, a severe case of insomnia, and a work deadline that isn't until sometime next week. (And all the usual real-life people I argue with being absent.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2375" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it is any consolation, your participation on this thread makes it loads more delightful. It also gives a stunning counter-example whenever it is stated that TAC grads are, universally, jerks. <br />It is hard to argue against that claim with Edward, Beitia and I around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, don't worry, I am definitely a jerk too. And most certainly a heretic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you tried to be a jerk once, Catherine, and we all laughed. Your faults are other. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I think this thread also proves that the premise isn't convertible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2379" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clayton, I am afraid that this discussion will make poor material for your classes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(91, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, your argument is to pretend that you are smarter. It is like a little Potemkin village.<br />Sacred theology would be impossible without a lot of things. But the Church teaches that without revelation, grace and the sacred science, the sapiential sciences would err. This is our Faith. This is what the Church teaches.<br />TAC does not teach the Faith. It teaches a reactionary's version of Catholic academia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Roma locuta est. Causa finita est.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you better not think about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, weren't you the one claiming that order of being is a term being tossed around a few minutes ago?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2384" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 32%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T11:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Bonaventure, I think you might profit from the Seraphic Doctor's "De reductione artium ad theologiam". When I read it last semester, I remember thinking that it was the blue book before the blue book was a thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T11:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude. That is not my argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2386" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Haggard" data-date="2014-08-25T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Haggard at 2014-08-25T11:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just trying to do my part to get this thread to 2500 comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you are a bunch of jerks. Anyone who would defend the idea that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of the sacred science, when the Church teaches that all natural theology would err without her Wisdom, is an arrogant fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T11:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not only you defending such foolishness, you are defending it tooth and nail. Jerks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quod proferitur, refero</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2390" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do we need to call names again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2391" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, forgive me you arrogant, misinformed Catholic, what is your argument? I'm sorry if I missed it. I must have mistaken it for drivel. But do tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't get to/reach truths that are solely revealed by God (like the Trinity) with your unaided reason. No one is arguing that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you can't consider anything revelation gives us about the Trinity unless you use your reason or rational faculty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2395" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This doesn't make sense:<br />Anyone who would defend the idea that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of the sacred science, when the Church teaches that all natural theology would err without her Wisdom, is an arrogant fool.<br />And since, I am already an arrogant jerk, I should let it be known that I am really freaking smart. So, if it doesn't make sense to me, chances are, the problem is yours.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And reason about immaterial things is metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2397" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T12:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the troll confuses "Tool" with "fulfillment" and applies it to TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because the only reasonable explanation you maintain such false pretences is because you are an arrogant jerk of a misinformed Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jerk, that's no argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">where does it claim that metaphysics is the "fulfillment"? You keep adding that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^neither is that^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what Catherine? <br />Daniel, it is perfectly reasonable. You are incompetent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2404" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T12:07:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's awesome that Peregrine is so loyally devoted to TAC that he has consecrated all his waking hours to amusing its alumni</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T12:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">shhh you'll let him in on our gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2406" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">'"Omne datum optimum et omne donum perfectum desursum est, descendens a Patre luminum", Iacobus in Epistulae suae primo capitulo. In hoc verbo tangitur origo omnis illuminationis, et simul cum hoc insinuatur multiplicis luminis ab illa fontali luce liberalis emanatio. Licet autem omnis illuminatio cognitionis interna sit, possumus tamen rationabiliter distinguere, ut dicamus, quod est lumen exterius, scilicet lumen artis mechanicae; lumen inferius, scilicet lumen cognitionis sensitivae; lumen interius, scilicet lumen cognitionis philosophicae; lumen superius, scilicet lumen gratiae et sacrae Scripturae. Primum lumen illuminat respectu figurae artificialis, secundum respectu formae naturalis, tertium respectu veritatis intellectualis, quartum et ultimum respectu veritatis salutaris.<br />...<br />Et sic patet, quomodo "multiformis sapientia Dei", quae lucide traditur in sacra Scriptura, occultatur in omni cognitione et in omni natura. Patet etiam, quomodo omnes cognitiones famulantur theologiae; et ideo ipsa assumit exempla et utitur vocabulis pertinentibus ad omne genus cognitionis. Patet etiam, quam ampla sit via illuminativa, et quomodo in omni re, quae sentitur sive quae cognoscitur, interius lateat ipse Deus. - Et hic est fructus omnium scientiarum, ut in omnibus aedificetur fides, "honorificetur Deus", componantur mores, hauriantur consolationes, quae sunt in unione sponsi et sponsae, quae quidem fit per caritatem, ad quam terminatur tota intentio sacrae Scripturae, et per consequens omnis illuminatio desursum descendens, et sine qua omnis cognitio vana est, quia nunquam pervenitur ad Filium nisi per Spiritum sanctum, qui docet nos omnem veritatem, "qui est benedictus in saecula saeculorum. Amen".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2407" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(197, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This really is a masterful exposition of the order of the intellectual life: http://www.forumromanum.org/liter.../bonaventura/reduct.html<br />Bonaventura: De reductione artium ad theologiam<br />www.forumromanum.org<br />1 "Omne datum optimum et omne donum perfectum desursum est, descendens a Patre luminum", Iacobus in Epistulae suae primo capitulo. In hoc verbo tangitur origo omnis illuminationis, et simul cum hoc insinuatur multiplicis luminis ab illa fontali luce liberalis emanatio. Licet autem omnis illuminatio…<br />August 25 at 12:09pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Daniel Lendman Given that I have graduated Summa Cum Laud from two graduate institutions...nope. I am not incompetent. I am playing the part of the arrogant jerk, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2408" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially this part: "And this is the fruit of all sciences, that in all of them Faith is built up"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2409" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-25T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-25T12:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom's library is a nicer building than their church. Goes to show how they are the ones who in fact, value the intellect over the magisterium sacred tradition divine revelation church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In para 7 or section 7 of the TAC Charter, the college claims quite falsely that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology.<br />This passage has been quoted and cited about 10 times now.<br />It is telling how convenient it is for jerks and arrogant fools to ignore facts when it does not match their ignorance. <br />You do not have the ability to discuss this.<br />Metaphysics in no way fulfills, informs, completes or perfects sacred theology. Metaphysics in itself would be useless without grace and the guidance of the sacred science.<br />This is what the Church teaches in Her dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2411" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If that's the case, why does the Tradition use the analogy of the mind to illuminate the doctrine of the Trinity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(The other reason to read the Seraphic Doctor is that his Latin prose is amazing)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In matters of Faith and the sacred science, and the principles thereof, Catholic thinkers go by what the Church teaches, not by what some reactionaries dreamed up in the 60s.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T12:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Love that quote, Edward. Is that Bonaventure?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2415" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics IS useless without grace because then it is the highest science w/o qualification. With Sacred Theology it is useful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, and there is a host of Fathers and Doctors of the Church who use the various philosophical theories of the mind to illumine the doctrine of the Trinity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John R, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A queen can't do anything without servants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do I really have to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2420" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I think it's time to repeat Fides et Ratio.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because you are stuck in the previous millenium and you do not know what you are talking about because you desire first to seem intelligent but come across as an arrogant fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2422" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arrogant, maybe. Not a fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2424" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T12:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what he says there underlies some things I have said herein. Have you a translation for the benefit of the rest? (Faith illuminates all things. Our assent is liberating. Dissent enslaves.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2426" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, do you know who the "innovatores" are? Let me give you a hint, the Church doesn't consider that term to be complimentary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2427" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">P.S. We hit 2500 a while back. Did anyone already mention that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catholic Encyclopedia and Faith and Reason do not contradict the Churches dogma on grace perfecting nature and revelation being necessary for all knowledge.<br />TAC does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unfortunately, I do not, John R.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2430" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have already explained the grace perfecting nature bit. Do I need to do it again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, no, you have to be stuck in an even more previous millenium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, you are an arrogant boy who lacks the skill and authority to make such judgements.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2433" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is an ad hominem statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man."<br />So, what JPII says is that, without philosophy we cannot discuss certain theological issues such as:<br />1) the use of language to speak about God<br />2) the personal relations within the Trinity<br />3) God's creative activity in the world<br />4) the relationship between God and man<br />5) Christ's identity as true God and true man.<br />Well, I guess that means that philosophy "in no way fulfills, informs, completes or perfects sacred theology." It must be the case that discussing these issues is completely irrelevant to Sacred Theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2435" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley has one of the finest and clearest minds I have ever encountered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2436" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T12:24:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine havent you figured this out? Peregrine "answers" all arguments by simply denying them, and his other move is ad hominem. He's only got two</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I admit that I lack the skill to make judgments, that's a long hard road to travel: I've barely begun deciding how to judge logical and mathematical problems, to say nothing about natural philosophy, metaphysics and sacra doctrina.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2438" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I suppose I only have authority to make such judgments when dealing with my son.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2439" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I like what I said about grace perfecting nature, so I will say it again: <br />Grace, in this case faith, perfects nature, in this case metaphysics. This is where babies come fro... I mean, this is where Sacred Theology comes from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grace perfecting nature. Revelation perfecting reason. Sacred theology perfecting metaphysics, not the other way around. You cannot study theology without studying the Church and Her dogmas.<br />It is impossible to study this without that underscores the implicit reasonability. It does not mean you have to read Aristotle to get sacred theology right.<br />TAC gets it very wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, grace does not perfect metaphysics. You make it sound like if you pray and attend Mass, God will give you grace to get metaphysics right and fulfill sacred theology. In fact, this is what the founders of TAC tell you.<br />in fact, the sacred science perfects metaphysics, the higher perfecting the lower, so that it is useful. This is why you should study more doctrine at TAC.<br />Again, this is what the Church teaches de fidei.<br />TAC gets it wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No you certainly don't. That is not what anyone is saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2443" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, imagine this. Imagine there was nothing to perfect. So, in this case, no metaphysics. Okay, now what would faith do? There is nothing to perfect, so there is no grace operating, so there is no Sacred Theology and it all goes to pot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2444" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:31:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Distinguish the speculative and practical orders:<br />In the practical order, Faith is all that is necessary for the intellect, since good action doesn't require one to know why what one is doing is the right thing to do: all one needs is certitude about the right course of action.<br />In the speculative order, Faith helps but cannot suffice because when the intellect knows _that_ something is true it seeks to know _why_ it is true. Ultimately, that "why" is hidden in this life "underneath the veil" but we can approximate it by calling upon the aid of philosophy.<br />You would be on much firmer ground if you deny that Sacred Theology is a speculative science: that is, after all, the position of Albert the Great, Bonaventure, Scotus and the Franciscan school. But if you admit that there is a speculative science of Sacred Theology, faith cannot suffice for the perfection of that science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott. you have so many intelligent, thoughtful, patient, and well-read people, arguing against you. <br />Does that give you any pause?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2446" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Dylan Naegele" data-date="2014-08-25T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dylan Naegele at 2014-08-25T12:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Having gone to TAC, it was probably inevitable that this fascinating monstrosity of a Scott Pilgrim Versus TAC would make it on to my news feed, despite my not knowing Mr. Peterson. Since I don't want to re-read a threat that looks longer and even more convoluted than the City of God, can someone explain:<br />1. Who is "Peregrine Bonaventure"? (maybe you can!)<br />2. What is his connection to TAC?<br />3. Why he is obsessed TAC including metaphysics in the curriculum?<br />4. Whether he is employed or has a life outside of this thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2447" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">God's grace is primarily concerned with the practical order, since he gives us grace to save us. So, it's right to say that metaphysics doesn't percfect faith in that order. But it's foolish to think that faith can satisfy man's desire to know the cause: go that route and you turn into Kierkegaard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2448" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dylan<br />1) he's Scott Weinberg, I think, a troll who lives on stalking TACers.<br />2) he tried freshman year repeatedly<br />3) he thinks he's the pope<br />4) ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2449" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dylan, <br />Peregrine Bonaventure is Scott Weinberg <br />He was asked to leave TAC some years ago by Dr. Kaiser. He finished up his education at Christendom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beat me, Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Dylan Naegele" data-date="2014-08-25T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dylan Naegele at 2014-08-25T12:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah. Thanks. This makes more sense now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2452" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said this over 2,000 comments ago, so it bears repeating. <br />TAC is the best!!! <br />I am the best!!!! <br />USA! USA! USA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2453" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(taking best inclusively to mean "that than which there is no greater")</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2454" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you just say Daniel is fat?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2455" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh and if anyone is interested in Zoroastrianism (I am.) This is cool:<br />http://kaogu.net.cn/.../Academic.../2014/0815/47198.html<br />Chinese Archaeology<br />kaogu.net.cn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, you state that it is "foolish to think that faith can satisfy man's desire to know the cause." This completely contradicts Scripture. You are an arrogant fool. You have lost this argument.<br />Anyone would be blessed to not go to TAC.<br />And why do you continue to assert that I am someone who I am not. I know Scot Weinberg. He finished his education with a masters degree in Literature and Rhetoric at CUA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2457" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T12:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ ^ Thanks for the hat tip, Daniel! Geez</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2458" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's where I found it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Dylan Naegele" data-date="2014-08-25T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dylan Naegele at 2014-08-25T12:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you aren't that one guy, then who are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2460" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry JA Escalante, I couldn't remember who had posted the article..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just joshing you anyhow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2462" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, just and FYI, no where in Scripture does it say that Faith satisfies man's desire to know the cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith pushes us to go beyond. We long to see The Cause, who is Love Himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, you state that it is "foolish to think that faith can satisfy man's desire to know the cause." This completely contradicts Scripture. You are an arrogant fool. You have lost this argument.'<br />If this were so, then who would need the Beatific Vision?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2465" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Dylan Naegele" data-date="2014-08-25T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dylan Naegele at 2014-08-25T12:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Peregrine/Scott/Whoever You Are, could you do me the small favor of laying your argument out in a clear, logical fashion? At the moment, you seem to resemble the people who stand on street corners with megaphones yelling gibberish about heaven and hell rather than someone who claims to understand the correct method to study theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, just for kicks, I hereby declare that Peregrine NottheSeraphicDoctor has lost the argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2467" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dylan, you have no idea what you are asking for. But, if he won't, I will dive back into the abyss and pull them up for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2468" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T12:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and per our conversation above, we could replace second semester Senior year lab with this! <br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../measure-speed-of-light...<br />Joel HF, Pater Edmund, Catherine Ryland<br />Here's How To Calculate The Speed Of Light In Your Own Home<br />www.huffingtonpost.com<br />You may think your microwave is good only for making popcorn or heating up last night's leftovers. But with a big chocolate bar and a little ingenuity, you can use use your microwave to calculate the speed of light. "It's possible to measure ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2469" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T12:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ladies and gents, 3000 is within our grasp!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, it is by grace that we come to Beatitude, not reason.<br />Your assertions are almost unbelievable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2471" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T12:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">my favorite quote was of the Seraphic doctor by Edward. Bonaventure wins! Argumentum finitum est. Bonaventura locutus est.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2472" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I explicitly said that i.e. "in the practical order . . ."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless you think that we are saved by the perfection of our speculative intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2474" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-25T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-25T12:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's my summary of the Peregrine argument to this point.<br />TAC is a heresy factory.<br />You are all products TAC.<br />Therefore you are all heretics.<br />Quod erat demonstrandum, losers!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I have laid out the argument 15 times now. Surely, you are being disingenuous.<br />TAC claims that metaphysics is necessary to fulfill sacred theology. These are the words TAC uses.<br />The Church teaches de fidei that the opposite is true. TAC gets it wrong. This leads to intellectual imperfection, arrogance, etc.<br />I am glad I did not go to TAC.<br />This is the argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually i think some of pb's concern's might be corroborated if pb would listen and engage in discussion. IE. Corrobated in the bonaventure quote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, it doesn't matter what order you are talking about. When you deny that man is saved and perfected by supernatural grace, when you deny that everything in nature is perfected by grace, you are talking jibberish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blue Book quote: <br />"But, as theology itself teaches, there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human reason. This knowledge, traditionally named metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, here again is the argument.<br />TAC teaches that metaphysics is necessary to perfect sacred theology.<br />This claim is false. This claim is the contrary of the Catholic dogma on sacred theology and revelation. <br />TAC teaches a heresy.<br />Its students are crass.<br />I am very lucky I did not go there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, the quote is false. It contradicts the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Full development certainly does not mean perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">long ago now found two causes of all the fuss: one,the magesterium no longer using definitions and secondly tac's own unorthodox mutant producing biochemistry: heresy petri dish + substance d + pb = ptacd troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you think of that O-One-who-is-not-the-Seraphic-Doctor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe this is the text Scott is referencing:<br />"But, as theology itself teaches, there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human reason. This knowledge, traditionally named metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology."<br />-BK VII of the On Equal Footing to the Infallible Magesteirum Blue Book</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shoot! I included the whole title!! I have given away the game guys. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want Peregrine's opinion on this: "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphysics is not necessary for the perfection of theology. Natural theology is not necessary for the full development of the sacred science.<br />The contrary is true.<br />Hence, without knowledge of what the Church teaches in Her dogmatic theology, you err in your metaphysics.<br />This is the error of TAC.<br />You presume to understand the higher science, without studying it and the dogmas of the Church, while advancing boldly on a flawed metaphysical path.<br />This leads to arrogance and foolishness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2489" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially the "right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2490" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"full development" isn't "intrinsic perfection"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2491" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's meant in the sense of "articulation as sacred science". unless you're committed to tendentious reading</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even matter is necessary for form (of a material substance) to be properly fulfilled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott would know that if he studied the philosophy of Nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You need grace to reason correctly, Edward. Then, and only then, is there a synthesis. <br />Thomas seemed reasonably to err in Faith on more than one subject.<br />But in the sciences, the sacred science brings metaphysics to completion. Not the other way around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think my quote is true?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2496" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2497" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:07:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I've said over and over, theology is not constituted by metaphysics plus revelation in a partim/partim relation. In a way, theology does presuppose the truths of metaphysics and even carries them within itself, but *not* in the fully articulate forms of science. Thus, theology needs metaphysics to articulate itself *as a science*. This is what the citations I've given all say, and what I say, and what TAC says.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Full development is the same thing as perfection. But metaphysics does not even contribute to the partial development of the sacred science. It might seem like this historically, but this would be revisionist. Sacred theology has always guided and perfected metaphysics. This is why you need to study more doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You haven't answered my question, Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2500" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Full development is not the same thing as *intrinsic* perfection. It is a sort of accidental perfection, articulation as a discursive science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2501" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does "right reason establish the foundation of faith" or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is why I used the matter form analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2503" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">wow I never thought in my life that the words "this is what I say, and this is what TAC says" would ever be uttered by me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, the college says that you need to study metaphysics because this is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This underscores the pedagogy of the college. It is a false and erroneous teaching method, because it produces flawed conclusions. It prodices flawed conclusions because, as the Church teaches, the sacred science perfects metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, I think you are being ignored.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2506" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2507" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i can not even imagine what pb is saying anymore. How many ways\ times and with how many authorities can one make the same distinction? Even Meno would have grasped it by now. Does this prove (in the concrete as Newman might say) my opinining long ago that theology can be dangerous for a layman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2508" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2509" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh I forgot, you also resort to name-calling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Faith. Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2511" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, then you're a material heretic: that quotation was from Vatican I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, you are the one who is not responding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2513" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, that was a gotcha argument, underhanded, and dirty. I really liked it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, the appropriate response is silence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or recant?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's false Edward, and you take Vat I out of context. Right reason is an effect of assent to Faith, which is clearly the foundation of the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, you should be a part of this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, that wasn't one of the 2 options.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If he doesn't recant, I believe the conditions for formal heresy are met. In which case, we should get out our steaks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2520" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">so is Peregrine a Fideist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2521" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">is that what they do at Christendom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Foundation of the Faith is assent to God's revealed Word. It is not a valid syllogism, Edward. You are misguided. <br />Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2525" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is context:<br />The perpetual agreement of the catholic church has maintained and maintains this too: that<br />there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct<br />not only as regards its source, but also as regards its object. With regard to the source,<br />we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith. With regard to the object,<br />besides those things to which natural reason can attain, there are proposed for our belief mysteries hidden in God<br />which, unless they are divinely revealed, are incapable of being known. Wherefore, when the Apostle, who witnesses that God was known to the gentiles from created things29, comes to treat of the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ30, he declares: We impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this. God has revealed it to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God31. And the Only-begotten himself, in his confession to the Father, acknowledges that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the little ones32. Now reason,<br />does indeed<br />when it seeks persistently, piously and soberly, achieve<br />by God's gift some understanding,<br />and that most profitable, of the mysteries,<br />whether by analogy from what it knows naturally, or from the connexion of these mysteries<br />with one another and with the final end of humanity; <br />but reason<br />is never rendered capable of penetrating these mysteries in the way in which it penetrates those truths which form its proper object. For<br />the divine mysteries, by their very nature, so far surpass the created understanding that, even when a revelation has been given and accepted by faith, they remain covered by the veil of that same faith and wrapped, as it were, in a certain obscurity, as long as in this mortal life we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, and not by sight33. Even though faith is above reason, there can never be any real disagreement between faith and reason, since<br />it is the same God<br />who reveals the mysteries and infuses faith, and who has endowed the human mind with the light of reason. God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth.<br />The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either<br />the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason. Therefore we define that every assertion contrary to the truth of enlightened faith is totally false34. Furthermore the church which,<br />together with its apostolic office of teaching, has received the charge of preserving the deposit of faith, has<br />by divine appointment<br />the right and duty of condemning what wrongly passes for knowledge, lest anyone be led astray by philosophy and empty deceit35. Hence all faithful Christians<br />are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith,<br />particularly if they have been condemned by the church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth. Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for<br />on the one hand right reason<br />established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith<br />delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds. Hence, so far is the church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways. For<br />she is neither ignorant nor contemptuous of the advantages which derive from this source for human life, rather she acknowledges that those things flow from God, the lord of sciences, and, if they are properly used, lead to God by the help of his grace. Nor does the church forbid these studies to employ, each within its own area, its own proper principles and method:<br />but while she admits this just freedom, she takes particular care that they do not<br />become infected with errors by conflicting with divine teaching, or, by going beyond their proper limits, intrude upon what belongs to faith and engender confusion. For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward<br />not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence, but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated. Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding. <br />May understanding, knowledge and wisdom increase as ages and centuries roll along, and greatly and vigorously flourish, in each and all, in the individual and the whole church: but this only in its own proper kind, that is to say, in the same doctrine, the same sense, and the same understanding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2526" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">take THAT, Vatican I !</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We'll can talk about more TAC errors later.<br />Gotta go.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2528" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is close enough to silence, I suppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2529" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-25T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-25T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews It would explain how he knows TAC is a factory of heretics. As he is one......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2530" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />4. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be made like him.<br />5. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he imagine himself to be wise.<br />-- Proverbs, 26</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2531" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ooh look, a contradiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now that he is gone, it might have been this sort of thing that he is thinking TAC says:<br />"For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward<br />not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence, but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But here is where I think that JA Escalante's distinction and my matter form analogy come in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2534" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I saw that. That, however, seems to operate at the level of principles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, this might be what you were saying too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2536" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is, the principles are more perfect than the rest of the science since they contain the whole science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2537" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes I said that earlier, about how theology carries or presupposes the truths of metaphysics principially within itself, but not in the form of articulate science</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2539" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should have broken up that VI quote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2540" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">clearly "full development" is being used by TAC in the Newmanian sense, and nowhere is it being asserted that without metaphysics theology is doomed to intrinsic imperfection</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2541" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could have added more to the comment count.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reason guided by God's grace is right reason and this can serve as a basis of Faith, is what Vat I says.<br />BTW, we wouldn't be a 3000 posts if you did not recognise that objections to TAC are morally and scientifically valid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2543" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T13:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^another fake goodbye</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2544" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"><sigh></p>
</li>
<li id="post_2545" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I agree, your questions are good and important. I just want you to use your reason and get beyond the questions once in a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i like to translate the word meno as "i am stuck". I wonder if its the origin of stick in the mud. Mud flinging stick in the mud. O tempora o mores!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2547" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have benefited greatly from thinking about this sort of question, but it just gets to be a little boring saying the same thing. At least you could bring to bear different arguments to obstinately hold your position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2548" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what are his good assertions?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2549" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'd agree that it is reason guided by God's grace that is right reason. That makes sense to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2550" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">me too Daniel. BUT i only get the reasoned side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I suppose it is only really one assertion of his. Scott says this:<br />"the college says that you need to study metaphysics because this is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This underscores the pedagogy of the college. It is a false and erroneous teaching method, because it produces flawed conclusions. It prodices flawed conclusions because, as the Church teaches, the sacred science perfects metaphysics."<br />I think that raises some good questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2552" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is that he has stated that same thing in response to nearly every argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When he doesn't do that he does: <br />"The Foundation of the Faith is assent to God's revealed Word. It is not a valid syllogism, Edward. You are misguided." <br />and<br />"Full development is the same thing as perfection. But metaphysics does not even contribute to the partial development of the sacred science. It might seem like this historically, but this would be revisionist. Sacred theology has always guided and perfected metaphysics. This is why you need to study more doctrine."<br />and<br />"Because the only reasonable explanation you maintain such false pretences is because you are an arrogant jerk of a misinformed Catholic."<br />etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">if he works at it, i see potential for a modern Zeno there. EDIT i only meant the prior post. The latter reveal teansy perhaps flaws in logic. Yowsers!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2555" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T13:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, we're just bored and modern life separates the individual into atomistic trolling units</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good questions buried in a heap of fallacies maybe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2557" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T13:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"no, we're just bored and modern life separates the individual into atomistic trolling units" tha't's what I've been thinking. Loneliness that isn't really helped by real contact with other people, and a desire for notifications. (I speak of myself here of course, unless others find it applies to them.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2558" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T13:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">they are excellent questions, but they never get beyond that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T13:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm STILL waiting for perfection (8128)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T13:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Catherine, I'm at work now, blowing it off</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2561" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-25T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-25T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or this: «It is with no less deceit, venerable brothers, that other enemies of divine revelation, with reckless and sacrilegious effrontery, want to import the doctrine of human progress into the Catholic religion. They extol it with the highest praise, as if religion itself were not of God but the work of men, or a philosophical discovery which can be perfected by human means. The charge which Tertullian justly made against the philosophers of his own time "who brought forward a Stoic and a Platonic and a Dialectical Christianity"[2] can very aptly apply to those men who rave so pitiably. Our holy religion was not invented by human reason, but was most mercifully revealed by God; therefore, one can quite easily understand that religion itself acquires all its power from the authority of God who made the revelation, and that it can never be arrived at or perfected by human reason. In order not to be deceived and go astray in a matter of such great importance, human reason should indeed carefully investigate the fact of divine revelation. Having done this, one would be definitely convinced that God has spoken and therefore would show Him rational obedience, as the Apostle very wisely teaches.[3] For who can possibly not know that all faith should be given to the words of God and that it is in the fullest agreement with reason itself to accept and strongly support doctrines which it has determined to have been revealed by God, who can neither deceive nor be deceived?»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pater i will respond to your much above post. Later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If TAC did not believe that sacred theology is doomed without metaphysics, and if it believed as the Church teaches that metaphysics is doomed without grace and revelation and the doctrinally imbued sacred science of the Church... Then why do they say that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology, and why do they not teach the principles of the Faith?<br />Clearly the founders were reactionary, and agenda and ideologically driven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2564" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T13:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some one should inform the real Scott Weinberg that this pb fellow, who definitely isn't SW, had been using a picture of Weinberg as his profile pic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2565" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T13:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Get out the bell, book and candle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2566" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T13:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, some time ago several of us attempted rational discourse with this SW fellow on the infinitely patient FerrierFB. JAson has it right. No point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2567" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no i never got that courtesy Edward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2568" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T13:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder what Matthew J. Peterson's Klout score is now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2569" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just want to give a late high five to Edward Langley for the Vatican 1 quote. (Only time I will ever do so too )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmm... Catherine Ryland do you see how he does things?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2571" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC says it because:<br />"Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for<br />on the one hand right reason<br />established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith<br />delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds. Hence, so far is the church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T13:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and because it is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T13:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WOULD someone list his better questions. I am at an impass guessing. please and only if u have time </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, if I could have a face to face with these 210 participants I would. It does not mean the dialogue is meaningless. It is important to hash this out, not that the college will change its curriculum, but maybe its students will have a more informed understanding of the flaws of their curriculum -- for they go beyond limitations and become flaws -- and better appreciation of the Catholic Faith. In the academic life, sacred theology -- based on what the Church teaches -- sets the soul free and is the completion of Catholic liberal education. <br />The quotation from Pater Edmund is good. Every Catholic student should think about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2575" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And he calls me arrogant?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2576" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You think that anything that TAC teaches or that we have been saying here contradicts the quote from Pater Edmund?!?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2577" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T14:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we should all meet up at a bar somewhere in DC and have a fistfight to resolve the dispute </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2578" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T14:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">... that is have a conversation over beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe Scott, you should find out who said the above quote by Pater Edmund and find out its proper context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2580" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This happens in the previous paragraph:<br />"Without doubt, nothing more insane than such a doctrine, nothing more impious or more opposed to reason itself could be devised. For although faith is above reason, no real disagreement or opposition can ever be found between them; this is because both of them come from the same greatest source of unchanging and eternal truth, God. They give such reciprocal help to each other that true reason shows, maintains and protects the truth of the faith, while faith frees reason from all errors and wondrously enlightens, strengthens and perfects reason with the knowledge of divine matters."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2581" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T14:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">@ 1000 in a day. Pausing to appreciate the geometric increase. (Is that cartesian or euclidean?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2582" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is Francois de Viete</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2583" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is a square-squared-cube</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2584" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that's why modern algebraic notation got popular, ever try to draw any of Viete's figures with a number larger than 3?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2585" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2586" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is hard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I tried 5 once and quickly gave up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, quote below states that faith perfects reason. This means, without faith, metaphysics is flawed. This does not mean that God gives TAC students grace so that they have perfect reason. I think you think this. This is effectively how TAC teaches. What this means is through a study of sacred theology, and the sacred science of the Church, and through an outlay of Her dogmas, a theological habit of mind is developed. This is liberal education. This is not what TAC proposes, because it does not teach sacred theology. And not teaching it, or allowing its students to understand how Her teachings operate, it moves ahead with a flawed metaphysics. This is self-evident in the principles of its Charter and in the holes in its curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">says you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2590" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T14:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">dont know Viete. I prefer now the hotdog and smiley face symbols long above mentioned. If it cant be done so i suspect its understandability.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2591" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">he's the founder of modern algebra. Pre-dates Descartes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2592" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T14:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, but he's not in the program, ergo he doesn't exist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">beautiful stuff... but x^4 is a "squared-square" x^5 is a "Squared-cube" and so on. You can draw it pretty easily with powers of 2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2594" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">THEY CUT VIETE!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2595" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">bastards. Perescott is right. TAC's curriculum is screwed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2596" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. Viete is in the program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2597" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Viete was there in 2012.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2598" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T14:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, I think you had the wrong tutor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2599" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, Daniel..... whew..... there is no way to study the fullness of Sacred Theology without Viete</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did Viette merge geometry and arithmetic? Or was that Descartes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2601" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Viete started it. Also nascent algebraic notation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he standardized using certain letters for constants, and others for variables</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2603" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what exactly is a Fideist? Aside from the obvious part. (Alex concluded that our friend was one a few days ago, but now I want some clarity as to what exactly that means and how the Church has responded)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, maybe the name sounds vaguely familiar. No, not really. I forget most things, and I wanted to make a Descartes joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2605" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T14:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh dear. I'm going to have to give this terrible thread up for lent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2606" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lent? I was going to try for advent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2607" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T14:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, it's a good thing lent is several months away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2608" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T14:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Holy moly, this thread is still going?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2609" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, you missed 2000 scintillating points of interest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T14:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah I bet. Is the troll dead yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2611" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Define "going"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, alive and well maybe 30 up from here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, currently recovering from Ed's Vatican I quote and smack down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2614" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T14:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">is that what votis refers to? Hmmm. . . disappearing papal decrees.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Nor do I seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe that I may understand. For this, too, I believe, that, unless I first believe, I shall not understand." -- St. Anselm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Magisterium cathedrae magistralis^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2617" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T15:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">JUST IN! Here's the official word. Absolutely no saints at TAC or Christendom. Not even mentioned. Because of our incessant bickering, we are left entirely out of the book of life. https://app.box.com/s/1561ypqh86kf3vq3mlpx<br />BC_Saints.jpg - File Shared from Box<br />app.box.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2618" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think we have a couple popes though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2619" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder how Peregrine gets along with Pope Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2620" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Saints!? Now who's trying to immanentize the eschaton......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2621" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Comments in the vertical axis, time (in seconds) in the horizontal axis:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2622" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks like exponential growth to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At this rate we'll hit 3,000 before 12 midnight tonight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2624" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T15:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">is past behavior a predictor of future success? Cause I've got Mass tonight at 7</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2625" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(73, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOW I remember Viete. He was less terrifying than the other blokes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2627" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought you just went yesterday.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The next power of two is 4096</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but is 4096-1 prime?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2630" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No: 4095 / 5 = 819 * 5</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2631" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">every 25th of the month there's a votive Mass in honor of the Divine Infant King at my parish</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it lacks the root of perfection....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2633" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T15:46:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Having read every comment on this thread so far, I am amazed at your guys' patience to argue to the same point over and over again to someone who you know won't listen. That said, he has provoked a number of good and informative comments from you guys that have made this thread (almost) worth the time spent on it. I admire your guys' patience; I get frustrated just reading it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">4095 = 3 * 3 * 5 * 7 * 13</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2635" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T15:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, you graph is the coolest thing I have yet seen on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">33550336 is the fifth.... that means 8191 is the next root of perfection</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2637" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T15:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And this thread can't end until...<br />http://youtu.be/SiMHTK15Pik<br />Its Over 9000!!! [Original Video and Audio]<br />The classic, its over 9000!!! video without anything extra.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2638" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T15:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So we've got some work to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-25T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-25T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, bit now I have posted the coolest thing on this thread that is about theology:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDmeqSzvIFs<br />Emo Philips - Golden gate bridge (1987, official sub ita)<br />Emo Philips racconta il tentativo di salvare un aspirante suicida sul Golden gate Bridge di San Francisco. Traduzione ufficiale dei ComedySubs (www.comedysub...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Anything is of faith in two ways; directly, where any truth comes to us principally as divinely taught, as the trinity and unity of God, the Incarnation of the Son, and the like; and concerning these truths a false opinion of itself involves heresy, especially if it be held obstinately. A thing is of faith, indirectly, if the denial of it involves as a consequence something against faith; as for instance if anyone said that Samuel was not the son of Elcana, for it follows that the divine Scripture would be false. Concerning such things anyone may have a false opinion without danger of heresy, before the matter has been considered or settled as involving consequences against faith, and particularly if no obstinacy be shown; whereas when it is manifest, and especially if the Church has decided that consequences follow against faith, then the error cannot be free from heresy. For this reason many things are now considered as heretical which were formerly not so considered, as their consequences are now more manifest." I.32 a.4 co.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, I have to run, Peregrine seems to have been out-Magisteriumed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order."<br />This is the Church's infallible teaching on the necessity of Revelation to know truths of the metaphysical order. <br />Now, some maintain that "natural theology" is necessary for the fullness of the sacred, and in so doing they provide instruction in metaphysics without knowledge of the sacred principles of revelation under the authority of the Church. <br />How foolish. This would be like teaching theology in a Catholic college without teaching the fullness of what the Church teaches! It would be like shooting an arrow without aim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2643" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T15:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just a word to the wise on all sides (and to add to the number of comments, especially repetitive ones). It makes your opponent seem far more benighted if he is the only one making ad hominem comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's the magisterial source of that, Peregrine? All I can find are quotations from Ott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Warren Carroll is probably a Saint. He tethered instruction to the fullness of the teaching Church, and has given many students great joy and purpose in their studies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T16:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">P.S. The above graphic is a JOKE! AND my claim there are no saints from our colleges is a joke too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(221, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't use Ott or Denzinger. The theological exegesis of doctrine is fascinating, and is often not conveyed in these sources. Doctrine comes from the life of the Church in Her sacred science. It is the most wonderful science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2648" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T16:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's why I asked where the quote was from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Thomas argues in favor of using ad hominem arguments, especially if your opponent is an unreasonable barbarian. (Why are the barbarians attacking Rome impervious to reason? Because they are barbarians.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll get it for you. I am on a Concall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The phrasing of that quote looks like something said ut in pluribus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For example why is it said to be "morally impossible" rather than just "impossible?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it says that because assent is moral. It is not just a factual proposition. Man's final end and goodness, all subjects of metaphysics, cannot be handled under metaphysics properly, without revelation. So it is a moral proposition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because it involves more than the intellect, but also the will?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's from Vat. I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2656" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Maximilian Nightingale" data-date="2014-08-25T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Maximilian Nightingale at 2014-08-25T16:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is still going on? I admire Sean Robertson for reading all the posts. I will not do the same. Mr. Scott is so odd... I'm not sure if you guys ever figured out what theology is, but in my experience TAC grads never have a hard time at theology in seminary. They certainly ask more questions than other students (sometimes without raising their hands), but this typically represents a willingness to understand. The most recent comments indicate that Vatican I was cited against the condemnable fideism/traditionalism which appears to be held by Peregrine, so this is thread is probably winding to a close.... Then again, he just said that he doesn't use Ott or Denzinger, so now I'm puzzled as to where he's getting his sources...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2657" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vatican I On Revelation:<br />It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason,<br />can, even in the present state of the human race, be known<br />by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and<br />with no intermingling of error.<br />[now here comes the moral part]<br />It is not because of this that one must hold revelation to be absolutely necessary; the reason is that God directed human beings to a supernatural end, that is a sharing in the good things of God that utterly surpasses the understanding of the human mind; indeed eye has not seen, neither has ear heard, nor has it come into our hearts to conceive what things God has prepared for those who love Him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maximilian, you seem verifiably odd yourself. I guess if your observation about seminary serves us all correctly, then all is well. Thank you for that insight. I do not hold to fideism. I embrace the role of metaphysics and reason in the life of the Church and in sacred theology, and in human anthopology. It's just that I give revelation and devotion its right place. Context & proportion is everything in education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2659" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T16:41:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have literally moved to a different country since this thread began.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just so everyone is clear, the above citation from Vat I means that WITHOUT revelation, you canNOT hold with firm certitude or without error things about God which fall within the scope of reason ((about His existence, Himself, His laws and will; ie. metaphysics or natural theology).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T16:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">right you are Mr. Bonaventure. But no one is claiming that you can, except you claiming that TAC claims that. It is a many-nested claim-a-thon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Michael, TAC is claiming that you need to proceed with metaphysics first in order for you to be able to obtain, later in life, a fully developed sacred theology. This is flawed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2663" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T16:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope nope nope. obtain is not the same as understand, study or any other process. You're setting up a straw man....again<br /><sigh></p>
</li>
<li id="post_2664" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T16:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, some wise person way up there suggested a thread drinking game. I vote we start laying down some rules.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2665" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's hard when most of my posting is at work. They frown on that sort of thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me tread lightly here, Michael, in good faith. TAC seems to be saying that you need to study metaphysics in order for you to understand sacred theology. This is evident in its Charter and curriculum. This is a flawed approach, because as the Church teaches, revelation in the sacred science is required for the perfection of metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2667" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">1) Every time Michael Beitia's last name is misspelled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">an ounce of tequila</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2669" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises:<br />1) TAC claims you need to study metaphysics to understand sacred theology<br />2) the Church teaches revelation in the sacred science is required for perfection in metaphysics<br />there is no conclusion that follows from these two things, least of all that TAC's method is flawed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2670" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T17:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">2) Every time JA Escalante quotes/threatens to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2671" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T17:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">3) Every time PB's argument is successfully refuted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2672" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T17:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are these like thimble size glasses and microsips. ...... cause otherwise the thread will die soon, as pb refuters pass out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2673" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">here it is:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2674" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pass out? Or die of alcohol poisoning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course my argument is conclusive. The church teaches the sacred science and revelation is necessary to establish an error free metaphysics. This is the case between any sapiential science and revelation and the deposit of Faith. The maxim is faith seeking understanding. But TAC does the opposite, in its curriculum and teaching. It teaches that you must learn metaphysics first, in order to be able to have a full sacred theology later. This is a flaw, because it only makes false assumptions about the Faith because it is using a flawed metaphysics. <br />See Dick run. Run Dick run!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2676" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^nope that's just your perpetual straw man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">id est: "have" is not the same as "learn"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2678" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:12:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">(takes drink)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2679" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T17:17:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty sure "Peregrine" is Matthew's sock puppet for Klout-raising purposes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2680" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T17:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come on, Matthew, admit it's you. No real person can be *that* unreasonable</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2681" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:18:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">updates!:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm thirsty JAson, whip out the Catholic Encyclopedia!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2683" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T17:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHAHA perfect</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC asserts you need to study metaphysics first, before sacred science, in order for you to be able to learn theology in its fullness later. <br />This is the opposite of what the Church teaches.<br />Game over.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2685" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T17:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been on vacation so I'm late to this party buuuuuuuuuut http://i1.kym-cdn.com/.../hey-guys-whats-going-on-thread.jpg<br />i1.kym-cdn.com<br />i1.kym-cdn.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2686" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-25T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-25T17:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">? Uh, we cover Thomas's adaptation of Aristotle in the Summa before we cover Aristotle's own metaphysics so... no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2687" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-25T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-25T17:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">About to go into class so... bye.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2688" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">here's what TAC teaches:<br />While, therefore, We hold that every word of wisdom, every useful thing by whomsoever discovered or planned, ought to be received with a willing and grateful mind, We exhort you, venerable brethren, in all earnestness to restore the golden wisdom of St. Thomas, and to spread it far and wide for the defense and beauty of the Catholic faith, for the good of society, and for the advantage of all the sciences. The wisdom of St. Thomas, We say; for if anything is taken up with too great subtlety by the Scholastic doctors, or too carelessly stated -- if there be anything that ill agrees with the discoveries of a later age, or, in a word, improbable in whatever way -- it does not enter Our mind to propose that for imitation to Our age. Let carefully selected teachers endeavor to implant the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas in the minds of students, and set forth clearly his solidity and excellence over others. Let the universities already founded or to be founded by you illustrate and defend this doctrine, and use it for the refutation of prevailing errors. But, lest the false for the true or the corrupt for the pure be drunk in, be ye watchful that the doctrine of Thomas be drawn from his own fountains, or at least from those rivulets which, derived from the very fount, have thus far flowed, according to the established agreement of learned men, pure and clear; be careful to guard the minds of youth from those which are said to flow thence, but in reality are gathered from strange and unwholesome streams.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha. That's funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">why, o trollish raptor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2691" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tom Malone" data-date="2014-08-25T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Malone at 2014-08-25T17:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This entire thread is one of several hundred instances that remind me of the following:<br />1) TAC would implode servers if they decided to do online courses<br />2) TAC'ers are weirdly obsessed with Facebook (saying vs doing, probably)<br />3) I hate TAC'ers on Facebook most of the time (myself included. It's a spiritual self-loathing of sorts.)<br />4) I don't hate TAC'ers when all they contribute is a funny image (Tim Cantu, mad props.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2692" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T17:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you Tom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2693" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T17:47:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">how is this whole thread NOT a funny image</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2694" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T17:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^pretty deep when you think about it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm with you Escalante. I waffle between being totally amused, and trying to be serious. The thread is, however, a joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2696" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T17:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">over 2800!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T17:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, Pater Edmund. That first link is quite a lengthy dispute. But I will take a looksee. However, I do not think you responded to my argument. You merely provided an example. That is, you did not addresses the questions and statements I made.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2698" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T17:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And to JA Escalante and others, I did send something off to Pater, yesterday, but am waiting for his response. . . . I figure there's no rush and the issue can be unburied again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2699" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T17:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">just keep Pater away from the tinder and matches and I'm sure there can be a conversation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">gotcha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2702" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T17:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I miss the old days of digging up bones and pronouncing post mortem excommunication myself. It</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2703" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T17:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">...It's so "incarnational." (There is still time. Nothing infallible yet.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2704" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_2705" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:01:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">4) A White Russian every time "magisterium" is mentioned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2706" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">^"Get alcohol poisoning with this one weird trick!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2707" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael will have a few keyboarders hospitalized with one of his sentences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2708" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would y'all most like to add to TAC curriculum if you could? One author/reading/topic only.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pascendi </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2710" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Sacred Theology"=shot of jäger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't really know the curriculum; I just like to criticize it. But I have a better idea reading this thread </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2712" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Tao te Ching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Syllabus/syllabus of errors=vodka Jell-O shot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan please tell me you're serious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2715" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course I am!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2716" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a great text!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2717" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">of the many topics we covered, I most wished we had covered sacred theology. so I guess that would be my answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">indeed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2719" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would add Goethe's Farbenlehre</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2720" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"This thread reflects the views of its eternal self in time only by its operation - and is in no way affiliated with or representative of Thomas Aquinas College." You are now free to bask in its glory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2721" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I'm being serious, the Great Gatsby. I'm also not much of a thinker, so it probably doesn't fit in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No undergraduate Catholic institution in America limits the role of revelation in sapiential philosophy more than Thomas Aquinas College. It's not even close. <br />So behold the titles of the seniors theses, and weep for their unemployability, and pray that at least a couple of them might be hired by the college to tutor; then marvel if any of these men of leisure can pay off their loans.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2723" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no interest in engaging the broader point, but the notion that it's impossible to pay off the massive debt load TAC saddles you with is laughable. If you take out the maximum in TAC loans, the standard 10-year repayment plan costs less than $200 a month.<br />But I must return to reveling in my unemployability.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2724" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a discussion with my Rhetoric students on how to figure out if you're arguing with a fanatic. It's pretty simple. You just ask him "What would it take to change your mind?"<br />For as Churchill said, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Nothing will ever change PB's mind. At this point, then, the only use in continuing to argue is for the sake of anyone possessing reason who could be in danger of falling sway to his brand of lunacy. Rational dialogue with a fanatic is a losing strategy. Even worse, you will always begin to take on the same characteristics as the fanatic, and his methods will begin to rub off on you.<br />The truth is that a fanatic is truly unable to stop. A mania compels him, and that mania can never be sufficiently clarified or satisfied.<br />Voltaire once had an argument with a Quaker over whether it made sense for them to call themselves Christians when they do not practice baptism. His conclusion: “I took care not to dispute anything he said, for there’s no arguing with an Enthusiast. Better not take it into one’s head to tell a lover the faults of his mistress, or a litigant the weakness of his cause — or to talk sense to a fanatic. And so I went on to other questions.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More literature I think would be in order. It's a complaint I've heard. And probably more politics / ethics from what I've heard. But for specific books I would have to look through the curriculum. (The Great Gatsby would not be on my list.) A poetry class including Dryden instead. How about a poetry memorization class (a la John Senior and IHS)? A poetry writing class? .......... just trying to spark others' thoughts here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2726" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just getting out of signing up at HR and getting my ID card at the top ten national liberal arts college where I teach this semester. <br />Now I gotta go back to my place and work on my other jobs - I mean, signing up for unemployment....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I fully admit that Gatsby does not belong in the curriculum; I just like it. This is why I'll never have any role in setting curriculum at, well, any place of higher education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2728" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really, the debt load at TAC is lower than almost any other liberal arts college in America - and in the top 100 it's usually one of the cheapest and best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2729" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-25T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-25T18:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/aVZgT.gif[/IMG]<br />i.imgur.com<br />i.imgur.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2730" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC's financial aid is honestly unbelievably good, but because it's unorthodox (when compared to mainstream financial aid) it has a reputation as stingy. Which is unfortunate, because in my experience, nothing could be further from the truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we need a new president. This unemployment thing is unacceptable.<br />And I'll never change my mind about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2732" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-25T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-25T18:23:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brainstorm: as a Catholic alternative to the Ice Bucket challenge, people have to come here and "debate" The Peregrine for a couple of rounds or else donate a hundred bucks to charity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2733" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim - the Great Gatsby is absolutely defensible for inclusion in a Great Books program. I would include it. It even has "Great" in the title. <br />I would add A Confederacy of Dunces, actually. Funniest book ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^so good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2735" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I now feel remarkably vindicated in this opinion, Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But doesn't everyone at TAC read the Confederacy anyway?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2737" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John: Pascendi is on the curriculum already</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Choice 2: "The Double Helix" by Watson and Crick.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - If they don't, they ought to</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2740" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just had to get that in the first post, Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2741" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Matthew, it depends on what you're replacing. I'd revamp lab, top to bottom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2742" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is a (distilled and abridged) story that reminds me of this thread:<br />I'm with my family in Fort Collins, CO. We're taking the opportunity to enjoy the delightful Old Town district and walking around it a lot. Fort Collins being a hippie town, we were accosted (politely) by a Greenpeace activist who wanted to save the rainforests. I listened to his speech, only interrupting to ask which rainforests he wanted to save because I didn't like some of them (which really threw him for a loop). At the end of the speech when he asked us for a small donation and to become members, I said "No, I don't want to." When pressed for a reason, and when he gave me more good reasons to join, I said "Yeah, but I don't want to.", and politely went on my way. I have a new hobby; trolling sidewalk activists. And it reminds me of this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2743" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC and the like are steals compared to other places that are 50-60k a year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2744" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to add Camus. The Stranger if y'all are hung up on fiction, I prefer The Rebel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2745" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I vote strongly against adding more fiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aww Tim you shouldn't; they're just kids and it's a shite job.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2747" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks Megan, I tend to agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2748" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, I was polite and listened to him, but seriously, I'm not joining greenpeace or any other organization because an unwashed guy on a sidewalk told me I should.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2749" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Stouffer" data-date="2014-08-25T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Stouffer at 2014-08-25T18:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">one book, post-graduation, amongst the many I have read, that really stands out is http://www.amazon.com/Progra.../dp/B000GCFBP6/ref=sr_1_10...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2750" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">also, as someone firmly in denial about his age, I reject the contention that I am not just a kid myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Other suggestions: Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning," and Graham Greene's "The Power and the Glory."<br />I vote more fiction. But I understand not wanting it. TAC doesn't do too well with fiction, literature, or poetry in general.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2752" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:29:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan: what if we stipulate that whatever fiction is added will be added at the expense of Faerie Queene?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there's a strong case to replace some of soph seminar. Take out the Faerie Queene (sorry Pi-Pi) and stick in ...... .anything? Livy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just Part II, Tim - I liked Part I </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2755" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just of the opinion that the old literature is so vastly superior, that if you spend enough time with the old, you will have no trouble with the recent stuff on your own. More time on the ancients (through Renaissance) and your all good. .. ..... more than that, I really like fewer and fewer of the new productions. They don't make the cut.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My gosh. Stick in Cormac McCarthy in place of the Faerie Queene. Stick in ROWLING!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2757" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh come on guys don't pick on Spenser</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harry Potter for TAC Curriculum!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spenser sucked</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2760" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is this Spenser-hatred, fear of a Protestant planet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2761" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pietta tried for like two hours to explain to me why it is in the program. I glazed over ....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If we want Renaissance English stuff, maybe Sidney's Defense of Poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it probably has to do with modern men's incapacity for allegory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, re: your poetry suggestion. I found it troublesome that after encounters only with epic poetry and some Shakespearean sonnets, seniors were expected to have a productive conversation about The Wasteland, one of the most difficult (if magnificent) poems ever written. This when barely anyone even knew what alliteration was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">right, Isak. . . . for myself I've never been able to get into Eliot. But it doesn't matter. I have too many great ones to spend time on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2766" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T18:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Upping the heresy quotient: James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or with modern man's distaste for overblown Renaissance poetry. Spenser is like a literary fruitcake with LOTS of dried fruit and LOTS of nuts. Just cuz it's traditional, doesn't make it good. Please pass the crème brulee and the Yeats!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Passage to India?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2769" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel - SO MUCH YES.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2770" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CHAUCER (do ya'll read him? He is my favorite English poet = GOAT)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank God no one said any C.S. Lewis. I need to keep my dinner down</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2772" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or maybe Ulysses? It would provide a nice book-end to the Odyssey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spenser is theology for goodnesss' sake</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. A poetry unit would be ok. The Four Quartets. Some Donne. Some Yeats. Some R. P. Warren. Mmmmm...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2775" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But...do you guys think that the inclusion of Tolkien in the Great Books canon is imminent? I know some who do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, Chaucer's Tales in place of Spencer ALL DAY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2777" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetry and lit seminars made me fearful and depressed for the state of other souls. It was oddly voyeuristic, except you didn't want to see the uncouth ig'nance that was revealed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think TAC students would spontaneously combust if they had to try to read Ulysses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2779" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. Def. more. literature. then. Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2780" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^this^ (up one)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2781" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2782" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We did Chaucer, but more would have been great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2783" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">for one thing, literature is much harder to discuss that propositions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many people here have seen Moneyball? Is More Literature the new market inefficiency?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">another thing, it's longer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's also much easier to read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2787" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hardly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah and if Yeats, then "Crazy Jane and the Bishop"...see how that would fly at TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2789" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">literature is not easier to read than treatises</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2790" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BEOWULF!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2791" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">most people read literature very badly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2793" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beowulf makes sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2794" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's largely because they have done insufficient philosophy or theology or history or all three.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer Icelandic sagas. Could I get a few votes for Egil's Saga?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">vote</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2797" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T18:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm definitely a fanatic, but I liked reading the Faerie Queen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Beowulf is not as good (I love it don't get me wrong). But y'all need more readable ENGLISH, especially poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2799" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah Catherine but you think metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology sooooooo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2800" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Howl.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but seriously imagine trying to discuss the The Alexandria Quartet in seminar at TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chaucer's Middle English is very easy to pick up in a week.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2803" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I don't ever want to spend two hours talking about poetry with a bunch of twenty-year olds (You kids get off my lawn!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2804" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it would be utter ruin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2805" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">or imagine discussing Finnegan's Wake with a bunch of 17 year old homeschoolers. UTTER RUIN</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2806" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kerouac - !!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2807" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">almost as bad as discussing it with critical theorists.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kerouac is better to listen to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2809" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Multi-media! The return and rise of literature as spoken! The modern Homer!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2810" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think, generally... No, I won't go there. That would be fanatical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2811" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Erotokritos. Still chanted every day all over Greece, and almost totally unknown in the West. And did Megan just call Kerouac the modern Homer for reals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most students at TAC have to spend too much energy assenting to particular tenants that are far more limiting than the universal freedoms which the Catholic Faith has to offer. When they graduate, a lot of times they don't know how to believe and go with the flow. They don't know how to think outside of any box. There are exceptions to this rule, but go ahead and dispute me. I am fanatical about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2813" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-25T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-25T18:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">THREE THOUSAND WITHIN THE HOUR PEOPLE!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZxHAZChcYU<br />Picard - Make It So</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2814" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, it's "tenets"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2815" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:50:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey - shouldn't TAC be paying ME for this thread, as the headline is a gigantic advert for them?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not "tenants"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2817" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it is continually in everyone's face?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2818" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">might result in a drop in admissions though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2819" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:51:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Assenting to tenants sounds ... prostitutional...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2820" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-25T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-25T18:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">SAY WHAT YOU WILL ABOUT THE TENETS OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM. AT LEAST IT'S AN ETHOS.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2821" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would only take 10% and distribute the rest weekly -proportionally to top commentators.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2822" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T18:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then you could all use that money to help pay student loans, thus renewing the eternal return - the Neverending Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there were a contemporary Virgil or Homer, what form would he write in? What would he write about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there couldnt be a contemporary Homer; cf Lewis on primary and secondary epic in "Preface to Paradise Lost"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My word, thank you, I meant tenets.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there could be a contemporary Virgil; Tolkien *might* be something like it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2827" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T18:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"There are exceptions to this rule, but go ahead and dispute me."<br />In that case, the exceptions to this rule are essentially every graduate of TAC I know personally. But as they say, quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2828" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-25T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-25T18:55:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">"If there were a contemporary Virgil or Homer, what form would he write in? What would he write about?"<br />Sing, O muse, of the rage of Peregrine, that brought countless comments upon the book of faces...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would he write about Hobits?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sing of facebook and a man of faces... And then we could write about how Juno hates America and the founders. But what form would it take?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">60 more comments to the mark</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2832" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T18:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So back to the question about what should be added to the curriculum... What about Bonaventure?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2833" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T18:59:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">so we stopped talking about proposed additions? Damn this moves fast. I would suggest more modern philosophy, but not too modern so as not to scare anybody. I and Thou by Buber? <br />Discipline and Punish be Foucalt. then I could show my campusing was unjust</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2834" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T18:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i pushed for Bonaventure when I was there. No luck</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I for one say quod gratis asserritur, gratis negatur all the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2836" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Herreid" data-date="2014-08-25T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Herreid at 2014-08-25T19:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The Monster at the End of this Book" is worth a seminar, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2837" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the monster at the end of this thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2838" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T19:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">FOUCAULT. YES!!!!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At TAC, is it big news when the curriculum changes a little?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2840" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes. it is big news. I lucked out and missed TS Eliot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">after my time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2842" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T19:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things I Am Learning Today: I am remarkably poorly read compared to you people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2843" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I missed out on one of my favs, Heidegger, but we used to do private seminars for that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought we read the Wasteland while we were there... did we not?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What form would great epic poem take today?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope, just talked about it ad nauseum with Matthew Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2847" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-25T19:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Tupac.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2848" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Foucault would be great and useful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2849" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:02:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">50shades of grey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T19:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The great epic form of today = Star Wars</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">uh, no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2852" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's settled then, Foucalt. When Can I expect my check, Peterson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2853" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T19:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I was kidding on Star Wars... I do think that film as literature needs to get more respect, though.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2854" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">only if Peter Jackson will drink a cup of bleach</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no you did not read,<br />the shadow under the red rock,<br />come here under the shadow of the red rock,<br />Twit twit<br />Jug Jug</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no I read it a million times. Just not suffering through a 2 hour seminar on it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2857" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">now there's a thought. Why not assign films.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2858" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T19:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shakespeare today would be directing films. And the poets would be rocking out in Indie bands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2859" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2860" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeats was right, the death of modern poetry is its severance from music</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2861" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">as long as we could watch Trollhunter<br />http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740707/<br />Trollhunter (2010)<br />www.imdb.com<br />Directed by André Øvredal. With Otto Jespersen, Robert Stoltenberg, Knut Nærum, Glenn Erland Tosterud. A group of students investigates a series of mysterious bear killings, but learns that there are much more dangerous things going on. They start to follow a mysterious hunter, learning that he is a…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2862" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Darn, I thought you were serious about Star Wars. I am actually watching it right now with David and Jack. They are in the giant trash compactor as we speak. It is an epic with a simple structure. We could right one about the war with al quada and the extremists. This is an old war.<br />But what metre should it take? What form should the words take?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2863" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">magisterium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">off to Mass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the great poets would be in Indie bands. Every great age has poets, except ours, but we live in the greatest age. Why is that? Do we not need poets? Are they really rocking out like men of leisure in India bands?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Donne looks a lot like Jack White, fwiw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder what form the words would take? Would it be hexameter with no rhyme scheme?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's a big modernist optical illusion which forbids us to see Vladimir Vysotsky or George Brassens as great poets</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pray for us, Michael!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and we forget that Yeats chanted his poems with a bowed psaltery by preference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think great poets cannot hide behind contemporaneous excuses. They rise like corks. What form would they write in today. If they still wrote epics. Would it have rhyme? I wonder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2872" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tolkien definitely wrote a "secondary epic". Whether it is the great one of our time is hard to say</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2873" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not about the world though, or America or the rise of a nation. It's just about Hobbits. It's shear fantasy, unless it's an analogy about WWI or Armagedon or something? Is it about any historical event, or is it just about the struggle between good and evil? Just wondering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a totally fair question</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2875" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the great epic so-called would have to be a novel form but full of poetic form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2876" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">thats what the LOTR is!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and what Lewis calls "secondary epic"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2878" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and to answer yr question, it's about the inner structure of political order and how one relates to the heroic past in order to be virtuous in the present</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2879" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and "hobbits" are the modern middle class, petit-bourgeoisie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2880" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T19:35:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"or imagine discussing Finnegan's Wake with a bunch of 17 year old homeschoolers" --the Old Testament was bad enough. At least one person had to have circumcision explained to them, or so I hear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2881" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">at least one person in my seminar had to have explained to them what Dido and Aeneas were up to in the cave</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's circumcision? Please explain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2883" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">after someone spent nearly 30 min attempting suggestive circumlocution</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2884" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought Hobbits were the shrinking middle class caught in class warfare between the elves and the orcs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha that's actually not far from the truth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2886" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about throwing some Chesterton into senior seminar? I'm just not sure how discussable that would be. Maybe it would depend whether it was his fiction or non-fiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2887" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chesterton's play is good. It is called Magic. I wrote a thesis about it. He uses a unique kind of discovery in it. His discovery is supernatural as the classical Greek discovery is like nature. Chesterton was really a playwright, but didn't know it. He only wrote one play. At least that was my theory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2888" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T19:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ I think that's plausible, actually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2889" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T19:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that could make some sense. At the very least, I've always thought that Chesterton was a poet who happened to write a lot of prose, while Lewis (for example) was a prose writer who happened to write some poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">His dramatic discovery/reversal was the best technique ever. He was very gifted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2891" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-25T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-25T20:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">3,000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2892" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-25T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T20:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say more about it, Peregrine. I admit I never liked the "discovery" in the Fr Brown stories, seemed always too telepathic and irrational</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-25T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-25T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DAMMIT!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-25T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you miss 3000?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2895" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T20:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree. The senery and the actors apparently had a good effect on him. They drew him in. His play is more elegant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2896" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T20:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Fourth Millenium must be Joachim of Fiore's Age of the Holy Spirit -- JA and Peregrine are agreeing on something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2897" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T20:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The play is built around one central change/discovery. It is a story about a love and a marriage. The woman is seduced by a conjurer. There are two forces working in the plot. GKC worked from a literary theory called the mystical minimum of gratitude. This was a constant theory that he applied. The tiniest particple of positive grace can overwhelm a universe of darkness. The Christian narrative uses this discovery. Why was God born in a stable. This is a mystical minimum. Our hearts are wired to respond in gratitude to this discovery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2898" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T20:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC has too much literature, at least, senior seminar does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T20:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the play Magic, Chesterton orchestrates this kind of discovery. He uses two lights, one red one blue, for this discovery. The discovery has two parts: the diminishment of evil and the increase of gratitude. So it is a different kind of discovery. There's more to it, and there's only one in the play. He liked hanging out with the actors, and he liked how it was live. But he withdrew from it, probably because theater is like what St. Francis de Sales says about dancing, and GKC was very virtuous. He was no George Bernard Shaw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2900" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-25T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-25T20:35:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel. You sadden me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2901" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T20:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine Bonaventure - JA Escalante - this GKC discussion reminds me of one of my favorite poems about Shakespeare, and the fact that few know what they are actually good at, or what they are here for:<br />http://donmarquis.com/literature?pp=656<br />Literature | DonMarquis.com<br />donmarquis.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That parrot sure knows his Shakespeare! Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2903" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T20:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19094/19094-h/19094-h.htm<br />The Project Gutenberg eBook of Magic, by G.K. Chesterton.<br />www.gutenberg.org<br />G.P. PUTNAM'S SONS NEW YORK AND LONDON The Knickerbocker Press 1913 , 1913 BY G.K. CHESTERTON The Knickerbocker Press, New York play was presented under the management of Kenelm Foss at The Little Theatre, London, on November 7, 1913, with the following cast: : A plantation of thin young trees, in a…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-25T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">GKC's "The Everlasting Man" or "Orthodoxy"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-25T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or "The Ballad of the White Horse"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Regarding the comments about great modern poets - well, they're still doing their thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2907" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Bonaventure's Itinerarium or De Reductione Artium ad Theologiam should be in the curriculum. Also, it'd be kinda neat to have read some Boccaccio or some such before reading Dante and Cervantes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2908" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:13:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, generally I'm on Escalante's side: there's already too much literature in the curriculum, there should be more medieval philosophy and more math and science: something by Cantor or Hilbert perhaps or perhaps just spending more time on Dedekind and Lobachevsky. (Maybe a semester of Set theory and symbolic logic and a semester of non-Euclidean geometry instead of the current senior math program? That would definitely help grad students out).<br />Also, one of my discoveries at grad school is that analytic philosophy is generally much more interesting than contemporary Thomism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak who are these great poets doing their thing today, and what form and meter are they using?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2910" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I never appreciated T.S. Eliot until I listened to recordings of him reading his own poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2911" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">More time for learning about beekeeping and vinetending should take place senior year. Students need more practical time to keep them in reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2912" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">They should beef up the math curriculum, so we could say something like "TAC provides the equivalent of a triple major in Theology, Philosophy and Mathematics"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T21:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Work Study is 13 hours of practical time a week.... Unless you are in the parcel room . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Were there any noteworthy theses on literature this year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm an unemployable grad who had a real job throughout the four years he was in college, as well as a publication in a peer reviewed journal.<br />http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2916" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">More doctrine, and dogmatic theology freshman year, but I know we are all in agreement with that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Anthony Crifasi" data-date="2014-08-25T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anthony Crifasi at 2014-08-25T21:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.ubergizmo.com/.../chart-shows-how-many.../<br />Chart Shows How Many Minutes The World Spends Looking At Screens<br />www.ubergizmo.com<br />We all love our gadgets, that’s for sure, but exactly how much time do we spend looking at them? After all we can be entertained by our computers,...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T21:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok we can't just add more course work. So I'm all for just fixing up math and sciences, which is what the college is working on too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2919" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also think that throwing in some computer science might be worthwhile: there's some really fascinating research in algorithms which could potentially complement one's thought about the interior senses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, just so I keep up good appearances with your wife. . . Shouldn't you be working on your Thesis? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_2921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a great start Ed. Now you need to follow it up with a Broadway musical. The trouble with work is you sometimes need to move. I had to go to DC for my first job. I got kicked around for a few years, then finally landed in a career path as a speechwriter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2922" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, computer programming is the apotheosis of symbolic thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is apotheosis a kind of herbal tea?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think there's too much literature - I just think what's there isn't done properly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But other than that I agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2926" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">DC is awful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://lmgtfy.com/?q=apotheosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2928" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">DC is awesome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2929" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:30:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Realistically, there should be some writing classes in the program. But I've been accused of being too pragmatic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2930" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T21:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was wondering when you would make an appearance, Clay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2931" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or just more writing ... But that would be more work... And I'm not a fan of that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2933" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I commented earlier about the crap-flinging. I guess this counts more as a substantive contribution though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2934" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And how could I stay away from a thread where you were in it, sir Isak?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DC is kind of awful now. It was fun under Bush.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't in it, haha. I left it behind and it returned into my life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2937" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree. Batman _Arkham Asylum_ was a fantastic graphic novel, but DC doesn't make them like that anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-25T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DC was awful under Bush. They moved the 3 police forces downtown to protect against "terrorism" and those of us who lived outside the downtown area all got mugged. My house was also set on fire by an arsonist in 2003 (same year I was mugged).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2939" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T21:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">once in, there is no exit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant DC, not the local government.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2941" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I meant the Comic book creator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2942" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T21:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, I forced my senior seminar to listen to a recording of Elliot reading the Waste Land. I think the tutor agreed on the condition that we stay late to make up the lost discussion time. Needless to say, I was quite popular with my classmates, as Samantha Cohoe can attest!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our tutor made us read What the Thunder Said aloud.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2944" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our tutor made us walk uphill in the snow, both ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2945" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry you got mugged and about your home.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We never had tutors are Christendom. We only had professors. They made us wake up half an hour before we went to bed to read Denzinger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2947" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Were those intentional?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nevah!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2949" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I just - Either that was a jab at Christendom or it wasn't. Sorry, I'm lost.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2950" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T21:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, yes. Intentional. Sorry, it was I who was lost. You know, back in 1854, Christendom College was preparing to grant federal loans, but day two at Gettysburg didn't go the way they planned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2951" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-25T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-25T21:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The subject/verb thing was intentional? Pretty slick lol.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2952" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-25T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-25T21:54:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">DC is awful.....Heck I committed a felony the instant I entered it without knowing it!<br />You guys are all insane. Here I had through of an explanation of assent of intellect and will, versus assent of faith, just to find that lost by 1000 comments in between.....<br />This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people starting commenting not knowing how it'd go, they'll ending up commenting orever just because this is the thread that never ends....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You might as well post it, Josh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2954" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-25T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-25T21:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh if you say I am insane for reading and commenting on it...well I already know I am crazy...I expected better of some of you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2955" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-25T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-25T22:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well the rest of us are not really better... We are all still here or keep coming back...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2956" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T22:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I go to Mass, the thread goes to hell. Stay on topic, peoples! (and better math/science is priority #1, followed by getting rid of some of the literature. But they should add No Exit by Sartre. it describes the dorms pretty well)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2957" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T22:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the primary topic at the moment is getting to 4000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2958" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-25T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-25T22:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will concede that was fun, Joel, if you will concede that it was totally cool when I kept our Goethe seminar going the full two hours even though everyone else was in a pizza coma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2959" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T22:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's right! Did we have that one in St. Pat's/the old 400 dorms? I vaguely recall it being there though that wasn't the usual classroom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yes, I'll happily concede that Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2961" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-25T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-25T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And do you vaguely recall berating me afterwards? Ironic, coming from the guy who made us all stay *late* to listen to Elliot. ; )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2962" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-25T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-25T22:13:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Alrighty then. It is analogous to natural reason. Remember Aquinas divides the works of Aristotle in several ways. One distinction is between reason that produces certain knowledge (prior and posterior analytics), another produces opinion (Topics), another suspicion (rhetoric) and another a certain inclination through fittingness (Poetics)<br />The first works with necessary arguments (valid and sound syllogisms). The next gives an arguments that wholly declines the mind to one side of a contradiction, but leaving the either side as still possible, just not reasonably held (with the evidence at hand). The next declines the intellect to one side, but not completely, by making it more probable. The last inclines to one side through a certain beauty.<br />Now the assent of faith is like to the first, in that there is certitude and an affirmation of necessity. But assent of intellect and will does not exclude the possibility of it being wrong, but does mean that the strength of authority for the position calls for an affirmation that totally declines to one side of the contradiction.<br />It is analogous to a regular person accepting the consensus of biologists about certain biological theories. It is reasonable, and necessary, to trust experts. While also admitting an outside possibility of them being wrong here.<br />Likewise, when the pope or the bishops teach with authority, but not definitively, that is strength enough, not to exclude the possibility of another side, but to produce opinion and grant moral certitude (you can act safely on it) and renders it normally unreasonable to deny it (as it is absurd for someone who never studied that much math to dismiss non Euclidean geometries)<br />Now it is possible that an individual, who is well learned and studied is persuaded that such a pronouncement is false. He needs to ask himself, how competent he is on the subject... and then, if he cannot but disagree, in that rare instance assent of mind and intellect is not owed, but risk of scandal should prevent public disagreement. Outside of that rare instance, one gives internal assent, but as to an opinion. Obviously the maisterium of the pope supercedes that of a local bishop, etc. And there is the practical difficulty in determining what the Church permits for free discussion, and what is not.<br />If the CCC be considered an act of the magisterium, then so was the Roman Catechism. But they contradict each other on substantial points. At some point the majority of theologians rejected the Roman Catechism's teaching on holy orders, in spite of what appears as an act of the authentic magisterium....in a very real way theologians have relied on tacit consent to such debates...in our day of not condemning outright error, it makes it very difficult to assume "no censure" = tacit approval. But that is kind of how it goes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2963" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-25T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-25T22:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me? Berating someone? Surely not!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2964" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-25T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-25T22:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I miss senior seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2965" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T22:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">hah you whippersnappers. I wrote the book on TAC berating. Also set the record for longest coffee cup toss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2966" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-25T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-25T22:24:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The world record for a FB thread is 584,444 comments....we can do it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2968" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Thomas Quackenbush" data-date="2014-08-25T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-25T22:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would only take about seven years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Thomas Quackenbush" data-date="2014-08-25T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-25T22:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">At this rate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2970" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-25T22:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can speed that up...post padding is an art</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Welcome back, Michael, thanks for your prayers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone at TAC ever written a thesis on the theory of evolution. It seems to me man came from dust, not from an ape-like creature. Mutation is a kind of evolution, but one thing cannot evolve into another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2973" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-25T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-25T22:36:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am leaving, but I just want to say how much I love and value what my alma gave me. I love reading those thesis titles. And sure, there's stuff to critique and even criticize. But it's great to know the people I know from going to TAC, and to have learned what we learned there. Haters gonna hate. But lovers gonna love, too. And thank God for that place and all it did for us. It was good for me --and so were you, my classmates. Goodnight, good people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right now, Everything is happening at the same moment. Good night, moon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2975" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T22:38:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB why is your only concern about form and meter?<br />Who are the great poets? Gee I don't know, maybe try Christian Wiman, B.H. Fairchild, Wendell Berry, Ted Kooser, Maurice Manning, Mary Karr, Mary Szybist, Tomas Transtromer, Robert Hass, Philip Schultz, Charles Wright, W.S. Merwin, or Derek Walcott. Or if you are okay with the recently deceased, Czeslaw Milosz, Wislawa Szymborska, Philip Levine - or how about Seamus Heaney, who died last year?<br />If you can't take your poetry straight and need it cut with the sweet traditional forms, try Dana Gioia, Richard WIlbur, or Timothy Steele. Recently deceased formalist poet Howard Nemerov is also excellent.<br />This age is blessed with an embarrassment of poetic riches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2976" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T22:45:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas, it would be shorter, the post count is growing exponentially</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. There be ways to continue that exponential growth. There is a method for burying trolls that hasnt been attempted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-25T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dmx4pRUpnk...<br />Brian Eno "Everything Merges With The Night"<br />From ANOTHER GREEN WORLD © 1975 EG Records Ltd</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T22:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T22:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please share it, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well one way is to attempt to tell the monster at the end of the book in the present context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2981" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T22:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is no end and a troll in the middle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, tell the monster what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm afraid I don't follow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2984" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it doesnt work for me because he's an invisible troll. I have plot details to finish up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2985" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak!?!?! I forgot about Milosz. "The Captive Mind" would work in senior seminar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael!?!?! Yes it would.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But one can run away from and bury trolls in threads.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry I just got excited....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2990" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously though, anyone bemoaning a lack of great poets today is just crying for the bygone days without looking up to see the scenery in front of him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps we have good poets, I doubt we have great ones.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What makes you say that, Ed? I'd welcome your opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe we'd have to clarify what we mean by "great."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2994" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw you unlike my comment John What made you waver?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2995" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really don't have enough experience to have a solid opinion. But I tend to find today's formless poetry trite.<br />My appreciation of Eliot stems from discovering that he has more form than meets the eye. (Especially once Mr. Nieto introduced me to Hopkin's notion of Sprung Meter)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2996" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the word great</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2997" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ash Wednesday, for example, nearly always has five stresses on a line, even if it's unstressed syllables don't match the classical classes of meter. Hopkin's poetry is similar: he does weird things with accent, but he almost always writes pentametert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would agree that formless poetry is trite. But I would not agree that the poets I consider the current "best" write formlessly. Hold on a sec</p>
</li>
<li id="post_2999" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-25T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-25T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">going to bed now, but just wanted to thank Isak for the list, I have been wondering about modern poetry recently but didn't know where to start.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3000" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, German poetry is amazing, 'specially Goethe, Schiller and Heine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3001" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's Christian Wiman's "Every Riven Thing:"<br />God goes, belonging to every riven thing he's made<br />sing his being simply by being<br />the thing it is:<br />stone and tree and sky,<br />man who sees and sings and wonders why<br />God goes. Belonging, to every riven thing he's made,<br />means a storm of peace.<br />Think of the atoms inside the stone.<br />Think of the man who sits alone<br />trying to will himself into a stillness where<br />God goes belonging. To every riven thing he's made<br />there is given one shade<br />shaped exactly to the thing itself:<br />under the tree a darker tree;<br />under the man the only man to see<br />God goes belonging to every riven thing. He's made<br />the things that bring him near,<br />made the mind that makes him go.<br />A part of what man knows,<br />apart from what man knows,<br />God goes belonging to every riven thing he's made.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3002" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didnt really appreciate poetry until i taught it, and meter is important as well as substance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another way of saying what I'm saying, I think, is that we may have many poets like Service, Longfellow and Poe, but I haven't found any Shakespeares.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Every Riven Thing" is a brand new form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, if that's what you mean, I think I can agree with that. But that's because Shakespeare is beyond great, as is Dante. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think we even have a Donne or Hopkins</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed, John - but it's only one of many tools in the poet's toolbox.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(At least, Hopkins at his best)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">American literature is really bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3010" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />THE world is charged with the grandeur of God.<br />It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;<br />It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil<br />Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?<br />Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;<br />And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;<br />And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil<br />Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.<br />And for all this, nature is never spent;<br />There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;<br />And though the last lights off the black West went<br />Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs --<br />Because the Holy Ghost over the bent<br />World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i like Irving. . . . and . . . ok i admit i stopped reading it. And i probably read less poetry than Edward. I am just always disappointed. (O Conner is ok).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can anyone say "American literature is really bad?" I really want to know!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I find Flannery O'Connor pointless.<br />Melville is long-winded<br />But I love Twain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Melville is good. But i am cooling on Twain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3015" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Graham Greene, Kurt Vonnegut, Walker Percy, William Faulkner, Herman Melville, Mark Twain, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Ernest Hemingway, John Steinbeck, Flannery O'Connor, Ray Bradbury, Cormac McCarthy, Edgar Allen Poe, David Foster Wallace, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Jack London, Robert Penn Warren...all really bad, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read most of them, mostly because (a) I don't read much literature and (b) when I do, I prefer to read English authors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that speaks for itself. Haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3018" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's probably not great literature, but I think reading Asimov helps one understand the modern scientific point of view.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O Connor has craft. Its her grotesque that gives pause and the just what is she doing. But i much prefer the music of the older poets and the beauty. The music is very important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Asimov is very good. The Caves of Steel is a personal favorite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3021" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Willa Cather - My Antonia. *drops mic*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do like My Antonia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">isak. That list has a couple decent and and one horrific.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I don't think any of those authors compare to people like Dickens, Jane Austen and Wodehouse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gonna make me guess the horrific? Is it Faulkner?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">none are great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I'd probably bet $5 on that claim)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You mean the authors you mostly haven't read? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I know. You don't like DFW.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(82, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">steinback is a terrible writer every way. There are a few decent but they are not great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3031" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's where the bet comes in, Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The author of East of Eden = terrible writer? I really don't even know how to respond to that, but that's all right. Can I ask, would you explain what you mean by "great?" Maybe we're not really disagreeing very much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3033" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wodehouse is very funny, Edward, but I don't think he's much more than light entertainment. Not that that's a bad thing, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3034" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I think he has a nearly perfect command of language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The author of grapes of wrath cant write a story. Maybe east of eden is much better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also think people tend to give comedy short shrift</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3037" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And he's much better at short stories than O'Connor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wodehouse is good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O Connor definitely can write.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there are few good at comedy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3041" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wodehouse is good. He's definitely not better at short stories than O'Connor. But I suppose in the end, comparing those two is like comparing apples and wheelbarrows.<br />Also - no one who loves O'Connor is giving comedy short shrift. She's as funny as they come.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-25T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My personal theory about O'Connor is that people find her confusing and confuse that with depth. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3043" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now you're trolling. I refuse to bite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3044" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">O'Connor's novels are underrated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3045" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Wise Blood is a truly great American novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">although her short stories might be overrated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I stick with the old since I read little literature now. Perhaps that will change again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love Knut Hamsen. there I said it. Norway for the win!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's pretty hard to overrate Parker's Back, or A View of the Woods...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes but a good man is hard to find</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-25T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-25T23:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone should read "Growth of the Soil" but Knut Hamsen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see what you did there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can overrate by calling her great. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, aren't we forgetting this wonderful small-town piece of classic American literature - "Under the Bleachers," by Seymour Butts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-25T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-25T23:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you haven't said what you mean by "great."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_3058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-25T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-25T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">great = what one ought never tire of rereading. You like?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(234, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Irving is good (lacks depth). Great because i dont tire of rereading. His stories are perfect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clever, but incomplete.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then complete.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think great is as the wise man might judge. I lean on them and find after years they are right. Many factors in judging. But craft and substance are important as well as the beauty or wisdom they reveal and the wonder they foster.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3063" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T00:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I : American novelists :: a certain person : sacra doctrina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A question that has been bothering me of late: how is the lady in Eliot's "Portrait of a Lady" presented?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can also articulate at length the deficiencies of many of those authors. I guess i mean the measure is not my ability to reread but this: that we either continually learn something new with each reading or delight in the story again and again. But the wise understand best and have best taste and in their absence good poets are guides as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3066" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-26T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-26T00:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's that time again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3067" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-26T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-26T01:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">All we had at the house was Episode 1. <br />Tired. <br />End of day. <br />Wife gone. <br />I was sorely tempted. <br />But I couldn't sell my children out like that. So I walked all three of em down to the village and rented Episode IV, blue ray.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-26T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-26T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/pCjMGOvMghY<br />Star Wars Talk to Your Kids PSA<br />Star Wars fan dads discuss how they will talk to their kids about Star Wars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3069" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T01:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the "I" in your analogy stands for "Isak," Edward - that's pretty funny. But I would hope I'm a better listener than a certain person. Also, we've all read the stuff he's quoting. You already said you hadn't read the authors I mentioned.<br />John, defining great literature as "that which one ought never tire of rereading" is still appealing to an undefined standard. Why "ought" one not tire of rereading such and such a book? Since that standard or measure is undefined, it seems to me that your definition relies too much on the arbitrary. What of the person who enjoys rereading Twilight, or Harlequin romance novels?<br />Remember too that Don Quixote never tired of reading and rereading his chivalrous adventure novels - and his brain dried up.<br />That's why I said your definition is incomplete. In all honesty though, I'm not sure I can define a great novel or novelist either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah! And I just saw your followup comment. Somehow my screen is not updating the thread in real time. I agree more with your new qualification.<br />However, I do not see why articulating the deficiencies of authors makes one a better reader of literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T01:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By that I mean something like:<br />"Vonnegut was a humanist."<br />"Yeah, so what?"<br />"So he's a deficient author."<br />Maybe that's not what you mean. If it is, I don't agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3072" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-26T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-26T02:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_3073" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-26T02:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-26T02:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's just good parenting Matthew. The original not bastardized original releases are possibly to be blu ray'd prior to the magisterium's celebration of the fake date of Christ's birth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T06:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T06:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To define great lit well I think you have to get a little outside philosophy and plant a foot in the worlds of both art and (don't shoot me) history and culture. Great writers, aside from technical control and wisdom about human nature / the human condition, are also men and women of their time. Yeah, Shakespeare and Austen wear well through the centuries, but that is not because they removed themselves from the concerns and styles of their age, but because they embraced them so thoroughly. I also therefore think that there is a good case, in literature, for looking to minority writers and writers from other countries/ cultures to complete the picture. Literature is NOT philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T06:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T06:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think THE literary art form of our age, though, is film. It's weird, because a film is always a group project. But re envisioning what art can be given the tools we have -- that's humanity. London made Shakespeare possible, Gutenberg made Tolstoy possible, the camera ... Well, who ARE the greatest screenwriters and directors of our age? Perhaps I'm off in thinking this way. I'm open to being convinced otherwise .... But I'd need real convincing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3076" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T07:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T07:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know Megan, film lends itself to passivity in a way that reading can't. There has always been trash literature (see also, Dumas) but in film it seems from a first glance that the trash is more.... voyeuristic? Is that the right word? And I'm not talking trash as in inappropriate film, but just "a movie" - like any summer action film. The way in which it entertains is different, and I would probably argue, lesser.<br />(Except Trollhunter)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T07:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T07:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Couldn't you same the same of drama, Michael? Shakespeare? I mean, consider The Godfather.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T07:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T07:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, it transports. I think that's why Shakespeare would have been all over it (see end of Tempest and A Midsummer Nights Dream). And Tolkien said fantasy wouldn't work as drama -- but his objections were pragmatic, and have been overcome by technology. (Which surprised me when I read it - !!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3079" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T07:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T07:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe it's a defect in me, but plays are about dialogue, not exploding cars and gun fights. <br />Personally, I've always liked the music/poetry comparison more than the film/literature comparison. But then you have film makers who were playwrights, like Mammet, right? very dialogue focused movies. But is that great? I know CGI makes me want to turn a film off, but I can watch a fully animated movie. It's a confused jumble here, no clear thoughts on the subject.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3080" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T08:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T08:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://thomasaquinas.edu/about/nieto-a-study-film<br />“A Study of Film” | Thomas Aquinas College<br />thomasaquinas.edu</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3081" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T08:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T08:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">1) I have no speakers at work. <br />2) and hour + of Johnny Neat-o? That's a lot to ask<br />3) You really do have a link for everything, don't you Pater?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T08:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T08:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can you summarize?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T08:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T08:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks for the link -- going on my list of things to watch! Incidentally, films that inform my thinking on this would be Babette's Feast (confluence of dialogue and image / color is really moving), Twelve Angry Men (originally a play, but the use of camera on faces develops it well... and nothing much "happens" but my 17-year-old girls were enthralled with the film), Inception (which is best and perhaps only done on film... and perhaps ends with a slick meta-commentary on the art of film itself as a "shared dream"...). Just thinking out loud. As usual. Ha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3084" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T08:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T08:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would amend the statement film is passive. Film when all the elements come together seamlessly can be very manipulative and the experience is more immediate. I don't like grouping film and literature, but they do have narrative in common. Film has at its disposal so many tools to tell a story and very different tools than literature. (Think the way Citizen Kane works with physical size; Wizard of Oz and color). But I often find that something has to alert me to a filmic device in order that I watch the film "actively." Reading... I see and appreciate device everywhere but this might come down to training/indoctrination at this point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T08:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T08:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Film might better be called "art form" than literature. It does involve literary elements, but ... yeah. I'd be willing to say it's not literature. But then ... what do we do with Shakespeare and Ibsen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3086" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:23:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Earlier it was mentioned and questioned: "Where did the poets [specifically the epic poets] go? Is it Tolkien or whoever?" You guys, especially you guys in this thread, are not going to like the answer. After studying the epic form and whatnot for a lot of grad school, the art form that these people followed was not film. Film is where the Tragedians and Comedians went. The epic-writers went to video games. (Drops mic)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3087" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T08:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T08:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Huh! (And why wouldn't "we guys" like the idea that the epic poets went to video games? Despite being accused of being unable to think outside the box, I think "we" (whoever that is...) -- like any other rational human being -- are perfectly capable of thinking not only outside the box, but about the box itself. Just weigh in, man, and assume nothing!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3088" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T08:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T08:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't play video games. Is there "epic-wholeness" in video games?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3089" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whoa there Tex, where you stand in relation to the box is no interest of mine. I just didn't think that scholars wouid think much of video games. According to research into epic as an art form, one of the qualifying essential criteria for an epic is that it must contain a struggle against the inevitable. In _The Iliad_, the gods struggle against Zeus or the humans struggle against Hera, etc.. The drama created by that resistance is what creates the content of the epic. _Paradise Lost_ and _Jerusalem Delivered_ follow the same rule. There was also a heavy audience-participation element assumed to be in each epic, though that's less essential and more an artifact of its origin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T08:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T08:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then maybe you be hanging with the wrong scholars. my friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3091" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T08:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T08:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not true. There is no limit to what scholars take seriously. (Also have a friend writing on video game music). Going back to epic and video games? Why? Let me be a devil's advocate for a moment and present an argument not my own- our cosmology eschews wholeness, therefore the epic withers as a contemporary form. Not being familiar with video games, why are they epic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3092" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that certainly used to be true! But anyways, in a video game, it's the content itself that struggle against you, the player. The drama of overcoming the game as its plot struggles against you, the inevitable winner, is what creates the content of the game.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3093" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the video game ignores the popular cosmology because they are intentionally made to be counter-cultural. It's ironic, I guess? They are wholly self-contained, because they need to be to make money. So I guess it's a sort of Capitalist-epic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T08:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Harry Potter count as an epic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T08:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, Dobby dies. DOBBY DIES!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(192, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T08:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Granted it might not be a very good epic, but still...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3097" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T08:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T08:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will ask a really fundamentally dumb question about video games: DEATH. Is there really any video game death?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which one was Dobby? Was he the red haired kid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah there is in some of the larger plots, but usually the video game has to break its own suspension-of-disbelief-rules in order to have death. So, if a character must die, then all of the other tricks that the player has learned to avoid death or cheat death are taken from them. That's the Epic-ist taking control back, I suppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh jeez, Lendman liked my post about Dobby. He wasn't the red-haired kid, was he?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3101" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T08:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T08:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just watched the movies recently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T08:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never finished the books. I got lost in book 4 and never came out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Book 4 was the one with the Twilight Guy that died right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T08:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3106" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Clayton Brockman" data-date="2014-08-26T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-26T08:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh Jeez it's finally happened. I'm "out of touch."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3107" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T09:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clayton, the Legend of Zelda is epic from its inception (first video game where you could save your progress) all the way through the franchise. (skyward sword kinda sucked however)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T09:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://news.lib.uchicago.edu/.../videogame-collection.../<br />Videogame collection supports scholarly study | The University of Chicago Library News<br />news.lib.uchicago.edu<br />After several months of fascinating discussion about emerging interest in the academic study of videogames, I am overjoyed that the University of Chicago Library has acquired its first videogame collection, and that these games will soon be available for borrowing from the Mansueto Library. Why, som…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3109" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T10:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, what is the "work" you are supposedly always also doing when on Facebook?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3110" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T10:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things TAC should add to the program: Bonaventure, Scotus, Ockham, Luther, Calvin, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Goethe's Farbenlehre, Adolf Portmann...<br />Things that should be cut: Driesch and his stupid e-factor, the SJC measurement manual, but NOT Spenser; The Faerie Queene is good stuff, and I would never have read it if it hadn't been in the program.<br />Things they should not add: novels that everyone has read anyway, especially highly overrated novels like Gatsby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3111" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T10:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are doing a lot of adding and not much subtracting... The program is already pretty full.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3112" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T10:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with what Joel HF said about putting all of first year lab in 1 semester. That frees up some pace, but not for "Ockham, Luther, Calvin, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Goethe's Farbenlehre, Adolf Portmann..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3113" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T10:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait up, I'm not done. The encyclicals should be taken out of seminar, and some Papal and Conciliar teachings added to theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^This is starting to sound a little familiar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3115" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T10:51:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are in the Second Enlightenment of the Never Ending Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3116" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T10:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But since there is not properly speaking before and after, only above and below, this can really be considered the same as the First Enlightenment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3117" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T10:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consequently, it should sound familiar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3118" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Papal and Conciliar teachings=the M word. But you really should just have lectures about them, since laymen aren't qualified to really understand or discuss divine things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3119" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T10:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not opposed to moving the Encyclicals to Theology. But I would not know what to move out of theology as is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3120" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T10:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could just have them in the last class of each semester, the way St Th.'s proemium to In Post. An. is done in the last class of Freshman Phil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3121" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T10:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh look, it’s the statement that Rome made Bautain sign:<br />“We promise for now and forever: NEVER TO TEACH … 3 that with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics, and the truths depending on it, as a science totally distinct from supernatural theology, which is founded on divine revelation…”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neat!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, work!? It's what I get paid (poorly) for doing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3124" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T11:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">and thanks for the reboot. I thought I killed it with a scholarly study of Zelda</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On track for 4000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't Heidegger added to the program? When I was there we had seminars at Ferrier's house and one in the Library with Father Sokolowski from CUA on a couple of his texts (maybe one at Hartmann,s too.... my memory fades)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Potter is epic indeed!!! (see edit: non -Potter fans only or you may need salts.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think "What is Metaphysics" should be added if it isn't already</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3129" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T11:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What is magisterium?" magisterially speaking of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3130" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">GATSBY 4EVAH!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3131" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T11:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(kidding)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3132" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about Moar Russan liderature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3133" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*drinks White Russian*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3134" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*drinks another White Russian*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3135" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T11:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think if there is more literature, surreality would be good. How about "Invitation to a Beheading" or "The Trial"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3136" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-26T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-26T11:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone ever get through the required Thomas at the end of Year to have time to add other stuff in there as well?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3137" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T11:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan Caughron - I just want to point out one big difference I see between live drama and film. It seems to me that film is a primarily visual medium, which is why one refers to its consumers as viewers. Theater, on the other hand, is primarily ordered to the ear, which is why one refers to those attending as an audience (audio, audire). You go watch a movie. You go hear a play.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Becca Cupo" data-date="2014-08-26T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Becca Cupo at 2014-08-26T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you all going to get together for a party and have a shot every time "Sacred Theology" is mentioned? I honestly don't have enough time to see if this has already been mentioned, but I really, really love this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T11:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak that seems totally specious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T11:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, not totally. Just *mostly* specious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater - although many have read Gatsby, few have read it properly. I can't blame you for referring to it as overrated, really, but I'd still defend it as a sacramental masterpiece. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3142" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T11:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh people, "sacramental" is not a term of literary criticism. When will you ever learn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3143" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T11:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Magisterium, magisterium, magisterium; repeat, repeat, repeat. whoops that was for Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3144" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T11:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So it's right, but only superficially? Haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T11:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And when the author himself uses the language of incarnation and holocaust, I think I'm justified in referring to it as sacramental. So there!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3146" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T11:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3147" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T11:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Am too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I do like Seamus Heaney. His translation of Beowulf was smooth. My concern about form and metre is that even the formless poets have some form. Their words fall into some form. The days of Pope's heroic couplets may be dead, they may not work today, but what is the form today?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3149" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T11:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would add some Kafka (I know people have read it), The Cherry Orchard or the Seagull, and some lyric poetry of the English kind- Byron, Gray, etc., +Night and/or Ivan Denisovich. (But yeah, now I am getting too far ahead and not sure what is a *great* book at that point, but would like to incorporate how the suffering of Twentieth century is handled- it still being formative)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(speaking only of lit I would add)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think American literature is great. It is curious though, that it does not rise to the level. In content. Mark Twain, Longfellow -- the last great American poet. None of them break out into epic greatness, which is curious. Because every great age has had poets that do this, and America is arguably the greatest nation ever. This may be because American greatness is about the little guy with unalienable rights fighting for freedom, and because America is built around eternal rights of the person. Other covilizations which housed the greater poets provided more societal data. Poets needs to become more spiritual in America before they will be able to connect the dots of liberty. Just a theory. But what form would that take?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3152" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Plus" data-date="2014-08-26T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Plus at 2014-08-26T11:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Schniederjan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ux3-a9RE1Q<br />Cover Of The Rolling Stone-Dr.Hook<br />"(cover of the rolling stone) is property of (DR. Hook) and it's producers and/or promoters and is used here pursuant to the fair use provision of the DMCA a...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T11:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There have been a series of great novellae throughout the ages that all have the same character with a similar plot; Kafka's Amerika; Sam Jonson's Rasselas; Evelyn Waugh's Ordeal of Gilbert Pinfold; Camu's L'Etranger; and Gunter Grass's Cat and Mouse; and Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby. The Novella is an interesting form. But again, no great American Novella. Just toss outs that end up in Time's Store of Used Books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3154" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T11:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what about taking out Don Quixote? Unless someone else has already mentioned this. Also I don't see why we need two Freud seminars. I agree about adding Scotus and Bonaventure somewhere...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3155" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd also make a big ole push for Havel's the power of the powerless. But I just think that's a damn fine essay</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Denzinger and Ott are two of the best poets.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we might as well say it, you could fix almost all the problems with pacing and cover "everything" if you just added a fifth year. yes, everything needed quotation marks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FOR ISAK. Some lengthier consideration. Criticism is easier, but I'm not just criticizing. Below is a start on distinguishing truly great literature from the slop of recent vintage. Much more needs to be said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To the question of what is “great”, and important question for a program that sometimes at least claims to be great books (at other times not). <br />I believe Adler defines it as rereadable. Others as what time approves. If the latter, we can't call anything great but must leave it for the next age.<br />But are there any criteria by which we may judge? I don't agree entirely with the view of picking out those books that have developed our present culture. Not merely that at least, and ESPECIALLY so in literature (perhaps equally so in philosophy). Partly, the reason is that I regard the rise of modernity (in politics, philosophy, theology, and literature too) as a rejection of the ancients and the Church. Whereas Aquinas had the luxury (as well as Augustine) of picking out anything that was finely or rightly said by contemporary and ancient authors, we are now more involved in a war rather than a “great discussion”. Swift illustrates this in his intro to the Tale of Tub in one of my favorites “The Battle of the Books.” He demonstrates this poetically which I think I can demonstrate in bits and pieces only.<br />But as to literature or poetry and what qualifies as great, here's a few problems for recent novels (and is true of most American novels and a lot of poetry). In fact I recommend Rip van Winkle which is my favorite short American story (and I just realized as a kid I had his nickname, perhaps a part of the grand divine irony). The most significant change in the revolution I see therein is the loss of leisure, without which the poetic arts suffer grievously. One thing poetry (good poetry that is though not necessarily great) does is hold a mirror up to society (another aim being to concretize truth or point to beauty – Fr. Chad Ripperberger has an excellent essay on this, I believe on his site http://www.sensustraditionis.org/ChristianArtCulture.pdf ). Poetry can be more helpful for this because prudential judgement and politics are based on the concrete. Since we have no experience of pre-Revolutionary America, the poet (often an excellent observer) can show us what we cannot see ourselves and so aid us in making generalizations and judgements. Before reading Michael D. O'Brien's book “Strangers and Sojourners” I had difficulty understanding what distributism was, but in that he showed it (a kind of side point of it). He presented facts that one doesn't do. Likewise, our love of Hamlet these days (a play derided and unliked until this century) is a mirror for what most ails us, and after many years I think I finally see the horror of that image. THAT is one measure of the good poet. Can he hold a mirror to society (as Tennyson does in “Ulysses” which Eliot gives as an example of a perfect poem and I could write a few interesting comments on that too)? ANOTHER is “is it beautiful?” Does it direct us to love of the true? I see that in Dryden's ode to St. Cecilia. <br />And the music is important especially in the later, because in odes (which are akin very much to hymns and even the same kind of thing really) we are attuned to the truly beautiful and truth itself. For this reason a poet like Tennyson is well worth studying. Even if his subject matter was less than worthy, his ear for the music of language is one of the best; in that he is amazing. The problem of much recent writing is the poet himself has lost the very purpose of poetry. These are just a couple considerations. The aim of tragedy/ comedy is more to hold up a mirror and by means of irony to point out the flaws as for correction. Thus Homer, I must say, is as ironic as Plato – indeed perhaps taught the Greeks that art. So many of his lines surpass anything written since like “she shed a light tear.” Can one ever fail to smile at that? Does it lose its vigor? Is it not still true to this day? The irony of what Achilles does immediately after proclaiming his everlasting love for Briseis. But almost every line of Homer is full of such, like Agammenon “leaning” on his scepter. For irony, as Aristotle points out, is the humor of the wise man (and indeed he too is full of such). Anyways, something to consider.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3160" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T11:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Benedict, your taste in literature is obviously good. (By which I really mean that the fact that you mentioned David Foster Wallace, about whom I am writing a dissertation, endears you to me). So you've introduced some doubt into my mind about Gatsby. But the problem with Gatsby seems to me that one never really cares about the characters. Sure they symbolize cool stuff and all, but that's all they do (unlike the characters in Faerie Queene )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think in modern poetry, the heroic couplet has fallen apart, like the pieces of a broken barrel, and the metal hoops that bind them all, and the bottom, the broken bottom; and the modern poet picks them all up in his arms, and with his hands rearranges them. He makes it up, going along. If it sounds okay, it's okay. There's no poetics in poetry these days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T12:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is David Foster Wallace worth doing a dissertation on? He wrote about substance abuse centers; The Pale King is all broken up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T12:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read Wallace. Should I put him on my list? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without a doubt, The Great Gatsby is the first great American novella.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pope's mock-epic is the best ever:<br />Oft when the World imagine Women stray,<br />The Sylphs thro' mystick Mazes guide their Way,<br />Thro' all the giddy Circle they pursue,<br />And old Impertinence expel by new.<br />What tender Maid but must a Victim fall<br />To one Man's Treat, but for another's Ball?<br />When Florio speaks, what Virgin could withstand,<br />If gentle Damon did not squeeze her Hand?<br />With varying Vanities, from ev'ry Part,<br />They shift the moving Toyshop of their Heart;<br />Where Wigs with Wigs, with Sword-knots Sword-knots strive,<br />Beaus banish Beaus, and Coaches Coaches drive. <br />This erring Mortals Levity may call,<br />Oh blind to Truth! the Sylphs contrive it all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">With varying Vanities, from ev'ry Part,<br />They shift the moving Toyshop of their Heart;</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where Wigs with Wigs, with Sword-knots Sword-knots strive,<br />Beaus banish Beaus, and Coaches Coaches drive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This erring Mortals Levity may call,<br />Oh blind to Truth! the Sylphs contrive it all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3169" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-26T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-26T12:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gatsby is horse poop. Overrated, underwhelming. Great for marketing though. The first true soap opera. Much like the 20's Kardashian's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't back that up. Gatsby is a great novella, in form and content and lyrical style.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3171" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T12:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Is X worth writing a dissertation on?" A question only possible for someone who has blissfully never written a dissertation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3172" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T12:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rolling back......<br />Why are we talking about literature? It think it plain that studying both poetry and (most) fiction (fine, I'll add drama too) is (nearly) a complete waste of time in Seminar. <br />I think there should be a seminar drinking game. Every time someone cherishes their pet crackpot literary theory everyone takes a shot. Poetry HAS to be read out loud. There isn't any other way to do it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3173" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T12:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am in complete disbelief that somebody suggested taking Don Q. out of the program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For me how much I got out of the literature seminars came down to which tutor I had. Some tutors were able to make the works earth-shattering and incredible, while with others all I got out of it was what I got out of it by reading it. But I disagree that they are a waste of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3175" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T12:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nonono the literature isn't the waste of time. Just the class</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, I think that's pretty much 50/50.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3177" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T12:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So much to respond to. So little time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3178" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T12:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But maybe that makes you right....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am still interested to see what Pater would take out of the program in order to insert the names he suggested above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3180" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-26T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-26T12:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The more I like a book the more I hated doing a seminar on it. I'm being totally honest. I had to walk out of a few of them because I couldn't take the relentless plot and character dissection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Heidegger is not in the curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3182" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T13:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think both Don Q and W and P are elegantly situated to predict some of the questions that motivate the other texts. I found classes on them highly frustrating because, first of all, there were two each. Not like, say 5 or 6, on the earlier stuff (Illiad, Odyssey, Aeneid, DC). I also liked A(ll)S(chool)S(eminar) on Death of Ivan Ilych and Murder in the Cathedral. But seminars were also frustrating because people were all over the place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Study literature as poetics, because it supports metaphysics and faith at the same time. Still a problem with the faithful being attracted towards the great secular literary writers, as the early Christian clergy were drawn towards the pagan philosophers. We need the light of the pagan philosophers, but also need the pull revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas Aquinas was a great poet. His metaphor, Christ is a merciful Pelican, a bestiary.<br />Adoro te devote, latens Deitas,<br />Quæ sub his figuris vere latitas;<br />Tibi se cor meum totum subjicit,<br />Quia te contemplans totum deficit.<br />Visus, tactus, gustus in te fallitur,<br />Sed auditu solo tuto creditur.<br />Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius;<br />Nil hoc verbo veritátis verius.<br />In cruce latebat sola Deitas,<br />At hic latet simul et Humanitas,<br />Ambo tamen credens atque confitens,<br />Peto quod petivit latro pœnitens.<br />Plagas, sicut Thomas, non intueor:<br />Deum tamen meum te confiteor.<br />Fac me tibi semper magis credere,<br />In te spem habere, te diligere.<br />O memoriale mortis Domini!<br />Panis vivus, vitam præstans homini!<br />Præsta meæ menti de te vívere,<br />Et te illi semper dulce sapere.<br />Pie Pelicane, Jesu Domine,<br />Me immundum munda tuo sanguine:<br />Cujus una stilla salvum facere<br />Totum mundum quit ab omni scelere.<br />Jesu, quem velatum nunc aspicio,<br />Oro, fiat illud quod tam sitio:<br />Ut te revelata cernens facie,<br />Visu sim beátus tuæ gloriæ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(208, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T13:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes! Don Q. is the perfect introduction/remedy to the authors read in junior seminar. And we also had really good All-schools on Murder in the Cathedral and Gunnar's Daughter, although again, mostly thanks to the tutors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3186" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The symbolism of the mother pelican feeding her baby pelicans with her own flesh and blood is rooted in an ancient legend which preceded Christianity. This tradition is found in the Physiologus, an early Christian bestiary, which appeared in the second century in Alexandria.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3187" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T13:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean Robertson: Goethe on color and Portmann would replace the Measurement manual. Heidegger and Wittgenstein would replace the magisterial texts in senior seminar. And Bonaventure, Scotus, Ockham, Luther, and Calvin could be included by having sophomore seminar twice a week.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don Q is important because it precedes the modern English novel, and it is best of the Spanish in the tradition of the chivalric novel. It's part of a whole trend that lasted 400 years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3189" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T13:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once upon a time in a senior seminar long long ago, there was a girl who was so derailing in conversation that all the other students would only ignore her. She claimed that many of the texts were not worth the time. She coped by at first hiding Jane Austen novels behind her other book, but then grew so angry at the class's disregard that she read them openly, trying to draw attention to herself and holding the book upright on the table. That made reading literature (et al) frustrating....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^what Katie Duda said. Don Q needs at least 3 or 4 seminarrs if not more. There are some things that seem worth doing partially, but with a book like that... I'd rather take it out completely, which is why I suggested it. I know, it's a little defeatist of me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.rna.org/news/184377/Beasts-from-the-East.htm<br />“Beasts from the East” - RELIGION | NEWSWRITERS<br />www.rna.org<br />Fairfax, VA (For Immediate Release) -- Eastern Christian Publications announces the publication of a series of original Catholic devotionals entitled The Blessed Book of Beasts, written by Jonathan Scott. Featuring virtually every animal named in the Bible, it uses classical literary forms from the…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3192" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T13:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting. Although I'm not sure that there is room in the theology tutorial for those magisterial texts. Also, the chosen encyclicals generally are at least partially in response to the works read in senior seminar, so keeping them in there helps continuity in the class, I think. They should, however, move those texts individually to immediately follow the texts to which they relate most (Humani Generis after Darwin, Pascendi after Jung et al., etc.), instead of just throwing them in at the end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3193" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I wonder how possible it would be to have sophomores do two seminars a week. I think that might do more harm than good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You need to get more magisterial texts and doctrine into the curriculum somehow. It is the glue that binds the airplane together, without which the kids will never fly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you put more magisterial texts in the body, you can build bigger wings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3196" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-26T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-26T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can I get real excited about my crackpot literary theory yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Duda's theory of literary activism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, I definitely agree that those things need longer study, but I still think they're worthwhile to do quickly. It does occur to me though, that my appreciation for Don Q. didn't reach its fullness until the post-seminar discussions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thing is, with almost every work we read in seminar, it really needs a much more thorough examination. We only skim the surface with most of those works (although I think we do a pretty good job given the circumstances). That's when I have to remind myself that the curriculum is really just a beginning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3201" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that "we do a pretty good job" comment probably applies more to the philosophers in seminar than the literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone looked at the metaphysical art and theory of Carl Schmitt? His grandchildren and great grandchildren have gone to Thomas Aquinas College. I studied art theory and criticism for about a decade, and I don't think I've read anything quite so on the money. I just wish he wrote more.<br />He basically says the artist imposes form on non-formal, and formal, unities in nature, and then shares this in the form of his work of art. This is aligned with orthodox mysticism of the East and Western Churches, avoids modern art heresies such as sacramentalism, and bridges the gap between the classical formalists and the present. It gets us around the wasteland. <br />http://www.carlschmitt.org/<br />Carl Schmitt<br />www.carlschmitt.org</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You need a trained literary instructor. It took "scholars" 150 years to figure out what Pope was doing. But a good teacher can demonstrate that in 10 minutes. It is a balance of trust between the tutor and the student.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3204" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T13:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe Carl Schmitt was a tutor in the early days of the college, before he went off to found the Trivium School to prepare highschoolers for TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, according to Dr. MacArthur, they did read Calvin at some point. I don't remember exactly why he said they removed it, but I think they either wanted to add something they thought was better or they generally found the discussions to be a waste of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3206" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as Scotus goes, I'm not sure he'd be worthwhile at TAC: not because it isn't important to read him, but he's so complicated that he'd need more time than the program has to spare.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T13:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about Suarez?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-26T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-26T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, no haha, that was John Schmitt. _Carl_ Schmitt was the brilliant, scary German Jurist who wrote Political Theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of the Christian bestiary, if anyone wants a copy of the first one written since the Middle Ages, please log on to:<br />https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...<br />Eastern Christian Publications<br />secure.webvalence.com<br />Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, that was Carl Schmitt's son who taught at TAC and founded the Trivium. You may be related to him by marriage thrice removed. I just find it incredibly curious how Schmitt NAILED art theory, but TAC begins with Euclid and spends about one day on Poetics. Ne'er forget, Thomas Aquinas mastered the metaphor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3211" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T13:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophy + Theology > Art</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3212" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacred theology > Metaphysics = Philosophy + Theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Art is just a making. It comes from the skill of the artist, and how he views the world. How he views the world depends on how he has learned, and grace. This informs the artist's observation, and his making.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Ed, are you jettisoning literature for more Philosophy and Theology at the seminar level?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3215" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T14:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would, but I think too much more philosophy would dramatically increase burnout rates.<br />Also, Kierkegaard delenda est</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T14:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why? Because phil/theo is superior, or because the classes on it are superior? or both?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">With all due respect, I do not think anyone from Thomas Aquinas College understands the critical importance of a new art theory of realism. The founders and the tutors of the college could not explain the formal and material elements of metaphor and enthymeme if the world depended on it. The tutors force you to study logical syllogism for two months, but deny metaphor is a syllogism of beauty, and the enthymeme of the good. The curriculum is unable to deliver the transcendentals in a unified manner. So, there is no point reading literature. It undercuts what it sets out to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T14:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both, literature analysis always feels like a waste of time to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3219" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T14:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Metaphor is a syllogism of beauty" is a metaphor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3220" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">""metaphor is a syllogism of beauty" is a blooming rose" is a metaphor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, metaphor is a syllogism of beauty is literal. Woman is a rose is an example of a metaphor. But what is metaphor? Tom Kaiser couldn't tell you what a metaphor is.<br />A metaphor is a syllogism that informs the imagination and leads to beauty.<br />Art is reasonable.<br />The enthymeme is like this, but in relation to the will and to the good.<br />This is what Aristotle teaches in his poetics, politics, analytics and movement of animals.<br />But you do not teach any of this at TAC, so the whole thing undercuts itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3222" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T14:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">here it comes:<br />http://i279.photobucket.com/.../kk143/faeini1/agscary4.gif<br />i279.photobucket.com<br />i279.photobucket.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It also undercuts the student, who thirsts for transcendental unity. This is because the human soul is one in imagination, reason and will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3224" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T14:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always considered "invisalign braces" to be trancendentistry</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That reminds me, I have to call the ortho for my daughter. Thank you! <br />Her teeth will be flocks of sheep, each one with its pair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3226" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I assume by "transcendental unity" you mean good/true/beautiful, but you're assuming an awful lot when you say TAC doesn't understand poetics. <br />And no, metaphor is not a syllogism, either regular or hypothetical...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You deny a lot of things in your ignorance and universally convert TAC with knowledge.<br />Metaphor IS a kind of syllogism. It has a premise, with an implied major, leading to a reasonable conclusion by imagination. <br />Rose is beautiful (implied)<br />Woman is rose (metaphor)<br />Woman is beautiful (conclusio)<br />Enthymeme is a kind of syllogism also. Aristotle states this in Rhetoric.<br />Yes, transcendtal unity means the spiritual unity of the beauty, good and true. Logical syllogism only leads to true. Metaphor to beauty; enthymeme to good. Intellect, imagination and heart (will) respectively.<br />For the record, Michael Betia, you just denied all this.<br />But this is what Aristotle and Thomas taught, as well as Cicero and many others; but you do not learn this at TAC because it was establish by reactionary logicalists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3228" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T15:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND THEY'RE OFF</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, your inner Linda Blair is coming out again. Your example above shows the metaphor to be the minor premise, which isn't a syllogism, unless you're speaking in synecdoche</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">synecdoche isn't syllogism either</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both metaphor and enthymeme are a kind of syllogism, as the Philosopher states, just as "African" is a kind of man. "The enthymeme is a kind of syllogism" (Rhetoric Bk 1) with an implied major, as is the metaphor, each leading to reasonable conclusions in imagination and will (toward the good), respectively.<br />Again, you are not competent on this issue. You are like someone denying that Micky Mantle was a baseball player. <br />FWIW, the form of the syllogism is the same form as transcendental unity, with each form corresponding with the various parts of the one human soul (reason, imagination and will).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">May I confirm that pb is trying to distinguish himself as a master of tropes, Michael?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3233" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe he should quote the whole passage<br />t is clear, then, that rhetorical study, in its strict sense, is concerned with the modes of persuasion. Persuasion is clearly a sort of demonstration, since we are most fully persuaded when we consider a thing to have been demonstrated. The orator's demonstration is an enthymeme, and this is, in general, the most effective of the modes of persuasion. The enthymeme is a sort of syllogism, and the consideration of syllogisms of all kinds, without distinction, is the business of dialectic, either of dialectic as a whole or of one of its branches. It follows plainly, therefore, that he who is best able to see how and from what elements a syllogism is produced will also be best skilled in the enthymeme, when he has further learnt what its subject-matter is and in what respects it differs from the syllogism of strict logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Synechdoche is just when you take a part of something and use it to stand for the whole, and it has nothing to do with this. I think you just throw it in there to try to sound intelligent, like Langley, which is ashame, because you are both intelligent; but you fail to admit what you do not know, and deny truths which are obvious, such as a thing is defined by its form, metaphor and enthymeme have the form of a syllogism, which is why the Philosopher defines them as a kind of syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, Mr. Not-the-Seraphic-Doctor, we TACers who read the Analytics and the Poetics and the Rhetoric remember passages like this which show that metaphor is not a syllogism but a way of using the name of one thing to signify another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Metaphor is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to species, or from species to genus, or from species to species, or by analogy, that is, proportion. Thus from genus to species, as: 'There lies my ship'; for lying at anchor is a species of lying. From species to genus, as: 'Verily ten thousand noble deeds hath Odysseus wrought'; for ten thousand is a species of large number, and is here used for a large number generally. From species to species, as: 'With blade of bronze drew away the life,' and 'Cleft the water with the vessel of unyielding bronze.' Here arusai, 'to draw away' is used for tamein, 'to cleave,' and tamein, again for arusai- each being a species of taking away. Analogy or proportion is when the second term is to the first as the fourth to the third. We may then use the fourth for the second, or the second for the fourth. Sometimes too we qualify the metaphor by adding the term to which the proper word is relative. Thus the cup is to Dionysus as the shield to Ares. The cup may, therefore, be called 'the shield of Dionysus,' and the shield 'the cup of Ares.' Or, again, as old age is to life, so is evening to day. Evening may therefore be called, 'the old age of the day,' and old age, 'the evening of life,' or, in the phrase of Empedocles, 'life's setting sun.' For some of the terms of the proportion there is at times no word in existence; still the metaphor may be used. For instance, to scatter seed is called sowing: but the action of the sun in scattering his rays is nameless. Still this process bears to the sun the same relation as sowing to the seed. Hence the expression of the poet 'sowing the god-created light.' There is another way in which this kind of metaphor may be employed. We may apply an alien term, and then deny of that term one of its proper attributes; as if we were to call the shield, not 'the cup of Ares,' but 'the wineless cup'. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IT DIFFERS FROM THE SYLLOGISM OF STRICT LOGIC (emphasis added)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if you know what I just quoted from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3239" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jonathan Carlin" data-date="2014-08-26T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Carlin at 2014-08-26T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol. of course everything mr. beitia learned about aristotle he learned at tac</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahaha how you doing, former roommate?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jonathan Carlin" data-date="2014-08-26T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Carlin at 2014-08-26T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty good!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jonathan Carlin" data-date="2014-08-26T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Carlin at 2014-08-26T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How's the fam?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">big and happy. When are you coming up north?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jonathan Carlin" data-date="2014-08-26T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Carlin at 2014-08-26T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">unfortunately, school does restrict my wandering a bit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as does the fam mine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jonathan Carlin" data-date="2014-08-26T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Carlin at 2014-08-26T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes indeed. and I know you love Irving.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's one thing to read, another to understand, another to know what you do not know, and another to need to look like the smartest guy in the room.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Love Irving?" that's hyperbole</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jonathan Carlin" data-date="2014-08-26T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Carlin at 2014-08-26T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, maybe...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphor has also been described as analogy of inverse proportion, by how it predicates the attributes of one thing to another by imagination, and uses the form of a syllogism, as does the enthymeme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">recapitulate, restate<br />unlisten</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3252" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T15:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am beginning to suspect that Perigrine is on the payroll of TAC to draw students away from Christendom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3253" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T15:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the man can derail a conversation as fast as he can start one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's charming how TAC denies truth outside the range of its ideology.<br />Peter is a rock.<br />Does this mean Peter is a lifeless mass of compressed minerals?<br />Implied major premise: All rock is solid and a good foundation.<br />Metaphor: Peter is a rock<br />Conclusion: Peter is a solid foundation<br />Metaphor is a kind of syllogism (Aristotle, Thomas, Cicero, Boethius, John Donne...)<br />***<br />Enthymeme is a kind of truncated syllogism. Cicero's epichyreme is also a kind of multipremised emthymeme.<br />(Implied) The virtuous leader opposes tyranny<br />(Implied) Political walls restrain with tyranny<br />(Enthymeme) Mr. Gorbachov, tear down that wall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3255" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T15:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Peregrine, metaphor is a species of equivocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You derailed it.<br />And it was never a conversation. It's an ideological polemic launched by a sycophant under the guise of truth, taking the names of Thomas and Aristotle and the Catholic Faith in vain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3257" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It goes like this:<br />- Equivocation<br />-- Equivocation by chance<br />-- Equivocation by design<br />--- Metaphor, in which the intended meaning is not a meaning of the word<br />--- Analogy, in which the intended meaning is a meaning of the word</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There may be a quasi-syllogistic process that justifies a metaphor, but metaphor is not, of itself, an argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3259" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then why does it have the form of a syllogism, mr. smarty-pants?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Metaphor is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to species, or from species to genus, or from species to species, or by analogy, that is, proportion"<br />Aristotle's definition and division of metaphor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one said it was an argument, mt straw man smarty-pants. It's a reasonable play on imagination in the form of a syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3262" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Syllogism just is a greek word meaning argument</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's also a word people who are trying to sound "like the smartest guy in the room" use.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's the anology by inverse proportion definition. And how come you won't answer the question. If metaphor and enthymeme are not a kind of syllogism, why do they take the form of a syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I admit enthymeme is a syllogism, that is an argument.<br />I deny that metaphor is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Syllogism is a form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphor is a reasonable appeal to the imagination, enthymeme to the will. This is why they have the same reasonable form as syllogism.<br />You're just in denial because this was not in your indocrination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The reasonableness in form is a cause of transcentental unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3269" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're just asserting the things your teachers told you to assert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">... unity between truth, beauty and goodness, in a rational soul comprised of imagination, will and intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My teachers were the Great Books. They did not force me to drink Kool-Aid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your teachers told you to drink the Kool-Aid of the Nile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least at TAC we're willing to admit that the Great Books for the most part don't teach themselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does metaphor mean in Greek, Herr Langley? Beyond something, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3275" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T16:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">how, how, o how can one call a metaphor a syllogism? Perhaps we need to start at the beginning. What is a noun for pb?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, so you do need a teacher, then? Is this was you're admitting too now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3277" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-26T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-26T16:14:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">My, oh my. I guess I missed my window to talk about literature at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3278" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"a carrying across" "meta-phorein"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why don't you answer the question, Herr Langley?<br />Why does a metaphor and an enthymeme have the same form as a rational syllogism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The name of one thing is "carried across" to signify another thing improperly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did: enthymeme does, quodammodo, metaphor doesn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3282" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-26T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-26T16:15:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB, of course we need teachers. We can hardly be expected to indoctrinate ourselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you, and what is carried across in a metaphor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because metaphor is a way of using words, not a way of arguing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I said, the word is carried across.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is not an answer. It is a false denial. It is self- evident they have the same form.<br />If the metaphor and enthymeme are not both kinds of syllogism, then why do they both have the same form?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the form of a metaphor: Beatrice is a rose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3288" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-26T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-26T16:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, in fixing TAC curriculum, I like Pater Edmund's suggestions for the most part. I'd also take out Billy Budd, Flaubert, and Ibsen, and I'd halve the amount of time spent reading the Founding Fathers and Tocqueville.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, I should say, an example of a metaphor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Herr Langley, the predication is carried across. Learn your grammar. The predicate attribute of the implied major is carried across to the metaphor, which leads to a reasonable act of the imagination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3291" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T16:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am starting to think its really maybe not PB's fault. He is so thoroughly confused. I was joking above but his inability to make distinctions reveals very fundamental confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3292" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And metaphor doesn't involve syllogism but it can involve analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha! Just kidding. I was just seeing if you were awake. The subject of the major premise is carried into the position of the predicate of the metaphor, the minor premise, to carry the predicate in the major premise, across to the reasonable act of the imagination. <br />Now could you please write that on the board 50 times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hence, the carrying across. Just like the middle term carries across knowledge from better known to newly known.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Metaphor is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to species, or from species to genus, or from species to species, or by analogy, that is, proportion."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Aristotle says, what metaphor signifies directly is something about the imposition of names. It might use a four-term analogy to justify that imposition, but a four-term analogy isn't a syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beatrice is a rose is also the form of a minor premise with an implied major. Same for the enthymeme. Both are reasonable appeals, going from better known to newly known, carrying over through a middle, which is the carrying over part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If "Beatrice is a rose" is the metaphor, Herr Langley, then what can we conclude from this metaphor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question, Ed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we conclude that Beatrice has thorns, and leaves?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Beatrice have thorns, Mr. Langley?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3302" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T16:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">perhaps you have misunderstood. Could pb's "arguments" be metaphors? . . . He doesn't know what syllogism is or metaphor: this is a breakthrough. But can he be helped? We may be dealing with Meno. I need to reread that dialogue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is there something else implied in a kind of syllogism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this implication not an appeal to the imagination?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does it not lead to something new, using the same form as a syllogism and an enthymeme?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T16:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maps lead to something new. Ergo, maps are syllogisms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T16:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do syllogisms and enthymemes have the same form?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T16:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and if they do, then what is there distinction?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3309" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T16:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moreover, pb is proof that Faith requires reason. Lacking it, the fullness of the Faith is inaccessable to him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, *their</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">enthymeme is probable sometimes, sometimes it elides one of the premises. It is proper to rhetoric whereas true (deductive) syllogism is proper to logic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3312" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T16:50:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am afraid The Never Ending Thread has entered another Dark Age.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They do, Philip, the enthymeme has an implied major premise. It leads to a reasonable act of the will toward the good. <br />All good men desire good. (Implied maxim)<br />Milk is good for you. (Enthymeme)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">adding enthymeme can only cause more confusion. He has NO idea what syllogism is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But they have the same form, or no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3316" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T16:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, Phillip, Michael and Edward, you guys can be the Irish monks that preserve culture and learning until we can come to a more civilized period.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your welcome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maps don't have a middle term, Michael. Metaphors and enthymemes do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley caused this Dark Age by denying the obvious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, they do have the same form. The difference is that the major premise is implied. One premise will get you nowhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FYI Philip. PB and I cant see each other's posts. I was excommunicated by him (blocked) before TNET era.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-26T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-26T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if you're wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3323" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T16:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They have the same form. All three depend on two premises and a middle term. The form carries over something new. <br />The form is the same. The content is different. The content of the entymeme is moral. The content of the metaphor is imaginary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought aristotle says that enthymeme is an argument based signs and his example from the prior analytics is something like you can guess that a philosophers are wise from the fact that socrates was both. it might also be true that one is implied, and typically is which is why in the rhetoric aristotle gives that as a description of the enthymeme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would submit to the jury, that if the metaphor did not take the same form as a syllogism, then "Beatrice is a rose" is nothing more than a false premise. For clearly, Beatrice is not a rose. <br />HATH BEATRICE THORN? HATH HER LEAFETH?!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">his other example from the prior analytics is something about lactating mammals being pregnant, which doesn't sound like a "moral" example very much. I think there's often confusion about this because enthymeme is so typical in rhetoric one tends to forget it in other places.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nay!!! Beatrice hath no thorn!<br />Hence, I would submit, the metaphor is more than a single premise, a false claim. No, there is an implied premise, which is the form of syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T17:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Beatrice is a rose" hath not the form of a syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">two premises do not, of themselves, guarantee that you have a syllogism. besides, even if there is an implied premise, it is outside of the metaphor, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3330" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T17:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">unless you mean:<br />Beatrice is a pretty thing<br />all pretty things are roses<br />therefore, Beatrice is a rose</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus it is very hidden. Even in political speech. The implied major premise is often the content of much of the speech, the kairos, as it were, the forming the connection with the audience. The enthymeme is the punch line. Having connected with the multitude, you then move them where you want them to go. But it only really works when its moral, or when all good men lose their voices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and in metaphors, which are improper speech, don't you have to take into account the meaning of the speaker which custom or context supply?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">have you checked out the formal treatment of enthymeme in the prior analytics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3334" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T17:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">an observation: the perplexities in this debatable debate on metaphors is analogous the "debate" on fundamentals of theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Augustine is all enthymeme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"St. Augustine is all enthymeme" is a metaphor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reagan was the only President in modern times who used enthymeme and metaphor perfectly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb if you were more explicit he might get it: viz. syllogisms require 3 propositions and metaphor needs 2 terms only.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why bother?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he'll just assert the same thing over and over</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3341" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not if by enthymeme you mean "argument proceeding from signs or likelihoods" as aristotle does. Signs and likelihoods do not attain perfect universality which is why enthymemes are not syllogisms. the dici de omni and dici de nullo do not apply to enthymemes, but these are the principes of the syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At TAC, when they read Augustine, they try to extract the content and make syllogisms out of it, because they wouldn't know how to spot a rhetorical appeal if it kicked them in the knee.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T17:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which in no way responds to the objection Philip just raised, but resorts to (continual) name-calling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">rhetorical appeal has a time and a place to take the forefront. actually, though, isn't rhetoric present in all the sciences to some extent because ethics is a universal knowledge in the sense that everything we do (including knowing) has a bearing on our happiness. thoughts anyone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">also, it is extremely unfair to say nobody at TAC is moved by the rhetoric of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3346" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine. many of us have been profoundly moved by his writings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-08-26T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-08-26T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You people are STILL here? I am beginning to wonder when this thread will officially become the walking undead and start demanding BRAAAAINS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am not clear what you were asking above, Philip. The need for rhetoric depends on the audience entirely. If the listener cannot or wont follow syllogistic argument, it should be used. Of course poetry is often rhetorical. Though here's a question: is Aquinas' poetry rhetorical?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3349" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I guess I was thinking about the emotional and authoritative means of persuasion--their presence everywhere is pretty suprising, though true. Also, I wouldn't identify enthymeme and rhetoric. Enthymeme is use all over the strictly philosophical disciplines as, for example, when aristotle confirms the immateriality of the soul by its increase in strength after knowing a very intelligible object.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3350" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that fact is true of imagination and memory too, so the conclusion does not follow of necessity. enthymeme tends to get classed as solely rhetorical, I think, because the contingent subject matter of politics lends itself to this weaker form of argument; this and the argument called "example"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3351" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">what I'm trying to say is that it seems impossible to me for a politician, making a speech about what to do in the future, to use a syllogism because the subject matter lacks the necessity for that kind of argument. it is not a matter of the attention span of the audience. that is the reason for the shortening of the enthymeme, not for its use in the first place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3352" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T17:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">again, I think there is a common misconception about what the enthymeme is, and how it is related to syllogism. but I would point to the formal treatment of argument in the prior analytics as the key place to look and understand the other more particular texts under its universal light.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3353" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what happened to Mr. Bonaventure?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T18:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">flew away</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philip, i agree with what you say except maybe about examples. As described in the rhetoric, they are more improbable than probable. But i still don't understand your initial question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be precise: they are often false, seldom probable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you argue by example when you recommend a restaurant that you ate at last thursday. it was good for me, so it'll probably be good for you too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do we not use rhetoric even in, say metaphysics, which is a purely speculative science? and if so, what justifies this? I proposed an answer, but I haven't run it by any wise men yet for confirmation, so I figured I should take the opportunity while you guys are all here and talking about more or less related stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">regarding speaches on future actions, that is true and one cause for democracies trending toward tyranny. (The need for enthymeme, philip)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is true?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the examples of example in the rhetoric are far more tenuous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't keep up!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what do you mean, my friend?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">regarding enthymeme in metaphysics, does Aquinus use it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is nothing impossible about it, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3366" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-26T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-26T18:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do I read 2k comments and catch up because Philip D. Knuffke has joined the conversation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i don't recall off the top of my head, what did you have in mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha, just get your feet wet with the last coulple hundred and hop in. I actually never even saw the slideshow. mea culpa.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">eg. Aesop's fables</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">could you say more what you're thinking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree Philip, the enthymeme needs to be cross-references with the treatise on valid and invalid syllogisms in the Analytics, for immoral persuasion relies on a flawed implied premise, as an imperfect syllogism relies on a flawed explicit premise.<br />But the book of Rhetoric introduces the enthymeme by name as a kind of truncated syllogism, the major premise of which is implied. <br />Then something very fantastical happens. In On the Motion of Animals, or in the book which goes by that name, the enthymeme is described in a metaphor of the joint in the leg of an animal: the implied major is like the lower part of the limb, the minor explicit term is like the upper part of the limb, and when the two terms align around the middle joint, the leg straightens out, causing the animal to spring. The conclusion is the act. The implied major sits firm on an immovable rock, which is an ethical edifice, or an uncaused cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahahaha<br />rich. off to Mass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maxims, anecdotes, Aesop's fables used as examples from which to derive decisions for future action.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We use rhetoric, metaphor and logic altogether in metaphysics. We must, because man knows with his soul, which is all of reason, will and imagination together. The sapiential philosophies use all three. In fides et ratio, and lumen fidei, for instance, when writing in the form of a sapiential philosophy, we see the pope write in enthymeme, metaphor and syllogism all at the same time.<br />I would be happy to send you a few examples in a bit. We went over this a bit in a previous discussion with Ferrier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand. Does the holy father make one argument to be an enthymeme, syllogism, and metaphor all at the same time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As to your earlier comment, I still maintain that you are giving a typical characteristic of an enthymeme as a definition of it. the text from the parts of animals is an illustration of that typical attribute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philip are you talking to pb? I guess i will restate my question to your question: do you think Aquinus uses rhetoric in metaphysics? I have certainly seen Aristotle use rhetoric in his work but have not read his meta. in a long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what about this: do you think that enthymeme is a species of syllogism? what are all the species of syllogism? if it isn't a species, why do you include it syllogism in the definition as the genus? and if it is a species, why do you divide the species against the genus when you listed enthymeme, syllogism, and metaphor all together?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i cant see anything pb writes. (I assume that is why michael was laughing.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger: yes I was. and yes, probably. why can't you see Mr. Bonaventure?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3381" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HE BLOCKED ME.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3382" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take it this conversation was rather heated in the distant past.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Its the only reason i joined the thread. I saw TAC alum beating up an imaginary person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you are a TAC alumnus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">3494</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3386" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">he blocked me before. I am anathema to pope pb, i presume, because i compared the CCC to the catechism of Trent on another thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-26T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-26T18:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The schism rocked the facebook world</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T18:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am not TAC. Which adds to the irony. And i had come to his defence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, back to our calm and dispassionate discussion: I was thinking that were you or I to write a paper on a metaphysical topic, we would for sure pay attention to rhetorical details. why is that? I suggested that it was because our will and emotions can help or hinder our intellectual endeavors, so we must take that aspect of the reader into account.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do you think Thomas did this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aslo, maybe we could say that rhetoric moves the will (and emotions) of the audience, but through the mediation of the imagination; hence good writing makes parallel scentence structure for parallel ideas and uses repetition and so on. well, the intellect is also moved by the imagination in a certain way, so to the extent that it is, the way you order your imaginings matters. but this managed by rhetoric. therfore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-26T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-26T19:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No more posting the number of comments AS a comment! It's cheating!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he will often pull this trick. he'll support the major premise of an article's main syllogism above it, and he'll support the minor premise of an article's main syllogism below it, so that the two premises of the main syllogism are placed right next to each other at the center of the corpus--a rhetorical stroke of genius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm talking about St. Thomas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Pope in his encyclical uses the metaphor, the enthymeme and the syllogism all at the same time, in the same sentence and paragraph. Then he uses the conclusion thereof and does it again, introducing established principles of sacred theology, to shed new light of Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is the same argument all three at once, Mr. Bonaventure?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, rhetoric moves through the heart. Poetry/metaphor through the imagination; logic through reason. But they all have the same form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, the same is all three at once. It is an appeal to the whole of the person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is he just making it easier to follow the argument, do you think?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that seems impossible to me. but you never answered my series of questions above. what is your solution to the difficulties?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see the difficulty. I only see that he orders the argument in such away as to make it most easily grasped by the reader. What am I missing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3402" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">once you solve those, I would like to see your analysis of the proposed argument which is at once a metaphor, a syllogism, and an enthymeme. I think it is possible to appeal to the whole person, by the way, without this three arguments in one business.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are talking to PB again, aren't you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger: which is the art that teaches the rules of how todo that if not rhetoric?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and yes, to Mr. Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree. But that is not employment of ethos, pathos, or ethymeme. Certainly, I agree that any writer, even the best, will take into consideration the reader or audience. Thus, it is true that the art of rhetoric should be employed in all writing or speaking (the contrary of which I stated above).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Bonaventure: you seem intent on the correspondence of metaphor to imagination, rhetoric to heart, and logic to reason. But there are a number of difficulties in this. First, the soul of a rhetorical argument, says aristotle, is the logos, the appeal to reason, and the pathos and the ethos are subservient to this in good rhetoric and override it in bad rhetoric. Further, rhetoric moves the imagination too, as for example the parallel structures, groupings of threes, etc. these move and delight our imaginations first, and through our imaginations move our wills and emotions. Also, your division is unclear because, logic includes rhetoric and poetry as is clear from St. Thomas's proemium to the posterior analytics. Again, if we were to choose between imagination and heart to pair poetry with, isn't heart the natural choice? tragedy, for example, is defined by the emotions of pity and fear; the heart enters the very definitions of the species of poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger: the structure, cadence, etc. of speech moves us for sure; though you've got a great point. it doesn't fit well into any of the traditional means of persuasion. I wonder where aristotle put these considerations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rhetoric is the "art of persuasion according to the available means" (Aristotle, de rhetorica). People are persuaded in three ways: by an appeal to the reason (via logic, and the enthymeme has been called the "rhetorical syllogism), the emotions (including anger, pity, etc.), and "ethos" (trust in the speaker's good will, good sense, and good character). Rhetoric is not philosophy, but the good rhetorician knows his philosophy. Rhetoric is the great civic art. And while rhetoric may involve poetry, and poetry may be rhetorical, they are too different things. The aim of poetry is beauty; the aim of rhetoric is persuasion. The aim of logic is demonstration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3410" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's not me, btw. That's just plain ol' Rhet 101. I think people are making things way harder and more complicated than they are, or need to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the aim of poetry is various and employs more or less rhetoric both as to the aim, and depending what kind it is (such as a Platonic dialogue or a tragedy or comedy).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T19:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The aim of poetry as such as beauty. When it's aim is to persuade, it becomes rhetoric. Poetic rhetoric, but rhetoric.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And let's be clear: I mean rhetoric as in the whole shebang discipline. Not just "schemes and tropes." Just clarifying. (That was a Middle Ages / Renaissance corruption.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Over and out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some poetry is praise, other poetry can be declamation (satire). It is not all one thing. What is the end of tragedy? (And the Middle ages and Renaissance thought it was much more than that -- it is more of late 19th century corruption).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Mr. Bonaventure I will wait for your answers to my questions. Please don't leave me hanging.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan, does Plato employ rhetoric in his dialogues which are philosophical but at the same time unmetered poetry of a kind (which seems to fall under Aristotle's divisions: remember too, he says poetry employs rhetoric)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the three cannot be separated; they go together because the soul is one. And the good, true and beautiful can only be fully attained in unity, and each appeals to these parts of the soul. Logic syllogism reason true. Poetry metaphor imagination beauty. Rhetoric enthymeme will good. They all have the same form. Different matter.<br />There is such as think as a poetic or rhetorical demonstration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3419" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is truly astonishing to me. I have never heard anyone else claim this. Are there any prominent thinkers such as St. Thomas or Aristotle who think this is the case? or do they in fact hold otherwise? besides, you are still refusing to answer my questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly Megan Caughron, have you studied Rhetoric at more than the freshman level of college?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3421" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:49:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am beginning to suspect that you can't...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3422" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, what was your question, Phillip. I have been coming and going?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there was a list of them. I can copy and paste them if you want, or you could just read back up a few comments. they were about the relation of enthymeme to syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">here you go: what about this: what are all the species of syllogism? do you think that enthymeme is one of the species of syllogism? if it isn't a species, why do you include it syllogism in the definition as the genus? and if it is a species, why do you divide the species against the genus when you listed enthymeme, syllogism, and metaphor all together? you would never make a list of isosceles, equilateral, scalene, and triangle!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T19:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and here are the objections to the proposed division of metaphor, enthymeme, and syllogism and the corresponding powers of the soul: you seem intent on the correspondence of metaphor to imagination, rhetoric to heart, and logic to reason. But there are a number of difficulties in this. First, the soul of a rhetorical argument, says aristotle, is the logos, the appeal to reason, and the pathos and the ethos are subservient to this in good rhetoric and override it in bad rhetoric. Further, rhetoric moves the imagination too, as for example the parallel structures, groupings of threes, etc. these move and delight our imaginations first, and through our imaginations move our wills and emotions. Also, your division is unclear because, logic includes rhetoric and poetry as is clear from St. Thomas's proemium to the posterior analytics. Again, if we were to choose between imagination and heart to pair poetry with, isn't heart the natural choice? tragedy, for example, is defined by the emotions of pity and fear; the heart enters the very definitions of the species of poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plato is a funny case. He is a philosopher who uses rhetoric and is rendered poetically (in form). But saying we "use rhetoric" when we communicate is not a big deal. Saying a poet "uses rhetoric" is like saying a dancer "uses work." Incidentally, the reason it's important to separate rhet from philosophy is because rhet conceives language as power. Severing language from truth would be the risk (hence Plato's concern about rhetoric, and the modern fascination with it). Side-note: poetry used as rhetoric has a name, and that name is propaganda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Im just throwing this out there in case someone finds it clarifying. If you dont....*airy wave of hand*.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T20:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan, I apologize for the lack of manners from Mr. Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aw thanks, Mr Knuffke! Nice of you to say thay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Logos is the first form of rhetoric which links it to logic and syllogism. By definition, it is the art of getting someone to DO something, so its aim is the will/heart. Logos informs the art with morality and reasonability.<br />Poetry leads to beauty, as Megan points out, the aim of poetry is the beautiful. The form of poetry is the metaphor, which is informed by the Logos again, in the form of syllogism. For metaphor requires an implied premise as well as the metaphor itself.<br />Beauty is first an appeal to the imagination. Beauty becomes more than a gazing when it is joined with truth and goodness. Unless this happens, beauty turns ugly.<br />These three things go together. If they fall apart, the good and true become ugly. Having the same form keeps them together.<br />Logos is the first form of all three.<br />Plato is a good example, as Megan points out. They all go together, so people mistake him sometimes for a poet, sometimes for a philosopher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok, since you deal with rhetoric first, would you mind answering my questions about enthymeme and syllogism? Everyone agrees that enthymeme is present in rhetoric, but i think the claim that syllogism is there is controversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3432" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T20:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then we can have a conversation about how metaphors are arguments and whether or not they also are syllogisms or imply syllogisms. I think that is even more controversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3433" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T20:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">what if we begin with this question: you say an enthymeme is a syllogism with a premise implied--well, are you saying that the enthymeme is a kind of syllogism, a species of syllogism? If so, would you mind listing all of them and we can examine by what they are distinguished the one from the other. This would, I think, clarify our discussion immensely. As Plato teaches us in the Protagoras: no more long speeches, just dialectical questioning and answering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Firstly, Aristotle states that enthymeme is a kind of syllogism. Langley agrees. Aristotle describes it is a truncated syllogism with an implied premise.<br />OK so far?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, where does he say that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T20:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if it might be best to say that syllogism there is meant equivocally, meaning "argument proceeding from general truths" or something like that. In this case, though, the truths aren't completely universal--they're signs and likelihoods as is taught in the formal treatise on arguments, the prior analytics. what say you, reasonable?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-26T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-26T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan, i am not going to fight you, except one thing. For Aristotle, rhetoric includes more than you admit. Preaching is a part of the art of rhetoric. Persuation is not merely aimless power. It includes convincing others of truth and convicting them of sin orally or by writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rhetoric Bk. II.<br />Well, argument proceeding from general truths is dialectic. This is what Aristotle's Topics is about. This is the form that Thomas uses in the Summa. This relies on the form of logical syllogism. He also incorporates dogma. <br />Rhetoric is the counterpart to this. If all good men desire good things, and milk is good for you, then it is reasonable to drink milk.<br />The enthymeme is Milk is good for you.<br />It is reasonable because it is in the form of logos. It is a kind of syllogism. Same form as a logical syllogism, different matter. Different matter because deals with those political things other than philosophy and revelation that cannot be demonstrated with certainty, but cleaved to because they are good and desirable, or it can be used to persuade someone to do something good that is in keeping with a golden rule.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T20:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Bonaventure, what if I proceed more directly agianst your position like this: the fact that you state in spoken words the full two premises of an argument is utterly accidental to the reasoning that goes on in your mind, and therefore that fact cannot be a specific difference of any species of syllogism. I tried to give an account of what syllogism might mean there, but it seems absurd to say that it means the same as when said of, say, the demonstrative syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even more fundamentally, the the two axioms, if you will, of the third act of reason, which are the foundation of the syllogism (the dici de omni and dici de nullo) cannot apply to the contingent truths about which rhetoric deals. You simply cannot make those kinds of statements about human behavior. Try to make a syllogism the conclusion of which is the US should go to war.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because for you to have certain knowledge, where the conclusion is absolutely certain, you need two explicit premises and a middle term.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T21:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as if you want to jump from A to B, you need a limb with two parts and a joint in it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3443" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T21:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I maintain that the certitude of the conclusion is caused by two CERTAIN premises which it so happens usually must be stated, though not always. Anyone with experience of Euclid's Elements has made not only syllogisms, but demonstrative syllogisms so fast that they could not state in words at the pace with which their minds were drawing necessary conclusions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You need two, in other words, so that you know the cause on which the new knowledge depends. The conclusion is the new knowledge. It is derived from the major premise through a middle term to the minor premise. Metaphor and syllogism do the same thing, only premises are implied.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">have you studied the Elements of Euclid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3446" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T21:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you always need to premises, the question is whether you need to explicitly state them out loud, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T21:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I have seen these fast thinkers. I myself was not one of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3448" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T21:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to correct something I said a bit ago. It isn't the certitude of the premises that cause an argument to be a syllogism, it is the universality of one of them, that is the real cause for the conclusion following of necessity. Whether or not the conclusion is itself necessarily true depends on the certitude of the premises. The enthymeme proceeds from premises that are general but not universal, and therefore the conclusion does not follow of necessity. The dialectical syllogism proceeds from universal truths but only probable ones, so the conlusion necessarily follows, but is only probable or likely. The demonstrtative syllogism proceeds from universal certain truths so its conclusion necessarily follows and is necessarily true. What do you think of my division?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-26T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-26T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can continue this later--I need to sleep. Good night!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aah you let him off the hook</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and I think that's right. I think for scientific knowledge, you just need to see two premises and a middle and a conclusion in your mind. You do not need to speak it, unless you are demonstrating a scientific proof to another.<br />The unstated premise of the enthymeme is not known to be universally true. It is just a maxim that is politically accepted by a majority. You do not want to say it as a premise, because you are not trying to get someone to agree that something is universally true, you are just trying to move someone to do something. Instead of stating a major premise, you want to build ethos.<br />With a metaphor, you definitely do not want to state the major premise, because it is not an appeal to the real but the imaginary through an analogy of inverse predication.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^so is this a complete waffle from the before position?^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger - you are entirely right, and I don't know what I said to make you think I would disagree w that statement. Rhetoric is powerful and practical, and can be used for evil and should be used for good. Sigh. I thought that was obvious....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3454" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T22:03:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow...I just have one observation, per Aquinas. We can divide logic into two parts, one reason insofar as it is an act of understanding, and this is twofold. One is the act of simple apprehension, which is dealt with in the Predicaments (Categories). The other is that of judgment, which is treated in Peri Hermenias (de Interpretatione)<br />The other part is reason insofar as it proceeds from one thing to another, and this can be divided into three. The first is when reason proceeds, with logical necessity, to new truth with certitude, and this is called judicative or analytical logic. And this is divided into two, one is formal logic, i.e. the syllogism which is dealt with in the Prior analytics. The other is material logic, which deals with the soundness of premises, and this in the Posterior Analytics.<br />Secondly, reason may be led to an affirmation by probability, and this is "inventive logic" which can be divided into three parts. Faith and opinion is when reason is totally inclined to one part of a contradiction, although "with fear of the other" (formidine alterius), and this is treated by the Topics.<br />Secondly, there is suspicion when reason is inclined to one side, but not totally. And this is treated by the Rhetoric.<br />In estimation the mind is inclined to some part of a contradiction because of some beautiful aspect or representation, and the Poetics treat of this.<br />Lastly reason may be led to error, and this is treated in the Sophistical Refutations.<br />The difference between poetry and rhetoric is this, rhetoric still involves a form of illative reasoning, albeit incomplete, but poetry does not elucidate an argument formally, but rather gives an inclination through attraction, by its beauty. <br />You are all very welcome (I recently reread Aquinas' commentaries on the Peri hermenias and Posterior analytics)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T21:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua for Pope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3456" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T21:57:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">however, appeal to authority is the weakest form of argument, according to Boethius....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3457" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T21:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did anyone mention surpassing 3500? I'm really grateful this conversation is still going strong. I feel like someone should be assigning readings to accompany the Neverending seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, for the Orator, it is often inopportune to state a major premise. The threat of an enemy can sometimes not be stated to a civilised audience. It is however imperative that majority support be formed. So a variety of means may be employed. One may persuaded to vote for a leader because he sees it as a way out of economic hardship, but the hidden premise may be that a change of party is needed for national security.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3459" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll make the case for taking out some philosophy from Senior seminar. Hegel. The philosophy of history sets itself up nicely for Feuerbach and thence Marx, but Phenomenology of Spirit is too dense to be treated in such a short time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3460" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-26T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-26T22:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think you're right Michael Beitia - we should probably read Hegel more slowly - as an extra 2 credit hour course....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, just take out Phenomenology of Spirit and replace it with Heidegger later on. It's a simple fix</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(still trying to stuff "What is Metaphysics" in)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or perhaps I should respond to Scottrine:<br />voting is for chumps</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3464" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-26T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-26T22:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you understand anything after Hegel without reading Hegel? I think also more waffles should be added to the curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3465" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">did they still have those belgian waffle makers on Sundays when you went there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hegel was amazing. What are you talking about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did my thesis on Hegel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you say it should be removed or did I miss something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just Phenomenology of Spirit, not Philosophy of History</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3470" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also yes there were waffles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we didn't have any belgian waffle makers tho... just the regular ones</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3472" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3473" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I loved those do it yourself waffle things..... if you could fight through the tutor's children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3474" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-26T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-26T22:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do think we need to take the Phenomenology of Spirit out, unless we're going to spend 8 weeks on it. People make the mistake of thinking that because it's one of his earliest works that it's, if not easy, at least more approachable than the Encyclopedia or the Science of Logic. That seems false to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3475" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T22:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">730 mass. problem solved. plus, you have all day to study and can do a full hour of adoration too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3476" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I used to go to the Indult at 1:30 in Ventura....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">730 was trid my last year there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">only once a month while I was there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3479" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T22:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hegel's Phil of Right should be read. TAC cant handle Phenom of Spirit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3480" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, on topic, Daniel, that's why I maintain keeping philosophy of history. It is easier, and leads well into Feuerbach and Marx</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the morning mass switched to always trid now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeeessssss JAson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so I heard, Nina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3484" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-26T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-26T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to see a bit of the history of philosophy, too, if you ask me: but I think that would be contrary to TAC, to read Hegel, e.g., on Aristotle's Metaphysics. Cool, but contrary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3485" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't write my thesis on Hegel, but some years ago I did make a Hegelian facebook album, illustrated with TACers and unicycles. <br />https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=8717309355&set=a.8717104355.14543.506859355&type=3&theater<br />Roy and Pat Ride a Unicycle<br />One self-consciousness realizes the other self-consciousness has a unicycle... <br />Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it has come outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost its own self, since it finds itself as an other being; secondly, it has thereby sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as essentially real, but sees its own self in the other.<br />It will, in the first place, present the aspect of the disparity of the two, or the break-up of the middle term into the extremes, which, qua extremes, are opposed to one another, and of which one is merely recognized, while the other only recognizes.<br />With commentary by Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel<br />By: Catherine Ryland</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard because Metaphysics is in senior philosophy, so one would have to line it up later in the year, but that's when seminar FINALLY makes it toward the 20th century</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3487" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-26T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-26T22:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We should probably just create a new school - maybe a 12 year program?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3488" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey - just trying to tie up loose Petersonian threads</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3489" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T22:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Society on an upward corkscrew path, thesis-antithesis- synthesis, and zeitgeist. And self-actualizing world spirit. Thus my comprehension of Hegel. .... More time was probably warranted. Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you forgot the world spirit realizing itself in freedom (if we want sound bites)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3491" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No she said that. Can't you read, Beetia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3492" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T22:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm indifferent about the waffles. But I get these weird craving for the tamales they used to serve, of ALL things - !</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Sorry...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They never had tamales when we were there. Or ostrich.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"This truth of necessity, therefore, is Freedom: and the truth of substance is the Notion - an independence which, though self-repulsive into distinct independent elements, yet in that repulsion is self-identical, and in the movement of reciprocity still at home and conversant only with itself"<br />Hegel - Logic 158</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of us, only the class of '02 remembers the ostrich I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3497" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, Matthew J. Peterson and I have a story about ostrich</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3498" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-26T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-26T22:26:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the early 90's, there used to be a Sunday-night 'mystery meat' which we took to calling goat-stag.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3500" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Erin Turrentine" data-date="2014-08-26T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erin Turrentine at 2014-08-26T22:26:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">'03 here. Ostrich was the mystery meat of our freshman year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3501" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Erin Turrentine" data-date="2014-08-26T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erin Turrentine at 2014-08-26T22:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or was it the "chicken"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3502" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll leave it to him. He was the one with the keys to the kitchen over Christmas break....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yes, I mean '03.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Erin and I overlap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't there for the '02 class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erin Turrentine" data-date="2014-08-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erin Turrentine at 2014-08-26T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Barely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another reason rhetoricians do not reveal a major premise is because an audience is not moved to the good all at once, but gradually. Whereas scientific knowledge is grasped all at once, a speaker may lead an audience away from violence by telling them about beekeeping and the warring bees, as Virgil does in Georgics IV.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3508" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-26T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-26T22:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Class of '09 here. We dubbed one of the meals "highlighter chicken"... anyone else remember that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but I may have been gone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Peregott.... we can't study theology, or poetics (or literature) or philosophy..... so how'd we screw up math?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3511" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T22:33:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once did a though experiment about the ideal program....even packed more tightly than TAC, it took 10 years, and there was still stuff I wanted to add.<br />Ostrich meat is good btw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nick Ruedig" data-date="2014-08-26T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nick Ruedig at 2014-08-26T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember highlighter chicken! (that stuff is scary, no joke)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3513" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T22:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is part bootcamp, part appetizer, part party<br />I vaguely remember the ostrich....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3514" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-26T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-26T22:39:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">You always knew it was ostrich when we had "meat tacos" etc. Like we couldn't tell the difference between genus and species.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3515" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T22:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And speaking of rhetoric, how 'bout that "gourmet potluck." Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I did not mean to waffle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T22:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too much math, makes B'tia a dull boy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3518" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too little makes Peregrott incapable of rational discourse</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3519" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz: ostrich meat may be good once in a while. Not for three straight months....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3520" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T22:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anybody remember the shark steaks?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-26T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-26T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not really</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3522" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T22:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd support Julia Child being added to the curriculum...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3523" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T22:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Elizabeth David would be better I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3524" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T22:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brillat-Savarin for real though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3525" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brillat-Savarin is actually read in a regular elective at a great booksy place I know of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3526" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T23:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rather than extend the program, the obvious next step to me is to make a grad school program. Although you'd have to stipulate living off campus so that the grad students didn't go insane.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">also, have we broached the topic of electives?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And from what I understand, the food is better than it used to be. But that didn't stop us from complaining about it every day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3530" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Elizabeth David would be a phenomenal substitute for Emma. Anything would really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3531" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-26T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-26T23:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just so long as there's a practicum involved. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3532" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T23:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Electives?!? BURN HIM.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3533" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yep I went there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-26T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-26T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. John's in Santa Fe has two grad programs, I think. One is great books West and one is great books east (including a language requirement).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so, how about electives? An idea whose time has come.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3536" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">have I mentioned electives?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-26T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-26T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ancient Greek and Hebrew are obvious candidates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T23:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually am against adding electives to the undergrad though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3539" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of the best things about the program was that you could talk to anyone about anything you were taking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3540" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chinese philosophy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3541" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T23:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Electives would work well in a graduate program though, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3542" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan has already voted for the Taoteching</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Popping in with a new look.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . and off to Rosary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3545" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, the Analects and the Mencius... and at least one Chinese historical work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm....I think I could structure my 10 years toward a PhD....4, 2 and 4... but what would be the degree? Philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3547" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Truth"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3548" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:21:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">A Ph.D. in Liberal Arts . . . I'm sure that'd be employable</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was looking in the Notre Dame course catalog once and that was the name of one of the classes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suggest starting a grad school or institute in Pittsburgh, and then we can steal Dr Wiker and Dr Sanford (who has Plato and Aristotle literally memorized in Greek, line by line) from Steubenville part time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3551" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was the definition of a facepalm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, at CUA, a Ph.D. implies seven years of coursework + masters thesis/dissertation. So I doubt anyone would do a 10 year program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but Nina don't you worry that the Chinese would just get a straw man reading for the sake of dismissing them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(seven years: 4 at TAC, 3 at CUA)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3555" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, Hegel is European and he doesnt exactly get a fair reading usually there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I doubt you could dismiss them once you actually read them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3557" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The "actually read" is often the problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have only just started really getting into it but I find Confucianism fascinating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dual Ph.Ds...maybe a Ph.D and an STL.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr Berquist once told me that he thought that Chinese philosophy ws sententious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, yeah. it's written in a totally different style.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3562" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw there is a wonderful book which reads Aristotle in comparison with Song Neo-Confucianism, called "Aristotle's Man" by SRL Clark. I highly recommend it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it might already be on my list, haha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3564" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T23:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read Hegel...I remember the moment something clicked and understanding of him came....it shocked me and I threw the book against the wall, behind my couch....not what I understood, but only I was startled by the click of reason...wasn't expecting to understand a word...maybe that is part of the issue, he is sort of written off as unreadable before we read him...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3565" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That would probably be giving math and science short shrift.<br />How about a series of Ph.Ds<br />1. Math<br />2. Biology<br />3. Chemistry<br />4. Physics<br />5. Philosophy (i.e. Metaphysics)<br />6. Theology<br />IT could be called "The Eternal Student Program"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3566" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am starting with this for context and ideas for further reading http://www.amazon.com/Sources-Chinese.../dp/0231109393<br />Sources of Chinese Tradition, Vol. 1<br />www.amazon.com<br />A collection of seminal primary readings on the social, intellectual, and religious traditions of China, Sources of Chinese Tradition, Volume 1 has been widely used and praised for almost forty years as an authoritative resource for scholars and students and as a thorough and engaging introductio...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">when I first visited TAC aeons ago, the guy I stayed with had Hegel on his desk and I asked him about it (I was going to be impressed that TAC read Hegel) and he said, "oh no, dont worry, no one has to read him"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3568" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-26T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-26T23:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The only program where you get the pleasure of writing six dissertations"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found Hegel sort of poetic rather than philosophical. But maybe that was my imagination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3570" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, I've been studying Chinese philosophy for about 15 years now (and learning classical Chinese) pm me if you need recommendations</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-26T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-26T23:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh wow that's awesome! I definitely have questions about where to get started with classical Chinese.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3572" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T23:30:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, why don't we just start a Catholic commune while we are at it...come, educate, get degrees, and also, teach, and procreate, and go to Church...it would be like über TAC...after all 6 PhD's! Not enough...what about Canon law</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3573" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:34:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Publish, Pontificate, Procreate or Perish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T23:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, I just had a very frightening image.....<br />...anyhow, switching gears (post padding mostly), Mr. Escalante you and I should discuss this (unknown to me) delving into the East sometime....when I am not so broke I would end up stranded halfway on the way to Berkeley. I have been reading some of the Upanishads recently, thought of reading Gong Sun Long Zi, but didn't find it in English. It brings back certain pleasant memories with the pre-socratics, in many ways...only in fuller form....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-26T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-26T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">anytime Joshua you know where I live</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too much, makes B'tia an arrogant jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-26T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-26T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, that's right. You were an arrogant jerk BEFORE you went to Thomas Aquinas College. The mathematical extremism just brought it all to completion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3578" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.theonion.com/.../tenth-circle-added-to.../...<br />Tenth Circle Added To Rapidly Growing Hell<br />www.theonion.com<br />CITY OF DIS, NETHER HELL—After years of construction, Corpadverticus, the new circle of Hell, finally opened its doors Monday.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3579" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-26T23:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Rapidly Growing Hell" gets my vote for the alternate name of this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3580" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I HAVE found most arrogant jerks that graduated TAC came that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Including me of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3582" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-26T23:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_3583" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-26T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-26T23:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No scotch?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Valeatis omnes. In crastinum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3585" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-26T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-26T23:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the best reaching 4000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-26T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-26T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey guys cool conversation; what's it about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3587" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-26T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-26T23:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">wow thomism and ancient chinese thought</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3588" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-26T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-26T23:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">that, for the record, is my jam</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3589" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-26T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-26T23:56:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am going for my evening constitutional....and by that I mean pray rosary, smoke cigarettes....very TAC of me<br />Oh good ole Fr. Buckley. Saw him this Sunday. He related a story of a visiting Jewish professor who was shocked by the students smoking. Fr. Buckley said "See, at your place you encourage fornication and prohibit smoking. We prohibit fornication and encourage smoking"<br />Sums its up very well....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-26T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-26T23:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clearly not for me, then; as a good liberal I think smoking is gross</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3591" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-26T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-26T23:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel P. O'Connell - all I can really contribute right now is a pic of my drink of choice each evening. No scotch tonight, but even if I was going to have some I wouldn't show it. I mean, three nights IN A ROW? Scandalous.<br />I should have posted the actual bowl of popcorn consumed last night with my kids.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TACers think fornication is gross. So there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3593" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-27T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-27T00:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So might I think, if I were surrounded by TACers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3594" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah? Well...<br />...<br />...<br />[wearied whisper voice] sex. week. [/wearied whisper voice]<br />I got nothin.'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3595" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC women are among the loveliest in the world, Mr Gallagher</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3596" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and that's a manifest fact</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3597" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the dudes however...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3598" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-27T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-27T00:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">wait there are women at TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We didn't have sex weeks, my friend. We had smoking years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-27T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-27T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly my own dislike for Sex Week is far outweighed by my delight at watching everyone else wring their hands over it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3601" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel so bad for the ladies of TAC. I always have. JA is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(70, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know - which is why I annoyingly bring it up. Because it is the asinine refutation of everything you say in the vulgar media driven world of shadoes in which we live.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beauties and the Beasts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so what about electives?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, I have to leave this blasphemy and go finish syllabi for the YOUTH OF AMERICA. LEADERS who think GLOBALLY in an increasingly diverse world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3606" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:15:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">There was a rough patch, but it looks like we've recovered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3607" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kevin, thomism and ancient chinese thought is just the latest topic this thread has attempted to assassinate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3608" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do want an intro syllabus for Thomism and chinese phil</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^pm me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T00:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, for the record, a while back, Megan Caughran claimed that rhetoric can be used for ill as effectively as it can for good. This is false. Aristotle in fact underscores the nexus between the Orator of good character, the good end desired, and effective persuasion. <br />I am not sure if TAC teaches that ill ends may be the result of good rhetoric, but I do know they do not really teach rhetoric beyond the freshman year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3611" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-27T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-27T00:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">best done separately; the ancient stuff is too different from thomism, the lixue stuff too similar; either way it would confuse students</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3612" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^coward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3613" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Earlier we circled each other on the relation of philosophy and sacred theology. Then there was some banter about literature and fixin' TAC's curriculum. Then we took a pass at rhetoric and poetics. Now we're up to Thomism and Chinese philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3614" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a sneaking suspiscion that as time increases, the probability that any this thread will touch upon any topic approaches 1.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3615" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just ran across this gem that is relevant to an earlier time:<br />"Of course prophecy is a subject which is properly theological but in the measure that theology is an acquired supernatural habitus, it will principally call upon philosophy to make the truths which are beyond us more suited to us, more explicit." -- Msgr. Dionne, "The Necessity of Logic"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T00:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's winning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3617" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:21:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">The people who stay away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3618" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-27T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-27T00:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yale is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3619" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">unlike Edward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3620" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:22:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been here since the beginning, and read all 3,712 comments</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-08-27T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-27T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#winning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's just a street carnival, relax</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact Jason Van Boom tried to kill this thread about 3500 comments ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3624" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh look - I'm done with my syllabus<br />http://supreme.findlaw.com/documents/federalist/toc.html<br />FEDERALIST PAPERS - TABLE OF CONTENTS<br />supreme.findlaw.com<br />Find a local lawyer and free legal information at FindLaw.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I have to do is write THE WHOLE TIME at the top of the page and we're good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The amazing thing is that we all, I assume, live within 3 time zones (Pater excepted?), and yet overnight this thread doesn't stop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3627" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jason is in Estonia or somewhere like that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are a few Europeans. Jason Van Boom -- yes, Estonia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm really excited about this book, speaking of China:<br />http://supreme.findlaw.com/documents/federalist/toc.html<br />FEDERALIST PAPERS - TABLE OF CONTENTS<br />supreme.findlaw.com<br />Find a local lawyer and free legal information at FindLaw.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3630" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine Bonaventure's powers of endurance are phenomenal: he takes it all, ad hominems, insults, refutations without ever giving up a point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3631" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously - this one:<br />http://mychinesebooks.com/frmo-yan-grenouilles-la.../...<br />Mo Yan, “Frogs” and birth control policy.<br />mychinesebooks.com<br />Mo Yan is probably the greatest living writer of Chinese nationality. His latest novel, "Frogs", is devoted to his aunt ,77 years old, who helped his birth - like 9983 other babies - and, half angel, half-demon, was also responsible for the local birth control policy. As such, she has performed thou…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3632" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And he must live in 3 time zones</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.spiegel.de/.../nobel-literature-prize-laureate...<br />Nobel Laureate Mo Yan: 'I Am Guilty' - SPIEGEL ONLINE<br />www.spiegel.de<br />For the first time since receiving the Nobel Prize in literature, controversial Chinese author Mo Yan has consented to an interview. Many have accused him of being too close to the regime. But he rejects the charge and finds sharp words for his detractors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mo Yan! he's great</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Republic of Wine is fantastic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ANOTHER poignant error in the Charter of TAC is the definition of wisdom. The college defines metaphysics as qualified wisdom, and revelation as unqualified wisdom. This distinction is false. Even Wisdom as revelation is qualified as a theological virtue of intellectual assent to all that has been revealed, including the theological dogma of grace perfecting nature, and the sacred science perfecting the metaphysical, sapiential sciences. In this light, Fides et Ratio calls for an interaction between sacred theology and more contemporary Christian philosophies to the extent that they are sapiential.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know Edward Fesser (perhaps I should? maybe he is on this thread?) but a local professor just wrote this review of Fesser's book on metaphysics. http://www.catholicworldreport.com/.../metaphysics_and...<br />Metaphysics and the Case Against Scientism | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views<br />www.catholicworldreport.com<br />Metaphysics and the Case Against Scientism Edward Feser’s new book, "Scholastic Metaphysics", makes a strong case for the contemporary relevance of St. Thomas Aquinas’s philosophical reflections on Aristotle Christopher S. Morrissey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feser. He's a champ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe tag him on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3640" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, I don't think you know what "qualified" means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is nicely coupled with Lumen Fidei, an encyclical that has a metaphor right in its title.<br />The point being that love is the center of Faith, and Faith perfects reason, and math has nought to do with love, so while it may express the laws of the universe, it can enslave the spirit of man when offered in disproportionate helping.<br />Good night, ladies;<br />Ladies, good night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Feser - but he doesn't have a personal FB account, I don't think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is almost embarrassing to allow outsiders in on this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kevin is an outsider, and how</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3646" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Almost. I welcome the Gentiles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3647" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T00:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is STILL ALIVE?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone must post a summary about every 500 posts for the sake of newcomers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3649" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We won't be judged any worse than we already are, really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan - it has a life of its own.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3651" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T00:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um Megan Baird - this thread is outside of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At this point, the count is all that matters </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3653" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Thomas Quackenbush" data-date="2014-08-27T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-27T00:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The summary would be the length of the reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3654" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T00:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It might even be longer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3655" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:46:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">like an Ent's name</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is that our summary would not match Peregrine (Scott)'s. So 2 summaries?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3657" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Thomas Quackenbush" data-date="2014-08-27T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-27T00:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which would actually be awesome for the length of the thread, if the summarizer broke it into individually-posted bullet points.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas, what do you think of electives for TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For sure. that was a problem earlier on (lengthy posts) we'd be over 5000 if they bulleted it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3660" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T00:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somebody should print this thread out and create a volume of 'TAC Dialogues.'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3661" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T00:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd be interested to know how many unique commenters there have been on this thread. Comment statistics for individuals would be cool too. Ed Langley, I'm banking on you having some sort of magic math formula/graph to make this a reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3662" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-27T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-27T01:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someday someone will write a TAC Thesis on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3663" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T01:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I go for my second Master's, this will be the subject of my dissertation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3664" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are 112 unique commenters (up to my last graph)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3665" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:20:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The top ten are:<br />615 Peregrine Bonaventure<br />435 Michael Beitia<br />305 John Ruplinger<br />234 JA Escalante<br />234 Edward Langley<br />196 Daniel Lendman<br />178 Catherine Ryland<br />142 Matthew J. Peterson<br />122 Pater Edmund<br />97 Isak Benedict<br />92 Sam Rocha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(there's eleven in the list because JA and I were tied)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">93</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">94</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">95</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">96</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">97</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">98</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">99</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3674" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">100</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3675" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How's the syllabi coming along, Sam Rocha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3676" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:23:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those who attempt to game the system will be disqualified</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Finished. Sent. Now on to this grant and a shitty preface...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3678" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T01:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Edward, you're no fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3679" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:25:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward tally the ad hominems</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3680" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd probably get an automatic Ph.D. in Computer Science if I could do that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3681" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there an appeals process?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3682" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T01:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tally the misspellings of Beitia's name...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3683" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Next ten are:<br />91 Jody Haaf Garneau<br />84 Nina Rachele<br />80 Marina Shea<br />77 Lauren Ogrodnick<br />62 Philip D. Knuffke<br />60 Joel HF<br />49 Megan Caughron<br />39 Jason Van Boom<br />37 Daniel P. O'Connell<br />33 Tom Sundaram</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-27T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-27T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me! Did I win something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3685" class="entry odd" data-likes="11" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:30:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">the first time ever that Tom Sundaram talked the *least*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3686" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:30:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">i mean this is really a moment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3687" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-27T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-27T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aw it's cause Tom moved continents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3688" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I think Tom Sundaram intentionally unfollowed this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3689" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kinda like Isak Benedict and Jason Van Boom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-27T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-27T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3691" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">When do we organize a conference at TAC on this thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T01:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey I didn't even make the list....but then again, I work 5:30 am to night and don't play around at work....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-27T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-27T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can talk about music in the Aveterna. I've thought about that a lot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I did, but it still popped up in my feed somehow. Maybe too many friends of mine are involved for me to avoid it? I don't get notifications for it any more. Although I do rather want to stay involved. It's kinda fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3695" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The next batch (after which accuracy probably make measurement useless) are:<br />31 Sean Robertson<br />27 Joshua Kenz<br />24 John Kunz<br />20 Tim Cantu<br />20 Clayton Brockman<br />19 Joe Zepeda<br />16 Katie Duda<br />16 Emily Norppa<br />15 Liam Collins<br />15 John Herreid<br />15 Claire Keeler<br />13 Erik Bootsma<br />12 Aaron Gigliotti<br />10 Dominique Martin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3696" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those lists are cool. Of course, they don't account for comment length. If that were to be factored in, I wonder how the standings would change in terms of sheer output?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3697" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Also, FYI: facebook makes you solve a CAPTCHA when you tag a bunch of people)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3698" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe tomorrow, Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3699" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T01:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley, you spammer you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They want to make sure you're not a robot. Did you pass?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3701" class="entry odd" data-likes="11" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:37:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if anyone's unfriended any of us for what we've done to their newsfeed/tickers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, are we robots?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3703" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have a strong suspicion about one participant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3704" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB is definitely a robot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3705" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-27T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-27T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Sam .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3706" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:39:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The humans are dead"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3707" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually I've been grooming this thread to use it to promote my album on Thursday, SUCKAS!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real troll emerges.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3709" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know<br />Pro:<br />If I failed to pass the CAPTCHA, then my comment wouldn't be posted<br />My comment was posted.<br />Therefore, I'm not a robot (notice the enthymeme here)<br />Con:<br />CAPTCHAs are illegible for robots<br />I found Facebook's CAPTCHA nearly illegible.<br />Therefore, I am nearly a robot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3710" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-27T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-27T01:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still convinced at graduation Steubenville kids get the magic power to materialize acoustic guitars at opportune moments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3711" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T01:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My ticker (and hence "following" this thread) automatically stops whenever Peregrine posts....that is how I know he posted. So just block him, and it won't show up in your newfeed/ticker...unless you starting posting in it again...but that counts as consent right?<br />Mr. Benedict, not so sure. Robot originally referred to slave labor, implying actual productivity....is something a robot when it doesn't produce anything of value? It is more like an automate vuvuzela.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3712" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:41:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian Dragoo I know you want in this how long can you resist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3713" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never blocked anyone, ever, in social media. I don't know why not. Mainly because I need any bit of attention I can possibly get.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3714" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:42:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I grew up in the shadow of FUS (three uncles on the faculty: Regis Martin, Mark Roberts and Charles Fisher).<br />Anyway, I went to some show at Franciscan once. It was opened by a student band called "End of Silence," which was slightly ironic since that silence should never have ended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3715" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T01:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When do we organize an All-College seminar about this thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3716" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian what do you think of adding electives at TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3717" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've actually made friends on this thread! Which is cool! Peregrine Falcon tried to friend me too, but I don't like him very much. Maybe he can persuade me with syllogisms why I should be his facebook friend?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward is really all for this notion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woah. That was Oscar's band rock/rap band.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was my era. Did I play that night?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3722" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know, it was followed by a juggling act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't remember Sam?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love juggling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3725" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:44:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because of this thread I befriended Jody Haaf Garneau and found out that my wife is old friends with the present director of evangelization in our diocese.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3726" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some latino dude who was famous for the number of items he could keep in the air.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I was a student at FUS, let's just say that I was not a big fan of sobriety.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3728" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That juggler would have done well on this thread then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3729" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not me. Wrong Mexican.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3730" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T01:45:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really think this thread is the cyber equivalent of chatting on the Smokers' Patio.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3731" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">exactly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3732" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T01:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">DINGDINGDINGDING - we have a WINNER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3733" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam - boy if I had a nickel for every time I heard that one... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3734" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T01:47:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of my favorite moments on smoker's patio was one fine day when two dogs began making love in the middle of campus, right en route to the commons when people were arriving after class and for mass, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3735" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T01:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's Rich Marotti when you need him?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T01:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, thanks to this thread, I can help Sam Rocha make some new friends in the archdiocese. I think I've talked some friends into attending the CD release party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3737" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T01:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think someone should tag some current TAC seniors (or juniors). There must be at least 2 dozen thesis topics here (and part of the research has been done)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3738" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T01:50:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">A mangy mutt who was in desperately in love with a fine, pure bred rottweiler. Just wouldn't leave her alone. And in the midst of this questionably consensual contact there were people walking by en route to the commons in dress code trying to ignore the, ahem, "elephant" in the corner.<br />We at smoker's patio, on the other hand, were not ignoring much of anything. No. No, we were savoring every last drop of those glorious minutes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3739" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-27T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-27T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">O my gosh. No way. What are you all doing here?!?! I seem to have been tagged a few comments ago but not sure why...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because you Dominique Martin made 10 comments. (now 11)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3741" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-27T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-27T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We've run stats on this thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3742" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T01:50:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">This reminded me of this<br />Edward Langley -http://www.politicsforum.org/.../flame_warriors/flame_40.php<br />Peregrine- http://www.politicsforum.org/.../flame_warriors/flame_77.php<br />et alii http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3743" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T01:52:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread comes back to haunt participants</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3744" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Dominique Martin" data-date="2014-08-27T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominique Martin at 2014-08-27T01:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow. So is it still Scott vs. The Reasonable People regarding how non-catholic TAC is or have we moved on to greener pastures? Not that I really want to know. I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3745" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">both</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3746" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T01:53:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed! thesis! Your wife is going to kill all of us!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3747" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T01:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Such violence..."but Christian violence, good violence"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3748" class="entry even" data-likes="14" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:55:00 with 14 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any analysis of the Never-Ending Thread is rendered impossible by the very fact that while said analysis is occurring, the thread itself is growing comment by comment, and hurtling closer and closer towards self-realization and true unity - once a self-and-othering sort of thing, now imminently shedding the skin of duality.<br />Fasten your seatbelts, ladies and gentlemen. We are exiting the cave.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3749" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T01:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">see this just proves Hegel right about everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3750" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T01:57:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well we had the negation of the negation moment a while back.....now we approach the absolute</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">German negativity will make sense of all this nonsense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3752" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T01:58:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I need to retire...I fully expect you guys to hit 5,000 by the time I get home from work tomorrow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3753" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T01:58:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a new era, folks. The World Spirit is about to look in the mirror.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3754" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-08-27T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-08-27T02:00:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahahahaha. Holy cow. This is insane! Here I thought that I might be the last comment back when we were at 300. Oh my.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3755" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T02:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone thought to consult the Guinness now I'm distracted and thinking about beer...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3756" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:02:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Never-Ending Thread knows no "last" comment, Anne Marie. As it is Threadness itself, and that by which all other threads are threads, it does not exist in the particular and therefore cannot be bounded, having no beginning or end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3757" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michaella Pape" data-date="2014-08-27T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(212, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michaella Pape at 2014-08-27T02:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is still going? When I checked it last week there were under 400 comments. This is quite marvelous and impressive!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3758" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T02:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. There is nothing going on here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3759" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel a lot of love in this room right now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-27T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-27T02:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_3761" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:21:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey this seems like the perfect time to tell you all about a very special high-profit, no-risk, multi-level marketing opportunity venture I'm currently working on. It's a simple franchise investment, folks. A small initial gift gets your foot in the door right away, but you've got to act now!<br />Then all you have to do to be a part of it is bring in two - just two - subsequent investors and you'll be increasing your profit in no time. And you don't even have to worry about market saturation - this opportunity exists outside of time!<br />I only mention it because you're my friends and I wanted to give you all the first chance at some World Spirit Networking income!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3762" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T02:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was reflecting on something you said above, Isak. I have been trying to loosely chronicle the "history" of the thread. However, being outside of time, it really isn't history. As I said above, there is an "above and below" but not a before and after, strictly speaking. It strikes me that this bears a remarkable similarity to either the structure of heaven or of hell as Dante recounts them. <br />Tom Sundaram, it might be time for you to tell us about Dante again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3763" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T02:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apparently this is my 198th comment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3764" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T02:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">For my 199th I will say that I am surprised that Aaron Dunkel hasn't been showing us any love on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T02:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't this ^^ cause for disqualification?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3766" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever the structure is Daniel, it's totally not a pyramid!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3767" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(220, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T02:28:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">For my 200th post I will repeat the most important and substantive thing I have contributed to this thread:<br />TAC is the best!!!!!!! <br />I am the best!!!! <br />USA, USA, USA!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T02:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's got a certain style.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3769" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He does. He may be useful to us here at World Spirit Networking - Division of Sacred Theology and Pep Rallies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3770" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T02:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T02:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel's 198th comment was borderline. But the others had actual content.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3771" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T02:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T02:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't want 1500 notifications</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3772" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-27T02:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-27T02:37:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would, but I am gonna be busy in Siena today, praying to St Catherine for your collected souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3773" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-27T02:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-27T02:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Dunkel - you're telling me! I was tagged in the original status!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3774" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michaella Pape" data-date="2014-08-27T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michaella Pape at 2014-08-27T02:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I attempted to catch up - this thread is really too much! Some day I will read all of the comments, which can make one feel "outside of time" only to have that seemingness dissolved by a glance at the clock. Good night!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3775" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-27T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-27T02:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom Sundaram: What about our individual souls?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3776" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-27T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-27T02:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The agent intellect is ONE, Emily!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3777" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-08-27T02:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-27T02:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Collective Soul is a fun band. But yes, individually too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3778" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:45:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do join me! Everyone is invited! Except Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3779" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T02:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For my 201st comment, I would like to note that my 198th comment was meant only as a reflection on the diligent efforts of Edward Langley's documentation of the comments on this thread. You may now all expect at least 99 more comments from me, so that I can end on a good solid 300.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3780" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Step into my officeness, Daniel. I'd like to discuss your future with our company.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And past, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And present, if it existed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3783" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T02:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If that sounds like you're getting fired, it's because you're not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3784" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Dunkel, you should not stay away! <br />I want to talk about why metaphors aren't syllogisms again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3785" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-27T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-27T03:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3786" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-27T05:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-27T05:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know it was 3 hours and 648 comments ago... But Matthew, I defy your recall of the greatest smokers patio moment of all time. In fact, it was a sunny day, and a certain Jay Krautmann was sitting there with his guitar, along side Herbert Hartman, you, sir, Mr Peterson, myself, & several of the other usual suspects... At this point, a certain Karen zedlick approached and engaged in conversation (something heretical & non-magesterial, I'm sure). At one point, she requests the guitar & says, "mr Peterson, may I play for you? But of course, if I play... I must sing as well..." <br />Nothing was the same after that...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3787" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T07:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T07:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember that, Kunz....... and what I love is I still get to be number two in comments after taking 12 hours off at a time. (number one if you consider non-robots).<br />And Edward Langley, I'm sure I've won the "most ad hominems leveled at" competition.<br />Daniel Lendman, metaphors are syllogisms, if one can't reason well.... case in point?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3788" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T08:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T08:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the theses volume front. Which of these two titles is better: 1Learning and Discipleship: Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College<br />2 Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Matris: Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College?<br />Also add any better ones here: https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit... Also: The nominations are pretty heavy on the recent years, as Joel HF has observed. We need some nominations from the good old days.<br />Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs<br />docs.google.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Good Hegelians, Pater, we realize that the more recent theses are intrinsically better. (that and I think the thread is top heavy in terms of the participants)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T08:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T08:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">how embarrassing. Off to do penance. Is that 100 years for every post in the 10th circle, do you suppose?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3791" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">we just call them "partial" now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T08:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T08:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">considering this was about TAC theses, a remarkable number of comments about Chrirtendom theses like "how a metaphor is a syllogism" which i think also demonstrates the correctness of Matthew's observation about the strength of TAC's curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphor is a syllogism works if you can't do math.... but can only speak in broad lyrical vistas of the TL:DR variety. <br />And I love me some rhetorical points. I may make a few....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T08:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T08:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think Christendom theses win with respect to producing unending threads. They also may make one more employable irl. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_3795" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T08:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T08:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Funny - in all these thousands no one has brought up the nerdy pick up line comment even once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3796" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most (?) of us are married? Maybe?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Nieto's thesis was supposed to be quite good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that and the slideshow makes it really hard to sit through for all the thesis titles Peterson. I think I read three or four...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3799" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the first title better, Pater Edmund.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3800" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T08:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's amusing how the founders of Thomas Aquinas College believed they discovered the one thing wrong with the world and the Church, and that they were the only ones who discovered it, and the college is the only place you can find the answer:<br />Aristotle's notion of causality, embedded in the Summa.<br />Because academia and the Church lost sight of this, we have things like modern science, abortion and divorce and the folk Mass.<br />Aristotelian Causality is the drum the bang over and over again.<br />But the world today believes in cause and effect. It just lost sight of the first cause.<br />And banging their drum does nothing to correct this.<br />Because the world disbelieves because of lack of grace, not metaphysics; as the Church state, grace is needed.<br />And grace is an effect to the gift of faith and a response of love, which presents a whole new world of learning, which TAC ignores.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3801" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about "Irresponsible Agent Intellect: Wild Speculation sans Magisterium"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3802" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of banging drums... welcome back Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3803" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or better yet: "Theological Hubris: Metaphor as Syllogism"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3804" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(he just came back so I wouldn't take over first place in number of comments)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think one of the first things I learned at TAC was that I don't need grace. That is why they offer mass 4 times a day; confession 8 times, adoration daily, and have 4 full time chaplains.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T08:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math is useful for college accreditation; but harmful because it has made fluff out of everything else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3807" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:55:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">^stop reasoning^<br />How about: "Mathematics is Dangerous: 5 Ways and 3 Persons make 7 virtues"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3808" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:55:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Generally the homilies at TAC are about the geometric perfection and proportions that can be discerned in our better-than-Christendom's-chapel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3809" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah.... here goes: "Non-Euclidean Theology: Metaphorical Syllogisms in Magisterial Holistic Grace"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3810" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a commonly held position among the faculty and students that Prop. 1, 47 was the first real icon of the Trinity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3811" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that Euclid was Aristotle's pen name.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3812" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:57:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hang on, hang on.... I thought 2 11 demonstrated the Trinity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3813" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">by way of construction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3814" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that's fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3815" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T08:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">1,47 just showed us what we were looking for.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3816" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T08:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">2 11 makes cuts the AB into the golden ratio by constructing the golden ratio on the original line, turned at right angles and by extension, thus showing how God proceeds from himself, as the Son from the Father in order that the cut, the golden cut, produce that which is perfect in the Holy Spirit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3817" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Scott says math isn't important for theology!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3818" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael St. Patrick's metaphor-proof is a better syllogism: God is a shamrock. Therefore, there are three Persons and one God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T09:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T09:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you believe if you go to Mass, and trust the plan, then God will give you grace to become a right-thinking and truly liberal Catholic man of leisure, and you will have the answer to the world's problem.<br />This is the form of political correctness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3820" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T09:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What the magesterium says is metaphor" and "how drawing conclusions from magesteriaj propositions is heretical?" "whether Euclid was baptized and should be studied at a magesterium approved college, sans discursive reason but argued assertively by metaphorical syllogism?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3821" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you actually paid attention to what I write, you wouldn't have to guess at what I believe. You would just ask me and I would tell you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3822" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T09:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And being a cult.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3823" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you actually paid attention to what I write, you wouldn't have to guess at what I believe. You would just ask me and I would tell you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3824" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, don't you remember consecration at curfew in the dorms? St. Aristotle and St. Euclid were promised our undying devotion. <br />Gnosis gnosis gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3825" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T09:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC reads so much Aristotle and Thomas because... they believe causality is the one thing that went missing from the world, and they need to bring it back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3826" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's why Pope Leo XIII recommended it. Lost causality. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3827" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">plus, I figure by 4000 comments I can get close to 500 personally, for a robust 12ish%</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3828" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">stop stop stop. It wasn't for lost causality, it was for lost syllogistic metaphorical holistic magisterial grace</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3829" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, it is interesting if you actually read what The Founders of TAC said, they don't mention causality as a reason for starting TAC. <br />It is not surprising, therefore, that under the pressure of ever widening vocationalism and humanism, Catholic education, immersed in this tide, is capsizing. Blurred in its vision, it cannot well distinguish and justify true liberal education apart from vocational and professional training, in a time when technical and technological progress seem to be everything that is commonly regarded as worthwhile. Correlated with man’s hope in technology is his despair in knowing the truth about reality, which desperation gave rise originally to humanism. Even against the humanistic part of modern “liberal education,” wherein man turns back upon himself for the meaning of all things, which view always favors the “world” against God, and man against his Creator, the benighted Catholic college has found itself defenseless. This capitulation shows on the one hand the general lassitude and dullness to which we are all heir, but on the other hand it shows more importantly what was noted above: the Catholic college has never really understood itself, has never, that is, thought out the exigencies of a liberal education which is undertaken in subordination to the teaching of the Church, and which has as its aim an intellectual perfection which is possible and proper to the Catholic alone. Such an education demands that all the parts of the curriculum not ordered to technical concerns should be conducted with a view to understanding the Catholic faith, and that the Faith itself should be the light under which the curriculum is conducted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but they mean causality #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, here Brain Kelly talks about why we study Mathematics:<br />http://thomasaquinas.edu/.../newsl.../winter-2011_web.pdf...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3832" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Great Dr. McArthur says about why they founded the college:<br />"We wanted a college that was seriously intellectual. We wanted, as such, to frame a curriculum that would be possible but demanding. At the same time, we wanted it to be deeply Catholic, which is impossible without a serious curriculum to match. People can have good will and be very good people, but there is no education unless the mind is developed. It is possible to have an institution with Catholic rules, a Catholic demeanor, good Catholics as teachers and students, but yet fail to educate. This is what we wanted to address."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3833" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">From what the Angelic Neumayr says, it almost looks like the reason we study Aquinas and Aristotle is because we are following the Magesterium:<br />"Among scholars St. Thomas is a recognized master. For the Church he is the Theologian. The Church, as the popes have told us, has embraced his mind as her own — and this because he has unfolded the knowledge of ordinary experience, a knowledge shared by all men, with an almost unique fidelity to our shared experience. St. Thomas in his turn called Aristotle “The Philosopher:” the voice of the human mind itself. Speaking of Aristotle, then, Cardinal Newman said, “He told us our thoughts before we were ever born.”<br />Going from what we all know implicitly about the visibilia to an explicit account is not easy — and few, no matter their brilliance, have done it with perfect fidelity. Even the great St. Augustine concedes that though he knows what “time” is, he is at a loss when asked to explain it. St. Thomas and, perhaps, Aristotle before him were unique among men in this genius.<br />With good reason the College organized the course of studies to proceed “ad mentem Thomae.” This is to seek out an understanding of things according to the mind of Thomas; and not in any of the Neo-Thomisms that lived briefly and died in schools. This is to say that the College truly seeks to make its students disciples of Thomas. Discipleship asks more than a mere acquaintance with this master’s thought. His thought squares with our own and becomes our own."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">...but I heard from someone, once, that TAC doesn't care about the magesterium. Huh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3835" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:23:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you talking about the overt TAC doctrine<br />or the secret doctrine<br />#gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3836" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shockingly, Neumayr goes on to imply that sanctity and moral rectitude are important:<br />Question: But why this unique role for St. Thomas? Why among the rich minds of the renowned scholars should Thomas stand out? Aren’t they all geniuses of a sort?<br />Dr. Neumayr: Yes, but Thomas was not only a genius, he was also a saint. This can hardly be claimed for most of the Masters. But you might ask what difference does sanctity make? Is it merely an inspirational aspect that it brings? Or does it bear on the intellectual life itself?<br />The moral, in fact, has a central part in the intellectual life. Most of the more serious errors in judgment are more moral than intellectual. It is a moral failing rather than an intellectual one to claim that you see what you do not see, or that you do not see what you do see. The fallen nature of man makes a dogmatism favoring our own ideas almost irresistible. Those who would insist that a mere hypothesis be absolute are claiming to see what they do not see. The sanctity and the genius of St. Thomas would give him a certain immunity from claiming that he sees what he in fact does not see.<br />This moral rectitude in the pursuit of Wisdom ad mentem Thomae, in my humble opinion, is inextricably tied up with the mission of the College, and its future depends on this discipleship to our patron.<br />What does this mean for discipleship? You can’t be a disciple of just anyone, but only one you take to be both wise and honest. St. Thomas makes clear, for example, that the five proofs for God’s existence set out in his Summa Theologiae are irrefutable. By his genius he sees the truth of the demonstrations; by his sanctity he does not lie. We, his students, though we may struggle, have every expectation that we may come to see as he does that God must exist and cannot not exist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3837" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is just amazing what one can find when one actually pays attention to what people say and do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T09:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Last time I looked, the First Cause is as alive in the world today as when God said let there be light. <br />But alas, you maintain, it is not God's Nature that lacks Nature's God, but modern man's understanding of nature.<br />Therefore, Math!<br />The language of causal science.<br />***<br />How has this proposal played out? Has it fixed the problem? No, not even among those who believed the problem was the problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^just keep asserting it, maybe then someone will believe you^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3840" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, are you drunk?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3841" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, you show remarkable patience trying to reason, quoting people, linking articles. Don't you know that you just have to keep asserting the same thing, and it's all cool. I trust you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3842" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">and math isn't the language of causal science, its the language of casual science. Like science in yoga pants</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3843" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:33:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not sure that anyone who knows about the First Cause would ever think that there was a problem with the First Cause not being in the world. Because if the First Cause were not there, there would be no there, there for it not be in. <br />Scott, maybe if you did more metaphysics you would avoid such an embarrassing mistake. Fortunately, you are around TAC students and we don't care much when people make mistakes like that. We are a rather tollerant and patient lot. in that regard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3844" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T09:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, i disagree on one point. The universities did once know what they were about. They over time forgot as they strayed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3845" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T09:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Keep banging those drums of Aristotelean causality. Those Whoville drums.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I think I and the founders agree with that, mostly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3847" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T09:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it only takes one or two generations. Bede observed that. It is evident two when the jesuits were suppressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3848" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I am pretty sure it is too early in the day for you to be so inebriated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just did a page search for "Aristotelian causality" and got no hits. The only thing close was "Aristotelean causality" [sic]<br />Who is beating a drum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3850" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In seriousness, Scott, this seems to be typical of your discourse. It seems that you seldom really want to know what other people think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3851" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I call it "Linda Blair on facebook" <br />It's all fine and dandy until he disagrees with someone..... then the head spins around</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3852" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T09:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am going to have some quality time with the Mrs. I will be back, I am sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll just stick to ducking "work" for a little while longer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3854" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T09:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">did you guys go back to this topic so we could hit 4000 faster?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3855" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was suggested..... elsewhere.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3856" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T09:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn you, Edward, for tagging me back into this madness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3857" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T09:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T09:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF wrote it best.<br />"The call of the cthreadulhu: 'That thread is not dead, which can eternal lie. Yet with strange aeons even death may die.' To gaze upon it, is to know madness, and to comment, is to never escape."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3858" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T09:54:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund I like 1) better, though 2) gets points for Latin and awesomeness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3859" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T09:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you remind me, michael, of a thesis i meant to propose for discussion: "the neverending thesis" or "how one escapes the never ending thread" or "we are stuck in the 10 th circle: what dante would do."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3860" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T09:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember Mr. DeLuca telling us two things in Junior Philosophy:<br />(1) perfume is meant to remind you of sex. look at the ads!<br />(2) math is better than the magisterium because you can prove the trinity from it. Trinity has three right there in the name, and that's math!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T09:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia -- What'd I write best?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Plus" data-date="2014-08-27T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Plus at 2014-08-27T10:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Schniederjan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafY6sZt0FE<br />Grateful Dead - Truckin'<br />Grateful Dead - Truckin' Garcia;Lesh;Weir;Hunter Lyrics:Truckin got my chips cashed in. keep truckin, like the do-dah man Together, more or less in line, jus...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3863" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T10:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"so many,<br />I had not thought that death had undone, so many."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3864" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-27T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-27T10:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim Cantu, I was in your section and I can verify that we did in fact learn the aforementioned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3865" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T10:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^it's hard to believe, but it is indeed true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you guys got practical life information in junior philosophy? so jealous right now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3867" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Thomas Quackenbush" data-date="2014-08-27T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-27T10:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw<br />St. Patrick's Bad Analogies<br />The problem with using analogies to explain the Holy Trinity is that you always end up confessing some ancient heresy. Let the patron saint of the Irish show...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T10:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought I quoted it earlier, Joel.... plus you need to get back into the thread. Time's a-wastin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3869" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any thesis yet on how God breathed life into a dead monkey?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is that your excuse?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3871" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll be here all day, tip your waitresses</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3872" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's all covered in senior lab (the monkey thing, that is.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3873" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(did I miss somewhere in the previous 1000 comments where someone made the dead monkey claim?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lab? I thought it was seminar.... so much has changes [glances out into the distance wistfully]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">quomodo magna simiae?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3876" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't pay a lot of attention to any of senior year, so that's probably right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3877" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T11:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're all working for me now. Gnosis gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3878" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-27T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-27T11:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">gosh, it's called "Natural Science" now, at least that's what the kids tell me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3879" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">wait wait...... you're telling me that you can reason to things, natural things, from the things of nature? <br />*mind blown*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3880" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T11:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re theses, Pater Edmund, I think my wife's suggestion of asking the school for a list of double distinctions by year could be a good jumping off point in terms of older theses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-27T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-27T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As long as you start from pure a priori cognition, sure!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-27T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-27T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I meant that the class formerly known as "Lab" is now literally called "Natural Science"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3883" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:16:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's good, because "Lab" sets you up for the very real disappointment of not spending time in Kronk and Yzma's lab making llama potions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3884" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I did once intuit a priori time...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3885" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">got better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3886" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I don't know about that suggestion. That would be to assume that those grading the theses have some idea of what they're doing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3887" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, but it would be a list to work off, at least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-27T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-27T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Almost</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3889" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T11:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">THE THREAD: A TRIOLET<br />Like dog to vomit, thread recursive:<br />Theology’s slave is metaphysics!<br />Without its slave its not discursive!<br />Like dog to vomit: thread recursive.<br />We need The Physics, need coercive:<br />Need logic, math, and pagan ethics!<br />Like dog to vomit, thread recursive:<br />Theology’s slave is metaphysics!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3890" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-27T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-27T11:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">at</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3891" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">4001 (edited for accuracy)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">stay on target... stay on target! 4,000!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jonathan Monnereau" data-date="2014-08-27T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Monnereau at 2014-08-27T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">1st! Oh wait...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3894" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's a great summation of this entire thread that despite several people's efforts to hit it themselves, #4,000 was "at"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3895" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T11:23:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice. So "at" is our glorious 4,000th comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3896" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-27T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-27T11:24:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I could say that "at" is the worst comment in this magnificent train-wreck</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3897" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T11:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also like this quote from Fides et Ratio: "Theology in fact has always needed and still needs philosophy's contribution. As a work of critical reason in the light of faith, theology presupposes and requires in all its research a reason formed and educated to concept and argument. Moreover, theology needs philosophy as a partner in dialogue in order to confirm the intelligibility and universal truth of its claims. It was not by accident that the Fathers of the Church and the Medieval theologians adopted non-Christian philosophies. This historical fact confirms the value of philosophy's autonomy, which remains unimpaired when theology calls upon it; but it shows as well the profound transformations which philosophy itself must undergo. It was because of its noble and indispensable contribution that, from the Patristic period onwards, philosophy was called the ancilla theologiae. The title was not intended to indicate philosophy's servile submission or purely functional role with regard to theology. Rather, it was used in the sense in which Aristotle had spoken of the experimental sciences as “ancillary” to “prima philosophia”. The term can scarcely be used today, given the principle of autonomy to which we have referred, but it has served throughout history to indicate the necessity of the link between the two sciences and the impossibility of their separation."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3898" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T11:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you noticed that the thread is recursive?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3899" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:29:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really? mine is in plain old printed letters.<br />I'll see myself out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3900" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I'm not yelling at you:" http://youtu.be/AxQ7oqOTXlI?t=3m25s<br />Loriot "Feierabend" (einfach hier sitzen)<br />Das vollständige Original.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3901" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T11:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://instantrimshot.com/<br />Welcome to Instant Rimshot<br />instantrimshot.com<br />If you need quick access to an ironicly-placed rimshot sound to mock your friends, or a genuinely-placed rimshot to put your great joke over the top, you've come to the right place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3902" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-27T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-27T11:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about some celebratory music for 4k<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdHK_r9RXTc<br />Reggie Watts disorients you in the most entertaining way<br />http://www.ted.com/ Reggie Watts' beats defy boxes. Unplug your logic board and watch as he blends poetry and crosses musical genres in this larger-than-life ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3903" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but God gave us reason, we used that to make instruments, and measure red shift..... who knows "how long" creation took, but I'm pretty confident in was somewhen in the order of 14 billion years ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3904" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#Gnosistalking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I keep posting unfinished things accidentally and then deleting them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3906" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T11:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blasted shift/return.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3907" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">malformed thoughts haven't stopping anyone else</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3908" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"><--- guilty</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Third Secret of Fatima: This thread will end only when Causality has been returned to Nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3910" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Also guilty^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3911" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">you liked my comment? My gnosis must be on the fritz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And now, I am going to type into this discussion, every word of TS Eliot's The Wasteland, word for word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">April</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3914" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3916" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">cruellest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3918" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">month</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">bringing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">month</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3921" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">something about tubers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3922" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T11:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shantih Shantih Shantih</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3923" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T11:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whew, now that that's over with...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3924" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T11:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I need Aaron Gigliotti's expert advice on the Theses Volume title question: Which of these two titles is better:<br />1 Learning and Discipleship: Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College,<br />2 Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Matris: Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College,<br />or rather, what should the title of this volume be? https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3925" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T11:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what gnosis is. Are they gonna take my degree back?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3926" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T11:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the first better, honestly. But I really hate the word "discipleship" Mr Berquist ruined that for me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this up to too many comments to just jump in?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3928" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T11:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ No, never.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3929" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T11:57:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's up to too many comments to NOT just jump in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T11:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3931" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T11:58:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">We may be arrogant jerks, but we are inclusive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3932" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T11:58:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I too aspire to be an arrogant jerk and inclusive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3933" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-27T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-27T11:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund "A Well-Read High School Geometry Teacher: Intellectual Pride in the Catholic Ghetto."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3934" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T12:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael of the second most comments. 4000 is now yours.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3935" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T12:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is deleting old comments to manipulate the thread grounds for thread excommunication?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3936" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-27T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-27T12:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU<br />Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in.<br />Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes but who is the thread magisterium?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3938" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T12:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good question. But if it's latae sententiae, does it matter?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3939" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T12:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would argue the Thread is its own Magisterium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3940" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I nominate pope Peregrott. Is mine the 4000th now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3941" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T12:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Organically developing in response to the churnings of the heresy factory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3942" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T12:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Either that, or we're all on the Barque of Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T12:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Off-topically, is there a particularly good recording of Handel's Messiah on youtube? I already listened to one, but I'm supposed to listen to it for work.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3944" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T12:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r68P8TBWiIQ<br />Handel Messiah, by London Symphony Orchestra & Sir Colin Davis 1966<br />Handel Messiah, by London Symphony Orchestra & Sir Colin Davis 1966.mp4</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3945" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T12:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland, one of the best, imo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3946" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, how is that off-topic? Who made you the topic cop? <br />the thread, as self-actualizing universality, determines the topic, not us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3947" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T12:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">From looking at this thread and the disagreements, I think there is a thesis/antithesis/synthesis going on. So the thread is the world spirit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The topic magisterium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3949" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T12:32:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, turns out Truth is not a woman. Nietzsche is now being published with gender inclusive language</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The topic is how everyone in the world has lost their sense of Aristotelian causality, and how TAC is working to fix this problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3951" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^nope that's just your ax-grinder</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3952" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T12:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"If truth be a person, what then?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3953" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T12:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"if truth is an it, then what?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T12:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please, you have to say it mathematically if you want it to count as rational discourse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3955" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T12:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Eureka! "excommunication latae sententiae" or "How to exit TNET?]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3956" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T12:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"if truth is a peregrine, how to proceed?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3957" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">1 a fool<br />+<br />2 bold assertion<br />=<br />3 Peregrott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3958" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"he or she is considered profound, because he or she cannot find a bottom to him or her. He or she isn't even shallow"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3959" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we all just agree: modern man does not believe in God anymore, so the way to fix this problem is by teaching Catholic college students about Aristotelean causality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3960" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">education X vangeliz / duc = evangelization</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3962" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T12:41:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">If truth were a peregrine, you capture it, hood it, put it on a birdstand in your living room for about 3 mos so it becomes docile to your voice and dependent on you for food. And then you could take it hunting, training it to dive bomb on your favorite targets....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3963" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T12:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotelian causality is necessary, but more fundamentally, which causality presupposes, is essentialism. Without an understanding of nature, we can make no headway.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's backwards, John. We cannot metaphysically know anything about Nature, without assent to revelation:<br />DOGMA: <br />In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order.<br />Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3965" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">there you go responding to something no one asserted again. Can we add "take a drink" every time I accuse you of straw man?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3966" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-27T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-27T12:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">*makes popcorn*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3967" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T12:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^pour a drink for me^ <br />I'm at "work"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3968" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T12:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even this dogma just by the wording still allows for some religious and moral truths to be known without supernatural revelation, if not easily or with perfect certainty or totally free from error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3969" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T12:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one said metaphysics was easy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Aristotelian causality is necessary" sure does not sound like a straw man, especially when the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary to understand metaphysics.<br />Now, if anyone cares to engage in a rational dialogue...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://stream1.gifsoup.com/.../eddie-izzard-popcorn-gif-o...<br />stream1.gifsoup.com<br />stream1.gifsoup.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">smokescreen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the truth will not be hooded, nor hidden in smoke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3974" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T12:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bonaventure is like the students in the Thinkery, studying math in the sand with their face-eyes at the same time as studying the heavens with their nether eyes. Aristophanes was a genius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3975" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T12:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If knowledge about nature is impossible without revelation, then how do you take Rom 1:19-21?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">His powers of ridicule were feared and acknowledged by influential contemporaries;</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3978" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-27T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-27T12:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">On a serious note, I initially thought (2k comments ago) that the main confusion by the thread antagonist concerned the distinction between the order of learning and the order of the sciences, but it appears the deeper issue is, ironically, his inability to perceive reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">G is revealed in nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can metaphysics shift the perception of reality?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3981" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_3982" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">for your popcorn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, Catherine, when the Church taught "it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order..."<br />She really meant:<br />"Yeah, metaphysics is tough, but thanks to the way Thomas Aquinas College teaches Aristotelean causality, problem solved. Nature redeemed! Salvation is at hand!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Romulus and Remus were/are more entertaining.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3985" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order..." nature is hungry-popcorn don't satisfy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3986" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T13:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The root problem here is that it is commonly held that we can't reason about magisterial pronouncements.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the magisterium's pronouncements are to form consciouses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3988" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_3989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience<br />Conscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />en.wikipedia.org<br />Conscience is an aptitude, faculty, intuition or judgment that assists in distinguishing right from wrong. Moral judgment may derive from values or norms (principles and rules). In psychological terms conscience is often described as leading to feelings of remorse when a human commits actions that g…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God's "eternal power and deity" (Roman 1:19) cannot be clearly perceived through Nature, save by the assistance of grace.<br />The infallible Church is to be assented to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the church only infallible when it says it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">get that hood off me.................................</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3993" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, look what you got me to do now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3994" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:07:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, Peregrine, you are conflating two positions. How do you counteract a materialist worldview which categorically excludes God and the supernatural? By REVELATION! No. The claim isn't that TAC teaching Aristotle solves all our problems and gives you understanding of everything. Rather the claim, which needs defense, but defense can definitely be made, is that with a materialist/mechanistic view of the world, you cannot know God at all nor can you be open to revelation. So unless God goes Road to Damascus on everyone, we need to till the fields. And that is done by attacking the reductionist worldview that denies essences exist. Only by doing this can reason be prepared to tackle difficult questions. You seem to be tilting at windmills which aren't even present in this conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lest we believe, as you seem to be teaching, that Aristotelean causality is an apologetical panacea, and a stepping stone to Revelation, in the order of being and discovery. This is backwards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OT: I asked students if they could disprove the principle of non-contradiction. One student said that Jesus was both man and not-man at the same time. How do you respond? I have my own answer, but would be interested in hearing what y'all have to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God does go "road to Damascus" with everyone. And it seems you're presenting the materialist/mechanistic world view as a straw man. No problem using pagan causality to go after that. Just don't use it to build a Catholic college around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What?????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_3999" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sigh. Yes, by talking about hylomorphism, we are worshiping Apollo. THE GIG IS UP EVERYONE! Close down the college. We have been unmasked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, you claim that only by studying pagan causality can you be prepared to tackle difficult question. Sorry, but this is utterly preposterous.<br />Don Quixote is the autobiography of Thomas Aquinas College.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4001" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I should not have gone to college but just stayed home and prayed reeeeeeeaaaaaaally hard? I'm not sure why you have such animus toward a view of the world that was adopted by doctors of the church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4002" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems the magician has convinced you of the Moor's lie....you even embrace the Arabic spelling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotelean causality is a fine rebuttal to materialism and mechanism. Just don't premise Catholic education on it. Catholic education begins and ends with faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4004" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pagan Causality? Because causality works different once you're baptized....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, seeing as TAC begins with a year of scripture, I'm not sure what you are asserting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4006" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catholic causality: Same effects, now with 100% more JESUS!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4007" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That world view was not adopted by the Doctors. The Doctors always first assented to the principles of Faith, then studied the pagans, not the way you propose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do agree that faith or belief in God is always a gift of God. Always and everywhere!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading the Bible is not a comprehensive introduction to the deposit of the Faith and the principles that the Doctors assented to throughout their studies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Catherine. Let us agree that Faith always comes from God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4011" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">QED many times: Pergrine does not undersand what he asserts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes! But that doesn't mean we can't study with our reason at least some of what has been given to us by God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Max, causality does work differently once you are baptized, as a matter of fact. Thank you. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4014" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T13:18:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Remember what Rome made Bautain sign?<br />“We promise for now and forever: NEVER TO TEACH … 3 that with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics, and the truths depending on it, as a science totally distinct from supernatural theology, which is founded on divine revelation…”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4015" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think Peregrine understands what he asserts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Catherine, the Church teaches you can't understand those things properly, without an assent to revelation, which implies an understanding of sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4017" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Indeed I do understand what I assert. Thank you and God bless Frank.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4018" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-27T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-27T13:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Bonaventure, you say that TAC is teaching Aristotelian philosophy without revelation, but that is simply not true. They explicitly say that the whole course of studies is conducted under the light of faith. Moreover, you just seemed to arue like this: since you can't know ALL natural truths without using revelation(whatever that means exactly), therefore neither can you know ANY.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4019" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T13:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater you're just reading it out of context and/or it doesn't mean what it clearly means because if it disagrees with PB it simply cannot mean what it means</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-27T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-27T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dd you really mean that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i assert with Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T13:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr Knuffke, vide my entire engagement on this insane thread for the answer to your q</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4023" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't it a dogma that we can know some truths via reason? So, if that's true, wouldn't it be material heresy to claim “We cannot metaphysically know anything about Nature without assent to revelation”?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4024" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">can you cite some text for that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr Knuffe Sir: I am just saying what Pater Edmind just cited: "with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics."<br />So Aristotelean causality is not the secret sauce, or the appetizer, or the first course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, rephrasing that in simpler words might help.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">running for lunch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4028" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T13:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Joel HF, the heresy Bautain was forced to publicly renounce.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4029" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T13:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">See I can split infinitives too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4030" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-27T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-27T13:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well it would be a difficult position to maintain. Presumably, he would need to have that statement itself revealed to him too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4031" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was already trying to rephrase that, even for myself, but I'm also trying to cook lunch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catholic education begins and ends with faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4033" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T13:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">fun with Fideism!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but can he grasp that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4035" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T13:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's have some Alexander Pope:<br />«See skulking Truth to her old cavern fled,[451]<br />Mountains of casuistry heap'd o'er her head!<br />Philosophy, that lean'd on heaven before,<br />Shrinks to her second cause, and is no more.<br />Physic of Metaphysic begs defence,<br />And Metaphysic calls for aid on Sense!<br />See Mystery to Mathematics fly!<br />In vain! they gaze, turn giddy, rave, and die.<br />Religion, blushing, veils her sacred fires,<br />And unawares Morality expires. 650<br />Nor public flame, nor private, dares to shine;<br />Nor human spark is left, nor glimpse divine!<br />Lo! thy dread empire, Chaos! is restored;<br />Light dies before thy uncreating word:<br />Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall;<br />And universal darkness buries all.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">killing time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund--I believe Vatican I also has something to say about it. I think poor Peregrine doesn't know the magisterium he loves so passionately</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4038" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">pb could not distinguish syllogism and metaphor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4039" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T13:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, I just saw PB's comment: «I am just saying what Pater Edmind just cited: "with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics."»<br />That's formal heresy right there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">naaaaah, mere anarchy not yet loosed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4041" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T13:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley already pulled out the Vatican I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4042" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T13:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_4043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My reason must allow, that I had wooed, not as I should. A creature made of clay. When the angel woos the clay, he'll lose his wings at the end of the day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4044" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So - just to be clear - Pater Edmund just pointed out that Peregrine Bonaventure just assented to a formal heresy...<br />So - who's the super-Catholic now!? <br />/troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4045" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, also the comment I quoted. No metaphysical knowledge without assent to revelation. Really? From the guy rabbiting on about how TACer's lacked magisterium?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4046" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO I SUSPECT HE DIDNT GRASP THE CONDEMNATION. I misread it earlier too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes - but he just AFFIRMED THAT POSITION.<br />I also did not grasp the condemnation at first either. But he affirmed that's exactly what he's arguing for - a condemned position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4048" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB - care to recant?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's unfortunate I can't tag him - he'll never read this far back....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So basically we need to address Fideism ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he read it opposite its meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the time you go "get lunch" and get back to this thread... it will be at 5000 comments, and who has the time to catch up when velocity increases....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which condemnation are you talking about Max Summe? There have been a few that PB didn't quite grasp.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4054" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://godwillbegod.com/.../07/uroboros-MoM-figure-29.png<br />godwillbegod.com<br />godwillbegod.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The one where he explicitly said:<br />Peregrine Bonaventure Mr Knuffe Sir: I am just saying what Pater Edmind just cited: "with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics."<br />So Aristotelean causality is not the secret sauce, or the appetizer, or the first course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF - that was in response to what you just said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4057" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe the self-actualizing world spirit has turned into Jormungandr</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, I just wondered which condmnation, b/c there were a couple others along the same lines, iirc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4059" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't magisterially magisterium your magisterially magistic teachings.<br />#gnosisrocks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4060" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-27T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-27T13:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why does this guy hate TAC so much?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it containr 2 negations: too many for pb; he has problems with math and logic inter al.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4062" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T13:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">just be ready for the decisive "it doesn't say that/you're taking it out of context/you lack the sacred integral sapiential gnosis and thus can't properly read that" argument. I mean, "argument"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4063" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You said gnosis. that takes me back to junior music with Molly Gustin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4064" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philip D. Knuffke--No one really knows. Though getting told TAC "wasn't for him" (or something to that effect) by a senior tutor probably didn't help. Nor did having to leave after several attempts at freshman (and sophomore?) year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Phillip... go back a few thousand comments. It explains EVERYTHING</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4066" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T13:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that Peregrine has just now recovered from explicitly denying a statement taught by Vatican I 2000 comments ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4067" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">except he doesn't understand it that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vatican I: "10. Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4069" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cherry-picked the above quote from like, dozens, that would equally support the point. And, Edward Langley, PB didn't recover, he has been more explicit than ever in his rejection of them. (Though, I imagine he thinks he DOES agree with them...or is it vice versa?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />Edward Langley "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the <br />other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley You haven't answered my question, Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley Does "right reason establish the foundation of faith" or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman Edward, I think you are being ignored.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4075" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4076" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh I forgot, you also resort to name-calling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Faith. Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4078" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, then you're a material heretic: that quotation was from Vatican I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4079" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman Edward, that was a gotcha argument, underhanded, and dirty. I really liked it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, the appropriate response is silence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4081" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">if you can't distinguish between metaphor and syllogism, you'll affirm or deny anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4082" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T13:39:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here it is, Vatican I "1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4083" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Hence also the possession of [knowledge of the first causes] might justly be regarded as beyond human power; for in many ways human nature is in bondage, sot that according to Simonides 'God alone can have this privilege', and it is unfitting that man should not be content to seek the knowledge that is suited to him." From the Pagan Aristotle, Metaphysics 1.2 982b28-32</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4084" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T13:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, the way to do it is to quote Vatican I without citation and ask Peregrine if what you've quoted is true. When he denies it, watch him backpedal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, the trick is now to say that your quote isn't the "fullness of faith" play a little three card mental monte and accuse everyone of heresy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Peregrine Bonaventure That's false Edward, and you take Vat I out of context. Right reason is an effect of assent to Faith, which is clearly the foundation of the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Benjamin" data-date="2014-08-27T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Benjamin at 2014-08-27T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harrah 4k comments. Well played Matthew</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4088" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In The Neverending Thread, thread comment on you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well played Matthew? He barely cracks the top ten</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4090" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps the antagonist ought to follow the ancient dietary laws of avoiding ostrich meat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4091" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-27T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-27T13:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Still got a way to go:<br />http://recordsetter.com/Facebook-world-records<br />Facebook World Records<br />recordsetter.com<br />Check out some of the coolest and quirkiest Facebook world records and videos. Impress your friends by breaking or inventing your own Facebook world records on Recordsetter.com.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4092" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Haggard" data-date="2014-08-27T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Haggard at 2014-08-27T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, let it never be said I didn't do my part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4093" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T13:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we should make Peregrine wear a scarlet H</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4094" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">scarlet is too noble of a color...let us go with bile green</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4095" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about a scarlet "I" for idiot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4096" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">While making fun of PB is fun... because...<br />We should also remember that we should probably do our best to help him not be a heretic...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4097" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T13:50:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">YOu guys are brats.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4098" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T13:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we're at the point where argumentum ad baculum is the only option left.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">how's that possible, Max? Dialogue has to be possible first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Who's name-calling now?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4101" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine: me, and yes, I am a brat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia I don't know how it would be possible - perhaps argumentation + dialogue is not the answer - at least not in its current form and tone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4103" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's just like, you're opinion, man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4104" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe you should also burn him, since he's a material heretic, and dialogue is no longer possible. Cuz it's loving to help someone see their error by killing him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4105" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Public shaming is a form of argumentum ad baculum, and is often helpful in correction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4106" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, he called me a thug approximately 4000 comments ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4107" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-27T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-27T13:54:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think TACers should not be allowed to use facebook to dispute...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4108" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T13:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">short, monosyllabicly worded questions and refusal to respond to his assertions?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4109" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">better:?<br />http://assets.dogtime.com/.../50e.../column_Cat-meme_021.jpg<br />assets.dogtime.com<br />assets.dogtime.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cat memes > disputation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4111" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T13:57:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">What can be done when we point to the moon and our finger gets stared at?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4112" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">start howling like our "interlocutor", Aaron.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, Catherine, I actually went line by line through Pope Francis's first encyclical with him on facebook with Megan and Mr.Ferrier back when he was just Scott. I tried</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe that's it. Say absurd things on simple matters and see if he can correct his thinking by correcting others. IDK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4115" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That Ferrier thread is linked somewhere above, hidden by a few thousand comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T14:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">something like this, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4117" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to fill in for the "new" contributors, in case y'all haven't yet figured it out Peregrine aka Scott Weinberg, doesn't care about rational discourse. He raises some interesting questions, but cannot get beyond that. <br />As a rule, he does not really pay attention to what you say. It would seem that he is not interested. <br />He makes blind assertions and insults without basis. <br />Feel free to engage, but just know that he is a troll without equal. <br />If you do not believe me, you can just look above. His position with regard to TAC has been refuted a dozen times just in this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cant see it, Aaron.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4119" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T14:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">its a wolf howling.....it was suppose to be a gif, that's probably why you can't see it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4120" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most recently he has been talking about how the TAC founders thought that Aristotelian causality is the panacea for our world's ills. <br />It apparently does not interest Scott that our founders never said any such thing. <br />I quoted all of them at length above about 700 comments ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4121" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I can't believe you've hung in this thread when you can't even see Peregrine's posts, and aren't even a TAC grad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4122" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T14:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine is right that open meanness is never called for; she's just suggesting that we all act like Christians</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A different one Joel. One specifically about the encyclical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T14:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">700 comments ago? HA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4125" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember that one, vaguely. More of the same, iirc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4126" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T14:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">but honestly Catherine I think we've all MOSTLY been pretty good sports here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(91, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And now for a diversion:<br />Suppose two people play a "guess the number I have in mind game" except, rather than one person trying to guess the number the other is thinking of, he's trying to pick a point on a line that the other person has thought of. What is the probability that the guesser picks the correct point?<br />On the one hand, if the things to be guessed were line segments, the probability to pick a given segment varies directly with its length. Thus, it would seem that the probability to pick a given point would be 0 (i.e. as the limit of decreasing lengths). That is, it is impossible to pick the given point.<br />On the other hand, that point was already picked and if it was impossible for it to be picked, it could not have been picked. Thus the probability that it is picked must be > 0.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4128" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, Joel, there have been many interesting things on the thread and its more tolerable not to see pb. I am in an intellectual desert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, if even Aristotle had the humility to know that true metaphysical knowedge is impossible without God's help, don't you think it would be a good idea to teach Catholic college students the principles of Revelation in the infallible deposit of the Faith and of sacred theology?????<br />Just askin'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T14:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, how about replying to the proposition Rome made Bautain sign? It was quoted earlier by Edmund, and you're ignoring it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose it depends on what you mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4132" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Philip D. Knuffke" data-date="2014-08-27T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Philip D. Knuffke at 2014-08-27T14:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you serious Mr. Peregrine Bonaventure?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4133" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's his mantra, he repeats it to assure himself of its truth, Philip</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4134" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T14:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB! You're back - you missed the point where we just noticed you explicitly assented to an heretical statement by quoting it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4135" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, as an update, it became clear above that Scott is a material heretic with regard to relation of faith and reason by denying a central point of Vatican I. <br />Specifically he denies: "right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4136" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-27T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-27T14:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I think that reading every comment on this thread should count toward credit hours.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4137" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Max, I think his first name is Pope, which is why he is so persistent about this magisterium thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hump day, isn't it. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4139" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All day long.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4140" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrott, what are the principles of revelation, in your own words?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4141" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps it is opportune for me to point out that, if the Church actually took Scott's position on things the Nicene Creed could never have been formed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4142" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">peregrine can not be heretic. HE DOESNT understand what he is saying. He is indocile though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me ask the question again:<br />If Aristotle himself knew that metaphysics was impossible without God's help, and since the *fullness* of God's "help" came after Aristotle, do you not think it is more important to teach the full deposit of that "help" first?<br />Seeing as that "help" deals with: 1) some things pertaining to God which can be know by reason (albeit with His help) and 2) other things which can be known only in faith, then would it not be wise to teach students all of that deposit, and first, so everyone knows what that help is?<br />TAC proposes the opposite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4144" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T14:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB - you haven't responded to the point that you're assenting to heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, this is a good question/objection! The only problem is that it has been answered before. But I think we should try again. <br />John, for your benefit, this is what Scott said: "Let me ask the question again:<br />If Aristotle himself knew that metaphysics was impossible without God's help, and since the *fullness* of God's "help" came after Aristotle, do you not think it is more important to teach the full deposit of that "help" first?<br />Seeing as that "help" deals with: 1) some things pertaining to God which can be know by reason (albeit with His help) and 2) other things which can be known only in faith, then would it not be wise to teach students all of that deposit, and first, so everyone knows what that help is?<br />TAC proposes the opposite."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">again, what do you mean by "full deposit" is it a list?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4147" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is also a good question!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me ask again.<br />Since Aristotle had the humility to know that metaphysics is impossible without God's help, would it not be wise to learn what that help is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4149" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we talk about the Deposit of Faith in relation to material heresy?<br />You can't keep trumpeting the Church and deny her teachings!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4150" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"><I am the self-appointed cheerleader></p>
</li>
<li id="post_4151" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T14:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Pandorica will open, Silence will fall....who knew how prophetic those words were from the multi-form at the beginning of Dr. Who, Season 5</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4152" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:30:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I second Daniel for cheerleader. (pics or it didn't happen)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4153" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHAHAHA ^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Help = the deposit of the Catholic Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4155" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Horton" data-date="2014-08-27T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Horton at 2014-08-27T14:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the thesis on animal feelings sounds timely and interesting. Just wanted to add that. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4156" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the problem is that one cannot understand the deposit of the Catholic Faith without sound philosophy. The Church's own definitions are predicated with philosophical terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Its Newman's fault: what happens when so called real apprehentioms are elevated above notional ones. He too seems to have rejected that we can know God "notionally". We wind up solipsic and trapped in our own mind unable to communicate with personal "experience" of God and irrational (toa degree since it is impossible simpliciter) fideism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4158" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fine:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I patently disagree with that. Indeed, the opposite is true. You cannot understand philosophy, without God's help. The maxim is faith seeking understanding. You indicate TAC attempts to do the opposite.<br />Do you agree with this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4160" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't "faith seeking understanding" imply that faith is not, of itself, understood?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you cannot establish a "sound philosophy" without assent to God's help first, which you cannot do without studying it. Agree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4162" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kinda like the phrase "man seeking wife" implies that he does not yet have a wife?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is the difficulty. You equate God's help with understanding the deposit of faith. Now, I agree with Vatican I that faith and reason are mutually up-building and aid one another. However, nature proceeds grace. (Because grace is for the sake of make a nature like unto God). So, the help that comes in metaphysics is largely had (at first) through prayer and spiritual exercise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4164" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T14:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The broad-backed hippopotamus <br />Rests on his belly in the mud; <br />Although he seems so firm to us <br />He is merely flesh and blood. <br />Flesh-and-blood is weak and frail, <br />Susceptible to nervous shock; <br />While the True Church can never fail <br />For it is based upon a rock. <br />The hippo's feeble steps may err <br />In compassing material ends, <br />While the True Church need never stir <br />To gather in its dividends. <br />The 'potamus can never reach <br />The mango on the mango-tree; <br />But fruits of pomegranate and peach <br />Refresh the Church from over sea. <br />At mating time the hippo's voice <br />Betrays inflexions hoarse and odd, <br />But every week we hear rejoice <br />The Church, at being one with God. <br />The hippopotamus's day <br />Is passed in sleep; at night he hunts; <br />God works in a mysterious way -- <br />The Church can sleep and feed at once. <br />I saw the 'potamus take wing <br />Ascending from the damp savannas, <br />And quiring angels round him sing <br />The praise of God, in loud hosannas. <br />Blood of the Lamb shall wash him clean <br />And him shall heavenly arms enfold, <br />Among the saints he shall be seen <br />Performing on a harp of gold. <br />He shall be washed as white as snow, <br />By all the martyr'd virgins kist, <br />While the True Church remains below <br />Wrapt in the old miasmal mist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4165" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Dunkel, that is a favorite of mine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4166" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I responded to Scott saying: "Daniel, I patently disagree with that. Indeed, the opposite is true. You cannot understand philosophy, without God's help. The maxim is faith seeking understanding. You indicate TAC attempts to do the opposite.<br />Do you agree with this?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And "And you cannot establish a "sound philosophy" without assent to God's help first, which you cannot do without studying it. Agree?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Formal heresy?^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4169" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, Daniel. He is partly right. But difficult to correct bc confused and indocile. Very confused.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4170" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T14:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel that image is obscene!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's all I get from you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree with that Daniel. I equate God's help with revelation; and to have that "help" you need the Church, her teachings, and you need faith, to assent to those truths, and you need to study them, and to do that you need to be presented with them. Thomas's metaphysics is not the same as Aristotles'. <br />You, and TAC, seem to be saying the metaphysics and revelation are equal, and equally help each other.<br />This is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4173" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't "faith seeking understanding" imply that faith is not, of itself, understood kinda like the phrase "man seeking wife" implies that he does not yet have a wife?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4174" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here I am not calling anyone a heretic or troll and you criticize my cheerleading outfit! Catherine! Where's the love? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does homoousion mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4176" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine seems to think that "faith seeking understanding" means "you can't understand anything unless you first have faith."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4177" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus making all of philosophy into Sacred Theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4178" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does it mean for the soul to be the form of the body as the council of Vienne defined?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Ed, faith seeking understanding simply means gaining a greater understanding of the reasonability of the faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, faith presupposes reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My poor eyes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4182" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gaze for a while on the Never Ending Thread as it grows and all will be well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4183" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never again to be unseen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith presupposes reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4185" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES. WE CAN UNDERSTAND NO ARTICLE of faith without reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4186" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Peregrine, one cannot disagree well unless one actually addresses one's opponents: whether by presenting an argument for your own view, by distinguishing some term your opponent uses or by refuting some claim your opponent makes. Merely reasserting your own position like a broken record is none of these things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4187" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is another argument: Faith is a virtue, but the definition of virtue includes the account of a rational nature. Therefore, faith presupposes reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4188" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T14:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man seeking wife: This thread seems to have turned into a singles classified. Illustrated, sadly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine: Yes or no, do you agree or disagree that “the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason”?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Ed, "faith seeking understanding" does not mean "you can't understanding anything unless you first have faith." It means you would not exist without God, and you cannot understand anything about God in Himself or in his Revelation without faith. And since that is the case, and since the principles of faith have been authoritatively presented to man through the Church, in Her sacred theology, would you not want to study what those principles and teachings are, how they came to be, how they came to improve the metaphysics of the pagan, and how and what they are doing through the ages to this present moment?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4191" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Turned into?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4192" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT HIS CONFUSION AND OTHERS HERE (i think) is that de fide propositions (and not a special gift of the Holy Spirit) are what preserve us from many errors of reason darkened by sin and ignorance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4193" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a position that has been explicitly condemned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, that is true, Joel. We cannot know our Lord God without His help. So let us learn what that help is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4195" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, we want to know what the Church says, but to understand homousion and "soul is form of man" requires sound PHILOSPHY.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4196" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We may have a shot at 8128</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4197" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, this is just in from Scott, <br />"No, Ed, "faith seeking understanding" does not mean "you can't understanding anything unless you first have faith." It means you would not exist without God, and you cannot understand anything about God in Himself or in his Revelation without faith. And since that is the case, and since the principles of faith have been authoritatively presented to man through the Church, in Her sacred theology, would you not want to study what those principles and teachings are, how they came to be, how they came to improve the metaphysics of the pagan, and how and what they are doing through the ages to this present moment?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4198" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T14:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Keep it going! Wooooooo!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T14:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF - looks like he assents to that statement</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4200" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:51:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine--you realize that that proposition was *condemned by anathema* at Vatican I? I quote “If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.” Thus you must REJECT that idea if one wants to remain faithful to the Catholic magisterium!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4201" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC -- 2, Peregrine -- 0</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder how many sentences Peregrine would reject if we just quoted VI one sentence at a time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4203" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel!!! That was a gotcha argument! It was low-down and dirty... and AMAZING! <br />Edward Langley, look at the example you have set.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">***********Yes, Daniel, understanding the soul as form, requires sound philosophy, but sound philosophy requires sound Revelation, which requires the Church. ******Consider the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in light of Thomas' use of philosophy of the soul. He erred on this dogma ***because of*** his view of the soul. The Church did not err because the Church is aided by God in a unique way.********<br />So let us study that fully.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4205" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, you have to start seeing that your position is really breaking down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4206" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Timothy Moore" data-date="2014-08-27T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Moore at 2014-08-27T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think this thread has gotten way past harmful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4207" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please, Scott, for the good of your own soul and well being, you need to assent to the teaching of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4208" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">AGAIN. He is not an heretic. Through modern "education" he has become imbecile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4209" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It wasn't a gotcha, b/c I'd quoted the Vatican I statement in its entirety earlier today in this very thread. With attribution too. Moreover, I do sincerely hope that PB will come to the truth. (As I know, do you, Daniel.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4210" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T14:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, St. Thomas's denial of the IC is consistent with his commitment to speculate as little as possible beyond things revealed by God. Of course the content of the Deposit of Faith was later made more explicit, but that's neither here nor there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is my position breaking down, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4212" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">scroll up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4213" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't you see how you have explicitly rejected truths defined by the Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, tell me how my position is breaking down?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Twice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. How?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, where?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quote it again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine can you please just reply to the propositions quoted from Vatican I and the recantation of Bautain? They directly contradict you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4220" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">someone has to have it on ctrl+v</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll quote Vatican I again: "If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema." You explicitly agreed with the condemned statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4222" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. You rejected as false, this statement: The one, true God, our creator and lord, can be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4223" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the <br />other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley You haven't answered my question, Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4225" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley Does "right reason establish the foundation of faith" or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman Edward, I think you are being ignored.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4227" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4228" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4229" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh I forgot, you also resort to name-calling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Faith. Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4231" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, then you're a material heretic: that quotation was from Vatican I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4232" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="[snip]" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">[snip] at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman Edward, that was a gotcha argument, underhanded, and dirty. I really liked it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4233" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-10-22T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-10-22T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, the appropriate response is silence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4234" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, what Joel just said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please show me where I erred, and contradicted the teaching of the Church, if this is your claim?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4236" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Ed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4237" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you see how that just happened?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T14:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Pater Edmund.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4239" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T14:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">we just showed you, Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4240" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T14:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is: He is anathema who says that God cannot be known from creation and human reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4241" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Slow down, guys</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4242" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let him respond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks. Daniel. He needs it broken down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4244" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T14:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even more strongly, Catherine: " by the NATURAL light of human reason."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4245" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T14:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you! (Not that I care what the magisterium proclaims magisterially.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4246" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T14:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, maybe I do a little.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T14:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Behold, the sun pierces the fog</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't speak so soon, Aaron.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4249" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone following should take a moment and pray for Scott. Now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you going to let me respond?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brats.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4253" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4254" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beyond harmful towards <br />healing. This needs to be a healing thread. The soothing eternal return.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love all of you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">May I respond?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB, please do respond, by all means!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please do!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does he grasp his statement. Does he grasp that that is what is condemned?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4260" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is asking for time to respond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4261" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T15:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's find out. Hush for a second.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4262" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T15:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's asking us to let him respond, so let's hold off until he does so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4263" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">there's no way this turns out badly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4264" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T15:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have hope. The Peregrine may yet take wing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4265" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">cue jet engine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4266" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TRADITIONALLY, an heretic is given 6 months to recant. PB needs more time perhaps. Go gentle. He is confused.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4267" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gur8ccqrQ9c<br />When You Believe - The Prince Of Egypt<br />"When You Believe" is the Official Movie Soundtrack of Prince of Egypt. In the film, this song of inspiration is performed by the characters Tzipporah (Miche...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason alone, but not without some admixture of error. Revelation and assent is needed to know without error. This is the *infallible* teaching from Vat I.<br />Thank you.<br />You seem more interesting in proving you are right, then understanding what is true.<br />But I thank you for letting me respond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4269" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's okay, Peregrine. They do this to EVERYONE. Including me at times. I have been known to throw pencils at people across the table. And burst into tears.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4270" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T15:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wrong...It is extremely difficult to know without an admixture of error and may require much in the way of time....but not impossible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fascinating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I was usually wrong of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When do we do this to you, Catherine Ryland? And moreover it is done entirely out of love!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4274" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Scott, I take it from your response that you do not recant?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4275" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, this was from Scott: "Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason alone, but not without some admixture of error. Revelation and assent is needed to know without error. This is the *infallible* teaching from Vat I.<br />Thank you.<br />You seem more interesting in proving you are right, then understanding what is true.<br />But I thank you for letting me respond."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you not see how faith presupposes reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4277" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the hang up here is the admixture of error point. That needs to be addressed to move forward otherwise this could continue to go in circles like so many epicycles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4278" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7yKg57tPVU<br />What happens when a bird hits a jet engine<br />Ever wonder what would happen if birds were sucked into a jet engine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4279" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, that is going to happen anyway, we are in The Never Ending Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4280" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the thread is intended to move epicyclically. (You beat me, Daniel.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4281" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We should also all take a moment and recall all the times we have obstinately held a position even though we recognized, however vaguely, that the other had a better argument and position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4282" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well then this part of the conversation is retrograde motion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4283" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T15:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Some people" is a distinction you've not admitted before, Peregrine. So basically, what you're saying is: you agree with Vatican I that natural theology is quite possible without revelation, but that there will always be some error admixed; and that, with revelation, metaphysics is purified of that but without losing its relatively independent status?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4284" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is really hard, sometimes, to change one's mind and to admit error. Especially publically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4285" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, let's talk about what it means to be infallibly infallible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4286" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes John Boyer I have seen and recorded now four periods of retrograde motion. These are also known as "Dark Ages"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4287" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Usually increased participation from Catherine is a herald of a new Renaissance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim Moore is our "storm crow."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4289" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Scott, that is really all the response we're going to get?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4290" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">there can be no dark ages on the NET only varying degrees of dog-returning-to-vomit-edness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4291" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am very sensitive to those degrees Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't judge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">RESPOND thus: can an atheist follow Aquinas and be convinced without error as Adler?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4294" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a strong stomach</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really thought something great was going to happen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">enlightenment?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4297" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4298" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"><sigh></p>
</li>
<li id="post_4299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then it wouldn't be neverending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4300" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hegelian synthesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That never ends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, let's take a look at his response:<br />Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason alone, but not without some admixture of error. Revelation and assent is needed to know without error. This is the *infallible* teaching from Vat I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">see? now we're back to Hegel. Take out Phenomenology of Spirit, add Heidegger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">one can admit that Aristotle had errors. But in principle it is not necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4305" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer you suggested that we tackle "the admixture of error" part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps a Hegelian duel is in order</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4307" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does that mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What must it mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4309" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Lendman has now taken the role of Tutor . . . </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4310" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TACers are arrogant jerks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4311" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's go through this line by line</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They really are, even if they're right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4313" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng, join in!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4314" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the internet isn't known for friendliness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4315" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T15:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys must have really boring jobs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4316" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's look at source of quote first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4317" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But we are friendly, arrogant jerks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if you get a few drinks in us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good idea John Boyer!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4320" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha I am still waiting for classes to start. I am still on vacation!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4321" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, being a professor/grad student leaves a fair amount of free time which can be used for productive ends or Facebook. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle knew by reason that God exists but with some admixture of error. <br />Encyclicals must be read in context, not so much on facebook.<br />Some encyclicals say Thomas is pre-eminent. This does not mean this is all the theology we study. We must study what the Church teaches in Her fullness, and make assent to this.<br />This knowledge precedes metaphysics, so why does TAC not teach it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4323" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we take this somewhat seriously please? Even if we can't change PG's mind we may be able to understand his position with more clarity and then how to answer it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or just very, very good at avoidance behavior.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4325" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, that is a good question, but we are looking at your response from above first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4326" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB: your claim that "this knowledge precedes metaphysics" needs clarification. What do you mean by "precedes"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4327" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Particularly, we are trying to discern what admixture of error means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4328" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are two questions there PB. I think it better to address the issue of natural knowledge of god and hash that out before making an assertion and then demanding an answer as to why TAC doesn't live up to it. That's avoiding the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4329" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One thing at a time. . . Ahh nvm this is Facebook </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4330" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, Scott just said "Aristotle knew by reason that God exists but with some admixture of error.<br />Encyclicals must be read in context, not so much on facebook.<br />Some encyclicals say Thomas is pre-eminent. This does not mean this is all the theology we study. We must study what the Church teaches in Her fullness, and make assent to this.<br />This knowledge precedes metaphysics, so why does TAC not teach it?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4331" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So where is that quote from anyway?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4332" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say that the phrase in question ultimately comes from Aquinas, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Das Wahre ist so der bacchantische Taumel, an dem kein Glied nicht trunken ist, und weil jedes, indem es sich absondert, ebenso unmittelbar auflöst,—ist er ebenso die durchsichtige und einfache Ruhe."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Some people" as in you guys. Get it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">see..... here comes Linda</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4336" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ST I, Q. 1, A. 1 Co "I answer that, It was necessary for man's salvation that there should be a knowledge revealed by God besides philosophical science built up by human reason. Firstly, indeed, because man is directed to God, as to an end that surpasses the grasp of his reason: "The eye hath not seen, O God, besides Thee, what things Thou hast prepared for them that wait for Thee" (Isaiah 64:4). But the end must first be known by men who are to direct their thoughts and actions to the end. Hence it was necessary for the salvation of man that certain truths which exceed human reason should be made known to him by divine revelation. Even as regards those truths about God which human reason could have discovered, it was necessary that man should be taught by a divine revelation; because the truth about God such as reason could discover, would only be known by a few, and that after a long time, and with the admixture of many errors. Whereas man's whole salvation, which is in God, depends upon the knowledge of this truth. Therefore, in order that the salvation of men might be brought about more fitly and more surely, it was necessary that they should be taught divine truths by divine revelation. It was therefore necessary that besides philosophical science built up by reason, there should be a sacred science learned through revelation."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4337" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">THEN PB doesnt deny the statement. AND AN ATHEIST like Adler can follow Aquinas and be without error. (Daniel)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What kind if necessary is Thomas using there? Sorry if that's an easy one, but he says necessary even with those things that could have taken a long time to come to know by natural reason and by a few.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4339" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Side note, I appreciate the sentiment behind the use of the Arabic "N" profile pic, but I get lost as to who is talking sometimes. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NECESSARY to avoid error but more importantly for salvation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4341" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, the obvious reply, Lauren, although I don't think this is really answering you fully, is that the preambula fidei can be known by reason. However, since many cannot figure them out by reason alone due to difficulty (and time involved that most people don't have), they are revealed in revelation. The same would be said of the 10 commandments, which many argue are precepts of natural law, and thus discoverable by reason. However, there was still a need to give them by divine revelation because not everyone figured out that theft or murder or adultery are wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that quote is from Ott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4343" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Link plz?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order. (De fide.)"<br />http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm V.9</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4345" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So the necessity is not because man cannot get there on his own, but it is more effective to have it through revelation so more men are saved. (Sorry, for just repeating, but it seems we've had the difficulty of necessity earlier on)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, Edward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4347" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, that's my meaning, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If someone has the actual book by Ott, it might be nice to see what he cites for that proposition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">except knowing the religious and moral truths of the natural order is not the same as being saved</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4350" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also find it interesting that that formulation says "morally impossible" rather than "impossible".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My guess is Aquinas, given the formula.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4352" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland: Not ALL TACers; Mr. Collins is not a jerk. From the archives:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More from the same thread:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4354" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4355" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T15:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/emily.norppa/posts/512239741478<br />Emily Norppa<br />A few years ago, Dr. Kelly wrote an article for the TAC newsletter about why we study math. Does anyone happen to have a copy of that which they could send me? Let me know and I'll private message my email address to you.<br />Also, other articles about why we study math that aren't simply STEM-related would be great.<br />Andrew Seeley Sean Collins Richard Delahide Ferrier Edward Wassell Gregory Froelich Brian Dragoo Nick Ruedig Tom Sundaram</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. So man can know some, but not all the truths of the faith through reason. But not all men can through reason, hence the way revelation is considered necessary. (Sorry!) If so then are disagreement with PG would be the some vs all vs any men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4357" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, that wouldn't explain why it's listed under "Dogmas of the Catholic Church"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4359" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But as the original source of the formula...unless Aquinas is going back to something prior. The similarity of wording is striking to my eye at least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This just occurred me, but do TAC'ers read Frege? Catch my drift?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, sorry, I don't mean interrupt your victory lap, your spiking of the football. BUT, Holy Church teaches revelation is needed to know the Lord without error.<br />So why not study that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, I think what the Church teaches is that most people need to have the both the preambles and the articles of faith revealed to them in order to prevent errors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, at least in principle, it is possible for someone to come to know all the preambles without revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So to know ALL the truths yes, but for some men they can know some of the truths through reason..., right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4365" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the disagreement is rather "some men can know the truths of the moral and natural order" vs. "entire deposit of the faith" - the latter, no one has claimed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4366" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^THIS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4367" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there an implication here, somewhere, that Catholics must know how to read? I sure hope not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nor would anyone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4369" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">rather I think the context of Vatican I would be helpful. What, historically, caused the anathema?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4370" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T15:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure that it would follow that you have to know how to read inorder to reason to truths.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4371" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">People saying things that were wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4372" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, I've heard it helps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never know if you are serious? Is there a way to tell?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4374" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean Nicaea is a response to Arianism, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4375" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All those Roman Nazis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is VI a response to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4377" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think to rationalism and fideism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb, it was Newman (See above and below this comment. But seriously as y'all know i think he thunk the same.) . . . . It is a consequence of empirical nominalism: viz. fideism and immanentism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4379" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(i.e. the followers of Descartes and those of Pascal)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahahahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4381" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Taking Descartes and Pascal as metaphors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trent anathematized Jansenism, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Trent was 16th century, Jansenism was 17th</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4384" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So is PB's position fideistic? or some new thing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jansenism<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4386" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Jansenism has primarily to do with the role of grace in salvation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4387" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think PB's position comes to fideism, although he doesn't admit that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4388" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was thinking Pascal....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pascal was 17th century</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I was thinking the canons on justification.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4391" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T15:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I admit it does not come to fideism. I have a great example... (In meeting)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is interesting: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15303a.htm<br />CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vatican Council<br />www.newadvent.org<br />The twentieth and up to 1912, the last ecumenical council, opened on 8 December, 1869, and adjourned on 20 October, 1870<br />August 27 at 3:56pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Michael Beitia Pascal in relation to Jansenism, canons on justification from Trent. Sorry at "work" still, getting distracted by life. Excuse incomplete thoughts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T15:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT PB doesnt deny it . . . only without errors. He insists on studying sacred science to correct the errors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, VI seemed more concerned with rationalism than with fideism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4395" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T15:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">(rationalism is also more of a danger at TAC, as far as I can tell)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Based on Pascal's Penses, it seemed like it was just about the Pope being wrong and talking about Athanasius... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He doesnt grasp that Aquinas has done this already and is smarter than pb in his ability to do so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4398" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bowing out to go to work. I'll wade through all this later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4399" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND THAT IT is necessary to develop reason before approaching sacred science: Jesuits: 3 years of latin and greek before 3 years of lit/rhetoric before logic before philosophy before ANY THEOLOGY . . . well i should say metaphysics is followed by sacred Scripture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4400" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T16:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So wait! That's just another distinction we've added/clarified. Necessary for salvation vs necessary for studying Sacred Theology (sorry this just became clear to me as one of the issues we were having...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Maybe because half this conversation takes place at unreasonable hours)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4402" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB is that which happens when theology precedes the other arts \ sciences: a concrete refutation of his position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4403" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T16:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">**necessary** for metaphysical knowledge without some error.<br />Have good example. <br />Plz stnd by.<br />In mtg.<br />Rock on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. So metaphysical (no clue what we mean by that). But we can have some truths through reason without any error, just it is limited and rare (not all men or all truths)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WE ACTUALLY can follow aquinas (if wise enough) without error, withoup faith. On our own no chance, these days. PB might grant this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4406" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">metaphysics is the study of being as being and of the first cause (God), Lauren.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4407" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I think an example of the kind of admixture of error there would be is something like this: Aristotle knew that God was personal, probably thought God was only one person, however. Thus, there would be an admixture of error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4408" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T16:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle knew God was personal?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see why not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4410" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T16:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Evidence of any kind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and didn't see his esse = essentia. But, yes. Not sure he had the concept of personal (since his understanding of the eternity of soul wasnt personal)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4412" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T16:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Knew he had intellect (+ therefore will)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4413" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T16:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A person is "an individual substance of a rational nature". Rational nature is defined by possession of intellect. Aristotle knew God had intellect. .: Aristotle knew God was personal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T16:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(even if he didn't state as much explicitly)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't that Thomas's definition, Edward Langley, not Aristotle's?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Curiously my sixth sense perceives some doubt of the proposition PB doesnt really deny (I think) among TACers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4417" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T16:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boethius was loooong after Aristotle, and Aristotle does not speak of persons, does he? And St. Thomas further develops that definition until even the old Catholic Encyclopedia says it is almost entirely different from Boethius's. In fact, of course, "person" is developed via complicated Christian theology.<br />Aristotle so far as I know, when speaking about what we take to be him speaking about God, never indicates that God has a will or refers to God in any personal way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just trying to think of an example, but this is interesting, now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One would best look to his ethics to see his notion of a personal God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4420" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T16:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was such a bad TAC student, when you guys start doing this all I can think is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU<br />Revenge of the Nerds - NERDS!<br />Clip from Revenge of the Nerds where Ogre and the other football players scream "NERDS!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4421" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, from what admittedly little we have of Aristotle, he seems to speak of God in remarkably careful and one might say sparse ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4422" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T16:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where in his Ethics?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Keep looking, Daniel, cause it's not there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4425" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, based on lecture notes, he said a lot of sparse things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Keep denying Samantha Cohoe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4427" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T16:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim Cantu: But to me this is also the fun stuff we talk about when we get hammered and party too...dammit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, so give us ANY evidence of a personal God in Aristotle, anywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4429" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T16:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--Don't you know that Aristotle was the only man ever to be reincarnated? He came back as Thomas Aquinas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4430" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you really need these wild anachronisms to prove your point, guys?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4431" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wanted to bounce these examples off you guys. There are two examples. Let me know what you think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4432" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said, it was just the first example that popped into my head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4433" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is fun though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4434" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T16:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I vaguely recall stuff at the end of the metaphysics that could be understood to imply a personal God. I don't think that Aristotle had developed that idea though. And I'm too lazy to look it up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4435" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-27T16:55:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously Aristotle never calls God a person, but he calls Him a living being: « If, then, God is always in that good state in which we sometimes are, this compels our wonder; and if in a better this compels it yet more. And God is in a better state. And life also belongs to God; for the actuality of thought is life, and God is that actuality; and God's self-dependent actuality is life most good and eternal. We say therefore that God is a living being, eternal, most good, so that life and duration continuous and eternal belong to God; for this is God. » Sounds kind of "personal" in Daniel Lendman's sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4436" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T16:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hammered at a party is the only time I feel the self-confidence to participate in these discussions, other than shouting nerds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's back, though, so I will put it aside for now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, Joel, that's gold. I'm going to remember that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle's prime mover was an individual intellectual being and to that extant personal (though the Latin term wasnt used)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Pater Edmund, that was the quote I was going to look up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, by personal, you just mean "living?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund--That's what I was thinking of. But I don't think Aristotle had developed that anywhere close to STA's idea of "person."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4443" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most of the time I only participate in this thread when I've had a nice glass of single malt scotch or rye whiskey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4444" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But He was living, knowing, and willing. What more do we need?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not denying that the notion of person is a real development.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, the first two anyway. (Per Aristotle)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4447" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do we have willing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel beat me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread moves crazy fast</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4450" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It also has sudden jumps between topics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4451" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--would you disagree that "The Doll House", "Billy Bud" and Flaubert could easily be dumped from Senior Seminar?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4452" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-27T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-27T17:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, how bout them Bears?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-27T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-27T17:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading back up the thread and thinking big pictures and gravely risking initiating a discussion I totally do not want....... Isn't saying that "What the Church says is true is true because the Church says it's true" madly circular? And kind of an insult to God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4454" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I forgot we read those ones. I think Doll House is important, but the others, meh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4455" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T17:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I'm not on vacation, or on facebook, I liaise with States and Tribes in the Heartland. The Santee Sioux of Niobrara know God exists by looking at nature. They call God the Great Spirit. He created the stars and the moon and the fish and everything that came forth from the mouth of the Fish. They know God with admixture of error. Now, most of the Tribe became Catholic about 100 years ago. They still believe in the Great Spirit, but they call Him God the Father now, and since they have been taught the Faith, they know Him without admixture of error. They even say they always knew God existed. It's just that now they know God exists without error. So, this shows that you can know God by reason and nature, but you need revelation to know God without error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't remember Billy Bud at all. Did we skip that seminar?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4457" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T17:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Billy Budd was a snoozefest. Imminently forgettable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4458" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T17:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does the first mover move for a reason? If if does, then that is a final cause, and that is good, and that is the proper object of the will. Therefore etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4459" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T17:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwCiQASnw6o<br />Dallas Is Going Down<br />Marc Miller, an enthusiastic Buffalo Bills Fan, predicts the outcome of Super Bowl XXVII, then just starts yelling. (Final Score: Dallas 52, Buffalo 17) Clip...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not I! As Henry Zepeda can attest. "Jimmy legs" was my main take away. That and heavy handed tripe about the state of nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah - there is no talk of God's will in 'stotle. I'm not at all sure what we would mean by speaking of a *personal* God in terms of what we know of his thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Flaubert seminar is what I don't remember.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel-- that argument is just the worst.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Funny, brilliant men have made that argument. More fully developed of course, but that is what it is in essence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Flaubert was at DeCaen's house. I think we talked about how weird and disturbing the stories were, and how Madame Bovary was better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you really willing to say that the First Mover moves without any purpose or order in mind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brilliant men have not made that argument to say that Aristotle must have made those extrapolations and inferred a concept that didn't really even exist yet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4468" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh right. All I remember is the artwork at his house. I've also never read Madame Bovary for some reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, as I said above, "I am not denying that the notion of person is a real development."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">eeeeehhhhhh....... make that "hadn't even been explicated yet."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4471" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T17:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nevertheless, Aristotle new that God to be Living, knowing, and willing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4472" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. Booo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you don't really expect me to recall (or have read) anything from "above," do you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4474" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T17:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I realize that this is a point of contention among many philosophers, but I also know when I make a good argument, and I did make a good argument. You may not like how it concludes, you may even have reasons aside from your derisive reactions, but I have been studying philosophy and theology at two different graduate institutions and think that I merit the respect of anyone, but especially of one whom, at least up to now, I considered a friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4475" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My favorite part about Aristotle having a concept of the will is how explicitly he takes up the notion in the Nicomachean Ethics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is a second example, and let me know your thoughts. <br />St. Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception, because of his adherence to Aristotle's moral and metaphysical teaching on the human soul. He said that that Mary was freed from sin after conception because ensoulment takes place after fertilization. So he had metaphysical knowledge but with error. <br />A further unfolding of revelation by the Church was needed to correct the error. Dogma corrected metaphysics. A body-soul unity comes into existence at conception. New science supports this claim. Under a microscope, identical twins are generated by a second soul in a cluster cells, not by a division of cells.<br />Revelation is conveyed by the Church in Her Scripture and dogma, which informs sacred theology, and this is necessary to remove error from reason and metaphysics. (This is different than reading Aristotle and praying and going to Mass.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T17:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see another discussion is taking place. Please look at my examples when you can, and let me know what you think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woah, I have to go make dinner, but before I ruin our friendship, Daniel, I was not objecting to the outline of your argument, just your argument as attributed to Aristotle. He doesn't say that stuff, and there isn't any reason to think he would have thought it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What Samantha said. But I hope you know not to take anything I say seriously, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Under a microscope, identical twins are generated by a second soul in a cluster cells, not by a division of cells." Uhhh...scratches head...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4481" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I thought my font looked very light-hearted and bantery, but I see I caused offense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah, one more time: it's tangential in the sense that it was brought up as an example, but A) it is very unclear what anyone would mean when they say Aristotle talks about a personal God, and B) Aristotle does not speak of God having a will, or providence, in any serious fashion in the admittedly little we have of his thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's very interesting that you can see a soul under a microscope. Who knew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha we believe what the Church teaches because God granted her authority confirmed by miracles and the testimony of saints (by their words, deeds, and blood): this by the gift of Faith strengthened by acts of Faith, also a gift.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4485" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought it was his understanding of "conception" that was the problem. Also Thomas was avoiding the prevalent error of those who claimed Mary was cleansed before conception (which doesn't work because before conception there is no person).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4486" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard that there is some disagreement amongst Thomists as to what exactly Thomas taught w/r/t the IC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4487" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T17:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We need to get some Scotists and Thomists in here to squabble at this point. Summon them! <br />FIGHT!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not circular.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread hasn't had a soundtrack in a good long while Matthew J. Peterson.... what gives?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4490" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Yah, one more time: Aristotle don'" He don' what, Mr. Peterson? Edit: it is clear now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4491" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-27T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-27T17:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In honour of the feast day: https://soundcloud.com/wiseblood.../07-eulogy-for-monica<br />7. Eulogy For Monica<br />On August 28, 2014, Wiseblood Records will release its inaugural collection of music: Late to Love, by Sam Rocha. "Eulogy for Monica" is the seventh track of that album. Pre-order your copy tod</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not like we can go on Facebook and look up all his past conversations. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Meagan, "what the Church says is true" is theological data about revelation, used in sacred theology, to correct errors in metaphysics, and to further support the reasonability of belief.<br />This is a lot different than saying knowing God by reason is the beginning of Wisdom. <br />You can't really know God without error by reason. I know Langley disputes that, but I think that's the truth. <br />Consider the Native American. They knew God by reason and nature and myth. They knew God without revelation, but with admixture of error.<br />Even St. Thomas knew metaphysics by reason but admixture of error. Consider his false teaching on the Immaculate Conception was derived from Aristotle's false metaphysical notion of ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4494" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-27T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-27T17:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm anticipating this thread soon topping 1,000 comments per day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4495" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T17:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ensoulment isn't a metaphysical concept; it is a physical concept</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4496" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John-- sorry, were you directing your comment at some remark of mine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4497" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is that a yes or a no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And BTW, as informed Catholics, how can you claim that your understanding of Dogma didn't inform your reasoning to God? That being the case, why don't you study all of it? <br />You don't think Aristotle's metapjysics was without error, do you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, Daniel, I love you! Come back!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle predicated the essential attributes of person to God but not the name or others, viz. one, thinking, and living.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4501" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T17:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante I just got home and come to find, as usual, you beat me to it. It is a biological concept, considering the notion of "ensoulment" is in some way the "form" of the living thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4502" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T17:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine it's really hard to take you seriously when you can't tell what falls under physics and what falls under metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-27T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-27T17:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I agree with you about your two points " A) it is very unclear what anyone would mean when they say Aristotle talks about a personal God, and B) Aristotle does not speak of God having a will, or providence, in any serious fashion in the admittedly little we have of his thought."<br />Though I would not say "very unclear," but "difficult to see," perhaps. <br />I don't think that my argument concludes such that one must agree with me. It is an historical question, "Did Aristotle think X" and consequently is open to a very limited degree of certitude.<br />I am content to leave it at that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4505" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">THese guys are all being jerks. Why don't I get to be a jerk? No fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4506" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T17:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">be a jerk then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4507" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apparently if I'm a jerk I lose friends. I call double standard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4508" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T17:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Daniel Lendman's actual point was entirely valid, in my opinion, and I think everyone else's: he was just picked on a little by jerks for choosing a suspect example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4509" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T17:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, PB's first example is support for what the other side is saying, that is, the tribe that comes to know God truly, already had a notion of God. Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a (if mixed with error and not fully formed) notion of God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, PB's first example is support for what the other side is saying, that is, the tribe that comes to know God truly, already had a notion of God. Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a (if mixed with error and not fully formed) notion of God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T17:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, PB's first example is support for what the other side is saying, that is, the tribe that comes to know God truly, already had a notion of God. Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a (if mixed with error and not fully formed) notion of God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4512" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T17:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, if memory serves, God in Aristotle is in the category of substance....if memory serves. And doesn't God move by final causality alone in Metaphysics 12?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T17:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, you can be my friend (in part because I'm probably WAY bigger of a jerk)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4514" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T17:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oooh it's dinner time.<br />Taco Tuesday - on a Wednesday!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4515" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't want to be YOUR friend, I want to be Daniel Lendman's friend. Sending you a friend request, though. (who are you?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4516" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T17:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah Beitia who are you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLIerfXuZ4<br />The Who - Who Are You?<br />Music video by The Who performing Who Are You?. (C) 1998 Polydor Ltd. (UK)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4518" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is way more fun than making dinner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4519" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or working.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4520" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In 1988, however, the Committee report stated that any illegal zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4521" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re the Immaculate Conception--I have no opinion here, nor am I saying that Garrigou-Lagrange is necessarily correct--but this link has some interesting texts from Thomas that suggest that Thomas at the end of his life held that Mary was immaculately conceived: http://taylormarshall.com/.../did-thomas-aquinas-deny...<br />Did Thomas Aquinas Deny the Immaculate Conception? (Garrigou-Lagrange)<br />taylormarshall.com<br />We got fired up the other day in our discussion of Blessed John Duns Scotus and the Immaculate Conception.It seems that I may have been to quick to speak by pas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4522" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T17:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's pretty clear I think Thomas always affirmed the basic idea of the doctrine, while denying the "how" account due to his physics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4523" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't been paying attention, does Peregrin just hate philosophy and St. Thomas? Is that a fair summary?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4524" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T17:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine seems to hate TAC, and thinks that philosophy is just a penumbra of revealed theology, pertaining to created things</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4525" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-27T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-27T17:55:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">One does not simply "summarize" The Thread, Sam. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He always affirmed that she was free from original sin at birth, but the Summa fairly explicitly denies the conception bit. Of course, other texts fairly plainly affirm it. Again, I'm no expert, and if Thomas did hold that she wasn't, I wouldn't be bothered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4527" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T17:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">but she wasnt asking about the Thread, just about PB</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T17:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, good thing we study theology, too, then, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4529" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T17:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Particularly TAC, b/c way too much math, too much philosophy and it doesn't start w/ "Here are the doctrines of the church. They, and only they, are the data of theology." Plus I hear TAC lets Protestants in. Ewwwwwww!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4530" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T18:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That last bit may not * actually * be an accurate representation of his position. (Though I get the feeling it isn't far from that). In any event, TAC doesn't do enough to instruct its students on what the Church teaches and what they must assent to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4531" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"∴" all they have written seems as straw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante i like the way you capitalized the Thread. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine G, were you the first to capitalize?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">final causality</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4535" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">its been capitalized for some time, and has its own FB page</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An event's final cause is the aim or purpose being served by it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">final causality of The Thread....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who am I? I am who .... just finished eating tacos. TAC 00</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4539" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:08:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread has also taken the first faltering steps toward the horizon of self-consciousness, almost like a new Adam. A digital Adam waking up to himself on the morning of a new era of the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4540" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way I am very disappointed to come back and find that nothing was settled after we quieted down enough for the Peregrine to speak his response a few hours ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4541" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread is hive-mind self actualization. The Bootstrapping of world spirit. Jormungandr</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4542" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T18:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Insert the monkey scene from 2001 Space Odyssey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4543" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Neverending Thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4544" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T18:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about we take this in a different direction, say, which TAC class is best? TAC06>>> TAC00, for instance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4545" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">pansies. you couldn't handle the ostrich</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you can't "take" the Thread anywhere</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Thread takes you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't hate TAC, JA, I just think it is flawed because they tolerate an admixture of error when studying philosophy by denying, from its students, dogma and sacred theology from its curriculum. I think it is not being honest: It leads students to believe that they are receiving a truly Catholic liberal education, when they are not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mathew Petterson knows to much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4550" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T18:12:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">We don't appropriate the thread. The thread appropriates us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4551" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">you see how Peregrott just started this all over again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4552" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T18:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do TACers cringe at mention of emphatic statements of what the Church teaches? Could this be what PB takes offense at? Are they overly questioning of doctrine for PB?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4553" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">golden thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the golden gnostic thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4555" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T18:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmmm, that might be true. I got here an hour ago feeling very superior to everyone who had spent their afternoon arguing with PB... now look at me..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4556" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, PB wants a body of doctrine (compendized where and in what, exactly?) to serve as the core of the program, with a plain systematic relation to every subject and text in the curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hang on, Samantha, you're right 6 tacos are better than none</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4558" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ostrich tacos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">with no math, JAson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4560" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Frank, I've been there. it is a dark place</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">let us be facebook friends mb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4562" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh Frank you might not know what you're asking there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4563" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">too late HAHAHAHAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4564" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T18:16:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Heaviest Burden. What if a demon crept after you into your loneliest loneliness some day or night, and said to you: "This Neverending Thread, as you live it at present, and have lived it, you must live it once more, and also innumerable times; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and every sigh, and all the unspeakably small and great in this Thread must come to you again, and all in the same series and sequence - and similarly this spider and this moonlight among the trees, and similarly this moment, and I myself. The eternal sand-glass of the Thread will ever be turned once more, and you with it, you speck of dust!" - Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth, and curse the demon that so spoke? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment in which you would answer him: "You are a God, and never did I hear anything so divine!" If that thought acquired power over you as you are, it would transform you, and perhaps crush you; the question with regard to all and everything: "Do you want this once more, and also for innumerable times?" would lie as the heaviest burden upon your activity! Or, how would you have to become favourably inclined to yourself and to The Neverending Thread, so as to long for nothing more ardently than for this last eternal sanctioning and sealing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4565" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia is an elemental spirit, and you have let him into your virtual dwelling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, you and me are facebook friends...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4567" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm vastly nicer than Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4568" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread has really been the Axis Mundi all along in disguise. It runs through all, and all turns about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4569" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">choke the demon with the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4570" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak you are rapidly becoming one of my fav FB people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4571" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">5000 is in sight...thalassa! thalassa!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael-- I see what you did there. Isak should write science fiction poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4573" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">axis mundi............</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4574" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:19:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any minute now the old gods of all the myths will take hold of The Thread at any point, and rotate it divinely about in a circle, thereby creating a Cosmic Conic Section. All things will emanate from that center point in slowly widening concentric circles when seen at a certain point in time, or event. And Zeus shall dangle Hera in chains from one end of The Golden Thread, and we all shall weep for our children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4575" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">metaphysics of the axis mundi and the divine milieu</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4576" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm glad you're enjoying my growing madness JA haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4577" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">naaaaaaaah the old gods of myth, war-lust and fertility, chance....have never released their hold</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA pushed this conversation along with a false suggestion. And may it continue until we find the truth about Faith and Reason. I think Aristotle and St. Thomas would want it that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">faith is the bridge between reason and the Divine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is the false suggestion, Peregrine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is PB the homunculus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pb ain't his name.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">okay, SW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oof.... JAson, you're in the bay area, right?:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W959czbBJAA<br />Here We Go Again - OPERATION IVY<br />Lyrics- It's not the ending Its the beginning The ground is moist and it rained last night Smells like smoke and it smells so clean The sun is shining down l...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4585" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm waiting for Peregrine to tell me what my "false suggestion" was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4586" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T18:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">i finally figured out Matthew's joke. TNET must form a circle (or extended a cylinder) and we are all hamsters making it return to the beginning. And we are chasing a hopeless cause, pb. I feel really stupid now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4587" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the final causality isn't hopeless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4588" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T18:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it does sound like Peregrin's proposed curriculum would be BORING</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4589" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T18:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you mean you don't have a dog in this fight? This is a TAC thing, not a Catholic thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4590" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">still waiting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">code duelo, JA?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4592" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:31:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">....still waiting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4593" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T18:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though honestly, as has been said, PB's initial questions are interesting. And it is a rare TACer indeed who does not have a laundry list of complaints about the place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4594" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course! the problem is that PB simply will not admit when his claims have been refuted, and he then repeats the charges ad nauseam</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4595" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T18:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger: Hopeless? Joke?<br />Maybe, if the return is eternal, it is no longer a return.<br />Maybe the joke is real, and the real is the joke.<br />Maybe there is no longer any need for hope, nor for chasing, when you become part of The Neverending Thread.<br />Don't feel stupid. <br />Be. <br />Be wise.<br />Let the common good of the Thread heal you as part to whole.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4596" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T18:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, but if the complaint is that TAC isn't Catholic enough, then that's weird, but I'm not sure I care.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4597" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well Samantha it's not simply a complaint, it's an actual claim about the principles and ratio studiorum of the college</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4598" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">a claim which happens to be false</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4599" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T18:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yet - and yet. The longer one refuses to let go and embrace The Neverending Thread, the more one contributes to its being and growth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My claims have not been refuted. You and others stated Vat I claims you can know God by reason alone. In fact, you can, but not without admixture of error; as the Native Americans, and even Thomas and Aristotle, can know God by reason alone but not without error. You need an outlay of revelation in dogma and theology to perfect reason.<br />This begs the question: why does TAC not teach this way, yet claims it presents a truly Catholic liberal education.<br />IS THIS REASONABLE?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">though some of the things he's saying do point to problems within the program, as almost all of us readily admit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4602" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T18:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a question - and call me dim-witted - but who is the Final Arbiter of what is truly a "Catholic liberal education"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4603" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">MAGISTERIUM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4604" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T18:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Haggard" data-date="2014-08-27T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Haggard at 2014-08-27T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man, we're going to break 5,000!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4606" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T18:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In a MAGISTERIUM...One MAGISTER...<br />Coming Soon To A Thread Near You</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4607" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T18:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The main problem with the curriculum is that it's not all other curriculums simultaneously. That really sucks about it...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4608" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T18:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know - maybe we should just only read things written by saints. That'd fix everything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even St. Thomas could not know God and metaphysics by reason alone, without some error.<br />You how come you guys say you can?<br />How come you hate dogma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4610" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T18:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Next year people will be giving up The Neverending Thread for Lent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4611" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:43:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, that's a backpedaling save from your earlier unqualified assertions.<br />The question isn't admixture of error (which might be quite small, actually), the question is whether metaphysics is relatively independent and mostly gets it right about God in the formalities it is able to consider Him under. And it is, and does. Where revelation secures metaphysics is in the very highest principial level (creator/creature distinction, preeminently; but also things we would never know by reason, but don't necessarily deny otherwise, like the Trinity), but revelation needs- your Church's words, not just mine- metaphysics to elaborate itself as a human science. And the metaphysics it thus uses is relatively self-standing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4612" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T18:43:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the year 2020, the US Bishops will tell American Catholics they must give up The Neverending Thread on all normal Fridays.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, what would it take to change your mind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T18:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, the Magisterium defines what is truly a Catholic liberal education. Is Peregrine representing the Magisterium then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How come you guys don't know the relationship between revelation, dogma and theology -- and how it informs metaphysics?<br />How come you claim you can know God without error by reason alone, when you don't know this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4616" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">whereas you Peregrine are using the fact of admixture of error, without ever noting whether it is really significant error, to invalidate a relatively self-standing metaphysics and replace it with a "sapiential wisdom" which looks like Fideistic gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just askin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4618" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pope Peregrine represents nothing. He IS the Magisterium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4619" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T18:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB - stop inquisitioning us and ask yourself why you readily assented to... at least 2 different heresies....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4620" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine come on, you cant even tell the difference between physics and metaphysics, as in the Imm Con discussion! And you're saying *we* have problems with categories?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4621" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-27T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-27T18:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I want to know is what sort of computer voodoo Edward Langley is doing to compile those stats on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you guys believe you can know God and metaphysics by reason alone without some error?<br />Please say, yes or no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4623" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you didn't originally claim "without some error". Just acknowledge your mistakes, PB. It wont be the end of the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4624" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T18:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://i.imgflip.com/bkcf5.jpg<br />i.imgflip.com<br />i.imgflip.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4625" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:47:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">and man, next time TAC sends me a donation request I am sending the letter back marked "PAID"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4626" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T18:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">the irony: JA defending (or explaining rather) magisterial teaching to PB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, do you think you can know God or metaphysics by reason alone, always without error. <br />Yes or no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't look away from this thread...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fine, I'll say it. Yes, I believe one can know God and metaphysics by reason alone without some error. All that means is I say it's possible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St Thomas and the Church state you cannot know God and metaphysics by reason alone, always without error.<br />What say you, JA?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What say you Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No they don't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What say you, Mr. Langley, Mr. Smarty-pants?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4634" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T18:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to see citation for that, Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4635" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, that's not the issue, dear man. The issue is whether the error (if such is always necessary, and it's not clear that it is; see "easily") is substantially vitiating, or not. I have already given the orthodox account above. It is not necessarily vitiating enough to render metaphysics impossible without revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4636" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are you mocking Mr. Langley's intelligence, Peregrine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4637" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To reiterate:<br />The question isn't admixture of error (which might be quite small, actually), the question is whether metaphysics is relatively independent and mostly gets it right about God in the formalities it is able to consider Him under. And it is, and does. Where revelation secures metaphysics is in the very highest principial level (creator/creature distinction, preeminently; but also things we would never know by reason, but don't necessarily deny otherwise, like the Trinity), but revelation needs- your Church's words, not just mine- metaphysics to elaborate itself as a human science</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4638" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T18:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of curiosity, what metaphysical error are you claiming St Thomas made? Because all I recall are being pointed out thus far are errors either of physical science or theology proper, not metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What say you?<br />Can you know God and metaphysics by reason alone, always without error?<br />The Church says no.<br />St. Thomas' error on the Immaculate Conception demonstrates "no".<br />This being the case, why do you not teach dogma at TAC? <br />Is that reasonable?<br />What say you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T18:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ Bailiff, club this man. ^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4641" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T18:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would teaching dogma look like? I'm still not clear on how sophomore theology, or senior theology, just to take two examples, fail to qualify.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4642" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T18:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but discussing this idiosyncratic Nouvelle Theologie on steroids has been illuminating in certain respects</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THAT is i think the point he will give in on, JA. viz. What do we get wrong following STA in his metaphysics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T18:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of curiosity how do you understand Thomas's error on the immaculate conception?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, my good man, if that is your position, then you are ok with error in knowledge, which is crass.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie, see above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4647" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Answer the Duda, Peregrott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4648" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">because it was pointed out, AGAIN, earlier that St. Thomas re IC is not a metaphysical error</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4649" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T18:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">just sayin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4650" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T19:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What you pointed to above were problems w/ Thomas's understanding of physical science, or at most natural philosophy. One could also argue that Thomas also erred theologically in failing to understand Scripture and Tradition. But, at least as far as I can see, Thomas's metaphysical notions have nothing to do with why he didn't accept the immaculate conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so to answer "what say you?"<br />I say to you, Scott, that you question makes no sense because you have no idea what metaphysics is, since you make such a glaringly STUPID category error</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me recap. JA et al argue that reason alone is necessary for sacred theology. Church teaches that revelation is necessary to preserve reason from error about God and metaphysics. Escalante does not know how Church teaches revelation in Her dogmas and sacred theology.<br />What's wrong with this picture?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(57, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">unless by "metaphysics" you mean everything that you haven't defined away as "sacred theology" in which case you are a blathering idiot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4654" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T19:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's argued that reason alone is necessary for sacred theology? I think they've denied it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one ever said "reason alone"<br />Straw man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(takes drink)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4657" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">for realz, I'm at home now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4658" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine why don't you go ahead and find somewhere where I've said what you attribute to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4659" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have one more hour at work...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4660" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Thomas Quackenbush" data-date="2014-08-27T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-27T19:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like I've never seen any of thing things Peregrine claims except in his own posts. Perhaps he himself thinks these things, and hates himself for it, and is projecting on us as a coping mechanism...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really Peregrine, go ahead and find somewhere where I've said that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4662" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T19:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">People (and the Church) have claimed that God can be known with certainty by reason alone. You do see that this is not the same as saying that reason alone suffices for Sacred Theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4663" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only reason we are still all in this thread is the length of this thread.<br />The thread has become the cause of the thread.<br />Thus, this thread participates in divinity, and thus all of us who participate in this thread also participate in divinity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4664" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The position that disparages the study of metaphysics is ultimately Protestant and/or Kantian. Cf Regansburg Address</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">unfortunately it is a manichean divinity, and we're on the wrong side of it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's certainly not true that Protestantism disparages metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But still, we must press on, as participation in opposition is better than ceasing to be....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^actually that's false; I'm a Calvinist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4669" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is not an imitation of the divine. It's an imitation of twitter where everyone basically follows everyone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4670" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am pretty sure that no body has claimed that reason alone is necessary for theology. Earlier you objected to the claim that it was possible to have knowledge of God by reason alone, contrary to the magisterial pontifications of the pre and post conciliar church. But to suggest that the claim was reason alone was sufficient for theology is crass disrespect for the positions held</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4671" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hence the "or" put up your claws</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4672" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^and poor reading skillz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4673" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T19:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In his defense, his argumentum ab ignorantia seems invincible. He doesnt know what metaphysics or metaphor are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4674" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://massappeal.com/.../thug-life-knuckles-jason...<br />massappeal.com<br />massappeal.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4675" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or syllogism or the difference between some and all or.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We must conclude that TAC misleads, with crass ignorance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4677" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it possible to know cause & effect without the gift of revelation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4678" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB is too hopped up on all the attention he's getting in this thread to read and respond to things that have ACTUALLY BEEN SAID.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4679" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it possible to know of the division of mover and of moved in beings in motion?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conclude, Scott? Like the conclusion of a metaphor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4681" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Facebook is like an irresponsible bartender. If they were looking at this thread, we all would have been cut off by now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just waiting for Langley to recalculate the totals. I've got to be pushing a grand by now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wait what there are totals by contributor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4684" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course. *Lights match, sets paper on fire. Repeats*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">waaaay back pre 3500</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4687" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:17:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catechism of the Catholic Church<br />II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD <br />31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person. <br />32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe. <br />As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7 <br />And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8<br />33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God. <br />34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10 <br />35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4688" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T19:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">seriously, Beitia has had me lol more the last two days than the last 4 years from things read on fb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Dunkel nice catechism quote, but you need to quote from the Magisterium </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or the Deposit of Faith. That is also acceptable...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4691" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless you have a Humean epistemology leading to an event ontology, in which case you may think you know cause and effect, but you are wrong. Substance ontology and power model of causality FTW.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, he already heretically denied VI</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4693" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will now quote from the MYSTERIUM: "blah blah blah blah"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4694" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">quote from the Imperium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4695" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"we, who are about to die, salute you"....is that what you are looking for?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4696" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was thinking "Luke, I'm your father" but whatever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4697" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MB, I said "reason alone," but I was being reactionary and provocative. I shall avoid this. It clearly does more harm than good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4698" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T19:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Ave, Imperator, morituri te salutant"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4699" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And now for something completely different: http://youtu.be/jT6i1kw4rEQ<br />VIDEO - Dumbass Manages to Set Himself on Fire During Ice Bucket Challenge<br />(Gawker.com) - If you had to imagine the platonic form of a failed ALS Ice Bucket Challenge, it would probably involve a guy in camo cargo pants and an Ameri...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4700" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, it really makes no difference, IMHO. I'm just here for the lolz anyway</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4701" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T19:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This Thread really does need to be immortalized somehow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4702" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB: "We must conclude that TAC misleads, with crass ignorance."<br />Peregrine, I consider that a slap in the face with your glove. I accept your challenge and insist you choose your weapons. Put up, or shut up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh don't take him seriously (he's on the spectrum)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4704" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T19:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd again like to see citations for Peregrine's assertions. Otherwise it's just "blah blah blah."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4705" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^really not appropriate for an alumni thread, like really not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4706" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you should remove it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4707" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah, I'm old and prudish, I'm going to second that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4708" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T19:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb, he is NOT an heretic. As with faith, reason is PREREQUISITE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">okay, material heretic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The spectrum of what, MB?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Get rid of that ear garbage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum<br />Autism spectrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />en.wikipedia.org<br />The autism spectrum or autistic spectrum describes a range of conditions classified as neurodevelopmental disorders in the fifth revision of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 5th edition (DSM-5). The DSM-5, published in 2013, redefined the a…</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4713" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-27T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-27T19:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Dunkel - WTF was that..............................</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's another of my ways of being offensive, Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4715" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T19:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i now wish i could read his comments. "Crass ignorance" eminating from the fence of those teeth. The irony</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4716" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was nothing.....mostly an hilarious, but terribly imprudent music video</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4717" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's not saying anything worth hearing, Mr. Ruplinger. Take it as a badge of honor I suppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At TAC, the story goes, the go from class to class,<br />Their faith is in the seminar where ignorance is crass...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4719" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">we will forget it ever happened</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah yes, my friends, lose an argument by denying dogma, embrace error, and run.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My mind is boggled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4722" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what dogma have I denied, seriously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4723" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T19:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is what you've been doing, Peregrine, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4724" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and seriously, "run" that hasn't happened</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4725" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have denied no dogma, embraced no error, and done the opposite of run. What planet are you on, you darling cretin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4726" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Magisterius V, the most repetitive assertion filled planet in the galaxy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T19:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, Peregrine, I ask for proof of your assertions. You can't simply throw out inflammatory & accusatory comments without backing them up. Text, verse, and volume, please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4728" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh yes he can</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4729" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T19:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">trust me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4730" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T19:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, strike that: he CAN but he shouldn't. Poor form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4731" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JAson, you've been here since the beginning. I'm raising a glass for you right now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If knowledge of metaphysics and God by reason alone is not possible without error, and the Church provides a remedy in Her dogma and theology, why does TAC remain so crass by not allowing the Church's dogma and theology into its curriculum?<br />Why does the college teach that metaphysics is necessary for a full development of theology, when the opposite is true -- metaphysics can only be freed from error by theology informed by dogma.<br />Why did TAC establish its curriculum on this false notion? <br />Is this because TAC adheres to Liberalism instead of the truly Catholic liberal arts?<br />Or was it because the founders of the college were reactionary?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4733" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:41:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES! You uncovered the truth. TAC was established by modernists who cling to the heresy of Americanism and that Masonic invention of Vatican II.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4734" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:41:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uhm, Scott, "metaphysics is necessary for a full development of theology" <br />and <br />"Metaphysics can only be freed from error by theology"<br />are not contradictory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan Baird, what assertion? That Thomas erred in metaphysics? Or that TAC errs in its understanding of Faith and Reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">where did St. Thomas err in metaphysics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4737" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T19:42:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">In 2020 the bishops will allow children under seven who can read, as well as the old and infirm, to continue to use the Thread on Fridays. But all others will be encouraged to abstain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4738" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The smell of sulfur greets you as you approach the campus, a sign of the hellfire which lurks behind the gates of the campus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4739" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T19:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine: I guess I'm not clear on how TAC does not "allow" the Church's dogma and theology into its curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4740" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See the peregrine fly from my questions...... chicken really</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4741" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, are you a traditionalist? Just wondering...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4742" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^NO^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he isn't. Trust me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-27T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-27T19:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas Aquinas is called the Angelic doctor due to his grasp on sacred theology... and we devote considerable time to studying his work (to say nothing about other doctors of the Church) so, Peregrine, I'm really not seeing your point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4745" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess my University is bad because it now requires taking philosophy before theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uhm, Michael, mr smartest man in the room, who said these were contradictory?<br />I just said TAC errs by denying, in principle and practice, that metaphysics without relevation leads to error about God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4747" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you did, dumbass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4748" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I quote "THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4749" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T19:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*cough* Scotis was wrong about the IC also *cough*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB: "why does TAC remain so crass by not allowing the Church's dogma and theology into its curriculum?"<br />This is utter garbage, and anyone with half a brain can see that just by virtue of the fact that TAC students spend TWO FULL YEARS reading Thomas Aquinas himself (THE Doctor of the Church!), TAC as a school does not merely allow the Church's dogma into its curriculum, it wholly supports it. It gives Thomas THE position of importance.<br />The fact that you cannot even grant a modicum of respect to this argument or to the school tells me that you are a willfully ignorant man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CUA requires a year of philosophy too! And a semester of theology which may be done either semester </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4752" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T19:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So. Flogiston...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4753" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T19:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">pope pb excommunicates neopalagian meanies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4754" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T19:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, can you please enumerate the errors which Metaphysics reaches without revelation? Clearly enumerate them. Otherwise this shall continue to be a thread full of assertion, counter-assertion, snark, snark, snark, rinse repeat....not that I'm not enjoying the jokes, but seriously, can you please make a list of the errors which are admixed with the truth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4755" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't derail this Katie, I finally got him to answer me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey nonny nonny and a ha-cha-cha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4757" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T19:49:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">As an aside, this thread has made my friend list sky rocket. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan, TAC does not provide an outlay of the Church's theology informed by dogma. In fact, almost all of its students to not even know what this means. On the contrary, TACs Charter asserts that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. The curriculum of TAC is established on this false claim. This claim is false because metaphysics and knowledge of God is not without admixture of error by reason alone, but only by revelation; hence, the need for an outlay of the Church's dogmatic theology.<br />An example: Thomas and Aristotle erred in metaphysical understanding of the cause of the ensoulment, leading Thomas to argue against the Immaculate Conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4759" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T19:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone is making friends except Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4760" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">the cause of ensoulment is STILL biological, Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4761" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, do you know whence comes Dogma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante i think Peregrine Bonaventure just identified the premise of which he objects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">therefore, your example is NOT an example</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4764" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But yet another glaring category error</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4765" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T19:53:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">You sound similar to somebody who proposes the outlawing of butchering cattle because you can buy beef at the grocery store.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Theology can not be fully developed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4767" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nice....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, I just need to list one. Aristotle erred in his notion of ensoulment. Thomas erred on this point also. This was a moral and metaphysical question about the formal unity of man. This error was the reason why Thomas and the Dominicans denied the Immaculate Conception.<br />There are many examples.<br />The Church teaches that God and metaphysics cannot be known by reason alone without admixture of error.<br />The Church sacred and dogmatic theology, informed by revelation, purges metaphysics of error. <br />This is why TAC cannot rest on the claim that metaphysics and reason alone bring the full development of theology. This is why TAC must provide instruction of dogmatic theology, in order for it not to participate in crass ignorance.<br />Gotta run, people.<br />I love TAC.<br />What, 5000 posts now?<br />9000<br />What say you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4769" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T19:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i need to explain my above statement. PB doesnt deny V I as far as i can tell. The real problem is that to be an heretic, you have to understand 2 things: THAT you reject an article; and at least imprecisely at least what that article means. But on both counts, it is doubtful in pb's case. He has shown he cannot grasp words all the while railing against the need for reason to have Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T19:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I say that the denial of the Immaculate Conception was BIOLOGICAL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think pb is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4772" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T19:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does it matter if Thomas erred? Does that negate the necessity of metaphysics in explicating divine revelation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T19:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">immaculate conception is infallible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T20:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, to him, no to the rest of us. The IC is not a metaphysical point. It is a theological point, the repudiation of which was biological</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. IC is not infallible. It is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IC was when the magesterium declared it's infallibility...or maybe I'm wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, but saying that women don't have souls until X days after conception is a biological point, that was factually wrong.<br />Thought experiment: what if biology showed that DNA didn't show up until day 14 after implantation? then what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T20:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course. I'm word quibbling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4779" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie, please help me...was IC the only time the magesterium declared itself infallible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is the truth infallible?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is this Scott Weinberg? What is he like in person? I can't believe the things I'm reading, and I can't believe he's serious. Sometimes he says things that make me think I'm dealing with a human being. Am I?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T20:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott-bot (as I posted 4800 comments ago)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4783" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T20:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Frank - only twice did the Pope speak 100% infallibly. The Immaculate Conception, and Mary's Assumption body and soul into Heaven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4784" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-27T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-27T20:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe the other ex cathedra papal proclamation was the doctrine of the Assumption of the BVM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks Isak Benedict</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4786" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T20:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand the question. I meant only to say that infallible is a word meaning incapable of error. A statement is not infallible but the body declaring it might be</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">quibbling.... are you back in town?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak helped moi...no problem with quibbles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T20:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia. Yes! Mr. Morris. Apologies. I distracted from your question</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T20:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok so we can't read anyone that was ever wrong about any matter is what I'm getting out of this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still owe you a drink, and I'd still like to read your dis....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4792" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">lauren, pope benedict started his letter on faith with nietzsche...you tell me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what about Pope Peregrott?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia that was a german joke...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T20:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Correct, Lauren. That is the way to madness. Everyone is wrong except Pope Grottburg.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4796" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pastor Aeternus indicates a much broader range of infallibility: when he DEFINES a matter of Faith to the whole Church as the supreme teacher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4797" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">JPII infallibly taught on abortion and women priests (and one other matter i forget)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ahhh makes sense. So what is his understanding of the Immaculate Conception? Wait a second! Wasn't the reason it took so long to define because we had to make it "understandablish" aka it couldn't be a contradiction. (People during Thomas' time - and before- were saying it happened before conception which doesn't work since there was no human nature at that time) The IC took the Church almost 2000 years to define, it doesn't work well as an example for anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no it doesnt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4800" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HUGE recent slew of articles on whether canonizations are infallible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think it's an example that faith, is more pleasing to God than anything else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4802" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T20:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - there are disagreements about whether or not those instances meet all of the qualifications necessary for a teaching to be considered infallible. The two I mentioned are the only ones that meet every single criterion (as far as I know!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T20:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I"m out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4804" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously, for example, canonization is considered infallible too, but not (I think) to the same degree. (Maybe "degree" is the wrong word to use there?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T20:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grace perfecting nature does not mean reading Aristotle in a prayerful posture, as Daniel says.<br />It means reading metaphysics in light of the dogmatic theology of the Church informed by revelation.<br />So, a Catholic curriculum which includes "theology" but not the dogmatic theology of the Church, is fraudulent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4806" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that you know. I summarized the criteria. Its in Pastor Aeternus: only 3, maybe 4, criteria. But there is debate and need for clarification.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4807" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-27T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-27T20:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">One thing. It seems to me a tacit lesson of the curriculum is the capability of human error in all sciences. Nonetheless, the human mind is also capable to recognize errors. Theology has of course a greater authority, but aquinas didn't err because he refused to a submit to that authority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i read aristotle's metaphysics...very redundant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but Katie, at the end, it was all straw...accept the song of songs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">little gazelles. prancing in the light of stars...................</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a major long held objection in regard to canonization is that it doesnt involve doctrine but is judgement of a contingent matter. Doesnt mean it shouldnt be held de fide without very serious reasons. And then this is only the opinion of the Roman school. Let me be clear that I have no reason at all to doubt any canonization under the rules of Urban VIII but since their removal some Catholics (not just trads) have been troubled by particular canonizations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John-- what's the consensus view at this point? I'd find it a bit easier to be Catholic if I didn't have to believe in all canonizations de fide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T20:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrin-- what specifically do you propose TAC should add to the curriculum, so as to teach "dogmatic theology?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the old are very secure. I didnt have doubt til about a month ago. Its ok to hold a doubt imo. I have wavered a bit. I have 4 other reasons too. I have heard some would leave the church recently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4815" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Mike Potemra" data-date="2014-08-27T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Mike Potemra at 2014-08-27T20:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think, at this point, we need to move into the "historical-critical period" of this thread. I propose, therefore, that "Peregrine Bonaventure" was not an actual person, but a redactor's combination of three or four different sources that existed at the beginning of the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4816" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T20:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mike- Nice try. By definition, TACers don't know how to apply the historical-critical method.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4817" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T20:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i dont know the consensus. The majority view is, i believe, that they are infallible. But this position itself is not infallible. If u follow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4818" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T20:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine Bonaventure your serve...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T20:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John,I do, thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T20:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz probably knows if there are any authoritative pronouncements on the infallibility of canonizations. I've was taught that they are infallible but I don't know the justification for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4821" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Mike Potemra" data-date="2014-08-27T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Mike Potemra at 2014-08-27T20:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">heh, heh, Samantha! I went to the Catholic University of America in D.C., and we weren't taught anything BUT the historical-critical method. (And, oh yeah, social justice. Because Democrats LOL.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All canonization indicates, however, is that this person was an example of "heroic virtue". It doesn't imply anything about the appropriateness of imitating their particular actions or about the truth of their intellectual positions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4823" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T20:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is interesting, but hardly definitive: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm<br />CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Beatification and Canonization<br />www.newadvent.org<br />According to some writers the origin in the Catholic Church is to be traced back to the ancient pagan apotheosis<br />August 27 at 8:57pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />John Ruplinger definitions. definitions. What is heroic virtue? That is a problem these days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I'm thinking of cases where the canonizations didn't follow any particular display of evidence but were made for pretty clearly political reasons, Thomas Becket for instance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4825" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T21:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, there are lots of saints I don't like, so it's petty, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T21:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I don't think any amount of evidence can ever provide the degree of certitude required.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">miracles can be like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4828" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T21:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is, it seems to me that it is impossible in principle (excluding a universal revelation from God) to provide enough evidence to convince each person in the world that person X really is in heaven from that evidence alone. Consequently, there will always be a gap between the evidence the Church presents for a person's sanctity and the certitude implied by her judgment on the matter.<br />I think the evidence (miracles, etc.) relate to canonization the way dialectical arguments about principles relates to intellectus of them (if that analogy makes any sense).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok....mystery is part of this game. but so is free will. thanks for this thread. i needed a break.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, thanks for the link. And, Samantha, i would be cautious about your seemingly human objections. St. Neri was entirely opposed to Ignatius in life but both are in heaven now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4831" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-27T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-27T21:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, well, they aren't just *seemingly* human objections. Human objections are the only kind I make.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4832" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T21:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Miracles ARE the strongest evidence. When the definition of miracle changes . . . is problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-27T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-27T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a miracle defies reason. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4834" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T21:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's actually interesting that St. Thomas denies that a miracle violates the natural order, since the natural order of things is for all creatures to obey the will of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4835" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T21:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">As St. Augustine puts it, miracles violate the "manifest order of causes"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4836" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T21:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">one of my favorite saints is st. Philomena: no historical record, lots of miracles (Piur IX was personally healed.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4837" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T21:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The majority view is canonization is infallible, but with a strong minority dissent. Lots has been written on the matter recently. I don't follow the rationale of the majority view, and find the minority position convincing, personally. But as a Catholic one would still owe obsequium religiosum, so practically speaking there isn't all that much difference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T21:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">right and it is a matter of precept too which the linked article reminded me of. (That is a matter of obedience.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4839" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am so impressed by the intelligence and kindness of so many people on this thread. This is quite nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4840" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes I just sit back and read as the comments pop up. Lovely!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How droll, Edward Langley. Miracles, though reasonable, can only be believed in faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4842" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-27T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-27T21:31:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The comments are a roller coaster of intelligence and kindness and inanity and error, but the sheer quantity is what continues to amaze me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church's dogmatic theology is informed by revelation. It is wonderful to study under a trained theologian. TAC should avail students to this, if only as an intro, to help them at least see how faith and reason, metaphysics and faith work together academically. If TAC did this a bit better, truly you would conquer the world. But till then, something is stopping you.<br />Being stopped is not a good thing to be.<br />We can discuss more practical applications in a bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know what would be droll, Edward? If there were some way of figuring out, not the number of comments or quantity of words, but the physical length of The Thread. I realize, since it is Threadness itself, that such a question is silly. But maybe if it could be printed out on a roll of paper, we might be able to approximate its near-infinite nature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4845" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T21:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A roll of toilet paper?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No - toilet paper is too noble for the stomping grounds of the Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4847" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Toilet paper has a use. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In all seriousness, I was thinking a roll of teletype paper, like Kerouac's "On The Road."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On second thought, dogmatic theology might be a bit above you guys.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A wise man speaks because he has something to say, Bonaventure. A fool, because he has to say something. Do you feel better after that little piece of condescension?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes humor is necessary to keep spirits alive and to keep plowing through life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tis not condescension, but a bit of practical wisdom. Trust me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4853" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T21:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Along the same lines, Isak, I was just wondering how many hours a dramatic reading of this thread would be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many TACers does it take to change a light bulb?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4855" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">this would be a very short thread if composed by wise men, Isak. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4856" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T21:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though it might be better as an opera, then we could have multiple parts going at once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4857" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina - a dramatic reading would be magnificent. I propose we cast The Thread with actors of distinctive voice. I don't know about you guys, but I'm hearing Alan Rickman in my head as Peregrine Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't trust you as far as I could throw you, PB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmm, a good suggestion. trying to think of who for Beitia...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4860" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jack Nicholson as Michael Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Freshman theology should include an intro to dogmatic theology, because revelation is not just the Bible, but the Bible and tradition informing the Church's dogmatic theology. Then would be reading the Bible in context, as a formal unity, not just as a book. This would be the first fix.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Al Pacino as Josh Kenz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could never throw me Isak. But trust is not impossible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OUCH. and ouch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4865" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you just call yourself fat? Haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great. Any examples or explanations of what such an intro would be?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could throw me Isak, so trust me too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i was thinking, it has to be an American. Peterson should be Morgan Freeman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4869" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait - so I could never throw you, but I could also throw you? The man is a schizophrenic. Someone please get him some help!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T21:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see PB more as a Wallace Shawn type, Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(197, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, you could start with the Church's dogmatic theology on the Immaculate Conception. This is original source material. You could add this to when you read the Book of Revelation or the Wisdom Books. That would be very easy and good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's brilliant, Bonaventure. Someone give this man a cigar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i see nothing. Drawing a complete blank.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4874" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-27T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-27T21:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Matthew J. Peterson more as a Jeff Bridges character.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could add the dogmatic theology on faith and reason too, all original source, during the Wisdom books, or even during the Pentateuch. This would be great, fun and easy to do. There is an ongoing dialogue between the two traditions. Dogma supports and perfects it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But call me Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4878" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T22:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff Bridges! that is a good idea, but I really think someone should be Morgan Freeman...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4879" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're incredible, Peregrine. May I peel you a grape?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps Your Excellency requires a footstool? I would offer my own back, but it is too unworthy for Your Wisdom to rest his superior feet upon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jug jug.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Throw me Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-27T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-27T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading Scripture without Tradition and dogmatic theology is what Protestants and atheists do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4884" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Put on your fighting trousers, Scott.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iRTB-FTMdk<br />Fighting Trousers - Professor Elemental<br />you can now follow us on twitter Moog_Peculiana prof_elemental www.professorelemental.com The first singe from professor elemental's ep: the indifference eng...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't like your tweed, sir.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4886" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-27T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-27T22:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll settle for Sam Elliott playing the Big Lebowski/Thread narrator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4887" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-27T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-27T22:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Dear heavens this thread has looped around and we're back at the beginning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's wrong with reading the Bible as literature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no beginning, Bekah. The Threadness is without limit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4890" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-27T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-27T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Under 5,000 comments? Nope. I don't get up in the morning for less than 7k</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not even for the tantalizing smell of some good ol' home-cooked holistic sacred theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - the voice choices weren't insults. Those actors have amazing, distinctive voices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">bullshit on your Jack Nicholson....too tall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4894" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perescott: failure to make distinctions is what dumb people do</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4895" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">good to be back</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4896" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">unless it is "one flew over" Jack. I'll take that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4897" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T22:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sixteen more til 5000 let's break out the fireworks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was thinking One Flew Over, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4899" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah shucks, and I just inter-met you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4900" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Welcome home Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4901" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T22:41:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am disappointed...got back from work, and you are short of 5000....you lazy post padders</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although I think the tall factor would not matter for a radio drama, Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4903" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to hear whatever harebrained theory PB has about reading/not reading the Bible as a piece of magnificent literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4904" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T22:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So close! Be kind, children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kind? mmm.... nope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4906" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey Kenz.... talk to me when you crack the top five</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T22:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is everyone waiting to jump on 5000?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T22:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think so...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4909" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably.. I missed 4000 by one today so screw it, I'm not trying again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4910" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I must be cruel only to be kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you got it, Beetiea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is "I think so" worse than "at"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, it was you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha, congrats mr. beitia you are the winner</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4916" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do I get a pony? I've always wanted a pony</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-27T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-27T22:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I'm not trying again..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4918" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://1001bottlesofbeer.com/.../04/812-Haywards-5000.jpg<br />1001bottlesofbeer.com<br />1001bottlesofbeer.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T22:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, pretty sure it was you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-27T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-27T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">anyway, doesn't matter.... now that we've reached 5000 I can sleep comfortably.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">apparently so can everyone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4922" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T22:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you imagine freshmen reading about the immaculate Conception! We might as well jump to the Trinity! Also Freshmen theology comes from St Augustine's advice to familiarize once self with scripture before embarking deeper into theology. Also part of the point is teaching us sola scriptura doesn't work and we come out of freshmen year appreciating that we do need the teaching Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4923" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:55:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Commenting on this thread is starting to feel like fighting your way to the very front of a train that's hurtling towards a cliff. And infinity is over the edge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren - exactly. You are taking much more seriously than I that latest grand insanity from Pope Venturegrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4925" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren you're so right. I came to TAC as an atheist, who had read the Bible (as a reference) several times. It is an underlying, like counting is to arithmetic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4926" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T22:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I thought I would try. Listening to freshmen discuss scripture was hard enough... The immaculate conception would have been suicidal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T22:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What you said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4928" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T22:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and the funny thing is, one can have the truths of the faith presented to them, and still take it as a cultural reference: "the Catholics believe such and such" "for the Zen Buddhists, the ultimate goal is Nirvana" blah blah blah. Just because it is presented doesn't mean it requires any assent other than from a cultural-historical perspective</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4929" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Positions available: my new start up 12 stepper: TNET A</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4930" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T23:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I took John's method and I'm now free from TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4931" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T23:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">World Spirit Networking recommends TNET. And WE NEED DONATIONS.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4932" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T23:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This could always end up on twitter with #tnet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4933" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T23:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4934" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T23:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Either way, this thread reminds me of twitter back around 2009.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4935" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T23:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moses supposes his toes are roses, but Moses' gnosis is erroneous</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4936" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T23:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Btw, I've seen a single TACer screw in a light bulb on multiple occasions. Thanks work study!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4937" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">when michael returns, tell him i have a first 5 are free discount in the 8128 step program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael is here I think?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4939" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T23:10:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley. The Church has not definitively taught on the infallibility of canonizations. Benedict tried to underscore it by ceasing to do most beatifications, restoring the old way of having someone else doit. A beatification of course is either merely permissive for veneration, or only orders veneration for a particular Church, order, group, etc. It is because of the universality of canoization that an argument can be made. In condemning the Council of Pistoia, the Church required it to be held that in matters of universal discipline, the Church cannot impose anything on the faithful positively harmful. So while a better practice may exist, the UNIVERSAL discipline cannot be positively harmful.<br />Canonization is at least, in form, a universal discipline, even if, nowadays, not every saint is actually venerated by all the faithul (via Mass e.g.)<br />St. Thomas wrote on this (my translation)<br />The argument for the infallibility of canonization rests solely on it affecting the universal prayer of the Church. If the saints we pray to were actually in hell, the Church's worship is in vain.<br />Whether all saints which are canonized by the Church must be in glory, or may some of them be in Hell?<br />And it seems that some can be in Hell, of those who are canonized in the Church<br />For no one can be certain of the state of another, just as he himself of himself, since what belongs to a man, no one knows but the spirit of the man, which is in himself, as it says in I Cor. 2:11. But man cannot be certain of himself, whether he is in the state of salvation, for it is said in Eccl. 9:1, "No one knows, whether he be worthy of hate or love." Therefore, the Pope knows much less, therefore he can err in canonizing.<br />Furthermore, whoever in judging begins with a fallible means can err. But the Church in canonizing saints begins with human testimony, since she inquires through witnesses about the life and miracles. Therefore, since the testimony of men is fallible, it seems that the Church can err in canonizing the saints.<br />But against this, in the Church there cannot be a damnable error. But this would be a damnable error, if one were venerated as a saint who was a sinner, since some knowing his sins would believe this to be false, and it such were to happen, they could be led to error. Therefore the Church cannot err in such things.<br />Furthermore, Augustine says in a letter to Jerome, that if in the canonical Scripture some lying is admitted, our faith, which depends on the canonical Scripture, would be shaken. But just as we are held to believe that which is in the sacred Scripture, just so that which is commonly determined by the Church. Whence he is judged a heretic who opines against the determination of the Councils. Therefore, the common judgment of the Church cannot be erroneous, and thus the same as said above.<br />I respond that it must be said, that something can be judge possible considered according to itself, which related to something extrinsic, is found to be impossible. Therefore, I say that the judgment of those who preside in the Church can err in whatever matter, if in respect to their persons only. But if divine providence is considered, which directs His Church by the Holy Spirit that it may not err, just as He promised in John 9, "that the coming Spirit shall teach every truth," namely in things necessary for salvation, it is certain that it is impossible for the judgment of the universal Church to err in those things which pertain to faith. Whence, the statements, pronounced in judgment by the pope to whom it pertains to make determinations about the faith, are to stand more than the opinions about Scripture of any of the wise whatsoever. Since it is read that Caiphas, although he was unworthy, since since he was pontiff, also prophesied unknowingly, John 11:51. But in other statement which pertain to particular facts, as when it treats of possessions or crimes or others of this sort, it is possible for the judgment of the Church to err because of false witnesses.<br />But the canonization of the saints is a mean between these two. Since, nevertheless, the honor which we exhibit to the saints, is a certain profession of the faith, by which we believe in the glory of the saints, it must be piously believed that the Church is also unable to err in this.<br />To the first, therefore, it must be said that the Pontiff, to whom it belongs to canonize saints, can be made certain of the state of another through the inquisition of life and the attestation of miracles, and precisely through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, who examines all things, even the profound things of God.<br />To the second it must be said, that divine providence preserves the Church lest in such things it is deceived by the fallible testimony of men<br />Quodlibet IX, q. 8 ad 2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sooo.... In dumb man's terms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4941" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T23:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ie tl;dr</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4942" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T23:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some of the Church can err in its discipline, even worship. The whole Church cannot. Beatiication is "some of the Church," canoniztion is all of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-27T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-27T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that's what I thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4944" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T23:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^nice recovery^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4945" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-27T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-27T23:20:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">It looks to me that what it comes down to is that there is a widely held theological opinion that canonization is an exercise of infallibility, but no definitive statement to that effect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4946" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T23:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quite. And as far as I can see, there is not likely to be one!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The CE article Edward linked is more comprehensive bvt STA gives the best reason for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4948" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-27T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-27T23:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way John Ruplinger, this is a long time coming - sorry I was so belligerent back in the 600s of this thread. I do believe I misunderstood your jokes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4949" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">that was another era. Lots of misunderstanding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4950" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I took nothing personal and its hard to see people's intent or expression behind a screen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4951" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T23:33:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's what ALL CAPS ARE FOR! ANGRY TYPING! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am also belligerent and rash. Hard to know how it appears.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4953" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T23:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sooooooo, any thoughts on Descartes's ontological argument? What do y'all remember about it from junior year? (I'm outsourcing lecture prep due to getting home late)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OR TO BE SEEN over the mellifluous lalagations of pb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4955" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-27T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-27T23:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many people on this thread are teachers...?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">me sometimes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T23:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boyer obviously is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-27T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-27T23:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, claim a teaching job on tax documents. You know what i mean!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did know what you meant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4962" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-27T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-27T23:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman is a grad student. Don't know if he teaches any classes...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-27T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-27T23:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not me, anymore, thank God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BACK to the canonization question, my objection derives from the same principle as Aquinas. It is serious matter. I wish it were not so. But the Faith itself is at stake. I leave it at that and say only I am certain of the Church's indefectability.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4965" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-27T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-27T23:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can imagine an argument for non-infallible canonization which wouldn't compromise the principle of indefectibility or anything else essential to RC belief</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4966" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-27T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-27T23:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Escalante I have seen such arguments too. But they are hard to reconcile with the, albeit hard to state the authority of, condemnation of Pistoia (the Church has a habit of list 100 propositions, and then say they are all heretic, savoring of heresy, favorable to sectarianism and/or offensive to pious ears, without saying which is which)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-27T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-27T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what proposition is condemned? . . . Forget it. I just took in your whole statement, but i think i will revert to my much safer opinion. So thanks, Joshua and Edward. (I have a narrower argument that doesn't affect infallibility of canonization. Maybe i will pm you.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4968" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T00:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm getting paid to teach too, Megan...hahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just taught sophomores about Raymond and Bohemond of the 1st Crusade today! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_4970" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T00:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if tac taught the "fullness of the magisterium of the church" this wouldn't be a question right now, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T00:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^This man knows what's up.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4972" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T00:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I need an app just for this silly thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4973" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T00:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boyer, don't worry....the Thread has an app for you already</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4974" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T00:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only lived next to Beitia and with the other carlin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4975" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T00:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread has already carved your tombstone, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a teacher, Megan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Yankees win!!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4978" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(That was the sports, now back to you, Bob.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4979" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"To al newe professirs and teacheres about to teache: Ye are awesome. An invisible & beneficent unicorn shal protect yow on yower first daye." —@LeVostreGC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-28T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-28T00:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a teacher in at least one sense of the word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^sorites?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4982" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T00:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But do not despair, John - for it has also built your cradle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4983" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T00:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But did it nurse him?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-28T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-28T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Back to Peregrine's statement: "Reading Scripture without Tradition and dogmatic theology is what Protestants and atheists do."<br />What say you? I don't see this being answered. <br />I don't agree with Scott. I think a fair reading of the text is permissible by Catholics without being somehow framed by doctrine first. Can't it be read first at face value?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4985" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T00:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because that is a disturbing image</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4986" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">A propos of nothing, did you all know that today is Hegel's birthday? Born August 27th, 1770.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4987" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A ghost is haunting this thread ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As usual with Peregrine, he has some interesting things to say mixed in with balderdash. I do not entirely disagree with that statement, insofar as it is quite true that the Protestant approach to Holy Scripture is "Sola," as it were, while the Catholic approach is guided by Church tradition.<br />That does not therefore mean that to read the Bible, say, for example, as literature, (or any other non-magisterial way) is to be a Protestant or atheist. I think there is much fruit in sometimes reading it the way one might read, say, The Iliad. As long as one does not do so exclusively. Does that make sense, Jody? I'm sort of thinking as I go here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T00:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel - WHOA. I feel suddenly weird.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4990" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T00:53:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find the "There's no personal God in Aristotle" cliché tiresome. What to be people really mean by that? If what they mean is that Aristotle did not have a concept of the person then it's just obvious. But notice that they never say "Aristotle does not think that human beings are persons," which is just as obvious is that sense. But if they mean that Aristotle denies something essential to the person of God, then it's demonstrably false, as the opposite is true.<br />I don't find it surprising that Matthew J. Peterson takes up this vacuous cliché, since it gives him ammunition for his war on "TAC's idea of an anhistorial Aristotlethomas," but I'm slightly surprised that you take up the cliché Samantha since Caleb is so good at exploding similarly vacuous clichés about Aristotle's teaching on the soul.<br />FWIW Frederick Copleston gives exactly the same argument as Big Angry Daniel and Edward Langley above:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T00:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't the question of a personal god in Aristotle a question that only arose later, in Neoplatonism and then with the Arabs? It was fundamentally a question of what sort of CAUSES his god knows. THAT he knows is manifest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe Matthew affirmed what Daniel and Edward said, later. I should say conceded.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4993" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, Pater, as I see it there are two ways to approach the question: historically by asking "did Aristotle think God is a person" and philosophically "did Aristotle attribute to God the characteristics of a person".<br />Historically the question is trivial, since the philosophical/theological notion of "person" arose with the attempts to model the Trinity.<br />Philosophically, the question is "is the definition of person, 'individua substantia rationalis naturae' applicable to the God Aristotle describes. I think it is and it is trivial to show this: rational here just means "having an intellect". Aristotle's God has an intellect and is a substance. Q.E.D.<br />What's more difficult (and impossible) is for Aristotle to determine how many individual substances God is. But even there, Aristotle has some hint of the truth: doesn't St. Thomas quote Aristotle's De Caelo as having some threeness.<br />Obviously all the implications of being a person aren't explicit in Aristotle, but that's immaterial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4994" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, LONG LIVE ARISTOTHOMAS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4995" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is it Aquinotle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is all backwards. The question of person-hood in God or gods (historically) has nothing to do with the Trinity. It's a question about God's relation to people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, e.g., we assert God's personhood as the God of Abraham.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The God who spoke to Moses from the bush.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_4999" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-28T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-28T01:07:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">God definitely thought Aristotle was a person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-28T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-28T01:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Edward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle's god doesn't do this sort of thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a different sense of "personal"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I was going to note that, but thought my intention was obvious)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it's not. You and Copleston are treating this in far to pat a manner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I alluded to above, the question is about what sort of causes god understands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I've heard a passage in the Eudemian Ethics cited where Aristotle claims that when an ignorant man performs a virtuous action, he was inspired by the first cause. But I've never been able to find such a passage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does god understand universal causes only? If so, then he / she is in no sense a personal god.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5008" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I took Daniel Lendman's claim to be "Aristotle knew that God is a person but not that God was three persons". Matthew J. Peterson asked for evidence and several of us responded in various ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If, however, god understands e.g., what makes me want to go to Burger King at 1 am, then god is a personal god.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the question of God's knowledge, I say read Thomas DeKoninck's article in the Review of Metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You should engage with the claim I'm making, and not tell me to go read an article I've long ago read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is very much a problem of Neoplatonic philosophy and Arabic philosophy, the two parts of philosophical history that TAC casts a blind eye upon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">personal is from person: an individual intellectual substance [ that can be personable or standoffish]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5014" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm saying that you're argument is incidental to the sense we're using "personal" here.<br />I grant that it's hard to determine what Aristotle thinks God knows and thus it's hard to determine if Aristotle's God is a "personal" God in the sense you're using, but I reiterate, no one besides you is thinking of "personal" in that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want to insist that "personal" doesn't bear these two senses, I'm not sure how to proceed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5016" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T01:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"And in this corner..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5017" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was avoiding saying that "Aristotle knew that God is a person" because that could imply that Aristotle knew that God is _one_ person, which would be false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But isn't Copleston just blowing smoke ... ? Secudum rem ... ? That doesn't persuade me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5019" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Coppleston is saying that "God is (one or more) individual substances having a rational nature"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5020" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, rereading, I won't defend Coppleston: (a) because I don't like his style and (b) because I'm not sure I have enough context to judge his claims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God's nature is beyond reason ... all three of the monotheistic traditions affirm this. ... anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that it's too pat to simply assert Boethius' definition of personhood and then look back to Aristotle and say his god (a thinking of thinking!) was a person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5023" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine Gardner, just noticed what the intent of your comment was. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5024" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The implication you're drawing, Daniel, sounds like it would rule out anything besides negative theology. As a Thomist and a Catholic, I'd disagree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would claim that it's Augustinus (and probably earlier fathers) who claim personhood (i.e.: knowledge of all causes, universal and particular) for God. I'll stick with Augustine, as he's the one I know best: it's in his refutation of Cicero's argument against divine foreknowledge in City of God that he claims God knows all causes (necessary and free, particular and universal).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you think of the Dionysian superessential predication?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(or whatever it's called)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5028" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T01:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just realized James Layne hasn't been made one with the Thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5029" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Also, Rye and typing don't mix verry weelll_</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5030" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're a rye man ... see, I can trust you ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5031" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T01:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is my thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine.<br />My thread is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.<br />My thread, without me, is useless. Without my thread, I am useless. I must fire my thread true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...<br />My thread and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...<br />My thread is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my thread clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...<br />Before God, I swear this creed. My thread and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.<br />So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5032" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle seems to think that God doesn't know particulars directly, but a lot would depend on what God's relation to the gods is, since they do (vide Bodeus); and if the gods are somehow God, then He does in a way know particulars</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T01:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it doesn't translate perfectly but it's pretty good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but there's a lot of equivocation going on here, and Daniel can get crankypants about this topic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5035" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although if Aristotelian philosophy implies that God is infinitely perfect, then he would be a principle of knowing all creatures and thus, in his self-knowledge, he would know all creatures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5036" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">God of course directly sees Dan's crankypantsness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and I realise that today's scholarship would deny infinite perfection of Aristotle's God)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But they seem to be largely caught up in words.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5039" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, there are several steps missing there, and that's a somewhat Thomistified reading of Aristotle. In case Pater Edmund is right, Aristotle's God is most definitely Mind and "substance", and thus "personal" in the philosophic sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5040" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T01:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I realize that, but I happen to think that Thomas gets Aristotle right 99% of the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">With friends like JA! ... not to dodge the question on Dionysius, but at bottom I'm more interested in an ethnological (and at the same time religious) concept of personhood. It's realized by Abraham in God's promise of Isaac (and subsequent command for sacrifice and salvation), it's realized by the Apostles in the Transfiguration or, at the very latest, at Pentecost, and it's realized by Muhammad in the revelation of the Qur'an by the angel Gabriel. Prescinding from the question of the truth or falsity of those experiences for a moment, THAT is a PERSONAL God (in the thick sense!).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5042" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T01:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel P. O'Connell your PERSONAL is way too THICK. You write "personhood (i.e.: knowledge of all causes, universal and particular)" according that definition I am not a person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. You mistake my meaning Pater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm applying that to God's knowledge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For God to be personal in this sense, he has to have chosen you, knit you together in your mother's womb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5046" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T01:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just trolling you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5047" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">to be fair Dan is just saying that is what *divine* personhood would entail given what person is in the stipulated sense, and what God is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5048" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is John Brungardt in all this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, you got me!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5050" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe JA is right ... I am getting a bit crankypants, which sounds like something Nina Gapinski would say ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5051" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but Dan the question of revelation isn't that simple a criterion. The Greeks had oracles, and those oracles were of the gods, and if the gods are somehow God (emanations, whatever), then its mediated revelation, but still somehow God talking to men; a lot like the Vodoun distinction between the lwa (who talk to us) and Bondye (who doesn't directly), but the lwa *are* Bondye in refraction; I think Aristotle thinks something like this, more or less</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5052" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="James Layne" data-date="2014-08-28T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Layne at 2014-08-28T01:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm viewing on my phone and something must be wrong here! I keep clicking "view previous comments," but there is no end (or maybe it's malfunctioning). What the hell happened? This will make good reading tomorrow. Thanks for notifying me, Joshua Kenz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure ... in this case, however, what are we to make of the rather strong anti-personal nature of Plato's gods? As Plato tells it, at least, through Socrates, when the gods are like Zeus and Hera, this just leads us into absurdities. The poets lie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5054" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(although I like your Vodoun analogy)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plato's gods act by the necessity of nature, despite what Timaeus says.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dan unlike you I am not a member of the Neoplatonic religion, and thus I have no magisterial doctrine of Aristotelian-Platonic harmonia binding upon me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_5058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think if the world is eternal (which is at least the supposition in Physics VIII), then you need a first mover (a thinking of thinking) who never changes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T01:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">could the gods be bad? Homer seems to show them so ( except maybe Poseiden)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5060" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess you could have lower, planetary intelligences who are "personal" in some sense. Interacting with us in some way ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">knowing particulars does not necessitate or imply change, btw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True. As Augustine shows in his City of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5063" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T01:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hold on....are you implying if the world is not eternal, you can have a first mover that changes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5064" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T01:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What did St Augustine think about the gods?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5065" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">get 'im, Joshua!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LOL.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You COULD ... but you need not. The world's eternality requires a god who never changes, but a world which begins in time (it seems to me) could have a changeable or an unchangeable source.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T01:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T01:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who exorcized the Pythian oracle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, Thomas' God or Lucretius' "swerve" ... both are consistent with a world that begins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maimonides would back me up here I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What?!!! Are you saying that, as far as the evidence the world gives, God could be changeable? Or that it could have a source other than God?<br />It seems to me that while there is a particular argument based on a supposed eternity of the world (cf the "5 Ways" in the Summa contra gentiles, particularly the second), every argument for God ends with his unchangeability</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5073" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T01:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(by ends I means leads to, not as if it is the final end of reasoning). Changeable things need an unchangeable source, all the more so if the world is not eternal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T01:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What did Croesus' test of all the famous oracles show about their knowledge?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Lucretius' swerve is not the origin of the universe, even in Lucretiu</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why? I mean, I don't want to get into defending Lucretius here ... I never much cared for his poetry, but doesn't his changeable world have a changeable (i.e., random, chance-based) source?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The swerve is not the source of the world. It is the source of things not determined (free will e.g.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I was more thinking about the truth of the matter, not a listing of what some pagan thought. Not has someone claimed, but I asked youwhat youclaim about the actual evidence</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5079" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This world as we know it would not have come into existence were it not for the swerve of atoms in the void.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't agree with Lucretius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5082" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is the book I was referring to earlier, for any interested:<br />http://www.sunypress.edu/p-3247-aristotle-and-the...<br />Aristotle and the Theology of the Living Immortals<br />www.sunypress.edu<br />Aristotle and the Theology of the Living Immortals</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess all I would care to defend at this point is the possibility of a non-eternal world with a changeable first cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5084" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but a changeable first cause is an absurdity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that might even need the definite article- *the* absurdity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know ... what about an anthropomorphic deity who decides not to create a world ... then later he changes his mind and creates one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5087" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but that's fairytale, not metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5088" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">in literature, sure, the world can be created by a mutant ninja turtle; but in reality, the world has to have an unchanging first cause</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5089" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay. That I all I was getting at. Note that many people who talk a lot about a "personal God" end up denying His immutability (open theism eg).<br />Now the only problem is, since you hold an immutable God (right) you are claiming that one cannot clearly see the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, and understand by the things that are made; His eternal power also, and divinity.<br />Again we are not interested in what someone might hypothesize, but in what the truth is. God is immutable. If the world does not require an unchanging first cause, in se, then we do not get to God through reason, at least not on those grounds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would Nietzsche say about fairytale and metaphysics? ... but more to the point, I think I see what you are saying. If there is to be a first cause (which there need not be), then the first cause must be unchanging.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5091" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(60, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, my point is that if you investigate the ancient texts, they seem unanimous that the gods were bad or fake. Wherefore in his commentary on Romans, Chrysostum criticizes Socrates for sacrificing to a god he knew was false . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5092" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there needs be a first cause, or do you think such is just an hypothesis (as far as reason goes), not knowable by reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5093" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't aware open theism was a synonym for theistic personalism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Aristotle shows very clearly in his Physics that, for a world whose existence is infinite (or at least not bounded) in its duration, then a first mover is necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Augustine points out the frauds of the pagan theologians and priests in the City of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The common assumption is that Aristotle takes the more difficult case, in choosing the eternal world, right? Because if it's finite, it's (supposedly) much easier to prove...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, but that does not mean that if the world is not eternal, a first mover is not necessary.....quite the opposite. The main argument gathered from the Physics amounts to the 1st way, which is all about the hic et nunc of motion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also he takes that because it's what is presupposed by the pre-socratics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also eternity isn't until bk 8. Bk 7 gives first mover.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't want to seem cagey here. I think there is an eternal immutable source of everything that exists. But the question is whether there needs to be a first mover ... more to the point, whether we can know this with certitude. I think we can, but I'm not so sure the 1st way in the Summa Th. does the trick.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well you can always take 2-5. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_5104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what's the faulty premise? Or is the argument not valid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5105" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The newest graph</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5107" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Comments, vertical axis; time in seconds, horizontal axis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't want to drag in another figure here, but by comparison to Scotus' argument, what is missing is a full proof that there cannot be an infinite regress of causes as well as the unicity of the first mover (i.e., that there is only one of them).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5109" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure Thomas knew this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Summa is a compendium, right? So he's giving us the shortest versions of these 5 ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does he need to show only one god?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fact that there is only one comes up in Q. 11</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All you need is A god.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5115" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's Ockham's contention: he claims that unless one can show that there is only one universe, you can't demonstrate the Christian God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5116" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose I'll learn all about Scotus this semester in Tim Noone's Scotus class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim Noone is amazingly awesome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, he's like a walking encyclopedia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5119" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you're going to learn Scotus, what better person to learn from than a Scotist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5120" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I like forthright responses, otherwise my sniffers go up... <br />I think it seems weird to say there is a first mover, but that it is an open question whether there needs to be...I think that is to ignore what a first mover is. That is like saying this power cord is in a battery, thus powering the light, but need not be in order to power the light. It both receives its motion from the battery and does not need the battery for that motion at the same time. If it already possesses what it gives, there isn't is a prior cause to it. If it does not, there must be. If there is a first cause, there must be a first cause. That amounts to little more than a tautology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5121" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I kinda would like to see Socrates take Tim Noone on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5122" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, at least the last few hundred comments were quite interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This was a hundred? Dang.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5124" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Time flies when you're having fun (i.e., contemplating basic truths).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5125" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yarp!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where are the standings now, Edward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5127" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still want to re-visit this 'person' question regarding Aristotle's god ... I think JA opened up some interesting avenues regarding Greek pagan thought about god / gods.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5128" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For now I'm off to bed as it's nearly 2:30 here. Carry on, ye west coasters / Euro-people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Joshua: My short answer for now is that it's all about the assertion that there can't be an infinite regress. But I think Scotus solves it (and probably Thomas in the Sentences, but I'm not sure).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5130" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Top Ten:<br />722 Peregrine Bonaventure<br />631 Michael Beitia<br />395 John Ruplinger<br />341 Edward Langley<br />327 JA Escalante<br />319 Daniel Lendman<br />216 Catherine Ryland<br />197 Isak Benedict<br />187 Matthew J. Peterson<br />142 Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5131" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas gives three arguments for that in the Summa Contra gentiles</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5132" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have advanced beyond JA Escalante, Isak Benedict has moved up two places.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5133" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB remains the Unmoved Mover</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5134" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />122 Sam Rocha<br />116 Joel HF<br />107 Lauren Ogrodnick<br />107 Jody Haaf Garneau<br />96 Nina Rachele<br />86 Marina Shea<br />82 Daniel P. O'Connell<br />68 Philip D. Knuffke<br />60 John Boyer<br />55 Frank Morris<br />52 Megan Caughron</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5135" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer is the promising newcomer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5136" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I think a day job precludes breaking the top 20, but who knows...tomorrow I am off. Post padding like it ain't never been done 'fore</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5137" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren Ogrodnick and Joel HF have moved upwards</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arg contra infinite regress is taken from other places. Taken for granted. I'm guessing theo students would be familiar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5139" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most of my comments are idle words. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philip D. Knuffke is falling behind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5141" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that was all in one day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5142" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or I could be productive and do one of a dozen things I have put off</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5143" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />47 Joshua Kenz<br />46 Samantha Cohoe<br />45 Sean Robertson<br />39 Jason Van Boom<br />37 Tim Cantu<br />36 Tom Sundaram<br />36 Max Summe<br />33 Aaron Dunkel<br />26 John Kunz<br />24 Katie Duda</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5144" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, I used to be in the top 5. I am slipping.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />23 Megan Baird<br />20 Clayton Brockman<br />19 Joe Zepeda<br />17 Emily Norppa<br />16 Liam Collins<br />15 John Herreid<br />15 Claire Keeler<br />14 Erik Bootsma<br />14 Aaron Gigliotti<br />13 Kevin Gallagher</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />12 Dominique Martin<br />10 Bekah Sims<br />10 Adrw Lng</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5147" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now that I've finished watching a movie with the wife and eating dessert, I can finally do lecture prep. Until I check Facebook...I mean TNET again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5148" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, just for good measure, the graph again:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5149" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are approximately 191,817 words in the thread (as of 2:00am EST)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5150" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Averaging 5 letters per word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5151" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is becoming a self-referential mess. A smorgasbord of ideas. A veritable cornucopia of sentences vying for attention.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5152" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you ad up the totals from those not on the top 20-down, we still don't equal PB (582 give a few)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5153" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And so we jockey on, hurtling towards the future, the past receding behind us like clouds of dust, becoming ever harder to discern, ever more arduous to chronicle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5154" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The wind in the willow's playin' "Tea for Two";<br />The sky was yellow and the sun was blue,<br />Strangers stoppin' strangers just to shake their hand,<br />Everybody's playing in the heart of gold band, heart of gold band.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5155" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">readability grades:<br />Kincaid: 7.4<br />ARI: 7.3<br />Coleman-Liau: 7.7<br />Flesch Index: 72.1/100<br />Fog Index: 10.6<br />Lix: 35.8 = school year 5<br />SMOG-Grading: 10.0<br />sentence info:<br />797142 characters<br />185856 words, average length 4.29 characters = 1.39 syllables<br />10953 sentences, average length 17.0 words<br />48% (5293) short sentences (at most 12 words)<br />18% (1985) long sentences (at least 27 words)<br />809 paragraphs, average length 13.5 sentences<br />11% (1293) questions<br />42% (4615) passive sentences<br />longest sent 138 wds at sent 5665; shortest sent 1 wds at sent 3<br />word usage:<br />verb types:<br />to be (6249) auxiliary (2188) <br />types as % of total:<br />conjunctions 4% (7561) pronouns 9% (16004) prepositions 13% (24057)<br />nominalizations 1% (2544)<br />sentence beginnings:<br />pronoun (2055) interrogative pronoun (197) article (391)<br />subordinating conjunction (218) conjunction (540) preposition (1071)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5156" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You need to be more copacetic Edward Langley. Too much analysis will drive you mad.<br />Well, I ain't always right but I've never been wrong.<br />Seldom turns out the way it does in a song.<br />Once in a while you get shown the light<br />In the strangest of places if you look at it right.<br />Maybe I need to lay off the absynthe....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah...about that Joshua, we've all been meaning to talk to you about your problem with...err, I mean love of absinthe. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5158" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Kunz wrote the longest comment (#470) weighing in at 900 words. In it he solved all of Peregrine's objections, as has happened frequently since then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5159" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Liam Collins, if I told you my method of compiling these statistics, I'd have to kill you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5160" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">G'night Y'all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5161" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait Joshua Kenz doesn't have the longest post? Shocked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">G'night</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5163" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh oh. I feel the overwhelming need to interject again, despite my undergraduate degree having a different college's name. Also, because my internet was down for over an hour, I feel like I'm beating some long-dead horse...<br />Anyway, Aristotle's God would not be personal in Thomas' sense, inasmuch as Thomas applies to God the name "person" because the Divine is engaged in real relations (Ia, 29.4), which is the proper signification of the term (according to Mr. Common Dr., anyway). At most, being a final cause (let's not get into the issue of whether or not Aristotle's God is a first efficient cause...) and accepting the notion that thought thinking itself precludes consideration of its causality on others as something essentially extrinsic, Aristotle's deity is "in" mixed relations only, being itself in no way affected by the relatedness of others.<br />To extrapolate a bit, human beings are capable of engaging in real personal relationship with God only through the humanity hypostatically united to the Divine in the person of Christ.<br />Now I'll just go back to pretending to work on my dissertation and hope this starts PB on another tangent about heresy.<br />*edit: wrong citation. 29.4, not 28.4</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey Brian, enough with the humility topos!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5165" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:39:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">(the order of the top ten comments, from longest to shortest is: John Kunz, Daniel Lendman, Joshua Kenz, John Ruplinger, John Ruplinger, Peregrine Bonaventure, Joshua Kenz, Pater Edmund, John Ruplinger, Joshua Kenz)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5166" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-28T03:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-28T03:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I already warned you all a few times, here I go, but just for today (I promise). Some Augustinian soul music for the Feast of St. Augustine: http://samueldrocha.wix.com/late-to-love<br />late-to-love<br />samueldrocha.wix.com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5167" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T03:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T03:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Brian, I don't think your argument works, but lack time.<br />In brief, I think you confuse the argument for what in God corresponds to the name person with the argument for whether God is personal.<br />In question 29, Aquinas splits those two questions: article three shows that the name person applies to God using roughly the argument I've laid out above. Article 4 shows that person signifies relation in God.<br />I don't see anything in 29.3 that Aristotle wouldn't assent to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5168" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-08-28T03:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-08-28T03:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see plenty in 29.4 (which I had meant to cite above), though, that Aristotle wouldn't assent to. Like the last line of the corpus and ad.3. It's not just that "person signifies relation in God", but that "person" properly signifies relation (secundum dici, that is, and real relations at that [28.1]).<br />But since it's almost 3 am, I'll concede that I might be talking out of the wrong orifice here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T03:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T03:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would 29.3 ad 4 be what Aristotle signifies in Meta Bk. 12? "Substance" can be applied to God in the sense of signifying self-subsistence." I feel that's stretching it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5170" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T03:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T03:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley can you use your computer voodoo to give us some stats on the authors cited by St Thomas (both in the Summa and more generally). There's a ranking somewhere of the citations in the IIa Pars, but I haven't been able to find one of the whole summa, or of the complete works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5171" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-28T04:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-28T04:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has this thread really been sleeping for two hours?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5172" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T05:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T05:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can try to think of another innocuous example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5173" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T05:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T05:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, this is the kind of wild speculation Perebonburg has been warning us about. Really? Did Aristotle believe in a personal god? Flying waaaay too high there, guys. <br />John: the only parts about the pagans I remember from City of God is the chapter(s) on Priapus. Of course, they skip those parts at TAC, but hilarious nonetheless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5174" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And to reply to what Joshua Kenz wrote earlier, trust me, having a day job does *not* preclude breaking the top twenty, provided you're willing to blow off your job.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lot of confusion about the gods. Reading Acts and St Paul's exorcism and the need for interpretation as well as remembering one oracle in Herodotus that confessed it was deliberately deceiving and other things convinced me they were frauds or devils. Plutarch was a pagan priert (Apollo?) who noted the oracles stopped sometime after Christ. . . anyways i was always interested in them. By Themistacles clever interrpretation he saved Greece at Salamis a lot like Odysses in bk 2 interpreting the sign to his own ends (Iliad). . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose there are 3 options with oracles/priests<br />1: they are insane (mantis/manic?)<br />2: they are deceiving for their own ends (glory/offerings)<br />3: they communicate with the divine/diabolical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as to the gods, they are all called devils in the Bible and both Augustine and Chrystotum are good authorities and convincing. IMO most the ancient wise thought them devils or frauds too. But that is a looong argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb. Its a combo of the 3.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably depends on the circumstances. Isn't there a fairly Christological prophesy given by the sibyl in Virgil's Georgiacs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5180" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was reading an article some years back that claimed that the cave of the sibyl had toxic volcanic fumes in it, so that's why the prophesies came out of there, oxygen deprivation or some such thing. But the modern world rejects option 3 wholesale</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the "genuine" oracle was clearly possessed herself viz. Delphi and Pythia (or are those 2 the same. I forget. I think are tap water comes from Lethe.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5182" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was Pythia I was reading about, that is in Italy, if I'm not mistaken, whereas Delphi is in (or around) Greece. Were's JAson when you need him. I'm sure he'd know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Sybil does complicate things. And God can make devils speak the truth too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, the devils don't have faith. They know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund-- My comments on personhood in Aristotle were not endorsed by my husband, and do not necessarily reflect his views. He wasn't home at the time (or I would not have been on the Thread). But, disclaimers aside, I consulted with him when he got home, and he agreed that to refer to Aristotle's God as "willing" is well outside what we have of his thought. He did say, though, that he wouldn't object too much to someone using Boethius' definition of "person" to refer to Aristotle's God. So. I suppose I partly recant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HOWEVER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is clearly gnostic and inspired by Christian tradition:<br />http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib03.htm<br />Book I.<br />www.sacred-texts.com<br />Announcement, 1-5. Creation of the earth and man, 6-47. First sin and penalty, 4...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5188" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, don't you mean "sed contra"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5189" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The reason I would say Aristotle's god isn't personal and not say that about Aristotle's views of humans is precisely because I deny that Aristotle views God as personal in the way that humans are obviously personal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, SED CONTRA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5191" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">And overall, I quite sympathize with Matthew J. Peterson's crusade (if there is one) against the a-historical Aristothomas taught at TAC, if for no other reason than that it is quite embarrassing to go off to grad school and mistake a view of THomas' for a view of Aristotle, get called on it, then spend the rest of class rooting around in the text before you realize your mistake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T06:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T06:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but they only see what God allows. They are also blind. I Iove Croesus' test (herodotus) which discovered only 2 "true" oracles but they only knew the present in that test.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's interesting to inquire into the examples of oracles. They require layers of interpretation beginning with the priests interpreting the ravings of a possessed woman. . . . . I could make modern comparison but may offend pious ears.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">suffice that they are wrapped in ambiguity. And so often couldnt be disproved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't take back anything I said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Odysseus' interpretation of the snake eating the birds is too clever. Its real significance is nearly opposite imo (but that i take as the poet's own invention).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5197" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's sort of the catch when reading philosophy, one has to distinguish between what the author is saying, what commentators are saying, and what is true. It is the movement between those three that seems to cause a lot of confusion, if not explicitly stated.<br />for example:<br />1 Aristotle does not state "personal god" <br />2 St. Thomas says you can know it<br />3 God is personal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i thought you conceded that no one spoke falsely, matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">generally i skip the commentators. It removes a whole layer of confusion (unless they be time tested) </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5200" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">granted, but a lot of classes and a lot of people use intermediate sources, and unless it is specifically claimed, there can be a lot of confusion. Someone above, for example, cited Copleston.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and for the record, I don't remember what Croesus' test was....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5202" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i was really screwed up by the intermediates for a while. I now adhere to the mega biblion kakon biblion principle. If its more than 50 pages, spend the time reading primary texts or posting on TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, who is Copleston, anyway? I do not recognize him as an authority I must submit to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't either. He wrote a "history of philosophy"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I think that's one of the things that TAC does right, excepting the Thomas/Aristotle issue. <br />Samantha, do they still read Lenin on motion? That was an absolute waste</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or did they when you were there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5207" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What, in Lab? Doesn't sound familiar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it was philosophy..... talk about a straw man...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm having flashbacks of Berquist.... I think Sophomore philosophy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going to say no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5212" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still waiting for a refutation of anything I said or claimed.<br />Or any of the evidence I asked for.<br />But, to at least prevent more assumptions about what I think: I think there is interesting evidence in Aristotle's "other" Ethics and elsewhere (Cicero's quote from one of his dialogues) as to what Aristotle thought about God that tends towards what TACers want to say.<br />And it is true, as Pater Edmund says, that many who say "Aristotle's God wasn't a personal God" then proceed to make tiresome points. But the point itself isn't tiresome at all. It's rather obvious.<br />And yes, feeding the Thomistotle is a dangerous and ignorant thing to do, and it can be philosophically and theologically harmful, and most graduates are relatively clueless about why this is problematic.<br />In the scholarship, the other side usually goes too far (Harry Jaffa trying to separate Aristotle's Ethics from St. Thomas, for instance, in "Thomism and Aristotelianism", a fine book for TAC grads to read). <br />Now, I usually oppose that side in terms of scholarship insofar as Aristotle seems more open and less contradictory to the Faith than they let on.<br />But Ron M. liked that book and had Jaffa come to TAC for a reason. <br />Most TACers need to think more carefully about what Aristotle did and didn't say. I find most grads do not even think about this issue.<br />TAC grads will tend to think that Aristotle knew God as personal and proved natural law (which he talks about once, in the Rhetoric), etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5213" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(206, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't forget the special gnosis, Matt. oh, and good morning and welcome to the TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5214" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Croesus, in brief: sent messengers to all famous ancient oracles to inquire on a certain day at a set time, " what is Croesus secretly cooking right now?" it was an impotable bastardization of turtle stew btw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and stop being so confrontational..... hubris of TAC grads....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only recanted of my vociferous tone. Very partial recanting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In short, they will say laughable things to serious scholars of Aristotle. They may be onto something but they would be destroyed by most serious scholars on the issue without being far more knowledgeable and careful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At what point do you determine "serious scholar"? More than the cursory glance at TAC, obviously. <br />At what point is one capable of speaking intelligently?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5219" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">age 83 imo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry that you took offense to my words.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean a professional/this is what I do sort of person.<br />I have no intrinsic respect for scholarship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">eg. I really didnt get the whole pantiestiedinknots contest above . . . . well actually i do suspect the underlying contraversy but that too really is much ado about nothing (if i guess right). The truth is more important than having this or that philosopher in one's corner. I love aristotle bc he has so well thought out things from every side. Aquinas is so clear (and straight foward). From both one can learn much but their methods are different. And i have so often been wrong about aristotle. He is a clever chap [TO MB]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5223" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">In general, Matthew J. Peterson, I think would helpful on many levels if TAC grads, on the whole, paid attention to what we actually learned, and what we didn't. I realize that is rather vague and obscure, but let me explain: <br />(Gratuitous comment numbers padding pause).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5224" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I may be so bold, I think the TAC "school of thought" centers more about the way things are. This is why Berquist denied that the school was a great books school. We do not attempt to master the ideas of the great books, but we try to learn about things. Most of us only learn how to learn about things. But this is important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5225" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The TAC school of thought is largely indifferent to whether Aristotle or Aquinas said something because both are principle masters of that the school follows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5226" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They both help us to learn about things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not saying that this is better or worse, I am deliberately making no value judgements. But this does seem to me to be an accurate description of what goes on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5228" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why don't you just read Aristotle's missing "Primer on Catholic Doctrine Without Any Admixture of Error." That would solve the whole thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5229" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger:<br />One of the problems is that what is at stake in this issue is the role of reason in human life - it is easy for those with Faith to baptize Aristotle and call the whole thing off: Faith and reason - BOOM - it all just works together, no problems. Of course, I am preeminently FOR the copious reading of Aristotle and St. Thomas, which I think is the best part of TAC, intellectually speaking.<br />Which, I might remind everyone, is made manifest in the status above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5230" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T07:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T07:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consequently, I think if we really pay attention to what we've learned, we do not have a great amount of scholarly awareness. We know nothing, in fact, of current scholarship.. But we are ready to think deeply about things .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5231" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, it's going to take more than 5 in a row to move up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the end, I think for most people outside of academia, a baptized Aristotle is fairly benign.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5233" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know, Michael, I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5234" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am just getting started!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5235" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, Matthew J. Peterson, but if some one objects to "Lockistotle" than they are just close minded, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, unfortunately, I like seeing what other people think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5237" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem with not having any awareness of scholarship is that scholarship does overlap with arguments about what is true, so not being aware of it often means not being aware of plausible and challenging/opposing points of view.<br />And this is the problem of many tutors as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I tend not to multiply posts ad absurdum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5239" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Morning all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5240" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I think you are right, but I think that belongs more to the province of higher academia. Not ideally, but necessarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5241" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ideally a liberal education would begin at a younger age.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5242" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A summer session primer on Thomism in general (tradition, different flavors) for those going to grad school would be helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5243" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe this makes me a bad student, but I had no idea there were different types of Thomist when I started my MA. Or why they thought what they do. And everyone of course presupposes that I fit a mould I didn't know I fit (Lavalian). Just a minor gripe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5244" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I think your point waaaaay above about Aristotle's god obviously being a personal God is a good one, but it isn't something Aristotle explicitly says. And I think you conflate what is "per se" to the wise with what is "per se" to all.<br />Furthermore, what is evident using Aristotle's own principles and what Aristotle himself recognized are not the same. The De Anima may not be contrary to a Christian idea of the will, it may in fact support that notion beautifully, but De Anima itself does not recognize or discuss or in any way suggest that Aristotle had any explicit understanding of it. It would be like if someone were able to, I don't know, trisect the angle using only Euclid's Elements, and, for the sake of argument, let us say that this construction was certain, and true, and even elegantly simple. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that Euclid had any knowledge of this, even though he knew all the principles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ON my part i dont know whether aquinas baptized aristotle or not. It is an important question and i waver back and forth. I at least have to reread all of both again. What is of note is that aristotle is not at all straight forward at least in those works i recently reread. He forces the rereader to engage in dialogue or dialectic. I at least can see where the Straussians are coming from but i withhold judgement on these controversies for not having read enough and merely maintain that one can do no better than to learn at the feet of plato, aristotle and aquinas but the last is preeminant for he was angelic and enlightened by faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5246" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF: Bwhahaha...I have no idea how so many people know so much about what I actually think about anything.<br />Of course, "Lockistotle" is, by definition, an absurdity.<br />But the questions surrounding Locke and Aristotle are similar (they are different, but are they intrinsically contradictory, etc.).<br />So to play my role in this crowd, and since you have provoked me, let me be provocative:<br />John Locke speaks much more clearly about what all men call a personal God than Aristotle does, and the same holds for Locke and natural law (which Aristotle only speaks about once, in the Rhetoric, as a kind of rhetorical flourish).<br />Heh, heh, heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5247" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This may be easier for me on account of the fact that I'm pretty ignorant about all of this compared to many (most?) of you, but I don't think I've ever had too much distinguishing Aristotle and Thomas.<br />I think there is a real push amongst certain ideologically motivated academics (aren't they all) to try to separate their thought. As if Thomas had to distort Aristotle to make him fit into a Christian ethic. At the very least, I think there is solid evidence to the contrary, and the position that Aristotle and Thomas are largely in agreement is, at the least, a respectable one (even if it is not currently in vogue). Cf. McInerny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5248" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cf. Feser.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5249" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Joel HF wholeheartedly, to be clear, on the fact that many separate St. Thomas and Aristotle far too easily.<br />The usual historicism of the academy - which Daniel Lendman is right to say that TAC counters - makes it so many of these people never claim ANY thinker can overlap with ANY other because they lived at different times and places - and this is asinine. In fact, many seem to think that they all must contradict each other because they lived in different times and places.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5250" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look how we all agree! Lovely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5251" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Samantha, I'm leery of the idea that Aristotle had any idea of "person," as STA used the term, at all, whether for God or for man. I still think that the definition can be applied to his idea of God as expressed in the later books of the Metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">matthew, aristotle also mentions natural law in book v of nic. but that is obscure. In the rhetoric it is merely a tool to win an argument to be sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5253" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, once again, I'M the one praising TAC above all for reading tons of St. Thomas and Aristotle.<br />IN FACT, THAT VERY PRAISE IS WHAT BROUGHT THE NEVER ENDING THREAD's EXISTENCE INTO TIME AND SPACE IN THE STATUS ABOVE. <br />Of course, it already existed but it is in time by means of operation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquistotle (auto correct wanted to say Squid turtle) sounds like a goat stag. I hear that's the new trophy for dorm wars. <br />Taking Thomas as a legitimate interpreter, if not the best one? Completely reasonable. However you must be able to give more than an a priori assertion that such is the case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5255" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger: Yes, the question is whether what we have of Aristotle is opposed to natural law or not - this is similar to the personal God question. Book V of the Ethics is notably obscure.<br />But my point is that a TAC grad simply assuming Aristotle is a natural law guy is sloppy stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are no more dorm wars...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5257" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel- right, Caleb didn't say that Aristotle himself had this concept of a person as an individual substance of a rational nature, just that the concept fits reasonably well onto what he did say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5258" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, if Pater Edmund gets to cite this Copleston person as an authority, then I get to cite Caleb as one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5259" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take Caleb as an authority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5260" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I only cited Copleston to say "look even tiresome academcs make the same argument as Big Angry," not because I consider him an authority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5261" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh good. A further step is that you should take me as an authority on Caleb, even his unpublished remarks at dinner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5262" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">especially his unpublished remarks at dinner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5263" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So as I say above I am NOT for much of modern scholarship's separation of St. Thomas and Aristotle.<br />BUT, on the other hand, the easy way in which TAC grads speak and bandy about "the truth" and "finding the truth" and yaddayaddayadda gets a little to easy and sloppy and cartoony, especially when combined with the staggering amount of ignorance we have when we are very ignorant of opposing interpretations and we are relatively weak when it comes to understanding the arguments of the "bad guys" we read in the program.<br />Which is why, Daniel Lendman, I'm not sure if the conflation of St. Thomas and Aristotle is harmful or not to most non-academics. I think it may be, as it allows people to simply think there is no tension ever between faith and reason and all is grand in the pursuit of the truth.<br />But hey, as I say in the status - the fact we read lots of both is a good thing - a great thing - the best thing, intellectually speaking, about TAC IMO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5264" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I think that means I am not a tiresome academic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone is tiresome to Pater Edmund this morning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5266" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of Caleb, I met someone who had read his dissertation who didn't know that the tradition did include interpretations that A. held the soul to be immortal. It was a bit startling. That's the problem with a lot of modern analytic Aristotelian scholarship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5267" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not morning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait. Aquinas represents faith and Aristotle reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but Aquinas has faith and revelation and Aristotle does not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, I could be wrong about its harmfulness. It will be interesting to see the heritage of TAC play out over the next few decades.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Samantha, you wrote, "The reason I would say Aristotle's god isn't personal and not say that about Aristotle's views of humans is precisely because I deny that Aristotle views God as personal in the way that humans are obviously personal." What do you mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman: I worry they will snap to extremes very soon when the bottom falls out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i agree, matthew regarding natural law. I dont know what he means in the nic. And in the rhetoric he is tongue in cheek, naughty even -- i believe the rhetoric is where the straussians get their machiavellian interpretation of aristotle. I discern an outline for parts of the Prince there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5274" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be nice to see the heritage of TAC publish some really good scholarship in the next few decades. Weapons grade Thomism (TM) and all that. Take the fight to the journals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5275" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, people, Pater Edmund: if you told most people that Aristotle "believed or thought there was a personal God" that would be highly misleading, no? To be at all honest, you would have to highly qualify that. One simply does not get the sense from the little we from him as regards ANYTHING in relation to God having a will, or providence, or having some kind of personal relation to human beings, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5276" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hell, let's just publish this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5277" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund-- was I unclear or do you just disagree? Not sure if I should re-state of defend myself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5278" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are peers, and we have reviewed our work, and we deem it publishable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5279" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still not clear what Pater Edmund means by personal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, explain what you mean by humans being obviously personal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5281" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But "publishable" shall mean "always publishing"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Updating Vitae now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5283" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just mean what Boethius meant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's the comment I was responding to, I took it that Caleb Cohoe agreed with me! Now he needs to start posting himself. Resistance is futile.<br />Edit: I.e. the one Pater Edmund quoted above. I don't think humans being persons is obvious to Aristotle for the same reason, namely he didn't have the concept.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd cite Boetheus. Well then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5286" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger: I think a case can be made contra Straussians re Aristotle not being contradictory to the NL, but it is not as easy as a lot of TACers and others think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5287" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb cannot deny The Thread any longer. It draws him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5288" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Well, the Thread is what gives a Scholar his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5289" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it certainly has a light side and a dark side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5290" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And devotion to it also requires celibacy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5291" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5292" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, there are a lot of similarities between the thread and the force.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5293" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if it does draw him, you should have seen the look he gave me when I confessed to spending an hour on it yesterday</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5294" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll reply in a minute, Pater, my daughter needs orange juice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson are you using person the same way? All Pater Edmundmeans, I take it, is individual rational substance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">REGARDING straussians. They are formidable. My mentor and good friend has spent a year trying to refute one of their best on his last piece on the Republic. All i know of it is he is working on a seven fold distinction of "TO OV" whereat my mind explodes a bit and i realize my vocation is not to be a metaphysician. BTW that is the part he has been stuck on; i am pretty sure i cant help - he has spent 30 years meditating on the Republic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5297" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just realized - I could make this thread public and we could link to it on Twitter, etc. - give it its own Twitter account, etc.<br />Or not. <br />Doubtless the The Neverending Thread already "knows" what will be since it simply is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5298" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, so Pater Edmund, you complained that tiresome people who deny that Aristotle thought of God as a person don't likewise complain that Aristotle didn't think of humans as persons. I think that is because our first concept of a person *is* a human, and that is much of the content of the concept that we take with us when we apply it to God. Hence, Daniel Lendman's objectionable claim that Aristotle's God had will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5299" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this Thread an individual rational substance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5300" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hope that was clear-- I have more babies climbing on me than you guys do, I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pluralistic rational and irrational substance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5302" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it does think on its own thinking a lot. I believe that is heretical of recent: doesnt it fall under the anathema of being "self referential"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5303" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew - it is not. The Threadness is not individual, but rather exists most properly as the matterless form which imbues all other threads with that-which-makes-them-what-they-are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T08:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also Matthew - perhaps make it public only to friends of friends for now, or something. I know a few people who would like to be a part of the rapture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5305" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tom Harmon" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Harmon at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">In honor of Augustine, whose feast day this is, I'm chiming in to say, "He who claims to have read every comment in this thread, lies." And also to ask: did Aquinas ever give the sense that he interpreted Aristotle to judge that God is a person?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I woke up this morning, I noticed there was light outside my window. "Now every creature may be compared to God, as the air is to the sun which enlightens it. For as the sun possesses light by its nature, and as the air is enlightened by sharing the sun's nature; so God alone is Being in virtue of His own Essence, since His Essence is His existence; whereas every creature has being by participation, so that its essence is not its existence. Therefore, as Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. iv, 12): "If the ruling power of God were withdrawn from His creatures, their nature would at once cease, and all nature would collapse." In the same work (Gen. ad lit. viii, 12) he says: "As the air becomes light by the presence of the sun, so is man enlightened by the presence of God, and in His absence returns at once to darkness....<br />"The preservation of things by God is a continuation of that action whereby He gives existence, which action is without either motion or time; so also the preservation of light in the air is by the continual influence of the sun."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think Aristotle viewed God as a person, and I think he also thought ensoulment took place after conception, the formal cause of man informing matter after conception, whereas the soul of a plant is induced from the potency of matter. But it's a little unfair to say, because he cannot respond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5308" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is one of the reasons God can be known (yada yada admixture blah blah error) from creation. As St. Augustine so rightly points out (through faith) God underlies and permeates the whole of creation.... therefore he can be seen through it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is speculation, but Aristotle seems to say that the vegetative, and then animal "parts" of the soul happen first in time. But it has been a long time one of the younger folks could check me on that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Admixture of Obi-wansianism<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YQJsbbWNA<br />Obi-Wan explains the Force<br />Obi-Wan gives a cliffnotes explanation of what the Force is. This clip belongs to Lucasfilms and George Lucas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5311" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">crap. Mr. Bonbonventura (the candy to come - Halloween... MichaeL Myers . . . free association)<br />liked my comment. Stupid gnosis on the fritz again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5312" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is now the place for "Perennial Truths" <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr9mLP6NwnU<br />this is your left<br />your gonna die</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I figure if we all start with clear first principles, the likelihood of our straying from Father Aristotle diminishes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5314" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Left and right can be known by natural reason with no admixture of error by all men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5315" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the irrational attribute of the substance of this thread has returned. I kinda wondered what mb was about up there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am sorry, Scott posted and I responded in kind...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5317" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman - that video takes me back to SP 2009 in Adrw Lng's little shack - and reminds me of excellent scotch and cigars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5318" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i still confuse left and right. So idk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5319" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heretic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5320" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Remarkable that fine cigars and scotch is associated with that video. I doubt the creators ever had that in mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay Daniel, I got my left and my right. I know that, from natural reason and the chirality patriarchy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll play Meno, where are you going?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apropos of nothing, I am sad and dispirited just now because Caleb is replacing our Colorado license plates with Missouri ones.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5324" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's as far as I go.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5325" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Missouri is a fine sate! They say the liitle part that kind of hangs down into Arkansas, if were ceded to Arkansas would raise the average IQ of both states.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which part are y'all going to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5327" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's touchy this morning? "God underlies and permeates the whole of creation" is NOT what Obi is telling Luke. They are as different as left and right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">beats me, I have no sound here at "work"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5329" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I hope you prayed over your spiritual reading of Aristotle's Metaphysics this morning, to cleanse your soul from error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The bootheel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5331" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're in St. Louis for the year. It's hot and riot-y here, and there beer is ok but not as good as in Colorado, and of course no mountains. But actually I quite like it here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5332" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Scott, in your honor I found this appropriately significant article: <br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../hello-kitty-not-cat_n...<br />Hello Kitty Is Not A Cat Because Nothing Makes Sense Anymore<br />www.huffingtonpost.com<br />You might want to sit down for this one. Sanrio has revealed Hello Kitty -- the ...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(63, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is Scott? Do I even look like a Scott? That is so mean of you to trash Hello Kitty. Only a TAC alum would even THINK of doing that. I am shocked, SHOCKED!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5334" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">'And the wind shall say: "Here were decent godless people,<br />Their only monument the asphalt road, and a thousand lost golf balls."'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5335" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, you wrote, «But seriously, people, Pater Edmund: if you told most people that Aristotle "believed or thought there was a personal God" that would be highly misleading, no? To be at all honest, you would have to highly qualify that.»<br />Sure, I don't actually say that. I say Aristotle never used the word person, but he thought of God as a thinking being, which is what person means.<br />Then you wrote:<br />«One simply does not get the sense from the little we from him as regards ANYTHING in relation to God having a will, or providence, or having some kind of personal relation to human beings, etc.»<br />How is that relevant?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Schade.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5337" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Squid turtle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once knew a Scot who golfed into a wind so fierce,<br />His ball flew twenty yards head, but eighty in reverse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5339" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I totally agree with you that you are an authority on Caleb's unpublished thoughts. <br />Also, you wrote: "OK, so Pater Edmund, you complained that tiresome people who deny that Aristotle thought of God as a person don't likewise complain that Aristotle didn't think of humans as persons. I think that is because our first concept of a person *is* a human, and that is much of the content of the concept that we take with us when we apply it to God." <br />Well, I agree, but then one has the same problem with things that Aristotle actually says about God. Like thought for instance, our first concept of which comes from our own thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5340" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off to Vespers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5341" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dont understand the fuss, Matthew. You are equivocating. Pater has been clear as to what he means. But you keep insisting on a meaning of personal that pater is not using.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5342" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good luck getting an answer Pater.... you missed your window</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">personal: <br />1having a relationship with other rational beings.<br />2. Characteristic of an individual substance having reason</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5344" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">3. embarrassing photographs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5345" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I insist on what most people think of when they hear "personal God" - if you told most people Aristotle believed in or argued to a personal God you would obviously be misleading them based on how they would normally and naturally interpret the phrase.<br />Most people, when they hear the word person, think of an individual human being with reason and will, I think. One is delineating an individual as opposed to a species, and an individual of a particular kind - one with reason, and (perhaps therefore) will.<br />1) When one says "personal God" today, one generally means a God that relates directly to human persons. And that is nowhere in Aristotle. <br />2) But even if we wanted to qualify the phrase to mean "God is a person," most people hearing the phrase would think this renders him an individual with reason and will. <br />What this means in God's case, however, even for St. Thomas is highly qualified, of course. But even more generically: what Aristotle says - thought thinking thought that stands to the rest of the universe as first cause - is God as person in the most nub of a basic sense: insofar as he is in some way an individual and in some way has reason. IS reason. The fact that Reason/the Truth itself can be considered a person is marvelous and not apparent from what Aristotle says, especially when thought thinking thought is what causes all else to be.<br />What one means by person here is simply far beyond what comes to mind - it would be misleading for most without explaining in detail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5346" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I AM WHO AM is a person, of course, in some way, beyond all human notion of personhood and indeed our understanding of person could be said to derive from God's beyondpersonhood person. But in any event, to say Aristotle holds to a personal God is simply misleading given what most people will interpret that to mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5347" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does person add to nature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i agree, matthew but do you disagree with pater's limited sense? Not "what most contemporaries first think?". I do not see any real disagreement here (except perhaps on the matter of will).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5349" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, if Aristotle thinks God is an efficient cause (obviously controversial), he must think that God has appetite in some sense and therefore will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5350" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But. I wouldn't disagree that thought thinking thought and serving as eternal (and immutable?!?) prime mover negates personhood, for Aristotle or otherwise. That's not what I'm saying.<br />So much to say, and much is at stake. One needs to see the enormous problem of how God could at all relate to human persons for Aristotle.<br />I think something like JA Escalante says is likely true - he saw intermediary beings something like angels, or where his contemporaries got the idea of the gods from, but he was likely very unsure about this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5351" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig I apologize for the interjection, but Matthew, with your last line in mind, do you suppose the Incarnation, esp. with the Theophany in mind, contextualizes the meaning of God as person(s), at least in the distinctly Christian sense?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5352" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(to add the missing premises to my abbreviated argument above:<br />1) a knower can only move if it has an appetite<br />2) will is the only "immaterial appetite"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5353" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="John Brungardt" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Brungardt at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, Lauren; I'm writing my dissertation elsewhere, not on Facebook .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5354" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">COME ON, John Brungardt!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5355" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T11:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Aristotle had no concept of the will" is another one of those claims I dislike.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5356" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Brungardt" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Brungardt at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will admit though, this thread is giving it a run for its money re: length. But don't worry, I'm hardly done with Chapter 1.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5357" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: all this "he thought X, so therefore he must have thought Y" talk makes me uneasy unless accompanied by intense and fair argumentation and meticulous examination and research. That statement is fine for the Book of Faces, of course, but it would and should never get you published anywhere ever without very rigorous argument from Aristotle's texts. But you know this. <br />The entire problem here, people, is that by assuming Thomistotle one lays the shoddy groundwork for upending much else later on down the line, and risks misunderstanding what Aristotle does and doesn't say, and therefore risks missing the truth of things, etc.<br />In this example, what would appetite even mean for what Aristotle says about God in the admittedly little we have of his work? What would will mean? Here's what it would not mean: what most people think about when they think about God with a will today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5358" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(And I'm not unreflective about these things: I've had claims like these pushed at me for two years now)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I AM WHO AM is what God said to Abraham. Good section on this in Lumen Fidei. A marriage of Hebrew and Hellenic traditions, of sorts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5360" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT DOES the existence of "PB" refute the first two definitions of personal i gave setting aside Michael's for the time being? That is matter for disertation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5361" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jon Andrew Greig: Might it be a little too easy for Christians to talk about God as person and foist that into places where it isn't because they believe God came to earth as a human person? Yes. Yes indeed.<br />What I don't like about Thomistotle is that it evades the real problems Aristotle had, and the tensions and even contradictions he faced within his own work, and the overflowing mystery and shock and beauty and solving of seemingly insurmountable problems the Incarnation solves, etc.<br />It tends towards a shallow rationalism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What would will mean? Here's what it would not mean: what most people think about when they think about God with a will today."<br />Well, I don't think Aquinas's position would be what most people think about a "God with a will"? I'm not even sure Aquinas's position on our own will matches what people think about will.<br />(assuming that we're talking about the same group of people here)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really, I would like an answer to what the will of the unmoved mover would be like</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5364" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: I'd probably agree with you and Pater Edmund and Caleb Cohoe in opposing those people - may we all do so and work together doing so throughout long and successful careers - but we will not succeed unless we are very, very careful and cautious and more rigorous than the other side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point is, though, that I think the question of will in God comes down to the dispute over whether or not God is an efficient cause.<br />The talk in the De Anima about appetite is there for the sake of showing how knowledge (whether sense or intellect) produces motion in animals. It seems to me like something like that would have to transfer to God, if he produces motion as an efficient cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would not the will of the unmoved mover be more like a final cause? Or would it really be like an efficient cause, as when He creates a human soul, that soul is the formal cause of the person created, but in relation to the human soul, God is an efficient cause. So God wills that each of us exists, and He does this as an efficient cause. QED.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But say more about what Aristotle might think the "will" of the unmoved mover is or would be like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^But that's got more than unmoved mover^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5369" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Matthew, in one sense that's true about the human person, but I specifically mention the Theophany where the three persons are made manifest. It seems that we have three distinct agents at work, one of which is particularly manifest as a human, while his work as a human brings forth the other two non-human agents (Father and Holy Spirit). This is a bit of a loose thought, but I wonder if whether or how that might change the context of understanding God as person.<br />(Again, I apologize, but I haven't worked my way through this God-awfully long thread.)<br />And I agree on the Thomistotle'ing wariness. Aristotle leaves enough open questions which Thomas fills in, and I think one can argue that there is an evenual consistency, but one which A's writing doesn't make clear in itself without a good commentary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5370" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">will is not equal to efficient cause</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig (Anyway, I have to run for now. Back later.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But appetite mediates a knowing power and efficient causality based on that knowing power. Thus, if Aristotle's God acts according to his knowledge, he must have an appetite (i.e. an inclination to what he knows to be good).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I thought unmoved mover was subsistent existence; like a rock from which a animal might jump off of; the rock does not push the animal, it just gives the animal a solid place from which to jump. Were it not for that solid, unmoved place, the leg and joint could not work, the leg of the animal would flail in space. God is unmoved mover with respect to existence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is difficult but for the rest we seem all to agree. All i am saying. Let's dispute where there is real dispute and difficulty. (The will that is.) [Woah. This was to mp way up there. Sorry ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes let's. Will is not the same as efficient cause, despite what Ed says</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But everything in God is one, so He must be all causes in all respects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">distinguo, Bonbon<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't tink Aristotle would say anything about the will of the unmoved mover, because of the admixture of error thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5380" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">trying... my head hurts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle would say that the final cause of Nature is the will of the umoved mover. No?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the final cause of nature is survival.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thnk Goethe said is was reproduction, hence his numerous mistresses, and the character of Faust.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But is "thought thinking on itself" manifestation of a will?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good question, is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm sticking to: The final cause of Nature is what God desires.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5387" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^meaningless answer^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a movement of God to God as a desired or chosen end for its own sake?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"why did I stub my toe?"<br />"it is what God desires"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"it is what God desires" makes sporting events complicated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, or, rather, the final cause of Nature is God's appetite. <br />You stubbed your toe because you were a stubborn fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God loves the perfection of Nature, so much so, He gave His only begotten Son.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^not metaphysics^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the will of Aristotle's god contained in the imposition of the Platonic solids gnostically around the world serpent?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or rather, among?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, even if I grant that Aristotle's First Cause doesn't have will, won\t I have to admit it for the secondary causes? He says they move their spheres out of love for the first. But if they were pure floating intellects, I don't see how they could love.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i thought He sent the Son to perfect nature? the whole supernatural love and forgiveness thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5398" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[PB liked u again, MB. Progress on 'personal' in the first sense (but we hope it dont lead to the 3rd sense. ) ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">love that can conquer even death.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Among... plus we are thinking of God as First Cause.<br />But all this by inference and speculation. Let Aristotle answer his own test.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but beware talking serpents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle ain't talking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Serpent, in the garden, tempted Eve,<br />The gravity of death to disbelieve.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the serpent has faith. he just don't want to serve.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O, how grave the sin, how deep the fall,<br />That took the blood of Christ to rescue all!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">back to free will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the garden was a metaphor, or an allegory-infused with a syllogism, or something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there really may have deen a garden, and man was infused with different kinds of good knowledge from the fruit God prepared on the trees of which man was allowed to eat. There was a Euclid tree. And man had dominion over the animals, until the fall, then after the fall, while man still had some dominion over the animals, God used animals and nature as elementary lessons to help lead man back to the right path, hence the Prophet's talking donkey, and the Book of Proverbs exhortation to consider the animals which are "exceedingly wise" and Our Lord's use of animals as part of revelation. BC, Aristotle was also doing the same thing but on the admixture of error track.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5409" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Rose M. Halpin" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rose M. Halpin at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This may have been posted before, I have no idea, the last time I looked at this it was at about 3 thousand comments...and now it's over 5. Impressive. It's an interesting Ted Talk. Thought many interested in this thread might like it:<br />http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong...<br />On being wrong<br />www.ted.com<br />Most of us will do anything to avoid being wrong. But what if we're wrong about ...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Odds are, it's been posted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5411" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can a rational being not have a will? I cannot prove this, but it doesn't seem possible. What is an intellect without a will? Can it do anything?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I may be wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i'm frequently wrong. Has there been a consideration of Jewish Metaphysics, or a discussion that the word Israel has been defined as "struggle with God".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">intellect without a will.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can it do anything.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consider, now, the intellect and will,<br />The first is weak, the other one is ill.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5417" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we need to bring some Franciscans into the discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a child has an intellect, but the child's will is often very selfish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So too with many adults.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but an intellect without a will...wouldn't be alive-so it couldn't do anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what do you say John Ruplinger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5422" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas's position is that every intellectual being necessarily has a will. In Aristotle, it's a matter of controversy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think every intellect is just stuck with a will and imagination. It is what it is. A three-legged chair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but John was posing a question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John is a three-legged chair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5426" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Frank, I don't think Peregrine Bonaventure can see John Ruplinger's comments for some reason</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5427" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(nor vice-versa)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Alas, I cannot. Do you have a spyglass I can look through?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5429" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger asked several comments ago: "Can a rational being not have a will? I cannot prove this. It doesnt seem possible. What is an intellect without a will? Can it do anything?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The human soul has three parts in unity: intellect, will and imagination. It is a three-for-one deal, which proves that God is a Jew.<br />These parts in unity seek truth (intellect), goodness (will) and beauty (imagination).<br />This is why Augustine uses syllogisms, enthymemes and metaphor in the same appeal: Unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i sent you a friend request Ed Langely...Metaphysics intrigues moi.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5432" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the unity of the transcendentals isn't in Aristotle, except maybe in a nascent way, and therefore can't be used to determine what Aristotle is saying.<br />Ed, you'd probably be right to admit it from secondary causes, however, the secondary causes move the spheres according to love of the first. It isn't clear to me that that love is reciprocal, again, in Aristotle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then, does aristotle not address the question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5434" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not that I know of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5436" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But then again John, it has been a few fortnights since I've studied me some Aristoilet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God's love of Venus, thus, is urequited,<br />Woe the Planet, whom the Godhead spited!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5438" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^is that metaphor or syllogism?^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Edward, can the love from the secondary movers (gods, demons, angels) be show to have been reciprocated by the first mover? or no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Day after shining day, turn afer turn,<br />The Earth, alone, loves Deus in return.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">many people love Deus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but symbiotic reciprocity needs more representation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if it can be demonstrated along those lines. But it still seems to me that God cannot be an efficient cause unless he desires what he causes as something good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did Aristotle say anthing about the rings of Saturn?<br />Among the Planets, I think the Earth is the only heavenly body who loves God in return, because she dutiful remains in the center of things.<br />But couldn't you say all the Planets love God, by allowing other things to revolve around them, by allowing rings to be formed, their mass and motion exerting a cause?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><desires what he causes as something good> Please say more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5446" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">planets are inanimate....pb is having fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">edward langley many demonstrations of symbiotic reciprocity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5448" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">were there drugs in my coffee this morning? I thought I had it black but reading this is making me wonder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Planets may be inanimate, but they have form!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but they don't have will....caffiene is a drug</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Planets have form without will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">plants aren't totally inanimate right? They have a vegetative soul. They can move toward or away something beneficial or harmful. Is this crazy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Planets have no will, who keeps them on track, in harmony? This must be good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, the parasites in the taco I ate last night are the efficient cause of my vomiting, but that isn't an idea of the good (or really any idea at all) So maybe you mean "rational efficient cause", right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5455" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Planets have no form, who do they move in symphonic harmony?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They don't BonBon they just fall....... perpetual falling into the curved spacetime</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, efficient cause with knowledge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, so the perpetual falling into curved spacetime is the cause of the harmonic relations. I see now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5459" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope. no harmony just free-fall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">in a straight line (along a geodesic)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's an atheistic cosmology </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5462" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone knows that angels carry the planets along</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5463" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">atheistic??? no way! the angels are just shoving them down</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">with a matterless form ephemeral phlogiston plunger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Free falling. Hence, the Tom Petty song.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES. I still am fond of the angel thesis. Call me nostalgic or romanic. I dont care. I just dont drink Newton's koolaid. Too many difficlties and some pretty weighty assumptions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5467" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T13:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Newton was just an approximation, without the benefit of any causality. his Koolaid tastes bad. We rock the general relativity fruit punch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once knew a Gard'ner, his name was Plant. He had a rational soul.<br />But his grapevine said to the little ant, now let's go on a stroll.<br />(My love, now let's go on a stroll.)<br />Said the little ant to the grapevine 'Dear, what lovely long legs you have,'<br />My legs are useful, my little ant, and better my God to love,<br />(And better my God to love.)<br />For I walk to Church on Sunday, and afterwards to brunch,<br />Where my fruit it good, it's understood, and tasty and sweet to munch.<br />(And tasty and sweet to munch.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For my firstfruits go to the vintner. And his, in turn, to the priest;<br />And with that bread, His Body, instead, attend the Glorious Feast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5470" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, is it clear that the vegetative soul is individual as well? St. Thomas writes that "act of existing" is part of man's essence, in which case the immortal soul follows. for the vegetative (and quite possibly the animal - no clear thoughts yet) it isn't clear to me that the soul of a plant exists beyond the species level, as a principle of that sort of plant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The soul of a plant is induced fom the potency of its matter. That's what I was told to believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">really? I thought soul was the substantial form of the plant (or whatever) whereas the matter is what individuates</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Daniel, is it clear that Aristotle thinks that plants have individual souls, and can I tell my right from left?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5476" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, they "aren't" very much, so there isn't a very strong unity in plants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5477" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T14:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and in TAC grads (I jest, I jest)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5478" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Opposition to Peregrine Bonaventure is the principle of unity in TAC grads</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5479" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Final cause?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5480" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">clearly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5481" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">this seems to be petering out we need someone to come in and say something crazy... Peterson tell me again how the American founding fathers had a good notion of the common good and Aristotle's Politics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5482" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's talk about NFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That would be so awesome!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5485" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What Would Aaron Dunkel Say?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as I can tell, St. Paul and the Fathers would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids conception is inherently sinful. Although, only venially so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NFP is manichean. DEF! that's Augustine and its his feast. QED ! (Just stirring troubles. I apologize.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To what in Paul's writings to you refer, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel is probably right though in seriousness. It is permitted today. Augustine seems a bit stronger agin it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5490" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#yesallperiodicallyabstainingcouples</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb: "say something crazy" = jr's discussion killer / thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5492" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think all of you are sinners, either because you use NFP inappropriately or for other sinful reasons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5493" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh $@/$...this is like the part on the roller coaster just before....<br />Clickclickclickclickclick</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't believe I'm hearing this. But really, why should I be surprised?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5495" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to add to the madness: https://www.facebook.com/angelvivaldi/photos/a.10153261369530494.1073741826.206070425493/10154503095485494/?type=1<br />Mobile Uploads<br />Truth!<br />By: Angel Vivaldi</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A soul of a plant comes from its material generation, not from God. The matter is what individuates one plant from another. The soul of man comes from outside of matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5497" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can plants use NFP? It's raining and I'm bored.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The would violate Goethe's doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And let's just get this out there: the Fathers had ALL KINDS of whack ideas about sex and women. Good thing y'all are only required to revere them as examples of heroic virtue, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Peregrine informs TAC alum by inverse proportionality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5502" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm concerned that I spelled whack wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5503" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, the consensus patrium is infallible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woe to women who embrace chauvanistic entitlement syndrome!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(but perhaps I missed the sarcasm?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5506" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope I'm completely serious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CES</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I REALLY like what the Fathers said on sex. Great stuff im'h'o.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Freud and Goethe, sitting in a tree...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Father" and "Doctor" are titles given to people because they are theological authorities. "Saint" merely indicates that they were exemplary in some way (in Thomas Becket's case, for example, standing up for the Church's rights before the onslaught of the state).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Therese, Little Flower, Doctor of the Church!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5512" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I missed the part wherein they were all against NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, if you are required to take every teaching of Augustine (inter alia) on sex and women as authoritative, then you are seriously out of luck, but a lot of them massively contradict more recent teachings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, we are required to take the points on which all the Fathers agree as definitive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5515" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I need an adult.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My mom told me never to discuss sex with women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then run along</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, when deciding an argument based on authorities, the Fathers trump nearly everyone else (except the Magisterium and Scripture)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(If this NFP discussion runs out of steam, we could always discuss this: http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/Scotus%20-%20Vat%2016.pdf)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5520" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, when discussing sex, as with booze, we are vastly superior to Protestantism so let's not ruin that by becoming puritanical remnantists re the issue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5521" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was only a matter of time with this thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oedipus' mom, upon learning from her Shrink that her son may have had a certain psychosis, replied:<br />Oedipus-schmoedipus! as long as he loved his mother.<br />(ba-da-bum!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just said not "talk" about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not puritannical. I dont see that in Augustine, what i have read. I just think our heads are so in the gutter we cant see what he is saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think Daniel Lendman is our new resident troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And now, let us go now, you and I, to that really steamy section of The Wasteland:<br />She turns and looks a moment in the glass, <br />Hardly aware of her departed lover; <br />Her brain allows one half-formed thought to pass: <br />“Well now that’s done: and I’m glad it’s over.”<br />When lovely woman stoops to folly and <br />Paces about her room again, alone, <br />She smoothes her hair with automatic hand, <br />And puts a record on the gramophone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I see you trying to pawn off homework as thread fodder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Smantha Cohen is the new troll, did you catch the snark?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly we are worse than pagans in this. At least many of them respected early Christians and some were even in awe. Today we cant even fathom what they said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5530" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine still can't spell people's names, Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5531" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catch the witness, catch the spark,<br />Catch the spirit, catch the snark.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, was that Wasteland quote directed at me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcyqIA2eJww<br />Rush - Tom Sawyer (Live In Holland) WIDESCREEN 720p<br />The "best" opening to a concert ever.................Lil' Rush rules!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She stoops to conquer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5535" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think Augustine was authoratative but he is helpful and interesting. Chrysostum is more indulgent. Much later, but Liguori is great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5536" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of Peregrine's defining characteristics, in fact it's his haeccitas I think, is his remarkable ability to evade questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wasteland?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5538" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry....was at lunch when I was tagged....but I have so much to share on this discussion of sex and NFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-28T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-28T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For one....the onus is on the man Gen 38:10</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he's casting aspersions on my virtue, but whatever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aspereges me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hi Sam! I didn't realize you were on this thread...How have you and Caleb been?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5543" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fathers are only infallible when unanimous and when interpreting scripture, I thought. Am I off there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure, I thought that unanimity was the only requirement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grandparents for Responsible Use of NFP, Unite!<br />(GRUNFP)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Ed is correct. Although, it seems that unanimity is probably accidental....speaking with the voice of the Church would be essential for infallibility regarding Faith and morals. Unanimity, it seems, is the standard by which it is judged that they speak with the voice of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i suspect Edward is right. They merit respect and an open mind always though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you would probably say the same thing if there was unanimous consent amongst the cult of the Faithful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5549" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although VI possibly shows me to be wrong:<br />"8. Now since the decree on the interpretation of Holy Scripture, profitably made by the Council of Trent, with the intention of constraining rash speculation, has been wrongly interpreted by some, we renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as follows: that in matters of faith and morals, belonging as they do to the establishing of Christian doctrine, that meaning of Holy Scripture must be held to be the true one, which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture.<br />9. In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret Holy Scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the fathers."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">None are so close minded as those who profess but one thing, namely to have an open mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O, the folly of liberally educated women!<br />They believe they've earned the right to talk about any subject under the sun!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But VI is only speaking about Scripture there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but it's the only source I've found so far that mentions the consensus patrium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just kidding. Pretending to be an entitled Victorian man of chauvanistic leisure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nothing in Denzinger?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't had time to look carefully</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5557" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're doing well, Aaron, how about you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5558" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would think it would be very hard to establish much that was actually unanimous among the church fathers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another interesting question is the status of the text where St. Paul indicates that he isn't speaking authoritatively.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point was that Daniel, who has conveniently vanished, could find a lot of quotes from the Fathers that say messed up things about women and sex and marriage, and still not have established much of anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And by "messed up" I guess I mean "incorrect and also personally upsetting to me"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5562" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will note that up through the mid1950's there was a serious position held by many theologians that condemned NFP. Castii Conubii es not definitively resolve it, as neither it does castration of criminals. These theologians argued that, because of a probable opinion that it was permitted existed a confessor could not impose his view that it was not permitted on a penitent acting in good faith, but that in fact NFP was not justifiable and one ought not encourage it.<br />I point this out because I think rather than taking objections seriously, there is an assumption of a magisterial rubber stamp approving NFP... while there is something closer to that with the last few popes, the awareness of even recent and respected opposition should give pause and at least urge the answering of objections, rather than mere dismissal.<br />One of my top moments of frustration in theology at TAC was when we hit Augustine on make up and dyed hair. While I found and find Aquinas's view more tenable, almost every single student shrieked and rejected it out of hand in the exact manner the modern world does with our condemnation of contraception. Exactly the same. So of course I defended Augustine, while disagreeing with him....the willingness to think, "well just as I condemn things in the world and the world is so blind it doesn't fathom the reasons, maybe I too have blindness, maybe a value of ancient authors is that they stand outside of our context and provide a challenge, intellectually and moral to our assumptions."<br />But when that actually happened, by a saint, just shrieking and out of hand rejection....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5563" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course Augustine is authoritative....hello, Church Father, Doctor of the Church...he has auctoritas dripping off him....he may not be conclusive by himself, but authority he has in spades...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5564" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Listen, I am really not on a crusade here. If you want I can dig up some quotes I read grad school that were troubling to me. But do you guys really need me to do that? Can we not agree that a lot of the Fathers, despite being awesome and important and heroic examples of virtue, were also products of their times who had some unfortunate views of women and sex? No?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you, Joshua. . . . (Note this is not new. Chrysostom was likely martyred bc the empress took offense at his preaching on these matters. When examined these teachings have the support of reason and faith. We give them no fair hearing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5566" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go Samantha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think there was a group of early desert gals who were comparable to the National Organization of Women. Nothing similar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i havent read that much. But they exude sound reason and derive from principles we in blindness non comprehenderunt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5569" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">they were also half nuts. And Roman Catholics don't really need to pretend otherwise; Scholasticism vastly improved on the ancient writers in many ways, and it's only a post Vatican II thing to get all gooey over the Fathers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, they are "hard sayings" which you acknowledged above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I think it sucks that one of my theological heroes "fail(ed) to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we not also products of our time, with some also very unfortunate views? I refuse to write off any position of the Fathers under such a blanket statement. I need to know what the position is and the arguments for it, before I dare judge for it is just as possible that I am the one to be judged unfortunate.<br />While I do agree some views that end up as wrong are also as you say, too many write off anything they don't like under that same rubric...so forget that rubric, and only reject after a fair appraisal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5573" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">this isn't bad as a chronicle of patristic weirdness on the question of gender and sex:<br />http://www.amazon.com/The-Concept-Woman.../dp/0802842704<br />The Concept of Woman: The Aristotelian Revolution, 750 B.C. - A. D. 1250<br />www.amazon.com<br />This pioneering study by Sister Prudence Allen traces the concept of woman in re...See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not saying they should be rejected because they are "hard"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5575" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and sure, we should avoid what Lewis calls chronological snobbery; but when you have pagan writers sometimes sounding much saner about women than some ancient Christian writers, you know its not just a question of anachronism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5576" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is true, but too many say that and then proceed to use it to ignore anything hard...I am not accusing Mrs. Cohoe of that. Merely making a warning. And because we may, through such snobbery, mistake the sense or be wrong about it being wrong, we should err on the side of a reverential reading. As Thomas always did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not so JA. "Vastly"? corrected disagreement, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5578" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">VASTLY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5579" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Fathers are very often a mess argumentatively speaking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chrysostum? really? less sane?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">did I single out Chrysostom? I said "some ancient Christian writers"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5582" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well that is true... systematic thinking was left to those, like Thomas, trying to sum up their work...John Chrysostom is a great example, commenting on "take a little wine" and moving from drunkness not wine is a sin, to advice about sanctifying you hand by hitting blasphemers, and then back to wine again, and then to pastoral solicitude, and then....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5583" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clement of Alexandria, cough, cough</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5584" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My head would become unscrewed if I did not have my wife. And I trust I am of some small use to her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5585" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I plead not guilty to the charge of chronological snobbery that apparently no one has made against me. I am merely excusing the Fathers for some of the terrible things they thought about women by noting that those were easier mistakes to make in those days than now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was replying to Joshua there, Samantha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5587" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Note that this is an excuse that none of you have</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I'm not sure they were *that* much easier to make</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I know JA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5590" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're my only friend</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Fathers may have had no use for women in one sense; they needed Holy Mother the Church in another. Hence: a massive portion of Her infallible dogmatic theology please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, idk about Clement. And not all of Chrysostum is so. He was a preacher first (and orator). What was the purpose and audience?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WRT NFP<br />If you can find them<br />Fr. Orville Griese. "The Rhythm In Marriage And Christian Morality"<br />Msgr. McFadden has an article in (I believe) the 1954 Thomist covering the debate and its history. Unfortunately I have all of the Thomist issues from 1939, 1940, 1965-2008....no 1950's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">caeci caecos ducunt, sicut dixisti, Joshua.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5595" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I'm saying is, I hope Big Angry doesn't come back here with some cherry-picked quotes from the Fathers and think he has proved that use of NFP is sinful. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not that I have a dog in *this* fight, either. Unless we re-convert of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what horror of horrors did they say, Samantha . . . as one who has read little. But to be fair maybe something from Augustine or Chrysostum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5598" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="David Upham" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">David Upham at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will this thread hit 10,000?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5599" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh and in 1937 the Holy Office issued a warning about NFP and promoting it (called the rhythm method then), that it coudl lead to denial of the marital debt. Obviously any moral version must hold that both parties consent, because the reasons for NFP would not negate the marriage debt.<br />FWIW, Prümmer speaks very cautiously of NFP. He first says a couple who is overly burdened, in dire straits, medical issues, should place their hope in God. If they reckon it necessary, live in complete continence. He then adds, the note from the Sacred Penitentiary in 1880 (first mention by the magisterium, namely that a couple strongly tempted to onanism, may be left in good faith wrt the rhythm method) and presents it as a possibility rather reservedly. Though in the edition I have the appendix adds to that section with the teaching of Pius XI and XII (the original edition was before both)<br />There are some very serious objections to NFP. And it is hard to morally differentiate it from actions that are sinful. I do think throughout the ages, from the Fathers to now, there has always been two schools of thought about the marital act. You can see it in authors that condemned relations during pregnancy or menstruation and other definitive infertile periods.....While a cherry picked quote from a Father does not settle the debate, and is unlikely exactly apropos, I am just saying these divisions raise unresolved matters that should be taken seriously</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5600" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I already pulled out one quote, above, pretty symptomatic of the overall problem I thought</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5601" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, this thread will go past 10,000, and this is a true statement, purged of error, because I have been reading Aristotle in a prayerful manner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AT the start of this thread i believe a fair statement regarding its sinfulness was expressed. Indeed culpability may be nil for many bc of so much confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catholic Women rise up against the Desert Fathers!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is it dessert?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear, until just now half of the comment over the last two hours were not visible to me....now some of the comments make a heck of a lot more sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, I am not a Catholic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i just noticed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5608" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think FB was having trouble temporalizing so much TNET, cutting half of the comments....<br />And so? I mean, so what that you are not Catholic...the relvancy of my point remains, that even relatively recently NFP was not de facto accepted, but reputable authorities had issue with it. Just meaning you should give a fair shake to the arguments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why so angry, then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's angry? I am just annoyed at commenting on a different conversation than the one the people I was conversing with were having (it was almost every other comment cut!)<br />Oh wait, you aren't talking to me are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So let me get this straight...... married couples are required to procreate as often as possible?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like bunnies....that is definitely what I am saying /sarc (NB I think NFP morally licit for grave reasons, just recognize that it is not "obvious" that it is)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so there are occasions where not having sex is licit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5614" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Such as in Church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5615" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or at work, probably</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">While eating, while walking the dog</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5617" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depends on the work...at USC I don't know....it might be obligatory....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5618" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm only angry at PB, who quoted the Wasteland at me disrespectfully</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is sex a good thing that comes from being married (licitly?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5620" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The nice thing about (finally) becoming an adult is I get to have dessert when I want. So I have dessert EVERY SINGLE DAY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goodness no, Samantha, that was honestly not aimed at you! Sorry if it gave that impression.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(except on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5623" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(NB: I cant see ANY of pb's posts)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I thought dessert=sex in that comment....you can have that even of those days!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NB Neither can I see Peregrine....have had him blocked since my first comment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I'm not required to, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5627" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only if your wife requests the debt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and if she doesn't?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Victorian "she stoops to conquer" was for you. That is as virtuous as you are, and that is virtuous indeed. The TS Elliot section unmasks some of the banality of modernism. That is different. <br />I suppose there is some subtext in the feminine animus against the Church Fathers.<br />I do not know why people read them outside of the context of Holy Mother Church.<br />Compared with the dogmatic theology of the Church, the Church Fathers are individual players.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5630" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then you are free Mr. Bundy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5631" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry bad 90's reference there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5632" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">the best thing about the Church Fathers is you can dig up pretty much any quote for any crackpot theological position</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^exactly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially matters dealing with biology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not really. MB. Do they justify crack or pot?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5636" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But more to the point, if we decided to abstain, on any day, for any reason, where is the moral ambiguity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not really what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the reason for abstention.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5639" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The debt must be PAID."<br />"But what if the rent is too damn high?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5640" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is in the intention...some moralist said, e.g., abstaining completely for a health reason was fine, but abstaining only on days where she might be fertile, and not on days she is not is different</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5642" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does having sex on infertile days amount to an act that deliberately avoids conception?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, if a Bears game runs late on a Monday night, that's cool, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is the intention, and what you are trying to do</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question is whether it changes the object of the act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it's not an exact science. There is admixture of error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that really follows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the simple act of sex on any day is (without barriers or chemicals) is not avoiding conception</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never pondered these distinctions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5651" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^you can say that again^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't follow, it is the presumption of the thing. You mean not to get pregnant, so you plan not to have sex on those days...or is NFP doing something else? Is it some game I am ignorant of?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The act itself considered alone without contraception is not avoiding conception. Something else must go along with it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^what he said^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Such as contraceptives or onanism...etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">like I just said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never pondered these distinctions. My wife doesn't give me a spare moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5658" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It isn't that simple...leaving aside that intention and circumstance can make it a mortal sin, the object of the act is not so simply defined as you are doing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's in the word "intend"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes the word intend is not meant subjectively - like when we talk about the priest intending what the Church intends with the sacraments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fornication is just sex after all...nothing immoral about sex...but we say that it differs in its OBJECT not merely circumstance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes but lets not get too far off topic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are you talking about? 1 The priest does not have to intend what the Church intends. That is heresy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5664" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't want this to suddenly be about fornication </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why I said "licit", which all of the above assumes marriage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">2. You are ignoring the question of what the object of the act is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">3. I have no idea what you think moral intention means</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is a curious thing- the Trad-ish argument against NFP works by looking at the intent of sexual activity over the month as a whole, not just each act in isolation (because as Max and Mike point out, that's just "abstinence" then); whereas the argument against contraception does the opposite, it argues from the nature (so the argument goes) of the discrete act, regardless of overall intention (that is, regardless of intention for generously fruitful marriage, each act cannot ever be modified to frustrate the natural end). Just an observation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sigh - okay. Since we're numbering things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's talk about sex, baybee, let's talk about...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5671" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOT YOU AND ME</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine is actually correct about the teaching of the Catholic Church there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah - I guess I'm trying to make a subtle point and I don't have the necessary words at my disposal right now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NFP is only allowed for grave hardship; though the criteria of that aren't given clearly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did your wife have the baby yet, Max?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz - re priest intending what the Church intends - I know I've seen that formulation - but the word intent does not mean what it means normally when we think about intention....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're welcome, Pope Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB - you really are nothing but a troll, amirite?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JAson, that would be a prudential matter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No baby yet - otherwise I wouldn't be here....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That formulation is perahps necessary for an orthodox priest, not for a valid sacrament.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not entirely prudential</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I exaggerated by calling it heretical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5684" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there are rules informing the prudence there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, there are always clear cut areas and grey areas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no - i think it had something to do with sacraments when the priest slightly botches the formulation....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course I have no dog in this fight</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">anyway - i need to get back to doing something that resembles work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5689" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">me neither. A well formed conscience and the guidance of an orthodox spiritual director kind of remove the dog fighting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5690" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A priest might not believe in transubstantiation, but the sacrament is still valid as long as he intends to do wht the Church does....which in his mind might simply be a community meal....just as even an atheist might validly baptise, while believing it all BS, because he intends to do what the Church does, namely a baptism, even though he thinks that is hogwash</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just like to argue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">there I said it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5693" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who doesn't? Endorphins for everyone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5694" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, NO! really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5695" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, if you guys ever can, those articles I mention earlier are very good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua pm me those please</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">some of these people may not know me (and none in the Biblical sense, Mr. Bonbon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">closing in on 6000 comments deep of Rabelaisian madness, alumni!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5699" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T17:46:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait - it's not cool to use NFP so I can save up to buy a Water Jet Pack?<br />http://www.gizmag.com/x-jetpacks-hydro-jetpack/30776/<br />X-Jetpacks tweaks the ride of the hydro jetpack<br />First, we saw the JetLev-Flyer, then the Flyboard, and...<br />GIZMAG.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5700" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">That, I believe, is a grave reason</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm saving up for new socks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5702" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T17:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, OK. But what about a Tesla? I mean, THAT'S good for the ENVIRONMENT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, you're still a jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5704" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T17:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz: I'd be interested in the articles as well - go ahead, shoot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jerkegrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5707" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jerkegrine Wrongaventure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">glad I could help</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't it quite?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So very just.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and accurate!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nine out of ten Doctors of the Church agree! A dogma a day keeps the Peregrine away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-28T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-28T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Things seemed to have gone VERY Smoker-Patio-ish since I last noted this thread...... Play nice, boys.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5714" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T17:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan? Really? You're asking me to play nice? It didn't work 18 years ago, it isn't going to work now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(212, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice nice very nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5716" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T17:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously though<br />1. If a couple is sterile, temporarily or otherwise, still the nature of the act they are doing is procreative and ence licit, in that regard<br />2. If a couple contracepts, that changes the nature of the act, the object of the act. It is sodomitical in a sense, and not procreative. Not merely the intention, but the object changes<br />Another example<br />1. A married couple does the act, it is one thing<br />2. An unmarried couple does it, the object changes, not merely the circumstances. The claim is that marriage affects what the act is<br />Another example<br />1. I am not eating now, but you wouldn't say I am fasting merely because I do not eat continiously<br />2. I choose to not eat for a day ad gloriam Dei. That is fasting. The abstention from food is common to both my not-eating between lunch and dinner and my not eating during a day, but they are not the same things. The object differs<br />1. A couple is not having sex right at this moment, but we do not call non-sex abstention<br />2. A couple chooses to abstain on those days that are fertile, and not on infertile days. We call that periodic continence or abstaining. The object very clearly differs<br />Another example<br />1. I choose to not eat on Friday for God- I am fasting<br />2. I choose to not eat in order to lose weight- I am dieting.<br />The objects, not merely the intention, are different<br />1. We abstain for a month are two for health reasons or prayer<br />2. We abstain only on fertile days to avoid getting pregnant....is it that absurd that someone, like the dieting/fasting example, might think these are different objects, not just intents?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5717" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do wish we could all smoke together</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5718" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-28T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-28T17:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I just realized what the discussion is. ... I take it back. Have at it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T17:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHAT IS PB saying?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5720" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-08-28T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-08-28T17:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Were I talking to you, Mike, I would make an appeal for just being Mike-nice. (A subset of nice, which is not really nice, but which is also not Mike-not-nice.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He just said: "At least I'm right about TAC not reading a responsible amount of doctrine."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5722" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T17:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which of course he's not right about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T18:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine-- I'll just pretend I believe you so my husband doesn't have to come on here and challenge you to a duel or some such thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T18:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but why the sharp words?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5725" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure it's responsible for him to read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5726" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T18:01:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">so Peregrine, if TAC's founding documents teach heresy, aren't you bound to denounce that to the local ordinary? And if you've already attempted that, how'd that work out for you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5727" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because he's got the dull words handled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - he is now just listing all the things he thinks he's right about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5730" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And PB, you better not ignore what JA just asked you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5731" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">re-crap? I thought it was more word-vomit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5732" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T18:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">seriously Peregrine, I think we can get the email of the local ordinary for you, and I think you're bound in conscience to denounce TAC for public pertinacious heresy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5733" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T18:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so go for it, Peregrine! I'm sure you can't wait to be vindicated at last!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine suffers from digital logorrhea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5735" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, I have a response, but it is getting lost in ad hominem, silliness and JA's critique</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and it's dinner time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5737" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T18:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh you do need to report material heresy, to the one involved; and then if they don't accept fraternal correction, it becomes formal. None of the alums have accepted your fraternal correction, so now you're countenancing formal heresy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5738" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T18:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">i was presuming that you had done the right thing and told TAC about its material heresy as soon as you discovered it; and certainly you've gone on about it to alums on FB for months now. Its become by now quite public, and formal and pertinacious; so walk the walk or quit talking the talk. Call the ordinary, see how that works out for you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5739" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is nothing underhanded about anything I am saying, Peregrine. I have challenged you overtly, and repeatedly - if impatiently. You have engaged in evasion, self-righteousness and flagrant Pharisaical superiority.<br />You've also continued to argue extreme claims to the point of ridiculousness. Either that or you've been dishonest and sophistical in your argumentation.<br />You do not appear to have any concept of the mean. Your Odysseus sails either straight for Charybdis or for Scylla.<br />Can no one teach you anything? Do you already know everything? I have not seen you once say anything like "Wow, I didn't think of that! Cool!" or "I see what you mean now!" or "You know what, I might have been wrong about that!"<br />Do you really believe that you know everything? Do you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5740" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T18:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it would be discipline, Peregrine, not dogma</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5741" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-28T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-28T18:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">you know, distinctions...like the one between physics and metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^The difference there is exactly one meta. Not two metas - one meta.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5743" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but many kinds of meat. I distinguish between pastor and carnitas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bonbon: "but they both come from a pig, therefore they are the same thing" magisterium magisterium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5745" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">MAAAAAGISTEEEEERIUUUUUUUM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^in a braveheart voice?^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, as Wrongaventure draws and quarters me on the gibbet of holistic sacred theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not angry, Peregrine, I am filled with pity for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5749" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes Isak quite:<br />http://energymuse.com/.../2013/08/crystalhealing-1.jpg<br />ENERGYMUSE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am actually laughing right now. . . mostly at Mr. Bonbon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5751" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T18:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am out of kalua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm slacking today on padding this thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5753" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really wish you could see the diatribe John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5754" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What you just said is bullshit, Peregrine. No one has the right to be wrong. Rights only exist because duties to others are prior. Your duty is conformity to the truth. Therefore mere expression of your conscience, right or wrong, formed or unformed, is not a right at all.<br />Concede the point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you are still making unfounded universal claims about what TAC produces. Are you saying that all TAC graduates are alike in this way, or are you saying there's merely a tendency? Let's take this bit by bit. Do the distinction dance with me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T18:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WOW strange statement from the magisterium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5757" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, he said: "Then respect the fact that I live in a free country, and I am free to express my conscience, and my conscience tells me that TAC produces an arrogant alum quite ignorant of much dogmatic truth."<br />I'm saying that's bullshit, and I don't have to respect bullshit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5758" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, we resort to foul language because of poor impulse control</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5759" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-08-28T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-28T18:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf9erulmi_4<br />Or we've seen Lebowski way too many times.<br />Do you have to use so many cuss words?<br />It speaks for itself<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">isak. I inferred it from your prior post. But thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wrong again, you cheeky bugger. Isak, one example of TAC alum, uses colorful language when the force of the point requires it. My legs are fine, thank you very much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5762" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like to think of my swearing as seasoning... like pepper. Otherwise the food of my wisdom is sooo bland</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you know what Peregrine? Better noisome vocalizations than noisome undergoings. Your thoughts are foul, sir.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you provoked the Linda Blair version of Sir Bonbon yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say, did PB ever recant his assertion of heresy a while back?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5766" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No he did not Tim. And I think his clear lack of ability to respond to my objections speaks volumes more than his evasions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">never been better, and you, good Sir Bonbon?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T18:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">INABILITY is the word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5769" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And look at that - he wants me to respect that he is free to express his conscience, because he lives in a free contrary - but he won't respect my use of the word "bullshit" to describe the piles of dung he's heaping on TAC graduates.<br />He's a self-contradicting hypocrite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5770" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T18:38:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guys, guys - I'm sure, given an infinite number of comments, we'll be able to sort this all out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5771" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah it's not like they teach you that at Mass in the campus chapel or anything...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5772" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be a waste of time. The flames would get tired of trying to consume you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5773" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T18:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">A big group of alums accused you of heresy because you quoted something and endorsed it and the thing quoted was, in fact, presented as heresy in the document in which it appeared. Despite the fact that you were participating in the thread at the time, you pretended no one had raised the question and did not even acknowledge its existence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go reflect on what it means to have a "right" to anything, Pope Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5775" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T18:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">writing to Antipater, Aristotle noted: "the more i am by myself, and alone, the fonder I have become of myths."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5776" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I like that so much.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T18:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and he set up life size statues in Stagira to Zeus and Athena, the Saviors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man alive...I could use a beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5779" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T18:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a case would be a start, and some cigars. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5780" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*facepalm*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You missed the point, PB. Go to the chapel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T18:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you did not. I find it difficult to believe you could have forgotten this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Believing one's own made-up versions of the truth is a classic trait of sociopaths.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think pb has a good case Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pseudologia fantastica. I pity you, Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5786" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T18:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because we are seekers of the truth, and that we may be clear, here is what I am speaking of. The image is the accusation, which was repeated to you by different people. The quoted passage is--if I traced the discussion correctly, and if I recall Pater Edmund's citation correctly--part of the formal heresy which Bautain was forced to renounce. To my knowledge, it appears you have not recanted, which is what I am asking.<br />As to the maturity of my questioning, I leave that for others to judge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T18:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"reason without grace serves an admixture of error".....sounds accurate to moi.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stop making brash generalizations about an entire alumni, stop refusing to admit when a good point has been made, stop mocking the intelligence of people on this thread kinder than I, stop announcing how right you are at every opportunity you get, stop avoiding questions, and maybe we can have a conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T18:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund identified heresy...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">paging Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Lack of quality in my argument." Bah. To refute His Holiness The Peregrine, a quality argument is not what's necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T18:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the maturity of Tim's questioning is clear and admirable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-28T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-28T19:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure CC teaches logic which is why I am baffled that PB persists in making generalizations about TAC alumni.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5794" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, more specifically he said you were asserting heresy by citing the quotation favorably. But close enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T19:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think Pater identified heresy....but calling someone a heretic is a different monkey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan - that right there is all I want him to stop, ultimately. It amounts to a form of bigotry and I won't abide it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T19:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I imagine Pater Edmund is sleeping.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5798" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Mike Potemra" data-date="2014-08-28T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Mike Potemra at 2014-08-28T19:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have enjoyed this thread immensely, but the chief takeaway for me has been that my rejection of atheism was perhaps too hasty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">franciscans are busy writing letters to the leaders of the world...this one is all TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5800" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-28T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-28T19:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, I'm tired of hearing the "TACers are arrogant" refrain - pick a different (and more helpful) song to sing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5801" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's currently 1AM where Pater Edmund leaves, so I doubt he'll appear any time soon. The entire train of comments and so on is available above, and it makes itself fairly clear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5802" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think she means the generalization that we are arrogant foul-mouthed jerks. Isak and I are; the rest, not so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5803" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Sorry, Isak.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO SHE DOES NOT MEAN THAT. SHE MEANS STOP CALLING AN ENTIRE ALUMNI ARROGANT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5805" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No offense taken, Tim. PB can say whatever he wants by way of insulting me and it will likely have some truth in it. But most anything good in me has come from my family or from TAC, and I will not allow this barbarian to continue slandering the college.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5806" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I think like any college, some are, some are decidedly not, and most are somewhere in the middle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-28T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-28T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Excuse me? Not all of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5808" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Peregrine. Triangles : three-sided :: TAC alum : arrogant. That's exactly right. Well done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5809" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-28T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(53, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-28T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've met some pretty awful people from Christendom but I don't go around calling all of their alumni awful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I hear that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God help me. God help me. God help us all. This is madness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^I can't even.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one accused you of slandering TAC. They accused you of slandering its graduates. I realize the topic of the thread meanders, but focus is likely for the best. Right now you've been asked about your accusations against all TAC alumni and you've instantly pivoted to another topic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-08-28T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-08-28T19:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v30HUOx6SYk<br />Inspector Clouseau visits Dreyfus at the psychiatric hospital<br />From the 1976 film 'The Pink Panther Strikes Again'<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know very well that's not what we were calling slander, you poor juice box of a man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Well, someone may have accused you of slandering TAC, but it's not what we're discussing now, hence, it's not very relevant, I don't think.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim, I did say "I will not allow this barbarian to continue slandering the college." You are correct to infer that by that I meant its alumni.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5818" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Meanwhile, you still haven't recanted the formally heretical assertion you made, because we mysteriously pivoted from that topic to the arrogance (or lack thereof) of alumni.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-28T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-28T19:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going to go pray for sanity. God help me. Let me know if there's any love to be had here later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I plan on posting some Simpsons clips, so I suspect so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am going to play a board game with my brother. I apologize for preventing you from going to the chapel, PB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5822" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T19:17:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34RlJ0L0xE<br />Monty Python And The Holy Grail - Let's Not Bicker And Argue About Who Killed...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5823" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-28T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-28T19:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only sense in which you are pitiful is in the way that you are persisting in your error.<br />I came out of TAC knowing far more about my Faith than I did when I was a freshman. And that had nothing to do with the lack of my faith formation beforehand - it had everything to do with the education I received there. So you are simply wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5824" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T19:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">please understand this is why you have offended people. when you say we are all arrogant, I think of my wife, who could not deserve that charge less. I am sure it is the same for others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5825" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T19:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I think about it, a program that requires 2-4 classes a day (usually three), is basically a liberal arts program, with a little les literature but with math and science (however well done) and theology packed in, plus greatly bulking up the philosophy, when a HS student looking for a college sees that and goes that's for me, well maybe only the self-confident ones will do that, and that includes those who should be confident and those who are deluded arrogants and those, like myself, who are both arrogant and rightly confident! So I can see why arrogance is not uncommon...it is not that it is produced by the college but rather that of course brighter people have as a danger arrogance.<br />Different types of people have different dangers. Just because being intelligent can lead to arrogance, doesn't mean we shouldn't learn...and TAC probably humbles as many as it puffs up, for just the reason that it is a heavy load for most.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the same will be true of any challenging program</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5827" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Angela Lessard" data-date="2014-08-28T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Angela Lessard at 2014-08-28T19:37:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">One thing that can be said about TACers is that they suffer fools -- at absurd length, if not gladly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5828" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T19:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHAHAHA Angela Lessard - that can no longer be debated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why the beef, pb? Did you apply and not get into tac?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-08-28T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-08-28T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">After the irritation with Peregrine subsides, a sense of boredom replaces it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why does Cdom not teach book 3 of Euclid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why does all math end with book 2?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5833" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T19:44:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">"This thread is a testament to the naive but earnest nature of Thomas Aquinas College graduates everywhere. Reason, Logic, and even Rhetoric sometimes are of no use, people."<br />Except I said that over 5,000 comments ago. What amuses me greatly is how people STILL think the point of this thread is to convert The Peregrine instead of thinking of it more as a virtual smoker's patio.<br />If the Peregrine offends you, well, you're about 5,000 comments and a week late. The Peregrine is Immutable. And this is The Neverending Thread.<br />I think I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel - we are about to leave that cave behind,, Isak Benedict. The Thread self-actualizes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T19:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is tac not a 10 year program covering all literature and theological writings?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why didn't you go to tac?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are a former Canadian, former American elected official... I missed the poet part and theologian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T19:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Disappointing. Universally disappointing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5838" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T20:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, I don't know why anyone gets offended by Sir Bonbon the poet. He's a broken record of an interlocutor. Sometimes, before every goes all whacked-out, he says interesting (if wrong) things. Call him on it, and Bonbon becomes Linda Blair. It happens periodically. Edward could probably figure out the period (I think twice daily - but have no stats to back me up). Then we'll discuss something interesting, and he'll come back all nicey-nice and the recursive thread spirals out again. No worries, the rest of you should just learn to enjoy the spectacle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5839" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T20:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET has become self-aware</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5840" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T20:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going out for Afghan food. does anyone want anything?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5841" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T20:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Afghan fries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5842" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T20:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Afghanis have food?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5843" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-28T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-28T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Afghan burgers, please, heavy on the meat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5844" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">gnawing suspicion: there are many more lurkers than posters on TNET. They reference it and status it, and discuss but nary a post or like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5845" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T20:26:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well many are called, few chosen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5846" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T20:27:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">calling out Marie Cantu for doing this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, almost at 6,000. Seems like just yesterday we were at 3,000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-28T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-28T20:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And 'remiss' according to whose definition, Peregrine? I would be interested in discovering the identity of the person who officially determines exactly how 'Catholic' our theology program is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-28T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-28T20:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am disappointed with your poetry as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5850" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">confessions: the good news is that TNET has taken my mind off a host of troubles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5851" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">confessions: the bad news is that TNET has taken my mind off a host of troubles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WILL IT NEVER BE 6000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">crawl. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">crawl. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">crawl. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I D E C L A R E <br />T H I S <br />T H R E A D<br />D E A D</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">phew! now was that so hard?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5858" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-28T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-28T20:40:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">nice. now the six thousandth comment is "crawl"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5859" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#TNET 10,000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5860" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-28T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-28T20:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have begun to question TNET's genuine desire for truth beauty and goodness.... it all seems like a numbers game to me now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">recursive: toddler stage next</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5862" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T20:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beauty and goodness sometimes needs silliness and frivolity.... discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T20:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope so. I'm in terrible trouble otherwise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5864" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-28T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-28T20:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">is comedy really a species of the ugly... discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5865" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-28T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-28T20:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read in a vocations book once that you shouldn't be a religious if you don't have a sense of humor, because humor is a test of your rationality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5866" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Kevin Miller" data-date="2014-08-28T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Miller at 2014-08-28T20:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is The Thread That Won't Die.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If this thread were an app, Matthew J. Peterson would have had a few calls from Sillycone Valley by now ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-28T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-28T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz-- sorry I ignored all your arguments earlier. I was distracted and now I'm pretty far into my margarita, so maybe tomorrow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5869" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-28T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-28T21:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now that school is starting up again and I have a life again, I regretfully have to abandon following TNET. I read the first 5,000 comments, but alas, my endurance fades. I do, however, fully expect this thread to be alive and well when I finish my Masters degree. So keep on keeping on, everybody.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there. I fixed 6000. Now brood. We'll no more merrymaking. Let talk of procreation and procreating be at end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5871" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T21:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean Robertson: you do not unfollow The Thread. The Thread unfollows you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5872" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T21:30:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe: being far into your margarita is perhaps the only time that arguing here makes sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that must be my problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T21:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is all getting too Matrix-y for me. "MIS-ter Anderson ..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i believe the immovable thread mover has returned to quicken the mostly dead thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5876" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T21:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you guys were all on my case last night because I didn't want a first mover ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5877" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T21:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">unfortunately, the meaningless fourth preseason game is winning in the ever-present battle for my attention. It seems like a lot of the "meat" of the thread (ephemeral though it may be) happens later in the evening. I have to stop sleeping.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael ... which one are you watching? I got too depressed with SC v. Texas A&M and switched over to the Lions - Buffalo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5879" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T21:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bears/Browns halftime. Johnny Football can throw a FUGLY pass Tim)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would watch the BSU Ole Miss game, but no cable</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been saying for weeks: The Browns need to give Connor Shaw a chance. He's way more mature than Johnny Football and a better passer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beats me.... I'm a Bears fan<br />BUFFALO IS GOING DOWN (week one)<br />You hear me Peterson!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(82, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but seriously, there were a few in the first half that were ugly ducks, nose of the football pointing up, wobbly, like it slipped out of his hand. Terrible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would really like someone to show how comedy was a species of the ugly. I don't quite get that one.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5885" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Plus" data-date="2014-08-28T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Plus at 2014-08-28T21:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Schniederjan http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/.../what-if-all-the...<br />What if all the NFL logos smoked weed?<br />With Josh Gordon’s suspension for smok’n dat reefer dominating our newscycle yesterday harder than Ray...<br />KISSINGSUZYKOLBER.UPROXX.COM|BY UPROXX MEDIA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5886" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T21:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . see the rotting corpse at 6000, MB</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5887" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T21:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't receive that, John Ruplinger ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5888" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We may not make it to perfection..... I am so disappointed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5889" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-28T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-28T22:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Nina Rachelle, it has always been a numbers game. Numbers underlie everything. The universe speaks in maths to those that have ears to calculate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5890" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-28T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-28T22:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"we may not make it to perfection." Well, to be fair, the thread seemed to have been faulty pretty shortly out of the gate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-28T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-28T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews this thread is in serious need of a double tap.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T22:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't forget what Marx says in his letter to Engels about the law of transformation of quality into quantity! He derives this from Hegel's Logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The return to Hegel is one of the central leitmotifs of this Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5894" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T22:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it's probably too early for that ... the ghost of Hegel only haunts after midnight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5895" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-28T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-28T22:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The Owl of Minerva" yadda yadda yadda ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5896" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As for the Bills, Michael Beitia: http://www.youtube.com/embed/7gt4StirOzc?autoplay=1<br />Mad TV - Lowered Expectations (Gena)<br />Gena has lowered her expectations Season: 4 Episode #: 4.13 Original Air Date: 1/16/1999<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The bills, Michael Beitia? As for them:<br />http://www.youtube.com/embed/7gt4StirOzc?autoplay=1<br />Mad TV - Lowered Expectations (Gena)<br />Gena has lowered her expectations Season: 4 Episode #: 4.13 Original Air Date: 1/16/1999<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Lowered expectashuunnns"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T22:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Omni agenti propter finem necessaria est cognitio distincta finis, quia agens propter finem agit ex appetitu finis sicut igitur agens naturale agit ex appetitu finis naturalis, sic agens per cognitionem agit ex appetitu per cognitionem; sed agens propter finem et per cognitionem est homo ; igitur necessaria est cognitio sui finis Sed distinctam cognitionem finis non habet homo ex naturalibus."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T22:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do not mock happy fun ball.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5901" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T22:50:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Noli mihi irritare leones, sed opertet quod quis addat oleum camino.<br />Jumping back about 3,000 comments, a question. One that pertains to the "development" of doctrine. Lagrange distinguishes 6 steps in theology<br />1. The positive procedure.<br />2. The analytic procedure.<br />3. The apologetic procedure.<br />4. The manifestative procedure.<br />5. The explicative procedure.<br />6. The illative procedure.<br />It has been bothering me for a few days, but the illative sense, as Lagrange is using it here (syllogistic reasoning from two premises to a third) is what is missing in Newman, and if he is to avoid evolutionism he has to hold that all such development is done in the other 5 steps, probably the explicative (Lagrange helps, "To illustrate: take the sentence, The Word, which was God, was made flesh. Against the Arians, that sentence was thus expressed: The Word, consubstantial with the Father, was made man. This consubstantiality with the Father, whatever some writers say, is much more than a theological conclusion, deduced illatively from a revealed truth. It is a truth identical, only more explicitly stated, with that found in the Prologue of St. John's Gospel.)<br />It would seem Newman's "illative sense" must be doing something like that to avoid evolutionism.<br />But here is the real problem for those of us without Newman's aversion to illative reasoning. Can illative reasoning give us dogma? Now sometimes two premises, both revealed, conclude in a third that is also stated elsewhere in scripture, more or less explicitly. In that case a syllogism does not give us a new truth, but shows the relations of truth. And since revealed it can be considered dogmatic.<br />But say two truths of faith conclude in a third proposition, not revealed itself. While we would have to admit the certitude of that conclusion, would it merely be a theological conclusion, the denial of which could be condemned by the Church as theological error, but not heresy and over which the infallibility of the magisterium only touches because the logical consequent of its denial is a denial of a premise that is revealed. Or do we hold that it is, in fact, formally revealed, but implicitly.<br />If the latter, would we say that the syllogism only is the cause of subjective certitude, but the objective certitude still is based on God who reveals? The reasoning is not but a condition of us recognizing a more particular truth that was revealed in a more universal one? It seems that this is true, and most Thomists think this.<br />Now Lagrange then rejects that a syllogism, wherein one of the premises is of faith, but the other of reason, can be considered formally revealed. He considers them properly theological conclusions, which cannot be dogmatically defined. But it seems to me that the argument above, which he supports, might lend itself to the claim that, at least when the major premise is revealed and the minor premise is by reason, that the conclusion is of faith. Just as revelation presumes a certain context of knowledge, and we have the analytic and explicative procedures for that reason, so too the context of natural knowledge here is merely revealing a more particular truth implicit in the revealed truth.<br />Or does this cease to be de fide, because the objective certitude of the conclusion rests on the objective certitude of the premises, and while only the minor premise is of reason, that is still defective compared to revealed truth?<br />And (maybe I break Kunz's record here), if Lagrange is right, that such cannot be de fide, but only taught infallibly about insofar as the faith inherently presupposes or support such things, then it would seem things like NFP, contraception, abortion, heck most morality cannot be taught as de fide, but only as connected logically to the faith. And hence denial of these doctrines cannot be heresy, except in a extenuated way, the way the denial of the notions of the Trinity may be considered heresy, when one denying them realizes the logical consequent ofthat denial is denial of the trinity, but such denial is in se not heretical.<br />And now I forget where I was going with this.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5902" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:50:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, football is just around the corner:<br />http://youtu.be/gODZzSOelss<br />East/West College Bowl - Key & Peele<br />Meet the flamboyant players of the East/West Collegiate Bowl. New episodes returning Fall 2014 on Comedy...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Michael Beitia V<br />^ Tim Cantu V</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5904" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/rT1nGjGM2p8<br />East/West College Bowl 2 - Key & Peele<br />The best college athletes in the nation from the east and the west gear up for football fans' favorite annual...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No!!! Only 693 words.....<br />O, if this is going to be about football, I must excuse myself....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cognitio autem finis hominibus necessaria est. etiamne Deo?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Watch the videos. They are funny. You will like them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No excuses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5910" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T22:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Big fan of Ozamataz Buckshank all the way back to his days at Stanford, even though The Shank terrorized the Irish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5911" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-28T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-28T22:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The bounty of The Thread overflows, with plenty for each and all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-28T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-28T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Drilling Sound]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T22:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T22:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Malo de lana caprina rixari quam football!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T22:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T22:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[inaudible]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T22:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ita, Beatus Scotus arguit illam opinionem in quod sequitur</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5916" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T22:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey! Speak American!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">laterem crudum lavem scriptu latine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-28T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-28T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beatus SCotus arhuit? vel arguit?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Corrigavi illum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Benjamin Block" data-date="2014-08-28T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Benjamin Block at 2014-08-28T22:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ<br />(10hours) Lamb chop song that never ends<br />BigPhil1982siny brings to you 10 hours of the song that never ends enjoy Comment,Subscribe,Rate. Thank you...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T23:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is one of my favorite old SNL sketches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-28T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-28T23:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZKpq5QfDE<br />The Dana Carvey Show Minisodes - Episode 8: Part 2<br />Watch hundreds of free full-length streaming movies and...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to answer Joshua, I cannot. But it is an interesting question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5924" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">id est, correxi illum ... Cognitio latinae mea non includit declensiones vel conjugationes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5925" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-28T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-28T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bing bing altameae voglogo huisimon hola</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">scriptu? O magister latinitatis!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Quia non potest certitudinaliter et determinate sciri finis hominis nisi ex actibus aliquibus eius ordinatis ad talem finem; sed nullum actum percipimus hic quo potentiae nostrae natae sunt pertingere et attingere substantiam separatam in se; igitur per nullum actum in nobis possumus arguere potentiam intellectivam ordinatam ad intelligendum finem in se."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND interesting about the illative sense which Newman derides in the chapter by that name.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5929" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Non intelligo sensum illi quod Ioshua dixit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5930" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-08-28T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-08-28T23:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is everyone suddenly speaking Mexican?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5931" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quia sumus maior quam gentibus </p>
</li>
<li id="post_5932" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, it seems to me that if both premises are de fide, the conclusion is de fide (if all the other conditions of a valid demonstration are met) as well because syllogism preserves truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"quam" necessarius non est: 'maiores gentibus' vel 'maiores quam gentes", o maior.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, perhaps it doesn't preserve certitude in the required way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5935" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sum homo mediorum aetatium, utor "quam".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Latina ecclesiae est latina mihi</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i was hoping to discuss Hamlet; midnight approaches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">its Mexican, pure and undiluted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, referring to an earlier comment, my guess is you read Lenin on motion because the marxists (and possibly McTaggart) provide the only alternative non-circular account of motion. Of course, it relies on a denial of the law of contradiction, but I don't think it's exactly a strawman.<br />Descartes's definition of motion, "a transferrence from one locatliy to another" vel huiusmodi, for example, doesn't even begin to hold up. (Although, to be fair he seems to think it is something self-evident and indefinable).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We, however, didn't read Lenin on motion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">rereading that, Joshua, it seems all conclusions from revealed premises are certain, but as to the mixed less so though they should be held if taught. But is the teaching on NFP not both Scriptural and known from natural law as well as known from the Fathers (though perhaps mixed in its premises idk). . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . but the teaching is only de fide and not infallible, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-28T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-28T23:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think those mean the same thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-28T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-28T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh. I guess that makes sense. And what i said doesn't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LATIN</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um - a fly just flew into my beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5947" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that's not cool, man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the Newman argument about development of doctrine or something else?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, back in the day there was a dustup about the DOD.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5950" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">People said Newman was a MODERNIST</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was it good beer, Peterson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably better than my Yuengling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5953" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Infallible is not coextensive with de fide, but de fide is always infallible (that is when the Church solemnly teaches X to be de fide, that is infallible, as it means it belongs to the deposit of the faith.)<br />Or rather, if we wish to be more exact, if something is taught as de fide divina it is taught as belonging to revelation. But certain things are taught infallibly that are held de fide ecclesiatica. Such are dogmatic facts and propositions of reason necessarily true through connection with the faith. Hence that Vatican I was a Council, that Pius XII was pope are dogmatic facts, and we hold these as "infallible truths" because of an historical connection to the faith or rather the definitions of faith given by these. Likewise, e.g., the soul is the form of the body is taught infallibly by the truth, not as being part of the deposit of faith, but as a truth, knowable by reason, that is logically connected to the faith so that deny it logically imperils holding a proposition that is revealed. We can be said to hold these truths, that are infallibly taught by historical or logical connection, as de fide ecclesiatica. The canonization of saints, in infallible, would be similar. Denial would not, then, be heresy, necessarily entailing a loss of the virtue of faith, unless one at the same denied it knowing the logical or historical connection, and thus denying a proposition of the faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like yuengling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gross ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was talking with a friend recently that if Newman's basic argument about the structure of a revealed religion is correct, it can be used as an argument against other revealed religions which lack central authorities who are appointed for authoritative, infallible interpretation (or *whatever* the term I should be using is).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5957" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_5958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">... just because</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5959" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_5960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now if you agree with Lagrange that a third proposition, from premises both de fide divina, can also be defined de fide divina, holding that the syllogism is only a condition of its discovery, whereas the cause ofits truth and knowability is God who reveals, why can't we say the same of a syllogism where the major premise is de fide divina, but the minor premise is know through reason, that its conclusion is also de fide divina, with the minor premise being analogous to, say, the natural knowledge used in the explicative part of theology.<br />By illative I meaning discursive reasoning, reasoning that truly leads from one thing to another proposition. Not a restatement put more explicitly, but a new proposition that follows logically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that looks like good beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can re-admit you ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5963" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re Newman - Joshua Kenz made clear he was not a Thomist by education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">San Diego brew. Not bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5965" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure about that, because the principle by which one knows the minor premise isn't divine faith: in the case of two de fide premises, all the principles of the conclusion are known by the divine light.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Boyer, did the ancient Jewish religion have an infallible authority? I suppose Aquinas implies Caiphas spoke infallibly (cf about 2500 comments ago when I quoted the Quodlibetal and canonization....but I don't think that was a nomal part of his office</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But for run of mill beer I have soft spot for yuengling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5968" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, Natty Boh!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Valerie Acors" data-date="2014-08-29T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Valerie Acors at 2014-08-29T00:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thornburg “When Pride and a Little Scratching Pen Have Dried and Split the Hearts of Men”: The Impoverishment of Human Knowledge and the Role of Beauty in Science" I went to the wrong school. This makes me want to go back, seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5970" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, at the risk of being obtuse, could I not also claim then that when I say Christ was one Person, two natures, that that is only a theological conclusion, not de fide, because the concept of person is not known by divine light?<br />I guess I am trying to discover the line between where reason help illuminate what is revealed, as opposed to reason being illuminated by faith. It seems clear to me if the major premise is of reason, but the minor of faith, it is not de fide divina, because then it amounts to divine revelation bringing out a further truth implicit in natural knowledge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-08-29T00:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Drank rice cream ale home brew from a Cappuchin friar tonight. So, I kind of win.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that's relevant, because any error in concepts derives from errors in assertions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">scratch that, I'm having trouble formulating my response.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5974" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Valerie Acors" data-date="2014-08-29T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Valerie Acors at 2014-08-29T00:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thornburg Seriously, I'm not even done reading them. Each one is better than the last. As my late grandmother would say in Italian*waving one arm in an arc to land in the position of holding her head* "Mannaggia".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I want to say that the divine light always presupposes that the illumined intellect has concepts to be "seen together" under the influence of that light. When we say that something is known "de fide" we're primarily pointing to the conjunctions of concepts asserted under the influence of the divine light rather than stating something about the concepts one is using.<br />So your objection doesn't hold, because it operates at a level presupposed to both matters of revelation and matters of reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I see illumination one more time...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, what I called de fide divina versus de fide ecclesiatica, I believe is referred to in more recent documents as de fide credenda or de fide tenenda respectively</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it is pressupose to both. It involves judgment, not mere simple apprehension. And judgment can be true or false. Thus one affirms the judgment that the concept of person is predicated of Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5979" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Also, the principles of philosophy are known by a distinct knowledge when used as principles of theology.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to address one final thing to the Troglodyte Pope Peregrine. He has criticized the color of my language, generalized an attribution of foul words to all TAC alum, and stated more than once that he does not like vulgarities hurled his way.<br />Well, here he is, 6 months ago, calling a woman a "Raging Bitch:" http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/.../wasinger.../<br />Looks like the girls on this thread got off lightly with your previous mild insults. Maybe this Catherine Stone McNickle deserved that name. Maybe she didn't. I doubt she did, but that doesn't matter. Admit it Weinberg. You're fine with strong language as long as YOU do it.<br />Hypocrite.<br />Wasinger Campaign Goes Sexist<br />This type of language has no place in the Republican Party of Virginia, in political discourse, and deserves much...<br />VIRGINIAVIRTUCON.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now go away. Poet, my foot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, just wow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5983" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Valerie Acors" data-date="2014-08-29T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Valerie Acors at 2014-08-29T00:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thornburg Is there some way to access the complete library of theses? I want to see if anybody has done anything like "Neural Plasticity of multiple modality activity and the metaphysical benefits of the rosary (ie Mary's gift to us)"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5984" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:30:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can physicallygo to TAC and see with Viltus will let you dig through old theses....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5985" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We teach theology as the Church tells us to teach it, with St. Thomas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5986" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley, FWIW most Thomists agree with you. A minority think any syllogism that has a premise that is de fide, even if the other is not, concludes in a de fide proposition. While a few hold that this is only true if the major premise it.<br />I tried googling to find some of these arguments but the only hits I got were of myself talking about the same question 2 years ago elsewhere!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5987" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T00:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB, besides trolling, why do you care soooooooooooo much?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T00:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Valerie Acors Thornburg: there should be such a thing. I think now one has to ask college and they get permission from author? Not sure,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5989" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They actually ask seniors to sign a statement now giving them permission to distribute their thesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're Catholics. We don't need the bible, and we don't need ... oh, wait ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Huh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5992" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-29T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-29T00:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I realize this is foolhardy, given that my reading of The Neverending Thread is at like 8%, but I have to ask: is the sinister implication of the Immaculate Conception not appearing thematically in the curriculum supposed to be that the founders, etc. somehow regret that dogma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5993" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(satire)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5994" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T00:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Comstock isn't much good. But PB's comments there are not right. He really should be blocked, Matthew. Thanks, Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5995" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have Charles de Koninck to teach us about the Immaculate Conception. Go to. Sirrah!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5996" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record, everyone, tonight in Boise a rehabbing first baseman (Jesus Montero) for Seattle (playing for the Everett Aquasox) reportedly took a bat into the stands to go after a scout after getting into it verbally with said scout. Baseball is the greatest sport of all time. I'm sure Mr. Montero will fit right in here when he is banned from baseball.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5997" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It may be that no one other than me cares about this, but I find it completely amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The man is a professional troll, or sock puppet: http://thebullelephant.com/wasinger-campaign-opens-with.../<br />"Mr. Weinberg (if that is indeed who he is) has spread the “research” on Comstock using a number of different identities. The Bull Elephant has recorded at least six different identities being used by Mr. Weinberg, all with different email addresses."<br />Wasinger Campaign Opens With Amateurish Smearing of Comstock - The...<br />THEBULLELEPHANT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_5999" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is awesome, Tim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6000" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T00:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was at Comerica Park last night watching the Tigers play the Yankees. I do love baseball.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6001" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, please block Peregrine Bonaventure from The Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6002" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, the medieval curriculum looked like this:<br />- 6 years of philosophical training, starting around 15 (which would bring the student to 21, the approximate age of a TAC graduate)<br />- in the seventh year the student could either enter the Theology faculty or Medicine, Canon Law or Civil Law and listen to lectures there for another seven years (~ 28)<br />- After that, two years running through the Sentences with beginners. (~30)<br />- Then one on the Sentences (~31)<br />- Then two years of biblical studies (~33)<br />- Then one could participate in the disputes under a master<br />- a year later (~34), one delivered one's initial lecture (For example, Bonaventure's De Reductione Artium ad Theologiam)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Notice, however, that you didn't even begin to study theology until after the time at which most students graduate from TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6004" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">(All this from Dr. Noone at CUA)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6005" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I'm saying is that it might be inappropriate for any theology to be taught to students at that age... after all, look what happens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6006" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to know more about the campaign thing, actually, I missed that before dropping my little baseball anecdote in (which is, admittedly, hilarious.)<br />Are you the same Scott Weinberg?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6007" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The guy pictured here looks similar: http://disqus.com/disqus_hcw89l3s7L/<br />Disqus – Scott Weinberg<br />Disqus is a global comment system that improves discussion on websites and connects conversations across the web.<br />DISQUS.COM<br />August 29 at 12:45am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley And here: http://thebullelephant.com/wasinger-campaign-calls.../<br />Wasinger Campaign Calls Barbara Comstock "Raging Bitch": UPDATED - The Bull...<br />THEBULLELEPHANT.COM<br />August 29 at 12:46am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Katherine Gardner PB, the 'like' gesture is to be taken as an affirmative? That's a bit wide of the mark to engage seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the same entity behind the profile, whoever he is. Like I said thousands of comments ago, I don't trust him. Please block him, Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I second.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6010" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(much as I sort of want to keep him around for entertainment, I think Isak is right. A rational person in this situation would issue a denial when confronted with evidence that one had acted atrociously and unethically. Or at least claim mistaken identity.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6011" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're a liar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6012" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T00:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because I'm playing the role of Queen of Random on this thread, I just want to say that I can't wait until it hits 6,666 replies. That's all. Carry on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6013" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, it certainly is Scott Weinerg.<br />https://www.facebook.com/scott.weinberg.16/photos<br />One of those photos, a wedding one, is the same as the avatar in the Twitter screenshot here: http://thebullelephant.com/wp.../uploads/2014/02/raging.jpg</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, you are. I've found all your profiles under various names - twitter, blogs, whatever - and it's you. You're a blowhard and a liar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We cannot trust anything you say and cannot engage a sociopath in conversation. Get out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6016" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless Peregrine has the habit of stilling photos from this Scott Weinberg fellow....which would be to admit to another unethical behavior</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6017" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(221, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg, Christendom College grad who looks remarkably like PB and also remarkably like the person who commented on those articles relating to the 10th VA campaign.<br />http://warrencountyreport.com/.../south_river_and_the...<br />Warren County Report: South River and the Hatch Act<br />« Enchanted Dragon Mirror Maze a roaring good time |...<br />WARRENCOUNTYREPORT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is in the habit of maintaining multiple social media profiles. Get out, Bonaventure. Your behavior disgusts me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Drag your stinking, rotting, lying carcass away from here, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you go to the bull elephant link (http://thebullelephant.com/wasinger-campaign-opens-with.../) the Jonathan Weinberg who calls Ms. McNickle nasty names has a profile picture which is clearly identical to the one I posted above in the Warren County Report link.<br />Wasinger Campaign Opens With Amateurish Smearing of Comstock - The...<br />THEBULLELEPHANT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">excuse me: not identical, but clearly the same person regardless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless Scott has an erstwhile evil twin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6023" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is unbelievable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6024" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T00:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously wondering now if PB is satire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6025" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T00:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well Pegegrine, since you are not Scott, but have stolen pictures of his family and his profile pic, I am reporting you to Facebook.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB, the profile which was posted above uses a thumbnail of you and your children which you used on your Peregrine profile until a couple days ago. So are you stealing Scott's picture, or vice versa?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T00:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(If so, it's really, really appalling satire.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6028" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, also, the Scott Weinberg posted above uses the exact same profile picture you currently use, minus your eye blacking. Not appears to be the same person. The same picture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T00:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, what is to be done about this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6030" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=655390844538303&set=a.107146222696104.10649.100002021811264&type=1&theater<br />August 29 at 12:59am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1437215199863856...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6031" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T00:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, also appearing on that Scott Weinberg profile? Your profile picture that appears under Jonathan Weinberg.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6032" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T00:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical photo, different profiles</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6033" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feel free to delete or privatize that profile, but I have screenshotted everything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stop yammering about dogma and admit you're a lying sociopath.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6035" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine: you honestly can't expect us to seriously answer you when you are clearly using multiple profiles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6036" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T01:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If he's blocked i call dibs on his post count for having been branded heretic and blocked by him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are a liar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6038" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guys, I think he thinks TACers are not only arrogant but stupid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, you're using someone elses photo?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's obvious that your current profile photo just has a little black thing drawn on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6041" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:01:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait - the man who spawned 6,000 plus comments on this thread via troll transcended to Dragon Level trolling is a professional?<br />And you guys are shocked and surprised at this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This has been nothing but amusement for him all along. We cannot take anything he says about the Catholic faith remotely seriously as long as this ridiculous deception continues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good work googling though - should have been done long ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6044" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I'm not shocked or surprised. This is typical behavior of trolls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The game is up, asshole. Knock it off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6046" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here are some of the profile pictures of Scott Weinberg. Do they look familiar?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6047" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:03:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you think theology is memorizing a list of dogma (and Ott, e.g., is just one attempt...there is no official list), you are a blathering idiot.<br />I feel sad for your family....to have a father/husband that has nothing better to do than to call women raging bitches, make fake accounts, lie and slander, must be trying....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6048" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Yes, they are crudely copied and pasted together, but anyone can go see them.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You won't get me mad again, Peregrine. I stand by my former statement. I feel nothing but pity for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6050" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott/Peregrine - whoever you are - you're really doing your alma mater a huge disservice by misleading people. And it's completely undermining your arguments. No one's going to seriously entertain arguments from someone who is clearly trolling. But thanks for the relative entertainment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6051" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the most fun I've had in ages, and the only thing muting it is what Joshua Kenz posted above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T01:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, i object to the implication that my posts are dragon spawn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6053" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, why are you using Scott Weinberg's photos? Or is it he who is using your photos?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6054" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In this way [the Teacher] likened unto blind men very many of those who boast that they have a knowledge of theology. “For almost all who give themselves to the study of theology spend time with certain positive traditions and their forms; and when they know how to speak as do the others whom they have set up as their instructors, they think that they are theologians. They do not know that they are ignorant of that ‘inaccessible Light in whom there is no darkness.’ <br />—Nicholas of Cusa, Apologia doctae ignorantiae</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've just reported this brainless waste of space. I urge you all to do the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6056" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samuel A Schmitt, you're friends with both of this person's profiles. Can you bring any clarity to the insanity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have too...if he is Scott Weinberg, he has violated FB by having multiple accounts. If not, he has violated intellectual property</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6058" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Insignificant questions"? Someone is using your photo to call women raging bitches and you think it's insignificant? Dear me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6059" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is all of them, in principiis suis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6060" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(56, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and the answer is that I didn't memorize any doctrines or dogmas, because I, unlike the other people here, was a truly, truly terrible student.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(that part is not sarcastic; deadly serious, on the house.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6062" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim - whatever you did on your own time, you were a joy to have in freshman section.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6063" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ugh, freshman section were some great times. I remember you using your laptop to play the imperial march before I did the death star prop. Stupid fun, but honest; like me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shut your mouth Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim - and math puns.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6066" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We didn't play the imperial march. I don't think Baer would have been down with that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, I already told you; I didn't study anything at TAC! We must stop doing this dance, you and i.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6068" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:12:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't ever let The Immutable Peregrine make you angry, peoples. I've tried to suggest ignoring the madness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I could have had Tim in section. I would have been immensely entertained.<br />But I had Victor Vincent, Daniel Fleury, Earl Williams, and a flurry of others whose personalities were about as compatible as oil and water. Made for some amazing discussions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it really possible to just collectively ignore this charlatan?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6071" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, it would be, but as I said, I'm nearly completely serious. It's in the house; part of my charm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's called the block function.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6073" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:13:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are people really still being surprised by the troll? He's obviously a pro internet bullshitter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew - but did you know the madness went this far?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6075" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clearly, he's full of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's keeping the thread going etc. etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6077" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:13:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look, you people, lost in ALL OF THIS is the fact that a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER took a BASEBALL BAT into the STANDS OF A MINOR LEAGUE GAME over an ARGUMENT WITH A SCOUT.<br />I'm on the verge of peeved at you all for making me almost forget this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6078" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've watched it go this far in disbelief.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually gave you an answer,<br />Tu, cacans, ejicet merdam ex ore. Redde tuo loco</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6080" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T01:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess that quote might have been at Samantha after all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eh, I have no shame.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6082" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Boyer, I made the mistake of unblocking in order to report him...FB won't let me reblock him for 48 hrs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, rather, belief. The Peregrine has never shown any indication of the possibility of change.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6084" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(209, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been looking in my gif folder for the summation of this thread. Good news; I found it! http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ruu2vc&s=5#.VAAMdvldXoE<br />Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting<br />Tinypic™ is a photo and video sharing service that allows...<br />TINYPIC.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, if you say one more insulting word to a woman, you will ensure my fist in your teeth if we ever meet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6086" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, this just got a lot more pleasant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I consider what I said more of a sarcastic shout in the street</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim, this makes me sorry I missed Olberman tonight. I'm sure he had a lot of fun with that one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I won't follow your mistake Mr. Kenz. Once blocked, it stays that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6090" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it literally just happened, though, Daniel, so you should be able to catch it on his next show.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6091" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Further, it makes the responses to a non-existent entity more amusing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6092" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine - do you act like this around my brother?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6093" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So my disbelief is mainly in people's naive belief that meaningful dialogue of some kind is possible after the provocative questions are asked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6094" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">lololol wheeeeeeeeeeee</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6095" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Peterson, I think I stopped believing in meaningful dialogue about 1400 replies ago. Now, I'm just enjoying poking the bear a little.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, God bless us, every one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6097" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">you all ignored my gif so here is Matthew J. Peterson in front of his computer right now after what he has created. http://stream1.gifsoup.com/.../animatedgifs1/1308171_o.gif<br />STREAM1.GIFSOUP.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6098" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know what, the number is 496...we study 496 dogmas...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we collectively ignore this Peregrine, this wart on the ass of The Never-Ending Thread? Personally I'm of the opinion it needs to be lanced.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6100" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, why do you deny the holy thrinity? Whence came liberal education? NFP! 2737492</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6101" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greg Benedict, bro-in-law: you are a professional psychologist - please diagnose all of us and this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I like this guy's name.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6103" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, only a mass blocking will do that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6104" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:20:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't just block him, try trolling back that's a much funner idea</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6105" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T01:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is Scott (Peregrine) lying? We know is it him. He was in my class (and 3 others above and below me). He came from Vancouver Island at the time (so he is Canadian originally). He never did make it at TAC. I don't believe he got past sophomore year -- 4 times. He admitted to that 4000 comments ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6106" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm tired of the counter-troll. This is why blog admins have a ban hammer....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6107" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Teach me your ways, Andrew. How does one go about this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6108" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw, absolutely the best idea yet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6109" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Troll the troll you trolled you. Yes. This is the door through which one can enter meta-land.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6110" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, I am with Isak...and I should have remained as I was, oh 5500 comments ago...I had blocked him before my first post....I should have reported and then blocked. I urge everyone nto do that...report, and then block....and then I shall be the only one who can see him, and it will be easier to ignore him...that way I alone should suffer....it is a hard burden, but I am willing to do it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6111" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Frodo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6112" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T01:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well. It is fun to watch Michael Beitia handle him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hate for you to be alone in your pain, Josh. I will stand with you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6114" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, you are a Christ figure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6115" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"><---Samwise Gamgee</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6116" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh Mr. Frodo. Oh Sam.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6117" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many trolls does it take to get TAC grads to write thousands of comments?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFNycPd-tH4<br />Mr. Frodo<br />Frodo Frodo Mr. Frodo :D Sequel to Sam, Sam, Sam!! Gets really annoying xD<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6119" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">One. One Thread Dragon. And this - this is his hoard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was Pope Peregrine the Pinhead not the only troll?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6121" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, answer me this why do you place the study of economics in front of the study of mathematics? Why are you misogynist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ahhh. I think I see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, you never answered any questions about your educational</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6124" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine (aka Smaug)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6125" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guys, Vandy is playing Temple right now and this is going to be the Vandy play of the game as things stand right now: http://www.sbnation.com/.../vanderbilt-escapes-jersey...<br />Vanderbilt escapes jersey timeout penalty by showing email to ref<br />Today in fun with NCAA rules ...<br />SBNATION.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6126" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw, you should ask him why the Pope wears white after labor day. That goes against dogmas of style.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6127" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, we all trolled him back, and were reverse trolled in turn.<br />I admire his clarity of purpose and his discipline is impeccable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6128" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't like liars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6129" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T01:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, you might want to see this ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6130" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not a surprise he's in politics. His message discipline is perfect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6131" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want his hide nailed to my mantel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6132" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Okay Sir Anthony</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6133" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not have sex with that woman...I mean with metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6134" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Troll chic. The under-the-bridge decor is all the rage in the big cities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6135" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am just wondering why Pairgin has not answered my question? It really is quite simple he did not enumerate all the Doblez of his education which is necessary for holy mother</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6136" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeats later he gets his revenge upon TAC...on the Book of Faces with over a year of trolling. It's amazing. And his message never changed. I find it remarkable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I claim the right to the troll hide</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Adrw, are you really expecting to get a serious answer from this man, youth, whatever?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6139" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ya know, if Matthew blocked him, PB couldn't see this post anymore. I don't think. But that might delete all his comments and hurt the overall comment number. AND NUMBERS MATTER. Because Descartes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6140" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man, this is great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6141" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Peregrine before you answer my question about church dogma first you must answer me how many politicians does it take to pylon a stupid? How can you write up home without knowing reality!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6142" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we're getting under his skin. His grammar's suffering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6143" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, shit, if they wanted him in CONGRESS, he must be a great man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6144" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, I apologize for mistaking your identity. Clearly my real issue was with Scott Weinberg. I don't know how I made that mistake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will tune in tomorrow night, Tim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6146" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">People give him a chance to answer my questions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Friday night is always his best show anyway.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gee, more poetry. I can hardly wait.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6149" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, there's always time to answer the quesiton.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's facebook.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">he hasnt answered nary a question in 6000 plus comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6152" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:31:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">How could I block The Peregrine? He is what he is. Without him, like Joker to Batman, there is no Thread!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6153" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim, please don't say words like "shit." It offends The Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6154" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Time... time... what care I for time? Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.<br />Apologies, Groucho.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6155" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I ask is one him simple question and he yells at me his school is full of arrogant jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm laughing so hard I can hardly breathe...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.kickstarter.com/.../the-blessed-book-of.../posts<br />The Blessed Book of Beasts<br />KICKSTARTER.COM<br />August 29 at 1:31am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Isak Benedict Paraprosdokian phrase, Tim! I just taught my rhetoric students using that very example the other day!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a paper bag, Megan</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't hyperventilate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, why is your poetry so didactic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6161" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T01:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Notice on that kickstarter, his kickstarter name is "John Scott" but it links to this "Peregrine Bonaventure" account.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, why is your poetry so BAD?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6163" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Blessed Book of Beasts should include a Thread Dragon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6164" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Notice how quickly peregrine leaves for ass and very simple questions that he cannot answer is because he doesn't have the answers because his school is fundamentally flawed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6165" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love the idea of a new bestiary. And politics is rough, and I can understand wanting to get out and write such a thing and turn a new leaf.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Beasts.../dp/0970302703<br />Blessed Beasts A Blessed Bestiary in Verse<br />A bestiary is a literary collection of animals, each one of which conveys a practical lesson or a moral virtue....<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6167" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T01:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If blocked the thread might grow at a leisurely pace. Think of PB as the start up troll but you need to think long term.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6168" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, if it turns out that Scott suffers from multiple personality disorder I'm going to feel really really horrible about this whole thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6169" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the naive idea that reason, logic, and dialogue will lead anywhere in this situation is helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6170" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I care about at this point is my troll hide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So sarcasm, snark, and insults then? The finest rhetorical tropes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6172" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Negation of the negation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems so cold and heartless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will make troll hide boots and a funny hat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like leaving your wife of 40 for two 20s after she helped you to make it through to prime time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The essence of the world spirit is silliness she's on the way to respond to a troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6177" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw is en fuego<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6178" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">World Spirit Networking is seeing a real spike in global troll hide prices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6179" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T01:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So wait-- some of you didn't know who he really was? That's why I refused to call him Peregrine and not add Scott. We really need a preface to this thread (although I am opposed to prefaces in general)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sarcasm, snark, & silliness are the only ways to respond to troll logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We knew he was Scott, but we didn't know what all Scott got up to in his spare time/congressional campaigning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6182" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T01:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh. Are Canadians allowed to do that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6183" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody - I knew Peregrine Bonaventure was a pseudonym, but I had no idea what a pro this magnificent bastard was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6184" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We need a Gloss!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6185" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's a sadder version of Anthony Wiener. And Peregrine Bonaventure is his version of Carlos Danger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And commentaries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only in non-Presidential years, I think. It's in the amendment about the right to privacy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And an Index! Several Indices!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John wins today. Well done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6190" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T01:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And post-it notes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6191" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger writes The Thread's Pascendi</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6192" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to thank the TNET Academy...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6193" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still want to see The Thread printed out on an endless roll of paper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6194" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund writes its Syllabus [of Errors]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just want this to get to 6,666....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6196" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:40:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will write an apology to all of our spouses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6197" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T01:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">KEEP YOUR PET TROLL then. But he is going to turn you all into trolls. It happened before. YOU have been WARNED.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6198" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are very proud of you all over here at World Spirit Networking. Please step right this way towards the door marked "Labyrinth of Mirrors."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6199" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife went to bed almost an hour ago. Just a few more posts....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6200" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim - do you remember when I played the World Spirit for the Trivial/Quadrivial Pursuit games, and introduced the line of philosophers while wearing Kevin Kasson's pimp hat?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6201" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T01:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES. what a ludicrous dream undergrad was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a prayer for The Peregrine before bed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6203" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T01:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good night everyone congratulations on reaching 19000 post</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6204" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T01:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok. bed. see all you crazies tomorrow. And if any of yall are ever in Houston, hit me up and we can go drink.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6205" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:50:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, if Tim can't say shit in English, maybe he could do as I did and say it in Latin (whle another post of mine used more Latin idioms, I think the one referring to Scott as "cacans, ejicit merdam..." is my finest vulgarity)<br />Or as St. Paul....who used the Greek word for it in the bible!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6206" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I'm wide awake, unfortunately. Maybe now I can finally go back to convincing Pater Edmund of the worth of The Great Gatsby! I also really want to hear about his dissertation on DFW.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Til the morrow, when hopefully we'll have some video of Jesus Montero taking that bat into the stands to go after the Mariners' scout.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh - brilliant. Brilliant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6209" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T01:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">By all means,in any language, but pray mercy and grace for all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DFW=David Foster Wallace?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We will answer for every idle word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel - yes, quite. I'm a big fan, apparently so is Pater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A friend of mine was telling me I should read Infinite Jest ... I'll get to that someday.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6214" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read "Brief Interviews" when I was living in D.C., and enjoyed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6215" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I usually try to know someone better before I recommend it, but that's because I'm an elitist. It's my favorite novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6216" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked Brief Interviews. My favorite was Tri-Stan: I Sold Sissee Nar To Ecko!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T01:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right now, I guess, the novel I would put up there would be Iris Murdoch's A Severed Head. But that's a discussion for another time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6218" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T01:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε καὶ ἡγοῦμαι πάντα ζημίαν εἶναι διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον τῆς γνώσεως Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ κυρίου μου, διὃν τὰ πάντα ἐζημιώθην, καὶ ἡγοῦμαι σκύβαλα, ἵνα Χριστὸν κερδήσω<br />And I count all things to be but loss for the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but as shit, that I may gain Christ: (Phillipians 3:8)<br />ETA: The Greek is σκύβαλα. It is the Greek vulgarity for feces, not the polite term for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6219" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T02:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe Scott blocked me because i am good friends with someone who ran against weninger and Comstock. That makes more sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6220" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T01:58:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">WOAH. I obviously missed a meeting or two.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6221" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T01:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6222" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T01:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Welcome back Sam. Scott's been outed. I've claimed his hide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's on first?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Sam and anyone just joining us:<br />"I would like to address one final thing to the Troglodyte Pope Peregrine. He has criticized the color of my language, generalized an attribution of foul words to all TAC alum, and stated more than once that he does not like vulgarities hurled his way.<br />Well, here he is, 6 months ago, calling a woman a "Raging Bitch:" http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/.../wasinger.../<br />Looks like the girls on this thread got off lightly with your previous mild insults. Maybe this Catherine Stone McNickle deserved that name. Maybe she didn't. I doubt she did, but that doesn't matter. Admit it Weinberg. You're fine with strong language as long as YOU do it.<br />Hypocrite."<br />Wasinger Campaign Goes Sexist<br />This type of language has no place in the Republican Party of Virginia, in political discourse, and deserves much...<br />VIRGINIAVIRTUCON.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">After that everyone found all his other social media profiles with the same pictures, et cetera.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6226" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But now we are in love with him and want to have his babies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6227" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine, I would like to sire your progeny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6228" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, Re: 500 comments ago.<br />How am I a troll?!?!<br />Samantha. Sorry. I had to go. Familial duties, and what not. <br />Anyway, if still wanted I can bring texts to bear about the whole NFP thing. I really am not sure about it, but I am disposed to a certain opinion that seems to be in consonance with Scripture and the Tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Callistos can live on my couch, Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6230" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T02:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are some great deliverance prayers on this site. Once this thread hits 6666, pick one to pray and go to bed! https://www.catholicwarriors.com/pages/warfare_prayers.htm<br />Spiritual Warfare & Deliverance - English Prayers<br />Spiritual Warfare & Deliverance Prayers - Catholic Resources to Break Free from Demonic attack. More Information about deliverance...<br />CATHOLICWARRIORS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6231" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T02:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And pray for Peregrine Scottie too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am just waking up here in Austria.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T02:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait one hot second, did this thread take puritanical turn? Fuck that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine seriously, I was wondering why your poetry is so didactic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6235" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T02:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe Sam Rocha could add a song to the thread. We haven't had a musical interlude for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will watch over TNET while you all sleep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6237" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think this is likely the least Puritanical thread ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, do you need to be caught up?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6239" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, the thread does not turn. It is becoming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am doing so, slowly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6241" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw that The Troll was insulting women again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6242" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was the thing that made me lose my temper last time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6243" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T02:07:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">A soother, from Late to Love: https://soundcloud.com/wiseblood-records/04-rest-in-you<br />4. Rest in You<br />SOUNDCLOUD.COM|BY WISEBLOOD-RECORDS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T02:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair points, outrage retracted. Always already becoming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T02:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the metaphysical question whether Peregrine is real or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6246" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T02:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks Sam. St Augustine, pray for us!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice song, Sam!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6248" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All too real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thx.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6250" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:10:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, TNET essentially = facebook for me, now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6251" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, the accusations of trollery had to do with your tactic of releasing a couple firebombs in the thread and then disappearing for the next 500 comments or so . . . but it was mostly a joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6252" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:10:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has replaced my news feed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6253" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T02:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey real quick does anyone know what kind of metal I need to make a needle strong enough to sew this stuff? Working on a troll hide jockstrap at the moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6254" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And since I am friends with a bunch of my former high school students there is substantially more coherency.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, well at least it got a conversation going!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6256" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, maybe tungsten?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And showed Scott to be a misogynistic troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In addition to other things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But maybe politics is safer than sex.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">...to talk about, that is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6261" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, you might be interested in this http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/Scotus%20-%20Vat%2016.pdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who translated the passage left in Latin in Augustine sophomore year...in front of the class?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">heh, heh. Joshua, I hadn't heard that anyone had done that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6264" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was the most counter-productive attempt to hide the meaning of a passage I've ever seen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a very mild passage, if I remember correctly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine was always very discreet with language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6267" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well if you read the rest carefully, it was essentially a summation...I guess a sprinkling is fine, but all in one place is too much</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it was the least mild Augustine ever was on the subject, and crossed the line for those Victorians</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Augustine was so bawdy!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6270" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re. earlier things:<br />CASE 1. PLACE 1. Super Sent., lib. 1 q. 1 a. 3 qc. 2 arg. 3. Praeterea, in omni scientia acquiritur aliquis habitus per rationes inductas. Sed in hac doctrina non acquiritur aliquis habitus: quia fides, cui tota doctrina haec innititur, non est habitus acquisitus, sed infusus. Ergo non est scientia.<br />CASE 2. PLACE 2. Super Sent., lib. 1 q. 1 a. 3 qc. 2 ad 3. Ad aliud dicendum, quod, sicut habitus principiorum primorum non acquiritur per alias scientias, sed habetur a natura; sed habitus conclusionum a primis principiis deductarum: ita etiam in hac doctrina non acquiritur habitus fidei, qui est quasi habitus principiorum; sed acquiritur habitus eorum quae ex eis deducuntur et quae ad eorum defensionem valent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Didn't the Victorians edit the Bible at times?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lot's daughters, Tamar . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone edits the bible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a book from 1873 called "The Confessional" It is a small handbook for confessors, rather unlike other handbooks in that it doesn't attempt to be a moral theology handbook. It recommends exhortations, remedies, penances, etc. Certain areas are put partially in Latin and the author says in the preface that it is to prevent the laity from delving into things....mostly sexual material, but some other (seems to me random) material too....God forbid the laity know that priests might have sins to confess too!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, that would seem to go against Lagrange, no? I remember translating that passage now that you quoted it. Didn't think much at the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6276" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps, but I took these passages to be indicating the existence of an acquired supernatural (?) virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6277" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I think that was Nieto's formulation of the special status of Sacred Theology)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think you might be right: i.e. that a conclusion drawn from two de fide premises is not itself de fide since a conclusion is less known than its premises.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a good point Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been reading that Scotus link.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I looked this up in connection with this Scotus class I'll be taking. I guess Henry of Ghent thought that the theologian had a special faculty, an "intermediate light" between the light of Faith and Beatific Vision by which he had greater insight into theology than the ordinary man does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting. Weird. But interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Supposedly Scotus and Godfrey of Fontaines reacted strongly to this doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6284" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But this is funny. Capreolus, Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, the Salamancans, Lagrange, etc all say it is de fide. When both premises are de fide. The dispute seems to always be over whether one with a premise of reason is, with Suarez e.g. saying it is.<br />Either I am misunderstanding St. Thomas in the passage quote, he change his mind, or virtually every Thomist has interpreted him wrongly....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I am sorry, but I don't understand your difficulty. I probably missed something in my scan of the posts above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the question is: can the conclusion of a syllogism from revealed truths be de fide?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6288" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T02:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T02:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think this has become the Platonic form of tl;dr</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we speaking of de fide as more than a canonical designation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I mean, is that if I were to propose a doctrine like, Mary is Mediatrix of all graces, I think that would follow from de fide principles (i.e. she is the Mother of God, assumed into heaven.) <br />However, while I think it is true, would it follow that belief and assent to this doctrine is obligatory, before it has been defined by the Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe it would have the force of de fide... but I can't see how one could be compelled to believe on pain of being declared a formal heretic without the doctrine being defined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well with the notiones, isn't that the case?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6293" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, the question is can it ever be define de fide. Or is it relegated to being a theological truth, yes capable of being infallibly taught, but not de fide divina (or de fide credenda, as opposed to de fide ecclesiatica, or de fide tenenda)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If that is the question, then I would respond: I don't see why it could not be so defined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ultima conclusio: propositio immediate deducta per proprium discursum ex duabus præmissis formaliter revelatis, quatenus infertur ex illius vi consequentiæ, et illationis, est conclusio theologica; specificative tamen accepta, et considerata est de fide, ob idque tam per fidem, quam per Theologiam possumus illi assentire. Hæc assertio, quam sub hæc distinctione pauci attigere, redigit ad debitam concordiam dissidium quodest super hac re inter Authores, dum quidam, ut Thomistæ, necnon Molina, Valentia, Torres, Lorca, et alii, absolute docent dictam propositionem esse theologicam; quidam vero, ut Okam, Cano, Vega, Vasq. et alii, quos refert, et sequitur Hurtado disp. 10, sect. 1 § 2, absolute affirmant, illam esse de fide. Possunt enim recte conciliari,, si primi loquantur de prædicta propositione formaliter, quatenus habet rationem conclusionis illatæ ex præmissis revelatis; ultimi vero sermonem instituant de ipsa specificative accepta, sive considerata præcise ex parte objecti. Et sane quidquid sit de sensu aliorum, Thomistæ solum loquuntur de illa formaliter, ut est conclusio deducta ex revelatis, ut eos consulenti constabit. Quo sensu verum est prædictam conclusionem esse propositionem theologicam. Nec obstat, quominus alias sit de fide ex eo, quod est deducibilis ex duplici præmissa formaliter revelata, ut statim probabimus.<br />Salamanticensis, Cursus Theologicus, Tomus 11, Tractus 17 de fide, dispt. 1, dubium IV, para 127<br />I think that settles the case with two premises of faith (longest latin quote typed by hand perhaps?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just realized I failed to post the rest of it before closing the text program.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T02:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And not saving....stupid, stupid...well it goes on even further than I posted, addressing theother cases (with one premise)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So the claim there is that, formally speaking, it's thelogical while materially speaking it's de fide</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T02:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or at least capable of being so defined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T02:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what would the implications of denial be before definition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what sense do you mean? Canonically? Morally? Speculatively?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Morally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6304" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michaella Pape" data-date="2014-08-29T03:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michaella Pape at 2014-08-29T03:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread is absurdly addicting... <br />With regard to many comments back - Smaug is too noble a comparison for the troll. <br />Also, when first I started reading this a week ago, it reminded me of a Terry Pratchett novel. Now all I can think of, besides the ever-mentioned TAC Smoker's Patio, is "Rosentrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead". So many glorious exchanges of the profound and profane!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz had previously said that in one circumstance it would destroy the gift of Faith while in another it would be different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one clearly grasps the premises but refuses to assent then one would have to attribute it to a bad will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One could have a poor intellect, however.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know what Joshua Kenz was talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T03:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T03:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be materially heresy if one did not realize the connection with defined faith, formally heresy if they did...a mortal sin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I thought it was standard teaching that any sin against faith destroys it totally. So I'm wondering how the particular distinction between de fide/theological truth relates to that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah. Destroys the faith simply speaking (i.e. formed faith).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6312" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T03:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T03:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sic Aquinas in Summa Theologica somewhere...the consequences of denying the notions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I q.32 a.4: "Respondeo dicendum quod ad fidem pertinet aliquid dupliciter. Uno modo, directe; sicut ea quae nobis sunt principaliter divinitus tradita, ut Deum esse trinum et unum, filium Dei esse incarnatum, et huiusmodi. Et circa haec opinari falsum, hoc ipso inducit haeresim, maxime si pertinacia adiungatur. Indirecte vero ad fidem pertinent ea ex quibus consequitur aliquid contrarium fidei; sicut si quis diceret Samuelem non fuisse filium Elcanae; ex hoc enim sequitur Scripturam divinam esse falsam. Circa huiusmodi ergo absque periculo haeresis aliquis falsum potest opinari, antequam consideretur, vel determinatum sit, quod ex hoc sequitur aliquid contrarium fidei, et maxime si non pertinaciter adhaereat. Sed postquam manifestum est, et praecipue si sit per Ecclesiam determinatum, quod ex hoc sequitur aliquid contrarium fidei, in hoc errare non esset absque haeresi. Et propter hoc, multa nunc reputantur haeretica, quae prius non reputabantur, propter hoc quod nunc est magis manifestum quid ex eis sequatur. Sic igitur dicendum est quod circa notiones aliqui absque periculo haeresis contrarie sunt opinati, non intendentes sustinere aliquid contrarium fidei. Sed si quis falsum opinaretur circa notiones, considerans quod ex hoc sequatur aliquid contrarium fidei, in haeresim laberetur."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6314" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T03:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T03:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Lendman heresy utterly completely destroys faith. Heretics cannot have the virtue of faith, unformed or otherwise. But one can deny even an infallible teaching that is de fide tenenda rather than de fide credenda and still have the virtue of faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6315" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T03:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's really sad that I keep checking this thread for 6,666...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, of course you are right. I misread what you had typed above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just about to correct myself, in fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6318" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to be abundantly clear: Formal heresy does destroy the gift of faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As does denying the conclusion of a syllogism from two de fide credenda premises?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to make everything explicit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T03:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T03:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But only if one clearly sees the connection to the premises de fide credenda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cool!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6323" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T03:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T03:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6324" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T03:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T03:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW an example given of a theological truth (something that could be aruably be taught infallibly, de fide tenenda, but isn't) is with this syllogism<br />Esse sequitur personam<br />Atqui in Christo est unica persona<br />Ergo in Christo est unum esse<br />Now the first premise is from reason, the second is de fide divina. therefore the conclusion is not de fide divina, but merely a theological conclusion. Scotus would deny the argument, but that means he would have to deny the first premise.<br />Another example is<br />Infused knowledge is necessary so that the human intellect not remain imperfect<br />And the human intellect of Christ, already on earth, ought not be imperfect<br />Therefore, Christ, already on earth, had infused knowledge (S. Th. III q. 9 a. 3)<br />The major premise is not de fide, so neither is the conclusion de fide or definable as dogma<br />The Church could condemn the contrary as erroneus, even infallibly so, but not heretical<br />But<br />It is revealed Christ is true God and true man<br />And for true humanity a rational soul is essentially required<br />Therefore Christ had a rational soul.<br />That conclusion is de fide divina and was defined against the Apolloniarians. It is claimed, by Lagrange, that it is not objectively, but only subjectively illative. It is consider explicative, as leading reason to explain the subject and predicate already given in revelation, and not adding a third truth.<br />He gives no example of two premises concluding in a third truth that is de fide and is not revealed elsewhere..<br />But I suspect it is true of certain Marian doctrines. I cannot see how, e.g., some are in revelation except as deduced...except maybe counting Tradition. The common bard today is to try and claim it is all in scripture, but that is not true of the Assumption, clearly...but that gets into another debate!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6325" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-29T04:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-29T04:16:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Despite having to spend a ridiculous amount of time every day catching up on the latest 500+ comments, The Thread is the best thing to happen to my Facebook. Thank you to everybody who made it happen, even -- or especially -- our very own resident troll. (Can we keep him? Can we keep him?? Pleasepleasepleasepleeeeeeeease???)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6326" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-29T04:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-29T04:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously -- I'm glad I kept up with it; I was privy to an amazing display of intellectual discussion (well, the rational half) and I want to thank all you super smart people out there for providing me with all of this metaphysical and theological material that I only got a glimpse of at TAC. I have thoroughly enjoyed being a part of this, and hope to benefit from the bounties of TNET for a while yet </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T07:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T07:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The perfection of man to a large extent is the perfection of his intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, since things have been quiet for awhile, I will share with You O' Thread, my thoughts:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Contemporary theological considerations regarding life between death and resurrection have been fraught with contention and have shifted to a point where the very meaning of resurrection has all but been lost. It was in response to this confusion that the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued a declaration reaffirming the ancient faith of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This document had this in particular to say regarding the soul:<br />The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after death, an element endowed with consciousness and will, so that the "human self" subsists. To designate this element, the Church uses the word "soul", the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Tradition. Although not unaware that this term has various meanings in the Bible, the Church thinks that there is no valid reason for rejecting it; moreover, she considers that the use of some word as a vehicle is absolutely indispensable in order to support the faith of Christians.<br />http://www.vatican.va/.../rc_con_cfaith_doc_19790517...<br />LETTER ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS CONCERNING ESCHATOLOGY<br />The recent Synods of Bishops dealing with evangelization and catechesis have created increasing awareness of the need for perfect fidelity to the fundamental truths of faith, especially at the present time, when profound changes in human society and the concern to integrate the Christian faith into…<br />VATICAN.VA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then Josef Ratzinger, wrote a commentary on this document and brought it up in relation to the formula adopted by the council of Vienna that the soul is the form of the body. Ratzinger duly noted the Thomistic connection of this formula and made this comment about St. Thomas Aquinas' appropriation of the Aristotelian conception of soul: “Thomas took this formulation [the soul is the form of the body] and gave it, in terms of his own thought, a fundamentally new significance.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6332" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, a careful scrutiny of both Aristotle's and Thomas' treatment of the soul, however, makes it difficult to see how Thomas gives the formulation, “the soul is the form of the body” a “fundamentally new significance.” To hold such a position seems to ignore the fact that Thomas treats of the soul in several places, and in different ways. This position seems to stem from the belief that Aristotelian thought regarding the soul as the form of the body is necessarily dualistic. Neither of these positions, finally, seem tenable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6333" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I argue that Thomas' use of this formulation is fundamentally the same as Aristotle's and that this in no way contradicts the above teachings regarding soul. However, it is in light of revelation that Thomas is able to approach the soul in a fundamentally new way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle's treatment of the soul is limited, quite properly, to a mode proper to philosophy. Thomas in no way rejects this method, but even follows it in certain places in his own work. With the benefit of revelation, however, Thomas is able to approach the consideration of the soul beginning with God but this, nevertheless, does not fundamentally change the meaning of soul as forma corporis, but is an authoritative confirmation of this fundamentally Aristotelian formula.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This seems to fit nicely into the "faith and reason" theme and "Arithomist" theme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think here one sees the way in which faith and reason, and Thomas and Aquinas interact on an important matter of philosophy and theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6337" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, most of y'all are still asleep or are just waking up, so I don't expect any thoughts immediately.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, when anyone who is interested, who is likewise drawn back to the thread gets a chance, I would love to hear thoughts on the matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you saying you think the "human self endowed with consciousness and will" surviving death is an Aristotelian idea?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6340" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, good morning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6341" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm up before my kids. So, I probably have about 5 minutes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6342" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(247, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woah-- catching up-- lots went on after I went to bed!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember a lecture at TAC, where a certain Tutor no longer there, got very worked up indeed on whether that-which-survived-death was the person or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6344" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(73, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I may have missed the lecture, I don't remember it, but that never proves anything as bad as my memory can be, but I do remember you telling me about it, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6345" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was a fun lecture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6346" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, can I just say -- I TOLD you guys that Wasteland quote was directed at me. I feel vindicated now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who gave it? I can't remember his name. And on that note, is there a way to get a list of the lectures that occured while we were there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I have no idea. But the tutors got REALLY into it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was a fun lecture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6350" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB has mental issues. In support I offer this: http://www.slate.com/.../internet_troll_personality_study...<br />Science Confirms: Internet Trolls Really Are Narcissistic, Psychopathic, and Sadistic<br />In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology...<br />SLATE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That issue, though related, was not principally on my mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel--would you PM me the rest of your paper? (I assume it was the precis or whatever, that you posted above).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, Aristotle's understanding of what part of the intellect survives is pretty different than what the Church affirms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, I would send it to you if I had finished writing it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6355" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T07:49:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I posted that troll study 6,000 comments ago!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6356" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T07:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Recurrence, Eternal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6357" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not other Matthew. It is continual manifestation of TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope to finish it next semester. Joel HF</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6359" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T07:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T07:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">True.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, it is not clear to me that it is different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6361" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha! I actually missed that, despite being here from the beginning. Also, w/r/t non-troll people who post-online, the paper says this: "What’s more, [the study] also found a relationship between all Dark Tetrad traits (except for narcissism) and the overall time that an individual spent, per day, commenting on the Internet."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church says very little, in fact, about the 'state of being" of the soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is to say, "the separated soul."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6364" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we had better hope that it's more than just an impotent active intellect, though. Aristotle's way of surviving is seriously limited</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--what does the Church affirm, in your view? (I know very little about what it does or doesn't propose here.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church does not say very much about the state of being of the separated soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I think you are probably right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6368" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if, and to the extent that, that is true, it would have to be a super-added grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6369" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after death, an element endowed with consciousness and will, so that the "human self" subsists. To designate this element, the Church uses the word "soul", the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Tradition. >>> I'm just going off of what Daniel quoted</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6370" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought that STA proposed that by way of grace, the soul was able to operate beyond mere impotent intellect, but by nature that's all that survived really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Something not contained within the nature of the soul, itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes^ and ^Yes^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, so we're agreed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T07:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T07:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm also not at all sure Aristotle would be able to say that the "human self" subsists after death</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6375" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. But nor would the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6376" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That, as I recall, was (more or less) the point of contention between the two tutors in question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not strictly speaking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T07:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T07:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church says that a human soul or spiritual element subsists, but this in not what it is to be human.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6379" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T08:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T08:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To avoid identifying them, I'll call them "Hubert" and "Lonnie"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T07:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T07:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm off to Mass. Later y'all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Daniel, you never responded to my question 1000 comments ago about St. Paul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Further, the Church teaches (rather shockingly, really) that a soul has a relation to "this body"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, you are probably right. Which question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Remember, when you were all like "St. Paul and the Fathers are against NFP! Have fun! See ya!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol! Oh yeah...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Family obligations drew me away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes yes, I forgive you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, first of all, I think St. Paul and the Fathers would be totally supportive of NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they would highly recommend it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh. Well then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6391" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">At the same time, they would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids pregnancy would be venially sinful in the context of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, so that's when I was all "eh, the church fathers think lots of stuff. What about Paul?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful. And venial sin is only sin secundum quid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6394" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I *really* don't think that's the cool thing about marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, "a" cool thing, at least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_6397" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, now my family obligations beckon. later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We shall continue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6399" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T08:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T08:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How did NFP get involved? I am so confused. Obviously I had too much of an actual life yesterday. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6400" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:33:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woah... that's what I get for sleeping. As far as the Peregrott is concerned, I outed him on another thread ages ago. And I've repeatedly counselled humor over outrage at him.<br />this is way selfish, but I say keep him on TNET because it gives me a chance to counter-troll and I oh so enjoy it. <br />Finally, as to the substance of his supposed sexist comments, I love me some Raging Bitch:<br />http://flyingdogbrewery.com/beers/raging-bitch/<br />and it is in MD<br />Raging Bitch Belgian-Style IPA - Flying Dog Brewery<br />A Maryland craft brewery that views brewing beer as an...<br />FLYINGDOGBREWERY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6401" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T08:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T08:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And who/what exactly is our Troll? I mean, I knew a whole ago he had multiple profiles but now.... Uh what? . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6402" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:39:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, IDK, Jody seems to be the only who has met him personally (unless he changes faces too......) I take him to be kind of like the slave boy in Meno, except he asks questions instead of answering them, and doesn't come to any conclusions. So wait, maybe the opposite of the slave boy. The slave boy can be taught</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6403" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, Daniel, I have literally never heard that sex during infertile times is venially sinful. I'm quite sure there's no such notion in Paul (or the Bible). Sounds like something that comes from the view that sex's sole valid purpose is for procreation, which I thought had been pretty thoroughly repudiated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By everyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6405" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know that anyone (by that I mean sane people who are in the Church) has held that the ONLY valid purpose of the conjugal act is procreation. But, it is the position of the Church, that procreation is the primary aim of the conjugal act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, sure. But then why would you think the thing about non-fertile sex being venially sinful?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6407" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:44:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this a problem of scale? Because I doubt during the conjugal act many are thinking primarily of procreation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that is certainly fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6409" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one looks at one's spouse with an eye toward where the evening may end up is that venial sin re: lust?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because if a man is unmarried, it is adultery, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6411" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why the Fathers held that it while it was possible to engage in the marital act without venial sin, it was very uncommon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^subject to debate^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6413" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I think this idea of married sex being the same sort of thing as unmarried sex, just less sinful get some things seriously wrong about marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I think the Fathers would say so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough. Then living with a spouse is venially sinful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6416" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that's because the Fathers were seriously uncomfortable with sexual desire. Good new, though, we don't have to be!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6417" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that would be a gross mis-characterization of what the fathers and the church teach.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">come on, man, you've read Augustine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For many, Michael, probably. But that is not in opposition to it being a pathway to holiness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know about that. Look at secular Roman History, and they were living at a time when sexual mores were arguably worse than now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marriage is supposed to end in celibacy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6422" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What, you mean, when one of us dies?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6424" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and every Martha has to end up a Mary Magdalene, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Precisely.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6426" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope. the better part does not mean the only part</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Crap, I knew I should have become a Studite......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, "If you would be perfect..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, the Church is not afraid of venial sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T08:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd study more math. and reason to perfection</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is okay to not be living the life of perfection right now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T08:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm confused. Why would you say that married sex is almost always venially sinful if you affirm that it is good to desire your spouse?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6434" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T08:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One just wants to end there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6435" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">In heaven, all will be celibate. But no one will really be married either, unless you are talking mystically and with Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6436" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to be very clear: I only hold this position with very tentatively. The reason I do hold it, is because I don't know how else to read the Scriptures and the Fathers and appreciate the tradition of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You keep talking about the Scriptures! What Scriptures?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">this ties in well with the distinction between "personhood" and "human" from the above heaven discussion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6439" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think our culture has a huge blind spot re celibacy--namely that it is impossible unless one is some sort of a-sexual freak. St. Paul, otoh, clearly wants everyone to be as celibate as they are able to be, even if they are married I think. The Fathers run with this in weird directions, imo, but even JPII (at least, according to some readings) held that celibacy was a universal goal for christians. (NB: I haven't read any JPII.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(208, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">1Cor 7:1-3 - It is good for a man not to touch a woman.<br />2 But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.<br />3 Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel-- Paul never indicates in the least that he would like married people to be celibate, quite the reverse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The idea is that this is to avoid "burning."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and he gives lots of reasons for this position, none of which are that married sex is sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I wish all could be as I am..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha-- I don't think St. Paul thought married sex was sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because he is able to focus entirely on the gospel, not because married sex is sinful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, that's the conclusion Daniel is drawing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6448" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I am not.^^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6450" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And condemned I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that married infertile sex is venially sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will say that again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6454" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and married fertile sex, if one isn't pondering the procreative aspect</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha: This is the passage I was thinking of "Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No need! I revised!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6458" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I would not say that either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nor have I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you did say that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not "inherently" just most usually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6463" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said: It seems that the Fathers and St. Paul would teach us that marital act that deliberately avoids conception would be venially sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"At the same time, they would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids pregnancy would be venially sinful in the context of marriage."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1 Corinthians 7:5--I take St. Paul in that passage to be recommending continence to married couples, but counseling against over-doing it "Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6468" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman is a Puritan!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is different that saying "Infertile sex is sinful."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and also:"The cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn it! I have been found out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6472" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't tell my wife!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not pondering, mb, but rather "that not being the end" mb</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6474" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm telliing Pope Bonbon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6475" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to take my kids to school and go to the gym. I leave this to you, Michael. Though I guess we have already won.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6476" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife takes the kids to school. I'm already at "work"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I changed this: "The cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful."<br />To <br />"A cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My kids aren't old enough for school...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6479" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia--you are just now figuring this out? Also, you should have seen/heard Big Angry Daniel at TAC. I think he wanted the women's dress-code to be Burkas at all times, even in the dorm. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6480" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOT PURITANICAL. that is just pbish lack of distinguishing and you know it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6481" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait! It's August! School in August is immoral.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6482" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a joke.... I kid, I kid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I took no offense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hell I have 2 in junior high</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6485" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I was always misunderstood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6486" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"><----old</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and that was not helped by a severe lack of prudence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are old!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6492" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_6493" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel--I know. And re "severe lack of prudence" you and me both!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think part of the challenge to this view has to do with individualism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6495" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that the Fathers and ancients in general had a much more robust notion of the unity of humanity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6496" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, that is the best thing I have ever seen you post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6497" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, it kind of came out of nowhere, but still...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If your contributions continue along that vein, we can be friends!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6499" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Don't speak too soon^<br />Linda Blair always comes back</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6500" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--I would like to hear your take on what I said about St. Paul and continence above--as your duties to your family allow, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6501" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In re to the above: I think the stronger notion of the union of humanity helped them see how marriage and children are really ordered to the good of all humanity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Me too^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6503" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">One more qualifier: The position I have forwarded is not one that "I want" to be true. I am really earnestly, and honestly just trying to understand where the teachings of Scripture and the Fathers take us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6504" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . better notions about lots really. They are far more coherent than we in our incoherence give them credit. They were young we are old; they robust we decrepit. The oracle has spoken. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6505" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also don't accept, as a rule, that the Fathers all were weird about sex. That might be true, but I would be loathe to assume that and dismiss their counsel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6506" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The intellectual customs of our day are too suspect for us to dismiss the Fathers so summarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES DL YES</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6508" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In any event, to complete my thought from above, I think the modern view of continence is self-fulfilling. If all are taught that continence is impossible (and probably shows some sort of psychologically harmful “repression” anyway), then no-one will be continent. <br />For this reason, I think it is useful to listen to counsel from other ages with an open-mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6509" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahaha! Remember when you started that petition to make the dress code stricter? Good times. : )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">caeci caecos . . . . . baby. All i am saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6512" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^which is why I tend to agree with listening to other ages wisdom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6513" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">at the same time, we need to understand how marriage leads the married to sanctity, not just "Makes moral sin venial"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and somewhere along the way we missed 6666</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St Paul's semi-rejection of marriage had nothing to do with sex, but was rather about his desire that everyone should be free to serve the gospel without distraction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6516" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, he would have been REALLY against the Thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, how do you take the passage I quoted then? One of the distractions is sex/sexual desire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6518" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">REMEMBER. Lust is a sin that partictularly blinds too. And i am not claiming to be the one eyed in a land o the blind neither.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6519" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">labor me vocat. later</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6520" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean otherwise his advice to everyone would be to leave their wives/husbands and become a hermit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6521" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^(Certain church fathers may have actually given this adivce, in fact.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6522" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">in marriage i take sanctification to mean a development (did i use that word) from physical union to spiritual with God (first) and spouse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6523" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am strongly tempted --just so that this thread may cover every hot button Catholic/TAC issue, mind you--to post a few comments on the SSPX. Must. Resist. Urge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6524" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I think that reading of St. Paul is perhaps tenable. <br />I think that Joel HF is right, though, that you would have to account for this verse: "Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6525" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am so tempted to wade into this but I no I shouldn't get caught.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">know*!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, your reading of St. Paul in that regard would not, seemingly, be in the accord with the tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which doesn't mean that your position is wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too late Lucy. You're in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And tagged.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T09:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That would only be his advice if he didn't recognize the obligations spouses have to each other, which he clearly did</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Neverending Thread will not release you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't follow you, Samantha. Can you explain?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6534" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T09:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(NB--once again, my position isn't that St. Paul was against sex in marriage. But he did counsel (not command!) periodic continence, imo.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6535" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T09:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews YO SCOTTY BOY! Care to explain how Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who's been dead since 2011, could give you a blurb for your book you allegedly wrote? The one you have a kickstarter for now. Three years after he died.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6537" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">reading of the early Canadian martyrs, the married pioneers did at a point start living without intercourse. Edifying not puritanical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6538" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, fine, I'm in. I don't think that the fact that virginity for the sake of the Kingdom is the higher calling means that the lesser calling is in any way sinful. And what does that have to do with the NFP issue itself?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw, I would appreciate your input, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6540" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The neverending thread won't release me AND it made me spill coffee on myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6541" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, just to be clear, the position that it seems like the Scriptures and the Fathers would hold is that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids procreation is venially sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that doesn't make sense from a continence aspect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What MB said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6544" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one here, to my knowledge, thinks that the marital act is sinful per se.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is the lack of a conjugal act that deliberately avoids procreation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, "It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently sinful."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, if that's true, Daniel , how do you reconcile that with the Church's approval of NFP?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6548" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T09:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So too is dieting then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IF continence is sinfully, even venial, then how often are married couples required to perform the marital act during fertile periods?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Immediately I don't know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6551" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">is it like going to confession once a year (minimum)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T09:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To cite Janet Smith's argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I'm not obligated to have sex, then how is avoiding it sinful? It is only a sin if I'm obligated. So how often to I have to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I don't see why it is wrong for the Church to encourage an act that is venially sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is better that mortal sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is nothing wrong with celibacy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I meant continence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6558" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you eat for the taste alone? Did you make the meal all special and fancy and about more than fulfilling bodily urges to sustain your body?<br />SINNER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is not reason that would involve a venial sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wha? Do you really think the Church is encouraging venial sin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^No.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just don't see why it would be a problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">..if it did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because she ultimately tells everyone to strive for celibacy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, this argument just seems crazy to me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6566" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, the problem is not pleasure. The problem is disordered pleasure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe, it is wrong. Again, it seems that the scripture and the Fathers support it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">With the food example?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the traditions of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6570" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it a venial sin to eat ice cream or candy? I mean, it really doesn't have much nutritional value at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6571" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't drink wine to hydrate myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6573" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But eating too much would be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And thus doesn't please in virtue of fulfilling the central natural end of eating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But drinking too much would be bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The ultimately striving for celibacy thing means, as far as I can tell, that all are destined for the wedding feast of the Lamb and no one will be having sex with anybody there. Meanwhile some live that now, as celibates. But the idea that married people should strive to be more and more celibate is cuh-razy (and probably contrary to their vows?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^in fact marriage is ordered to celibacy. Ideally even here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in this life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6580" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">After fertile years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6581" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I quoted cannon X on marriage from Trent earlier, everyone agrees (lest the anathema) that celibacy is the better part.<br />Some of us are Martha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not necessarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ummm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6584" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T09:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That umm is about celibacy in infertile years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6585" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess most or half or at least 40% of all eating even outside of gluttony/too much quantitatively would be sinful under this definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What definition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or line of thinking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6588" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly booze and candy would be at least venial sins. Heh. Individual act not ordered to the central or primary natural end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T09:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">true Matthew. And this has been the constant cousel until very recent. ^^^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6590" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"For in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends [beyond procreation], such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscencce which hsband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the insrinsic nature of the act is preserved."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T09:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The same thing would follow with regard to booze and candy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No Lucy, that was about religious versus married</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6593" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T09:54:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse eventually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman, what do you take "intrinsic nature of the act" to mean?\</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wha??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6596" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET touches on all things, Pater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T09:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wha what??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6598" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T09:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you noticed that if you use text->speech feature on mac to catch up on the thread the robo-voice sounds like a valley girl because it says "like" constantly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6599" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T09:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wha everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6600" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-08-29T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-29T09:56:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">>>I knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse eventually.<<<br />The Catholic version of Godwin's Law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6601" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T09:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T09:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's something I wrote on NFP on another thread. (Not written for TACers so forgive the "Philosophy of Nature for Dummies" part):<br />«I’ve been mulling this over, and there are lots of things I would like to say, but I I’ll just respond to what Steve H wrote above about nature, since I think the meaning of “nature” is really key to thinking about these things. I’m not sure whether I can say this as clearly as I would like, but I’ll give it a try.<br />When the fathers and doctors of the Church use the term “nature” they usually mean by it a principle change and rest that is in a thing making that thing be what it is. So the “nature” of a tree is the principle in the tree according to which the tree grows and stops growing, stretches out toward the sun, bears fruit, etc. Now this nature is seen as being directed toward a goal, toward a good, that the thing is supposed to realize. So nature is a kind of direction within a thing toward a particular good that it is supposed to realize. But to be directed toward a the good presupposes some kind of knowledge, so St. Thomas Aquinas defines nature as a kind of impression of the Divine Reason on creatures; the nature of each thing is a kind of participation in the divine wisdom by which that thing is directed towards its end. This is the sense of nature from which natural law is derived: human beings are directed by this innate impression of divine wisdom to seek self-preservation, reproduction, friendship, knowledge of God etc. and to shun what is destructive of those goods.<br />Now nature in this sense is what makes a thing to be what it is. A tree is a tree because of the sort of participation in the divine wisdom that it has, a participation that orders it to the sort of good that can be realized by a tree. A human person on the other hand is human because of her nature. Now, this sense of nature applies not only to human beings as natural things, but also to human _actions_ and this is the crucial point for understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. Human actions, because they are directed by human nature, can be said to “have” “a nature.” One can look a kind of human actions and ask “what is the nature of this sort of act”–i.e. what is the innate ordering to a goal that this kind of act has. In our case one can ask “What is the nature of the sexual act? What is the innate order toward a good goal in it that makes it to be sexual intercourse and not something else?”<br />I want to discuss an example that I think is closely parallel to the example of the sexual act and NFP vs. contraception. It too is an example that many people find hard to understand, and for the same reason, but I think it can help us to understand what “natural” means in this context. The example I have in mind is telling the truth and deceiving by equivocation vs lying. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “By its very _nature_, lying is to be condemned.” (2485) This is based on St. Thomas’s analysis of the nature of speech. Speech is by “nature” ordered to communicate the thoughts that a person has in her mind, if she (or he I’m trying not to offend anyone here…) says something which is directly contrary to what she thinks, then she violates the nature of speech, the action is “unnatural.” Thus the whole class of actions called lies is intrinsically bad and can never be good. Nevertheless, in certain emergences it can be morally good to deceive someone by equivocation, that is by saying something true which they are liable to misunderstand. Classic example: St. Athanasius fleeing his persecutors by boat, orders his men to turn the boat around and sail straight toward the persecutors, the persecutors ask his men “have you seen Athanasius,” and his men answer (on his orders), “yes, he is near by.” The persecutors hurry on up stream.<br />What is the difference between lying and equivocating in such a situation? In both cases one is intending to deceive. But in the case of a lie you are directly acting against the nature of the act of speech–it’s the wrong _kind_ of act that you are doing. When you equivocate you are certainly not _intending_ to communicate truth, but the act nevertheless is the right _kind_ of act, it has the _nature_ of true speech, even though in this case you sure hope it won’t succeed in communicating truth.<br />The case of NFP and contraception is similar.<br />The primary end of sexual intercourse is reproduction. Of course sex also realizes other goods: the union of the spouses, pleasure etc. But the one that defines it, that makes it to be what it is, that gives it it’s nature is reproduction.<br />Similarly communicating the truth is not the only good that speech realizes–speech also strengthens relationships, sounds nice etc. But it is communicating truth that gives speech its nature–it is the primary natural end of speech from which all the others flow. Hence St. Thomas teaches that one even the so-called “friendly lie” (lying out of politeness: “you look great”), or the jocose lie (April fool’s jokes), are sinful.<br />So the question w/r/t contraception is: “What kind of act is this?” What Paul VI teaches (and John Paul II expands on at great length), is that contraception changes the kind of act that one is doing–it’s not just that one is not _intending_ to re-produce, it’s that the kind of act one is choosing is not a re-productive kind of act all. It doesn’t have the nature of proper sex, and hence it is unnatural. It is like a lie.<br />NFP on the other hand is more like equivocation. In an emergency situation (whether caused by unjust economic structures or sickness or whatever), one does not want the sexual act to result in pregnancy. So one chooses to engage in a true sexual act, but in such a way that it will not result in pregnancy. Just as Athanasius’s sailors say something _true_ but in a way that will not communicate the truth.<br />This is hard to see for us because the modern idea of nature is very different from the true one. The natural world is seen by the moderns as a kind of machine with parts acted on by blind force, rather than an order of things directed from within by impressions of the divine wisdom. That I think is why so many people protested against Humanae Vitae. I think the main point of Bl. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body is to try to recover the traditional view of the nature of the human acts that this teaching is based on. In the final audience he says that the whole series was ordered to understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. What he tries to show finally is that this teaching is about our very structure as creatures of God; about the impression in us of the divine wisdom.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Drew Summitt" data-date="2014-08-29T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Drew Summitt at 2014-08-29T09:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><<>>I knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse eventually.<<<br />but muh theology of the body.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"For intercourse of marriage for the sake of begetting hs not fault; but for the satisfying of lust, but yet with husband or wife, by reason of the faith of the bed, it has venial fault;"<br />Augustine, On the Good of Marriage, 6.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6604" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just waiting for the inevitable SSPX discussions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6605" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:00:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also agree with Samantha up to a point about certain things the Fathers say about women being not quite right. But the Fathers are nothing compared to our very own Saint Albert the Great. I'm afraid St. Albert had some bad experiences with a lady in Cologne that rather colored his view of the fairer sex.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6606" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Yeah....or St. Jerome. His blowing up when some lady friend of his announced she was getting married. EPIC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T10:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is to say there is no replacement for a well-formed conscience and a good spiritual director</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6608" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T10:02:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ain't no Puritan like a Catholic Puritan because a Catholic Puritan can cite St. Augustine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6609" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lucy--weren't St. Thérèse of Lisieux's parents celibate for large periods of their marriage? I don't see what they would be wrong. I also don't see why the converse would be wrong either, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Epic win^ "Ain't no Puritan like a Catholic Puritan because a Catholic Puritan can cite St. Augustine"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St Albert on women part one:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And of course, St. Jerome, and St. Albert, and St. Francis de Sales, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6613" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T10:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lips that sin by eating candy shall not touch my own!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">2:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">3:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Joel HF, my understanding was that Louis and Zellie WANTED to be celibate, but were told no by their spiritual director.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">4:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6618" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Father Buckley's argument against smoking is that no woman (or man, as appropriate) would want to kiss you if you had smoker's breath. But he is a Jesuit, of course, and not to be trusted. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6619" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All from: http://books.google.at/books?id=vCFFpzofHqIC&lpg=PA5...<br />Questions Concerning Aristotle's On Animals (The Fathers of the Church,...<br />BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6620" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Ah Magnus, Magnus, Magnus. SMH.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bekah Sims--that could be right, but I thought they were celibate for a long while before (under their spiritual director) discerning a call for children. I don't have any position here, but I don't see why a couple that mutually agreed to abstain for a period of time (even a long period of time, if they were able) would be doing anything wrong. Just as I don't see why a couple that didn't abstain would be doing anything wrong either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another thing that we should perhaps think about is that some things were just lost in The Fall. It is certainly true that concupiscence is one of the things man must always live with. I think this was driving a great deal of what the Fathers were saying and thinking about marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6623" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T10:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong of course about a married couple deciding to be celibate (though I think it's kind of weird) if it is a mutual decision. But I don't think it is what marriage is ordered to as Daniel said. Nor is not doing so a venial sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6624" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(70, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Joel....I would think if both spouses were on board, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. Unless their motivations were off. Or it was based misunderstanding of Church teaching. Which wouldn't make them wrong, but make the situation not good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6625" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would actually be interested in hearing what people think of my lying:equivocation::contraception:NFP proportion above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6626" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T10:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would you guys just chill til I'm done working out?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6627" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I said above, I have no attachment to any outcome to this argument. Sadly, all that seems to be said against what seems to be the position of the Fathers and Scripture and Tradition is "It's Puritanical!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I would think if being celibate was a choice in marriage....is indicative of something amiss. Perhaps physically or something, because it isn't natural. And it isn't how God designed marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6629" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That St. Albert article is highly amusing!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6630" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel--I don't think that's fair. Arguments have been given on both sides. Other than a few jokes, no one (here at least) is dismissing any of the positions out of hand, I don't think. Which is amazing, given the subject and the forum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6631" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 95%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Pater Edmund, I have no idea where that comment of yours was made and am too lazy to look for it in the hundreds of comments above.....feel free to repeat it for me. (pretty please)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T10:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ahh . . . Like grandad used to say: its much easier to ridicule ones father than try to understand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund--this thread moves way too fast. Where did you give that proportion or whatever?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6634" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, Bekah, repeating. Sorry it's kind of long:<br />Here's something I wrote on NFP on another thread. (Not written for TACers so forgive the "Philosophy of Nature for Dummies" part):<br />«I’ve been mulling this over, and there are lots of things I would like to say, but I I’ll just respond to what Steve H wrote above about nature, since I think the meaning of “nature” is really key to thinking about these things. I’m not sure whether I can say this as clearly as I would like, but I’ll give it a try.<br />When the fathers and doctors of the Church use the term “nature” they usually mean by it a principle change and rest that is in a thing making that thing be what it is. So the “nature” of a tree is the principle in the tree according to which the tree grows and stops growing, stretches out toward the sun, bears fruit, etc. Now this nature is seen as being directed toward a goal, toward a good, that the thing is supposed to realize. So nature is a kind of direction within a thing toward a particular good that it is supposed to realize. But to be directed toward a the good presupposes some kind of knowledge, so St. Thomas Aquinas defines nature as a kind of impression of the Divine Reason on creatures; the nature of each thing is a kind of participation in the divine wisdom by which that thing is directed towards its end. This is the sense of nature from which natural law is derived: human beings are directed by this innate impression of divine wisdom to seek self-preservation, reproduction, friendship, knowledge of God etc. and to shun what is destructive of those goods.<br />Now nature in this sense is what makes a thing to be what it is. A tree is a tree because of the sort of participation in the divine wisdom that it has, a participation that orders it to the sort of good that can be realized by a tree. A human person on the other hand is human because of her nature. Now, this sense of nature applies not only to human beings as natural things, but also to human _actions_ and this is the crucial point for understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. Human actions, because they are directed by human nature, can be said to “have” “a nature.” One can look a kind of human actions and ask “what is the nature of this sort of act”–i.e. what is the innate ordering to a goal that this kind of act has. In our case one can ask “What is the nature of the sexual act? What is the innate order toward a good goal in it that makes it to be sexual intercourse and not something else?”<br />I want to discuss an example that I think is closely parallel to the example of the sexual act and NFP vs. contraception. It too is an example that many people find hard to understand, and for the same reason, but I think it can help us to understand what “natural” means in this context. The example I have in mind is telling the truth and deceiving by equivocation vs lying. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “By its very _nature_, lying is to be condemned.” (2485) This is based on St. Thomas’s analysis of the nature of speech. Speech is by “nature” ordered to communicate the thoughts that a person has in her mind, if she (or he I’m trying not to offend anyone here…) says something which is directly contrary to what she thinks, then she violates the nature of speech, the action is “unnatural.” Thus the whole class of actions called lies is intrinsically bad and can never be good. Nevertheless, in certain emergences it can be morally good to deceive someone by equivocation, that is by saying something true which they are liable to misunderstand. Classic example: St. Athanasius fleeing his persecutors by boat, orders his men to turn the boat around and sail straight toward the persecutors, the persecutors ask his men “have you seen Athanasius,” and his men answer (on his orders), “yes, he is near by.” The persecutors hurry on up stream.<br />What is the difference between lying and equivocating in such a situation? In both cases one is intending to deceive. But in the case of a lie you are directly acting against the nature of the act of speech–it’s the wrong _kind_ of act that you are doing. When you equivocate you are certainly not _intending_ to communicate truth, but the act nevertheless is the right _kind_ of act, it has the _nature_ of true speech, even though in this case you sure hope it won’t succeed in communicating truth.<br />The case of NFP and contraception is similar.<br />The primary end of sexual intercourse is reproduction. Of course sex also realizes other goods: the union of the spouses, pleasure etc. But the one that defines it, that makes it to be what it is, that gives it it’s nature is reproduction.<br />Similarly communicating the truth is not the only good that speech realizes–speech also strengthens relationships, sounds nice etc. But it is communicating truth that gives speech its nature–it is the primary natural end of speech from which all the others flow. Hence St. Thomas teaches that one even the so-called “friendly lie” (lying out of politeness: “you look great”), or the jocose lie (April fool’s jokes), are sinful.<br />So the question w/r/t contraception is: “What kind of act is this?” What Paul VI teaches (and John Paul II expands on at great length), is that contraception changes the kind of act that one is doing–it’s not just that one is not _intending_ to re-produce, it’s that the kind of act one is choosing is not a re-productive kind of act all. It doesn’t have the nature of proper sex, and hence it is unnatural. It is like a lie.<br />NFP on the other hand is more like equivocation. In an emergency situation (whether caused by unjust economic structures or sickness or whatever), one does not want the sexual act to result in pregnancy. So one chooses to engage in a true sexual act, but in such a way that it will not result in pregnancy. Just as Athanasius’s sailors say something _true_ but in a way that will not communicate the truth.<br />This is hard to see for us because the modern idea of nature is very different from the true one. The natural world is seen by the moderns as a kind of machine with parts acted on by blind force, rather than an order of things directed from within by impressions of the divine wisdom. That I think is why so many people protested against Humanae Vitae. I think the main point of Bl. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body is to try to recover the traditional view of the nature of the human acts that this teaching is based on. In the final audience he says that the whole series was ordered to understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. What he tries to show finally is that this teaching is about our very structure as creatures of God; about the impression in us of the divine wisdom.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Daniel, it's not that it's Puritanical, it's that those comments lack the fullness of truth as taught by the Church. Augustine's views on marriage and sex aren't what come from the Chair of Peter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, my object to the comparison is that deception is only permissible when one is deceiving someone who is not a valid authority. To describe this more generically:<br />The situation must be an emergency and with regard to something that is not owed anything more by right.<br />It seems that, with NFP, there is always a "legitimate authority," or someone that is owed something more, namely, (I think) humanity, and the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6638" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Casti Conubii could be seen as Augustine's On the Good of Marriage made into an encyclical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T10:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good morning everyone I have a Jesus Montero update for you<br />http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20140829...<br />Not Found<br />MILB.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T10:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know why it says not found because the link is not broken.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6641" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since new people have arrived I should make a few things clear that I said above: Just to be very clear: I only hold this position with very tentatively. The reason I do hold it, is because I don't know how else to read the Scriptures and the Fathers and appreciate the tradition of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, what you said above is fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6643" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think your objections stands, Big Angry Daniel, because in an emergency situation you aren't doing the Church any harm by using NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What did I say above?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, i dont think it works. NFP seems ordered to mitigating concupiscence and thus venial. We ought to strive higher not that i do. We deny flesh to be increase spiritually - thus do we grow one with our end and paradoxically more unified with our spouse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF about people giving arguments,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6647" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one is deliberately avoiding conception, isn't one deliberately avoiding bringing more members into the Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6648" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Dan is Big Angry again, is Pater Edmund "Tommy Wally" now too? Or does the dignity of his office as a priest (and not of course his personal dignity--a prophet in his own country [alma mater] and all that--) preclude such nicknames?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6649" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, Tommy Wally Edmund.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6650" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Ruplinger, your position is that equivocation is sometimes better than silence, but continence is always better than NFP? Is that what you are saying?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^This doesn't seem unreasonable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6652" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I think I see the comparison you are making Pater Edmund, but I don't agree. For a couple using the naturally occurring infertile time, there is nothing different in the act on their part. The fact that it does not bring for a child is simply a result of the nature God created. They are still completely ordered towards life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHy??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6654" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews NFP is continence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Bekah, equivocation is ordered toward truth in exactly the same sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">continence and NFP have different aims. So yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6657" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Except when one deliberately engages in the conjugal act at such a time that one will not conceive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6658" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see why it would have to be venial. Perhaps NFP wouldn't be the best response, just as marriage is lower than virginity, but that something is imperfect does not make it sinful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6659" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Daniel, no that's not right. There is no hall of souls waiting to be released into the Church. There are unique individuals endowed with a unique soul created by God at the moment of their conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6660" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T10:23:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">"equivocation is ordered toward truth in exactly the same sense" - as is TNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, Joel HF</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is concupiscence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews No, continence and NFP do not, necessarily, have different ends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6664" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-29T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-29T10:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Alright, I'm going to go read some heretical German moral theology now. (For my studies, not for fun).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bekah, that is not what was trying to imply.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6666" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, even now, times of infertility is not an exact science. Certainly at the time of the Fathers, there would have been very little way to determine when a child was or was not likely to result.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6667" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lucy Zepeda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucy Zepeda at 2014-08-29T10:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, why is making use of the infertile time necessarily concupiscent? I mean it might be, but that seems accidental. The real moral issue, it seems to me, is whether or not there is a good reason to avoid the fertile time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I guess I see equivocation as trying to cheat your way out of telling the truth, kinda the whole Jesuit mental reservation thing, and maybe I don't understand it properly. But using naturally occurring infertile times isn't waffling on the truth in any way shape or form. It's using the time God created.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6669" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If procreation always had to be primary, then it would seem a serious scandal when persons , who through age or infirmity cannot conceive, marry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Agreed w/ Lucy above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews OK, Daniel. I just don't think you can say that by being NOT pregnant you are keeping members from the church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6672" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lucy, I don't know the answer to this question: Okay, why is making use of the infertile time necessarily concupiscent?<br />but I think the answer is concupiscence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6673" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie Duda--everyone knows that old people marrying is just gross. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Why Daniel? I mean, what leads you to that answer to Lucy's question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6675" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When children are a distinct possibility, the act is inherently unselfish and then open to being done without sin. Though even this is hard to accomplish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">VENIAL SIN IS NOT GRAVE!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews But, that's the thing with NFP.....children are always a distinct possibility. Even when you think you're using an infertile time. I just changed infertile time's diaper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6678" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one should worry about lusting over his spouse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chances are people can't distinguish between lusting over their spouse and having ordered desires.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6680" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Venial sin isn't grave, but it is serious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only if it is habitual and leads one away from God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that is what I meant by serious Joel HF. I will edit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews No, sin is bad. Always. And to be avoided, always. And having sex with your wife, when her chances of getting pregnant are slim.....not a sin. It's a good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6684" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Similarly, the jocular lie is a sin, but you probably have a lot worse sins to work on and confess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So don't worry too much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I thought having sex was suppose to be a source of grace in marriage?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bekah, if it is without concupiscence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie, I think that is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, venial sin can mitigate the efficaciousness of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6690" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Sex during fertile times most certainly been done with concupiscence as well. The timing isn't what makes it good, it's the spirit in which one approaches the spouse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6691" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is a thought: a stable and loving relationship with your spouse is suppose to be the best thing you can do for your kids... Sex is suppose to help that. Does this mean even infertile-time sex can be for the greater benefit of the family?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6693" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes, in lieu of causing problems with the marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6694" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it would be better to remain continent during that time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews in my eyes Katie, yes. Also, denying yourself at any time in the marriage, especially for the greater good of the marriage, children and spouses, is a great good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would seem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6697" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T10:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have two kids and I've never thought about sex this much in my life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6698" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T10:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">we want to be better than habituated to venial sin: ergo the interest in this discussion. But i agree that continence leads to closer union with God AND spouse, but thir is only possible by grace and it is inconceivable ( ) in our society: et eam tenebrae non comprehenderunt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews No it wouldn't. It would be better to use the body, as created by God. Which means naturally occurring ebbs and flows to fertility. God created the body to carry life only sometimes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6700" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I bring it up to say that a procreative intent even if the chances of conception are low.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is important to remember that the process of moral growth and development is practical. It is not open to an imposition of ideals. We should not be surprised if most of us take a long time to achieve sanctity. Indeed, the Fathers say that sanctity in marriage progresses at a "hen's pace" (i.e. slowly).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6702" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caroline King" data-date="2014-08-29T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caroline King at 2014-08-29T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure: <br />The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146 <br />2363 The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Caroline King" data-date="2014-08-29T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caroline King at 2014-08-29T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Backing your play Bekah Sims Andrews </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6704" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as I can tell, there is only one mere creature to whom one can wholly commit oneself that will in no way hinder your growth in holiness, and rather further it, and that is the Blessed Virgin Mary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6705" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation." This is the whole question. What does this mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6706" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T10:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">so do I need to become a hermit or not, because if I'm going to make it into the foothills I can see from here before Marie wakes up (don't judge! We're not on Eastern time right now) I'm gonna have to hustle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6707" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is a false statement: The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6708" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caroline King" data-date="2014-08-29T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caroline King at 2014-08-29T10:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">From the catechism Daniel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim, you probably aren't being called to be a hermit. So I wouldn't try.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6710" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catechism can be wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it is in this case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's good, because I'm betting I'd be TERRIBLE at it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Caroline King" data-date="2014-08-29T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caroline King at 2014-08-29T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, then I won't engage you in further debate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, great distinctions above. thanks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"For in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends [beyond procreation], such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscencce which hsband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the insrinsic nature of the act is preserved."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6716" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Yeah, I don't think we can achieve common ground if we don't accept the Catechism at face value.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caroline you should read Casti Conubii.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6718" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know a woman who helped write it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">She will tell you the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6720" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a twofold good of marriage as a community of life</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Why does Casti Conubii trump the Catechism? Shouldn't they both be read together? It's not one or the other. It's both together, with ALL the Church teaching on marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is not a twofold purpose, as though one can order marriage to either the union of the spouses or procreation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6723" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rather,the Church teaches that procreation is the primary end and union or good of spouses is secondary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6724" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catechism is not promulgated dogmatically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6725" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews That's not what the Church says. It says the two cannot be separated from each other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6726" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or even doctrinally..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6727" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there is an order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6729" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews The Catechism is said to be , by the Church, free of error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6730" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T10:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC has gone through editions bc of mistakes. Catechism of trent is much better: there are many things NOT even in the CCC and they are soooo helpful / ok you can open your eyes again </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6731" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catechism is part of the Church's official teaching in the sense that it was suggested by a Synod of Bishops, requested by the Holy Father, prepared and revised by bishops and promulgated by the Holy Father as part of his ordinary Magisterium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6732" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.usccb.org/.../frequently-asked-questions-about...<br />Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the Catholic Church<br />Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the...<br />USCCB.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Encyclicals are generally part of the extraordinary magesterium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catechism part of the ordinary magesterium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6735" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is why I take encyclicals over Catechisms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC is a great place to start, but the reason they reference original documents is because they are not sufficient.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The worldly evidence of people having a sacramental marriage who cannot conceive is dealt with only as the highest good is that of only committing habitual venial sin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6738" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or a Josephite marriage (shudder)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please convey this to your friend, Caroline, Bekah Sims Andrews. I am afraid I might have scandalized her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6740" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie, I think that is a more difficult case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6741" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I assume that they are open to and desire children, even if it seems unlikely (even very unlikely) that they will conceive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But a pretty day to day real one nonetheless?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not necessesarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Intention is everything in moral acts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6746" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T10:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this really happening?<br />"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion." John Paul II also stated that the Catechism "is given as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6747" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ALMOST 7000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough. It is everything when evaluating the blame or praiseworthiness of an act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6749" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Intention is everything in moral acts"<br />Mmmmkay well someone needs work on his Moral Theology.<br />http://www.vatican.va/.../hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis...<br />Veritatis splendor, Encyclical Letter, John Paul II<br />The splendour of truth shines forth in all the works of the Creator and, in a special way, in man, created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen 1:26). Truth enlightens man's intelligence and shapes his freedom, leading him to know and love the Lord. Hence the Psalmist prays: "Let the light of y…<br />VATICAN.VA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, I think this series is going to really help my coment count.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6751" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I meant is that intention is what is formal to a moral act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The Catechism is part of the Church's ordinary teaching authority."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I'll pass it along to Caroline. And maybe her brother as well. http://catholicapologeticsacademy.com/faculty/jim-burnham/ <br />Jim Burnham - Catholic Apologetics Academy<br />Jim Burnham currently serves as the director of San Juan...<br />CATHOLICAPOLOGETICSACADEMY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. I have read Veritatis Splendor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I have studied and taught moral theology for 8 years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6756" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T10:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, Object is what is considered most formal to determine whether an act is praiseworthy or blameworthy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pardon me if I slipped in my precision.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I am not going to have this debate with you right now. I am in the middle of another one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I will say is, what determines the object?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6760" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T10:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Oh no. Don't debate me.....I'm supposed to be doing countless other things. Really, gotta go!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6761" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you went to TAC, Daniel Lendman. We aren't ALLOWED to read magisterial documents!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6762" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn. I am found out!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6763" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T10:57:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm done working out....but now there is too much...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6764" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now it is known that I am a Puritanical magesterium quoting, non-dull academic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T10:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like this is not the sort of thread where one can confine oneself to a discussion with one person. Engage the mob, or not at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6766" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T10:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I remember all the Magisterial documents were locked up in a cage. You had to get special permission just to LOOK at them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6767" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thread has no rules.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6768" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T10:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to point out to everyone that Pater Edmund affirmed my earlier, highly disputed statements about the church Fathers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Puritan with two kids less than a year apart </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6770" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng, your paper on the moral act would come in handy, now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6772" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T10:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The CCC stuff should lead nicely into the upcoming SSPX debacle, I mean debate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T10:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember editing that paper...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6774" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T10:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Magisterium magisterium magisterium!!!!<br />Ima quote paragraph 75 now!<br />"The morality of the human act depends primarily and fundamentally on the "object" rationally chosen by the deliberate will"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6775" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am leaving if SSPX comes up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6776" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes I wonder if you people are real people or if I dream you all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6777" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will have to look for it...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then we are agreed, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then I remember that my imagination is not nearly this good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6780" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I want that paper too!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6781" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">However we can further analyze the object into formal and material elements.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"><<<I think that Joel HF is right, though, that you would have to account for this verse: "Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.">>></p>
</li>
<li id="post_6783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please let's not get into the whole SSPX thing, that's worse than the NFP thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's my short ACPA version...not sure what you need I'm not caught up LOL<br />http://www.scribd.com/.../Andrew-M-Lang-ACPA-2009-Article</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going back to that, I would say that there isn't anything I need to account for in that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6786" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A good source is Fr. Pilsner's book on the Object of the Act. Too bad it's like $100.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's another post!<br />"By the object of a given moral act, then, one cannot mean a process or an event of the merely physical order, to be assessed on the basis of its ability to bring about a given state of affairs in the outside world. Rather, that object is the proximate end of a deliberate decision which determines the act of willing on the part of the acting person. Consequently, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, "there are certain specific kinds of behaviour that are always wrong to choose, because choosing them involves a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil".127 And Saint Thomas observes that "it often happens that man acts with a good intention, but without spiritual gain, because he lacks a good will. Let us say that someone robs in order to feed the poor: in this case, even though the intention is good, the uprightness of the will is lacking. Consequently, no evil done with a good intention can be excused. 'There are those who say: And why not do evil that good may come? Their condemnation is just' (Rom 3:8)"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Outstanding book</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, i dont think anyone here would go to bat for the SSPX. I am closest and wouldnt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6790" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fasting from sex sometimes is recommended, doesn't mean it's usually venially sinful, or whatever Big Angry is claiming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6791" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a really nice guy. ALthough I remember telling him I was using his book to critique Finnis. Then Dr. Jensen pulled me aside to tell me Finnis directed Pilsner's dissertation. FOOT IN MOUTH.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ lol!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Joel, preventing of lust is one of the purposes of marriage. So what? It's not the only purpose, or the main one, it just happens to be the one Paul mentions there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6794" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, everyone, for reminding me that I am a mental midget.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never held that abstinence is venially sinful, neither, to my knowledge, did the Fathers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6796" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great story John Boyer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well then avoiding conception through abstinence can't be venially sinful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6798" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Instead of talking about SSPX or NFP, we could always talk about lying to a Nazi when you are hiding Jews in your house. That should be good for several hundred comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least not as an abuse of sex, possibly as an abuse of some other kind, like generosity or something</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And we have Thomas for that one! (More directly!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6801" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel brought that up Samantha because your account of why St. Paul recommends against marriage only included "serving the Gospel." <br />The point is that is seems from that text that St. Paul is encouraging celibacy and allowing the conjugal act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, he's encouraging celibacy and allowing marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6803" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't figure out how to post my MA thesis, I can email a copy if anyone needs it LOL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a very different point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6805" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">7000 "at"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes please!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6807" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw: try dropbox and sharing publicly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6808" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the act of abstinence is not intrinsically bad, and if the act of having sex at infertile periods is not intrinsically wrong, the intention will have to give species, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6809" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"This is a false statement: The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life."<br />I'd say it's less wrong than imprecise and given to misinterpretation, Daniel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6810" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(These are times I go to Joshua Kenz and his million moral manuals just waiting to be combed through)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6811" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't. Cause he'll just post 10 paragraphs in Latin and it will take too long to translate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Albigensianism is fun!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6813" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does this work? <br />http://www.scribd.com/.../Andrew-Lang-MA-Thesis-Complete...<br />Andrew Lang MA Thesis Complete Archival Version 4-1-11<br />Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.<br />SCRIBD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YARP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6815" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question comes to this: If one engages in the conjugal act with the intention of avoiding pregnancy, the question comes to this, "why?" <br />St. Paul seems to encourage spouses to periods of continence and says that if they can't do to temptation (to lust) then they should engage in the marital act. <br />Spousal unity can be attained and perfectly so in marriage, without the conjugal act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_6817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I ask for the dummy version)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Paul would love it if everyone would stay single and devote themselves to spreading the gospel. However, he recognizes that some people would burn up with passion if they did that, so he admits that marriage is perfectly fine thing to do. He's not really even talking about sex</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6819" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are joining up passages that don't go together. He is not saying spouses should only have sex if they can't stay continent. That is just not there at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that agrees with what Daniel just said... The first paragraph you posted</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Derp</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6823" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is moving too fast. This thread is life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If then, one can obtain the perfection of marital unity without the conjugal act, then it seems that the only reason one would seek the conjugal act for the marriage union and not engage in the higher and more unitive practice of continence would be due to some weakness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6825" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This weakness, the Fathers would hold, is generally lust.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or more generally, concupiscence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6827" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think Daniel's claim is that forgoing sex at some time is intrinsically wrong. But that deliberately avoiding sex to prevent children is intrinsically wrong because in that case one is willing to avoid children.<br />Kinda like fasting is not intrinsically wrong but going on a hunger strike is .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What??? Who says you can obtain the perfection of marital unity without the conjugal act? That is just... ugh... blargh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'm going to be ill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, the imprecision of the cycle is irrelevant because all that means is that one would act differently to achieve the end one is willing/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, that sounds rather NNL to me. Violate basic goods much? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is deliberately engaging in the marital act without the intention of having children is likely venially sinful .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6834" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or . . . . . Daniel to beget children. ^^^^^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, Joseph and Mary say it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHY WHY WHY is it likely venially sinful?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6837" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And remember the intention need not be front and center.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6838" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't think so, NNL's mistake involves not ordering the basic goods</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because of concupiscence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What? Where?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We simply do not have full control over our appetites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Least of all in the conjugal act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Augustine argues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do we have to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6845" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, intention is sometimes front and senter, Boyer: if someone _intends_ to murder but fails to for some reason, that intention is a sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said above that intention can give species.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not asking Augustine I'm asking you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6848" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because the proper order in humans is that the appetites are subject to reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But intention also includes the object of the act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6850" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Daniel's position here is that it does give the species.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But is the intention present in the abstaince or in the act during "infertile periods"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6852" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just don't know what not having "full control over our appetites" means in the case of married sex.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6853" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, Samantha, it would be perhaps better say, the proper order in humans is that the appetites function reasonably.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can have a continuous intention that every sexual act be directed toward new life insofar as each sexual act is performed in the proper way (non-contraceptively).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I think that is precisely the problem...and a result of the fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am not certain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what's unreasonable about wanting to have sex with your spouse?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6858" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I repeat: I AM NOT CERTAIN.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, lets be clear here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6860" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Oh is Peregrine back? Would someone PLEASE ask him how he got a dead guy to give him a blurb for his new book? Seriously! Would love to use that time machine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I have sex during infertile periods, I am not intending not to have children by means of the act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there away to get Facebook to speak these to me so I can get work done? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I just don't know what you mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, well part of "the proper way" is "at the right time"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Intention can only confer species on a moral act in a secondary sense.<br />It seems that the argument is being made is that the sexual act is (in our fallen condition) necessarily spoiled by concupiscence and is therefore in some sense inherently disordered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6867" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, I think so, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . . in accord with right reason. (is that clearer than "reasonably"?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6869" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I can only have sex at the right time or I'm guilty of some defect?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus, asking about intention is secondary to answering the question about object</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6871" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, during a dinner party would imply a defect </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6872" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said it before and I will say it again: To say that the marital act is inherently disordered in any way is an abomination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sigh. Anyway, Joel, did I answer your question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's when I want to have sex the MOST!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6875" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED INN ANY WAY IS AN ABOMINATION.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6876" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That's why you can't have sex with plants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6877" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is happening make the voices stop!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim, that is called reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6879" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's the deal with St. Augustine-- he thinks all sexual desire is lust. He thinks the only proper end of sex is the procreation of children. From that it follow obviously that sex during infertile times is at least venially sinful. But we should not think that sexual desire within marriage is lust!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, that it seems to me that you're saying, Daniel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"he thinks all sexual desire is lust. He thinks the only proper end of sex is the procreation of children." <br />I don't think the first thing is true Samantha. <br />I know the second thing is not true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with this: But we should not think that sexual desire within marriage is lust!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6883" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Based on her likes, Lauren Ogrodnick is my hype man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fine. I'll go find some quotes later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6885" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe my position is not Dan's. I just think St. Paul counsels (but doesn't command) a certain degree of abstinence in marriage. How one gets from there to venial sin, I don't see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6886" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine doesnt say ALL sexual desire is sinful. I find him edifying truly though his sayings be hard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, and my position is not mine, either. I think it is the Father's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6888" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:25:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Hence it should be noted that the conjugal act is sometimes meritorious and without any mortal or venial sin, as when it is directed to the good of procreation and education of a child for the worship of God; for then it is an act of religion; or when it is performed for the sake of rendering the debt, it is an act of justice. But every virtuous act is meritorious, if it is performed with charity. But sometimes it is accompanied with venial sin, namely, when one is excited to the matrimonial act by concupiscence, which nevertheless stays within the limits of the marriage, namely, that he is content with his wife only. But sometimes it is performed with mortal sin, as when concupiscence is carried beyond the limits of the marriage; for example, when the husband approaches the wife with the idea that he would just as gladly or more gladly approach another woman. In the first way, therefore, the act of marriage requires no concession; in the second way it obtains a concession, inasmuch as someone consenting to concupiscence toward the wife is not guilty of mortal sin; in the third way there is absolutely no concession."<br />http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2012/05/act-of-religion.html</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I am very willing to be corrected about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6890" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Paul *permits* periodic continence for the purpose of prayer if both spouses consent. That's not exactly the same as counseling a certain degree of abstinence in marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6891" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:26:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">(If I could have "liked" comments through TAC I would have not been told I don't participate enough )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HA!<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6893" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(BTW, that was Aquinas on a relevant passage)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, what is that citation exactly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6895" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T11:27:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, Lauren, I think all the quiet people in section should have been given "yea" and "nay" signs to hold up during appropriate times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's in the linked blogpost</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and to be clear again: TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED IN ANY WAY IS AN ABOMINATION.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6898" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T11:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas's commentary on 1 Corinthians (section 329)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've got three minutes until my self-appointed cut off time. Come at me, y'all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^SINNER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One more time for good measure: TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED IN ANY WAY IS AN ABOMINATION.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6902" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry that was rude, I don't know you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6903" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I also think I'm probably right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^My position and the Church's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6905" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, that's all right. That's one safe thing to call everyone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6906" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It could be a new greeting: What up, my sinner?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6907" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the extent of my expertise in moral theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peace out. I'll be back to read Pater Edmund's probably horrible post later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6909" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is what I suspect the Fathera and St. Thomas would say regarding sexual intercourse intentionally carried out during times of infertility: every virtuous act is meritorious, if it is performed with charity. But sometimes it is accompanied with venial sin, namely, when one is excited to the matrimonial act by concupiscence, which nevertheless stays within the limits of the marriage, namely, that he is content with his wife only.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6910" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Namely, that it is excited by concupiscence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6911" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only if that concupiscence is an antecedent passion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, what are the stats?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, Ed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to be moving up in the ranks, now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6916" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have been posting and double posting at a heroic pace</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still haven't figured out how it could be sinful to abstain from something I'm not required to do.<br />I am not required to say the rosary (though it is a good thing to do so) but there is no sin in not saying it, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6918" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, I have a feeling several people on here never heard that they don't participate enough....... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">causing troubles, mb. Always. And i just had it all figured out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I really want to know. How is it sinful to avoid what is not necessary to do</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6921" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have three more practical points about this: <br />1. Would someone really trust himself to not be motivated by lust, or selfishness when one does pursue the marital act intentionally during times of infertility. <br />2. Chances are, this is not something most of us should worry too much about at this time. Most of us probably have to stop cursing our brother in our hearts, or pride, or something far more serious. <br />3. Do not be surprised by the fact that you likely commit hundreds of venial sins a day, if not more. Perfection can take a long time, and one cannot force it. We must "let ourselves be seduced" by the Lord.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6922" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless there's some magisterial document telling me I have to have sex</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6923" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I never pursue the marital act unintentionally....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6924" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Fathers might argue that you have an obligation to humanity and the Church to procreate and educate children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6925" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but dont stop saying the rosary. These days it is the mandatory weapon. THE weapon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6926" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and all of my kids were intended unintentionally</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lolol Scott Weinberg is a PEN NAME?!?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6928" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My first was born 40 weeks to the day after we got married.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6929" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My second was born 11 months (10 months and 28 days) later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6930" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this some sort of Catholic oneupmanship?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My first took her time and is continuing to take her time...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will let you guess about inentionallity Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim. Always.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6934" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T11:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've long suspected this thread was some kind of subtle virility contest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^But not really.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6936" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My impression as a poet is that TAC has a disordered curriculum where sacred theology is objectified by the Church Father's metaphysics of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was meant to be a comment upon practical inentionallity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6938" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">also, my wife's pregnancies have run about 42 weeks soooooo SINNER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6939" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would seem then that "as a poet" = asinine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6940" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry, again, rude, I don't know what's wrong with me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6941" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_6942" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the thread, Tim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"inentionallity?" Krasevac would kill you Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not your fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shhhh! Don't tell me that Tim!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6947" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">even using NFP isn't necessarily "closed" to the creation of life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to Krasevac, that is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a barbarian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6950" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ don't worry he'd employ double effect reasoning (DER)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6951" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am a barbarian who is totally going to better my stats on the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6952" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you'll have to work hard to catch number two....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6953" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">8 under 14 (but dont tell my wife its just a virility contest. That could spell a long spell of unintended non intercourse )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6954" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know, I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6955" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love how this thread has become dominated by the class of '06</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6956" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">A practical problem with the way NFP is taught, or at least perceived. It's not "contraception for catholics." That would mean, ultimately, that the Church approves of contraception in the main, but disapproves of certain means of contracepting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am content with third place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have to be perfect, now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6959" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">after 8 years, you apparently know everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6960" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is, in fact, one of the practical points I made above about marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6961" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">after 8 years you know everything?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6962" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading the comments in strict succession is a great way to enter into the madness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6963" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">because I've been married longer than that, and I just don't know.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6964" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">When NFP first became "a thing" the ordinary magesterium was very clear that it was tolerated, not encouraged</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6965" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I remember when I was learning about it from Scott and Kimberly Hahn (via cds) they mentioned how it should be carried out with a kind of sadness, that circumstances demand this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That seems to be in keeping with the tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a special thank you to Lauren Ogrodnick for the reminded about the Church's stance on NFP when it first became big.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6968" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's the it that we're carrying out with sadness? I may be doing it wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6969" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That one must avoid pregnancy but cannot do so with unmitigated continence is a sad thing. That there are circumstances so serious and that one cannot simply have children without care is a sad thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6970" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fact you can't afford kids to such an extent that you have to give up bonking for a while</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6971" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not promoting women being "Baby factories" either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6973" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay mister two kids in eleven months</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6974" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:53:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I AM promoting Baby Factories which are factories staffed by babies. That would be ADORABLE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6975" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(NB: if it's not ENTIRELY OBVIOUS, none of my contributions are serious much at all.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6976" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - move to Indonesia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6977" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is, is that if one cannot have children for any reason, it is certainly better to abstain simply, until circumstances are such that they are favorable to children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6978" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^good luck with that^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6979" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do the babies make in the factories?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6980" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do babies usually make? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_6981" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T11:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fertilizer factory?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6982" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Knock off Gucci diaper bags</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6983" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question is whether it is venially sinful to do otherwise. I think the fathers would say yes, do to the very high probability (necessity?) that it be done with concupiscence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6984" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">did you just advocate turning babies into fertilizer THIS IS A NEW LOW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">soylent green?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6986" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wave of babies<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF9GJFUnd4I<br />Teen Girl Squad # 6<br />Teen Girl Squad<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6987" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T11:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well we would only eat the irish babies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6988" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, are we finished with NFP, now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is there more to say, really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha "is there more to say"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T11:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">anthropophagi. New low</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6992" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T11:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My video impersonation of the NFP convo<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmd1qMN5Yo0<br />The Shooting AKA Dear Sister<br />Emotions run high in this loose homage to the final moment of the season 2 finale of The O.C. Featuring Shia LaBeouf.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6993" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T11:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because I would really like to talk about how Aristotle and St. Thomas' conception of the soul is essentially the same, contra Ratzinger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6994" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is Shia LeBeouf's greatest performance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6995" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-29T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-29T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">SERIOUSLY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6997" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T12:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey this is nothing! I've been stuck having this conversation on Facebook with all women most who were pregnant or post partum!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you don't believe me, watch it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_6999" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Graph . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Still exponential!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued a declaration reaffirming the ancient faith of the Church. This document had this in particular to say regarding the soul,<br />The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after death, an element endowed with consciousness and will, so that the "human self" subsists. To designate this element, the Church uses the word "soul", the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Tradition. Although not unaware that this term has various meanings in the Bible, the Church thinks that there is no valid reason for rejecting it; moreover, she considers that the use of some word as a vehicle is absolutely indispensable in order to support the faith of Christians.1 <br />Then Josef Ratzinger, wrote a commentary on this document and brought it up in relation to the formula adopted by the council of Vienna that the soul is the form of the body. Ratzinger duly noted the Thomistic connection of this formula and made this comment about St. Thomas Aquinas' appropriation of the Aristotelian conception of soul: “Thomas took this formulation [the soul is the form of the body] and gave it, in terms of his own thought, a fundamentally new significance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">careful scrutiny of both Aristotle's and Thomas' treatment of the soul, however, makes it difficult to see how Thomas gives the formulation, “the soul is the form of the body” a “fundamentally new significance.” To hold such a position seems to ignore the fact that Thomas treats of the soul in several places, and in different ways. This position seems to stem from the belief that Aristotelian thought regarding the soul as the form of the body is necessarily dualistic. Neither of these positions, finally, seem tenable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I argue that it is in light of revelation, that Thomas is able to approach the soul in a fundamentally new way, but his account of the soul, essentially, is the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T12:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's right Daniel, use the Thread to advance your own agenda </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7006" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one can use the thread. Some merely manifest the Threadness more concretely and fully.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7007" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />788 Michael Beitia<br />720 Peregrine Bonaventure<br />638 Daniel Lendman<br />517 John Ruplinger<br />473 Edward Langley<br />360 JA Escalante<br />313 Isak Benedict<br />291 Matthew J. Peterson<br />219 Catherine Ryland<br />174 Samantha Cohoe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7008" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ask Isak Benedict.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7009" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:07:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks like we have a new reigning windbag </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7010" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T12:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">PB is first in our hearts, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7011" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am happy with a solid third place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7012" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />167 Joel HF<br />166 Pater Edmund<br />159 John Boyer<br />140 Joshua Kenz<br />131 Sam Rocha<br />129 Daniel P. O'Connell<br />123 Lauren Ogrodnick<br />118 Tim Cantu<br />116 Jody Haaf Garneau<br />101 Nina Rachele</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7013" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone has to keep up with you kids</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Keep up the good work, Michael!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />86 Marina Shea<br />86 Frank Morris<br />68 Philip D. Knuffke<br />56 Megan Baird<br />55 Megan Caughron<br />54 Max Summe<br />46 Sean Robertson<br />40 Jason Van Boom<br />39 Aaron Dunkel<br />38 Bekah Sims Andrews</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7016" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T12:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whoa Tim! For not being involved for the first few days you've really made up for it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V35jvY0u7I<br />The Lonely Island - DIAPER MONEY<br />Wack Sunday? For YouTube's Comedy Week we give you DIAPER MONEY iTUNES: http://bit.ly/13w2sxX AMAZON:<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Language Warning^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1 Marie Cantu</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread needs more</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I think that the definition of man as "rational animal" in Aristotelian thought is fundamentally different than "Rational substance conjoined to matter" in St. Thomas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />36 Tom Sundaram<br />33 Katie Duda<br />33 Adrw Lng <br />26 John Kunz<br />20 Clayton Brockman<br />19 John Hall<br />19 Joe Zepeda<br />17 Emily Norppa<br />16 Liam Collins<br />16 Erik Bootsma</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Dunkel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7025" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />15 John Herreid<br />15 Claire Keeler<br />14 Lucy Zepeda<br />14 Aaron Gigliotti<br />13 Kevin Gallagher<br />12 Dominique Martin<br />11 Jeff Neill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although does Aristotle ever say "rational animal"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7027" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In St. Thomas, the soul isn't a "rational substance"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7028" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's Plescartes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Plato - Descartes)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thinking thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7031" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, in the politics he says "zoon echon logon"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is usually translated as "animal having speech"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7033" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and my Greek is worse than my German, so I probably butchered the transliteration)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the Summa, Aquinas approaches humans in the Divine Mode. It is the same account essentially, but it is more perfectly known through Sacred Theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7035" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-29T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-29T12:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since Sacred Theology sees all things proceeding from God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7036" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund now has the title of "longest comment": 1218 words, comment 6669.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7037" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T12:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^SO disappointingly close</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7038" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds like a nominal definition, which implies rational animal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But "logos" also means "reason" in Greek, ritght?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7040" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 95%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">comment 6666: <br />Bekah Sims Andrews<br />Pater Edmund, I have no idea where that comment of yours was made and am too lazy to look for it in the hundreds of comments above.....feel free to repeat it for me. (pretty please)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7041" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thread was 242002 words long.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It can</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7043" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although it looks like someone might be blocking me . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7044" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T12:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do your wives feel about this thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course they are different modes, but Thomas also says that part of man's essence is his act of existence (unlike God where they are the same) does this change, fundamentally, an account of the soul existing after death?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Understandable Ed </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But normally this is because it means it in the sense of "account"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(or at least not letting me see their comments somehow)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rather than the power.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, what Michael?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7051" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think my wife likes this thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Existence is NOT part of man's essence</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is according to Being and Essence</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hard to think of why...what time did you get to bed last night? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">same for angels</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">De Ente 4 says existence is not part of essence. That's why there is a distinction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Otherwise all men, based on what they are, would be always existing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in God, His essence is His act of existing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hence the immortality of the soul?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, because of immateriality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St Thomas also claims that 'part" of man's essence is his act of existing, not fully as in God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7063" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is still a separate act of existence joined to the essence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same for angels.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Direct quote please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, hence the "part"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you would need to determine the way that essentia is being used.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm at "work" c'mon. You'll have to wait until 4 CST and then we'll be waaaay past this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To say existence is part of essence sounds vaugely Suarezian to me, for then form would give esse. Which, at least, is not the Thomistic doctrine. It may be the Aristotelian position, depending on who you ask.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7070" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T12:26:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boyer I usually translate them myself, but I have had many an objector suspect my translations, so I tell them here is the Latin, it says X see for yourself and make them ask....<br />Daniel Lendman, I take it you have read and understood St. Alphonse Liguori on marital relations and found his argument insufficient? Why so? Why is desire for your spouse, e.g., contrary to a virtual intention of procreation/unity? I can see objections if NFP are used ... in fact that is the strongest argument I know against NFP, that it seems you couldn't claim such a virtual intention and would fall into your position, which, in fairness, is Augustinian.<br />But still it should be addressed. When I can (note many hours from now) I will post the argument from Liguori as to why most marital relations are not sinful....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7071" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T12:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was PB banned or did he block me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7072" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Barry Miller, for example, holds that Aristotle doesn't acknowledge the real distinction. I am not sure what I think about Aristotle's view on this (if he explicitly has one). Metaphysics 4 implies he doesn't, where he states to say "Socrates is" is the same as "Socrates is a man."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just joshing ya, Joshua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Bañez has the best take on essence-existence. Essence, in particular form, is like a material cause which receives esse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"a virtual intention" THAT was the term I was searching for above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7076" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T12:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, I am fairly certain that Peregrine Scott actually blocked me!<br />Do I get a prize or something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7077" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A more pleasant facebook experience isn't prize enough?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I think he just disappeared (unless he blocked me too)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7079" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/peregrine.bonaventure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does that work for you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7081" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or perhaps Facebook is responding to Isak Benedict</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7082" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">reporting him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">gotta get my post count up . ..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7084" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Troll pelt and whatnot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T12:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. But I still feel vindicated...I did report every single picture of his</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7086" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, neither. I think he's taking a break to magisteriize!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"utrum essentia lineae infinitae est 'esse' suum? Respondeo 'esse' essentiam lineae quae finem habere non potest esse quia . . . . " (Quaestio innumerabilis) No. I cant pretend to argue that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But John, I was trying to change the subject from NFP, though I'm not wedded to any particular notion of being and essence, I wrote one of the appendices to my thesis on being and essence. Now it is a little less distinct. I'd have to look it up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The same thesis that Descartes wrote?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wait, has the mob/witch hunt been sated?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7091" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T12:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find it funny that Daniel has been repeatedly called a puritan. My in person conversations with him generally involve me implying that he's a laxist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7092" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T12:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, Tim. It only answers the real unstated question of the thread: "how many posts does it take TACers to detect and kill a troll."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7093" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too many.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7094" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T12:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">puritan name calling was unfair. He EMPHATICALLY denied it many times and thereby padded his post numbers and passed me in the rankings as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7095" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do believe I have been excommunicated by Pope Pinhead Peregrine!! Is anyone able still to see his comments? If he blocked me personally, that hurts my feelings. I wanted to have his babies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7096" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T12:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I think all of the reporting finally took.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7097" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">METAPHYSICS ÜBER ALLES.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, an existential Thomist just took over me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T13:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">he is dead and gone, Isak, he is dead and gone. At his head a grass green turf, at his heels a stone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7100" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T12:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7101" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is a nit to pick with TAC. See if this gets the comment mill going: TAC should treat logic like Latin and teach it using a formal text, rather than relying on students gleaning bits and pieces from the Organon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, they probably locked his account while it gets "sorted out"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7103" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It appears his account is gone or down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7104" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know how I feel about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you don't know logic clearly, you suffer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7106" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, put Wittgenstein into Senior Seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lord knows there's plenty of room because no church documents ever get read during senior seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7108" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer: that would assume we teach the liberal arts as arts. Which we kinda do but not really.<br />Logic, Rhetoric, and Grammar would need way more drilling and workbooks if we really taught them as liberal arts.<br />It's a judgment call, as they are also trying to do the Great Books thing and the Aristotle-Thomas thing, but you are right: they aren't taught as arts per se.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T13:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow. You killed him!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. I mean, that would be the reason. Great books are great and all, but the liberal arts, as tools for approaching the great books, are needed. I understand it's hard to strike a balance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T13:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">an epitaph an epitaph . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has senior math been codified yet? They could do symbolic logic as part of senior math, since it's so math-y.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7113" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">He could rise from the grave at any time. Are all his comments gone?<br />That will make this thread hilariously convoluted - well, more than it currently is, I guess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, comments have to be individually deleted, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7115" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ideally a strong base for the trivium is set in High school, of course, but...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7116" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that's a big but. A but worthy of Sir Mix-A-Lot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i would spend the time on more latin instead a la WCC. (Grammar first.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7118" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T13:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now we'll all look like King Lear in the storm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7119" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really think he organon should stay. Even if it doesn't teach logic particularly well: which, honestly, dropped a lot on the tutor and the students: most of the prior analytics and on interpretation is pretty straightforward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7120" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that the organon should stay. It is important. And many issues come up which must be dealt with in a more discursive manner (categories, truth or lack thereof of future conditionals)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7121" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, st. Thomas refers to the organon way too much to go into him without having read a good chunk of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed about the organon!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7124" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T13:12:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/.../solemn-high-requiem.../<br />Let's discuss.<br />Solemn High Requiem Mass Held For The Spirit Of Vatican II | Eye of the Tiber<br />CINCINNATI, OH- A Solemn High Requiem Mass was...<br />EYEOFTHETIBER.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7125" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard because they can't be all things. Ideally, I think, one would train in the arts as arts, which would incorporate parts of the organon or some version of it and be more textbook/workbooky - and then you'd study the organon philosophically separately.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7126" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Summer session for incoming freshmen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[2 trolls in one day!!^^^ ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7128" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">An intensive logic course?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7129" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matrix style downloading of logic...and kung fu?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7130" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">They should just make freshman listen to Duane Berquist lecture on logic after freshman year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7131" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:21:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">he did this last time as "Scott Weinburg" deletes the account and then the specter of Bonbon returns ever again. Est nihil novum sub soli</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's talk about kung fu. For Aristotle, liberal arts without gymnastic would be sort of nuts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7133" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">kung fu means the same as μαθηματικά, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be nice if they included Aristotle on generation of animals. It would make people think twice before facilely dismissing his embryology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JAson, isn't heavy drinking gymnastic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7136" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, JA, are you saying we have to ride horses now, like a certain *other* college?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7137" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T13:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BLOW WINDS, CRACK YOUR CHEEKS! RAAAAAGE, BLOOOOW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7138" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And John, much earlier in TNET I said that I left TAC after soph year because I wanted scholastic logic (and natural phil) taught me in lecture form, rather than debating the Organon with a bunch of 17 yr old homeschoolers, so I agree with you there completely</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which beer to buy..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7140" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it would make a world of difference if TAC just straight up taught John of St Thomas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7141" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, some of us weren't homeschooled. SOME of us knew math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7142" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In latin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7143" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and no, no horses, but certainly kung fu</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">doesn't it mean the same as mathematics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i believe the Greeks called their kung fu 'Pyrrhic Dance'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7146" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no I mean a direct transliteration in to English</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7147" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or as Michael Beitia calls it "Baccanlian rites at the Rocks"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha!<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7149" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T13:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quaeritur: if TNET were added to the curriculum, where would it belong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7150" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T13:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do believe that although I have taken the troll hide and made some very comfortable long johns with it, Pope Peregrine may end up making use of this magical serum or cream and return to troll us all again!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They were called "the F*&cking drunk rocks" in my day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7152" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seminar. It would be the first reading of the semester. Students would either read it all summer or be cramming it the night before term started.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I preferred The Tree, until that was banned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the pit was verboten by the time I started.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7155" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim - TNET is never added to a curriculum and belongs nowhere. The real question is where does the curriculum belong in TNET? #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nothing compares to going down into the pit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7157" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Added to the curriculum? It is self evident that TNET ought to * replace * the entire clap-trap they currently call a "curriculum."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7158" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Beitia no, kung fu translates roughly as "techne"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7159" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the creek glistened with the glass of broken bottles, like a stained glass temple to excess</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">roughly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7161" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The current drinking spot (I think they call it "downtown") is, I believe, roughly where the old pit was located.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what does mathematics translate into</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7163" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Christopher Luke" data-date="2014-08-29T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Luke at 2014-08-29T13:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trevilla This thread approaches 'Abomination in the sight of' status. Kinda like it scream 'We are legion and we will suck you in!'<br />*quickly runs away*<br />*fails*<br />*reads comments*<br />*reaches his comment*<br />*dies*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the geography of the place changed a bit after the floods of 05.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">same happened in 98-99 (the great el nino)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^last floods I heard of were fall '05?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the one lane road</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7168" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Pit was scriptural.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7169" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Christopher Luke" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Luke at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trevilla Damn notifications. <br />I am now doomed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7170" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I am counted among those who go down to the pit"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">remember trying to hit "down below" with empties?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or was that just me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7173" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Editted b/c I only got there in 01 (?) and it was Junior year that the great flood came. So it would be in January of 05.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">μαθησες means learning......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone else go to the cliffs before they got banned too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weren't you a prefect, Peterson? The job description must have been different, back in the day...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7177" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson was a sinner</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7178" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I started out as informal prefect of the Pit, junior year. RISE. I rose from the pit. And then they crowned me a prefect of the people senior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and thus he got tapped by the Gestapo to work for the Man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In those two years the pit was an excellent place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">they made him an "offer he couldnt refuse"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7182" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">he was "rehabilitated"....this is the origin of his TAC Stockholm Syndrome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7183" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">good, we gone from drinking spots to how Peterson sold out on us. My favorite drinking spot was room 316.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I took like 2 full garbage bags of empty whiskey bottles out after graduation. Got some funny looks from some lovely tutors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7185" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"but save a prayer for Lefty too, he only did what he had to do, and now he's growing old"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7186" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nonsense. They wanted to convert me. Little did they know I was going to do that anyway. So I took their bait and tried to protect the people the best I could.<br />And sometimes that meant that those who didn't check in their booze, and yet left it in my refrigerator, would "pay the tax" as I called it when I drank free beer at the pit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7187" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Last I heard downtown, which is now a parking lot, has been frequented by the police in the last couple years</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bet that puts a damper on things</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never been back. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Admit it Peterson, you're a sellout</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Back then they always had one "token" prefect who was a "project."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Lincoln was a tyrant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where was the pit anyway? I was never sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7194" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"He plucked me out of a pit of confusion, even out of the quicksand; he placed my feet on a rock and established my steps" Psalm 40:2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7195" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Mountain Goats Psalm 40:2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcmDXkwwR4c<br />The Mountain Goats - Psalms 40:2<br />"Psalms 40:2," by the Mountain Goats Off the 2009 album, "The Life of the World to Come." Let me know if you have...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(reverential silence)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the pit was out the front gate, turn right, and go into the dirt parking lot and back a little way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we had pallets for seats until we burned them all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T13:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we used to drink under the bridge too, when it was raining</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-29T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-29T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mighta spent more time there than in class. I'm not sure. I didn't keep exact records.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I felt I contributed mightily to the common good in that role. I was a man without a country anyhow, as my original class was gone and graduated. And the place was so small and silly my reputation was already set in stone, and I felt imprisoned in it. Sad time, senior year. But being a prefect had nothing to do with it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I enjoyed locking campus up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7204" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">did your sadness contribute to your Lincoln adulation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7205" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-29T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-29T13:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You were a prefect? Eww, and, whoa!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was shut down a few weeks into my freshman year. As I recall a certain smelly Senior, despite warnings, kept throwning and breaking beer bottles and the ranchers got huffy and then the pronouncement came: drinking on rancher property was an expellable offense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7207" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some took to federal property.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7208" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some to their rooms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there was great mourning on that day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-29T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-29T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that was a keraaazy day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I missed smoker's alley. The patio was too expansive, no Nietzschean horizons....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best part of locking up was ignoring all the doors that were perpetually broken, as well as reaching around Dr. Dillon's office window to "lock" his door, which was what I was told to do as we didn't have a key for it or some such.<br />"Diss work study - like communism."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-29T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-29T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">rich marotti came out onto the smokers' patio after the announcement, rent his garments (buttons actually flew off his shirt) and rubbed dirt onto his forehead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7214" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I divorced my roommate at the end of freshman year when he told me that the Man had asked him to be a prefect</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7215" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-29T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-29T13:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The best part of locking up is folgers in your cup"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's meditate on this: "I enjoyed locking up campus"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LOCKING UP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the best part of "locking up" the library was having leeway as to 11 p.m.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7220" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You were scared of THE LAW, JA Escalante. Why? Why did you fear the strictures most necessary and wholesome for the common good?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Calvinists....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is roughly where downtown was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-08-29T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-08-29T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">when it comes through the imperfect filter of corruptible man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7224" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't trust a police which thinks the common good is divisible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I say, it was fun because it was a pointless exercise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7226" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">remember those hours tickets? "you have taken from the common good"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7228" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a philosophic absurdity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7229" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I remember them. Which is why I am very leery of all the "common good" spouting graduates...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7230" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a hole in the elbow of a long-sleeved undershirt...... how did that take away from the common good?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7231" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">a police which thinks you can take a chunk out of the common good is basically the KGB</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7232" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Personally I liked the rocks: especially because the long walk back was great for scaring tipsy people with tales of mountain lions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7233" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-29T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-29T13:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and frankly Peterson the Law feared me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7234" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those same people want a confessional state that would serve as one, gigantic TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not mentioning any names, Lauren Ogrodnick</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's probably true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">alien retreaval team, as long as were waxing nostalgic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7238" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, TNET has failed me, I asked for beer recommendations and now it's too late.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7239" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T14:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The walk back from the rocks was great b/c every once in a while, some drunk would ride the oil rigs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7240" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matt Wall" data-date="2014-08-29T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matt Wall at 2014-08-29T14:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Amazing choices for their thesis titles....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7241" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel Morehouse" data-date="2014-08-29T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel Morehouse at 2014-08-29T14:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is it possible this thread has 7436 comments?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7242" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">These fellows did yeoman's work last night. When I went to bed this thread hadn't even reached 6,666.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never too late for beer, Edward. I am a big fan of Bear Republic's Racer 5 myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too late as in I'm no longer at the store.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh well. There's always next time. What did you get?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, you are in DC, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7247" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got a flying dog "snake dog ipa"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7249" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a local brew from Frederick, MD</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7250" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure it's there, but it should be: Bell's Two-Hearted Ale.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T14:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same brewery as the Raging Bitch. Does it have Ralph Steadman illustrations on the box?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the flying dog beers do</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7253" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel O'Connell nailed it with the Two Hearted recommendation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't hurt that it's named after one of Hemmingway's Nick Adams stories.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I try to only drink local, but I have sampled the flying dog, bells, and, well, most others</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7256" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T14:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bells is pretty local...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7257" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_7258" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only go micro-local</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7259" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">5 mile radius</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7260" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T14:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hipster alert! Hipster alert!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7261" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">meaning homebrew?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'M JOKING!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's generally my rule for coffee</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my new favorite is "Anger" by Greenbush brewing in Wisconsin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=656290994413287&set=pb.100000971786144.-2207520000.1409336575.&type=3&theater<br />Michael Beitia<br />Facebook life events cannot be false</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was never tipsy on the way back but some jerks liked to freak me out about wild animals </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7267" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are those books approved by the Magisterium?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw a mountain lion there once on campus. Freaked me out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why I found a house to have a drink at regularly instead of the middle of the forest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Umm . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw one on campus two days into Christmas holidays!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"the venerable Bede" is one of them, Edward. jerk....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7273" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T14:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Venerable Bede" would be a great name for a beer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bell's, Dark Horse, and Jolly Pumpkin are the three most local breweries to me (in Ann Arbor).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you think of Lakefront, Michael?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-08-29T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-08-29T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ann Arbor? condolences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7277" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my favorite local is RevBrew, amirite, Katie?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7278" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like lakefront's extended play IPA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7279" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then there's this . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can I like that twice?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7281" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and this . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Condolences?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7283" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T14:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now I want a drink.... But that probably wouldn't help bring on labor...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7284" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://existentialcomics.com/comic/14<br />How Philosophy is Made - Existential Comics<br />EXISTENTIALCOMICS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7285" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is worthwhile, if different</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a good beer to spring on the unsuspecting, like Daniel Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7287" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T14:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is 'the entertainment' spoken of in Infinite Jest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7288" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is an interesting post on designing online forums: http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-just-in-time-theory/<br />The "Just In Time" Theory of User Behavior<br />18 Jul 2014 The "Just In Time" Theory of User Behavior I've long believed that the design of your software has a...<br />BLOG.CODINGHORROR.COM<br />August 29 at 2:36pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley (Just in case we need a diversion)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7289" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T14:46:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm in the top ten. What has happened to my life. Someone give me one of those beer.s</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Louis's Sump Coffee roasts some amazing coffee.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Comet Coffee is one of my favorite coffee shops I've run into driving from DC two California twice a year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(apropos of very little)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's Comet Coffee? Is it in the city? Because I don't go to the County except for Trader Joe's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take it you don't mean Comet Coffee in Ann Arbor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, kinda out of the way </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7296" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T14:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">one dead troll, 7500 posts & you're all slobberin drunk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I thought he was still talking about St. Louis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7298" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">5708 Oakland Ave, St Louis, MO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's on the side of I-64</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, I'm just talking about beer. Drinking a nice Guatemalan pour-over from Anthology Coffee in Detroit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you hear gunfire from where you're sitting?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Surprising number of great coffee shops in St. Louis, I am discovering. Nah, we're in South City. Nothing much here but a little low level street harrassment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7303" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found, Lauren Ogrodnick, that drinking beer down by the "Riviera" - spot by the river right before the campus gate - was hazardous for my health. I tripped and fell down those hills so many times. Lost my glasses once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, haha, Edward, were you talking about STL or Detroit? Kind of works for both</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7306" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T14:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now that there's some beering, can we get a little controversy back in here? What do you guys think of Communion in the hand versus Communion on the tongue?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7307" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-29T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-29T14:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh crap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7308" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T14:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only for consecrated hands . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do we have any video yet of the Jesus Montero incident in Boise last night?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well what about extraordinary ministers, Edward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T14:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Tim: http://nypost.com/.../jesus-montero-fights-mariners.../<br />Jesus Montero fights own scout over ice cream sandwich diss<br />Now this is some kind of meltdown. One-time Yankees...<br />NYPOST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7312" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T14:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I've received Communion in my hands ONCE my entire life and I felt so profoundly awkward about it that I never did it again. It just seems more reverent to receive on the tongue, given that my hands are unconsecrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7313" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did once, when the EM was so short I'd probably have been too tall on my knees.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7314" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes I think the National Shrine seeks out midgets to be EMs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BORING. I'm out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well why is receiving in the hands even allowed then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will mentioning NFP bring you back, Samantha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7318" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T15:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha - I have donned the troll skin. Peregrine has transmogrified me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7319" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's why Peregrine, a totally different person from Scott, looked so much like him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It will, Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T15:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DC really is a coffee desert, basically two roasters make coffee for all the local coffee shops: Ceremony (Annapolis, MD) and Counter-Culture (Durham, NC). They're both good, but it gets monotonous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7323" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only go trad. there I said it. It's better than the Novus Ordo anyhoo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although there are a couple newish places that are promising: Viilante Coffee Roasters in Hyattsville, MD and Qualia in DC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7325" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, it's called the "Extra-ordinary Form" kinda like "Extra-ordinary Minister" </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once upon a time in D.C. there was a great shop that roasted its own beans. I think it was called Sirius Coffee. It was over by the Van Ness-UDC metro stop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Dylan Naegele" data-date="2014-08-29T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dylan Naegele at 2014-08-29T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Qualia is ok, but the coffee at Room 11 in Petworth is exceptional. M.E. Swing in Del Ray/North Alexandria is also a good roastery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7328" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T15:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a non-boring Communion story for you! When I was in high school, we often had Mass said in the gym, because it was the only place large enough to accommodate the student body.<br />Anyway, I was a stubborn boy and back then I not only received on the tongue, I also knelt to receive rather than stand. So, this one time we had a bunch of visiting co-celebrant priests and I got in one of their communion lines.<br />I got up there, knelt and opened my mouth, and the priest looked very confused. Then he tried to shove the Host into my mouth, missed, and dropped it on the dirty gym floor. He then said "Oh, shit!" picked it up off the floor, stuck it in my mouth and continued to distribute communion as if nothing had happened.<br />I kid you not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks closed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got to check those out, Dylan</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7331" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had an SSPX priest stop in front of me, snort, and keep going at the communion rail, leaving me with my mouth, stupidly, open. Maybe it was the bright green hair.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the reason it is allowed had to do with the practice becoming common so they gave it a "universal indult" so that the penalty of sin wouldn't be on the people for disobeying the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">needless to say, I've never been back (this was in 99)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7334" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Room 11 isn't too far from CUA either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't even know communion on the tongue was a thing until I was 14/15. . . Yeah. . . That tells you something about my parish/diocese</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7336" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the rock and roll evil or the evilest?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7337" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is worse than evilest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7338" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">What was the Berquist quote? Something like "Some of you will return to your rooms and play The Rolling Stones or Grateful Dead *on your phonographs*"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7339" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only the echt-hipsters, Mr. Berquist--no one else has phonographs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7340" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rock and Roll is the Devil's music.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7341" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T15:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if you play the lyrics of your favorite songs backwards, they say: "I worship Satan, Prince of Darkness."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ordinary vs extraordinary is more like the low mass vs high mass vs solemn high mass. Yes you only get the solemn high once in a while, but it's ultimately better </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7343" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or perhaps "I prefer Plato and Newton to Aristotle and Thomas"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, extraodinary means "this should be unusual and not the norm"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-29T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-29T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I almost bought one of those cabinet phonographs at an estate sale. Seemed excessive, though. I don't own any 78s and I already have a turntable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7346" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(197, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Rock and Roll music will lead one astray from one's true hylomorphic destiny! Beware the Rock and Roll music!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you wise, Joel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Benedict said it should be an option in every parish on Sundays ) but we've discussed this before </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7349" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Extraodinary" doesn't mean anything...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7350" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I understand all the old people at the 4 p.m. Saturday "vigil" are attached to their usual form of worship, and unaccustomed to change, so they can continue to go to the NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7351" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I am the most foolish of men and the wisdom of men is not in me"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do you ask?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7353" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">have you been drinking, Edward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7354" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well a lack of wisdom was the consequence of listening to rock music Mr. Berquist predicted . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7355" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm screwed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7356" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I doubt he's working on his thesis . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7357" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes it was. In my case, I doubt it has much to do with my lack of wisdom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7358" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not a student, btw, if that was in reference to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7359" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Now we also have concerts. I cannot talk about this at length because that could be another lecture all by itself. I will content myself with an assertion. It is my conviction and that of many of my colleagues (and of all of the founders), that there is no philosophy without music, or there is no philosophy without good music. The soul must be disposed to the love of the true and the reasonable and there is no way to do that without music. So the concerts we offer as part of the series are our testimony, however slight, to our conviction that good music is necessary to the philosophical life. The concert series is a small thing; we do not have a great number of concerts. Some of you, perhaps, will go back to your rooms and listen to the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones on your phonographs, and we regret that profoundly. And we think that if you persist in that behavior you will never become wise. We have had only moderate success, so far, in making you aware of that fact. But still we bring it to your attention, and we do this by offering certain concerts in which good music is played, to please you reasonably, to relax the tensions in your souls, and to dispose them rightly to the intellectual efforts that are the principal business of your life."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No it was to Ed </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7361" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Rock and Roll will send you straight to hell.<br />Or so I've been told.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I hope the jocundity of my question didn't pass unnoticed)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My answer would be that like Pythagorous--the first to go by the name "philosopher"--call me not wise, but rather a lover of wisdom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7364" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record, Isak Benedict, I did try to give somewhat of an answer to your in the hand question </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, rock and roll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7366" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did to, but their are many strands that must be woven together to make a thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7367" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">is that kind of like the NFP answer (can't.....stop......trolling.......)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will answer your question once you explain why you insist on being liturgically retrograde.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(BTW, the Anglican Use is the way forward)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somewhat... Though probably limited and qualified a lot. But if simply taken as "not ideal" then yes, I think. (In reference to NFP and in the hand thing)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7371" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">retrograde? If it is a choice between better and worse, I try to use the better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7372" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and I shied away from using superior and inferior, but that's what I meant)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7373" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand the question. Communion must be received on the tongue at the TLM. Easy peasy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7374" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T15:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sidebar: I'm getting whiplash from the topic changes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7375" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As an ex-Anglican I say: like hell it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7376" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">says the guy who reads Thomas instead of Badiou</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you attended on, Joel HF?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Anglican's cherry pick a quote to justify communion on the hand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how's your Zizek studies, going Ed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7380" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is the Anglican use the way forward but the 1962 is retrograde? *confuzzled but don't really want an answer because we've had this convo a million times *</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7381" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, born and raised in a "anglo-catholic" parish, till I converted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7382" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How's your bridge, Michael Beitia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">welcome home....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We should start a kickstarter, "Build a bridge for the troll"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7386" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_7387" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, why do you study that old dusty Thomas instead of the shiny new exciting Zizek?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The 1928 Book of Common prayer is amazing prose, some of the best the English language ever saw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it isn't the mass of the saints.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/.../slavoj-%C5%BEi...<br />Maverick Philosopher: Slavoj Žižek: Plagiarism Proven<br />Malcolm Pollack has the details. Hats off to our mutual...<br />MAVERICKPHILOSOPHER.TYPEPAD.COM<br />August 29 at 3:34pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley I was unaware that translation and restoration produces an essential change.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but he's newer and appeals to the "kids"<br />he's hip and with it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">if it is translation, it's a bad one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(My main beef is with the insistence on Latin in the liturgy)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the propers are not the same as the readings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7395" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not wedded to Latin, although I find it easier to concentrate, but the changes are NOT just translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which liturgy are you talking about Michael?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not talking about the NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7398" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Tridentine liturgy. but it could be in English</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7399" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Anglican Use liturgy at our parish is basically the EF translated into English with a couple Anglicanisms thrown in</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh... I get it, the Anglo-Catholic rite? never been</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it would be better (from the little I know about it) than the NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7402" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">From the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar to the Old Offertory on through the Last Gospel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7403" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but my older kids say the rosary in Latin, so I may be biased....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7404" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Latin is better. Ask the exorcists </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Latin, the language Jesus spoke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7406" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find it easier to concentrate because I think in English, but not liturgically (caveat: I'm a convert and learned the Mass in Latin first)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7407" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never actually gone to an ordinate Anglican service, though I do want to see what it is like. For day in day out worship, however, I don't want anything to do with Thomas Cramner, no matter how good his prose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7408" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, to be weird and use Vatican II, Latin helps build the "community" of the church since no matter where you go you will understand and it will be the same (yes these are not the best arguments, but those have been used in the past)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you an Anglican, Edward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get that, Michael, and I actually like Latin liturgies from time to time. But I think there is wisdom in the Byzantine tradition of translating to the vernacular.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7411" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ad orientem is important for unity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7412" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never said Jesus spoke it, but it is the language of the Roman Rite. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7413" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Joel HF, my (parent's) family moved to Houston and fell in love with Our Lady of Walsingham.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7414" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Btw, random but, did you know praying the rosary in Latin has the same relaxation and focus benefits as yoga? They did a study on it...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7415" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, also there are at least two different ordinariate rites: a more "traditional one" and a newer one. St. Lukes in DC (who will be at Immaculate Conception on 7th (?) St in a couple weeks) uses the more traditional rite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I met your priest (perhaps?) at your graduation (my brother-in-law was in your class, I suspect). The name Bruce Noble (I think?) ring any bells?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I think he was the Parish Administrator at the time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our old pastor had retired and we were waiting for a new one to be appointed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fr. Noble is quite an amazing person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I graduated in 2012</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7421" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:45:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd take a decently translated (and authorized, of course) English version of the TLM over a Latin NO. I'm not sure if I'm typical in this regard, and while I think having a Latin liturgy is important for a whole host of reaons, it isn't the main reason that I prefer the TLM.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7422" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^exactly^ (in Homer Simpson voice)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7423" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T15:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same here... But Id still prefer it in Latin ideally. . . </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7424" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm also tied to it because my sons serve it. They made $80 at the last nuptial Mass!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7425" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">inflation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7426" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson is going to be throwing around some comments about "crusty trads" and "hehs" fast and furious any minute now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7427" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">just ask him if he has a method to determine how high to raise his hand during the responsorial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Nevertheless, while we are talking about Aristotle, I shouid like to utilize this opportunity to state the conjecture that this wonderful man discovered DNA."<br />https://www.ini.uzh.ch/.../delbruckAristotleTotleTotle197...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7429" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T15:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HOME TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting. I'll have to check out St. Luke's sometime soon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Particularly if this "more traditional version" is basically an English TLM (w/ the odd anglicanism, of course).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7432" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hate yoga.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe in Rock & Roll!! \m/<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKkIysX2Bow<br />I Still Believe - Frank Turner - Official Video<br />Official video for "I Still Believe", the new single from Frank Turner, taken from the "Rock & Roll" EP, due for release...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7434" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T16:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey let's talk about Medjugorje!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7435" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a policy of not having an opinion on private revelations</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7436" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T16:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's still an opinion^ </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Listen to Frank Turner and it will all be okay</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7438" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If someone claims a prophecy, my attitude is something like "lets wait and see what happens" . . . I've read enough greek classics to know that it's a bad idea to react to prophecies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7439" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://malcolmpollack.com/.../ethics-engineering-and.../<br />Ethics, Engineering, And Driverless Cars – waka waka waka<br />There’s a great deal of buzz lately about self-driving cars. They were the focus of a couple of sessions when I was at Singularity University a couple of years ago, and Google sent one over so we could get a look at it. The consensus at SU was that they confer so many public benefits that their adop…<br />MALCOLMPOLLACK.COM<br />August 29 at 4:18pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Samantha Cohoe I'd like to say how dumb I think the idea of using nfp with sorrow is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, unless you actually are sad that circumstances render it imprudent for you to get pregnant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Setting aside health reasons, what would such circumstances look like? My situation where another child would probably mean a 50% increase in rent?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T16:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*cough* why not to live in hyattsville *cough*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, we have the lowest rent I could find</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a coffee shop about six blocks away</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T16:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah....But we can have as many kids under the age of 24 months here which is what we needed for our two year plan </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It varies, I imagine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, what if you're ecstatic you aren't pregnant? What are you supposed to do, fake it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7448" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(69, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T16:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is it dumb to think it's sad to have to use NFP? Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7449" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm starting to worry that this thread will turn into a mommy blog </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7450" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's dumb to say that anyone using NFP ought to be sad about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh don't worry... I have company 5 minutes away... So I'll be gone shortly </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7452" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please. It's been much worse things than that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-29T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-29T16:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it means sad as depressed and walking around miserable , but because you have to use it there is something missing, in ideal (or even just slightly better) circumstances you would not need to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that, objectively, there is a cause for sorrow. But I don't think it's a moral failing to feel happy or relieved that you aren't pregnant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7455" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(192, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kind of like one might regret that a certain friend isn't at a party without letting that prevent you from having a good time at the party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7456" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I do think there is a lot of philosphical/theological work still to be done in order to justify NFP, but that's true in a lot of areas. It's part of being in what Daniel Lendman calls a "new patristic period"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. a period where a lot of theology is happening without a firm basis in philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, I wasn't trying to drive you away or anything. I find the arguments about NFP both interesting and relevant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7459" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I'm just doing three things at once. Haven't been driven away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just trying to avoid misunderstandings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Listen. If you get married when you're 22 as I did and many other TACers do, youve got a solid 20 plus years of fertility ahead of you. Unless you're claiming that everyone should want 10 plus kids, then mandating sorrow at the use of NFP seems a little ridiculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm in the same boat, married at 23.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Massive families (and by massive, I mean 8 plus, I guess) are a special calling. Not everybody can do them well, and I don't think those of us who don't want one should feel sorrow about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Put it another way-- most young married mothers are going to be immensely relieved if they are able to space out their children using NFP over the course of the many, many years of their fertility. To expect them to feel sorrow over it is just... i dunno... dumb</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7465" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess what I'm thinking is that even a couple with a family too big for them to handle would balk at choosing which not to have had, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I do see the prudential argument for spacing children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7467" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">People do forget that the end isn't just the generation of children but their formation as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7468" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7469" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda tough to keep balance in today's political climate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7470" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, I get it that we live in a culture that is quite the opposite. But let's hit the mean, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7471" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is still a question, though, of the best way to space births. Daniel Lendman's position seemed to be that the optimal method of birth-spacing is continence through both fertile and infertile periods.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW your mommy blog comment was totally condescending but I have no right to complain about that at this point so condescend away. ; )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">dumb = dont agree / want to understand</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7474" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NFP proposes a lesser standard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7475" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, John, when I say "dumb" what I mean is "silly" or something less kind</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7476" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel just likes to be more Catholic than the pope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7477" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if the relationship between a continent couple and a NFP-using couple is like the relationship between the celibate state of life and the married state: i.e. objectively better but not necessarily better in particular circumstances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My mommy-blog comment mainly had to do with the reflection that discussions of cloth diapers and NFP bring women out of the woodwork like discussions of sports bring men out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T16:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I still disagree with every premise of Daniel's argument that continence is better than NFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7480" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I have a habit of being accidentally condescending, I once told my now-wife that she was rather intelligent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trying to cheer her up about the prospect of doing junior math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's interesting, though, the argument for celibacy > married state, as I understand it, only holds for christians who are called to a religious vocation: according to nature, it seems to me, the married state > celibacy.<br />Perhaps something similar is true on the other side of the proportion?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(As a side note, from my mother: Please say a prayer for the healing of Fr. Bruce Noble from cancer. Bl. John Henry Newman, pray for us.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why only Christians called to a vocation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As was mentioned before Fr. Noble is a good friend of my family and a one-time password. He and his twin brother were Anglican priests from Brisbane, Australia who became priests under JPII's Pastoral Provision. His brother, David, died of cancer a while ago, now Fr. Bruce is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'll pray for Fr. Noble.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to look it up in Thomas, but the general position I've heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to look it up in Thomas, but the general position I've heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to look it up in Thomas, but the general position I've heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see how that could translate to the "state of nature".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, but wouldn't that be true even of nonreligious (I.e. not in an order ) Christians?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, celibacy isn't good in itself, only as part of a calling to a higher good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but why would that higher calling include a religious vocation of necessity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eh, I don't know, it just has to include Jesus, I would think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that the un-married non-religious state is meant to be a kind of transition period for a Christian and not an end in itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7497" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Even if, for some reason, that period lasts your whole life)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7498" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-29T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-29T17:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Life is a transition period for Christians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But even then, it seems to me that the order between the celibate and married life differs for the Christian and the non-Christian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And thus, the continent marriage (like that of St. Edward the Confessor) might be a particular calling for Christians and only objectively better in that context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You mean if God particularly called you to a celibate marriage it would be better to obey than disobey?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, that Christians in a continent marriage are in an objectively better state of life even if most married Christians shouldn't attempt to emulate them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ech. Continent marriage isn't really marriage. It's just a special sort of friendship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm suggesting this, not claiming it to be my own opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7506" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So it's weird to hold it up as an ideal of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, do you know my brother? Facebook says you are his friend</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7508" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a good point. A sign of that is that, according to canon law, marriage isn't indissoluble until consummated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know, what's his name?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew McCall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only know him because he was a senior my freshman year at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, at TAC the name seemed familiar for some reason . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, your comment about the single life being a transitional state is probably true when not applied to persons. What you probably mean is that adolescence is transitional to the state of life a person ought to live.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7515" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kinda undecided whether there is such a thing as a "single vocation" that isn't consecrated to God in some way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7516" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other side of the NFP thing, Samantha, is the people who use NFP and are unreasonably upset when they are unexpectedly pregnant: to me that indicates a moral defect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Define "unreasonably upset"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I'm thinking is this: it's ok to be worried about the financial consequences of the new child or the consequence's for the mother's health or other such things, but if you are upset with having a new child as such, there is something wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just like there would be something wrong if a mother could easily choose which child to keep and which to send off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or rather, if a couple . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7521" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T17:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, are we suppose to understand the perpetual virgins as religious? I never did, but I could be mistaken.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7522" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not really sure . . . at the very least I'd claim that that state is less perfect by nature than the married state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7523" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(with all the relevant qualifications regarding circumstances)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That certainly may be. But your claim was regarding the life of the Christian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that seems fine. I think most people who are upset are thinking about the attendant difficulties and not the baby herself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T18:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And once again, it seems like you mean adolescence or the life that imitates adolescence. Singularity would be such by nature only insofar that imitates adolescence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder where the line is, though: what counts as an "attendant difficulty"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, what I mean is that the pagan who never marries is in a less perfect state of life than his colleague who marries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you have kids?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7531" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T18:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the attendant difficulties are not manifest to you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is less perfect about it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just trying to find the limits of what being "unreasonably upset" would mean. I think what I said above is a minimal definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, for one thing, his state of life (abstracted from any other contributions he might make to the community) is less productive of the perpetuation of the community he lives in, so he fails that community in some way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7535" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I do realize that in prudential matters like that, there isn't going to be a formula that fits all cases.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps....but failure is such a strong word for a general obligation. Especially considering that it is not the city that places that obligation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the obligation derives in part from the common good of the city (state,polis) you're in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly education does....I don't know about reproduction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">2 cents: <br />1) These are difficult times to have a large families. Society is in so many ways opposed to such. And I say this watching my many long time friends and their struggles, as well as our own. This is the principle difficulty.<br />2) Nevertheless, (without judging anyone else) financial reasons are not a real consideration imo. If you were aware of our circumstances, it is patently manifest that God does provide. But I know many others as well.<br />3) Returning to the first point, that is the real problem. I can hardly begin to show the ways in which this is true, and it is a struggle such that I am at a loss what to do presently (though I used to pride myself on my resourcefulness) which leads again to number 2.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7540" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that, ultimately the justification for NFP comes from realizing that marriage is not merely for the generation of children but for their formation as well.<br />If for some reason a couple really don't think they can educate the another child appropriately, then NFP could licitly be employed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7541" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T18:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Providence does kick in. We have moved continually, but some how all works out well, though certainly never to plan at all. I had it all figured out ten years ago. We are on plan double zed now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I'm a teacher by trade. So at least that part of it is very important to me. [Of course, now I would never send my kids to public school ...... on the other hand, one HAD to go for a semester last year. So hey. It was good for a while]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7543" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right now it is definitely not what I had hoped for </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, care should be taken when making statements about deficiencies in anyone's state of life. Statements of this nature tend to reinforce this observation. The creation of prototypes, while helpful speculatively, may be extremely harmful practically. http://shweta-narayan.livejournal.com/204154.html<br />Let's talk about category structure and oppression!<br />This has been a v long-brewing post; I've been meaning...<br />SHWETA-NARAYAN.LIVEJOURNAL.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7545" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T18:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I consider myself deficient and take no offense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T18:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND I think being unprejudiced is very overrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7547" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T18:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sex, sex, sexy sex</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7548" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A lot of that Aaron, is not a matter of something inherent in categorizing, but is a misunderstanding of how theoretical categorizations relate to practice.<br />That is, even though being a priest is a better state of life than being in husband there are almost certainly people who would have been damned if they took orders rather than marry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7549" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T18:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gimme an N, gimme an F, gimme a P</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But hasty categorization is a problem: I have tried to only speak with the force my certainty in these matters allows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7551" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T18:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know you well enough to know that to be true. But you seem to deny a stable single life as a state while there are plenty of examples in history and in the saints to say otherwise. Categorizing single life as simply transitional is what I find problematic. That is why I wondered if you meant adolescent life or life in imitation of adolescence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7552" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T18:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Single people are single because they are being punished by God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lulz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-08-29T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-08-29T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not the prosperity gospel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So still talking about NFP huh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">after a brief interlude</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's because God knows their worth, and it is not great. They would be bad for other people so He keeps them single and alone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7558" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I'm not as good at this as Pope Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just say "no" to NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7560" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's all be dominionists and out-breed the world!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7561" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. Who's going to volunteer to take Peregrine's place. I'm already mostly trogledite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"You only have 13 children? You really should consider stepping up your duty to the Lord."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who has 13?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OCto-mom X 8!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I jest, I jest)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7567" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bethea is the only one, at the last reckoning, to outdo pb in verbosity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7568" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and in wisdom!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7569" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine has 13 children. They run his social media accounts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7570" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BABIES EVERYWHERE! http://youtu.be/Y6rE0EakhG8?t=20s<br />Nutrigrain Ad<br />Nutrigrain bars: Feel Great. :)<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7571" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">perhaps we'll split duties: I'll misspell names, Bethea will troll the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(those aren't children, they're clones)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7573" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you're catching me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edword</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7575" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you are under 25 and not married, you are a menace to society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any word on what happened to Scott Weinerface?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7577" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">got his ass kicked in a bar by a lady</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7578" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you are over 25 and not married, you're an even bigger menace to society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant over. OOPS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7580" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/PDAYBm9MyZQ<br />Mormon Marriage Madness<br />http://www.everythingisterrible.com<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7581" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will spam this thread with funny videos until Ed gets the various jobs straightened out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, the delegation of duties. Wonderful!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7583" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">division of labor is just a capitalist plot to oppress the poor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7584" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fiction is from THE DEVIL. ESPECIALLY Harry Potter. http://youtu.be/OO-nN8Icqsw<br />Harry Potter Is The Antichrist<br />For more videos, DVDs, and found footage insanity: www.everythingisterrible.com<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7585" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fiction is made up. Made up things are lies. Satan is the Father of Lies. Therefore fiction is Satan's child. Therefore fiction is from the devil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The guy in the video obviously read Harry Potter more closely that I did. I had no clue there was incest and pedophilia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">dude, the mormon video was a riot. I grew up in mo-mo country</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7588" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sound argument. Time to purge seminar of all that "literature." Surprised PB didn't get upset about the smoke of satan in seminar class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7589" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My question is that if equal dollar values indicate some vague sort of equivalence, in what world is two gallons of gas equivalent to a gallon of milk?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7590" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Freshman Seminar guide: http://youtu.be/dMD18ZF0MLo<br />Oedipus The King - Thug Notes Summary and Analysis<br />Don't run from destiny, just hit that SUBSCRIBE button...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7591" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was wondering when Thug notes would make an appearance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7592" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - there's also abortion in HP. Remember the mandrakes? Don't answer that - reading those books will send you right to hell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Hey dude, I took a gallon of milk from your refrigerator but it's ok, I replaced it with two gallons of gas!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Just have a couple glasses of cold gasoline with them cookies!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I can't drink cold gas!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">isn't that "opportunity cost" in economics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't worry, John, it's equivalent!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 27%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I might be a woman trapped inside a man's body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k2FkUF41AA<br />menstrual cramps<br />menstrual cramps victim vents<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7599" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cars are abominable inventions and gas was put on earth by the devil to get us addicted to our fast shiny machines. WAKE UP SHEEPLE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Isak, do you really think HP is good literature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think anyone made THAT claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7602" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - in all seriousness, no, I don't think HP is very good literature. I think it's the reading equivalent of candy. I don't agree with the more extreme theories I've heard regarding its so-called dangers, but I do criticize it on the charge that it's poor literature.<br />I know it's the most popular series ever or whatever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7603" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://xkcd.com/1013/<br />xkcd: Wake Up Sheeple<br />Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor...<br />XKCD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look Lewis was heavily involved in the occult before he became protestant and in shows, esp. in his trilogy (he never got it out of his system -- very difficult to do). Charles Williams was member of Ordo Templis Orientalis (and it shows). Barfield was on his screwy evolution of consciousness (he was a student of the freakshow anthroposophist Rudolph Steiner -- yeah read some of his wacky stuff)........</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CS Lewis sucked. There. I said it too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">......I am getting at the inklings were heavily involved in the occult and their are points in this article worth considering on the negative side of what he did, I think and I was a big fan but see some problems worth thinking about. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.ca/.../the-fantasy-writing...<br />RORATE CÆLI: The fantasy writing of Tolkien was Catholic!Well, not so fast ...<br />RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's somewhere between the Hunger Games and Eragon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey hang on what's wrong with the occult?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eragon was truly atrocious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've only read Hunger games, so I'm out of my element here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael I can't see that cartoon. Looks like my school bans XKCD from access! I am saddened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7612" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a silly article 'bout Tolkien, if it's the one I'm thinking of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Harry Potter is not just candy. It's complete crap ..... of course long ago when it first came out I was ambivalent (just thinking it was bad literature -- terrible really, never liked the first chapter and the hack job done on the family. But chapter one is terrible. I have since reread it two times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'm winning this one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7615" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Isak's benefit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the gnosis criticism, the magic use, and the confusion of supernatural and natural are problematic and worth considering. (that is Tolkien). .....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks Edweird</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7618" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, wonderful - we're on the Harry Potter is Satanic trash kick!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, if you want to throw out Beowulf, the Norse Sagas, Homer and King Arthur</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah that article on Tolkien is laughable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is trash in every way....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(50, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Or at least on the it's Very Very Bad kick)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7624" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's Pergrine when you need himl.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is laughable. be specific.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7626" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I really don't think it's trash. I just don't think it's worth defending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7627" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It basically criticises Tolkien by rubrics applicable to a different kind of writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AMAZING. How the mind absolutely shuts down if you utter a word of disparagement about Potter or Tolkien.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7629" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">That part where the blog author talks about admiring the beautifully carved altar only to discover it's Rosicrucian made or whatever comes to mind. Beauty is to be found everywhere and always belongs to God, even if it has come about by means outside the one True Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7630" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T19:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">check out how quickly we liked that comment guys</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7631" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Myths, fairytales, fables, magic - all exquisite and necessary for the proper formation of an imagination in my opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The main objection is that, as Aristotle says, a work of art is to be judged in itself and not according to the knowledge or character of the artist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^now you sound like Perebonbon Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7634" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - my mind's not shutting down. I'm totally willing to listen. I just feel like it's fair you know from the outset what my current opinion is. It could change! I would be made better if I do not have the right opinion now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7635" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">do we need holistic theosophanic tantric magisterial dogmathons?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just like a good story, man. That's where I'm coming from. Hey pass that over here will you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also John - the author of that blog is not treating Joseph Campbell fairly. I am readily able to criticize him, but he is practically without peer when it comes to comparative mythology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7638" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The charges of gnosticism would be more appropriate if he was trying to do philosophy or theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T19:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like John is preparing this really epic response right now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or go to TAC<br />#gnosisrocks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7641" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T19:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or he's gone to eat dinner</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/lL0WayC7jW0<br />norm saves the interview<br />This is an interview with a girl from MELROSE PLACE... Thank GOD, Norm Macdonald cannot resist giving her...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7643" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dinner sounds good. It's Friday afternoon in a teacher's life. That means beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7644" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just wanted some space from that NFP this, NFP that retro Albigensian, manichean blabber ..... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7645" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">THANK YOU John!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">off to the store. kids ate all the food again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7647" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T19:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't pass perfection without me (8128</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well guys looks like we have a goal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7649" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Consider yet another point, namely that in the Middle Earth of Tolkien, death for man is a gift: “the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar (Tolkien’s one god), which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."<br />Augustine has a section hidden somewhere in the City of God or elsewhere where he talks about how it was good that the Crucufixion didn't remove death. As far as I can tell, in Tolkien men don't come around until after what stands as the fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's fight about Harry Potter! My position is neither that it is heretical, dangerous trash, nor that it is great or even good literature. I find it highly imaginative but abysmally storied. Bottom line - entertaining escapism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, Aristotle, Plato et al. had problems with the myths of Homer: esp. how they treated of the gods. Works such as Tolkien form the young minds (even Grimms tales I believe discussed earlier here or maybe not). I've been reconsidering GKC's take on fairy tales.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was Plato right to have problems with those myths?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harry Potter is the gateway to the occult. JKRowling is thoroughly steeped in it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Indeed I believe he thought the stories of the gods (esp. Odysseus' tale) should be not read to the youth.......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.......but later when it could be rightly understood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The stories of the gods lead to corruption of the youth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think he was right to have problems with them. He wanted to kick out the poets, but did say that if anyone could adequately defend them he would let them back in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7659" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without approaching the question of Plato (who thought the poets divinely inspired as well, see Ion), I think Aristotle is mostly concerned with the philosophical appropriations of Homer.<br />In the Poetics, he seems perfectly fine with all the various Greek poetic uses of myth (not only Homer, but also Euripides, etc.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I maintain that Homer thought they were bad (with perhaps the exception of Poseidon). HE SHOWS that dramatically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the Republic should be relied upon as presenting Plato's view of a well ordered political society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IN the Poetics, he also says the poets lie. That is a GREAT work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7663" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I read the stories of the Iliad and the Odyssey at a very early age, but they were children's versions. I graduated slowly to more and more mature versions as my mind's ability to handle such also grew mature. What's wrong with doing it that way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^_ please explicate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant Ed's comment about Plato</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, the poets lie. Fiction is a lie. And it's a good lie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and the best critique of poetry esp. in the sense of helping to understand poetry and how to read it (drama and stories in particular)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HOMER does not have the immoral effect today as in the ancient days because we don't believe in the gods ISAK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the Republic? he tells us at the very beginning that the city being built is to be a model of the soul. The most common critique of his account is that he confuses a unity of order with the unity of an individual: coincidence? I think not!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7670" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Strauss says...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7671" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">if fiction is about universals is it strictly speaking a lie? EDIT: about universals like Aristotle says in the poetics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7672" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church has rightly always had a strange relationship with, say, theater for example. On the one hand she recognizes the danger of pretending to be something other than what you are and participating in made up stories. On the other hand she knows very well that telling stories is the most powerful, most effective way to tell the truth. Medieval plays took place on the steps of the cathedrals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward ^^^^^^^^^^^^ you may be right about Aristotle way up there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't believe in the gods, John? Why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have to remember, as Dr. Noone says, Roman theater was basically pornography.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes ISAK about the Church and theatre and it's well worth considering why. (And what sort of theatre she was concerned about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just out of curiosity, why are you capitalizing my name? haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7678" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, if I'm not responding. Too many posts. And I'm getting adjusted to becoming the new troll here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does that mean Augustine wouldn't like Game of Thrones or Game of Thrones doesn't hold a candle to Roman Theater</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7681" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to make sure you see, isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Figured it'd be both.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7683" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't need Augustine to tell me that Game of Thrones is a stinking corpse of a story...and not because of all the boobage, either...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bad pacing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Atrocious writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Augustine says it so vehemently</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7687" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked the prose in the first book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't read any of the others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always like reading the Fathers because they don't hesistate to refer to the "hated-of-God Nestorius"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe he got lucky in the first one. I got 3/4 through and never finished. Saw the first season of the show and never bothered again. Better things to do - like comment for eternity on The Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7691" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should make a practice of that in my papers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, should fiction reveal a deeper truth, which Plato would seem to appreciate because of the whole Noble lie....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7693" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I want you to do that at conferences. A LOT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, fiction primarily should be for the sake of diverting a virtuous man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(206, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Chrysostum EXCOMMUNICATED folks for going to the circus. But does anyone care to know the reasons why. BTW Alban Butler is IMO wrote one of the best works all time in the English language. Very good resource. He was a polymath and read everything. His Lives (the original) are great (4 vol. or 12.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great question John. I think yes, very much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As that pompous buffoon Maritain says in the execrable Degrees of Knowledge . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward was that a serious response? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7699" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a good way to start a physical brawl during q&a</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">About the purpose of ficiton? yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay. Diverting a virtuous man towards what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7702" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to do it in the presence of Finnis or Grisez </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It should be relaxation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">unto what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As in amusing him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what sorts of things would the virtuous man find relaxing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really? You read The Brothers Karamazov for amusement?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So no need for deeper truth or revealing human nature in ways that stimulate the mind to comtemplation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depictions of virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read Aristotle for amusement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's not amusement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Chaucer. and Dante.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brothers K is not exactly the book I would pick for depictions of virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure those things can happen, but they should be a consequence of the way the primary end is achieved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">esp. Chaucer for amusement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7719" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't fiction tell a truth by holding the mirror up to nature, as it were?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7720" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that Edward reads the Fathers primarily for the sick burns</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7721" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T19:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7722" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:56:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read TNET because it's a thousand times better than my feed used to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7723" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:56:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I can't stop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^THIS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7725" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would love for someone to write "The People's History of The Never-Ending Thread." You know, a concise chronicle of its ages and its aeons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7726" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds like a cultural marxist version, Mr. Zinn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T19:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like a little cultural marxism mixed in with my myth-obessions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Approaching 8000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7729" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T19:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">what sorts of things would the virtuous man find relaxing?<br />depictions of action in its proper context which make clear the motives of the agents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">since pleasure is found in the best operations of well-disposed faculties</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matter of fact I feel like at some point this is going to end in a surreal fashion - TNET will awaken and force us all to drop acid, at which point we will have visions of recurring eternity for the rest of our lives. Potato.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, to say it another way "qualis unumquodque est talis finis videtur ei"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7733" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T20:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Virtuous men only read about the virtuous? That rules out a large number of stories.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not what I said </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go oooooooon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, Boyer, that is born out by the lives of many saints.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yes it does rule out much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward - to say that a man would find depictions of Achilles slaughtering Trojans relaxing is to use the word in a manner quite new to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depictions of vice and its folly would count as well, according to this criteria too I guess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For continent men, I suppose satire is very useful and amusing too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But to the truly virtuous. .... perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7742" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T20:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Satire is also a means of instruction for the incontinent and vicious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7744" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, dinner time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7745" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T20:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay - I would love to know what you guys think makes a good STORY. I don't think we're on the same page about this. I have to go at the moment but I look forward to returning to my vomit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">vale.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7747" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">eat well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7748" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">1. a bad or mediocre character becoming a good or ok person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, that's my favorite kind of story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">2. noble people undergoing trials, tribulations and temptations and becoming even nobler through them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">second favorite kind of story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7752" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T20:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you folks really going to leave the discussion of Homer behind that quickly? Doesn't he deserve better than a passing glance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7753" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think everyone's gone to dinner...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7754" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T20:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Their bellies are their gods . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">on road</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I tuned in to this thread, I was intrigued by something you said about Poseidon, John, but I can't find it now--too many crazy comments to search through them all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I maintain that Homer thought they were bad (with perhaps the exception of Poseidon). HE SHOWS that dramatically."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^John's post</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-29T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-29T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">about poseidon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that poseidon may be the only good god in homer. The rest . . . bad</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7761" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T20:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, Nina. What an interesting thing to say, John. I have always viewed Poseidon as playing the satanic role in the Odyssey, so I am intrigued by your claim. What do you find good about Poseidon in the Odyssey?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T20:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thats interesting.. .. In car</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7763" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T20:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">whew back before perfection...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7764" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T20:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">While I wait for you to park the car and explain your interpretation, I will offer some thoughts about the two brothers, Zeus and Poseidon, the latter being evil, the former being good. Here it is helpful to think about four similar sets of brothers--one good, the other evil--from Shakespeare: King Hamlet and Claudius in Hamlet; Duke Senior and Duke Fredrick in As You Like It; Don Pedro and Don John in Much Ado About Nothing; and Prospero and Antonio in The Tempest. In all four plays the benevolent authority is temporarily usurped or thwarted by the unlawful and false authority of the evil yet fraternal power. This aspect of fraternity, combined with the eventual dramatic reversal of the evil power or its subjection to the good, suggests that Shakespeare’s cosmology is not dualistic or gnostic, but Christian. In other words, the existence of evil is paradoxically linked to the good, and plays a role within the pale of a single divine purpose: the freedom and sanctification of man. I see the same principle operating in Homer. Zeus is the Heavenly Father; Poseidon is the satanic force who unwittingly serves the divine plan to bring Odysseus home after much suffering and subsequent insight into himself and the divine order of things. The comparison to Job's trial is striking: just as Satan is permitted by God the Father to inflict pain on the blameless and upright Job, so Zeus allows Poseidon to punish Odysseus (who is not blameless and upright) in order to bring Odysseus to a state of moral perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T20:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and kill all the suitors....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Absolutely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-29T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-29T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember so little of Homer. It was so long ago. Even though I read a book of Odyssey and a book of Iliad in Greek about five years ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T21:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thankfully Homer never grows old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7769" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T21:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, you forgot to mention the execution of the women servants who had been sleeping with the suitors!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7770" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T21:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whenever I think of Homer, I think of "rosy-fingered dawn" - that particular phrasing has always stayed fresh in my memory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7771" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T21:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and the wine-dark sea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes...in any other piece of literature, those descriptions probably would have been forgettable. Not with Homer, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7773" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T21:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of unforgettable, how about the description of Odysseus' faithful dog Argos?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7774" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T21:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_7775" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T21:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_7776" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ladies and gentlemen, The Thread is closer than ever to achieving self-consciousness - for Jeffrey Bond has entered the conversation. We are almost out of the cave!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7777" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to remind you all of the positions available here at World Spirit Networking. Act now for the highest-yielding dividends the negation of the negation can offer!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn, I missed another meeting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7779" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that's interesting and I could well have everything all upside down.<br />But with respect to Zeus and Poseidon, I see the former as the usurper. Poseidon is the elder of the two. And though Zeus brags that he could defeat all the gods easily, there are indications that the whole world would split if Poseidon were to fight him. <br />How did Poseidon hinder Odysseus' return? At what point? It is not until he is all alone on the raft at sea that Poseidon "hinders" him when he is only but a few weeks from his return. And what does it accomplish, but to bring him to the Phaiakians, by whom he is furnished with more wealth than had he come back with all of his booty from the Iliad? And who were the peaceful Phaiakians but those most dear to him? And as I see it they were "punished" for returning Odysseus lest lest they become known to the marauding Greeks and they were hidden from the likes of Odysseus himself. And again, it is Poseidon who urges Ajax (if memory serves) to save the ships at the burning.<br />It is Zeus and Athena, who are the principles of disorder. Why did Odysseus hide (kalypso) on the island for seven years, except for the same reason that (urged by Athena, sent by Zeus) he kept the Greeks from fleeing home (after Agammenon's 'brilliant' idea -- I can't help laughing out loud -- of 'testing' the Greeks). Now when Zeus sent Athena, he told her to go to the Greek leaders each one and stop them. However, she went only to Odysseus and what did she say? She reminded him of the shame there would be if after ten years they come home empty handed. Thereat Odysseus grabbed Agammemnon's sceptre (which the 'king of kings' "leaned" on) and wielded it: using arguments to urge on the leaders but smashing the lesser men on the head, just as he would do to Thersites in assembly, Thersites who voiced the very opinion of Homer (narrating -- or it seems to me) that many men should die and few return. So too Odysseus the many-wiled interpret the omen opposite its true meaning; and so a great though proud city fell and almost not one Greek returned home.<br />But Odysseus it seems for the same reason would not return home, namely the shame of having lost every man and the shame of no treasure (how would he be greeted by his citizens when he came home). I see Poseidon only giving benefits and keeping safe his own people. <br />But again what happens upon the return, but that Odysseus having lost (or destroyed) all 600 men, now finishes off the rest of the flower of the youth of Ithica, who became corrupt in the long absence of a good lord, and except for the intervention (and how long does that last?) of Athena, Odysseus would be avenged upon himself. Not only does he bring home the ravages of war into his own home and the clanging of the armor of those falling dead, but he corrupts the swineherd Eumaeus, best of all, prince at birth, and father of his son, who in the end cuts off the arms and legs and gonads of the goat-herder. But the main question is, does he also corrupt Telemachus, who with his own hands hangs the wicked women of his house. ...... but what was Ithika in ancient days? Was it not but a name of legend, a desolate island? and like of Beowulf and the Geats, could we not say of the Ithikans, they were no more? <br />Under Zeus, does justice prevail? Or rather is it hidden among the Phaiakians dear to Poseidon? (And Virgil seems to pick up on this, when Neptune appears like a statesman to calm the waves. And likewise at the end of that book after Aeneas' last -- as well as almost only -- words to his son, "Watch and I will show you what it is to be a man" (from memory) and proceeds to do what?????) <br />Under the sun, I say, "not one does right". But perhaps I am all wrong. In Virgil's case it's more obvious, for Aeneas brings endless war to Italy, that under Latinus had known only Saturnial peace for time immemorial: "bella, horrida, bella" cried the Sybil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7780" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">οἶνοψ πόντος</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond ^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tl;dr</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7783" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You didn't get the memo? World Spirit Networking may be forced to consider you a slave from here on out, Sam.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T21:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always been a slave, and it doesn't bother me too much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7785" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:39:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Peregrine has vanished, and now it's all about Zeus and Poseidon. I have to go back to work, but it makes me happy just seeing this interesting convo.<br />I feel like this epoch of the Thread is warm and glowing, shining like the light on glorious Mediterranean heroes of old.<br />But corruption and death could be just around the corner...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7786" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">with slavery, at least you're guaranteed square meals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7787" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm out at 8128 - having achieved enlightenment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(36, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and you're probably sick of the notifications...... Matthew Peterson)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7789" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:40:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Thread serves a practical need - an ongoing conversation one could drop in and out of like a pub.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7790" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish a took a screenshot of the notification for Peregrine commenting on a link I shared..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why's that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for the memories?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did he disappear or was he discovered to never exist to begin with? I never figured that one out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7794" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">he huffed off by deleting his fb account. he did the same thing roughly a year ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam, he has been a figment of the collective unconscious all along. Get with the program, son!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7796" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">absorbed into the thread of the matrix</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Bwhahaha. For the memories. I saw that image a lot while running around and settling in for teaching this semester. And given that he still comes up but his page is blocked...but no. These are happy centuries. Let us discuss Zeus and Poiseden, before the dark times come again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm so slow. Should have gone to TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you think he's coming back?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes I think Dr. Bond's comment needs a response.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7801" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T21:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7802" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">8000 is Jesus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(231, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How very fitting!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7804" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:44:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">He will come back the way he left.<br />I'm no prophet, but I bet he's fighting Zuckerberg right now, and trying to come back through Hades to haunt us all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7805" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But in all seriousness, we should find a way to make money off this before Zuckerberg's all seeing eye notices that people want this kind of thing. I love having this rolling thread to return to that people come in and out of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7806" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">man, someone reported him? there goes my fun for 36 hours</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7807" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh John did offer a response to Dr. Bond's comment! My screen is not keeping up with the abundance of wisdom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7808" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-29T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-29T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just like Gandolph.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7809" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what of Poseidon as demonic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7810" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-29T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-29T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[How can we compete with Zuck - let's just take what he gives us]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What of Zeus as a usurper?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7812" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know how to read that in light of the "chain of Zeus"....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"and she shed a light tear" (of Helen remembering her husband Menelaus just before she tries to seduce Hector). so so so many great one liners.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7815" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did Michael Beitia just reference my characterization of The Never-Ending Thread as the golden chain of Zeus, the axis mundi shot through all that exists and about which all things turn - from thousands of comments ago? I am truly impressed. The self-referential nature of The Thread is becoming only more and more evident.<br />I also just realized something else. Has anyone succumbed to Godwin's Law yet in over 8000 comments?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7816" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T21:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I have this vision of Peregrine trying to cross the river Styx trying to escape the FB equivalent of the Underworld.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one better volunteer to be his Charon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7818" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan Baird you just cracked me up, out loud and everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7819" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In response to John's interesting interpretation, I cannot agree (but cannot address all at once the many points he makes). Let's think about Zeus. He is the Father of Gods and Men. Zeus' golden chain, which all the gods and men on the other end could not drag down from the heights of Olympus in a divine game of tug-a-war, has rightly--and traditionally--been taken as the first literary reference to the great chain of Being. Everything "hangs" on that. Boethius in the Consolation of Philosophy uses this Homeric imagery to talk about the chain of love that binds the cosmos into a One. It is also Zeus, in an astonishing anticipation of God the Father's sacrifice of His beloved Son, who cries tears of blood when he must sacrifice his son Sarpedon so that Troy will be rightly punished for its defense of adultery. As for Poseidon, note that he ultimately must defer to the will of Zeus, so Poseidon is clearly not the superior god despite being the elder brother. (As in Scripture, so in Homer, the elder is never the divine favorite, that being a merely human convention that God always thwarts.) Poseidon inflicts pain on Odysseus because Odysseus blinded his son, Polyphemus the cyclops. Poseidon, the lord of the formless ocean, punishes Odysseus through his many faces on the endless sea: Circe, Calypso, Skylla, Charybdis, etc. Ultimately, however, it is Zeus who is behind the punishment since it is his divine plan to bring Odysseus home once he is ready. As for Odysseus' men, Homer tells us from the beginning that they do not make it home due to their own wild recklessness. Odysseus is not responsible for the fact that they lose their homecoming. They eat the cattle of the sun--think here of the Garden of Eden--and are destroyed by Zeus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would volunteer. I crave amusement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia: I think you'd make an admirable Charon. Make The Peregrine a bit sea-sick crossing the Styx, will you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no I'd bring him over safe and sound. I love contention. It's a defect in me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7823" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, I like the interpretation, except for the Boethius/God anticipation reference. It always makes me go a big Nietzschean flutter when every stick is a cross in literature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, safe and sound is fine. Just give him a little discomfort.... smooth voyages do not make for strong sailors. A little pain is good for people. <br />(Ok, I realize that made me sound a little bit evil.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7825" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love the ocean, but there is a mystery, a power a chaos that it moves and moves it. the ocean is constantly moving. That's what I think of when I think of sea deities (Aegir)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there's something primally frightening about the οἶνοψ πόντος, wine-drunkenness, abandonment..... why wouldn't the sea punish Odysseus? that's what it does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7827" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, speaking of the cross (since you brought it up, Michael), St. Augustine rightly said that the cross is not significant because Christ died on it, but Christ died on it because it was significant. The cross is everywhere in Homer, especially in the weaving of Penelope where every vertical and horizontal thread meet. The vertical and horizontal imagery in the Odyssey is almost limitless. The early Christians were especially found of the image of Odysseus tied to the mast (always depicted in Greek art with a horizontal crossbeam) as a presentiment of the crucifixion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Funny you should mention the ocean, Michael - and the cross. For as the golden chain of Zeus hangs vertically, eternally binding the cosmos into one, the ocean exists horizontally, in a perpetual state of motion. It stands as the world of things that come to be and pass away, as the world of contingency, to the divine and eternal world represented by the golden chain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well that was uncanny. Looks like we've achieved a true unity of consciousness. The Thread-Merge is at hand!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You be the vertical thread, and I'll be the horizontal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey I wanted to be the horizontal!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7832" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The ocean's rather like this thread - ever moving, ever constant - drawing people in with an inexpressible power. The more one resists, the more one is drawn to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7833" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It may be more like Charybdis: always sucking down and then spewing forth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And we, Odysseus-like, must reach up to the great tree that hangs over the whirlpool lest we be lost forever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7835" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, that comment had me laughing so hard I choked on my wine.<br />That poor wine. It'll never be the same. Neither will be my vocal chords.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7836" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear, I brought up the chain as an objection to John's interpretation. I clearly see that God's providence acts in this world. But as lyric and beautiful as Odysseus tied to a mast may be, the horrors of the Romans crucifying all the gladiators in the Spartacus revolt is a little less poetic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have short arms - I won't be able to reach the tree. So I'm pretty prepared to be sucked under.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, then cling to the mast and keel (that Odysseus lashed together like a good wanna be Christian), and then paddle like mad when the mast/keel are spewed forth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is one of the reasons I detest discussing literature. We all bring something to the interpretation.... like take out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7840" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is more like playing with literature as opposed to really discussing it. In any event, why would you detest take out?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">More like a potluck, Michael...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I'm paying for food, I want someone else to clean it up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7843" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">fine Isak, my metaphorical syllogisms suck</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">World Spirit Networking also offers a maid service.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And we might be able to help you out with your meta-syllo-phor-gisms as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">plus there's so many food allergies in this house, take out is almost impossible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Syllometagismphorically speaking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no really speaking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The roasted meats in the Odyssey always make my mouth water.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah yes, metagismsyllophorically speaking, of course</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my oldest can't eat dairy, nuts, peanuts or eggs: I can't hack ham-fisted Christian references in pre-Christian texts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO ONE defended Harry Potter? Really you guys?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7853" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harry Potter sucks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7854" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Homer was just a little bit more interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the time I was ready to defend Harry Potter, the thread had leaped to another topic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I got whiplash so that put a damper on typing out replies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't let that stop you, Megan</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7858" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't worry Megan. It will return.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">everything returns</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7860" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there were no Christian references in pre-Christian texts, we would have to doubt that nature awaits grace or that reason is perfected by faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7861" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">not really. What we bring with us, we can find easily. Is it there before we bring it? less clear</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T22:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harry Potter is absolutely candy and candy is delicious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7863" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This bears quoting again, I think: "The Heaviest Burden. What if a demon crept after you into your loneliest loneliness some day or night, and said to you: "The Neverending Thread, as you experience it at present, and have experienced it, you must experience it once more, and also innumerable times; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and every sigh, and all the unspeakably small and great in The Thread must come to you again, and all in the same series and sequence - and similarly this spider and this moonlight among the trees, and similarly this moment, and I myself. The eternal sand-glass of The Thread will ever be turned once more, and you with it, you speck of dust!" - Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth, and curse the demon that so spoke? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment in which you would answer him: "You are a God, and never did I hear anything so divine!" If that thought acquired power over you as you are, it would transform you, and perhaps crush you; the question with regard to all and everything: "Do you want this Thread once more, and also for innumerable times?" would lie as the heaviest burden upon your activity! Or, how would you have to become favourably inclined to yourself and to The Thread, so as to long for nothing more ardently than for this last eternal sanctioning and sealing?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7864" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">IDK I haven't read it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-29T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-29T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm thinking of really tasty candy like chocolate with sea salt and almonds or something</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7866" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, it's all fun and games until your teeth fall out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7867" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with St. Paul. The Greeks had no excuse since God revealed Himself first in the book of nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the book of nature is not the book of Homer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Homer is the poet of nature. In fact, the Greek word physis first appears in Homer in his description of the moly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(203, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Candy is delicious and suitable in its own place. I enjoy candy. But I also enjoy steak and potatoes and shepherds pie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh if only Peregrine could see what just happened. Jeffrey Bond, the vast majority of this eternal conversation was spent dancing around the issue of whether a man could come to know God through reason alone, based on God's presence in nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once read a existentialist reduction of the short story "A Descent into the Maelstrom" by Poe, relating it to business. After that, I've got nothing left for you guys</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7873" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I'm sorry, but what does "Homer is the poet of nature" mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7874" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It means that Homer, without the benefit of revelation, saw into the nature of things and first showed her to us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, Jeffrey. The Odyssey is the strangest poem. So many questions. One i would wish i could take up in a reading group.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7876" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We must all meet some place and have that discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7877" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmm . . . I'll have to think about that. I've always subscribed to the "all literature is a footnote of Homer" school of thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7878" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has to be near Chicago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7879" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread has inspired me to reread Homer again so I can really have a fruitful discussion on it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would place myself in that school for sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7881" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chicago would be wonderful. Where shall we meet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer the Iliad, to be frank. The Odyssey always confused me a bit<br />Medici's on 57th</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice to know it is still there. When shall we meet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I tend to prefer whichever of the two I'm reading at the moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7885" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">beats me. Mass gets out around 11:30 on Sunday.... noonish?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Iliad is much tougher, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7887" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I miss Chicago. I have family near there ~ and my parents took us to St. John Cantius quite a few times. #nostalgia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7888" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I probably cannot get there until next summer. I hope that works for the rest of you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund should really get back into this conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll probably be here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But i would far p refer the Odyssey. I am ever wandering and have little strength to topple a city that size: more begger than warrior I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7892" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mass at the Institute of Christ the King, then lunch at Medici's under the shadow of the University of Chicago. A Sunday in July perhaps?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it is legal to toppke a city . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">even in this permissive age.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7895" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have two takers for a Sunday in July in Hyde Park. Any others?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's my parish Jeffrey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm in</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I'm not tied to either pick one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7899" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I can make it, I'd definitely be interested. When I was younger, one of the parishes I attended was an Institute of Christ the King parish. Fantastic order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7900" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I remember from another thread that you were a parishioner there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7901" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey - there is no "other thread." The Threadness is all, and all is The Threadness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7902" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So it is John, Michael, Isak, Megan and I. Is there a way to have FB send us a reminder in May so that we can make plans for July?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T22:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I may interest another but that is tentative. You don't know Darrell Dobbs, Jeffrey?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but of course he would be welcome if he is a lover of Homer!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7905" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://media2.giphy.com/media/nzts9M7pHXXj2/giphy.gif<br />MEDIA2.GIPHY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could always create an event for July 2015....that sends out periodic notifications.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he is. But more of Plato.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7908" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then he is even more welcome!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7909" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T22:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, one can never have too much Plato!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea how to create an event. Being new to FB, I can barely write comments. Can you do it, Megan?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll do it, I'm local</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/events/1671935386365439/...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T22:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Excellent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll make you the admin, Michael Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">whatever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7916" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T22:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(as in, that's cool)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T23:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, we even have a date--July 5th. I'll put it on my calendar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7918" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-29T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-29T23:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one banned PB, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7919" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-29T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-29T23:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's one of the efficient causes of this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm afraid someone may have</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7921" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T23:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think FB yanked his profile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or he deleted it himself in shame. This troll hide is so cozy...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone invite John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-29T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-29T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm looking forward to breaking bread with you folks at the Medici's on 57th. Gotta go for now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-29T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-29T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am very grateful to PB for his efficient causality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7926" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Donovan" data-date="2014-08-29T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Donovan at 2014-08-29T23:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger I know Dr. Dobbs, I'm sure he'd find this intended Homer conversation interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7927" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Marie Donovan" data-date="2014-08-29T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Donovan at 2014-08-29T23:05:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">also this thread is certifiably insane.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7929" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">perfect <br />#gnosisachieved</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7930" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-29T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-29T23:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Welcome, dear Marie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7931" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great. Look forward to it. Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7932" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T23:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A little late and a dollar short, but Matthew J. Peterson mentioned a dislike for how graduates refer to the common good. Two things<br />1. Even if, which seems fair, their notion of the common good is rather imperfect, is it not good that they are introduced to even using the term in a way that isn't associated with mocking leftists? Look at (increasingly trollish) bloggers like Fr. Z...social justice, common good, etc these concepts are only ever mentioned in bashing leftists, as their terminology. To have a "conservative" institution that uses the term in a serious way, even if only defectively, I think helps start breaking a barrier American conservatives have about such talk.<br />2. Would it be better if we studied On the Primacy of the Common Good, maybe in seminar? Or considering the progenitor status of De Koninck, would that be intellectual masturbation at TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Darrell is a very dear friend and similar in temper to Jeffrey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7934" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're worried about the common good when my gnosis was just achieved? I should zap you with an outpouring of the world spirit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7935" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-29T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-29T23:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So this thread has over 8000 comments WITHOUT Bonaventure's?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7936" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I have sole possession of 8128!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7937" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T23:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, I am always worried about the common good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7938" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am too. and I'm afraid that #1 you wrote above is spot on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Catherine, I think Facebook's comment total includes comments you can't see. But, that's only 600+ comments anyways</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7940" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T23:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I think when FB bans someone, it just sorta hides them, doesn't expunge their data</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7941" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's like the e-timeout</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7942" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T23:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW not only Peregrine, but Scott Weinberg's accounts are gone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-29T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-29T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I checked that too. We'll see if he comes back in a couple of days</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7944" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the thread isnt diversion enough i recommend rereading it with pb invisible </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7945" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-29T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-29T23:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then we could get the feel for how John Ruplinger read it originally (with no PB)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I got Jeffrey Bond snagged in the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7947" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is frightening. It's out of control.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7948" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-29T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-29T23:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds slightly unpleasant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe Joshua Kenz promised some LIGUORI. Very interested really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-29T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-29T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Buy I thought tnet is pb's porism? How can it be and not be?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7951" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-29T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-29T23:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A much simpler question about the Odyssey, (which I agree is a conundrum of a text... and 'poet of nature'... really??) is the question really about Zeus v Poseidon, or is about how enemy and ally work towards the moral rectification of Odysseus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have a theory about trolls. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7953" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-29T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-29T23:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes I did. But before that, some context...from the Holy Office!<br />[Condemned in a decree of the Holy Office, March 4, 1679]<br />1158 8. Eating and drinking even to satiety for pleasure only, are not sinful, provided this does not stand in the way of health, since any natural appetite can licitly enjoy its own actions.<br />1159 9. The act of marriage exercised for pleasure only is entirely free of all fault and venial defect. (from Denzinger, old numbering)<br />I included 1158 for a reason. I don't know many who think we must be consciously keeping other ends in mind. I want to marry a girl, I need money for a ring, so I take up an extra job, gardening say. I need not be thinking "this is to marry that girl" for that intention to be behind and informing my act. It suffices that I have that intention virtually. Same too with habitual grace and merit, I need not always be thinking, this is for Thee God! In order to be acting for God. And when drinking beer I need not always be thinking of the other ends besides pleasure, e.g. conviviality.<br />Anyhow, I will pull out Liguori here and do the translating, since John Boyer is lazy, wherein he even says that one can hope a particular act does not produce a child!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have a rather warped view of Odysseus that emenates from seeing too much the dark side of things, especially of late. So I can little help except to say that Zeus guides the intended harm of Poseidon's actions unto Odysseus' moral rectification. (Much as God thwarts the malice of Satan unto good.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7955" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-29T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-29T23:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I concur with Bond's poet of nature. Without him, no Socrates or Plato. All we have are a bunch of Pythagorians and we all no how much fun mathematicians are </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7956" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T00:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">An excellent point Joshua. My laziness thanks you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Foolishly poking in this thread with no context, are the two propositions above condemned Joshua Kenz?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7958" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T00:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, hence the Condemned in a decree....preceding them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7960" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if I can finish Buffy before the thread runs out of steam. You have three seasons people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7961" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T00:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">These pretzels ... are making me THIRSTY!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes. And i misread it. So thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7963" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T00:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bring on 10000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T00:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">context. That's funny. Kenz returned to a topic about 1000 posts old. I just reminded him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">10000 is a noble goal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T00:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure Daniel Lendman would concur</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We want a six-digit thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7968" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-30T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-30T00:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Huh...I can't see Perescott's posts anymore</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, FB disappeared him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7970" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Thibodeaux" data-date="2014-08-30T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-30T00:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh...then I'm not excommunicated?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7971" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T00:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marina Shea: You like Buffy too? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_7972" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T00:25:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would pay to see the exchange The Peregrine had with Zuckerberg's minions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7973" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry for not translating the PAGES of "cases" They have to do with the liciety during pregnancy, menstruation, the time shortly after giving birth, while breast feeding (yes some moralists denied you could have sex then)<br />From Theologia Moralis, Book 6, vol 4, tractatus 6,,cap 2)<br />927 From the stated cases, the licit use of matrimony is consequently resolved:<br />1. For the sake of offspring (prolis causa); even though this does not necessarily have to be intended while [the marital act] is exercised, as long as it is not positively impeded: on the contrary, sometimes it is even licitly excluded in a simple affection, e.g. from pauperism, lest one is excessively burdened by children.<br />2. For the avoidance of the danger of incontinence on one's own part or that of his partner. Martin Perez from Koninck, Pontius, Hurtatus, etc, against Sanchez, who reckons this to be venial unless, still, they cannot sedate sting of the flesh otherwise (See the aforesaid n. 882, Dubitatio 1. For the same ends, with which it is licit to contract marriage, also dignify [cohonestant] the request for copulation.)<br />3. The cause of health or because of some other extrinsic ends. Since what is dignified from its own nature and related to one end, is licitly refered to another end not repugnant to it; as teaches Sá, Koninck, Laymann, Martin Perez. See Diana-- Nevertheless to use it for the sake of health alone is probably venial, as St. Thomas, Henriquez and Laymann against Martin Perez teac. [see 883 dubitatio 2]<br />More to follow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7974" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan- yeah I started it after a debate with some gentlemen about Spike versus Angel, and well here I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7975" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T00:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice! I've been a fan for years. <br />I see this thread is now on NFP....I think?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7976" class="entry even" data-likes="12" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T00:28:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Um, sir, I'm not sure what SACRED THEOLOGY and the MAGISTERIUM have to do with these requests to block and cancel your account."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh NFP. Yes let's really get into heresy now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua - not to imply you are a heretic. Just that the word often gets tossed around re: NFP and just cause convos</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry, I don't have any arguments for it, but to say you can't unite with your husband because you're breastfeeding (and naturally infertile) or because your pregnant, or because it's Lent, or whatever is just wrong. <br />Just because I say so. <br />I can't even believe people thought this, but they can go eat their hat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7980" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine fwiw I am pretty sure you are good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, the pregnancy thing is especially bad because you're obviously already intending to procreate, since you ARE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7982" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T00:36:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas explicitly says you should not give up sex for lent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T00:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, thanks. But others apparently thought you should, and I think I heard it was a practice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No i think a couple can decide they need to focus on prayer but I think that is a specific call of the Holy Spirit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Such as some being asked to fast in a way others aren't to focus on God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7986" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Timothy Gerard" data-date="2014-08-30T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Gerard at 2014-08-30T00:39:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aloysius Wilson I don't really know any of you here, but I love you all for this thread. One of these days I may sit down and spend a day reading the whole thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We could make a book!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7988" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T00:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It could pay off our collective student debts! Buzzfeed would love it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T00:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LIS way back . . . . . . they had reasons. And if you knew the discipline of the early Church. It is edifying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7990" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T00:43:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">So can you explain these reports about your behavior?<br />No, I've never heard of Thomas Aquinas College before. Where's tha--<br />Wait--ChrisEN-DUMB? What? <br />Oh, *Christendom*. <br />Like the crusades and stuff? <br />I went to Stanford, sir. <br />No, we didn't study ANY dogmas there.<br />Excuse me - that's just rude. Now about your account--WHAT?!? <br />No, I can't contribute money towards a bestiary--that sounds terrible, sir. What the heck is--never mind.<br />Look, it says here you--no, I don't really care what they read or didn't read when they were in college.<br />I'm not talking to you about the MAGISTERIUM, dammit. Look, you call me that again and - OK, we are done here. You, sir, are banned for life. And the great Eye of Google will be watching you, you hear me?<br />We'll. BE. WATCHING. YOU.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HA^<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7992" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-30T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-30T00:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is anyone else wondering if Peregrine Scott is going through withdrawal without this thread? <br />Then again, he may regenerate as someone else...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Christopher Luke" data-date="2014-08-30T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Luke at 2014-08-30T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trevilla That which nourishes me also destroys me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The internet is a big place, Jody. Plenty of places to troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7995" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-30T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-30T00:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well he has a 'thing' for TAC. This isn't the first thread and won't be his last.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7996" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T00:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And so I add<br />882 Dubit. 1<br />Paraphrasing what comes before: There are three ends of matrimony, essential and intrinsic, intrinsic and accidental and extrinsic and accidental. Essential and intrinsic are two: the mutual handing over of selves with the obligation of rendering the debt and the indissoluble bond<br />Accidental and intrinsic are two: procreation of children and remedying concupiscence<br />Accidental and extrinsic are any number of reasons why one might marrying....ending a feud is seriously listed by Liguori. He cites Aquinas (Super Sent IV dist 31 qu. 1 a. 3) that excluding the essential and intrinsic ends invalidate and make the attempt at marriage sinful...so likewise would it in the marital act. However one may exclude the intrinsic accidental ends in marrying (BVM and Joseph)<br />So the question arises (and here my paraphrase ends)<br />Whether one venially sins who marries principally to remedy concupiscence?<br />The first opinion affirms [that it is a sin]. An this St. Thomas holds (S. Th. III suppl. q. 49 a.5 ad 2), and he is followed by Navarre, Natalis Alexander, Concina, Bossius, Sylvester, Henriquez, Ledesma and Sanchez- They prove this by the authority of many holy fathers. Again they prove this by reason, since, although the remedy of concupiscence is even a dignified end of matrimony, still the primary end is the procreation of children, whence it is against the order of reason that a secondary end should be chosen over a primary.<br />But the second opinion, not less common nor less probable, denies one sins in any way. One contracting in this manner does not exclude the end of procreating children. Thus Palau, Roncaglia, Croix, Holzmann, Bossius, Salmant., Koninck, Dicastillo, Pontius, Peter Soto, Gabriel, Almaino, Covarruvias, etc. And again Cajetan, Major, Durandus, Richard, Palacios, Sá, Medina, Philiarchus, Angles, Perez, Ugolinus, etc, with Sanchez. (and they say this of spouses, asserting the same of spouses who copulate principally for sedating concupiscence.) The reason for this opinion is, since matrimony is instituted by God, not only for the procreation of offspring, but also for the remedy of concupiscence, as is proved by the Apostle 1 Cor. 7:2, where he says: Because of fornication...., one should have his wife, and she should have her husband.<br />Nevertheless, St. Thomas answers this text (S. Th Suppl q. 49 a. 5 ad 2) thus saying "If anyone intends by the act of matrimony to avoid fornication on the part of his spouse, this is not a sin; since this is a certain rendering of the debt...But if he intends to avoid fornication in himself, thus there is in that something superfluous and according to this it is a venial sin, neither is marriage instituted for this, except according to indulgence which concerns venial sins."--- <br />But with the pardon of such a Doctor (whose opinions I studiously bow down to in the rest of matters), the interpretation of St. John Chrysostom seems rather more appropriate, whose words I will offer soon below, and which is followed by Estius, Salmeron, and Cornelius: namely, that "because of fornication" is not undersood of avoiding the fornication of one's spouse, but of oneself. And this seems to be born from the context of the same Apostle where he says: "It is good for man to not touch woman, but because of fornication any which should have his wife and anywhich her husband." See how the Apostle present a counsel to men to abstain from touching women. But if they are in danger of incontinence, lest they fall into fornication, he permits not only a remedy, but urges it, saying "any one should have his wife." And although he adds "But I say this according to indulgence, not according to comman." still it advances that for them who are not incontinent, he only permits them to marry, when he says "I say to those not married and widows: it is goodfor them to remain thus, just as I am also." Neither does "indulgence" here import permission for venial fault; for truly, as Pontius says with Estius, Salmerone and Cornelius, I would not dare to grant leave for sinning lightly, but rather to permit what is licit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7997" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T00:45:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Note how when he disagree with St. Thomas, he feels the need to list every one else who does over and over....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7998" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T00:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will post the rest, including his quoting the Father referred above a little later</p>
</li>
<li id="post_7999" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T00:48:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope The Peregrine is OK. He's obviously NOT in some ways, but I hope somehow the Thread contributed to his and his family's good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps I can put it another way. In every age the Church has slackened discipline. We are pretty pathetic both as to our love of God and our governance of our appetites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8001" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-30T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-30T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes -- I hope he is ok too. Not so sure anything contributed toward his good - but people tried</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8002" class="entry even" data-likes="11" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T00:49:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does it say about me that I drove 500 miles today and still had thought to lug Liguori with me? I know....NERD!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8003" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T00:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It says great things about you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I do stuff like that too. Those are the things that stick in my craw. So maybe not so great. But we like it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T01:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THANKS, Joshua. That is helpful. Much interesting stuff in there. It also seems to confirm something i have have been pondering. And i really love Liguori.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8006" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sequitur to the 882 above<br />Now since the Divine Paul recalls his sermon to those who are in danger of incontinence, he does not only permit but als absolutely exhorts them to marriage, saying "But if they do not contain themselves, they ought to marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt." For "nubant" more truthfully imports exhortation than permission-- This is well confirmed from this that the Aposle says in the same place, where speaking of spouses, he writes: "Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency." If, therefore, it is permitted for spouses to request the debt for the avoidance of incontinence, it will be permitted also for the same end to enter marriage.<br />Hence St. John Chrysostom, explaining the text of the Apostle, says that one of the reasons why God instituted marriage was to avoid incontinence--- Behold his words "What, therefore, was the reason for marriage? And why was it given by God? Hear what Paul says": for the avoiding of adulteries, everyone should have his wife, etc "That we should avoid adultery, lest we be consumed by concupiscence..., securing a wife of one's own, he conveys to us marriage, here its fruit, this hence its profit..., in this it belongs to those seeking marriage to be helped toward leading a life chastely.." Thus the holy Doctor.<br />To the authorities of the Holy Fathers which are opposed, the author Petrocorensis answers that therefore the Fathers condemned spouses since they supposed them to follow the impetus of lust.<br />Now in answer to the reason for the contrary opinion, namely that it is a disorder to choose the secondary end over the primary, it is answered that it would certainly be a disorder, if the primary end were ordered to the secondary; but not if, from two licit ends the secondary is chosen before the primary--- Still, accidental and intrinsic ends of this sort (whether procreating offspring or avoiing incontinence), in order to be dignified, must be refered to God, if not actually, at least virtually or habitually; as is commonly handed down by Sanchez, Pontius, Bossius, Reginald, Villalbos, Filliuccio, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-30T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz what is the name of the text you are quoting and where is it available? Is it a particular moral manual by Ligouri?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8008" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">883 addresses "extrinsic ends" such as marrying to avoid shame, to end strife, etc. And the same, mutandis mutandi, applies to the use of marriage.<br />My summation is this: it is sinful to subjugate more primary ends to less ones, as if they were ordered to them. Or to act for a reason repugnant to them. It is not a sin to act, consciously, for a licit end, while only intending the other ends habitually or virtually, just as in my gardening example, the intention to marry the girl is not thought of while I contend with fixing the mower, but it underlies my entire endeavor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liguori's Passion and Glories of Mary are wonderful but his little book on Uniformity with Will of God was a Godsend. Neat anecdote that loved listening to it near his end (blind) and didnt realize it was his. He suffered a lot at the end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8010" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is from his massive Theologia Moralis. All passages from the 4th volume, book 6, tractatus 6, cap 2. Dubia 1 &2, I posted sections 927 and then 882 which was referenced by it<br />You can find it if you look really hard through used and rare books. TAC I think had a single copy in the rare books room</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks again. The part on strife is interesting too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-30T01:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks much! for reference, these look like google-books editions of the latin:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-30T01:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.php?topic=3193418.0<br />Theologia Moralis [Latin] by St. Alphonsus de Liguori<br />Theologia Moralis [Latin] by St. Alphonsus de Liguori<br />FISHEATERS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8014" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of the Latin? Is there any other (those translations above were all my own! AFAIK not published in English...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8015" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-30T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh no I didn't mean to imply that there is a secret English version in my back pocket </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8016" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The edition I have is from 1954, it is organized into 4 volumes....I think what I was quoting is volume 7 of what you linked</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-30T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cool.<br />Looks like B&N sells a paperback version of at least the first two volumes:<br />http://www.barnesandnoble.com/.../theologia.../1114630853...<br />Theologia Moralis, Volumes 1-2<br />Available in: Paperback. FREE SHIPPING on orders of $25 or more. Theologia Moralis, Volumes 1-2 by Saint...<br />BARNESANDNOBLE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is meamt by "refered to God"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8019" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Warning: In this section he raises some very explicit questions and answers. E.g. (to be less explicit) on irrumatio and other indebita vasa</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8020" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, Mr. Hall looks like a self-publishing sort of thing, sort of how Lagrange's "Reality" was published via Lulu....interesting. I guess that helps make these rare books available again!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8021" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-30T01:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess these internets are good for something after all!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger, isn't it no more than with all acts of Christians, that they must be referred to God, as to our final end?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8023" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T01:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Hall: of course the internet is good for something. It gave birth to this thread, did it not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That makes sense. I thought it meant to pray to God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8025" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW, I did a quick count in my head: I have approx 96 volumes of just moral theology (not counting general works that include it, the Summa, etc). If I am not lazy, I am fairly certain I can find just about any question address by moralists, at least before 1970....without leaving my home! It is more comprehensive than Google I find!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8026" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T01:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually make that 97...but does Jone, OFM count....He was the one who had the chart for calculating the "true midnight" for fasting (rather than those modernist time zones)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T01:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Hall at 2014-08-30T01:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you going to be working as a moral theologian professionally?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T01:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">true midnight. That's great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8029" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T02:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua of course Jone counts; I own him too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8030" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T02:11:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Hall Nope! Have you ever read those dreary things? I tend to find the field, as such, to be a swamp of error.<br />The moralists are fundamentally flawed because of an exaggerated and wrong view of conscience. Compare St. Thomas, he focuses on Prudence, conscience is a very minor element, as it is in reality. Pinckaers recognized this problem, as did Ralph McIrnerny though at least the former ignored the exceptions over the last 400 years, mostly Thomists that were not writing specifically as moralists and protestant (Reformed) theologians who followed Thomas closely in many areas here<br />Liguori, frankly, is the only real causist that is worthwhile, and that is because his equiprobabilism gives a backdoor (as seen in 883) for arguments of virtue and natural law, and scripture. But even he does the "just list the authorities on either side" and the "case studies for everything" a bit too much<br />Dr. Lamont from the Catholic Institute of Sydney wrote a great article, called Conscience, Freedom, Rights: Idols of the Enlightenment Religion. In the Thomist no. 73 (2009)<br />He states: "This wholesale dismissal of four hundred years of Catholic moral theology perhaps requires some defence. One might ask the general question why, if moralities of conscience are as bad as all that, it was possible for the Church, guided as she is by the Holy Spirit, to go so far wrong for so long? And one may ask the particular question how the Church could have canonized St. Alphonsus Liguori, declared him a Doctor, and officially taught that his solutions to moral questions were safe to follow? Saint Alphonsus, after all, worked within the framework of moralities of conscience. If such moralities are wrong, his approach must be wrong, and he should not have been given this endorsement.<br />The answer to the question about St. Alphonsus is that his approach of equiprobabilism, by requiring that one begin by determining whether command or freedom should be treated as in possession, allowed reasoning about the actual moral issue to return to moral reflection through the back door. Partly as a result, his personal solutions to moral dilemmas were distinguished by good judgment. The answer to the question about moralities of conscience in general is that a key component of them, the casuistic method, could in fact be made to serve some useful purposes."<br />I do recommend that whole article....it articulated nicely the thoughts that had been forming, but not yet articulated, through my own reading of the tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8031" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T02:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, I exaggerate a bit...but only a bit...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua I agree. Thankfully the Protestant casuists got Thomas right; vide Kelly, "Conscience, Dictator or Guide?" which shows this. Sanderson and Taylor are fantastic, with none of the legalism of the indeed dreary post-Trid RC tradition</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T02:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kelly by the way is Roman Catholic himself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8034" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T02:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where may one find that article?<br />Here is Lamont's btw (loaded it up)<br />https://docs.google.com/.../0B3j1qptMEOqndXVUTnc1.../edit...<br />Conscience-freedom-rights.pdf - Google Drive<br />DOCS.GOOGLE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8035" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T02:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pinckaers is kind of a sneak in not letting his readers know that the Protestant casuists got Thomas right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T02:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and thanks for the Lamont!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T02:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Kelly's is a book....hmm...another book for my already too big till I get a place of my own library or a fungible good, like gunpowder for reloading bullets....dilemmas, dilemmas...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T02:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Outstanding texts, Joshua. And yes, you are a nerd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8039" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T02:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On a more important note, Marina Shea, Spike is totally better than Angel, though Angel, I think, is a better series than Buffy (especially after they made Willow a lesbian)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8040" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T02:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which they also did to Buffy in the season 8 comics, because yay perversity-diversity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8041" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T02:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The facts revealed in this thread never cease to amaze me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Penn" data-date="2014-08-30T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Penn at 2014-08-30T03:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, thanks for the Lamont as well, as I too will download it. The Kelly is a worthy add, but then so is the gunpowder. And if you ever reload your way into an excess of .308, I'll buy some off you so you can turn that cash into the book. No dilemma, then!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T02:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real question is who is more annoying, Lesbo-Willow with her emoting, or Conor (the actor behind whom is also annoying in Mad Men). I find it apropos that they actually changed reality to get rid of Conor....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T03:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't seen Conor yet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conner is in Angel - the spin off of Buffy. I detest Conner, so annoying. I do agree that Willow gets annoying in later series - but not necessarily due to the lesbianism. It's more of her willful trampling over the feelings of others and her unbridled arrogance. She's the worst in season 6, slightly better in season 7.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8046" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T04:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T04:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am now lost.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8047" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-30T05:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-30T05:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Answering Joel's Q from a ways above on the Friday Night lecture on why separated souls are not persons: it was by John O'Callaghan, and was later published here: http://books.google.at/books?id=rKGz2R0GiIIC&lpg=PA100...<br />Aquinas the Augustinian<br />The influence Of St Augustine's thought upon that of St Thomas Aquinas is well known. With the exception of...<br />BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8048" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-30T05:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-30T05:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also my prediction on how the next round of NFP discussion will go: first Wendy Irene will join the thread and shed such a luminous light of good sense on the Q that for a moment even Big Angry Daniel and Samantha will agree, but this momentary agreement will then be dissipated when Franklin Salazar comes in and infuriates half of the thread with some theory about 'Ecological breastfeeding' or something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-08-30T05:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-08-30T05:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Which they also did to Buffy in the season 8 comics, because yay perversity-diversity' - Joshua, I did *not* need to know that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8050" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T07:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T07:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I would like to point out that I really never had a position that I argued for, other than saying "such and such" seems to be what the Scriptures and the Fathers would hold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-30T07:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-30T07:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson: you should go to TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T07:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope I at least disabused you of the way Scriptures part of your claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T07:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We never go to finish, sadly, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T07:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Despite your valiant attempts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T07:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund's prediction sounds nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8056" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T07:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T07:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dan, remember that time we agreed about Creon? That was nice too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T07:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T07:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz did you come down on a side of this debate (that I never really intended to begin).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8058" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T07:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T07:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also remember calling you a fascist. Not my proudest moment, to be sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T07:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T07:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was that because I was against everything and not for anything? Or to do with being pro Creon?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T07:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T07:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The former.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T07:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T07:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">T'was neither politic, nor fair... but that my describe most of my later teen years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8062" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T08:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T08:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, mine too. Possibly also my later twenties. I'm sure by my later thirties I'll have learned some policy and fairness though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8063" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T08:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T08:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw: i assume the reason that the reason for refraining from conjugal acts while a woman is breastfeeding is that it is generally an infertile period. That conforms to Samantha's thesis that woman are baby factories which is what sex is for (Cf. # 5,342.5)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8064" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T08:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Breastfeeding is nature's way of "spacing" children, a vastly superior way than NFP. While it is the role of art to perfect nature, nevertheless art must follow nature. Sadly, that is not the case when a couple falls prey to the temptation to rationalize the need for "planning" their children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T09:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[I used to be ambivalent but have seen the ill effect.] And I have a "real apprehension" that Harry Potter is from hell. Heads spun and all that; it was scary. I wont argue since reason does not prevail on the issue. Also first hand testimony from exorcists should give pause. Way too much wrong with HP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8066" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T08:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the whole "breastfeeding is natures way of 'spacing' children" does not work universally. My wife exclusively breastfed and she gave birth to our second less than a year after the first. <<Bubble Pop>></p>
</li>
<li id="post_8067" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T08:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">you probably won't learn policy and fairness.... you went to TAC and are an arrogant grad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">generally though. And we have one exception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T08:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fallen nature defies total compliance with universal principles, but the principles are still universal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8070" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T08:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, nature is pretty unreliable about spacing children. I'm pretty certain nature wants me to have waaaaaay more children than I could handle while retaining my sanity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8071" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are often not the best judges in our own cases. That is why, if I am not mistaken, NFPers should seek spiritual direction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8072" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8073" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In any event, I would say nature is pretty reliable when it comes to spacing children. Otherwise we would not call it natural. Exceptions prove the rule.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds circular Jeffrey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8075" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">when we had three in diapers at the same time, and my wife exclusively breastfed.....yeah spacing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8076" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T09:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews oh. yeah. No. Especially in first world countries where nutrition is better so the body doesn't have to work too hard to keep both mom and baby alive. Any NFP group out there will show you the naturally occurring spacing is......very short. And not predictable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8077" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How so? Whatever happens always or for the most part cannot be by chance. We don't have to establish that there is nature; it is self-evident.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">certainly, Jeffrey, but there are other factors than just breastfeeding, sleeping habits and as Bekah pointed out, nutrition contribute to the time period</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8079" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't it generally the first world folks who, by any objective standard, are less in need of NFP but who have rationalized it to maintain a certain standard of living? The NFP groups have an agenda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8080" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-08-30T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-08-30T11:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Pater Edmund writes : "this momentary agreement will then be dissipated when Franklin Salazar comes in and infuriates half of the thread with some theory about 'Ecological breastfeeding' or something."<br />Not theory. I simply write it like it is, and most Catholics don't like reading it for the simple reason that people typically don't enjoy having their most precious ox gored.<br />For instance, NFP is not natural as in the natural method of spacing babies that God intended, but is instead naturally medicinal caused by a disorder in society, and as opposed to correcting their culture caused disorder they promote a medicinal bandage mistaking its purpose for being what it is not.<br />NFP types don't like reading that the most common way NFP is promoted is disordered. But then again on the flip side, neither do the super sized catholic family promoters like reading that far from being a mark of the Faith, their super sized families are likewise a sign of disorder. <br />And so yes, I do on occasion infuriate people, but hopefully I also help them see past themselves. But I would hope for better from TACers who spent years in class practicing being wrong and politely taking it.<br />http://catholiccultureandsociety.blogspot.com/.../nfp-is...<br />http://catholiccultureandsociety.blogspot.com/.../supersi...<br />Catholic Culture and Society: NFP is harmful to a marriage.<br />This blog is about : Organic Catholicism. . . . . Organic Catholicism is at human scale. It's eminently practical, and simple. . . . . It's back to nature, as in back to our nature. It looks at the world around us according to our nature, which in turn is to look at the world simply . . . . . . . .…<br />CATHOLICCULTUREANDSOCIETY.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that may be true in some cases, but because continence is abused doesn't make the method in itself immoral</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8082" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one has said the method itself is immoral. But the method is readily an occasion for self-centered judgment about one's needs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T09:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[I am not judging btw but am concerned with principle. The burden is serious and our society makes it very hard. The culture in profound ways works against normal, viz. nature. ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8084" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which means that one needs good spiritual direction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T09:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Uh. No again. I'm a first world gal. And I cannot have children ten months apart. Which my body seems to think I should do. But then again, my body also thinks I should have pre eclampsia every pregnancy. And my conscience thinks I should homeschool my kids. So , yeah. Not about the standard of living. And again. Visit any NFP group, lots on facebook. I challenge you to find one person who is practicing it to maintain a standard of living.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8086" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, I'll concede whatever point you're making about nature, if you'll concede that breastfeeding very often gives an extremely short space or even no space at all between pregnancies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you concede a point that is categorized as "whatever point you're making"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mostly I mean I will stop trying to argue with it, which I would like to do since it doesn't seem germain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">germane?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Germane.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8091" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is true that nature acts always or for the most part, but it is also true that art perfects nature. <br />What is further true is that when evaluating moral circumstances one is always dealing with particulars and never abstractions. Consequently, universals often break down in their application. <br />This is why it is helpful to have a Spiritual adivsor in such matters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8092" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha:<br />http://images5.fanpop.com/.../jermaine-jermaine-jackson...?<br />IMAGES5.FANPOP.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8094" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed. As for art perfecting nature, that art must still follow nature, i.e., take its bearings from nature. Art cannot establish an end apart from nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8095" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Thus the "perfects" part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8096" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cannot prove that standard of living is a cause for folks misusing NFP, nor can the contrary be demonstrated. But I can look in my own heart, and listen to the concerns of others expressing what is in theirs, and then realize that maintaining a certain standard of living is a great temptation. To flat out deny that this is a temptation for NFPers seems mistaken given my admittedly limited experience on this earth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8097" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">as far as standard of living goes, here in the greater Chicago area I could live in less expensive neighborhoods, but I have an obligation not only to produce children, but to keep them safe and to educate them. Consequently, the must higher cost of living is for the sake of the children too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8098" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T09:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is prima facie at least implausible that anyone who takes the Catholic Church seriously enough to exclusively use a rather unreliable and in any case somewhat onerous method like NFP is in it to maintain a consumerist lifestyle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8099" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The main standard of living I want to maintain, is one where I'm not losing my mind and all my hair from stress</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8100" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Understood. I cannot judge your case Michael, nor anyone else's unless they set it before me in all its particulars and ask me to help them discern what's right. So I am merely noting that maintaining a certain standard of living is a temptation for NFPers. Not a terribly controversial point, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8101" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T09:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I have moved from being dismayed to alarmed over the years at how many people assume Catholics trying to live their vocation according to Church teaching are assumed to have weak or selfish motives. Rather than assuming they are making the choices they are enlightened by the grace of the sacrament of matrimony. NFP is freakin' hard. If you want to have a cushy lifestyle, and that's your primary motivation, you're not going to use NFP to get there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, but that "certain standard of living" can easily be just</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T09:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Maintaining a certain standard of living.....what does that mean? And how is this particular temptation unique to NFPers?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah! Especially when you're not even 100% convinced by the Church's arguments against ABC anyway</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8105" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T09:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz reading on my phone makes jumping around in the thread difficult. Could you recap the Liguori and the condemnation thingy for me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8106" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just want to leave my mansion in the gated community, take the top down on my bentely and buy designer clothes for my kids. Is that so wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8107" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps the overall point in all of this, Jeffery, is that one must be very careful how one phrases the sorts of universals that your are forwarding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8108" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T09:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The temperature has finally dropped below 95, so I'm off for a run to help maintain my decadent standard of living. See ya!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8109" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T09:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Must run to the post office to maintain my very low standard of living, but will happily return to this when I can.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point would be that, even though NFP may be used poorly, its still better than ABC, and can still be a means to perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8111" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T09:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T09:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Salazar points to some of the underlying problem which is the main cause for Samantha's hair loss and is not caused by the nature of too closely spaced kids per se. The culture is anti physin. The anxiety is not normal but caused by extrinsic disorders.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8112" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I suppose I could tone my life-style down a bit:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8113" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">All mothers should have household servants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8114" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's what older children are for</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not good enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8116" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(208, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:33:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">my oldest is the perfect servant. Woke up to a nice fresh pot of coffee this morning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8117" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-30T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-30T09:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My kids fall woefully short as servants which is probably the fault of the master.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8118" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:35:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">my oldest used to get up with the youngest and change his diaper before anyone else got up, then make coffee. Raise 'em right!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8119" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I've said it before, and I will say it again:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8120" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-30T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-30T09:35:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a hard time when we compare ourselves today to those of say my great grandparents who raised ten kids on what they grew on the land. It's almost like when we complain we have so much to do and so little time and yet we have machines that wash our clothes and out dishes. Cost of living has gone up, yes, but we do pay significantly less percentage of our budget wise for food and clothing. Also, with regards to the natural spacing, it really does depend on the woman. Ok... I had more thoughts... But pregnancy brain killed them... Oh right! <br />Also oftentimes God knows what is best. I read an article by someone who's husband had cancer so they decided to avoid pregnancy... They got pregnant anyways and it was the best thing that happened because it have them someone/something else to focus on. God won't give you more than you can handle, though he may try to test your patience and trust </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8121" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no my oldest is great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-30T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-30T09:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, is your oldest a girl?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8124" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren,that was sexist. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8125" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">thank heavens</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-30T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-30T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow! You're really Doing something right then!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8127" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T09:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND to add to Michael's point the hardest time is the firsu three in diapers. It actually gets easier after that (just dont tell my wife that )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8128" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not me. I claim credit for nothing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8129" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, that's twice! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8130" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, also sexist. My daughter is the least useful of the older 3</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8131" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T09:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(also the youngest of the 3)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-30T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-30T09:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I must just have bad examples of raising boys well </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8133" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T09:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of the city in the country the natural order is more discernable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8134" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T09:45:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">In general, I find it very dangerous and unprofitable to tell good Christian mothers what they should or should not do. Circumstances vary too greatly. <br />I started this whole cancerous NFP discussion, I know. But my interests were purely speculative. <br />Again, even if people are mis-using NFP, the fact that they care about that at all is a huge improvement over the status quo, and will surely lead them to further graces. This is not the battle we need to fight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8135" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T10:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">[btw Pater Edmund is the ultimate troll. Did anyone see him pop in, throw that fiery cocktail and run?]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8136" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T09:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is this person, and what has he done with Daniel Lendman? Venial Sin, not a big deal? No need to tell others what to do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8137" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-08-30T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-30T09:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well we could do a better job teaching the just and serious reasons to avoid instead of teaching it as a simple alternative to contraception...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8138" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T09:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wake up and the convo is still sex? Y'all have dirty minds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8139" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T10:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dangerous, Daniel, indeed as if this thread weren' testimony enough. Of course after 15 years, I still haven't figured out how not to tell a certain Maureen O' Hara - did i say that - what to do. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8140" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T10:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, you have no idea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8141" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T10:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, hardship has tempered me from what I was in my fiery youth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8142" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T10:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In seriousness, though: In general, one ought not to try to root out every habitual venial sin all at once. This is almost always too much and often very harmful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8143" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, venial sins are very common..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8144" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T10:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren Ogrodnick, I think that is true, but I also think that our catechesis and evangelization need to acknowledge that we live in a post-Christian society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would rather people abuse NFP than be pushed away from the Church altogether.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T10:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews My experience says that those who use NFP tend to be drawn closer to the Church. Self sacrifice will do that. NFP is hard enough that those who might "abuse" it more than likely will cease, as your motivations for continuing to deny yourself are strongest when you know it is for the family's benefit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T10:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger-- I am amazed at your willingness to state what the casue of my hair loss is with such certainty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8148" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T10:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a matter of fact, you are quite wrong. I do pretty well once my babies are born, but pregnancy ruins me. Unfortunately no number of servants can fix that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8149" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T10:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have actually not lost my hair, btw. That was sort of a figure of speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T10:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i figured.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And i didn't specify the causes (doing so might really heat things up. But the culture is anti physin. Bearing children is heroic, moreso for some women but our society adds so many anxieties, so few reliefs. That is all.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8152" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T10:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews You need to keep in mind, bearing children....that's the first part. Of an minimum eighteen year commitment. A commitment to educating them and forming them with love and patience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i was just responding to Samantha's point, very valid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8154" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T10:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have changed my profile picture to one which proves I still have hair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8155" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T10:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because I am vain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T10:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of the venial sins I should be more concerned about than anything to do with NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8157" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T11:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a little saddened at the fact that my Willow meme above has been so neglected.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is Willow? Buffy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8159" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T11:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Top o' the mornin'!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8160" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-30T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-30T11:34:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha I've expanded my "probably horrible post" into an essay which you can read on google docs: https://docs.google.com/.../1RTeD.../edit...<br />Have I mentioned that I think it admirable that you are against contraception even though as a Protestant you don't see the argument from infallible authority against it? Because I do think it admirable.<br />Natures as Words, Contraception as Lying - Google Docs<br />DOCS.GOOGLE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8161" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T11:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If this conversation is dying we could always talk about the War of Northern Aggression, or something similarly uncontroversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T11:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ford > Chevy discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about the southern rebellion instead? [Or which Leviathan would you fight for 8 score years later? ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8164" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T11:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fine, I guess I will actually read it. I'm at the playground now though. Still suspect it is probably horrible but thanks for your kindness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8165" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T12:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">alright, I've got to clear up some thoughts about Harry Potter (garbage though it may be)<br />1) you're either born magical, or not. No special gnosis<br />2) it is a "natural talent" in the book that needs honing like any other natural talent<br />now let's consider another popular movie series, X-Men (garbage though it may be)<br />1) you're either born mutant, or you're not, no special gnosis<br />2) it is a "natural talent" in the series that needs special honing, like any other natural talent, hence Xavier's school<br />I hear rants against HP but not X-Men. why? is it simply the word "magic". Call them mutants instead and you have the same result</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8166" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T12:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, how can I refuse an invitation from you, Pater Edmund? Although even you cannot make me read quite all the previous comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T12:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To Father: the analogy fails it seems or I don't understand. Does thwarting procreation correspond to avoiding unjust death (in the case of Athanatius? Or what is being compared?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8168" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T12:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apropos of the "when is it OK to have marital relations" discussion, I think it's helpful to remember that the marriage union is, of its nature, "the sort of union which is ordered to children (both bringing them to being and raising them to be good adults, i.e., procreation and education)." And also, to remember that it is good for children for their parents to be united. So, engaging in marital relations even at infertile times, by uniting the spouses, is not "merely" unitive, but secondarily procreative because it promotes good circumstances for the education (in the broad sense) of the children. Any time you're talking about the unitive in marriage, it's going to be referred to procreative -- because that's precisely the kind of unity you get in marriage (qua marriage) (did you notice that I used qua? )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When Mr. Smith Goes to TACshington: filibustering to prove a point... a sadly forgotten art... The Constitution of the United States: <br />We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.<br />Article. I.<br />Section. 1.<br />All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.<br />Section. 2.<br />The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.<br />No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.<br />Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.<br />When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.<br />The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.<br />Section. 3.<br />The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof, for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.<br />Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.<br />No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.<br />The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.<br />The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.<br />The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.<br />Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.<br />Section. 4.<br />The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.<br />The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.<br />Section. 5.<br />Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.<br />Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.<br />Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.<br />Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8170" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T12:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I grant, of course, that that kind of union (marriage, i.e. a union ordered to procreation & education of children) is perfected by other kinds of union, such as charity and friendship. But they are not the essence of marriage, but rather something from the outside needed to make it the best it can be. It's something like a...say...flower planting club. What makes it a f. p. club is the members get together to plant flowers. They could hate each other and still be a club. But they'll be a really good club if they are friends and love each other with charity.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8171" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-08-30T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-08-30T12:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">why is the constitution...ok, never mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T12:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I have mostly forgot X-Men and dont remember its insights or what virtues it promotes or how it makes more reasonable the imagination, once called the mad woman of the house in more 'bigoted' times, but no kids go out to buy or search online a how to be a mutant book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in HP you can't "become" a witch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">These mashed potatoes are so creamy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caesar Romero was tall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T12:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">is tall in the category of "relation" or in "quality"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8177" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-30T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-30T12:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, filibustering is somewhat less impressive when you can cut and paste.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we're all just treading water until Pope Bonbon comes back</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and what are the other effects on youth from reading HP again and again sometimes: read HP I. Do not the main protagonists not only go unpunished but even prevail by breaking rules (magic irl). What are the differences in character among the various adherents to different school? Does any one else notice how Baconian the characters are in their attitude of dominance over nature (and remember Bacon commended study of the occult arts in his New Atlantis)? . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb, irl one can.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8181" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(19, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can I just say, before I go off to read Pater Edmund's probably horrible piece, that anyone who reads HP and then decides they would like to become a witch is a bad reader, which is not JK Rowling's fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're right, it's totally Baconian. Burn them all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">except Ryan Burke- apparently FB has limits to the length of texts.. so... it actually took an hour to get it all formatted to fit into little pieces... I couldn't even do one article at a time... however, unfortunately the subtlety in my argument was missed...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so BLAME the misformed kids who do. . . nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T12:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Except for the part where Dumbledore rewards Neville for standing up to his friends when those friends were going to do something they weren't supposed to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8186" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-30T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-30T12:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sadly missed the original Harry Potter discussion, but will just say that all the arguments against Harry Potter I've ever heard have been ridiculous, so I assume the ones here were too. "Baconian" indeed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we have larger battles to fight than ones over Harry Potter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I personally doubt that such kids exist, John, but if they do, then their problems are not JK Rowling's fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I blame their parents, public schools, etc</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8190" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-30T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-30T13:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Similarly, Jonn, those who take away from HP "no rules are important" (whose existence would need to be proven since that is clearly not the point) are also very bad readers, not readers of bad books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">its interesting there is one blog dedicated to the occult in society by an atheist who demonstrates that influence of HP. He argued against kids reading it without parental guidance. Noteworthy is that his interest lead him to join an occult society that he didnt see as harmful. His own wife was led to witchcraft because of her love of HP. But for them it was ok being their own choice. Yet they wouldnt let their kids read it bc they recognized the unwitting influence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8192" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, it is interesting that there are crazy people in the world. I agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8193" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T13:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harry Potter sucks?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8194" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-30T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-30T13:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not falling for it, Adrw Lng</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i only became belligerent on the topic when i was alarmed at how catholic parents would more zealously defend HP than the Bible. Before which i was ambivalent, but since, I have seen much worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so it doesn't effect you or your kids in any way. That is good but why so zealous a defense of what is at best amusement or candy as several said?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm ambivalent. Like I said, there's a huge crossover with X-Men, but sub "mutant" for "magic". X-Men are pretty Machiavellian, as is HP. <br />I keep saying it is crap. <br />BUt .... it does offer talking points as to why might doesn't make right, or why it isn't okay to do bad things even if the end is to be sought after.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8198" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">the more important thing is to TALK to you children about what they're reading, regardless of what it is (unless totally inappropriate).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a candy of which I am particularly fond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8200" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You should see what happens if you attack chocolate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer salty snacks to sweet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chocolate is meh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8203" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael. I thought you were my friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd prefer tortilla chips and salsa any day of the week.<br />Plus I like my snacking with beer, and that more includes the salty</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">because as Thomas says, it is the moisture and the heat which produces the sweet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8206" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-30T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-30T13:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that the Bible is superior to Harry Potter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8207" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">IDK, the Bible has lots of sex in it (JOKE)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8208" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harry Potter is not "occult"; "magic" in the HP cycle is a trope for "old liberal arts/learning", and "Muggledom" is technocratized society. The rest of it is just typical YA book plot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is some clever candy that is fascinating. If it were complete crap none would defend it (although i am not so sure anymore)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8210" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am old enough to remember when churches had their undies all up in a knot over Dungeons and Dragons, so I've seen this before</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8211" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't defend it from just claims of being mind candy. But I think it is worse to accuse something of being more than it is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read 2 or 3 HP books, and it is badly written derivative drivel. I'm always amazed the books have such intelligent defenders. But the criticisms (other than that it is crap writing and lazy uninspired storytelling) are even stupider.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Samantha Cohoe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8214" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(56, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not defending it against anything other than charges of being gateway into Evil</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">like I said, its mostly just typical YA stuff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8216" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T13:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF,<br />No problem. In 1679 the Holy Office condemned a series of proposition which included that idea that you could eat solely for pleasure, as long as it wasn't against health, and have marital relations solely for pleasure. The upshot is that either is at least venially sinful<br />Liguori argues that marrying or having marital relations for the sake of secondary ends (like remedying concupiscence) or even external and accidental ends (ending strife) is not sinful, and he argues it doesn't disorder the ends, because choosing to do X for a licit end does not necessarily means subordinating a higher end to that end. Nor does it mean excluding that higher end, just as with merit, the intention to direct the act toward God need not be consciously made at all times, but can be virtually present.<br />He even argues that, in grave cases, one may even have a certain affect, a hope if you will, that this act of relations will not produce children.<br />I was trying to address Big Angry's "it is probably venially sinful" position. Liguori recognizes that the Fathers, and in an attenuated way St. Thomas holds this, so he goes at greater lengths than normal (while pointing out that he bows down to St. Thomas as an authority...obsequi is the verb there) to argue the contrary position, relying on another Father and reason I think he succeeds.<br />So if a husband or wife is moved, in this instance, because of libido, toward requesting the debt, that is no sin, as long as they do not will or act in a way repugnant to the more primary ends of marriage (like procreating).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8217" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T13:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just read Pater Edmund's excellent essay entitled "Natures as Words, Contraception as Lying." He persuasively argues that lying is to equivocation as contraception is to NFP. This analogy is very helpful to our discussion. After all, equivocation is not the norm; truth telling is. Likewise, NFP cannot be the norm; complete openness to new life is. Equivocation is tricky business. So too is NFP. I may well be misinterpreting the underlying assumptions of some of the comments made on this thread, but some seem to be arguing as if NFP is the norm because nature doesn't establish a standard and so we, who know better for ourselves, must do so. In this context it is worth thinking about Pater Edmund's claim that a false view of nature underlies the contraceptive mentality. I think he is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JAson, I don't think I want to be Elfstar anymore</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8219" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">right but being Elfstar in D and D didn't lead to you being Sepulchrus the Batwinged, High Priest of Satan, in real life</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not high literature by any means, so I agree with most of you. I disagree that HP is a portal into the occult. I strongly believe that anyone claiming that HP led them into the occult is being somewhat disingenuous. I'm thinking there were probably other contributing factors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8221" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">any opportunity to reference a Chick Tract</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8222" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the net effect of HP on kids is to increase interest in learning Latin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm tempted to go find that one Chick tract against dungeons and dragons, JA Escalante.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8224" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP<br />Dark Dungeons<br />Debbie thought playing Dungeons and Dragons was fun...until it destroyed her friend.<br />CHICK.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The moral principle of imposing one's will upon nature to what ends we will pervades the Potter world (as Bacon's). But what of conforming one's mind and will to nature, not visa-versa? What of leisurely things is absent in Potter that is present in LOTR? Are the muggle world and that of Hogworts 2 sides of a coin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there you go Joel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8227" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's compromise-- chocolate covered pretzels.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just ate some peanut M&Ms... breakfast of champions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8229" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, so you think Ligouri meshes with the 1679 commendation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John that's an excellent question, but I think Rowling makes it clear that familial and friendly love is the only real "magic"; that's sort of the whole point of Harry vs Tom (Voldemort). She's not in favor of "white" instrumentalism of the sort you're talking about</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8231" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T13:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iow, it's not a Baconian parable</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a Latin teacher, I can absolutely attest that the effect of Harry Potter in encouraging kids to learn Latin is real</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8233" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I dont 'believe' it is a gateway to the occult." Are the exorcists lying? What is the argument?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8234" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the claim is that HP + (other) = interest in the occult. but it is the (other) that is the interest in the occult, not HP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8235" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T13:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">How does this fit in with NFP? Well when NFP is used to avoid pregnancy, there is a certain affection that this act will not produce a child. To have this hope or desire, and not be, in intention, rejecting the end of procreation I think is the tricky part. Such as dieting and fasting both can involve abstaining from food, yet differ specifically in their object and not just by intention, abstinence in NFP differs objectively from abstinence for some other reason. The desire not to have children produced through these acts of marital intercourse is present in those acts, so it is not the abstaining, but the having sex in the context of avoidance that raises the issue.<br />I think if we combine Liguori and Langley (who is just echoing De Koninck), we can say this:<br />The ends of marriage must be present, at least virtually, in the marital act. This includes procreation. It need not be conscious. The sort of act that it is, without employing means to frustrate these ends in the act, includes as it were by default a procreative end (even in sterile couples, as even a blind eye is ordered to sight). The user of NFP, nevertheless, clearly does not intend the procreative end, in THIS act. Hw can he or she both virtually intend it, but actually not want it to happen? Well if the end is more than physical conception, but is rather the procreation and education of children then one can still intend that end, even in this act, while hoping that it will not produce yet another child.<br />Still, poverty, e.g., or even risk to the mother's life from pregnancy does not REQUIRE the use of NFP. What we are really saying is that, for the sake of the other ends of sex (satiating libido for one!), one may hope not to produce another child, as long as that affection, and hence the use of NFP, proceed for the sake of the higher ends of marriage, considered more completely outside of the marital act. Nevertheless, it remains morally licit to even intend children in poverty, or even at risk of health, since that it a natural and primary end of the act, and there can be no moral necessity to refer it to another end that is only lower or virtually contained in that end.<br />NB: My understanding is that if the act of sex itself is a proximate danger to life, then it is immoral to have sex. If it is a remote danger, e.g. wife has AIDS, the endangered person, the husband, is not obliged, but may do so for just cause, either for himself or his wife's sake.. Not sure how a risk of a risky pregnancy fits in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8236" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T13:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, yes, yes I do...since it would not be "solely" for that end. He is basically arguing the other ends can be virtually present.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Klein thought that alchemy and magic were twins at birth but one was stillborn. I dont agree. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">fair enough, John, I don't believe in either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8239" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Harry Potter and nfp.......clearly just to keep the thread alive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8240" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T13:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger, is there a more reputable exorcist than Amorth condemning HP?<br />I say this because Amorth is notoriously full of it. If all the stories he says are true, he acts against the Church's discipline on exorcism habitually....he also must be exorcising multiple people at once all the time....there are a lot of issues with his credibility.<br />That said, I detest HP. I read part of the first book and tossed it out...it was evil. Not morally evil, but literary evil...tripe...but I am a snob like that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Pater Edmund's analogy between equivocation and NFP fails because the relationship of speech to truth telling isn't the same as the sex's to reproduction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Every act of speech should be truthful, not every act of sex needs to be procreative</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8243" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-08-30T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-08-30T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not every act of sex even could be procreative, as every act of speech could--and should-- be truthful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8244" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T13:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">all analogies are lame... let's come up with a more substantive objection</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">me too, Joshua but I was roped into the debate. And i have first hand testimony i think though exorcists speak with caution and dont reveal they are such. That said i am convinced of the testimony. [To clarify: i dont know whether he was present at the incidents. But other matters he did testify to convinced me too.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To JA, I never said it was a parable for Bacon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marriage and sex as a whole need to be ordered to procreation (taken as generating *and* educating children), but to say that every act of sex needs to be ordered to procreation leads to some absurd conclusions and ignores all the other goods of sex.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8248" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda surreal to have parallel discussions of NFP and Harry Potter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and 0 likes and that mb failed to follow my distinction and the paucity of response and the number of questions unanswered. Tis strange that an overpopular and well grounded opinion is so strongly held, so weakly defended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[bunch of comments disappeared]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/shgQ3-OGmu4<br />Kick in the Head - New Riders of the Purple Sage<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, just found that apropos..."I went to the college of evil, but the smoke really drove me away. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, not sure what you're referring to. But Sat. is my laundry folding day. Been in and out (from being next to a computer)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Breaking out the morning coffee at 1423 EST</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">as in, I'm not sure what distinction you wanted me to follow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">magic is in the real world; mutants are not. Kids do live out theis HP fantasies. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't believe in magic. <br />If you mean in demons? that's different</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8258" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even if magic isn't actually effective, though, there are still various Satanical groups that claim to practice "magic," and that's not harmless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mutants do:<br />http://www.history.com/shows/stan-lees-superhumans<br />Stan Lee's Superhumans - Episodes, Video & Schedule - HISTORY.com<br />Save<br />HISTORY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm not sure how different that is from the argument "People shouldn't read stories about war because they might try to live out their war-fantasies in real life"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">changed "hero" to "war"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I believe in magic alright<br />http://youtu.be/mDYNuD4CwlI<br />Ok, I probably going to hell....<br />Do You Believe In Magic - The Lovin' Spoonful<br />Do you believe in magic in a ayoung girl's heart How the...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8263" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kids shouldn't read stories that anthropomorphize animals because they'll try to talk to badgers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">by magic, i mean what God allows the demons to do to seduce practitioners of any variety of occult art often denied as such activity by the practitioner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-08-30T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-08-30T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Pater Edmund's choice of comparing lying to artificial birth control is unfortunate because it can have the opposite effect of what he intends because common experience of life teaches us that lying, i.e. saying what we know is not true, is virtually intrinsic to our nature as political animals, and thus in turn his comparison can be seen as a defense of artificial birth control.<br />http://catholiccultureandsociety.blogspot.com/.../proof...<br />Catholic Culture and Society: The proof of Catholic social theory is : Does it work at a...<br />This blog is about : Organic Catholicism. . . . . Organic Catholicism is at human scale. It's eminently practical, and simple. . . . . It's back to nature, as in back to our nature. It looks at the world around us according to our nature, which in turn is to look at the world simply . . . . . . . .…<br />CATHOLICCULTUREANDSOCIETY.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8266" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that's a widespread problem, John. I think it takes a special sort of megalomania to want to "have power over things"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but Edward war is not intrisically evil. Nor is every war novel good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">megalomania is pretty common today. Narcissism moreso "cough" FB</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8269" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was the point: it's not sufficient to argue that they did X because they read about it in a book.<br />Just as it's silly to say that "X went on a shooting spree because he read a violent book" so it could be silly to say that "X got involved in satanism because he read HP": sure those statements could point out a kind of causality, but only in the way getting in a car is a cause of dying in a car crash.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8270" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that being said, we don't have first person shooter video games in my house.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but by power over nature, I mean what is the practical aim of modern science. This is commonly held. Not so much megalomania.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is not the same as individual instantaneous power over nature, like wave a magic wand and my room is clean. Flying on a broom is different from flying on a plane.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-08-30T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-08-30T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there really evidence of possession only from reading Harry potter? Because that seems a very susceptible person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">impossible Katie. Doesn't there have to be willful assent from a Baptized person?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8275" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, broom flying is more economical...you can get a wisk broom for like $10...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">true, Edward. But a child that spends his days watching war movier and dreaming about such, does it not influence his later decisions? Not always of course. But who would deny this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8277" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How 'bout Mary Poppins? is she eeevil?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8278" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Berquist used to say that Superman's flying is unnatural, because the whole man is moved but not part by part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8279" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, but only because musicals are</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well the books were before the movie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Musicals exist outside of time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Poppins<br />Mary Poppins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Mary Poppins is the lead character in a series of eight...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG<br />August 30 at 2:52pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Jehoshaphat Escalante also, Superman's motion was violent in relation to gravity and levity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(we have the books)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8284" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Superman moves by pure act of will</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">like a baseball that never falls. Ergo, demonic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean come on, ERGO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why doesn't Superman recline on his back and read, while flying?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am sorry, I am not taking this very seriously.<br />In all seriousness now. TAC is next door to the occult capital of the USA. Most of it is just silly, but I knew of some really dark stuff...animal sacrifices, orgies, etc.<br />We even had a witch steal a host from the TLM in Ventura for use in a black mass ... James Layne tried chasing her down. That is why, even if black Masses were a myth of literature in the 19th century, I know dang well they happen in reality now. So there you have it, fiction inspiring reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8289" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ojai delenda est</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahhaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8291" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree mb there is a difference though i think the underlying desire (in some only) is the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8292" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"occult capital of the USA" !</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8293" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Superman's motion was not unnatural. I always assumed it was gas powered by his super-flatulence...that explains how he could even propel in space</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8294" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Silent but deadly of course</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Superman is probably evil, if only because it seems to be an attempt to make Nietzscheism acceptable to children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">its nothing to with Nietzsche</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm...I returned from attending to some duties intending to talk about NFP. It appears the conversation, has, er, moved on? (I will not say, up.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . but then again, I haven't really seen any Superman stuff, I find an invulnerable person that needs Deus ex Machina countermeasures to be boring</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the name is via Zangwill's totally superficial appropriation of the term</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Superman is plenty silly, but dont blame Fritz for it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">up, up and away it has moved!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8302" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wendy Irene, the topic doesn't' move, everything returns eventually here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8303" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">for instance, does Superman use NFP?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no fore or after in TNET, all things have been, are and will be...so post about NFP if you will</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8305" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe those tights just reduce his motility so he has no need of NFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/the-happy-valley<br />The Ojai Valley<br />Is it possible there's a place where everyone is content?Where all is right with the world?You be...<br />TRAVELANDLEISURE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8307" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hold on, since Superman is an alien, not actually human, is Lois Lane engaging in that worst of unnatural sins?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T14:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, reproductive cells are sensitive to temperature...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, there's a topic for a medieval disputation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8310" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW, the original Superman comics did not have him flying...he was just able to jump real high, hence the whole "leap over buildings in a single bound" thing....it was only the later Superman that suddenly could fly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh noes, my geeky side I showing itself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St Joseph of Cupertino supposedly flew all over</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose the comparison would involve considering whether or not the generation of hybrids like mules would be against nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no tights though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8315" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Mr. Escalante, can a man wear tights as a way of regulating the number of children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8316" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so lugging the Latin Liguori (I love alliteration) wasn't geeky enough?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8317" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">in principle yes, Joshua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Franklin--I wonder what you mean when you say that lying is "virtually intrinsic to our nature as political animals." No matter how common it is to lie, it remains unnatural to do so. It is likewise unnatural to use artificial birth control even if it is commonly used.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh you're asking whether its licit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think so, for wearing tights is analogous to barrier....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if it doesnt interfere with the act, why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I assume you take them off and/or have an opening for the act....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is treading into dangerous territory here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would depend on intention. Why are you wearing tights?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8326" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, Superman (minus all the disgusting deviancy in the movies) can be useful for explaining two of the properties of the resurrected body; impassibility and agility. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8327" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and glorious tights</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and underwear OUTSIDE of tights</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cape would be glory too I guess</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">extra glory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">glory upon glory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8332" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwr-7nkTuX4<br />men in tights<br />my daughter laughs at this clip, its her favourite film<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">glorious gloriful glory?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8334" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just had three bottles of wine show up at my door unexpectedly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">didn't have it in me to send them away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe the underwear on the outside is what regulates the temperature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to hear more about "occult capitol of the USA"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, what I was going to say relating to NFP: first, note that ecological breastfeeding is not 100% effective as birth regulation, but should not be simply dismissed. Women who practice ecological breastfeeding average 14.6 months of suppression of the hormonal cycle. Note also that ecological breastfeeding is NOT simply exclusive breastfeeding, but includes the "seven standards".<br />1)Exclusive breastfeeding (no other liquid or solid from any other source enters the infant's mouth) for the first six months of life.<br />2)Comfort your baby at the breast.<br />3)Don't use bottles and pacifiers.<br />4)Share sleep with your baby for night feedings.<br />5)Share sleep with your baby for daily nap feedings.<br />6)Nurse frequently day and night and avoid schedules.<br />7)Avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates you from your baby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8339" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">8)wear corduroy jumpers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8340" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Be quiet, Jason, I'm talking. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8341" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha yes ma'am</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8342" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That said, not all women have the same suppression of fertility. (Like many of my relations.) But that doesn't mean that we automatically have to presume the need for NFP for anyone who doesn't have the more average spacing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8343" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, google "Ojai" it is a self-applied label</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">really? I think this is something Ghost Hunter guy came up with to boost book sales</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Richard Senate, Ghost Hunter"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC : Ojai area :: the Promised Land : surrounding countries</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and that in two ways)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is Hogworts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does your bride think of that, Edward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8350" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">a few hippies with spirit catcher macrames do not an occult capitol make</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wendy Irene, I think Bernadette has learned to ignore my comments about CA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Very wise. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I told my kids that TAC was Hogwarts, but with a more outdated doctrine of physics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8354" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perfection on that level is dull, though, and Ojai (pronounced "oh-high," by the way) delivers on the quirky front, too. The Ojai Valley, you see, has long drawn people yearning to go deep. "The magnetic center of the earth is here," the Los Angeles Times wrote in 1878. "Spirit-minded people come to reach the God centers in themselves." A partial list of the groups that have called it home: Church of Tzaddi, Life Divine Center, Sufi Order, Vortex Institute, Science of the Mind, Siddha Yoga Dham, ECKANKAR, Church Universal and Triumphant, Sathya Sai Baba. On top of that, you have a layer of hippies and artists; ceramist Beatrice Wood—often called the Mama of Dada—lived in Ojai, where she was a follower of resident Jiddu Krishnamurti, thought by some to be the next messiah. Krishnamurti, with Aldous Huxley and others, founded the Happy Valley School here in 1946 (it's one of at least 20 private schools in the area). Then there's a thin layer of celebrity frosting. Anthony Hopkins, Bill Paxton, Ellen DeGeneres and Anne Heche all have houses here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the Hipster-physics, JA. When Aristotelianism is in, we'll be able to go around telling people that we were Aristotelians before Aristotle was a thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8356" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that species of Aristotelianism might not ever be back in; recourse to angels as the motive force behind baseballs is done for I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ojai is a nexus of Wicca, and that sometimes leads to darker practices... in all seriousness my maternal uncle was a warlock in Ojai, did some dark stuff... he renounced it as the last act he did before dying. Was in a coma, woke up, renounced it, and then went back into the coma and died. It was a very surreal experience</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, it probably is true in some way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">define "some"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8360" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"><<<5)Share sleep with your baby for daily nap feedings.<br />6)Nurse frequently day and night and avoid schedules.<br />7)Avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates you from your baby.>>>These three in particular are hilariously impractical for mothers of more than one child</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe what newton means by inertia is really angels being kept busy ?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8362" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahaha sleep when my baby sleeps hahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Orgies, animal sacrifices, and some details I do not wish to discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8364" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">gentlemen we need to step back at this point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8365" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T15:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and allow this matriarchomachy plenty of room</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah the dryer is probably done.... no rest for the wicked....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was done anyways....leaving for a wedding very soon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's starting to sound like the reports of Ms. Zedlick's class on that part of the Politics where Aristotle talks about women. (which, incidentally, was the only class that semester I missed accidentally)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I know what you mean, Samantha. I have four! But just because it doesn't work for some people doesn't mean we should disregard it for everybody. And in fact, for some the nap is not necessary for suppression of fertility. (I don't regularly nap with my children, but my children are about 2 years apart, just because I largely ecologically breastfeed -- and because I got the genes from my mom's side and not my dad's side -- many of my aunts and cousins have far less suppression of fertility from breastfeeding.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, it works for some people, I'll happily grant that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If those practicing ecological breastfeeding average 14.6 months of suppression of the hormonal cycle, then children would be naturally spaced 23.6 months apart--roughly two years. Looks like nature has a pretty good system in place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's average. As I said, some people don't have that long of spacing (and some have more!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Got it. But it establishes a kind of norm whereby nature spaces children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8374" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it's The Occult Capitol, but Ojai is a pretty legit doorway to the spirit world.<br />Morgan I Branch: thoughts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8375" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since whatever happens always or for the most part cannot be by chance, it is correct to say that breastfeeding is nature's way to space children. Exceptions do not undermine that principle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8376" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me say that I think there are many good potential reasons for NFP, and that certainty that, for example, another pregnancy would be way too exhausting for the mother can be one such reason. I also think that the decision belongs to the couple, precisely because it's a prudential decision, and prudential decisions are about particulars, and so the people who best know the particulars are the ones who makes the decision. It's like the decision to go to war: the decisions belongs to the president, because he's the one who best knows the particulars.<br />BUT some confuse "having the responsibility for the decision" with "not being able to get the decision wrong". The president is the only one to whom the decision to go to war belongs: but he can make a mistake, and it's the duty of others to think about what sort of things make war justified AND whether in a particular case those conditions prevail, so that they can help the president make the decision.<br />There is a school of thought about NFP that the couple makes the decision and no one can have any opinion about whether certain kinds of reasons for that decision are valid. This doesn't square with what we've heard from the Church (which speaks of "grave", "just", "serious" reasons needed for NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed on NFP. It is the couple's decision, but they can err. (On the analogy to war, for the American regime it is Congress that is supposed to make the declaration . . . perhaps a foolish constitutional principle given your correct account of prudence.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Sure anyone can err. But it's not our place to pass judgment on anyone else's motives. And it's pretty darn hard to come up with a universal list of acceptable reasons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8379" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Be careful not to pass judgment on people you think may be passing judgment on anyone else's motives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8380" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hi, Bekah! <br />But, passing judgment on an individual's motives is not the same thing as saying "X kind of motive is (or isn't) a valid reason for NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly, especially since the Church has done exactly that, and done so for our own good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, when has the Church done that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What motives have been called out as invalid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8384" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as saying murder is wrong is not the same as saying that some individual person committed a mortal sin when they killed someone. Perhaps they had invincible ignorance on the subject. I don't judge their soul, but I do judge that the act of murder is in itself evil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, right here, I was making an argument for it being OK to even start talking about valid or invalid motives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8386" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:45:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do need to be careful that in avoiding "judging" we don't avoid developing prudence! "NFP should be used for serious reasons." "What are serious reasons" "Whatever you think they are, of course after considered thought" "But how can I have considered thought if no one will discuss it for fear of judging motives?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grave, just and serious reasons, as Wendy cited above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8388" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, what are grave just and serious reasons? That's pretty non-specific</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8389" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T15:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right: but does it need to be all three (grave, just, and serious) too, like my need to save up for a water jet pack before we conceive our next child?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8390" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd agree, Samantha, that that's not a specific list of motives! But it does give us some parameters (rather as just war theory does).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess, except without anything more specific it's hard to know what a "just" reason might be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8392" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T15:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The wonderful thing about it is that it is a rough and ready rule with built in parameters.<br />Most people won't abstain for the sake of a water jet pack.<br />Most people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's what we're supposed to figure out, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8394" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd say that justice, gravity and seriousness are all about proportion. You need a proportionate reason to practice NFP. Proportionate to what? To the suspension of the ordinary practice of a vocation to which you've vowed your whole self.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8395" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard lots of people talk about their (to me seemingly) not so grave reasons and they often end up with child anyhow.<br />And none of them have water jet packs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes...and while I think it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-30T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-30T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just or grave are very different things...I don't think one can avoid children for merely a "just cause" I think it must be grave. Spacing, perhaps, requires less justification.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wendy-- i liked your last because I think it's very well put, not because I'm sure I agree with it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"justis causis" is one of the phrases used, as I remember. But since it's proportional, in this case (where we're talking about major matter, the suspension the ordinary practice of a vowed vocation) a "just" reason will also be a "grave" reason. My child's jumping on the table during dinner is a "just" reason for sending him to his room, but not a "just" reason for my chopping his head off. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, looks like we both have over-active enter buttons. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yep</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, might another way of putting it be that a just reason would need to be proportionate to the sacrifice involved in periodic abstinence? Or do you mean something else?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews But that's the thing. If I think it's irresponsible to have a child while living on state aid, or without health insurance....ok fine. I will avoid pregnancy. But I can't say anyone else is wrong for getting pregnant while using food stamps. That's their conscience. Everyone likes to throw out vacations or toys as poor reasons to avoid, but let's be honest here, that's not the motivations for those using nfp. Seriously, if it was about material possessions they're not going to use nfp. Those Catholics who use nfp are doing so as part of their path to sanctity. And I don't see how anyone can come up with a universal list of right and wrong reasons. Because what is just to my family isn't necessarily just to the next.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Just cause is good enough for the Vatican.....so it's good enough for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what does that mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does the word "just" mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews What is owed. What I owe my husband and what I owe my children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that, on balance, it means what most people willing to abstain rather than have sex think and say it means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews And that's where God will guide families if different ways. So will be called to homeschool, some will be called to have children closely spaces, it's going to vary. And that is unique to each family.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8410" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Article. II.<br />Section. 1.<br />The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows<br />Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.<br />The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President.<br />The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.<br />No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.<br />In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.<br />The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be encreased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.<br />Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bekah, how about if I say that what is owed one's husband is that you engage in the ordinary practice of marriage -- which is uniting in the marital embrace when the couple feels the attractive for it..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's OK to suspend that ordinary practice when grave reasons intervene (such as being in a public place, for instance.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8413" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about what the husband owes the wife?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8414" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">mutatis mutandis </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Exactly Matthew. I really think it's ok for even academics to admit there isn't a universal answer here. The Church has been very careful to not make a list here. Not to make our lives harder but because there aren't universals when it comes to what is just to a unique family.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8416" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Right John Kunz. I was answering for myself, but absolutely the husband must be willing to die to self for the good of his wife and children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8417" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mutadis mutandis my footnis. It's a fair distinction... I don't think NFp is always looked at from both the view of responsibility AND love... And it goes both ways... Not just forcing the dude to hold off...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8418" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bekah, I don't see how what you say actually contradicts what I tried to say above. I agree that couples will have varying circumstances (in a similar way that different Presidents have different circumstances where they have to decide whether to go to war.) But that's not the same as saying, "anything the couple really wants to abstain for is OK." That wasn't what the Church said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8419" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/CQx1kbmow_g<br />X-Jetpacks<br />X-Jetpacks Water power jetpacks, bolt on kits for jet skis<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There there, Matt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews The thing is Wendy Irene, I think I owe my husband more than just sex when we feel like it. I owe him a healthy wife. A happy home and most importantly, children raised well, educated well and safe and secure in their families foundation. So what is just to my husband is what is just to my children, since that is the end of marriage. And often, what is just is to say no to self and yes to the good of the family.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8422" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">AMAZING:<br />http://youtu.be/LHL16av4C9k<br />♠ Flyboard ♠ HD<br />Man can walk on water. Flyboard.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">does any one else feel the need to throw in a Metallica™ song?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8424" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was hoping for blue oyster cult.. I was feeling the need for cowbell</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8425" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The reason circumstances are important, morally speaking, is not because they make the act not fall under a universal but because they make the act fall under a different universal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews anything the couple really wants to abstain for is OK<br />***********************************************************<br />I see this a lot in NFP discussions, the hypothetical couple who's abstaining for a jetpack. Well not hypothetical anymore <br />Anyway, NFP is self correcting that way. If it's a greater good than coming together as spouses, they'll continue to abstian. Otherwise, the perceived good will fade and things will rightly correct themselves. And, I think we'd all be hard pressed to find the couple who is using NFP, a self denial in and of itself, for selfish reasons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8427" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">aren't circumstances always important morally speaking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For example having marital relations with your wife is just having marital relations. Having marital relations with someone else is adultery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">New circumstance = new species</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">= new universal moral norm applies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8431" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guiding non-Catholcs to discussions about NFP is a handy and effective way to keep the Church small.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(in the example the circumstance is "married to" or something)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8433" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, one more - but you HAVE to watch this:<br />http://youtu.be/zsrciLXhqRo<br />Jetlev-Flyer 2014 Official Video<br />Jetlev-Flyer.com Germany is proud to present the most powerful out of carbon fibre made JF-260 ever. The lifting...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews But I can't Peterson....link broken,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THATS COOL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, I used to think Pope Bonbon was obsessed, but you're giving him a run for the money</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NFP FTW!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going to push this, Bekah, not because I think you hold the following position, but because I'm wondering how, in what manner, you'd draw the line. Why would you tell a couple that they can't use NFP so they can save for a jetpack? You can't see into their hearts...perhaps it would satisfy some deep longing, and make them (say, the man, Matthew J. Peterson ) really happy, and so a better father. How do you make the argument that they shouldn't use NFP for that reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4ZGKI8vpcg<br />Fonzie Jumps the Shark on Happy Days (Episode 5.3) 1977<br />Ever hear someone say that a tv show "jumped the...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8440" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">water jetpack = your argument is invalid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">@bekah http://youtu.be/9dghbyBaQyI<br />Rubber sharks can't beat Batman!<br />Rubber sharks can't beat Batman!<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I can't. I wouldn't. That's the couple and God and their spiritual adviser to determine. It would have to do with their motivations and I don't know those. That's why I think the whole concept of trying to pin down who can use NFP and when isn't healthy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews BAT SHARK REPELLENT!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8444" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That view totally undermines moral philosophy and moral theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is nothing that makes me feeler closer to Christ that being lectured about the merits of various reasons for abstention. "Blessed art those who have carefully vetted their excuses for not getting busy" should have been one of the beatitudes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8446" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, I think you're confounding two things: the kind, the sort, of reasons which make it OK to do something, and the motivations of some individual person and the guilt they incur or do not incur thereby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The more speculative lectures are generally either for those who already have determined to abide by the Church's teachings or for preachers/confessors to take into account when thy use rhetoric to convert people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews No it doesn't. It's exactly what the Church says....or doesn't say in this case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8449" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it seems to me that you're confounding the judgment about a particular person with the universal judgment of an act in specified circumstances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The former instance is unjudgeable, because no one can no all the relevant circumstances</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8451" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews No I'm saying that a couple's decision to partake in a perfectly licit practice, as deemed by the Church, cannot be judged by those of us who don't know their motives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The latter is basically the subject of moral philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">SEE! Robin has underwear over tights!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's perfectly licit _with a grave reason_. It's our responsibility to understand what that means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you're adding the claim that since a particular couple can't be judged, we can't judge universally whether a certain kind of circumstance is sufficient to justify NFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyhow, like I was trying to say - THANK YOU, Wendy Irene! - I'm pretttty sure a water jet pack right now, today, would deeply satisfy the longings of my soul and make me a better person.<br />It's virtually self-evident:<br />http://youtu.be/zsrciLXhqRo<br />Jetlev-Flyer 2014 Official Video<br />Jetlev-Flyer.com Germany is proud to present the most powerful out of carbon fibre made JF-260 ever. The lifting...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I'm saying there is no universal here. There will always be particular circumstances and there will never be universal circumstances by which we can draw conclusions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8458" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sittin' around on a Saturday, learnin' about people's sex lives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm saying that that's not how circumstances work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Love & responsibility page 28: interact with others as they have their own ends, not a means to an end. <br />"Don't "beatitudenally get busy" just for your own kicks, and dont get knocked up all by itself and do so skipping that the other has their own ends also"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's always true, of every single moral act (including murder).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The addition of a circumstance can change the morality of the act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Yes, I am. Which is why the Church has never ever established a list of when NFP is ok and it is not ok.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's because it makes it fall under a different universal norm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Bekah Sims Andrews point or the part of it I like is that the rough and ready principle of the the thing: most people will only stop having sex for grave reasons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8466" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me play peacemaker (bwahahahahaha)<br />WIG and Ed are showing there is a general principle by which an action can be judged<br />Bekah is pointing out that there no way of judging the people themselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WIZ, Michael. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WIZ to you, Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8469" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You'll always be WIG to me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8470" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heh-heh. He said "rough and ready."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Absolutely. And each circumstance will be unique to the couple.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8472" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews And therefore we can't establish universals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8473" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, that's true of killing too, but murder still happens</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Or what Matthew and Mike said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . and that's where you go wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is amazing how much devout Catholics unintentionally share about their most intimate private lives while discussing NFP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8477" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I still think Ed and WIZ (whatever) are right. we need guidelines</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But props to wig for allowing the jet pack</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8479" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So for all the handwringing of young catholic interlectuals, most people at the end of the day aren't going to actually abstain unless they think shite just got real real, for hella reals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bekah, where have I said that I judge any individual couple?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I never said you did WIG. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the difficulty with guidelines the varying relativity of degree? Finances vs finances, stress vs stress, health vs health?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8483" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, that's BS. "well he shot him. must have had a good reason. let's acquit"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I, for one, don't assume anything about anyone's reasons. Y'all have fun now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. It's a very different and roughly self limiting circumstance, and the fact that it never comes up in these discussions is ludicrous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8486" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never comes up? I hear it all the time, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Matthew J. Peterson meant, the day ones losses their job, car breaks down AND someone gets sick... No nookie for a little while... That type of shite</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8488" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HOWEVER, the difference between NFP and murder is pretty different</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8489" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, I'm just trying to make a point here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8490" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most people do not give up available sex with someone they are attracted to unless they think they are in grave circumstances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I would love a universal list. It would be extremely helpful. But it can't exist practically speaking. So the guidelines would have to be tailored to each couple at there state in life then....which can totally change in a month...or a year. And so that's where a good spiritual adviser would be necessary. To assist the individual couple ascertain if they are being selfish, or just.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or have a headache</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most people don't give up available property that's there for the taking even if they are in grave circumstances</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">five-finger discount?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8495" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But are we really going to refuse to give any sort of public thought to the SORT OF THING that makes NFP OK? (note that I don't say, list every single possible situation and pass judgment on it)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I assumed since he stole the food, he must have been hungry</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8497" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Understanding NFP is pretty important though. I mean, how else can we signal to our peer group that we are the most orthodox family in the rosary group?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews No, I wouldn't say that Wendy Irene, but I just think the list would be so vague....it wouldn't be helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My family doesn't need to signal, the rosary group's judgment means nothing to us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8500" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You hear about it all the time, and I don't disagree with your point - people love to talk about this stuff and themselves - but at the end of the day what they actually do is far different. The idea that all these people are out there misusing NFP doesn't hold weight with me at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If people forgo sex for long periods of time, and go through all this trouble, it ain't for the sake of a water jet pack. And the more disciplined they are that way, the more (sadly) interested they are in water jet packs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so since it is unlikely, there isn't grave moral risk?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8503" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews Yes, I think this is escape for us Matthew, back to the good old days when we could discuss life's tough questions, for hours on end. And not be interrupted by a naked three year old who just walked in and announced "eww gigusting!" I don't want to know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, more than one good, balanced priest has expressed to me his concerns about misuse of NFP. And if anyone outside of the individual is qualified to know, I'd say a priest is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8505" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think as long as a list of circumstances was stipulated to be complete, the morality of every action could be determined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or world find themselves in ACTUAL NEED of the jet pack in their sad miserable lives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8507" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that seems right, Edward. That's why we can do any judging about morals at all. The reason we can't judge INDIVIDUALS is that we don't know all their circumstances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8508" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, the BVM weeps on her throne each time a devout, loving couple with five kids uses an inadequate excuse for abstaining from sex. I demand that a group of elderly Italian men immediately convene and draw up a list telling me when I can have sex!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8509" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a risk, but how many experienced priests in conservative parishes think it something that ranks talking about as much as orthodoxish circles yammer on and on about it. But, hey, we all like to talk about sex.<br />The only circles that care about NFP seem to be to be quite procreative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, if you think that's what anyone here has been saying...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could be wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^you can type that again^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8513" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T16:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there were no universals regarding NFP, then there would be no guidelines by which a spiritual director could guide a couple seeking his advice. So, if you recognize the need for spiritual direction in NFP, then you implicitly recognize the existence of universals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8514" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T16:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Death penalty could be interesting when everyone tires of talking about when it's ok to take a roll in the hay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8515" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, doesn't the "safety valve" argument of itself imply that NFP can be used for non-grave reasons? The argument is, "If it's not a grave reason, you'll stop abstaining." <br />It seems to me a problem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">death penalty is immoral</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Wendy Irene" data-date="2014-08-30T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Wendy Irene at 2014-08-30T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Company's arrived, so I will bid y'all farewell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T16:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NFP seems to be a slippery slope that leads to the disolution of the family when each rides around on their own separate water jet pack (or broomstick) </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-30T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-30T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I'm not saying there aren't universals, just that they are as hopeless vague as not selfishly. For just reasons. And we can't get much more particular than that. Because circumstances then come into play.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8520" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T16:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wendy Irene, your comments have been brilliant in this discussion. Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not a perfect rule, and of course there are guidelines, but for the love of lust alone most people do not give up available sex except for grave reasons - that they will be thinking about and that will be tested over time, in this case. So prudence has a little help here from nature.<br />Checks and balances, kids, checks and balances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The safety valve argument is not an argument - it's just a recognition that non-grave reasons will often be weeded out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8523" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T16:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Death penalty is immoral really does = MODERNISM <br />But I don't think that what is modern is inherently evil, so...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8524" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arguing about NFP is one of the most thoroughly modern aspects of contemporary Catholic thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8525" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Owen White" data-date="2014-08-30T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen White at 2014-08-30T16:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">After reading all 8724 comments, I'm inclined to think that TAC exists in order that people who otherwise stand very little chance of getting laid are able to find mating companions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8526" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Owen you're joking, but as an outside observer, I would argue that TAC is actually an elaborate speed dating service for orthodox Catholics with less than stellar SAT scores.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My SAT scores were 98 percentile, as were my GRE scores, thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my GRE sat and act were 98th or above</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should have added the "or above"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8530" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but that's just a shot across the bow. no need to get uppity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a 5 on the calculus BC exam in highschool</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">98th%ile is between 2140-2190. That won't guarantee you anything at top schools.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had 2220 on the GRE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is it's not "less than stellar"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND, you read all that Aristotle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why intelligent people pick TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and your point is...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T16:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sheesh, even I haven't read all 8728 comments</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC grads spend a ton of time talking about how smart they are. Which is why this thread has almost 10,000 comments. I just enjoy tweaking you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8540" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">like I said, a shot across the bow. I don't take it personally. but I don't think anyone is "talking about how smart they are"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8541" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">more like TAC grads spend a lot of time talking....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sometimes the substance shows how smart they are</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Michael Beitia: my GRE sat and act were 98th or above"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8544" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was a reaction to your prodding... but a couple of comments out of 9000 don't mean a whole lot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">May I refer you to the post that sits at the top of this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">aaah the tongue in cheek one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8547" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron can be the new troll!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8548" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think he has the crazy of Pope Bonbon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8549" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any poems to read to us?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8550" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's disappointing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i thought the initial post highlighted the strength of the program. Not the quality of raw material.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It takes a special sort of crazy. Maybe if he made a profile "Falcon Boethius" and used the same picture..... well then maybe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8553" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T17:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For a dating service, TAC sure make you do a lot of unrelated reading. It's almost as if dating wasn't their primary focus. Guess they should have gone with the Match.com model.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8554" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:04:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">God forbid I say one good thing about my alma mater reading lots of two long dead authors.<br />Owen White: I submit to you that any FB post with this many comments is full of....unique individuals.<br />But given that a lot of people on the thread are religious and married, and you want to talk about sex, I would refer you to every major recent study which shows practicing religious married couples have more and better than pretty much everyone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8555" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T17:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm no troll! I just made a jokey comment and the next thing I knew people were pulling their SAT scores out of mothballs!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Owen White: but yes, sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you assailed their scores and thereby their intelligence, albeit in a jokey way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8558" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-30T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-30T17:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do not joke on this thread. We are all super serial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no just Ed and I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8560" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously Aaron, it's cool. I type faster than I realize jokes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8561" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once knew a man from Nantucket...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8562" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T17:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">falcon yes. But isn't Boethius a bit unmagisterial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8563" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see what you did there.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8564" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Owen White" data-date="2014-08-30T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen White at 2014-08-30T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If these numbers are accurate I would think Gigliotti's assertion rather uncontroversial: http://collegeapps.about.com/.../thomas-aquinas-college.htm<br />Thomas Aquinas College - SAT Scores, Costs and Admissions Data<br />Thomas Aquinas College's average SAT scores, ACT...<br />COLLEGEAPPS.ABOUT.COM|BY BY ALLEN GROVE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was grasping at Roman-sounding names. "Kestrel Athenasius"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8566" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I didn't defend my intelligence even though I got a perfect score on everything ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The averages are just facts - not controversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8568" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">on the other hand...... you can't conclude anything about anyone from averages</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8569" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But why anyone would give much credit to the present day system in the first place is beyond me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The average american male is 5'11" therefore, how tall am I?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8571" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The standard deviation for Reading scores at TAC is better than UC Berkeley </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why anyone would want to single tiny TAC out for arrogance and dorkiness is also beyond me. Plenty of larger fish in the sea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the average life expectancy is 81 years. when will I die?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8574" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T17:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Above, please replace "less-than stellar SAT scores" with "on average, very unimpressive SAT scores."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">much better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. It's top of the bottom half of the first 100 national liberal arts schools stuff. Not terrible, but not super impressive. If those scores impress you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">except an SAT score of 1800 puts one in the 83rd percentile, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I guess everyone who takes the SAT doesn't go to college</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8579" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC also, from what I've heard, has a policy of admiting a wide spectrum of SAT scores to prevent students from moving too quickly through difficult readings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8580" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:16:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">[swallows nasty comment about homeschoolers]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which, combined with need-based rather than merit-based scholarships explains the lower SAT scores.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8582" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pace my friends who drive Audis or went to USC, but the most annoying grads to me are the ones on the freeway in a shiny A6 with a USC logo trying to pull in front of me after getting stuck behind a truck that the rest of us saw five minutes ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8583" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am the best!!!<br />TAC is the best!!! <br />USA! USA! USA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8584" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Owen White" data-date="2014-08-30T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen White at 2014-08-30T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look, no one here is saying that reading the right books doesn't make up for being not quite Point Loma Nazarene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Owen White" data-date="2014-08-30T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen White at 2014-08-30T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://collegeapps.about.com/.../top-california-sat...<br />Compare SAT Scores for Admission to California Colleges and Universities<br />Learn what SAT scores are needed to get into...<br />COLLEGEAPPS.ABOUT.COM|BY BY ALLEN GROVE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8586" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T17:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the third time in the history of this thread, my daughter came in the room and asked me why I was laughing so hard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8587" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's the best, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8588" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I'm saying is we read a lot of those two authors - more than most or anyone - and that's cool in my book.<br />We may only be ranked in the 60s for national liberal arts colleges. We may not understand a word we read but think we do. But I think it's cool we read 'em.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8589" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T17:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Owen, that chart tells me that TAC is for kids who would have had a chance at some top schools if they had been able to pull up their math scores about 60 or 80 points. In short its a safety for smart kids who struggled in math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8590" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, that's silly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8591" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, I don't think many strategize that way, although score wise it's true: you gotta be a freak if you want to go to TAC - either you're parents forced you or you are drawn to the education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8592" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For under graduate degrees it is virtually irrelevant where you go to school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I only applied to TAC: the thought of applying somewhere else was never serious for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone has a Bachelors of some sort. You can say, "hey I got a BA at Harvard in English" and you still get paid 40,000/year as a casualty adjuster at Mercury Insurance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8595" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(And three of my uncles teach at Franciscan)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^weird.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8597" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Owen White" data-date="2014-08-30T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen White at 2014-08-30T17:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"And why anyone would want to single tiny TAC out for arrogance and dorkiness is also beyond me." Well, clearly, so long as the St. John's Colleges exist. Johnnies are the apotheosis of arrogant dorks, and a shame to all great bookers everywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Harvard grads aren't known for meekness either</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8599" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-08-30T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-30T17:24:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, now I am trolling, and I better stop because my kids will probably go to TAC, and when they see this thread hanging on a wall in the Smithsonian, they might ask me about my role in it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8600" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think young people are arrogant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8601" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Almost all of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is the way things are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8603" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not arrogant, I'm right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Young people with good/decent educations come off as more arrogant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8605" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_8606" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, no. For undergraduate degrees it is exceedingly important where you got to college, which is why parents shell out 60k a year to send their kids to the highly regarded ones.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Owen White - granted, within great books circles TACers are more than fair game.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8609" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought that was because of the football team?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got to be 2nd string quarterback at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many great books schools are there? TAC, SJC, Magdelen, Thomas More (and I'm not really sure about the latter two), WCC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never could've lived the dream at one of those big schools.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><sigh></p>
</li>
<li id="post_8614" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you went to Claremont Mckenna, you would have had small classes, intense attention paid to your individual needs and interests, and employers like Google and Goldman Sachs would come on campus looking for you. And you would be ready for them despite your liberal arts ish background because the college would make sure you were.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">compared to UT, Texas A&M and Notre Dame, at least the cult of TAC generally centers on it's intellectual prowess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The employers are mostly interested in MA's or above, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Engineering, I'd think Stanford, Caltech or MIT would stand out as undergraduate degrees.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8618" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. At CMC the vast majority of graduates enter the workforce directly. And at the highest of levels.<br />I know it hurts to hear this, but you are believing lies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But anywhere else is just as good as anywhere else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shimer College (Adler's school) is great books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8621" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So now you see why I take comfort in what we did get, which is lots of Aristotle and Aquinas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I entered the workforce directly out of high-school</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, that may be true. But I think that would be an exception for most degree fields.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8624" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">As it stands, I have no desire to defend the worldly effectiveness of any of my degrees.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8625" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha! Tell that to all the Princeton kids walking straight from graduation to their cushy wall street jobs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's good, Daniel Lendman, because it'd be a difficult sell </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have pursued the least efficient, likely most expensive, and longest lasting track to achieve my educational goals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, that is not because of their degrees, but because of their fathers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The sense I have from recent news articles, Samantha, is that attending an Ivy League college generally means crushing debt for the next ten or twenty years</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^and thats a fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8631" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, not at all. It is based on rank and prestige. Most TAC grads have no idea how it works.<br />The top schools get you the best jobs. Outside of them, you are outside looking in.<br />It is ONLY because of their degrees. The top tier national liberal arts colleges place their graduates at the top elite positions in the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Although graduates of Franciscan end up as married couples with a combined debt of aout $100,000 and degrees in theology, so it's not just an Ivy League thing)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I watched them do it! Then I watched them come back for reunions with their billions and billions of dollars</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8634" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys are way out of your element.<br />35-40% of Ivy League grads annually go into finance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8635" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. Its because of their degrees and the career office</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I'm liberally educated!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8637" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You live in a merito-oligarchy and don't even known it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8638" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">liberally educated = poor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh we know it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The degree means everything, and it comes with career offices and relationships of the highest caliber.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, since we have been hearing undocumented assertions, here is some text: <br />http://metro.co.uk/.../relax-students-employers-dont.../<br />Relax students… Employers don't care where you go to university any more<br />The job market has changed dramatically in recent years...<br />METRO.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.grb.uk.com/.../does-university.../2013/08/08/2514<br />Graduate News - Does University Ranking Even Matter in 2013?<br />University ranking certainly plays its part on decisions by...<br />GRB.UK.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8643" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do I get to be a hedge fund manager? Play with other peoples' money and skim off the top? oh yeah.... Yale</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8644" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Princeton kids don't come out with debt. Either their parents pay the whole shebang, or the University does</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8645" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T17:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bu can they discuss NFP at their galas, Samantha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8646" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't need articles. I live it and see it from a variety of angles.<br />The top schools function as a filtering system for the top positions in American life.<br />These kids have parents who know this and have striven for years to make sure their kids become players in this system. That's why they freak out over getting their kid accepted into the right preschool - you think they're just nuts? No, they know how this world works.<br />TAC is like the Shire in all this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8647" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, TNET is our great consolation. Also the Thomas and the Aristotle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.forbes.com/.../college-admission-officer...<br />Where You Go To College Doesn't Matter<br />It's what you do when you get there that counts.<br />FORBES.COM|BY JOIE JAGER-HYMAN</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8649" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not reading the article, I can tell from the title that it's BS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8650" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew,that sounds a lot like, "I don't need facts."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, these kids are all very smaht but also the perfect employees. They can set meetings at 14, etc.<br />Still, some TACers could do the same and we could much better on these fronts but we are so clueless it makes me sick to my stomach.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8652" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It might be true under the top tier, perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same for you Samantha Cohoe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Consolation of the TNET" - proposed new addition to the TAC curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm telling you, I've watched this happen with my mouth hanging open in shock at the injustice of it all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8656" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't that just the result of having a well-connected father?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../college-admissions_b...<br />Does It Matter Where You Go To College? Probably Not.<br />A designer degree doesn't matter nearly as much in the...<br />HUFFINGTONPOST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In most of those cases?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman: come to CMC and we'll go to the career office together?<br />Did you not hear me? Some businesses only interview at certain schools. There are hedge funds that only hire from one or two ivies. Look at the facts re where graduates from top tier schools go.<br />Do you think a TAC grad has a prayer at working for Google or Goldman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8660" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not anyone here's fault, but the fact this is even a convo is disheartening and sad to me. Again, it's no one's fault. But TAC isn't even in the game. Let's hope that's for the best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there's a difference, though, between entry-level positions and later positions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if I don't want to work at a hedge fund?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8663" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T17:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nice articles. Would you publish articles on how to become a member of little plutocracy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure if it's TAC completely or the liberal arts degree as a rule. I do think the degree you get is part of the job game too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once you get your foot in the door, most of a brilliant career is networking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T17:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(at least, that's the way it is in computers)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T17:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think as a rule employers don't see the liberal arts degree as anything "marketable." On the other hand, if you have a B.A in Computer Science or an MBA, that makes more of a difference. So it isn't solely the college you go to, it's also the degree you have.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8668" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go look up the facts on where cabinet members and presidents and senators often come from. Tiny handful of schools, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8669" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC, I acknowledge, does very little to help its graduates get jobs (though Mark Kretschmer has done a lot to improve that). But, in general, an undergrad doesn't matter very much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The people that are getting hired right of college are getting that because of their parents and connections. Not the degree,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8671" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^thats crazy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8672" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is not a rational discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because if it were the degree, then the people hiring would be very foolish, because they almost certainly could get someone just as good or almost for less money.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. That is fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Says the man who won't read studies?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And polls?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8678" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">At top tier national liberal arts colleges, like many of the Claremont Colleges, Google and Goldman don't hire people on account of their specialized degree. Nor do the hedge funds who hire from Williams.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And facts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fine. here.<br />http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/.../do-elite.../...<br />Do Elite Colleges Produce the Best-Paid Graduates?<br />Newly-released data from PayScale, a site that collects...<br />ECONOMIX.BLOGS.NYTIMES.COM|BY CATHERINE RAMPELL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8681" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I gave you some homework assignments - I suggest you do them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of the articles that I failed to link, I guess, was about Google and how it doesn't care about where students come from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8683" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T17:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This may be lost on some, but no matter ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I've read that article. Hilarious. More true of Google than Hedge funds, but at google for a long time if you weren't Stanford you were looked askance, as ran the stereotype.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8685" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T17:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(And no, that doesn't mean I agree with Daniel.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T17:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia's article seems to indicate that a student's choice of major does make a bit of difference on what type of salary you get. <br />"Majors matter. Quantitative-oriented degrees – like engineering, science, mathematics and economics — filled most of the top 20 slots in both highest starting median salaries and highest mid-career median salaries."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8687" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-30T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-30T17:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is going to put this into a word doc or sth. so I can read it at the beach like a penny novel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8688" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just start paying attention to where elite members of society's degrees come from. Look at career services and what info top ten national liberal arts colleges and national U.s give re where they place graduates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If my Father is "Daddy Warbucks" and he and all ancestors and all his friends and their ancestors went to CMC then, yep, that is why I am getting hired by one of his friends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-30T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(44, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-30T17:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or do I mean a penny dreadful?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Talk to any national leader in virtually any field of any kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Talk to any parent cognizant of how the top rung in any field of any mind in America works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8693" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, your argument is predicated upon the notion that the people that are in those schools, by and large, aren't already connected, and I don't by that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8694" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-30T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-30T17:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">By this I obviously mean the whole The Neverending Thread. (I love that you can tag it within itself.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8695" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Talk to anyone who has worked in Wall Street for more than 5 seconds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8696" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah, their fathers worked their too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and uncles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8698" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T17:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, based on these points and articles, it seems that the magic combination to Get a Good Job is nepotism, an Ivy League/top tier school, and a desirable degree. Am I summarizing the arguments appropriately?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8699" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and their white.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T17:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And believe, because it is comforting, that what very one tells you is merely nepotism and has nothing to do with top tier undergraduate degrees.<br />It's not your fault you don't know this stuff. There is no shame in that. But it is the way it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8701" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, if one wants to be a hedge-fund manager, then one's best chances are to be born to one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8702" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T17:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine: I think I'm going to try to put it in a word doc format and then pdf. But I can only do that when the thread ends and I don't think this thread will ever end... it seems to be eternal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one wants to be a professional (doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc.) then by and large undergrad does not matter, graduate school, more so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8704" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T17:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In America, anyone can be whatever he or she wants. Hey, even Daniel Lendman can become president</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T17:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^not true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(205, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have met "Ivy Leaguers" who get the cushy jobs, and I am even friends with some. They are smart, no doubt. They also got good educations. But they get hired because of their connections. That is just the way the world works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8707" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My chances for being president were slim to begin with. They diminish proportionately to the time I spend on this thread. I am doomed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least insofar as being president is concerned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, at least you're tall. I'm waaaaay below the Mendoza line</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will also grant that certain names have a kind of mystique about them, but for most professionals, at least according to the above posted reports and research, it matters little.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and hedge funds are eeeevil</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to boot!!!^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8713" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's generally the case in engineering related fields that a good graduate degree (MA) is more important than a good bachelors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-30T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-30T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan, you could do volumes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially since the first couple years of undergrad are generally taught by graduate students anyways, rather than by them famous professors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my profession, the choice of graduate school matters a little but it's more about the degree you have. Most libraries (unless they're trying to cut budgets) won't hire any professional librarians with any degree less than a Master's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Although it's also true in engineering fields that a Ph.D. is often bad for job prospects because it makes employers think you won't be happy with little boring tasks)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8718" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All that is true, but if you think it is not beneficial to go to Harvey Mudd or Stanford or MIT undergrad you're nuts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For grad school, of course!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8720" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine: what I need is a word/pdf file that automatically updates itself as new replies are added to the thread. That would be really amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I put Stanford and MIT aside above, mostly because their undergrad programs are generally as difficult as a masters degree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8722" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(57, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ARE YOU EFFING CRAZY?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, I think you're absolutely right about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8724" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A Stanford engineering degree is only good for GRAD SCHOOL?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, in Texas at least, the better schools (Texas A&M and UT) generally let you do the first two years at Podunk Community College and guarantee admisison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BS in engineering does not mean much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">An MIT ENGINEERING DEGREE is only good for GRAD SCHOOL?!?!?!!?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What engineering firm is going to hire you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your undergrad certainly helps with where you go to grad school. One has better connections.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8730" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and, my Aunt in Ohio told me that an Associates degree in Machining will pretty much guarantee a $90,000 job as a machinist: the supply / demand ratio right now is pretty lopsided in favor of the employee.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">read the article I linked above. It shows salaries for people who ONLY have an undergrad degree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8732" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, I was never once upset with The Peregrine in all his Dragon level trolling. But you have, for the very first time in all this thread, trolled me emotionally.<br />And for that you deserve an award.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A student at MIT at the top of the class in engineering will likely be able to get into the graduate level at MIT. Most of the others will have to go somewhere else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-30T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-30T18:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the majority of engineering undergrads at WSU find engineering jobs in Wichita while they're on campus, and a large portion of these roll directly on after graduation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liam Collins" data-date="2014-08-30T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liam Collins at 2014-08-30T18:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just sayin'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MS is the new BS. Fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8737" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one is saying that you can't get jobs otherwise, but this ruthless avoidance of the reality of top tier education and job placement in this country is mind blowing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8738" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">A bachelors (and nothing else) from MIT gets an average starting salary of over 70K, with a career median salary of over 120k. BACHELOR'S</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But since we are providing reasoned arguments and documentation, we don't really fit the troll label.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if Daniel would admit it, but I think there are one or two schools for each field that make a difference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, no denying that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8742" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">LOOK at the salaries for JUST a BA. Harvey Mudd does pretty freaking well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, for that kind of thing people will often go to Mudd over Ivies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No there are ten schools that make all the difference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.slate.com/.../tech_company_feeder_schools...<br />Googlers Are From Stanford, Applers Are From San Jose State<br />The next issue of Wired, on newsstands May 27, has an...<br />SLATE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../where-did-google-apple...<br />Where Did Google And Apple Employees Go To College?<br />More young people would want to work for Google than...<br />HUFFINGTONPOST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other problem with those statistics, though, is that the conclusion presupposes that the future will be like the past. And I think Daniel has been trying to argue that that just isn't true at this point in time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8748" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahahaa</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/04/30/get-rich-u<br />Get Rich U. - The New Yorker<br />Stanford University is so startlingly paradisial, so fragrant and sunny, it’s as if you could eat from the trees and live...<br />NEWYORKER.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. Google is fixated on Stanford. Check.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.independent.co.uk/.../the-billionaire-factory...<br />The billionaire factory: Why Stanford University produces so many celebrated...<br />INDEPENDENT.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-30T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-30T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Article III.<br />Section. 1.<br />The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.<br />Section. 2.<br />The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;—to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;—to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;—to Controversies between two or more States;— between a State and Citizens of another State,—between Citizens of different States,—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.<br />In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.<br />The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.<br />Section. 3.<br />Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.<br />The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In general, engineering schools produced the best starting salaries, and represented eight out of the top 10 schools in starting salary. On the other hand, Ivy League Schools are the best bet for mid-career pay, with five out of the top 10."<br />AND THIS IS BACHELORS ONLY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8754" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being a googler, though, isn't really a "get rich quick" scheme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8755" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, they pay well, but any number of tech firms pay equivalent salaries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and, while y'all are arguing, my dad (a TAC grad) got a job offer from Microsoft)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So that last article seems to support a version of my nepotism theory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My cousin, who graduated from Franciscan, is working at Amazon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8759" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So...... St. Louis cut Michael Sam..... <br />when's the lawsuit?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This entire article is based on the premise that it is shocking a student from Duke would even get an interview from Goldman:<br />http://www.businessinsider.com/college-students-recruited...<br />How A Duke Undergrad With No Finance Background Got Lured By Goldman Sachs<br />Highly indebted, with no clear career direction, Laura...<br />BUSINESSINSIDER.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, 90,000 in silicon valley is barely a living wage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Nepotism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8763" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a friend from Steubenville who went to Franciscan and is working for Microsoft.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8764" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's some Anecdata for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8765" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have never said that you can't get into these places by other means, but the willful refusal to acknowledge the practical benefits of a top tier school is just beyond the pale.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8766" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or off the fucking rails</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goldman Sachs and apparently Google are very foolish, because if they altered their hiring practices they could find equally educated and capable individuals who would likely work for less.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8768" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(6, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It is a lot easier to go inside the house through the front door"<br />"what do you mean!! I can climb on the roof and go through a window!!!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8769" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I willfully acknowledge the practical benefits of going to a top tier school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8770" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well-paying computer jobs have a relatively low bar for entry</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8771" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record: I willfully acknowledge the practical benefits of going to a top tier school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Often because the kind of people who are into computers are generally also out to get the man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There had better not be a lawsuit. Sam got cut due to relative mediocrity not due to his sexual orientation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I haven't even said it doesn't make sense that things be this way: it does in many ways. These schools act as a gigantic filtration system that makes things easy for the business and organizations in question.<br />Most of these kids in high school or junior high would be far better employees than TAC grads and most are far more naturally gifted, of course.<br />I do think we get shafted, at the end of the day, but...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just don't think the benefit is due to the level of education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8776" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, in most cases these people are not related. It derives directly from how the school is perceived by employers, to be sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8777" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-30T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-30T18:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC students, in general are not great employees. We are more suited to management,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey I resemble that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HEY!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel: I find that really amusing considering that I am actually a manager of sorts. I find that power suits me well. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">middle management philosopher kings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No doubt due to the role model of our tutors, who are all excellent managerial/political types, and to the training in leadership we receive there, and the fact we are all there with fellow type A types who are striving to compete, and to the campus culture which is clearly trying to cultivate managers and leaders - except. Hm.<br />OK, so in some qualified way in some respect, maybe. Hah. Maybe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosopher kings, dude</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8786" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But most recent college graduates SHOULD be getting my coffee, which would also larn them the first lesson they need to larn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh shiz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-08-30T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-08-30T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">-<br />Matthew J. Peterson,<br />I'm glad a TAC degree doesn't lend itself to worldly success. In fact I'm rather sorry the school was accredited.<br />Other than being able to making a living wage, why do you care.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8789" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone just asked me to be friends on Facebook.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why would you be sorry that it's accredited?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-08-30T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-08-30T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Because it changed the type of kids who applied to the school</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">could it be...... could it be the troll we all know and love?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8793" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone know a "Scott Weinberg"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pick me. pick me!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8795" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ME. He tried to befriend me too!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Franklin: So what "type" of kids are now applying to TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8797" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if you really want a get rich scheme, I think the oil business in the Dakotas is the place to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Especially if you had bought up all the property a couple years ago)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8799" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">was, you're late now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DO IT PETERSON!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do it.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sense that the Peregrine might be ready to make a reappearance. From the ashes, the Peregrine arises...much like the Phoenix of old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do. it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-08-30T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-08-30T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Megan Baird,<br />Perhaps it would have been better to say that not being accredited acted as a filter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8805" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOOOOOO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm curious - what type of students do you think TAC is attracting now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">come on, Matthew J. Peterson, what else do you have to do on a Saturday night? Save up for a jet pack?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8808" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife and kids are out of town, so...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8809" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will The PEREGRINE RETURN?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8810" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET 10000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8811" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will stay up as long as it takes to see this thread reach 10000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">10000 is right around the corner</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you know. He could be out for revenge. . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET 4-evah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8815" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I fear no e-troll!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . AND GET TNET shut down. . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmmm.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do you feel lucky?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I'm broke and this is as close to free entertainment as it gets, so why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . .troll trolling punk?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8821" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can even imagine the Eastwood voice.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8822" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"now was that 5 comments, or 6? to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I've forgotten myself"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8823" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Make my day."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T18:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going to go pretend to have a life for a little bit.... we'll see......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am going to have to do something i havent had to do in a long time . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T18:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's my "identical twin" brother separated from birth you are talking about. He represents the Eastern Catholic side of the family. His ancestors were conversoes. My ancestors remained jewish. <br />I'm making this up. He was a character in a draft novella. I was born before email. I did not know you couldn't create fb characters. Not knowing is a beautiful excuse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8827" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone have any questions?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8828" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">THE PEREGRINE RETURNS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8829" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T18:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET 10000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what The Peregrine espoused, you believe, correct?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[is that him, guys?]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8832" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, John, it really is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8833" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T18:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're back!! Our substitute troll was mean, and he lacked commitment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia: The Peregrine has returned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, Samantha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8836" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T18:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can I say something about prestige, or as we call it in academia, pedigree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T18:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do I totally espouse the beliefs of the Peregrine? Not totally, no. And not his "personality" totally, either. He would frequently say things like "do not put words in my mouth." He is a pen name: a true converso to the Catholic Faith, still angry that some Romans from the IVth crusade sacked hotel rooms in Byzantium. Thank you for asking. Any more questions? Any political questions? Any question is okay with me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8839" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">PhDs from top grad schools (barring diversity hires) get ALL THE JOBS. These days, there are so few jobs that even crappy little jobs go to PhDs from fancy schools.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8840" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T18:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, Megan. That was more of a preamble then actually asking for permission, but I appreciate your interest. : )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8842" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T18:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the graduate students at the top grad schools almost all come from schools with highly, *highly* connected professors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8843" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T18:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb was a total anomaly. The rest of his cohort came from schools with very highly regarded philosophy departments</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8844" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The upshot of this, is that if you go to Yale or Princeton as an undergrad and study philosophy, you have an almost incalculable advantage over us poor TAC lovers of wisdom. INCALCULABLE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And let's not forget the diversity hiring... that plays a big part too. If you're African American or Hispanic, that gives you a leg up. I'm not lying. I've seen it play out in the hiring process out here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, if you ever want to get a job</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8847" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about in the private sector though? I think in the private sector, your success rises or falls on if you can bring in money, and hopefully what you do is good and virtuous. TAC really helped me in a couple of key ways, even despite the fact that I could not get past the first year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a tenure-track job, that is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8849" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah, and the reason they are all freaked about diversity is because these places are full of similar white peeps</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8850" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed. The magic combination for a great job is coming from a top tier school, having connections, and a "popular" (i.e. sought after) major/degree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Coming from the top tier school gets you those connections</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, in academia too your success will eventually depend on what you do/how you perform.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't have to be born with them, once you've managed to get into a top tier school. Of course, being born with them helps you get into the top tier school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8854" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But in the private sector you have a lot more opportunity getting in at top tier schools obviously. The jobsters come to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8855" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eventually, although if you have a fancy degree and a fancy advisor who loves you, you have a much better chance to get a 2/2 tenure track job right out of the gate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8856" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then you have more time and resources and support for publishing, which makes it easier for you to publish and publish well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8857" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(212, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just marvel at the person and the society where the truly good person can rise. So many good people get kicked around. Maybe that's a bit like boot camp. Don't know if anyone knows Maggie Wynne. She's a good example of the good rising.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8858" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, and as I said, anyone who has seen the career office at a place like Princeton in action will weep hot tears of jealousy and despair over what TAC has to offer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, can we TACers climb on the roof, smash through a skylight, and arrive at the party looking a bit flustered and as though we don't belong? Some of us can. But it sure is a whole lot easier to get invited and go through the front door, you know?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This example is especially relevant for TAC grads since so many of us would really love to be philosophers or theologians or some such.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some can, to some degree. But many don't want to or have no idea what the terrain looks like.<br />The good news is we could, I think, relatively easily propel up multiple levels in ranking and in terms of job placement if we had the will and the resources.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8862" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The first step is making sure everyone see what is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You gotta know the score.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8864" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Canucks 2 Bruins 1</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm not sure institutionally or among grads if the will is there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep. The tutors back in our day were shocked, SHOCKED that Caleb only got into one of the top schools he applied to. What they didn't know was that it was a miracle he got accepted that that one at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8867" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg: I think good people can rise, but yes a they've always been kicked around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if it's fixable, but our applicants to grad school will always be very hampered by the tutors' lack of connections</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They themselves will admit they have No idea what it looks like out there at all. And institutionally they refuse to take responsibility for so knowing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And of course by the fact that we don't know how to write papers that read like acceptable academic papers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8871" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you've got to get kicked around a bit, not that I advocate kicking, to build character.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8872" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But grads don't seem to care. What they do after really depends on what they know or is expected from their families, and TAC does nothing to encourage or assist those who are unaware of what they could do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8873" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T19:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed, Samantha. TAC definitely needs to help students develop more acceptable academic papers. The writing preceptorial/lessons aren't sufficient. And we need to write more. I was not remotely prepared for the amount of writing I needed to do in grad school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8875" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia should be researching or teaching at a top 100 college or U and consulting with a business.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: nothing I've said involves changing the program at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8877" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know of any professional setting I've been in where I have not found my core beliefs in some way challenged fundamentally, but what do I know. Looking back, it is not bad to place yourself in those environments if that's where your job search takes you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree. Hard Knocks are the best post undergrad teacher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8879" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no problem with changing the program--even if that wasn't your focus. I do wonder, however, what it is you're looking for. Fame, glory, influence, wealth, prestige?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8880" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Excellence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm talking about worldly success here, is what I'm talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mammon, baby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arete. Do you really think the Ivy League can give that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arête<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is worldly success?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, what about influence within the culture?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about a place within mainstream academia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have to have what the culture doesn't have to have meaningful influence within the culture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's true. I'm not saying TAC should become the Ivy Leagues</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8890" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without true arete, you will not change the culture; it will change you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8891" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mainstream academia is, for the most part, a joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8892" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm saying, if some of our graduates want to get PhDs in philosophy that might ever land them tenure track jobs, they need more help than TAC is going to get them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8893" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never said the Ivy League can give that.<br />It does practically, however, as people are often pushed to do their best. We need more of that spirit.<br />We have people who are working crap jobs who could be doing much more - for themselves, their families, and the world.<br />We could be in the world at work, not self-consigned to some ghetto.<br />We could be starting our students out light years above where they are now, setting them up better for life, giving them the opportunity to excel at what they are best at.<br />Instead - well, it is shameful to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you can be a part of the culture without being absorbed by it. I did feel, as much as I loved TAC, that it was lacking a little in practical skills. For example, the writing aspect at the college didn't really prepare me for what I faced at graduate school. I don't recommend changing the program - i wouldn't want the school to lose its identity - but maybe tweaking some elements to better prepare students for graduate studies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, I could be totally off-base in my recommendations...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8896" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The writing program is very weak, but it should not be oriented to writing better graduate school papers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8897" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">These student need jobs! They have a great education that could easily get them more than it does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8898" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if you want to tell a bunch of kids that studying theology and metaphysics is the highest and best thing you can do, great. But then not to consider it your job as a institution to help them out at all along that career path? That's ridiculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8899" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is a solvable problem without "selling out."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8900" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, that is not the school's job; and were they to make it their job, they would be sending a contradictory message to the students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8901" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">One has to desire the education for its own sake if it is to be of any real value. As soon as you start looking at it instrumentally, it's all over.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T19:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fact is, a very small percentage of TACers aspire to continue in philosophy or theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8903" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahaha. Well, it's a hard saying for all the people who wander needlessly for years afterwards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8904" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not all who wander are lost.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure what practical help TAC could give for people wanting to get into engineering or law or medicine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom is more of a writer's college. But I had a boss in DC who tried to destroy my "career" because she was an ideologue who opposed what she thought the college's charter meant and stood for. I think Harvard and Princeton and other places would benefit from the TAC alum, but they probably oppose what they think it stands for. That makes it tough. It's very political. You need to be very lucky to make it in this world, especially if you want to dig gold or make wine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8907" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't have to change one's approach to the education. It just means a number of practical steps and offices set up outside of the education. This ain't rocket science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The key word is "outside." It cannot be a part of the institution if the institution is to be what it professes to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8909" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I think the idea that the institution can teach impressionable youth and then take no responsibility for the context in which they teach them a bit much.<br />The truth is, we are all so ignorant of what these steps are it is really and truly shameful. There is no will or understanding of the world in which we live.<br />And this is why we fail.<br />But it is early on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8910" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I understand the argument, it sounds like rubbish to me. Having a career placement office on the campus (and a sector of that devoted to those who want advanced degrees) wouldn't compromise anything that TAC is doing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8911" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is to perfect the intellect. To gain a treasure that one can carry away in a shipwreck. Then, if one wants a different kind of treasure, one can seek it. But to mix the two would be to destroy the true treasure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is needed is the creation of a strategy consulting firm that specializes in systems engineering, analysis (quantitative and qualitative), LEAN/agile process improvement and implementing best practices. If you hired folk from programs like tac you would have the right skillset for such diverse analytical work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">These students are capable of competing. They do so Anyhow, on their own!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8914" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly. So why the worry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conforming to the neg-otium or a-scholia of the world has in part ruined the universities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Engineering students are mostly incapable of seeing the big picture, acting as a consultant to engineers is a great business</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gown cannot be town and still be gown.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8918" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would it be a Götzendämmerung to have a person on campus devoted to preparing those for the GRE who want to take it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One can buy a prep book. No need to further lower tutor salaries to pay someone to read a prep book to the students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8920" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHY HELP STUDENTS OBTAIN BETTER AND STABLE EMPLOYMENT?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is accidental to the real work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8922" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHat? What contradictory message would they send?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I offered to be at the career day a few years ago but mark never got me on the list.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let them go to graduate school and suffer for years because they have no idea of very basic information that could help them and their large families in a real sense for the rest of their lives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The education is not ordered to success in the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a straw man, Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't have to be ordered to it for the school to acknowledge that it plays some part in their graduate's future happiness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8928" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By your argument any sort of institutional career support would be a betrayal of the college's ethos</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8929" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless you want students to be successful and donate back to the college...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The contradiction is this: You cannot genuinely present yourself as a liberal arts institution and at the same time orient toward worldly success.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8931" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're right. They should do nothing practical for their graduates.<br />The funny thing is, there is no classical school ever that did such a thing to its students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's rubbish. William & Mary. Washington & Lee. Colby. Plenty of schools do it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8933" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is in NO danger of doing that. They could pay a lot, lot more attention to the practical and still not be "oriented toward worldly success"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You seem to be saying that TAC is such a school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8935" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">William and Mary does not provide a liberal arts education, despite their propaganda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8936" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The medieval degrees were all part of practical jobs one could get after. The ancient and other sorts were for those with the wealth and connections for after.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. John's College in Annapolis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8938" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The school just doesn't know how to practically apply to real work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8939" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The way it seems to me we have a too easy time of conforming. Not conforming is harder. That' s my experience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^not relevant^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8941" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll say it one more time: you don't have to change the educational program one bit to take steps to help students get jobs (and assist in the success of the college as well.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And they do not have a separately funded office that understands business enough on how to apply to the current challenges in the business world</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are mistaken. You would have to change the orientation even if you changed nothing formally in the curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where did you go to school Jeffrey? With whom did you study? How did this lead to your own success?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8945" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What success?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey-- do you oppose TAC grads attempting to get jobs? Would this be a betrayal of their devotion to knowledge per se?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8948" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which Jeffrey?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Using the distinction between practical and speculative to dodge the issue is the usual game, and tiresome.<br />There is no example of this in medieval history. St. Thomas Aquinas did not teach in this kind of absurd context, not did Aristotle.<br />It is a load of crap.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8951" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The one who is saying nonsense stuff. Not you Jeff Neill.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8952" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T19:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is success?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8953" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If graduates are allowed to be concerned about their job prospects after graduation, why should the college not be allowed to be so, to some moderate degree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We were not talking about medieval history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I withdraw the question about success. I'm just curious about where you went to school and with whom you studied. I seem to recall that you took a different path than the one you're proposing for the youth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8956" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The medieval institutions were degree mills for people going into medicine, law, and the Church. The Church was one of the largest employers around.<br />So you tell me, Jeffrey Bond: that practically orientated context produced St. Thomas Aquinas and his textbook.<br />Why can't our graduates get institutional help to continue on practically?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8957" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">B.A. from Kenyon College. M.A. and Ph.D. from the University of Chicago. Never took a different path than the one I am proposing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8958" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle would never have written the Ethics if he wasn't trying to influence young leaders/nobles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8959" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once had a "boss" who googled the Christendom mission statement, and based on that -- even though I was a total wall-flower -- decided I was on a secret crusade to "restore all things to Christ" which meant everything the world misrepresents about the Faith. But I've always thought Christendom could tone it down a bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are talking about a liberal arts college, not medical school or law school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is not "just" a liberal arts college though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said, I have no problem discussing changes in the TAC curriculum, but the desire to make the school more oriented to worldly success would destroy it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You went to Kenyon and the University of Chicago?? You are no longer allowed to talk, sir.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one is talking about changing its fundamental orientation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess it depends how you define success.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T19:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, are we allowed to have a career office at all? Or only if it remains ineffectual?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8968" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not being a cradle Catholic, I knew nothing about TAC or what it represented. Thankfully there was still a shadow of liberal arts education at Kenyon and the University of Chicago. So I know something of both worlds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm keenly aware of the problems at The Other - but I don't accept the idea that being cognizant and active about these issues means one has to alter one's contemplative orientation. Probably would only sharpen it, given that none of the contemplative authors we read acted in some context less vaccuum I pure contemplation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is your straw man representation of my position, but not my position at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not just a contemplative orientation. It is a complete dedication to perfecting the intellect quite apart from any practical gain that comes from that. As it turns out, such an education has tremendous practical consequences. But once you begin to make that your goal, liberal education will die.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8972" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is the skillset taught is directly applicable to a number of jobs but either the school is unaware how to market to fill the void -- I do not believe that the school believes that being practical should never result from the theoretical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8973" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T19:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that a stronger Thomas Aquinas College Alumni Association would be better than a career office</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8974" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8975" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T19:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially if it involved some kind of nepotistic hiring practices </p>
</li>
<li id="post_8976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other Jeff seems to say that theoretical would cease if ever steered toward the practical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would no longer be theoretical by definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many great poets at Kenyon over the years, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8979" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T19:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would gladly be nepotistic... I'm working on getting to that roll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8980" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T19:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's only the case if one tried to be practical and theoretical in one act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8981" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-30T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-30T19:56:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well personally, I went to TAC because I wanted to make a lot of money. That's why I became a teacher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As it is, there is not enough time in four years to do what needs to be done in terms of liberal education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8983" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T19:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, graduate degree in philosophy is where the big bucks are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8984" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T19:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TACers are practical enough to aviod gendeer/woman studies degrees, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8985" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many of you see the institution only from the perspective of a student who leaves wondering how to translate his education into making a living. But to see the institution from the inside is to be acutely aware of how little time there is to do what the school proposes to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8986" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T19:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there's a psychological aspect as well. When I got kicked out of TAC a second time (for lack of intelligence and bad manners) it took a while to find a path that was aligned with the good I discovered there. I always just wanted to go back to the Shire. I do not know if this is psychological or because there is no connection between truth and the world. But everyone does find a way. I think there is an integration... a Word becoming flesh kind of thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-08-30T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-08-30T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I notice that Scott Weinberg has dragged his new hide back to The Threadness. Is he being nicer now? Will he tolerate some perfectly reasonable and serious questions about didactic poetry once the 67th installment of the discussion on TAC's curriculum is over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My choice was between the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester and TAC. I would not trade my education at TAC for anything, but with an eye on my later prospects for a Philosophy Ph.D. and a job, I probably should have gone to Holy Cross.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes! And I need to know if free verse is okay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8990" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, you have said it all Daniel. Why would you not trade your TAC education for anything? Even for a Ph.D.? But a more practical orientation would not have given you the same education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The subsequent tension with the world is a sign that the student has been changed, and changed for the better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A comfortable transition to the world would be deadly, and not even possible if the education has been real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8993" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(212, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I just wished that someone would have prepared me more for graduate school and given me better advice. Not all of us score perfectly on the GRE and have our pick of Ivy League programs in Philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's either a stark oil and water relationship between a TAC formation and some other things, or there's a pending illumination to be discovered. Either/or, it seems to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8995" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What could someone have done for you? Like Dorothy, you had to find out for yourself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice analogy. You know Oz was a Socialist paradise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, man crucified on a yellow brick cross of gold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8998" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which doesn't bother me, of course ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_8999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of writing, I had dinner at TAC with this guy (I think) http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/about/r-scott-turicchi once. He related to us that his company had once done an essay competition and that the essays of TACers were obviously better than everyone else's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9000" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The school should do a lot more writing. When I was there the students wrote only a few papers the entire year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno about that. Writing takes a lot of time and junior/senior year are pretty time-demanding as it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I found the transition to graduate-level writing to be more a matter of applying myself to actually writing than learning some foreign skill.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I wouldn't claim, however, that I'm particularly good at it: but neither are most academics nowadays. I know, I edit for an academic journal)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9004" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some of the articles I used to edit for the Review (and before that for the ACPQ) were atrocious. No, not some: many.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem of bad academic writing is real, but I'm talking about the problem TAC grads will have when they send their "writing samples" to grad schools.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Were the tutors unwilling to read those samples before you sent them off?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say more, I wasn't interested in any of the prestigious schools, so I don't have any experience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9008" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The tutor who was isn't there anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9009" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, Ms. Zedlick helped me put alot of work into my writing sample, and I got into both schools I applied to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So why not go to a different tutor? I'm not sure I understand the problem?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Were they CUA and Ave?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9012" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, CUA and UST.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9013" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-30T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-30T20:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Couldn't agree more with MJP and Jeff Neill. I've always found some irony in the fact that the college is always quick to point out the success of some of their graduates in their publications as well as the admission office, but do so little to help them take that next step to get there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The tutors are overburdened already</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(which probably explains why I was accepted)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, well both of those are on the short list of places where good TAC students do seem able to get in</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9017" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I guess you guys seem to be able to get jobs at other small Catholic schools sometimes. But I'm sure I don't have to tell you its hella rough out there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The sense I have, though, is that that's because fair number of TACers have been through those places and established a relatively good reputation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9019" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:15:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unlike Notre Dame which, for some reason, has decided they hate TAC grads.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9020" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unlike Notre Dame where they have apparently barred the gates against us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9021" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jinx!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9022" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(although we now have Sean Kelsey inside)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9023" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can tell you the reason: NIETO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this just a rumour? Quack thought it was because TACers generally just wanted to teach at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is complete and total nonsense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9027" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mark Kretchmer does the best he can with what he has. The main problem is a tutor culture that doesn't see this as their job ever in any way shape or form and are almost all ignorant of how the system works.<br />We will continue to do better as we pump out more alumni and we do much better than many might expect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is true. The tutors also by and large have no idea how to write letters of recommendation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is probably less true of some of the younger ones.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MacArthur told me what his letter was</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9031" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:19:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">As someone who worked for the school for a few years I can tell you that Mark is completely overburdened, also has no direct experience with academia on the whole.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"You accepted so-and-so and gave him money and this dude is just as good as he was, so you should give him money too"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But mostly, letters from people who have no connections are pretty much useless</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sounds about right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9035" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course he is. They overburden all the "practical people."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9036" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's also complete plurality of opinions among tutors about approaching academia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like Tom Dillon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once I obtained the degree in December, I've taught at some fair to decent schools and now a shmancy one. I love Claremont McKenna.<br />I'll likely never be hired there tenure track, because of my pedigree and the fact that these place don't eat their own like as opposed to---</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9039" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I was applying to grad school, I was given information about ITI and Ave and that's it. I did 100% of the leg work myself. I got a lot of helpful advice from some of the younger tutors about what TAC would NOT be able to do for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Writing is a good way to discover what's in your soul. The Logos is more than Reason. One of the things I've noticed is Christendom grads have this inescapable grasp of Christ, Logos, in His Church. I'm not saying writing is the answer, but I do think what TAC proposes is what I wished Christendom had much more of, because Reason is the material spouse of Logos, so to speak. I do not understand why TAC expels great future poets and statesmen because they aren't intelligent enough to do Euclid, or patient enough to everything becoming clear later on. Intelligence is broader than that. But, alas, I am biased. At least I am cheering for the Logos!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9041" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I don't mean that ironically, it actually was helpful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boston College is another one that seems relatively open to TACers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9043" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a graduate student working at the college I got some very helpful opinions from some tutors about publishing and networking with other professors that I might be doing doctoral studies with it was actually pretty helpful. It helps a lot that I had a pretty distinct idea of what I was interested in studying and lots of motivation (bugging them lol)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9044" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But with some time and effort publishing, I think I have a decent shot at a lot more than the small circle of usual suspects. But this is largely because I naturally have some skills already (and I don't have other skills that others do have) and that I've developed on my own over many years of learning the score the hard way.<br />Getting a tenure track job is harder these days than getting an entertainment deal done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9045" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and they even give credit for studying with Duane Berquist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9046" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's write a movie about this. I know a great producer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9047" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So is the problem just that tutors don't care about helping students get into graduate school by writing letters of recommendation for them? Is the problem that the students have to do all the work when it comes to where they go next?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9048" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All of the above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, it's kinda funny, Chris Decaen's two articles for the Thomist seem pretty widely read in Catholic philosophy circles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9050" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's the more? Because at every institution the students have to find the professors who will help them to the next level. That is the nature of the beast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-30T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-30T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The students should do most of them work, but I think the college should provide in assist in getting them on the right path.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the real problem is that TAC is well established in the Catholic circles but isn't old enough to have a strong reputation outside of those circles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who was it that sued mitre dame law for anti des rumination whan they discovered that he was from South Africa and was white skinned? It made some news back in the day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T20:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Norte dame law</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the issue is the curriculum is too difficult in some areas, and needs a tad more of the easier, more important stuff... in my unbiased opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry iphone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9058" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ray Tittman, I believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9059" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The deeper problem here, I think, is a cartoon understanding of practical and speculative and a deep rooted insecurity and lack of excellence that prevents hiring tutors who would be able to tutor well and retain connection to the "outside."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, if you're looking into prestigious Catholic institutions, you should be OK. (except Notre Dame) But we still need to make an impression on the larger academic world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are the other prestigious Catholic institutions?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Logos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9063" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CUA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CUA has a pretty good reputation in Catholic circles</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">PhD granting, I mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^lol Samantha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9067" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wippel is basically the master of living Thomists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the non-cartoon understanding that you propose, Matthew? What is excellence according to this model?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Noone is ridiculously well connected</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Institute of Phenomenology in Lichtenstein. jk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9071" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Msgr. Sokolowski is Msgr. Catholic Phenomenology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9072" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We might have different definitions of prestigious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The root problem to my mind is speculative: I think there is a problematic disdain for and unnatural separation of practical and speculative lurking about.<br />But you combine this with lack of competition and insular enclavism and no requirements for tutors to do much of anything besides seminar style classes and you stagnate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant "prestigious qua Catholic"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if CUA places its grads in tenure track jobs then more power to them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not "prestigious and Catholic"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9077" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The idea that you can't tutor well and write a few articles and books now and then as well is absurd. The two things can and should inform each other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9079" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://philosophy.cua.edu/placement.cfm<br />Job Placement<br />The majority of our Ph.D. graduates have gone on to tenure-track or permanent* positions at the post-secondary level, in the U.S. and abroad. Of those who have not, some have chosen to engage in work outside of academia (e.g., in medicine, in music, as a member of a religious order), and some have c…<br />PHILOSOPHY.CUA.EDU<br />August 30 at 8:30pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley "The majority of our Ph.D. graduates have gone on to tenure-track or permanent* positions at the post-secondary level, in the U.S. and abroad. Of those who have not, some have chosen to engage in work outside of academia (e.g., in medicine, in music, as a member of a religious order), and some have chosen to conduct their searches only in very restricted geographical areas. Thus, graduates of our program who engage in unrestricted job searches have excellent chances of finding a position teaching philosophy in a college or university. Most do so in four-year Catholic colleges or seminaries; some do so in Ph.D.-granting institutions or non-Catholic colleges."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what would be changed to right the ship of speculation/practice?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9081" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Loyola Marymount has some great philosophy people. Eric Perl. Gretchen Gusich, others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"*A “permanent” position here means a non-limited-term position at an institution that does not grant tenure, such as a seminary."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Phenomenology does an end run around the moderns, but you need Christian philosophy to intregrate it with classical Aristhomism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about recently? I mean, since the market tanked?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since 2009?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Write some articles and books? Fine. But how does that change the relationship of theory and practice?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9087" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They need to attract and hire better tutors, and keep them there. They need to let a bit of air out the chimney to keep the fire going.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's dated 2010, I'm not sure about recently</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom College has a prestigious online MA program in theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9090" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it's counting placement since 1991</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9091" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">New Scott is hilarious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know the answer to that question, Samantha, TBH. Edward is more in the thick of things right now. I would say that if you want to do MEDIEVAL philosophy, and specifically Neoplatonism, you could do worse than study with Stephen Gersh at Notre Dame.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like him better than old Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, sure, Notre Dame. But they don't take us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not the Philosophy department, but the Medieval Institute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Better tutors--who could disagree? How does that change the relationship of theory and practice?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9097" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, a TACer with a basically perfect application was told that "they find it better to make TACers wait a year before accepting them"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think she ever tried again, she got married and now lives in NYC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At the Medieval Institute?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it was ND phil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but not exactly sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHO?? Emily Sullivan?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Edward, you don't know if recent PhDs from CUA are getting tenure track jobs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(NB, I have this all second-hand, but you've guessed who I'm talking about)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that was the philosophy department, but she can correct me if I'm wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. John Brungardt was hired temporarily at Benedictine College and I think there's a chance that he'll get a further position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got in there, too, but not in philosophy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9108" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom should have a medieval bestiary in its curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9109" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I haven't really been keeping up with the job-related stuff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9110" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">They need to think a bit harder about why it is that no college, ever, had such a disinterest institutionally for the practical. And no author we read thought or acted this way. <br />St. Thomas might have "published" so much it killed him. Aristotle was a pretty active dude, overseeing and engaging in all kinds of "practical" tasks. <br />The tutors need a kick in the ass. They need to be encouraged to continue their education and engage with others while there (it can be with other Thomists, etc.) They need a wider variety of tutors re their background and pedigree.<br />This doesn't mean that they lose their salt. But don't pretend to complain about how hard it is to find people other than your own grads when don't even advertise open positions. Bwhahaha...asinine.<br />This is one of the best job markets in history for potential tutors.<br />But note the ones who aren't content to simply read the books and tutor either leave or become upset - even when these "other activities" are actually helping to inform and being informed by their tutoring.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you know that Christendom College still doesn't have a medieval bestiary in its curriculum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Shields was hired at Xavier College` but not sure if that's a tenure-track position</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9113" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-08-30T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, they have Shields and Furlan! Maybe we should just make a Great Books utopia in Cincinnati!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha: Here are the programs offered by the MI at ND, but the question I can't answer is WHO, among the Philosophy faculty would review one's application before admission, if one chose to apply in the area of Philosophy. http://medieval.nd.edu/people/faculty/faculty-by-field/<br />Faculty by Field // Medieval Institute // University of Notre Dame<br />The Medieval Institute at Notre Dame promotes research...<br />MEDIEVAL.ND.EDU|BY AGENCYND // UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9115" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-30T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-30T20:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Taking a #DigitalSabbath friends. See you on the far side of 10,000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9116" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC should not expel poets, though, even if they yell at the tutor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough. I know something of what you say from having been on the inside. But I don't think the problem is the disinterestedness in the practical. That is the school's strength.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(but my ongoing debate is should I pursue philosophy, or jump ship and get into computers)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9119" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, the entire tutor model or the extent to which it is taken, is not in its extreme TAC form part of any of the great U's or academies of all time.<br />No research/publishing reqs of any kind? Ever? Even in and with circles of like minded others friendly to your cause - God forbid you wrestle with those who disagree professionally, like, you know, the greats we read and like the method we profess seems to suggest you should. Not only to stay fresh, but to pursue the truth I hear so much about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9120" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did the medieval universities have "publishing requirements"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most of the publishing we have from them are the equivalent of Dissertations and class notes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9122" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But don't get me wrong: love it dearly, will defend it to the death, and protect the shire at all costs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most of Scotus, for example, is in the form of "reportationes" which are basically student transcriptions of lectures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: I'm not sure, but they all wrote more than any tutor. St. Thomas probably died from how hard he worked, and a large part of that was writing .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Thomas, as Dr. Noone has pointed out though, is the exception to the rule</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's one of the only medieval men who wrote in order to be read</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle seems not to have been prevented from pursuing the truth while writing and pursuing many research projects at the same time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The tutors have plenty of "research projects" in some sense of the phrase</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9129" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle may well have be the world's greatest genius</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9130" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nieto, for example, has been working on a comparison of Thomistic psychology with the findings of neurobiology for some time now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9131" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some do, and I love them for it - because they "do" put of love and pursuit of excellence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9132" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward please pffft</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But as you just said, Nieto is more exception than rule: most get lazy unless nudged.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9135" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you want more from one institution than any one institution can provide. You seem to both love it and hate it. I think its speculative orientation is absolutely correct for an undergraduate institution, but individual human weaknesses, some of which became "institutionalized," were a problem when I was there. I don't know about now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9136" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Coughlin has chaired sessions at the ACPA and has several Aristotle translations</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just kidding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Physics published, De Anima in a complete draft)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought Danny was teaching at a seminary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9140" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T20:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And most academic publishing of the best time is writing for the sake of understanding. And for letting iron sharpen iron amongst experts.<br />This idea that in the "outside" at respected national liberal arts colleges teaching suffers on account of research is absurd. They have fantastic teachers - even at the method of TAC - of the highest quality. And the research reqs don't hold it back, unlike at the big Us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9141" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe I'm mistaken, Samantha, but I remember him being hired at Xavier University</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9142" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, to be fair, some of the most respected researchers are less spectacular in the classroom (Wippel, for example)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9143" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sokolowski, however, is amazing in the classroom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rule # 9,547 of the Christendom book of rules: A yelling poet gets at least one written warning before it even becomes an issue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9145" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All of academica is broke</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real problem with academia is contraception and NFP: not enough students to make jobs for all the freshly minted teachers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is academia? The modern university? The encyclicals are not broke. Someone's getting something from somewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9148" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The world is broke Adrw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9149" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We still have to live in it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are mistaken, Matthew, about the tension between serious research and publishing (in the modern sense) and great teaching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9151" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Emily Sullivan" data-date="2014-08-30T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Sullivan at 2014-08-30T20:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I started off in the honors program at Loyola in Baltimore someone met with you, as a freshman, the first week of school, someone met with you to ask if you planned to compete for the Rhodes or the Fullbright. Now I don't think TAC should be doing that, but like Samantha I found it nearly impossible to get good advice about grad school except from Adrw Lng<br />Sumer Fellowships that I got from Notre Dame, Boston U. ISI, grants from the Fund for Theological Education were all things I found on my own.If you're a student whose ambitious about pursuing grad school its likely that you'll get a pamphlet for Ave and CUA, but it doesn't seem to be that the school would betray its character by hiring someone who is really in the know to coach students who are ambitious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9152" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish a terminal MA was a viable career choice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, that is where you are wrong. The real problem is administrators.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are modern science and medieval science oil and water? What's wrong with oil and water being oil and water?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I embrace a Catholic both/and, Samantha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christendom's online MA program does away with Administrators!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More students, fewer administrators and free scotch for everyone!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9159" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to live in the world Samantha but not academia </p>
</li>
<li id="post_9160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Online programs are a trick to educate people without teachers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9161" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T20:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The modern universities are not universities at all. There is no "one-turning" because there is no agreement about first principles. It is a war for students, money, and prestige. No integration or understanding of the various disciplines and their relationship to one another. Chaos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All you need is a bunch of people to run the computers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. administrators</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9164" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T20:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why can't modern universities just be different than medieval first causes? Where's the rub?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Getting rid of tension and letting people who don't even have to put the time into lectures or grading papers simply read books and talk about them with little to no fresh air is a surefire way to bring about dissolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A war for students, money and prestiege? Do you think maybe the government is involved?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's probably what everyone told MacArthur in the 60s and 70s</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9169" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plenty of tension among the tutors at TAC, at least in the "old days." But the tendency to hire graduates of the school was, I think, a problem on a number of levels.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the TAC faculty has so devolved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9171" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do philosophy departments teach these days? Sean Kelsey? He was the smartest guy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On that, at least, we can agree Jeffrey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Explain the devolution as you see it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I still think something like what they do is ideal. It's just these little lies and strawmen - you can publish and it can help inform your pursuit of truth and teaching. By engaging you in dialectic throughout your career with peers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone think that the second or third generation of tutors is of stature of the first?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, they should be allowed to go to conferences</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9177" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and meet people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still don't understand "pffft", Adrw Lng</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9179" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you cut the teaching load in half, you can have some of what you desire. But four sections is tough, especially if you have never before done, for example, Euclid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Decaen is pretty great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TOTALLY agree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9182" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T21:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward just was laughing about the "projects" comment about the tutors NBD</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9183" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">About the Decaen and also about cutting the teaching load in half</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Nieto is good, but he's not everyone's cup of tea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hear that: I'm not for swamping them down and what they do is in many respects tough, especially early on. Dunno if I could swing all the classes or anything myself, at least well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Todays philosophers are the experts of today. I think Aristotle meant these guys in his Topics. Commonly held truths which were really false with which you begin the whole process of opinion masquerading as truth. TAC should be able to take them apart, dialect by dialect, just like Thomas did. That would be irresistable. But it would take a long time to study all the modern experts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9187" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never had Coughlin (probably 'cause he's my uncle)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nieto is more of a coffee guy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9189" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but Coughlin, O'Reilly and similar are great tutors to have teach you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9190" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb suggests that TAC have a visiting scholar program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Emily Sullivan" data-date="2014-08-30T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Sullivan at 2014-08-30T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lehman was always doing side academic hustles, giving papers in Rome, but he left for Hillsdale.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really do think, though, that different skills make for good teachers and good researchers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">blah. TAC can fall into the ocean for the help it gives people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that is generally true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably better not to start talking about individuals IMHO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9196" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Suggest TAC and Christendom have an arranged intra-marriage program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I think that's how we got Ferrier</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, and welcome back Scott..... although you've blocked me so I can't see you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">tutor swap with St Johns</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9200" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They need to be re-awakened. They need to awaken a communal and ongoing intellectual life among tutors. They should teach all classes but embrace and not fear special areas of interest. They should commune and argue and debate and write and research with other like minded institutions and groups and conference and journals, etc. Done with priorities in right mind, this would help inform their work in the classroom, not hinder it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See? So it WAS a good idea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The tutor model also gives student a very unreal picture of what teaching in most times and places is and has been and will ever be like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not just with St. John's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9204" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We could have visiting tutors who are specialists, and only teach their areas of specialization for a semester</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But all that takes time, Matthew</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9207" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh oh. What did I say?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9210" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, now you really are rewriting the curriculum and the mission. I suppose it appears that you could make these kinds of changes and still keep the aspect of the college you love, but that is not so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They wouldn't be lecturing. They'd still be fulfilling the role of tutor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9212" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, the tutors who do maintain some outside contact were less than stellar in the classroom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9213" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could hire a specialist for a semester to teach about the medieval bestiary, for example. That's just one example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although maybe they'd give a Friday night lecture or two</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9215" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(i.e. Goyette)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9216" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YOU TAKE THAT BACK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9218" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is not at all what I am suggesting, Scott. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg - Michael Beitia wants to be unblocked and see your comments if you wish</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now we must duel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">this sucks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's sad that people think this would be changing the mission.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The curriculum remains the same!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9224" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, I admire your fortitude</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been blocked by Michael Beitia? No wonder this thread does not make any sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9226" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: they have no lectures to prep. They have zero req.s. <br />They could make Effing time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9227" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still think the requirements for research are antithetical to the requirements for teaching</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could have hired, for example, Seamus Heaney, for a semester to teach poetry. (He passed away recently.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But one could take steps to ensure this stuff was informing them and helping not hurting their teaching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Decaen is amazing. So incredibly smart and snarky. One of my favorite tutors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9231" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And be known for sub-standard research?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. No one is going to get what I'm saying so I'll shaddup.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9233" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Decaen rhyme with upon, or with pecan, or Ducayne?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get you Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9235" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And as far as prep-time, the tutor's I've talked to (Anthony Andres, who came from Christnedom, for example) say it takes more time to prep for a seminar than for a lecture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">whatever. the degree from TAC is like a degree from DeVry..... without all the technical skill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9237" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It absolutely would change the mission. You take for granted what the school now is, and that somehow it would remain the same while you added this and changed that. Certainly changing this book or that particular reading would not alter the mission, but what you are after really is something different. I think you underestimate what it takes to create and sustain an institution like TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Peterson, keep talking. Please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because in a lecture you can control the course of the questions to a greater degree than you can control the TAC seminars</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9240" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The curriculum stays the same!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9241" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">(unless you happen to be Berquist, who just lectured)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9242" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A seminar does not take more time to prepare than a lecture, but a tutorial does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9243" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T21:16:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are some circumstantial things keeping tutors from doing research such as finishing their doctoral thesis and having a huge family (lol)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9244" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By "seminar" I meant "whatever happens in a classroom at TAC"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andres graduated from TAC though. When he left Christendom, the whole thing went ker-sploosh!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9246" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">For real. The tutors don't need to have such a heavy teaching load. TAC could cut it in half</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And hire twice the faculty? I'd be all for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-08-30T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-08-30T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm listening, Matthew J. Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9250" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There needs to be a bestiary in the curriculum, to bring it all together, and to make it possible to integrate the medieval with the modern in the Ivy League schools.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As long as they wait four or five years before doing so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a TAC Tutors' Union?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's called tenure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No it isn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's called Permanent Appointment and it's pretty different than tenure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9256" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who shuts up because no one is listening on TNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9257" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do tutors have rights at TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LOL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok, not sure what the diff is. I'm more a speculative guy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9261" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:20:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">The seminar is (or at least should be) ordered to the expression of reasoned opinion--it does not aim at truth--and therefore the conversation can go here and there so long as the students are getting a chance to practice speaking about serious matters. (This is why Homer and Plato get so badly butchered.) But the tutorial has a different end, that end being knowledge (not opinion), and therefore the conversation cannot just go here or there. It must resolve to knowledge. Hence, not much preparation is needed for seminar, but a tremendous amount of preparation is need for a tutorial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a Category of rights for the Tutor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but not the student. That's it, isn't it. That's what this whole never-ending thread is about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9264" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought this thread was about all things....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9266" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There should be a support group "spouses and families of TNET"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is freshman Euclid a seminar or tutorial. And what is TNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond- were you a tutor? What's your deal?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or: "TNET Participants Anonymous"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9270" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you buy that distinction between seminar and tutorial, then it seems to me you can begin to distinguish excellent tutors from those less so. Some allow a tutorial to get lost like a seminar. Others try to make a seminar resolve to truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's TNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9272" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I am a fallen away TAC tutor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Freshmen Euclid is a tutorial, not seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The NeverEnding Thread"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is TNET a gnostic thing, or an apologetical thing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When? How long?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9277" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It should actually be "TNT" because it's explosive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9278" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr. Bond was before my time....back in the Jurassic period. (Kidding)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9279" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Three years. From 1989 to 1991.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hence, the reason I should have prepared more for Euclid than Homer?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Were you there when Mike or Mark Langley was there, Dr. Bond?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9282" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I've been treating you like a peer. Sorry. I blame the Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9283" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">everyone is a peer on TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The nature of freshman mathematics is such that it requires a lot more preparation than seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even so. Once you teach a tutorial a few times, yah got it. I've been around a few blocks in and out of the academy. And I do NOT think that TAC tutors don't have the time to keep their intellectual life going by writing and conferencing, etc.<br />The best ones do anyhow - the ones that don't leave, anyways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9286" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone feel free to cut and paste what Mr. Beitia is saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9287" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I recall the name "Langley," but I don't think we overlapped. Please call me Jeff. No problem, Samantha. All are peers on the Peterson thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9288" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Euclid takes very little preparation. It teaches itself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9289" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree. I spent hours preparing for Euclid, and loved every minute of those hours.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It look a lot of preparation for me - maybe I'm a unique case. It took me months to catch on but when I did, I loved it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I taught it to high school students</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrine had counseling. Beitia can you see this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Euclid is not preparation for poetry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I loved every minute of Euclid. . . but it is so elegant. so well ordered</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the hardest parts to teach are the definitions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The truth is, at top tier national liberal arts colleges they care dearly about teaching. And they often do that well. And they can easily find people who can also publish and conference without breaking a sweat.<br />To be sure, at many U's the research requirements are obscene.<br />Anyhow - my concern is for the teaching. The teaching stagnates when tutors stagnate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, and the minutiae of bk X</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once I understood Euclid, I really loved it. I spent 3 hours with Dr. Cain learning Book 1. Prop 47. That was the pivotal moment in my life when I fell in love with Euclid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">People should go here: https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=blocking to see if they are inadvertently blocking anyone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia: unblock Scott. He is trying to communicate with you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cain is amazing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9302" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tell him I went to counseling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9303" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T21:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson is also right that it is a crazy buyers market out there. Hungry, brilliant PhDs ripe for the picking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, if you teach a tutorial a few times it becomes easier, but at TAC you move to another tutorial as soon as you master the first. At least that is what is supposed to happen. Certain tutors were kept in certain places to minimize the damage they could do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I struggled with Euclid until Cain took me under his wing. It was a bloody revelation for me when I finally grasped the Pythagorean theorem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott says that The Peregrine went to counseling, Michael Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9307" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want University Administratir heads on pikes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-30T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think increased dialogue between tutors and outside intellectuals would be an enormous improvement. From what I understand they are trying to move in that direction, but I'm not sure what that translates into in reality. I do think that a guest tutor program would be a bad idea since it would destroy the integration which is so key to the program's success.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha: you make PHds sound like tasty fruit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9310" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then they could increase tenured jobs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T21:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Scott misses you Michael.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9312" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Book 1 Prop 47 was pivotol for me too. But in a different way. If only the Ace came up the next day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not suggesting they simply try to be a top national liberal arts college and imitate those places. That would be no goot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he's blocking me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=blocking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9316" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was called for Prop 47, bombed it. Cain sat me down because I was not understanding Euclid at all, we spent three hours on that prop and the next day he asked for a volunteer to do it. I volunteered, did it perfectly. And voila, I was redeemed. TURNING moment for me at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg - you are blocking Beitia, he say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg look here to see if you're blocking Michael Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=blocking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9320" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I block no one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, MA is supposed to be sufficient for teaching . . . Ph.Ds should be rarer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not think the "top" liberal arts colleges care deeply about teaching. Many friends who have gone to the top schools testify that that is not so. Many come out having learned nothing. Freshman at TAC know more than almost all my fellow graduate students at Chicago. That is no joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also turning moment? Senior year mathematics with Dr. Richard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9324" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We'd have to distinguish teaching from what is being taught, no doubt. Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9325" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">aaah scottegrine..... I can see you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9326" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was I who was blocking Beitia. How utterly small and petulant of me. I'm going back to counseling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9327" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think, ideally people wouldn't be expected to have a Ph.D until they were like 50 and had a brilliant career.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It may have been from a while ago.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9329" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then "Doctor" would actually mean something</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr. Richard Ferrier?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you integrate math with poetry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9332" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Using u-substitution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, perhaps, the fundamental theorem of calculus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is u-substitution a kind of metaphor or the implied premise of an enthymeme?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9335" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">F(x) = d(math)/d(poetry)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps the best seminar style teacher I have ever seen teaches at Washington & Lee. I know many an Ivy educated and fantastic teachers at Claremont McKenna. Michael Sandel's Justice course is a hit online for a reason: it is amazing what he does in a class that size.<br />You don't teach at Williams, etc. if you are a crap teacher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">F(x) = d(math)/d(poetry) leads my soul to beauty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9338" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://poetry.about.com/od/poems/l/blmillayeuclid.htm<br />Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare by Edna St. Vincent Millay<br />“Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare,” Sonnet from...<br />POETRY.ABOUT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9339" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree about crap teachers at top schools. They are everywhere. If you have published a textbook or have made a name through publishing, then teaching matters not a whit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9340" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_9341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's the point Peterson? You want TAC to have a better name for tenure track, I just want Goldman Sachs beating down my door, IT AINT HAPPENING</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9342" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My goal in philosophy is to influence papal policy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">IT WILL BE AWESOME!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9344" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ack! and you don't like Latin!? Get behind me Edward Langley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9345" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Finally excommunicating those execrable Molinists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9346" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sending out the SWAT inquisitors to take out all them personalists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9347" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and NNL types</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't even get me started about traddy-whacks </p>
</li>
<li id="post_9349" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">kumbaya</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would totally give you the fist-bump of peace</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll introduce liturgical swing dance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">with a "phsheeew" and wiggling fingers moving away</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9353" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't swing.<br />Liturgical slam-dance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Matthew J. Peterson, the "Laval school" has never been well connected</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9355" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's for them Toronto types</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9356" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real Thomist travels long distances to find the last faithful guardian of the tradition and then carries the secret until he can pass it on to the next generation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maritain? Gilson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You mean in matters of faith and morals, in what the Church teaches?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9359" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he's speaking of #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does math give language to nature? Serious question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9361" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Scott, I'm talking about the secret teachings known only to the few.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9362" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES (scott)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, good. I get it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#thomasticgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where can I go to find this secret knowledge?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9366" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those for whom "Gilson" never passes their lips without a curse</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The quest is long, Scott, and the path arduous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the way known to only a few</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can do it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9371" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You must first demonstrate I.47 in ancient Greek.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the asses bridge....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what was that pons asini?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1.47 is the right angle triangle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9375" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">VI. 31 is more universal. I. 47 is the special case</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pythagorean theorem is I.47</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">asinorum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9378" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I.6 is the pons asinorum</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">special case of VI 31</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9380" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.5</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is that the hypoteneus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"If a triangle has two equal sides, the angles at the base are equal"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9384" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The truth is that most of the top schools are empty shells. I have had many of my best high school students initially reject my advice to go to TAC and instead go to Princeton (Jenny Tilley), Georgetown (Peter Kwasniewski) or William and Mary (Matt Nolan). After one disappointing year, each of them transferred to TAC and discovered a world of real learning rather than the sophistry being dished out at these prestigious institutions of higher learning. Perhaps some of you know Jenny (who is now a nun), Peter (who teaches at Wyoming Catholic) and Matt (who could be anywhere!). No doubt they would have been more "successful" had they not transferred, but thank God they went to TAC and became failures in the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9385" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T21:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The demonstration was often said to be the point at which people who couldn't do math would fail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9386" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why I suggested it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9387" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T22:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, Jeffrey. My logorhea stops at the careerist talk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O, 1.47... called on Tuesday but could only do Wednesday. But I could do it. a2 + b2 = c2. Honestly, I got that. Honestly. But why does it matter. <br />a2 + b2 = c2 is it the same thing as the rose is beautiful, the woman is a rose, the woman is beautiful. ??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9389" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or VI. 31 where you can show that similar and similarly constructed clown's heads work as well as the squares in I 47</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9390" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The final step of the first stage of the journey is the fabled "Death Star"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9391" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T22:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">a syllogistic doggeral.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(although it's actually not as difficult as one of the neighbouring props)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then, thou shalt interpret the following verse aright:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />Good luck befriend thee, Son; for, at thy birth,<br />The faery ladies danc'd upon the hearth;<br />Thy drowsy nurse hath sworn she did them spie<br />Come tripping to the room where thou didst lie,<br />And, sweetly singing round about thy bed,<br />Strew all their blessings on thy sleeping head.<br />She heard them give thee this, that thou shouldst still<br />From eyes of mortals walk invisible:<br />Yet there is something that doth force my fear;<br />For once it was my dismal hap to hear<br />A Sibyl old, bow-bent with crooked age,<br />That far events full wisely could presage,<br />And, in time's long and dark prospective glass,<br />Foresaw what future days should bring to pass;<br />"Your son," said she, ("nor can you it prevent)<br />Shall subject be to many an Accident.<br />O'er all his brethren he shall reign as king,<br />Yet every one shall make him underling;<br />And those, that cannot live from him asunder,<br />Ungratefully shall strive to keep him under;<br />In worth and excellence he shall out-go them,<br />Yet, being above them, he shall be below them;<br />From others he shall stand in need of nothing, <br />Yet on his brothers shall depend for clothing.<br />To find a foe it shall not be his hap,<br />And Peace shall lull him in her flowery lap;<br />Yet shall he live in strife, and at his door<br />Devouring War shall never cease to roar;<br />Yea, it shall be his natural property<br />To harbour those that are at enmity.<br />What power, what force, what mighty spell, if not<br />Your learned hands, can loose this Gordian knot?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">KUMBAYA showed up? What's next? The sign of peace? Hand holding?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hitler has yet to appear</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YOU are Hitler.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For suggesting my favorite tutor is a less than awesome tutor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9399" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . ignorant women . . . </p>
</li>
<li id="post_9400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what happened was I understood the Pythagorean theorem on one level, but not at that deeper level of gnosis. In DC, you always get briefed before something important. Make sure your freshmen get briefed. At Christendom, they brief you. They always tell you in advance when to stand up and shout Amen!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9401" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T22:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: I tell people to go to TAC as well, and it's wonderful what you did for those students.<br />Don't get me started on the Big Empty out there. The Nothingness grows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(quoting a certain, slightly rash tutor)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9403" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is not so much about cheering as about derision.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could do the death star too, honestly, but I didn't get called. I just failed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder, then, why we seem to disagree, Matthew, about how TAC might be better. Or perhaps we don't?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the Big Empty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9407" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T22:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We don't want to change the curriculum!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or the "orientation" of the school</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, that poem above you quote, the long one in heroic couplets. Could this form fly today, all other things being equal? The same quality, same form?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC has a knack for producing graduates who disagree on everything expect that TAC is awesome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9411" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T22:14:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nah, we agree about most things. That is why we have to find such weird stuff to argue about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God is awesome. Worship God, parents, nation, alma mater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9413" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The heroic never ageth, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whereas I would not have a problem with changing aspects of the curriculum, but not the overall orientation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9415" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's what I am told. Maybe only for a bestiary. Modern content makes it sound funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9416" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF is catching up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it may again, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So scrap the content and strive for universals, maybe then it would work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The bestiary is pedantic. But pedantry and playfullness go hand it hand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T22:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one was to get a TNET tattoo, what would it look like?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9421" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">404 lines in heroic couplet. Each in pairs of metaphor, two of enthymeme. Straight down the middle of your back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9422" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A DNA strand?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9423" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:17:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sit me down to slay the troll<br />Who lately down the thread doth stroll/<br />I bring the trusty mouse to bear,<br />The keyboard too is also there.<br />. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9424" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think TAC should just be up front about academia. If that's what you want, TAC won't get you there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Couplets with chiasmus are DNA. They are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread is too much with us...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9427" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gregorian Chant can heal damaged DNA. There's hope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9428" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHAT is going on? Someone is seriously messing with our heads. This is the most mysterious thing. I feel like someone invented a rabid Christendom grad just to lure us all into meaningless dispute with a shadow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9429" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">O for a thread of fire!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9430" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T22:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland, you are soooo behind the times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9431" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine all is shadow in the unfolding of the world spirit that is TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9432" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's true, I lost my place in the TNET. I lost my mind here too. But that had already started long ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9433" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Batter my heart three-threaded God!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9434" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are discussing how the use of NFP affects the number of tenure-track jobs for philosophy grads.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps, if you read long enough, your mind will reappear in the eternal return of the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks for the update!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9437" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T22:22:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Peregrine perished, and a kinder, gentler Scott Weinberg came to life in his stead.<br />We have traversed leagues since those days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found mine. It has become universal with the spreading of #gnosis through understanding Jormungandr's spirals in infinity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's chiasmus DNA in heroic couplet<br />Self-love but serves the virtuous mind to wake<br />As the small pebble stirs the peaceful lake;<br />The centre mov'd, a circle strait succeeds,<br />Another still, and still another spreads;<br />Friend, parent, neighbour, first it will embrace;<br />His country next; and next all human race;<br />Wide and more wide, th' o'erflowings of the mind<br />Take ev'ry creature in, of ev'ry kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are also preaching the Secret Teachings of Thomism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9441" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:23:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">As we approach 10K, I feel a presence I have not felt for a long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is PB/Scott Weinberg completely a fiction? Is fictitious PB/Scott Weinberg making sport of us all?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, a sister thread!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9444" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T22:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">These are days of peace. An era of the intellect. Discussion and friendly debate about educational reform and procreation. Secret societies abound.<br />But will it all hold together?<br />Could the days of darkness and gnashing of teeth return?<br />Are there unlocked doors behind which lie veritable bestiaries of soul?<br />We shall see, Catherine Ryland. We. Shall. See.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chiasmus is like DNA; DNA is like subject/predicate::subject/predicate, then splicing them in reverse manner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9446" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Big Angry doth sleep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">like a DNA chain; like what metaphor does. it's immitation, like identical twins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or a reflection in a pool</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9449" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:25:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hear the rumbles of a syllaphor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9450" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or perhaps it is a metagism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9451" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">nonono metagism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is it only doggeral? what is the gnostic connection, with MATH!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math stoops to conquer, purging metaphor of admixture of error</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the sweet muse of orthography abideth not with me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9455" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how does it connect?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not feel that I can help but post on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">please</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9458" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brownie points to Jeff for that Star Wars reference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">one plus one... a squared plus b squared... all a is b... Beatrice is a rose... DNA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9460" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Evening Hawk<br />From plane of light to plane, wings dipping through<br />Geometries and orchids that the sunset builds,<br />Out of the peak's black angularity of shadow, riding<br />The last tumultuous avalanche of<br />Light above pines and the guttural gorge,<br />The hawk comes.<br />His wing<br />Scythes down another day, his motion<br />Is that of the honed steel-edge, we hear<br />The crashless fall of stalks of Time.<br />The head of each stalk is heavy with the gold of our error.<br />Look! Look! he is climbing the last light<br />Who knows neither Time nor error, and under<br />Whose eye, unforgiving, the world, unforgiven, swings<br />Into shadow.<br />Long now,<br />The last thrush is still, the last bat<br />Now cruises in his sharp hieroglyphics.His wisdom<br />Is ancient, too, and immense.The star<br />Is steady, like Plato, over the mountain.<br />If there were no wind we might, we think, hear<br />The earth grind on its axis, or history<br />Drip in darkness like a leaking pipe in the cellar.<br />Robert Penn Warren</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sing, goddess of Gnosis...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey, it's the 21st century #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math is like the cystalline sphere upon whom attendeth the warring elements.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">RPW... stick whipping goldenrod. I spy chiasmus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9465" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No steel-clad arguments shall escape my lips unless they don the rosy trappings of metagism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T22:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Waiting for someone to juxtapose "wine dark seas" with gnosis...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, you just aren't saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9468" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will not serry terms to slay the troll, but will bedazzle his eyes with the wine dark seas of poetic gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">While the rosy-fingered dawn breaketh overhead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9470" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">During the catalog of the ships.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I shall never catch up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9472" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:31:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">his math struck through the hollow of the corselet, <br />sending his armor clattering about his syllophor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9473" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:32:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">and he spoke a megasism that no two men, such as men are today<br />could have syllophored</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do these below have the same thing in common, at the DNA level of gnosis?<br />one plus one equal two... "a" squared plus "b" squared... all a is b... Beatrice is a rose...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9475" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are all caught up in the transcendental unity of beauty, goodness and truth . . that is, imagination, will and intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">all but the last.... it is metagism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9477" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This can be seen in the formal structure of the syllaphor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, if that's true -- transcendental unity -- then they need to have something similar at their beginning, that is, at the DNA level of gnosis. Yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9479" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that I shall never see a Thread as lovely as a tree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Surely the DNA level of gnosis is beyond our petty categories of "yes" and "no" it is more like the self-same being-there of Dasein.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9481" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Scottgrine, breaker of metagisms, cast his syllophor<br />and the dark death danced about reason</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is beautiful and I have to go give Ellie a bath.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">dont dis on Heidegger<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9484" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beauty is the thread, the thread beauty,—that is all <br />Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that and don't diss on Heidegger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9486" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Approaching 10000 <br />As a midpoint <br />of infinity<br />Yet <br />Not without limit <br />Or any thread at all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question is, is "The Tempest" of the devil?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9488" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-30T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-30T22:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine.... the thread is Yggdrasil reaching its ashen branches into the metagismic aether</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exhibit (a):<br />Ye elves of hills, brooks, standing lakes and groves<br />And ye that on the sands with printless foot<br />Do chase the ebbing Neptune and do fly him<br />When he comes back. . . . By whose aid, weak masters<br />though ye be, I have bedimmed the noontide sun<br />Magic! the devil is in it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9490" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The quality of Threadness is not strained.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(215, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The rose is beautiful / Beatrice is a rose is DNA splitting and adding the genetics of beauty to Beatrice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mercy is a town in Australia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9493" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And necromancy: graves at my command have waked their sleepers, ope' and let them forth, by my so potent art.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The love their tea in Mercy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9495" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Koala-tea of Mercy is not strained.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course the Tempest is of the devile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9497" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Australia knoweth mercy not, but waiteth in every shadow with some new horror for the unsuspecting man-child.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel called to ask what Hamlet would do were he to approach 10K . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He would thrust it with a bare bodkin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9500" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To thread or not to thread. That is the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9501" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lear would divide the thread among his daughters</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9502" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reason, will, and appetite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9503" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-30T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-30T22:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matt Nolan and Peter Kwasniewski are here on the Book of Faces, Jeffrey Bond, in case you aren't already connected.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9504" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the thread claims yet more victims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your mercy knows no bounds!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9506" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blow, Thread, and crack your cheeks! Thread! blow! You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout Till you have drench'd our steeples, drown'd the cocks!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9507" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The quality of this thread is not strained;<br />It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven<br />Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;<br />It blesseth him that gives and him that takes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9508" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let us return to the clearing where the disclosedness of Dasein is Daseins own being-for-itself-for-the-sake-of-the-they.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9509" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T22:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do not go gentle into that long thread . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For it is the ever fixéd mark, that looks on storms and is never shaken</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a knitting party now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like knitting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife has been knitting me a scarf for about a year now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9514" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T22:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The little Cricket sings a song of hope,<br />A song of love, in God's eternal scope.<br />If little Crickets sing of things thereof,<br />Then how much more can we sign of His love?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9515" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T22:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being and Twine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9516" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, to be fair, Goyette and I basically waged war against each other for four semesters . . . I like to think that he is indocile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like Mr. Goyette. I do not like his utter acceptance of St. Augustine. (Well, of practically everything he said)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Augustine is where it's all at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9519" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-08-30T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-30T22:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Justus quidem tu es, Domine, si disputem tecum: verumtamen<br />justa loquar ad te: Quare via impiorum prosperatur? &c.<br />Thou are indeed just, Lord, if I contend<br />With thee; but, sir, so what I plead is just.<br />Why do sinners' ways prosper? and why must<br />Disappointment all I endeavour end?<br />Wert thou my enemy, O thou my friend,<br />How wouldst thou worse, I wonder, than thou dost<br />Defeat, thwart me? Oh, the sots and thralls of lust<br />Do in spare hours more thrive than I that spend,<br />Sir, life upon thy cause. See, banks and brakes<br />Now, leavèd how thick! lacèd they are again<br />With fretty chervil, look, and fresh wind shakes<br />Them; birds build--but not I build; no, but strain,<br />Time's eunuch, and breed not one work that wakes.<br />Mine, O thou lord of life, send my roots rain.<br />Father Gerard Manley Hopkins, S.J. (1844-1889)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9520" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-30T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-30T22:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah.... I think I had the same argument with Goyette about Augustine that I had with Big Angry earlier in the Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I didn't have Goyette for Augustine, I had Paietta</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9522" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T22:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Augustine was basically the best Thomist before Thomas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9523" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">With apologies to Matthew Arnold . . . <br />The web is calm tonight.<br />The thread is full, the moon lies fair<br />Upon the straits; on the French coast the light<br />Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand,<br />Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.<br />Come to the window, sweet is the night-air!<br />Only, from the long line of spray<br />Where the sea meets the moon-blanched land,<br />Listen! you hear the grating roar<br />Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,<br />At their return, up the high strand,<br />Begin, and cease, and then again begin,<br />With tremulous cadence slow, and bring<br />The eternal note of sadness in.<br />Sophocles long ago<br />Heard it on the Ægean, and it brought<br />Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow<br />Of human misery; we<br />Find also in the sound a thought,<br />Hearing it by this distant northern sea.<br />The Eternal Thread<br />Was once, too, at the full, and round earth’s shore<br />Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.<br />But now I only hear<br />Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,<br />Retreating, to the breath<br />Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear<br />And naked shingles of the web.<br />Ah, love, let us be true<br />To one another! for the thread, which seems<br />To lie before us like a land of dreams,<br />So various, so beautiful, so new,<br />Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,<br />Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;<br />And we are here as on a darkling plain<br />Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,<br />Where ignorant armies clash by night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9524" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />Marke but this flea, and marke in this,<br />How little that which thou deny’st me is;<br />It suck’d me first, and now sucks thee,<br />And in this flea, our two bloods mingled bee.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Donne!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9526" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's all one, this play is done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T23:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never did quite understand your love of Goyette, Samantha. Mark Clark, on the other hand, there was a tutor!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was being operative in more ways than one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The syllogism is DNA, too; breaking two threads<br />Knitting one new.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I bump into Mr. Clark frequently at CUA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I need to call/write him sometime.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When that I was and a little tiny boy,<br />With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,<br />A foolish thing was but a toy,<br />For the rain it raineth every day.<br />But when I came to man’s estate,<br />With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,<br />’Gainst knaves and thieves men shut their gate,<br />For the rain it raineth every day.<br />But when I came, alas! to wive,<br />With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,<br />By swaggering could I never thrive,<br />For the rain it raineth every day.<br />But when I came unto my beds,<br />With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,<br />With toss-pots still had drunken heads,<br />For the rain it raineth every day.<br />A great while ago the world begun,<br />With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,<br />But that’s all one, our play is done,<br />And we’ll strive to please you every day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. John's has a rolling sabbatical, where ever 9 years or so, each tutor gets a sabbatical year. I've always thought this would be a good idea at TAC, as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9535" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Twelfth night should be put out to pasture for several years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Except maybe for the clown.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">263</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Every other Shakespeare event I run into is Twelfth Night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9539" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-30T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-30T23:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Better than a Midsummer Night's Dream.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">People should stretch their imaginations a little bit and do Comedy of Errors or As You Like It or Alls Well That Ends Well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a fondness for Much Ado About Nothing myself. I actually had a part in The Merchant of Venice while at TAC. That was a blast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Much Ado is borderline at the moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a good play, but just about played out for the nonce.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, in Comedy of errors you have a confusion among a pair of twins with lots of beatings to boot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I was in Vancouver, at Twelfth Night, at the Arts Club on Granville Island, on my way to Europe, and was talking to the clown after the performance, then met this actor and actress from Ireland who invited me to their place the following weekend where we said the Rosary with their brothers and sisters and mom and dad, and that's how I became Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, agreed, but I think it's a brilliant play.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think my favorite part of the Merchant of Venice was chewing out my classmate for losing his wedding ring. I really got to go off on him. Fun times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-30T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-30T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is no water but only Thread <br />Thread and no water and the sandy road <br />The road winding above among the mountains <br />Which are mountains of Thread without water <br />If there were water we should stop and drink<br />Amongst the Thread one cannot stop or think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard to find a good play these days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moliere generally pleases</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9551" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:22:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread goes ever on and on<br />Down from the door where it began.<br />Now far ahead the Thread has gone,<br />And I must follow, if I can,<br />Pursuing it with eager feet,<br />Until it joins some larger way<br />Where many paths and errands meet.<br />And whither then? I cannot say”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9552" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Not all Threads that wander are lost."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9553" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T11:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go to now, ye threadmakers, make trial that ye all may know. Fasten ye a thread of gold from Zuckerberg, and all ye facebookers lay hold thereof; yet could ye not drag from heaven to earth Matthew J. Peterson, counselor supreme, not though ye toiled sore. But once he likewise were minded to draw with all his heart, then should he draw you up with very earth and sea withal. Thereafter would he bind the thread about a pinnacle of Olympus, and so should all those things be hung in air. By so much is he beyond gods and beyond men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goldsmith, "she stoops to conquer" is a good one too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are strangers and threadbearers...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Better Thread, than Red.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9557" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"We are the thread-makers and we are the weavers of threads."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sing of Thread-makers, and a man of Thread!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9559" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Turning and turning in the widening gyre<br />The falcon cannot hear the falconer;<br />Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;<br />The NeverEnding Thread is loosed upon the world,<br />The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere<br />The ceremony of innocence is drowned;<br />The best lack all conviction, while the worst<br />Are full of passionate intensity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A rolling stone gathers no thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9562" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Write ye long threads while ye may,<br />Old Time is still a-flying;<br />And this same Thread that never ends today<br />Tomorrow will be dying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9563" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">SING, O Muse, of the NeverEnding Thread!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I may be too eager for this thread to reach 10,000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O, then, I see Queen Mab hath been with you.<br />She is the fairies' midwife, and she comes<br />In shape no bigger than an agate-stone<br />On the fore-finger of an alderman,<br />Drawn with a team of little atomies<br />Athwart men's noses as they lie asleep;<br />Her wagon-spokes made of long spiders' legs,<br />The cover of the wings of grasshoppers,<br />The traces of the smallest spider's web,<br />The collars of the moonshine's watery beams,<br />Her whip of cricket's bone, the lash of threads!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would not take a thread or a sandal or anything that is yours, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ (Genesis 14: 23)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">warfare</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9571" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">at</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">war</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson has turned you all into . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...crazy people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">threadbugs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, though, is free or open verse the only form of poetry that would work today?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And what's the connection between math, and poetry, and faith and reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9581" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T23:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.amazon.com/Poetry-Mathematics.../dp/B000WQQYQQ<br />Poetry and Mathematics<br />A radical reform of teaching and learning in a small province of the modern academy<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a gnosis central command, like NorthComm, that regulates how explicit these connections may become?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9583" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T23:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . .no it just reminds me of Penelope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faithful, patient, intelligent Penelope?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Her completed shroud shone like the sun or the moon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9586" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T23:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">weaving</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9587" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and unweaving</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9588" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">like nature on the cosmic loom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9589" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, weaving, and unweaving, like DNA. The thread of DNA. Unpicking and stitching anew.<br />Does this make any sense?<br />http://theamericanscholar.org/a-mindful-beauty/#.VAKZHdddWSo<br />The American Scholar: A Mindful Beauty - Joel E. Cohen<br />What poetry and applied mathematics have in common<br />THEAMERICANSCHOLAR.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-30T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-30T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is the web you weave? and its like the lyre and the weaving together</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is math like weaving too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the Universe (Nature) like weaving, and unweaving?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re. Augustine, Catherine Ryland, I think what a lot of people miss in his stuff on predestination is that he's very focused on the heresy of the day: Pelagianism. If there had been a stronger Stoic contingent in his day, I think what he wrote would have sounded more like what the Pelagians say.<br />That, combined with a human affinity for Pelagianism makes it hard to understand his stuff on predestination correctly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9594" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things coming to be and things passing away. Each being a union of the vertical and horizontal threads . . . the cross at the heart of all things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matter and form. Like weaving. That's it. Creation. Immitation. Things similar in kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas is a lot gnarlier than Augustine on the predestination question; vide RGL on the matter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does the Sacred Monster get T right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think so</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How people know, through likeness, extracted forms, phantasms, forms informing the soul; mathematical equations imitating nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9600" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Note that Odysseus imitates this weaving when he lashes together the mast and keel in order to preserve himself after Zeus destroys his ship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9601" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-08-30T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-08-30T23:46:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geez, I go to a picnic for a few hours and come back to find everyone drunk and PB re-incarnated as a Pythagorean mystic. What is going ON?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9602" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I went to counseling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9603" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">frontal lobotomy was the prescription.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The word "mast" and the word "loom" are the same in Greek.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9605" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please, no one post the video of Spock playing the lyre.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9606" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bringing to mind that poignant apothegm: I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9607" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd rather have a bottle in front 'o me, than a frontal lobotomy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see you were classically educated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Scott's viewing pleasure:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S5VYmc8qhg<br />Star Trek Original Series TOS Spock Vulcan Lute Lyre Prop Replica<br />This prop replica lute is an exact duplicate of the screen...<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />August 30 at 11:49pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward, uncalled for!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9611" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T23:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I went whiskey tasting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9612" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-30T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-30T23:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">next you'll inflict his Bilbo song on us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was it a whiskered whiskey tasting?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9614" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dialectic is an unknitting of the thread, and knitting anew. It undoes predications, then reconnects beads, in scientific syllogisms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">=]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">]\/p[;'k9bv<br />|"_</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks Spock, I've lost the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9618" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My son doth join us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9619" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T23:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott that sounds like music in the aveum</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9620" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:53:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a proposal for Matthew J. Peterson. After we reach 10,000 comments, I think Thread Awards should be given. Let me suggest a few categories, and hopefully all of you will add others.<br />(1) Best insult.<br />(2) Most humorous.<br />(3) Most high fantastical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T23:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Pere left</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marina Shea" data-date="2014-08-30T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marina Shea at 2014-08-30T23:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He won't see his awards</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">With varying Vanities, from ev'ry Part,<br />They shift the moving Toyshop of their Heart;<br />Where Wigs with Wigs, with Sword-knots Sword-knots strive,<br />Beaus banish Beaus, and Coaches Coaches drive.<br />This erring Mortals Levity may call,<br />Oh blind to Truth! the Thread contrives it all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My son just got his first Facebook "like"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can I have an honorary degree from TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">at the tender age of 16 months.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">First you must complete THE ORDEAL.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Congratulations!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Welcome, son of Ed, to the Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-30T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-30T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the value of an honorary degree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9631" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_9632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-30T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(228, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-30T23:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(4) Best adaptation of a classic poem.<br />(5) Best image<br />(6) Best tragical/historical/comical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(215, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(7) best original composition</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Enthymeme unweaves temptation, and predicates the heart on universal good. Metaphor unweaves the banal, and predicates the imagination on beauty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope that's not a salt-rimmed glass he's holding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9636" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />Child! do not throw this book about;<br />Refrain from the unholy pleasure<br />Of cutting all the pictures out!<br />Preserve it as your chiefest treasure.<br />Child, have you never heard it said<br />That you are heir to all the ages?<br />Why, then, your hands were never made<br />To tear these beautiful thick pages!<br />Your little hands were made to take<br />The better things and leave the worse ones.<br />They also may be used to shake<br />The Massive Paws of Elder Persons.<br />And when your prayers complete the day,<br />Darling, your little tiny hands<br />Were also made, I think, to pray<br />For men that lose their fairylands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I need to teach my son that poem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-30T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-30T23:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's just because I was intellectually unable to get a real one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-30T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-30T23:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, now I've seen it all - Spock made an entrance on this thread? Next thing you know, it'll be Chewbacca.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-30T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-30T23:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Godwin's law has yet to be fulfilled</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_9642" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T00:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_9643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is Godwin's law?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T00:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTW2ZSjG5N0<br />The Producers (1968) trailer<br />Producers Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom make money by producing a sure-fire flop. Mel Brooks' directorial debut!<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I gotta cardboard belt, Bloom!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's the funniest line in movie history!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />I CALL you bad, my little child,<br />Upon the title page,<br />Because a manner rude and wild<br />Is common at your age.<br />The Moral of this priceless work<br />(If rightly understood)<br />Will make you--from a little Turk--<br />Unnaturally good.<br />Do not as evil children do,<br />Who on the slightest grounds<br />Will imitate the Kangaroo,<br />With wild unmeaning bounds:<br />Do not as children badly bred,<br />Who eat like little Hogs,<br />And when they have to go to bed<br />Will whine like Puppy Dogs:<br />Who take their manners from the Ape,<br />Their habits from the Bear,<br />Indulge the loud unseemly jape,<br />And never brush their hair.<br />But so control your actions that<br />Your friends may all repeat.<br />'This child is dainty as the Cat,<br />And as the Owl discreet.'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beloc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not a real bestiary, but genius no less.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you ever seen The Palm Beach Story by Preston Sturges? It may have some lines that are even funnier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but I will now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T00:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />The Microbe is so very small<br />You cannot make him out at all,<br />But many sanguine people hope<br />To see him through a microscope.<br />His jointed tongue that lies beneath<br />A hundred curious rows of teeth;<br />His seven tufted tails with lots<br />Of lovely pink and purple spots,<br />On each of which a pattern stands,<br />Composed of forty separate bands;<br />His eyebrows of a tender green;<br />All these have never yet been seen--<br />But Scientists, who ought to know,<br />Assure us that they must be so. . . .<br />Oh! let us never, never doubt<br />What nobody is sure about!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Bringing up Baby" has to be in the running as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9655" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T00:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, if we're discussing funny movies - 'Arsenic and Old Lace' has to make an appearance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9656" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Bear can be a rough and tumble beast,<br />Who doesn’t care for manners, in the least.<br />Practice kindness, and embrace restraint,<br />And never mock a prophet or a saint!<br />***<br />As he was walking along the road, some boys came<br />out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here,<br />baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned<br />around, looked at them and called down a curse on<br />them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came<br />out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.<br />(2 Kings 2: 23-25)<br />For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints.<br />(Psalm 32: 28)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Paul Blart: Mall Cop -- funniest movie of the 21st century so far, imho</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My sister named her psycho cat Mortimer Brewster, despite the fact that the cat turned out to be female.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Preston Sturges again: "The Sin of Harold Diddlebock"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">his</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">made</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fugitive</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">was</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">journey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">from</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">coasts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Troy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">far</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Italy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lavinian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">shores</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Across</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lands</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">waters</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">was</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">battered</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">beneath</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">violence</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9697" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">gods</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9701" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">savage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Juno's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">eternal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">anger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">many</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9707" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arma virumque cano</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sufferings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">were</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">his</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">war</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">until</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">brought</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">city</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">into</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">being</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and carried in his gods</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to Latium</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">troiam qui primum ab oris</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9723" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T00:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">fatam profugus, . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mel Gibson's character recites these lines near the beginning of "The Man Without a Face"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9725" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tot volvere casus . . . thats me </p>
</li>
<li id="post_9726" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"much buffeted" is better than "battered"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9727" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-08-31T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-08-31T00:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Article. IV.<br />Section. 1.<br />Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.<br />Section. 2.<br />The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.<br />A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.<br />No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.<br />Section. 3.<br />New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.<br />The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.<br />Section. 4.<br />The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fagles FTW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9729" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Virgil appears, then Dante cannot be far behind. After that, the thread culminates with Shakespeare?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Forgive the Swan for its assertive trend,<br />It has a home and family to defend.<br />Squawk if you must; use poetry or charm,<br />But always keep the ones you love from harm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The ugly duckling hath become a swan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9732" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chesterton said Dante and Shakespeare divide the world between them. There is no third.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then went down to the ship,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Set keel to breakers, forth on the godly seas, and</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We set up mast and sail on that swart ship,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9736" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-31T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-31T00:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread was better when it discussed a topic and sought to find answers or at least challenged a question or statement which was posited as truth, but it has fallen to post count bumping. Now it is just an auditorium of 5th grade kids attempting to have the last clap of an applause</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9737" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-08-31T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-08-31T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I actually was here for what was said not how much was said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yawn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9741" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How strange to prefer quality to quantity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well propose a question</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9743" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"what is worse, being a blowhard or being frivolous?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9744" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">discussion will return</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Tis not too late to seek a newer world</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here are some random questions I would like to discuss:<br />What is the greatest fine art?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Hemmingway a great writer?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greatest living philosopher?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greatest living novelist...composer...scientist...take your pick</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Concerning Hemmingway, I think "The Short and Happy Life of Francis Macomber" may qualify as a great short story. After that, I'm not much of a fan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">2 no<br />3 aquinas </p>
</li>
<li id="post_9752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was even as a novelist a great short story writer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is pietas in the Aeneid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pius Aeneas: doing the will of Jupiter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Founding the eternal city</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Following his heart (j/k!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there really any greater warrior than Aeneas?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9758" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Christ who vanquished death</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but he doesnt, does he?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Excellent!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ie aeneas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus the judo master who appears defeated but then gains the victory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how does he?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see now John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aeneas or Jesus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[my posts are delayed]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Festina lente</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9769" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aeneas does not personally overcome death, but his founding of Rome, the city that incarnates the eternal rule of Jupiter, is an amazing anticipation of Christ's victory over death and the subsequent role that Rome would play in that great victory. I marvel at Virgil's insight that Rome's rule was to be eternal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T00:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But how does Aeneas found Rome?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T00:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He plants his sword in the body of Turnus. The Latin for "plant" and "found" is the same, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">condo, condere</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sub pectore condit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then what is the meaning of that? I took it quite other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9775" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have always loved Homer more than Virgil, but I am awed by Virgil's presentiment of our desire that what is eternal be incarnated in the world. For Homer, the eternal realm of Olympus and the world of men remain separate realms. For Virgil, the eternal and the here and now come together forever in Rome. While Virgil seems to have viewed this politically, nevertheless he was right beyond his wildest dreams.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Turnus is the new Achilles who must be destroyed by the new Hector once the remnant of Troy has fulfilled the will of Jupiter. First Greece conquered Troy, but ultimately Troy (Rome) conquers Greece.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sub pectore?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well it seems i have it all upside down. Have to get off my head here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The founding act. Why in the chest? I don't know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But as I recall, doesn't Aeneas become righteously angry when he sees the belt on Turnus which depicts the destruction of Troy by Achilles' son? The belt represents the order of civilized life which Rome will now establish on earth for all nations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To tell the truth i am horrified by what i see in the Aeneid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">righteous anger or revenge. And what is depicted is not order though it is beautifully done, beautiful but horrifying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(56, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T01:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the ending shocking just to us moderns? Was it intended to be abrupt?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9785" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The key, I think, is the belt of Pallas which depicts the right order of political life. Aeneas' anger when he sees the belt moves him to plant (found) the sword which brings the old world to an end and establishes the new order according to Jupiter's will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What god can now unfold for me in song</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But as to the war, i see that Aeneas brings destruction upon the Saturnial peace of Latinus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but i will have to look at it anew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9789" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What god can now unfold for me in song<br />all the bitterness and butchery<br />and deaths of chieftains--driven now by Turnus,<br />now by the Trojan hero, each in turn<br />throughout that field? O Jupiter, was it<br />your will that nations destined to eternal<br />peace should have clashed in such tremendous turmoil?<br />I think Virgil's answer is "yes".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What appears on the belt of Pallas, mentioned in Book X at line 683, is first described in Book II, line 675. Check it out and see what you think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but what possible happiness for Lavinia and their marriage?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does not seem to be about personal happiness (unlike Odysseus' and Penelope's reunion in Homer). Were it about personal happiness, Aeneas would never have left Dido. He was helping her to build up the city of Carthage, Rome's mortal enemy (!), when Jupiter ordered him to leave and fulfill his fate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There we see Aeneas' piety insofar as he subordinates his will to that of Jupiter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9794" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T01:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. the common good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9795" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Divine Providence</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I never thought I'd see this or be there for it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guess yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9798" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T01:40:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">TEN THOUSAND "at"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9799" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jonathan Monnereau" data-date="2014-08-31T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jonathan Monnereau at 2014-08-31T01:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9800" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Earlier Aeneas carried his father on his back and held his son by his hand--past, present and future united--when he left Troy to begin his journey to found Rome. Piety: that species of the virtue of justice which demands special reverence toward God the Father, the patria, and parents, each of which gives the gift of life and therefore can never be repaid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9801" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-08-31T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-08-31T01:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cheers everyone!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T01:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will have to look at it in the morning but deka myria thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9803" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T01:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">'T is not too late to seek a newer world.<br />Push off, and sitting well in order smite<br />The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds<br />To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths<br />Of all the western stars, until I die.<br />It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:<br />It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,<br />And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.<br />Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'<br />We are not now that strength which in old days<br />Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;<br />One equal temper of heroic hearts,<br />Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will<br />To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T01:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YAY, congratulations on your diligence and hard work. The Never Ending Thread is amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T01:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jonathan Monnereau: How are you NOW just getting involved in this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9806" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T02:07:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">My SAT scores were miserable; TAC only accepted me out of loyalty to my parents. But I think intelligence is overrated anyways. I have been young and am now old, and never have I seen any evidence that more intelligent people are more happy. Same with worldly success. Plus: I think my dining room is better than that of the smart people who went to prestigious schools and made it big in the world:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T02:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund: where is that? It's lovely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9808" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T02:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also: I agree with Matthew up to a point on TAC tutors needing a little more fresh air. I think they should definitely get sabbaticals ever seven years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9809" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T02:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's my monastery: Stift Heiligenkreuz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9810" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T02:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My graduate school was pretty lovely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I used to dorm in what was an old cloister. My bedroom was literally 6 steps away from an old Gothic chapel. It was really one of the most beautiful dorms ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9812" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T02:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund is one of the most erudite people I have ever met, and one of the happiest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T02:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am pleased to make your acquaintance, Pater Edmund - your brother was in my class at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9814" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T02:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only problem with your dining room, Pater Edmund is the very unappetizing exhortation, "Ad mensam ut ad crucem," written on the ceiling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T02:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_9816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-31T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-31T02:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where did you go to graduate school Megan?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-31T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-31T02:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are making me want to be a monk Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T02:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dominican University right outside of Chicago. Lovely, lovely campus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T02:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I ended up rooming in the same place where I had my first holy Communion - Fr. John Hardon, SJ had given It to me in that very Chapel. Providential how I ended up there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9820" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T02:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T02:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Crazy growth while I was at a wedding....<br />Probably someone else already stated this, oh 2000 comments ago, but I am a pedant.<br />Wendy Irene, no, no no.<br />Just cause is not grave cause. Any first semester canon law or moral theology student knows they are distinct concepts. If even a pope used them interchangeably, then he is butchering language and failing to say much at all, and since he would know better, he is being terrible. More likely, as different hands craft papal documents and speeches, the contradiction of just cause versus grave cause was because of one of those ghostwriters.<br />A just cause, e.g., if any reasonable inconvenience arises. A grave cause means a grave inconvenience, a physical or moral impossibility (by moral I do not mean only possible with sin, but impossible to do within reasonable means)<br />A just cause basically means "is it rational" I repeat, these terms are not made up just for NFP, and we would be fools to gut out the meaning of terms and pretend they mean other things just because NFP<br />These terms have a long history and a specific meaning in that history. They are not equivalent.<br />E.g., for a grave cause I may miss Mass. IOW, whenever it is physically or morally impossible to go. For a just cause I need not make up a lesser part of Mass I missed (say I came in at the Epistle). I do not need to assert moral impossibility, I can simply assert a rational reason, such as I am meeting extended family for breakfast and cannot hang around for the next Mass to make up that part. <br />Or, e.g., a priest may be granted excardination for any just cause. A bishop cannot refuse except for grave cause.<br />What this means is that a priest can request to leave the LA archdiocese and go to Cheyenne. He gets the approval of Cheyenne, and then asks +Gomez. His reason, perhaps, is traffic bothers him excessively and he needs clean air. That is a just cause. Not a high standard there. +Gomez says no, I want you to remain as you are popular with your congregation and a good fit. Wel the priest would then appeal and he would win against Gomez. That the priest is a good fit, and the bishop wants him to remain is rational, it is a "just cause" but not a grave cause. A grave cause might be "I am sorry but you are the only priest that speaks Urdu and we need an Urdu speaking priest" or if there is an extreme shortage of priests and the removal of this one would significantly affect the diocese, etc.<br />See the difference? I know that sloppy papal ghostwriters have used both. I don't care. They are already imbued with meaning, they are not ad hoc terms. The best distinction, really, is that spacing children requires only a just cause, avoiding children a grave cause.<br />Or else we have a simple contradiction. But John Paul II used the terms properly. Yes I know that Chris West and others speak differently because they have never bothered studying the tradition and learning what terms actually mean. But you will see that JPII, at least, when he uses just cause is always referring to spacing. When grave cause is used, it is used for avoidance of pregnancy. Either these are different, or frankly we have to reject John Paul II, as I dang well know that Pius XII used the terms correctly and as traditionally employed, and I know JPII sometimes takes a word with an already established meaning and uses it differently (the word "election" which he conflates with calling in on encyclical)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9821" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T02:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T02:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, the best Thomist before St. Thomas was St. Severinus Boethius...duh!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T02:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wendy Irene, you should see this^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T02:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T02:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Addendum: I don't mean reject JPII, but reject his use of terms, i.e. fly back to those using them in the proper sense. I think the distinction of mere spacing from avoidance works for understand these terms being used properly. If I am wrong, then I fall back to grave cause, not just cause.<br />Proportionality is important, after all a rational reason for one thing is not for another. But it only gives a starting point, just says take that to rational, grave says take that to gravely inconvenient not to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T02:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, can you give me a summary of the positions about which you are discussing with Wendy Irene? <br />I apparently missed a lot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T02:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please and thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9826" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T02:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T02:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think this thread needs periodic synopses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9827" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T02:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Impossible. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_9828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T02:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't worry, too much, though. The Thread periodically re-manifests certain dynamics of its Threadness, through various prophets etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9829" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-31T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-31T03:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do threads like this not happen in more reasonable places like the TAC Alumni page (which would be searchable)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T03:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread springs forth where it wills.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9831" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T03:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well it was 11 hour ago. She essentially said that since it was a major matter, the "suspension of the ordinary activity" or something like that, then, since cause is proportional, this is weighty enough that any just cause will also be grave.<br />So, to be clear, she is not the laxist here. But I do think that, whatever the proportionality, the basic meanings are distinct and it would be just very bad and almost purposely misleading to ever use the term "just cause" if you also meant grave, as if those terms normally could mean the same thing. And likewise I think the cause needed, while still serious (because of proportionality) for spacing is still different in kind than avoiding children. IOW, the decision to have no more children, or to set a cap, seems to me to require a greater burden then, hey I just gave two births in 11 months apart and physically need to recover.<br />I tend, as I did in a much earlier comment, to just use "serious" when speaking of NFP...it avoids the controversy, and yes there is a controversy....many NFP promoters harp on just cause and argue about NFP is necessary for all marriages and is the 8th sacrament, and will improve communication. And if it doesn't that if because you are defective...yeah those people exist, and in spades....and it also underscores that any use for the sake of doing the horizontal tango without producing babies requires something more than a slight reason.<br />I imagine she and I are not disagreeing all that substantially. And her point is very valid that the proportionality makes even a just cause more serious. But I do think the proper terms are important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9832" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T03:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T03:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I am not sure I see it as a suspension of any aspect of the marital vocation a she put it. Rather, when used rightly, isn't it in furtherance of the ends of that vocation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T03:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T03:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is still a TAC alumni page?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-31T03:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-31T03:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, it is secret and we have to let you in. https://www.facebook.com/groups/2200569229/?fref=ts<br />Thomas Aquinas College Alumni<br />312 Members<br />Joined</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-31T03:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-31T03:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is also an official one: Thomas Aquinas College Alumni Association</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-31T03:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-31T03:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the first one is the one where any chatting might happen (if it did)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T03:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I thought we were referring to an older, pre-Facebook era site that I knew of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9838" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-08-31T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-31T03:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah -- that discussion site might still exist. I haven't checked in a long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, I am back to the horror of what appearing to be spamming by one Weinberg.....That was horrifyin...thankfully, since not Peregrine, I could block....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T08:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T08:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For five hours, now, The Neverending Thread has slept.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mornin'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9842" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Soooo... where were we?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9843" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey Pater Edmund-- I read your thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T08:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Daisy<br />In the morning, open yawning.<br />In the evening, close your awning.<br />Tell me dear, I have forgot,<br />Do you love or love me not?<br />Will the horse and calf be gone,<br />Will the rain chase them away,<br />Will you ask your leprechaun,<br />And pixies out to play?<br />Will they speak, before they go.<br />If you love me, let me know?<br />If they implore you love me not,<br />Again once more I have forgot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9845" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng-- Hemmingway is not a great writer. Caleb is the greatest living philosopher (or he will be). Greatest living novelist is Marilynne Robinson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T08:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like your conviction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9847" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hemmingway was a great journalist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a really, really good writer of short stories</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9850" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If math is the core language of nature, then how come the most important things in life and being cannot be quantified by math. For example, the way several of the Native American Tribes converted from belief in a Great Spirit to Catholicism, and how they maintain their culture, does not translate into the language of math. This being the case, why is math so central at TAC? Why is it so central to the proposal, when the proposal seeks to restore true freedom to academia? Is math not so central to academia? If it is not, maybe it is good there's no connection between TAC and modern academia. Just askin.<br />I agree, Hemmingway was not a great writer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the idea of Thread Awards. Where are we on nominations?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9852" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T08:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I deserve one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9853" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T08:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I've earned one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9854" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T08:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">On that we can all agree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9855" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T08:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But in lieu of an award, send donations to the TNET Foundation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(1) Best insult.<br />(2) Most humorous.<br />(3) Most high fantastical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(228, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">4) Best adaptation of a classic poem.<br />(5) Best image<br />(6) Best tragical/historical/comical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would also suggest 7) biggest freak-out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9859" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and nominate Isak Benedict.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T09:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where should I start with Robinson Samantha? I haven't read a single novel of hers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There aren't many. Just read Gilead, then Home, then if you would like something beautifully creepy, Housekeeping</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T09:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best feigned outrage?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz one question I have for you is with regard to gravity in liturgical abuses... Example I'm wondering about: There are a lot of polka masses in my area...I find them totally gauche and of course there is no basis for them, but how gravely wrong are they? I have a hard time thinking about it because it makes me mad to think about it haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T09:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best perceived insult award... best prank... best ad hoc prank... best one liner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are mathematicals? How do they exist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T09:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best one-liner from a fictitious persona: throw me Isak. If anyone can find that needle in this haystack, I will send them a free book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9867" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T09:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha well alright I just bought Gilead this fine Sunday morning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T09:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know. What are mathematicals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9869" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You won't regret it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things which are math?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9871" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm so pleased!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would a Best Perceived Insult be?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9873" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I think I'm a solid contender for best feigned outrage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9874" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Numbers are lines.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe one should answer the question about what mathematical beings are before, <br />1. Calling them the language of nature<br />2. Figuring out why it is important in TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9876" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If numbers aren't lines, then what are they? Hmmmm?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9877" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ I can hear Molly Gustin, now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9878" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's basically all I remember from senior math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, even that would still leave us with the question, "What are lines, and how do they exist."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9880" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T09:30:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't you remember all those literalist people squinting with dismay as they tried to picture non-Euclidean geometry, and laughing on the inside? (I lied laughing on the outside)<br />Or was that just me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9881" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was one of those literalist people. ::::feigned outrage:::::</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T09:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia for best insult / humor. And i think he competes with himself on that. He calls it "amusing himself".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9883" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T09:39:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought my senior section was going to lynch me first semester when Molly told me in class, "you don't have to take the final Mr. Baytee, you already know everything"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9884" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T09:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I got to sleep in that day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9885" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T09:45:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was at a conference last summer at which Marilynne Robinson spoke, but I was too shy to introduce myself to her. She has a new book coming out soon: http://amzn.com/0374187614<br />Lila: A Novel<br />A new American classic from the Pulitzer Prize–winning author of Gilead and HousekeepingMarilynne Robinson,...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9886" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:45:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Molly said something similar to me. It has helpful that in her mind, myself, Joel HF and another friend, Joe Kenney, were all indistinguishable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9887" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our merits multiplied.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund thank you for this excellent news!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9890" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I went to a lecture of hers once and got my copy of Home autographed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9891" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:49:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then I babbled about how much I was looking forward to another novel from her, but that she should take her time, but not too much time. It was embarrassing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Gustin likewise could not tell the difference between me and Monica Murphy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9893" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">She also claimed that it was impossible for anyone to do so because we were in fact identical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9894" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have never read this novelist, I am afraid I have not made it into the 21st century with my literary pursuits. I take it she comes highly recommended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9895" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T09:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, Molly Gustin was probably not wholly on top of her game when we were there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9896" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T09:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pulitzer for Gilead</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, that is an understatement, sadly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9898" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T09:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it's about Ames' wife! This is so exciting!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T09:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">she wasn't on top of her game in the late 90s</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9900" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T10:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you somehow happened to be on her good side, though, she was great fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9901" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T10:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">She liked me because of my ancestry, but sadly I never had her in class. I did have her on my defense panel though. She thought my thesis was silly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9902" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T10:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, she hadn't *totally* lost it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9903" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T10:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">: )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9904" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T10:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ouch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-31T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-31T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It looks as if this particular incarnation of the Thread is coming to a slow and painful end. May it rise from the ashes in a form more powerful than we can possibly imagine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9906" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-08-31T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-08-31T10:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, Pater, I met your father this weekend. I am excited to study under him this year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thread just wakes up slowly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Enlighten us ignorant ones. Why are mathematicals essential to peace among the nations, salvation and the restoration of genuine academic freedom; and why has the rest of humanity missed this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Forget it Daniel. I'm happy believing that you are just too intellectually advanced for someone like me to ever grasp what you are saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Too bad, I was in the middle of a response.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll just take in on faith that you have solved the problem. Thanks for your service to humanity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truthfully, I don't have answers to all the questions I proposed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least not answers that I would call anything more than suppositions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9914" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T10:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, either do I. We are just threadworn soujourners...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^With that I can heartily agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9916" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And sorry for my temporary lapse into troll-dom. At least you are genuinely trying to shed light.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that, my friend, is priceless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, there have been many instances of insincere questions, so I don't blame you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, truly, in my limited experience, TAC alum are the only ones asking the central question in light of Faith? The rest of the academic world has forgotten.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9920" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T11:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Answers all questions: http://www.scribd.com/.../Klein-Greek-Mathematical...<br />Klein - Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origin of Algebra<br />Klein - Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origin of...<br />SCRIBD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9921" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T11:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are separated souls persons?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9922" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T11:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Commentary on Klein: http://books.google.at/books?id=-e-Mn50Q0soC&lpg=PP1...<br />The Origin of the Logic of Symbolic Mathematics<br />Burt C. Hopkins presents the first in-depth study of the...<br />BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9924" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A person is an individual substance of a rational nature, but a separated soul is not a substance, <br />Therefore, etc. Q.E.D.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then why are you praying to them Daniel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9926" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of piety.^ Also, I have no problems acknowledging that separated souls are capable of intersession.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or many other activities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then they're pretty much persons</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9929" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Separated souls are still individuated secundum quid, through their order to "this matter."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9930" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T11:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">right that's Thomas' very weird save; but in that case, you might as well call them persons, even with the proleptic instantiation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9931" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We often imagine them thus. And I would certainly not deny that to the little old lady in the pew. But, properly, metaphysically and theologically, that is incorrect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9932" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T11:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Klein is clutch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because of the above argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a problem more or less peculiar to Thomas; other Scholastics dont fall into it as much</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, I suppose if one thought being a substance accidental to being a person and that being in a relation of knowing and loving is essential, then I suppose one would call them persons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this^^ the sort of thing you have in mind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T11:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just saying other scholastics often inflect "substance" differently; Thomas' save is unusual, and dictated by his read of Aristotle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T11:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as you know Thomas' account works by something almost like miracle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9939" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Molly's mind was largely absent by the time I was there, absent gazing upon the forms themselves. When she did descend periodically, it was either to shed the reflected light of the radiance of the forms, or to tell someone that they were, and I quote "just stupid as hell!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">From a magisterial angle: Is it fair to say that the Church takes Thomas' when it describes the soul as forma corporis? With this definition, it seems to me that it follows immediately that the soul is a principle of substance; not a substance itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9941" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only had her for music, where she was more consistently good and had relatively few lapses. I hear senior math was a bit hit or miss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and when you yourself say "they" or "it", if there's no substantiality there at all, what is happening grammatically? And the Church can describe the soul as forma corporis without committing to your conclusion, since it doesn't commit to the Thomistic middle term there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Escalante--what are the other scholastic options? My knowledge of scholasticism outside of Thomas is virtually non-existent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Her senior math, at the end, was more miss than hit, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9945" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I've heard, and how very, very sad. I had the pleasure of having Richard for senior math, and it was an unmitigated delight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I admit the case is hard, and not very clean. But if you will permit a perhaps rather fanciful argument from fittingness: So, Thomas holds that the separated soul is only a quasi substance. It is a principle of substance and is still referred to "this matter." Thomas even says in one of his commentaries on St. Paul's epistles that it is nigh impossible to demonstrate the souls immortality without faith. This is primarily because the separated soul doesn't really make sense. I think the reason Thomas is okay with this is because he recognizes that humans are not supposed to die. Our deaths are unnatural in a way that the death of plants and animals is not. The separated soul is not a human person, but, as it were, longs to be so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Thoughts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where does he claim the demonstration of immortality is hard?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9949" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And much of what is missing, for the separated soul, is restored (for the saints at least) in the order of grace, yes? I haven't thought about this since senior year, but I seem to remember Nieto saying something like that when you and I, Daniel, were at his house for dinner one night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9950" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T11:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer: what does "clutch" mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9951" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is my understanding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, I think it is in his commentary on Corinthians. His language is actually shockingly strong there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T11:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You need to understand what up with symbolic math, you turn to Klein. He gives you what you need.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9954" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz might remember.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will try to look it up now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9956" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel--but you could say that about anything!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9957" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Namely, that Kenz might remember.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9958" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9959" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T11:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">«But there seem to be two doubts about this reasoning: one is that what the Apostle says does not seem to be universally true, namely, that Christians are confident in this life only, because they could say that, although our bodies do not possess any good things except in this life, which is mortal, yet according to the soul they have many good things in the other life. This can be turned aside in two ways: in one way, because if the resurrection of the body is denied, it is not easy, yea it is difficult, to sustain the immortality of the soul. For it is clear that the soul is naturally united to the body and is departed from it, contrary to its nature and per accidens. Hence the soul devoid of its body is imperfect, as long as it is without the body. But it is impossible that what is natural and per se be finite and, as it were, nothing; and that which is against nature and per accidens be infinite, if the soul endures without the body. And so, the Platonists positing immortality, posited re-incorporation, although this is heretical. Therefore, if the dead do not rise, we will be confident only in this life. In another way, because it is clear that man naturally desires his own salvation; but the soul, since it is part of man’s body, is not an entire man, and my soul is not I; hence, although the soul obtains salvation in another life, nevertheless, not I or any man. Furthermore, since man naturally desires salvation even of the body, a natural desire would be frustrated.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9960" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-08-31T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-08-31T11:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.dhspriory.org/thomas/SS1Cor.htm#152</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante--I'd still like to hear more about what you alluded to above--namely that the other scholastics would handle it differently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T11:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Pater Edmund, but I think there is another even stronger text.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9963" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T12:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gentlemen I have to be off to church- but don't confuse arguments for the resurrection (Pater's quote above) with discussions of the substantiality of the separated soul. Joel, more perhaps later tonight re other scholastic, but yes, you're right about "grace"- as I said earlier. Thomists tend to save the situation with a miraculum ex machina, by having God miraculously preserve the spirits against nature. But I'll leave with one more thought: it's easy to substract "rational" from substance, but subtract "substance' from "rational", and still have a rationality existing so much so that *one can pray to it* (I mean, I don't, but you do), is quite a move and seems nonsensical. One is left then with "quasi", but exactly what that means needs to be explained.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T12:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante, I don't think I am confusing the resurrection with the separated soul. I only brought that up to reinforce the notion that the separation of the soul is highly unnatural.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The key text I was interested in is this: "it is not easy, yea it is difficult, to sustain the immortality of the soul."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9966" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T13:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, a lot has been said (rightly perhaps) about the lack of practical options out of TAC. So, would you send your kids to TAC? Samantha? Peterson? Lendman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Particularly given the lack of teaching w/r/t writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9968" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-31T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-31T13:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Inclined towards it, depending on where the school is at at that time. It will get worse before it gets better, I think.<br />But I would take a number of steps to ensure they are well informed as to the next step in ways I wasn't.<br />The thing is, if you are given to see clearly graduating from TAC doesn't necessarily hold anyone back from whatever they want to do next.<br />For me, summers are key. I would have them do charitable/missionary type work the first two summer and them pre-professional work/internships the last. Plus use the time beforehand to supplement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T13:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Using summers that way is great, but it assumes no need to work and make money.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9970" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-31T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-31T13:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But much depends on how the school turns post founders and my kids. There are other places with different downsides and upsides that are much better on the practical/leadership side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-31T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-31T13:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right. My kids will all work crap jobs and pre-profesh internships when in HS.<br />I know many graduates who think money needs to be found for a summer program getting TAC kids out into charitable service.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-31T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-31T13:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as internships and pre-profesh programs go, you are ultimately losing money and time if you aren't doing this summer of junior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Valerie Acors" data-date="2014-08-31T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Valerie Acors at 2014-08-31T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thornburg ...still listening... I want my kid to go.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9974" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T13:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re: "How the school turns out post-founders," I guess I agree, in a certain sense. But I think I disagree with something you said thousands of comments ago, Matthew J. Peterson. Namely, I don't think that (as of '06 at least) the 2nd and 3rd generation of tutors were all worse than the founders. I think that there was more of a mix, but the best tutors while I was there were up there intellectually with the founders.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm guessing your children are pretty young, Matthew - they way you talk about what they are going to do in high school, during their summers, etc... I presume you do intend to give them some say in it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Bekah Sims" data-date="2014-08-31T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Bekah Sims at 2014-08-31T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrews I was blown away by the opportunities that were presented for my sister at Hillsdale. That's my first choice for my daughters right now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9977" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-31T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-31T13:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's still a little ways out, but as of now I'd be thrilled to see my kids go to TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9978" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T13:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depends on a lot, especially what the school is like in 12 years, and what my kids' goals are, and whether we've reconverted by then. I did try to convince my little sister to go there, though, and that was just last year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9979" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-08-31T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-31T13:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course. I'm flexible and it depends on the kid. But I am very aware of what parents who know the system do - and do systematically.<br />And any TAC grad needs to understand the opportunities a profesh liberal arts college can give their kids. And basically imitate that. Thankfully, I'll have my own connections, especially by then.<br />But really people need to know all the other fantastic educational options out there before they decide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9980" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I think we'll be in a decent position to remedy *some* of TAC's practical failures</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As parents I mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9982" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T14:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's fair enough.<br />I guess as a high school teacher I see the other side... the impact of parents who are certain that their children are going to live the lives the parents have chosen for them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bekah Sims Andrews: I was thinking more of the choice between TAC and the sort of schools Matthew was talking about--e.g. Pomona, Williams, Amherst, that sort of thing. Or even a big university like UVA or Michigan. I.e. schools that regularly place their students in prestigious graduate programs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9984" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-08-31T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-31T14:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a Hollywood mogul, your connections with be innumerable, Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9985" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T14:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I say this as a TAC grad who is also a parent with 1 at TAC, 1 at Northpark studying nursing and the third currently applying to all the top chemical engineering schools she can... (With 3 more to go...)<br />Never could have predicted any of it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope won't send mine there (at this point)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9987" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T14:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course the last name would probably preclude them from being accepted anyway, so the point is moot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T14:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It isn't like TAC doesn't have *any* students get into prestigious positions. I know of at least two grads who work (worked?) Goldman Sachs, and one who had an interview at Google. This is just off the top of my head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T14:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9990" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T14:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">1. Molly Gustin was definitely out of it by the time I had her. She knew me though, and insisted for 2 years before actually having me in class that she had had me in class.<br />2. She tried setting me up with girls, twice. Once based on similar etymological meanings of last names<br />3. If the entire class took the class seriously, we could have made it work. But they didn't. That is not them as much as her failing ability.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Beitia, even if they really wanted to go there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9992" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T14:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">she was excellent in 98-99 and 99-00</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOPE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T14:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Expand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9995" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T14:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would but I just got home from Mass and have to run out again.... you'll just have to wait...... bwahahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T14:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does Kenz mean? (Etymologically, that is.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9997" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T14:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">New TNET iron-on decal!<br />$9.99 while supplies last<br />1-800-THREAD-NOW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9998" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My children have each gone to a different school: the first to TAC, the second to DeSales University; the third to the University of Dallas; the fourth to Providence and then transferred to Christendom; and the fifth to AMDA in NYC (a conservatory to study acting). I have four more children still at home, the sixth child being currently a senior in high school. While I think TAC is the best choice without qualification, it would not have been the best choice for each child, especially since they did not choose it. And as Bekah noted when asking Matthew about his children having any choice about how they might spend their summers, you will find when it comes to college that you will have to take their choice into account. TAC is not for everyone, to be sure, but I think its strengths and weaknesses should be presented to a child who is capable and interested so that he can make an informed choice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_9999" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[as an outsider, definitely not. We are preparing our feral offspring for Mad Max Academy.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10000" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T14:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The meaning of my name she took from the root as being "ken" similar to kennen or kenntis, and hence meaning "knowledge" Won't say the girls name, but it was translated by Gustin as meaning "Idea" And from there an inappropriate knowing of the Ideas, you get the drift....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10001" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What Marie mentions above is so true--the danger of parents wanting their children to live the lives the parents have chosen for them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10002" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T14:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Jeffrey I did spend time on the looking into the belt, but later. It was at X.495. A lot there . Thanks again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow. Tutor match making! And here you folks were complaining that the tutors didn't do enough for you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will check out X 495. Thanks, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T14:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Jeffrey Bond - you may remember me as a TAC student of yours - Marie Grimley at the time. If I had followed my Dad's wishes, I would have been a business major at Loyola Marymount and then I would have gone to Law School.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or Dan Daniel Lendman, I think you are thinking of lectio 4 or 5 on cap. 15 1 Corinthians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But got to run</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Marie, I remember you well, but I did not recognize your married name. As you can see, I am still approving of the things you say!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What subject(s) are you teaching, Marie?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10010" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T14:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was principally wondering what those I tagged (and everybody else of course) would say if a child of theirs had an interest in TAC, but was undecided. I know there are lots of parents who give their children a choice between TAC and working at McDonald's, but I don't think anyone who's posted on the thread thus far would answer to that description.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10011" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T14:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHA! (I am better at Latin now!)<br />I ended up with an MA in Theology and I am presently teaching Senior level Theology at an Archdiocesan high school in Wisconsin.<br />Btw - my Dad was won over. When I graduated, he told me he wished he had known about TAC when my siblings were choosing a school, because he was convinced I received the best education. That coming from a Scottish immigrant who never attended college but - through self-study - passed the CPA exam and had his own very successful accounting firm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10012" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wonderful news, Marie, both about your teaching and your father. Does the high school actually support orthodoxy in the classroom? Or do you have to sneak it in where you can?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10013" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truth is I am inclined to send only a couple kids and TAC is on my short list, but I am thoroughly disillusioned with higher education. Learning a trade for most is financially and in other ways preferable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10014" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T14:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, Jeffrey Bond. I am the Department Chair and have full support of our Admin team, local Pastors, Superintendent and Bishops to teach the Catholic Faith. We are experiencing a real renewal here. All 5 of our lay Theology teachers are grads of TAC or FUS (or both - in my case) and our two part time Priests on the faculty are completely solid. We are the first high school to implement this curriculum/platform - original sources: https://verbum.com/<br />Verbum.com | Catholic Bible Study Tools for the Modern Church<br />Verbum helps you study the Faith. Understand the...<br />VERBUM.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10015" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T14:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gustin declared on multiple occasions that "Mr. Boyer knows everything."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow. I will check out Verbum. Thanks for the link. And congratulations on being department chair. It amazes me to hear that such a place exists. How many students are there in the high school? And do the other departments support the mission?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10017" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T14:43:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re. The professional stuff. Both my parents graduated from tac, so I guess they saw what you guys are seeing My dad was pretty insistent that I get a real job and work a year or two before college. (A) because older people often benefit more from TAC and (b) because it would help me be confident about finding a job after graduation.<br />I'm pretty certain he was right. I hope to ensure that my children have marketable skills by the end of highschool and some on the job experience in the professional world before college.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, is your father one of the founders of the Lyceum in Cleveland? Or is that a different Langley? Was that who you were asking me about last night?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are a "system", technically - Pre-K4 through 12. Opened in 2010. <br />Two buildings - elementary in one, middle and high school in the other.<br />Last year's numbers: PreK to 5 = 283; Middle School (6-8) = 206; High School = 320. I know the numbers have gone up this year. In May, our Board approved a Catholic Identity Committee to ensure our various departments/extra curriculars are on board. We had to choose 3 action steps per department which we are going to try to implement to improve Catholic identity - so we have work to do - but way, way better than the high school I attended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does he work with Luke Macik?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10021" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Impressive numbers, Marie. It sounds like a great project.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T14:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if it would be helpful to reverse the traditional expectations of college and high school: vocational studies are often easier to do well than the liberal arts and having professional experience might benefit someone's approach to TAC's curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10023" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T14:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, I think it is the work of St. Joseph. God's grace is really evident.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, that was my uncle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK. Now I'm getting things straightened out. Is he still at the Lyceum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but he is no longer the headmaster.<br />I asked about him, because I think he was at TAC in the late eighties.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a grea school. I visited once. Mark is a good man. Happy students there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10028" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I have met a number of the Lyceum graduates. Very impressive what they are doing there. Mark and I may have overlapped at TAC, but I never had him in class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10029" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's really too bad that Catholic high schools struggle to pay their teachers decent wages.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Amen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mark was in John Nieto's class, and they were quite close friends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10032" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is not the real problem though. The bert teachers dont come for money that isnt there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know John Nieto, but he was not a student at TAC when I was teaching there, so I guess Mark and I did not overlap.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think whatever we do with our education, and that of our children, we need to be solution oriented. To do that, we need to shift our focus from why things went wrong in the World, the Church and academia, and why we have proposed 'such and such' to fix the problem. We need to focus on quiddity. The Logos is what binds the Hellenic tradition with the Christian tradition. The Logos is the Thread. The Logos is the imprint of every good thought; it is imprinted on the all of nature's causes; imprinted on the DNA of nature; stamped into the mathemtaical equation, and onto the syllogism, imprinted onto the metaphor and into the enthymeme. It's the essence of the Sacraments and intercedes in the creation of our children. Every good invention of science, from penicilin to water in the desert, to clean water, to good food for the hungry, the Logos is at the heart of it all. It's the heart of Logic and the fullness of revelation, the Word of God and the Voice of His Church in Her dogma. So in all we do, we need to avail ourselves of the Logos, in Reason and Revelation and Dogma. Not to force it on anyone, but just to present it freely, in its various Catholic forms. The Logos is the healing remedy between medieval science and modern academia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s62MrU8mHx4<br />Ethel Merman sings "Everything's Coming Up Roses"<br />One of her final appearances...still had it...even then.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10036" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">still curious, Joel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10038" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that the evolution of TAC has lead less toward the inquisitive soul and more toward the safe place for daddy's brood. <br />The education, while great, doesn't set up well for either grad school or professional life (as per Peterson's earlier critique)<br />and it puts the student in debt. <br />I'd rather my kids went into the seminary, or to a state school for engineering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10039" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">or plumbers votech school. Plumbers have saved more lives than doctors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shouldn't the councils be called "plumbers of the church"? That's how the Church has flushed all the sh*t away</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree. Liberal arts or engineering - I actually started on the latter. As to liberal arts, I am writing her epitaph but maybe she is only mostly dead wherein lies my shadow of a hope . . . but then I generally only see things in hues of gray and black.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think TAC's student debt is all that great compared to other schools, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10043" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T15:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's better than graduating with a degree in gender studies and $50,000 in debt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no it isn't... but who wouldn't take 100K in debt at Princeton to start working at a hedge fund for 120K a year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nobody takes 100K in debt at Princeton</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10046" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T15:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, seriously, why not have vocational studies at a high-school level?<br />You know, woodworking classes with specified projects and deadlines. Or computer programming classes? You could even do intensive math and science</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FOR EXAMPLE, miss bleary eyed literalist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is success?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok fine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10050" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heaven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10051" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T15:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anywhere you have to take out 100K in loans in probably somewhere that won't get you the king of starting salary Princeton will, is my point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even if my kids were so inclined to be academics, I'd rather they had a shot at a tenure track job</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ivy league college financial aid, though, is the exception rather than the rule.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wouldn't you want your children to not have to worry about finances?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10056" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">at least not be debt slaves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10057" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes and no about worrying about finances. Too much concern: very bad. Too much money: probably worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10058" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T15:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really think the issue of worrying about finances is way, way bigger than a TAC issue.<br />When we left California, my husband was in a sales job and I was at home with the kids. The only stay at home mom in my neighborhood - AND - the one with the most kids.<br />We came to the Midwest - he took a $50k pay cut and we had a better standard of living here than we did in So Cal.<br />Ultimately, when the kids went to school, I went to work. It is true that I would way rather stay at home, but we need the money and the health insurance. But - given all that is happened, I do see my work as Providential.<br />In a culture based on contraception and dual-income families, there is undue pressure put on fathers today because you are trying to compete in a totally whacked society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10059" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thankfully God gives each what each needs. To those who would be destroyed by too little, He gives more. To those who would be destroyed by too much, He gives less.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10060" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boethius had it right on this issue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a whole lot easier to say post hoc, Jeffrey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10062" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but it doesn't put food on the table.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10063" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not saying it post hoc. I am saying it hic et nunc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Librarianship has turned out to be a fairly ideal career for me, finance wise. Sufficient money to live upon comfortably but not enough to corrupt my soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"sorry kids, no sandwiches in your lunches because we're broke and out of bread, but God thinks you eat too much"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was also fortunate to go to a graduate school that was fairly generous in financial aid so I got out of there without a lot of debt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are right, Michael Beitia - about it not putting food on the table. But I would venture to guess that your finances suffer due to your adherence to the Gospel. Open to life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10068" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">now I know that God wants me to be poor because being comfortable would destroy me, I'm cool. Everything is awesome, we live in the best of all possible worlds</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10069" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any other way of looking at it has bigger problems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I live comfortably because I'm single. It's just me I have to feed. If I had a family, I would most likely be in your shoes, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if the Dr. Pangloss method is the best method</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10072" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, not Dr. Pangloss. Boethius and the Gospel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we and many i know are getting serious extra crosses. So Michael, if your feeling the crunch it is a good sign really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd probably be better off if I lived in Texas, but I'd rather take a bullet than move back to Texas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chicago style!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10076" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. Everything will never be awesome if you are a Christian.... you are<br />living a life contrary to the culture. But I bet your kids know you love them, even on the days when they have less food than you would like. I'm poor, too, btw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Texas isn't bad - just bloody hot in the summer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10078" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The heat was my favorite part</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you recall Sean Connery's character explaining to Eliot Ness the Chicago way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10080" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">doesnt make it much easier. And i am a whiner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Untouchables?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least it's not super-humid Midwest heat. And the winters are fairly mild.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Great scene in the Church when Sean Connery's character (I forget the name) asks Ness if he really want to get Capone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I knew how to post film clips, I would put it here for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10085" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZ6eaL3S2E<br />The Chicago Way - The Untouchables (2/10) Movie CLIP (1987) HD<br />The Untouchables Movie Clip - watch all clips http://j.mp/...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you all teachers at Catholic high schools?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10088" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry! No offense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10090" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T15:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Lord hates a coward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(but I did for one year many moons ago)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not at all. I'm a librarian, although I do teach Spanish class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I am the only high school teacher here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am on extended Sabbatical, licking my wounds and chomping at the bit. I love teaching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do teach one Spanish class for adults - might be starting a second one in the fall. I really do enjoy that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was the extended sabbatical of your own choosing, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God's who crushes the proud. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">actually my head was hit, severe brain trauma . . . and them . . . and then. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What happened?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10101" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T16:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i dropped our house on my head. I dont recommend it (jack slipped). But as to schools, i basically had to resign at the last 4 places and still dont think i could have done differently. The liberal arts catholic schools are a warzone. And its one of principalities and powers . . . the things i have seen </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10102" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T16:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thoreau talks about the farmer walking down the road carrying his farm (or at least the weight of the mortgage) on his back. You did the old farmer one better and tried to put it on your head. As for your comment about the warzone, I completely agree. We must get together some day and trade war stories.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10103" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm aware of some of your war stories, Jeffrey Bond. You are a hero of mine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10104" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T16:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aw, shucks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10105" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(82, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T16:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a model of doing what is right and fighting in spite of insane pressure....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10106" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T16:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truly I thank you, Marie, especially for your prayers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10107" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T16:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You've got them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10108" class="entry even" data-likes="16" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-08-31T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-31T17:40:00 with 16 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, as a late response to your question: I do not plan to 'send' my children anywhere. I am hopeful by the time they are 18 or there abouts, that they will be able to make a largely reasonable decision about their post-high school ambitions.<br />TAC was great for me. In fact, it was nigh perfect. I don't regret going there for a moment. My wife, however, did not go to TAC and having gone to the summer program, she realized that she would hate it. HATE IT. Consequently, I am open to my children going to whatever place best suits them. <br />I despise (for good or for ill) things that are done for such tawdry purposes as getting a high-paying job, or having lots of prestige. <br />Consequently, such considerations will have no bearing on the counsel I give my children. I will encourage them to do those things that are good in themselves. <br />But I am a fool, and I will always be in debt. So, there's that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10109" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-08-31T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-08-31T18:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier What a great post, Daniel Lendman!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10110" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm undecided about making my children go to TAC, on the one hand are all the horror stories about people who were forced to go to TAC. On the other hand there are people like my cousin Pat Coughlin who, in a toast, said that he was "grateful to his parents for making the best decision he didn't make" or something to that effect. He also said something like "I did freshman year for my parents, sophomore year for my friends and junior year for the program itself".<br />I do think people generally overestimate how much teenagers grasp what is good for them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my case, coming to TAC was like coming home: because of my family's atmosphere and because I was always more or less consciously planning to go to TAC, being at TAC seemed like the most normal thing in the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10112" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T18:08:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">God give us more fools like Daniel Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10113" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T18:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh Daniel....... you've still got to pay the bills... and last I checked, "philosopher-king" positions were taken. there are a lot worse things than putting your children in a position to succeed more easily, especially because teenagers don't know what is good for them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10114" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ferrier! You have graced TNET with your esteemed presence! Now I know the end is near</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nor do adults often know what's good for them.. But both teenagers and adults learn, hopefully after proper guidance, by making choices and then dealing with consequences. Some children might benefit by being told where to go to college, but many would not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10116" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-08-31T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-08-31T18:21:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia--I used to worry about the type of students TAC was admitting. During my time there, it seemed to me that TAC had moved from recruiting people passionate about the program but maybe not so much about the rules to people passionate about the rules and indifferent to the program. In other words, they were there because it was a safe Catholic place, and maybe they would even find a spouse. I remember my senior year a sophomore telling me she didn't read Chaucer because her parents had told her it was "immoral." Richard Delahide Ferrier may remember this. He had some choice (and apt!) words on the subject!<br />Since then I've met several younger students, and I think my concerns were maybe overblown a bit. My wife and I both have younger siblings who graduated after us (or are still there) and there are still very many "seekers of the truth" there, or so it seems to me. For a place like TAC to work, you need good students *and* good tutors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10117" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T18:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I've never set foot back in the hallowed Shire since driving up Hwy 14 and tossing an empty fifth of Jack out the window of Booty's Benz. I hear things, but that's all. All I know is that they somehow manage to find my address and send me letters begging for money no matter where I move. One of you jerks out there is selling me out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10118" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T18:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10120" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T18:28:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I send Kretschmer emails saying you make 350,000 a year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10121" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T18:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">yen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the best plan in most circumstances is to require at least one year of TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T18:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, some people should not read Chaucer. Like 8 year olds. The ye olde english would throw them off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Calling out Boyer's solecism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"the the olde english"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T18:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, pardon me for being colloquial. It should be The "Ye Olde English", which would take "Ye Olde English" as a (semi)clever unit of speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whole hearted agreement with Daniel Lendman above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Each lecture in the drones series focuses on one of the three basic attributes of the Abrahamic God: he's omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (everywhere), and omnipotent (all-powerful).<br />Apparently, so are drones.<br />"Drones would be a sort of a microcosm of who God is," Young preaches in the third lecture, before briefly explaining each attribute.'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.vox.com/.../drone-god-megachurch-preacher...<br />God is a Predator drone: one Texas megachurch preacher's bizarre lecture series<br />Does comparing God to a drone make sense? Definitely...<br />VOX.COM<br />August 31 at 6:50pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley Discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10130" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T18:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One, Vox is not an authoritative source of anything. Two, this is definitely stretching analogy, because drones are not actually "onmiscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent" not could they ever be those three. Third, the fittingness of the metaphor comes into question, since Drones are not usually tools of anything other than the police or military. The King's power is present in all areas of the realm not only to punish but also to build up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10131" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T18:53:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">To return to Daniel Lendman's comment above, I have met too many people who are very smart and well formed in the Catholic intellectual tradition who did not go to TAC to think that anyone MUST go there like it or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I left out the </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I figured you wanted discussion for the sake of more post #s</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10134" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mostly shared it because it provoked a laugh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I don't think I would force TAC on my children: especially since my brother didn't seem to fit into TAC very well but took to the Army like a fish to water.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T18:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the other hand, I do think TAC provides an opportunity that isn't available many other places.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10137" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ultimately, I would praise and recommend TAC very highly for its strengths. More than any one particular piece of book learning, TAC helped me form (it didn't give it to me, it *helped* me) good habits of thought and an desire to know. If all learning begins with a sense of wonder, it seems appropriate that every class begins with a question, one you may not have thought about. I probably would have done just as well overall for grad school by going to a different undergrad institution. However, TAC is what made me interested in philosophy. It made me interested in areas I would not have thought to look into. I do not think a standard school would have provoked me in this manner.<br />I think the habitus which TAC tries to foster in its students is well worth the time and effort, even if one does not pursue a further degree. This doesn't mean that everyone needs it.<br />Hell, I didn't really get fully into the entire search for truth at TAC until I got slapped around in a don rags for being arrogant and then fell in and out of love with Descartes. Junior Math with Dr. Richard Delahide Ferrier also opened my eyes as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And any shortcomings in personality or intellectual biases I gained were not taught to me. Those are on me and my fellow alumni. No tutor told me that I HAD to interpret Thomas in a certain light.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10139" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC taught me how to articulate arguments and back them up well. That's an ability I can use in all areas of my life and a habit of thinking that was engendered in me by my four years there. I'll forever be grateful to TAC for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10140" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I do agree that TAC is not for everyone. And no one should feel pressured into going there simply because their entire family did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10141" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, TAC relies on peer pressure to form the requisite Thomistic dogmas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said, it wasn't tutors. That's on me and the other alumni</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10143" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The waterboarding of Gilsonians was a bit over the top.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there is an unbroken line of pressure reaching back to when the tutors themselves were students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dogmas, Edward? We don't learn any stinking dogmas! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10146" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed. It's a bit hard not to have some bit of pressure on you to go to TAC when 100 of your aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings all went to the same college.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10147" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, as a first gen TACer, I didn't have that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10148" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me neither. I was the first in my family to go - then my brother went. And my brother got to be far more well known than I.... Bairdo is still legend in certain circles, apparently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10149" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I did see was some undue...attachment to certain tutors as sole well springs of the truth. Or at least that's how it stuck this humble alum. And it was surprising that I did come out with certain views which were never explicitly stated, but which I had picked up by osmosis. Not saying those views were wrong, but I tend to read texts in a certain way without having been told that is the TAC way to read them. I think that's something other than peer pressure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10151" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, it's the result of actually knowing what the text says </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^THIS^\</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know my brother????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrew?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was a year or two ahead of me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10157" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny: when I read Heidegger, I remember what it felt like to be new to Aristotle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that makes sense. I just keep running into people that graduated long after he did that know him. It's a little funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10159" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember my first weekend there, he invited me to a cook out at the rocks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar...Hobbes was fond of his dram..." Oh, I'm sorry - I got sidetracked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10161" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">AAAAAAAAAAND Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: "I drink therefore I am"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Nothing Nietszche couldn't teach ye about the raisin' of the wrist..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Socrates himself was peeeeeeermanently piiiiiiiiiiissed....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle, Aristotle, was a beggar for the bottle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10165" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although reading Thomas makes me partial to Analytic philosophy (not in terms of content, but in terms of method).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10166" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I too like the analytics in broad strokes, although they get a lot wrong. And analytic Thomists are good, although some of them need to realize that Frege and Aquinas are not the same person on existence. *cough* Davies *cough*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10167" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-08-31T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-31T19:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analytic Thomist is an oxymoron there i said it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes and No, the analytics have a keen sense of the necessity of dialectics that the scholastics would appreciate. Their execution of dialectics, however, is often dissatisfying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'd rather deal with an analytic philosopher than an über-Gilsonian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The two schools of thought occasionally clash in my dept.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10171" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The main failing of most Analytics are the Humean metaphysical presuppositions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That and a deep-seated skepticism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is perhaps the same thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same difference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">About the bestiary: <br />Please join us tonight at www.fiatministrynetwork.tv at 9pm EST LIVE. Joe will talk to Jonathan about his book call "The Blessed Book of Beasts". They will talk about the literary genre of the Catholic bestiary. Please check out the website for the book https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...<br />Fiat Ministry Network<br />Fiat Ministry Encouraging All to Say Yes to Jesus Christ<br />FIATMINISTRYNETWORK.TV</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10176" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T20:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My biggest problem with analytic philosophy is that it takes it self far too seriously I.e Wittgenstein ... it is a kind of unreality</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10177" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T21:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was trolling all of us just a shameless plug for your book, Perescott?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really like Wittgenstein on the whole.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Initially, I didn't want to go TAC. One of my good friends had gone there (class of 1998) and his freshman year he was SO obnoxious. It really turned me off the school. So I was dead set on Christendom. However, I somehow got persuaded into going to one of the very first summer programs. Owen Sweeney, Jen Danner (now DellaCroce - I think), Marco Emerson, Mary Susanka (now Robinson) etc were my prefects.<br />I fell in love with it the moment I stepped on campus. After that, I totally forgot about Christendom.<br />I had a difficult four years there - the program was challenging and, honestly, going straight from homeschooling to college was probably NOT the best idea - but I'm profoundly grateful for the education I received. But it isn't for everybody.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10180" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T21:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wittgenstein? Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/slcYzUIPSD4<br />The Mostly German Philosophers Love Song<br />A very silly song by J. Boor: http://www.jboor.net/ LYRICS are here: http://jboor.bandcamp.com/track/the-mostly-ger...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ugh, I am not fond of German philosophers. Although I did enjoy Kant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-08-31T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-31T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you'll love the Mostly German Philosophers Love Song....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10184" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T21:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like Michael prefers vague, sloppy philosophy while John prefers clear, precise philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T21:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wanted to burn my Hegel so many times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10186" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T21:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny in class at TAC, there is a definite tension between the students and tutors who like big giant "philosophy of the whole" kinda statements and those who want to work out every niggling detail of two sentences in the Summa. The current analytic vs. continental war is an eternal struggle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T21:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'm the "philosophy of the whole" type in general. I was better at big picture analysis than individual sentence analysis. I felt that those who split sentences could miss the forest for the trees.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-08-31T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-08-31T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am the latter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love continental philosophy....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and yes, I'm a GUTofP kind of guy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(69, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I wouldn't call it vague or sloppy....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-08-31T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-08-31T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm definitely more continental.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10193" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I might not have been completely unbiased in my presentation of the debate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10194" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T21:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel-- I don't think anyone here was arguing that prestige should be pursued for its own sake. It's a means to and end, and an increasingly important one. It's like Matthew J. Peterson said, TACers need to know the score, and to that end tutors need to know it, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T21:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I guess Daniel is asleep now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10196" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-08-31T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-31T21:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I have been accused of pursuing tawdry ends. :::::more feigned outrage:::::::</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10197" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real question is: are you into vague, sloppy philosophy or clear and precise phil?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10198" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer what do you like about Wittgenstein? I enjoyed On Certainty and Culture and Value. His major works not so much. The Tractatus was like an LCWR labyrinth and I find the Investigations very tedious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10199" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T21:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you think Wittegenstein is actually precise and clear I've got a bridge to sell you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10200" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're all just gnostics<br />TAC produces arrogant grads that think they don't need the magisterium<br />#thingsweveneverheardbefore</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wittgenstein vs. Heidegger? No contest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heidegger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10205" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T22:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward one conversation I had with Nieto that you would've enjoyed was him pointing out all of the fallacies in the Tractatus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, what is objectionable in Heidegger?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10207" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never says anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10208" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T22:04:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's so TAC to say this, but if you reject Aristotelian logic out of hand, you will make logical mistakes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Says a ton. <br />Even if "conclusions" are what you're after, his method is extremely important</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10210" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T22:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analytic vs Continental is as wrongheaded as Republican vs Democrat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In terms of method, it's basically vague vs. precise</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10212" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but there's a difference between analytic and continental....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_10214" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plato was the original continental philosopher and Aristotle the original analytic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10215" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but it's all down-hill from there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(with a minor deviation in the mid-13th century)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you studied a lot of continental philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bonaventure -- continental, Aquinas -- analytic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't you even</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me? Just Beans and Twine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just asking.... outside of the TAC curriculum, I don't know what people are all focused up on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd take a helping of Quine any day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10223" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just threw up in my mouth a little</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10224" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T22:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analytic philosophers talk to Thomists like they're third party candidates</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read Being and time and bits of Heid.'s commentary on Plato's Sophist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(course on, I should say)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10227" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Descartes - analytic<br />British Empiricists - analytic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">got some skeletons in the old closet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10229" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've listened to Sokolowski lecture on various phil.ers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(including a class on "Virtue and Human Action")</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did a seminar with him on "the essence of truth" back in the TAC senior days</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's an amazing teacher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10233" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did he basically lecture? Or could he do the TAC thing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">seemed to be, this was about a 90 minute seminar - ages ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was the TAC thing like Neumeyr ..... but not quite Berquist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10236" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only problem is that he expects you to actually be able to write.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I plan to audit his courses after I finish this MA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being and Time I found to be less worthy of study... I think it is because the youth always seem to be systematizers. . . his studies of other things are more worthwhile</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IHMO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I'm clearly far from expert</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The good thing about my class on Being and Time was that the Heideggering exposition in my paper was virtually indistinguishable from the padding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10242" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say the fruits of continental philosophy are more sickly than analytic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-08-31T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-08-31T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">again, I think the method is important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw, Thomists haven't been first-class philosophers since Bacon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-08-31T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-08-31T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-08-31T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-08-31T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Is there any truth to this?:<br />"the devotion to Machiavelli was very strong by the early 90s, there. You couldn't meet a TAC grad who wasn't babbling about how WONDERFUL The Prince was and how you just didn't UNDERSTAND it if you thought it was amoral or immoral"<br />http://www.dailykos.com/comments/171907/4494627#c14<br />Here's a question-- (4.00) Anyone know if there was any personal connection...<br />DAILYKOS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always had a soft spot for the Prince. But mostly because Machiavelli is a ridiculously good writer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've probably read the Prince more frequently then any other non-Aristothomist book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I don't think there's any truth to a Straussian connection among the founders.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10250" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-08-31T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-31T23:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley, there have been first class Thomists since bacon....not many, maybe not even the more known, but there are some greats out there if you look.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By "first-class" I was referring to stature in academia, not stature per-se</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">After all John of St. Thomas was Bacon's contemporary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10253" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or if there were they wouldnt tell you. CryptoStraussians </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, Dr. MacArthur wasn't one to hold anything back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10255" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:13:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">There was no personal connection between Leo Strauss and Ron McArthur, though Dr. McArthur knew Harry Jaffa, the top Straussian at Claremont. Dr. McArthur completely rejected the Straussians. I know this for a fact because Dr. McArthur made that perfectly clear when I interviewed to teach at TAC. Having come from the University of Chicago where I studied under a number of the Straussians (Bloom, Kass, Cropsey and Tarcov), I was asked by Dr. McArthur if I was one. "That stuff will kill you," he told me quite bluntly. But I did not need convincing because I had directly experienced their destructive teachings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i was kidding. I see nothing to indicate such. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10257" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No need to apologize. I got the joke. I wasn't addressing your comment, but just the question of any connection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I studied for a year with a Straussian at UD. He is partly why I left.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-31T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-31T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bolotin's essay on Thucydides (from Strauss and Cropsey's History of Political Philosophy) really helped me in my Freshman year. Yes, I know: we should not have been reading outside sources. But it was really well-written and substantial. It helped me along to thinking about the intention of the author on a deeper level.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10260" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Strauss is fascinating, but his followers were mostly nihilists. Whether they were true to the master's teaching is hard to say. His book on Machiavelli is well worth reading. Very clever how he shows how Machiavelli used Livy to secretly attack his real enemy, the Church. Then one realizes that Strauss himself is using the same tactic. His "attack" on Machiavelli is really his way of secretly attacking Christianity. The Straussians, at least every one I knew, hated Christianity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10261" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I agree with Daniel that one can learn a great deal from some of their writings. But their overall mission is, as Dr. McArthur insisted, destructive. I never read Bolotin's essay on Thucydides, but Strauss' essay on Thucydides in The City and Man is helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T23:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i second that. on their antiChristianity. It was masked at UD and most my fellow grads didnt see it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-08-31T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-08-31T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Mr. Langley,<br />I was already quite certain about Dr. McArthur, I even spoke to him once on the subject. The apparent Strauss infestation came later.<br />I was wondering about The Prince and whether there where TACers lauding it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-08-31T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-08-31T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But some of the Straussians are brilliant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10265" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The first Straussians I encountered at Kenyon College did a good job getting students to question their moral relativism. The irony of it all, however, is that those students who were truly convinced that relativism was false then became a problem for the Straussians. These Straussians felt it was their job to convince most students to be good citizens of the regime (by supporting the ancients against the moderns), but then to convince the few select philosophers that the moderns were really right. They promoted an exoteric teaching for the many--be a good citizen--and an esoteric teaching for the few--there is no natural basis for morality. Very twisted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10266" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-31T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-31T23:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not fascinated with Strauss' writings and ideas (although some of the essays are useful, e.g., the essay on the Euthyphro); but, biographically, after my years in Germany, what interests me is the activities of Strauss within the larger German and German-Jewish community (Löwith, Arendt, Heidegger, et al.).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There may be tutors who like things about Strauss on the faculty, but I've never run into a full-blown Straussian in class (or else, I missed it). I never experienced anything like widespread admiration for the Prince: in fact, the closest thing to that is when one of my classmates asked me to stop comparing every work of political philosophy to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Strauss obviously had a problem with the Nazis regime, and his investigation into the ancients seemed to have been fueled by his quest for an answer to the problem of modernity. Sadly, what he seemed to find in Plato was a confirmation of the Nazis position. The Nazis position was right--it's all about the will to power--but we need a "noble lie" to keep the many from knowing this. I think Strauss simply could not bring himself to accept that Plato actually thought there was an objective order to the cosmos. The Forms for Strauss are just an elegant lie that has a salutary effect on political life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10269" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Straussians even turn St. Thomas into a exoteric/esoteric teacher. When St. Thomas quotes St. Paul at the beginning of the Summa about providing milk, not solid food, the Straussians seize on that as evidence of a secret teaching. St. Thomas, it turns out, is also a nihilist!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard stories about wacky Shakespeare readings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Butcher jobs on Shakespeare. He too was a nihilist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-08-31T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-31T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, why do you think so many nihilists (both in America and Germany) gravitate towards the right wing rather than the left? It fascinates me that so many of these early German nihilists, including Strauss and Schmitt, are politically speaking part of a larger conservative revolutionary milieu that arises in Weimar (not National Socialist but part of that broader intellectual genus). The later nihilists (disciples of Strauss) also seem to gravitate to conservative politics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As it turns out, for the Straussians--at least the ones I knew--there is really no great thinker who thinks there is an objective moral order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, the ol' "St. Thomas was an atheist because the five ways are so weak" routine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10275" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Benardete a Straussian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re. O'Connell's question, possibly because hardline nihilism is less conducive to an Epicurean worldview?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-08-31T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-31T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More fantastical promotion of the first Catholic bestiary written in centuries. How does God use animals to lead us to devotion?<br />https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...<br />Eastern Christian Publications<br />Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…<br />SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10278" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good question, Daniel. I don't really know. When I would challenge them on that very point--in other words, why be one thing rather than the other if there is no support for morality in nature--they would get huffy and say something about how most men need a myth to believe by. Why they cared about the many poor fools, they could not say. One of the favorite words of the Straussians is "salutary." They defend the ancients against the moderns (at least politically) because it is more "salutary" to believe in something. But since "salutary" has no meaning if there is nothing to be salutary about, their position makes no sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the cynic in me says that they're equally distributed on each side so they can act out their Nietzschean power plays against each other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10280" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-08-31T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-08-31T23:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my experience, they were all conservatives (though they thought there was nothing really to conserve). But yes, Nietzsche is their man--though you cannot say that publicly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-08-31T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-08-31T23:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nihilists, not Straussians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Very curious how Strauss defends the ancients against the moderns in Natural Right and History, but he refuses to endorse the most fundamental political teaching of the ancients, namely, that political order rests upon a teleological natural order. Strauss wanted the ancient position without its foundation. I forget the name of the author who exposed this in the Review of Metaphysics many, many years ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see what you mean now, Edward. Yes, the nihilists can pick whatever side pleases them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, ultimately Stoicism and Epicureanism seem to produce nihilists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10286" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speak no ill of Epictetus, though! The Discourses of Arrian is one of my favorite works of late classical philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess a Christian can read it sympathetically, but it seems pretty empty to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10288" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find Stoic "meditations" or "spiritual exercises" (as P. Hadot would have called them) are really effective at helping one to master the emotions. At least it helped me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't deny that, I love Stoic philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10290" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T00:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it generally led Stoics to suicide</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, you can't take it too far ... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-01T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-01T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"One never steps in the same river twice."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really only know the Stoics through Cicero, and it never did much for me. By the way, Strauss read his Plato through Cicero, and I think that helps explain his strange twist on Plato. Cicero also wanted to wrap himself in the mantle of Plato's authority, but Cicero was finally a skeptic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10294" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-01T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-01T00:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward: I'm with you - I really enjoyed the Stoics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The New Academy championed by Cicero held as its fundamental position that one could never attain certainty. St. Augustine takes this position apart piece by piece.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine is good at taking Cicero and the Academics apart. It strikes me that Cicero's life (as we can judge it by his actions) was to defend the republic from the old families of Rome (on the one side) and the plebs (on the other). Why is another question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10297" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">De Officiis is a Stoic tract, so TACers don't really see the real Cicero.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10298" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do get a taste of him, though. I think it's in City of God that Augustine takes up his argument about divine foreknowledge and its inconsistency with free will (which A. demolishes).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10299" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Cicero's de natura deorum presents the Stoic position which Cicero then undermines through the New Academy skepticism. More rhetoric than philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10300" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are right, Daniel, about Cicero's political position. The why is an interesting question. I think he thought his rhetoric could forge an alliance among all men of good will. He could never be a full aristocrat--he was a "new man"--but he could not identify with the many either. He saw his oratorical skills as that which could guide the republic. His own rather terrestrial version of Plato's philosopher-king.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like how Epictetus used a lot of animal metaphors to describe the reason of man. The Stoic's familiar with Aesop. <br />Consider, then, from what you are distinguished by reason. You are distinguished from wild beasts; you are distinguished from cattle. Besides, you are a citizen of the universe, and a part of it; not a subordinate, but a principal part. (Discourses, 2)<br />Further, there is a general and a particular end. The first is, to act as a man. What is comprehended in this? To be gentle, yet not sheepish; not to be mischievous, like a wild beast. (Discourses, 3)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10302" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:23:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">To address Edward's question way back when: I think Seth Benardette is a Straussian, but I don't know if he would accept that august appellation. I only heard him lecture once. Three fourths of the lecture on Plato was in Greek. When no one had a question after the lecture was over (because no one understood what he was saying), I asked him if he thought one had to know Greek to understand Plato. He got angry and refused to answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also like the epicheireme of Cicero. It's a much more interesting rhetorical argument that the Aristotlean enthymeme, though it seems to rely on the topics of invention, it is a strongly deductive persuasive argument that embraces a full range of political issues, even today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10304" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Allan Bloom was present at the Benardette lecture on Plato. Bloom laughed scornfully at my question. I thought it was a reasonable thing to ask. St. Thomas, after all, mastered Aristotle with no knowledge of Greek.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10305" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting observation, Scott. I found Cicero to be much more interested in how one can move and manipulate an audience's emotions. Philosophy (logic) seems to be little more than an ornament for Cicero's rhetoric.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T00:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A point on suicide and the "control" of the emotions. It seems a suppression rooted as spiritual writers point out in pride. Thus in the end Portia swallows burning coals. Is that what they do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10307" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="David Upham" data-date="2014-09-01T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">David Upham at 2014-09-01T00:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">We made it to 10,000. Oh, and just so we're all clear. TAC provides the greatest Catholic, liberal-arts education of any undergraduate institution west of Irving, Texas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You must be a Dallas man. Brilliant deduction, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T00:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, Jeffrey. I think Augustine really pulled all of those emotional arguments under his hat. He never said you need to argue in a particular language either. Usually, only people who are losing an argument make those claims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Upham, your a closet Straussian. Admit it. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10311" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't every Straussian a closet Straussian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Augustine understood how important emotions are in truth seeking for most people. If you want to appeal to emotions, bring in a few more premises. But who has time for that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know David. He is not. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The further east you go, the more emotional the Catholic liberal arts colleges become.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is because of the way the sun travels across the country. The Virginia sunsets warm the heart and invites you to bring more and more observations into the structure of the syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10316" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question of Benardete's links to Strauss is perhaps more fit for a dissertation topic than a short paper, but the New School's Digital Archive has just put much of Benardete's papers online with only a few minor exceptions (e.g., correspondence with those still living and, interestingly enough, Strauss' letters to B.). The link is here: http://library.newschool.edu/.../finding.../pdf/NA000501.pdf<br />The handwriting presents some difficulties, but one can find several interesting pages, including a 4-page letter to Strauss (regarding the Sophist) and some notes on the New Testament.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anything interesting on the New Testament?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10318" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T00:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Virginia, a 5-premised epicheireme to restore all things to Christ. In Texas, a simple enthymeme to set students free. At TAC, the syllogism to be sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10319" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read the New Testament pages yet. Still struggling through the letter to Strauss, which poses two obstacles: his poor handwriting and my poor Greek.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was never impressed by Benardete's writings. He always seemed lost in the minutiae. I thought his essay on Oedipus Rex was particularly weak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T00:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to get some sleep. It has been a pleasure conversing with you folks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Likewise. Here is the link for the NT scribblings:<br />http://library.newschool.edu/.../SB_01-35_New_Testament.pdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10323" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's more difficult to read his handwriting than the 15th-c. manuscripts I've worked with.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10324" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T00:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goodnight all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10325" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T01:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng, re q on Wittgenstein. I like how he identifies important problems and issues. Especially in Blue and Brown books and Investigations. I like the dialectic. Beetle in box is excellent argument against idealism/extreme skepticism. His general style makes me think. I take him to be useful for certain points rather than an overall world view or system.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10326" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T01:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great argument against representationalism in Blue book could be reworked to be argument for immateriality of soul. Wittgenstein argues concepts only make sense linguistically but basic point that we do not recognize things by comparing to image shows there must be something immaterial at work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never spent any time with the blue or brown books, but good things about them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-01T04:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-01T04:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: how did you find Kass? I really like his books, but you group him with the Chicago Straussians and their 'destructive teachings' above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10329" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-01T04:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-01T04:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, in note 62 of the Common Good Book CDK writes the following: "It has become most urgent to spread the writings of St. Augustine against the Pelagian exaltation of man and of liberty, as well as his writings on marriage." http://ldataworks.com/aqr/V4_BC_notes.html#BC_n62<br />It seems clear that sophomore theology at TAC is inspired by the Pelagian part of this remark.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-01T04:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-01T04:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HOW DID I MISS THE WITT MEETING?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10331" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-01T05:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-01T05:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">«"If only one of [Wittgenstein and Heidegger] had existed, who would you have preferred and why?"<br />"Don’t Sophie’s Choice me! What a cruel interview… I guess if I had to choose, I’d take Heidegger. As much as I love Wittgenstein, his project is to get me to stop doing philosophy, to perform a philosophical intervention on someone in denial, and damn it — I like doing philosophy! Heidegger still believes in the ability to use philosophy to learn, and he is still teaching me new things, even after reading him for nearly 20 years. I think that answers the question about their obsolescence as well.Foretelling future histories of philosophy is not a profitable endeavor, but I certainly can’t imagine them fading from view, or even becoming minor characters. If the view of philosophy as a conversation is right, then there are vast swaths of 20th Century philosophy that simply cannot be understood without them: phenomenology, existentialism, post-modernism, logical positivism, ordinary language philosophy, to name a few."» http://www.3ammagazine.com/.../on-heidegger-wittgenstein.../</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10332" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T09:54:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I left the conversation last night before your question about Kass. Here's my experience with the man. I took a seminar he offered on Plato's Symposium. Kass, like Eryximachus in the actual dialogue, is a medical doctor. I was amazed how Plato somehow anticipated the typical "medical" position on love. Kass actually ran the seminar the way Eryximachus tried to run the drinking party! Just as Eryximachus tried (but failed) to orchestrate the discussion at the party in such a way as to control and limit the erotic/philosophic strivings of the participants, so Kass in his own strange way tried to suppress any real eros for the Good among those in the classroom. (As an aside to the question you are asking, it is worth noting that the entire experience was an extraordinary testimony of the fact that Plato's dialogues, as perfected works of art, really do imitate real philosophical discussion. Students often stress what they perceive to be the "artificiality" of Plato's dialogues, yet my experience--and especially with Kass that semester--was quite the opposite. Without going into details, the parallels between the conversation in the dialogue and that in the classroom were astonishing, with Kass having unwittingly cast himself in the rather comical role of Eryximachus trying desperately to keep eros under control.) Kass, in typical Straussian form, wanted nothing to do with the metaphysical questions raised by the dialogue, and he tried to suppress any efforts to discuss those matters. His focus was on the political need to control eros for the sake of the political community. And, of course, Kass had his way because the room was filled with his disciples, whom some of us called "Kassettes" because if you pushed their "buttons" they would simply repeat whatever Kass had said. Plug and play. Well, Kass asked me to come see him in his office at one point, and there he tried to recruit me into the inner fold. He very solemnly (in Eryximachus like fashion) informed me that his goal was to make good citizens out of most of his students because they could not handle the "dark truth" that "there is nothing out there." His mission, as he explained it, was to paint a beautiful myth, as Plato did, that could be placed between the students and the darkness. Kass invited me to join him as one of the myth makers because he and I, he said, could handle the truth. We must, he insisted, present a salutary teaching for the many, even though that teaching was not true. When I asked him how one knew what to be salutary about if there were nothing true, he responded by saying he would not take the question as a challenge, but only as me wanting to know how to respond to my own students someday when they asked me the same question. Truly amazing. It was like a seduction scene from a medieval morality play, an invitation to have a special seat next to the beloved master. It was a very tempting offer for a young man trying to find his way in the big, bad world of academia, but, thanks be to God, there was a Socratic figure in the classroom who saved me from the dark side. Sounds dramatic, eh? I was not a Catholic at the time, but moving in that direction, and my conviction that Kass was wrong, and the Church was probably right, saved me. As for Kass' writings, they can indeed provide some help in some areas, but if you look carefully at what he actually says you will see that he really does not endorse the position he seems to be defending. Kass, for example, is not really a teleologist. That is just part of the salutary myth he paints for the many. Whenever Kass encountered someone who really was convinced that nature is teleological, he didn't know what to do with that person, and he did everything he could to undermine that person's influence in the classroom. Kass did his very best to minimize the influence of the Socratic figure in our Symposium seminar, but he ultimately failed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T09:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"it is a great temptation to try to make the spirit explicit" Wittgenstein, 1931, Culture and Value. Anticipating TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wittgenstein, 1937, C&V, on Catholic dogma: "The effect of making men think in accordance with dogmas perhaps in the form of certain graphic propositions will be very peculiar: i'm not thinking of these dogmas determining men's opinions but rather as completely controlling the expression of all opinions. People will live under an absolute palpable tyranny, although without being able to say they are not free. I think the Catholic Church does something rather like this. For dogma is expressed in the form of an assertion and is unshakable but at the same time any practical opinion can be made to harmonize with it, admittedly more easily in some cases than in others."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10335" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T10:08:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson himself is strangely silent on all this Straussianism. Off enjoying his water jet pack, no doubt, the esoteric implications of which--don't get me started.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10336" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T10:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously though, thank you Jeffrey Bond for these insights.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10337" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My pleasure, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10338" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T10:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have an eye on him, Joel. ((supersubtle Jaffaite. shhhh))</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10339" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T10:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wittgenstein was right about an "absolute palpable tyranny," but he did not rightly predict who would be tyrannizing over whom. The tyranny of relativism reigns supreme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then too what is liberty? cf. Leo's Libertas (with hat tip to Jeffrey)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10341" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-01T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-01T10:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond how sad about Kass! I really loved The Hungry Soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10342" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is indeed the question, John. Leo, I think, gives us the answer. And without his Libertas we would be in great danger of believing that the religious freedom so much lauded these days is actually real freedom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10343" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I'm saddened by that as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10344" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T10:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sad for Kass, yes. But ultimately quite comic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I am still pondering Virgil -- nefas indeed -- and have to defend my position that it be properly overthrown. It gives some insight I think into whence the Straussians come. They see only the darkness. Those passages are rich and ambiguous, or at least very difficult.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10346" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T10:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Given an earlier discussion some of us had about TAC graduates having difficulty achieving success in the world, I think the tremendous worldly success of Kass (appointed by President Bush, etc.) is worth contemplating. Few come back from the kingdom of success alive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10347" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Straussianism is a curious form of gnosticism. The select few have a special knowledge that "saves" them, but their salvation is, as John suggests, all darkness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10348" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T10:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Their political deeds are nefarious as well. It is not an idle gnosis.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10349" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T11:07:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Jeffrey Bond writes : "Few come back from the kingdom of success alive."<br />Perfecting one's art while in turn being a worldly failure is an art unto itself, and an art few wives appreciate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10350" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fact remains that anyone who wants to read important books and talk about them contra the barbarians today will find themselves in the same room with "Strausssians".<br />Jeff's comments here remind me of my own critiques of TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10351" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And whatever your particular experience with Kass (and how long ago was that) it's a but much to simply bash him, of course. A bit of circular firing squad-ism on TNET. His books are often fantastic, and stand apart from someone like Bloom, who was more clearly far worse.<br />IF you are telling the truth of your encounter with him, one must consider why he would, over time, work so hard for the sake of myths. My guess is that, over time, he's somewhat conflicted, no? It makes little sense otherwise.<br />None of those Straussians who move in that direction usually sustain it. They become run of the mill modern scholars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's bashing? Did I miss that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, the claim is the Leon Kass is a fraud based on a self-reported conversation that happened at some point in the past.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10354" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also I had 0% encounters with Straussians studying ethics as a grad student, I find "same room" comment hyperbolic. Discourse is so compartmentalized these days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10355" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Name another group on the greater scene that wants to read "great books" - what would be hyperbolic would be universalizing your own anecdotal experience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10356" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Discovering and sharing the alarming underbellies of prominent scholars is hardly bashing. Deception and fraudulence should be talked about openly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10357" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, put it this way: we have Kass's books and career on one hand, and we have an anecdote from someone on Facebook on the other. And even if the anecdote is true you still have a lot of thank Kass for.<br />But it's more fun to vehemently disagree withe about everything, I suppose. Hah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10358" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also think it very hard to write off Cicero as a mere skeptic. He seeks out Aristotle, and holds to him between Stoics and Epicureans. He is a skeptic of a sort, but he's much more interesting and complicated than he is generally made out to be, and he moves far closer towards the natural law than Aristotle does.<br />He's always moving towards Aristotle in a curious way, and moderating stoicism while fending off Epicureanism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10359" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The claim seemed to be that his entire life's work was for the purpose of deception. That's pretty extreme, and also somewhat hard to believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It could be true, but I bet this happened early in Kass's career if so, at least 20-30 years ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10361" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plenty of prominence scholars are deceptive, at least that was my experience when I "got to know them." I had a similar experience with Jean Porter for example</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, true. Human beings are deceptive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10363" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T11:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But bashing Jeffery who first hand saw the destructive influence of the Straussians is ok i suppose? I much more limitedly saw the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10364" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I probably grew agree with you about Ciscero though Matthew</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ Gd spellcheck</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10366" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T11:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not bashing him. I'm just cautioning denigrating a lifetime of serious intellectual and political work of a man based on one story about him, especially when he's one of the few somewhat on your side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10367" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He has published amazing works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10368" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Besides I love tons of philosophers who were in crazy error about some stuff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10369" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T11:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The whole finding truth wherever we can thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One can respect without being naive. I have a friend who respects them much but at the same time refutes their errors or attempts to (as now he is engaged).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10371" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T11:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is what Jeff said similar to your critique of TAC, Matthew J. Peterson? (Also, his critique wouldn't mean that no one could profitably read or engage with Kass.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10372" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T12:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and to Andrew while true we take whatever is good we must refute or point out the errors too but more on that later when i will bring up a point on liberty that should bring home the point well (a piece by Pink pater directed me to read).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10373" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T12:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Jeff has a keenly honed sense of the worst of Strauss and Straussians as I do of TAC. Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10374" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T12:22:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">For what its worth, my conversation with Kass took place in the Spring of 1979 at the University of Chicago in his office. I shared the conversation at the time with a number of other students in the class, especially the Socrates figure in Kass' seminar who provided me with the intellectual means to escape the seduction. I have to laugh to myself as I offer this "evidence" in response to Matthew's doubts about my veracity. I see I have been put in the position of a "rape" victim who has to bring forth witnesses to the effect that she told friends soon after the rape that she had been violated. (My apologies for the potentially offensive analogy, but a kind of intellectual and even spiritual violation was being proposed by Kass.) For whatever it is worth--and it may mean something to many in this particular forum--God is my witness that I am telling the truth about my encounter with Kass. Having said that, I must add that the purpose of relating this story was certainly not to bash Kass nor put together a firing squad. As Adrw Lng as quite rightly noted, deception and fraudulence should be exposed. Those who admire Kass should be warned of hidden dangers. As for Kass' writings, I have admitted that they can be helpful, so there is no disagreement there. But I think, Matthew, that you are mistaken about Bloom. I knew him quite well and he was very open to serious philosophical discussion (despite his mocking me for my question to Benardete); nor did Bloom try to recruit me into myth making. I strongly suspect that Bloom finally did not think the world was one of objective order and meaning, but he was less interested in imposing that view on his students. Certainly the man had problems, but people knew where he was coming from on those issues. <br />Now, why would Kass work so hard to cultivate these myths? That, I think, is an excellent question, and one, you may note, I even asked Kass himself (as I reported in my self-reported conversation!). If you recall, I asked him why bother being salutary if there is nothing to be salutary about? Kass' answer to me was quite unsatisfactory, but that was his answer at the time. Would he answer differently now? Let's hope so. And let's keep him in our prayers. Certainly it is possible he has changed his position since the Spring of 1979. I hasten to add, however, that one of my student who went to Harvard and studied with Harvey Mansfield, Jr., had the occasion to talk with Kass at one of his lectures there. I had warned this young lady about the Straussians, and about Kass in particular, and she discovered through her conversation a Kass who very much fit my description of him. When she spoke with him after the lecture, she made clear that she was convinced (for more than just salutary reasons) that nature truly was teleological, and he then become very uncomfortable, especially after she offered my name in response to his query as to where she had learned about telelogy. Yes, this is all "self-reported," but I would be glad to put you in touch with this young lady if you truly doubt that I am being truthful. So, is Kass conflicted? Let's hope so. Does his position make little sense otherwise? I could not agree with you more. Kass' position makes little sense, yet it has not prevented him for achieving great success. That, of course, is my point.<br />Finally, I must acknowledge my debt to the Straussians because without them I do not think I would be Catholic today. My Straussian professors at Kenyon put me on a path, however inadvertently, that brought me to the Church's door. And so I agree with Matthew that they are among the few who read great books, and that their writings can certainly help those who are searching. But buyer beware.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does 'Straussian' mean anything other than 'post-modern'?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10376" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T12:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what it means to people, but if you are going to call people postmodern who defend much of what you defend and have fought those you oppose politically in serious ways that's on you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T12:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the term 'postmodern' is an insult.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T12:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Jeff is telling the truth - but that was in 1979, and a lot has transpired since re Kass, and what he has done intellectually and politically speaks for itself.<br />It would make sense that a younger, idealistic (hah) Straussian type would speak thus.<br />But in the decades since, Bloom's Closing of the American Mind was to my mind far more Nietzschean wrapped in anti-postmodern clothes than anything Kass has written.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, define postmodern.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10380" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T12:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But sure: let the buyer always beware.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10381" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose that what characterizes postmodernity is a looking back to the past for culture and philosophy having recognized (more or less explicitly) that modernity has ruptured our connection to the past and as left us bereft of culture and philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10382" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(212, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T12:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I love what Jeff says about Bloom at his best here. Seems very true. I would have loved to study with him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10383" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T12:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">New KidSafe TNET Tatoo<br />Home Application Kit<br />(Guaranteed to wash off with warm soap and water)<br />$9.99 while supplies last<br />1-800-TNET-NOW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10384" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T13:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To elaborate further: Edward Langley noted above that it is my position that, with regards to Theology in general, we are in a 'neo-patristic' period. Not, of course, with regards to authority, but rather with regards to how we stand towards doctrine. I think modernity and its consequent intellectual customs have alienated us from Catholic doctrine. <br />I think there is something similar going on in Philosophy; perhaps a neo-pre-Socratic period, where we are trying to find philosophy again, after had been effectively destroyed in the world. This is why I think guys like Heidegger are great, even as I disagree with them. <br />Anyway, I was just trying to understand what you meant by Straussian, Matthew J. Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10385" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T13:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, I appreciate your vote of confidence concerning my telling the truth about my encounter with Kass. It is interesting, is it not, that our earlier argument about TAC grads and worldly success has coalesced around the career of Kass. You wrote: "Well, put it this way: we have Kass's books and career on one hand, and we have an anecdote from someone on Facebook on the other. And even if the anecdote is true you still have a lot of thank Kass for." That juxtaposition, I think, is helpful to the debate about worldly success. On one side of the see-saw you place the books and career of Kass. My sorry ass goes on the other side. Clearly on the see-saw of success I am going to be sitting up in the air for a long time. But I would not trade sides with him for the world, and I encourage discouraged TACers to look carefully at the price of success.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10386" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T13:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff's comments are more than welcome here.<br />They lead to a larger question: to give Leo and friends their best case, teleology makes them nervous because it seems to them, even when one rejects scientism, to be an open question.<br />Which it is. We need to further this debate. We need to push the argument of the Physics, such as it still stands, and see what happens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff: I'm not talking about Kass's success, but the substance of his actual books and political action.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10388" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T13:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best of the Straussians think they avoid this problem by espousing natural right instead of natural law (which is obviously dependent on teleology), but their natural right is either toothless or it too must take nature as standard for an intrinsic reason. Either way, the teleological argument is key, try as one might to get out of it.<br />But we do ourselves no favors if we just assume among ourselves and judge others by means of the hermeneutic of inquisition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10389" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T13:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff-- what would you say about Kass' work on Bush's Committee for Bioethics, or whatever it was called? I am having a hard time reconciling what you are saying with what I read there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10390" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Horton" data-date="2014-09-01T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Horton at 2014-09-01T13:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wouldn't have gone to TAC without the experience of reading "Closing of the American Mind" but I came to see that Bloom was a carnival huckster - and thought his success was hilarious...considering who he really was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, that is a good question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel I don't think calling Strauss postmodern as some sort of specifying term is accurate, the way for example you might describe Lacan as distinctively postmodern</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10393" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T13:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I know you are focusing on another argument, but do you object to my understanding of postmodernity? Is it a fair to thing to consider Straussians, thus. <br />For the record, in a certain respect, I think we are all postmoderns.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T13:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that the apparent substance of someone like Kass can be helpful to bring others to something truly substantial. But it may not. It is much like the role the sophists play in the Platonic dialogues. Should one go to listen to them or not? Kass, Bernadete and Bloom are like Gorgias, Protagoras, Hippias, etc. And their success seems predicated on making whatever is substantial acceptable to those with money to pay for their services. They sell their wares, but they themselves do not really know what is intellectually nutritious and what is not. If you go to their lectures without a Socrates to accompany you, then you are likely to ingest harmful substances. Plato has given us access to these sophists through his writings, but the presence of Socrates in the dialogues saves us from the sophist siren song.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng, what about "Straussians?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T13:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well - Michael Horton - see Jeff's comments above - Bloom was no carnival huckster, even if he was appropriated in ironic ways by the political right given his underlying views. And Closing was fantastic in many ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10397" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T13:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, equating "success" with Leo Kass's success seems a bit beside the point, to me. I would just like TACers find satisfying work, and support their families, and get tenure-track jobs when they so aim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10398" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Daniel just nailed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10399" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T13:19:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">For those who think it is hard to believe someone's entire life's work could be based on deception, I have one word: Maciel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ouch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Horton" data-date="2014-09-01T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Horton at 2014-09-01T13:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Glad to hear you think so - it lit me up and I still read it with pleasure. Jeff & I discussed Bloom at the time - it was painful to hear that such a dazzling thinker was an atheist Nietzschean!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10402" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T13:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, but I think we're resisting the idea that Kass is the sort of depraved psychopath that Maciel was</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is fair, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10404" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But just as they have an esoteric philosophy, may they not (which is an easier deception) have an esoteric policy? I have not followed Kass but have others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously when I keep referring to Kass's life and work/political action, I refer on part to his role on the Bioethics council, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though, I do think it's perilous for Catholics to miss out on the Christian philosophical revival of Benedict and JPII. Kass was so politically accurate on scientific issues of human life, but lacked passion and poetry, in relation to the barbarity of those issues. Human stem cell research and Gosnell are equally wrong for a bunch of the same philosophical reasons, but those reasons seem to fall short of emphasizing the beauty of life or describing the moral outrage in a good way. It's more than an academic trend that has got the world to here, so it will take more to coax it from the cave. Benedict and JPII seem to be the only ones able to descibe those big moral issues in a way that warms the heart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, sorry to take so long to respond. Comments are coming out fast and furiously! It has been a long time since I read what Kass wrote concerning stem-cell research, etc., but I remember at the time saying to myself that it was in keeping with the Kass I knew at the U of C. In other words, he was opposed to unlimited scientific study, but his reasoning was weak and only suggestive of the right reasons. I cannot give you particular examples--I would have to look at it again. But I am quite sure it was weak even if it was on the right side of the question. Now, would someone who knew the right reasons be able to do any better politically? Perhaps not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, Kass speaheaded Bush's entirely unethical stem-cell compromise to allow research on existing human embryonic stem cell lines. I remember that well. We opposed it with everything we had. It was the beginning of the end for Bush, not because of any particular opposition, but poetic justice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10409" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T13:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">James Patterson - thoughts? No offense taken if you decide to remain prudently silent and do work that will help you obtain tenure instead. Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10410" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-01T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-01T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, there is unethical and then there is prudent and necessary compromise and there is the best you can get. And we always dispute which is which.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10411" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lucas J. Mather" data-date="2014-09-01T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lucas J. Mather at 2014-09-01T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Very impressive. Thank God for Thomas Aquinas College and for their professors and these kids.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, they weren't really called "pre-existing embryonic stem cell lines" were they, they were actually called human persons, and they were never created to die as microscopic lab rats.<br />Plus, all of the life-saving discoveries are coming from ethical cord blood research, not from these embryonic martyrs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, it has been a while for me, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10414" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T13:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please just remember that Kass "morally authorized" President Bush to approve human embryonic stem cell "research" on the human stem cell lines that had been created at NIH under Clinton. That was the beginning of the end of the Bush Administration, and nothing was learned from that useless slaughter. Bush caved. The cures are coming from ethical research.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10415" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-01T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-01T14:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My thoughts seem shallow in comparison, but what we're talking about strikes me as the fight between the perfect and the good. I'm more comfortable with modernity tha most traditional Catholics, and I used my APSA paper on Fulton Sheen to make that case. Kass made his arguments and got people to listen. More hardline Catholics made theirs and failed. One can blame liberalism all one wants, but that's an old trick to rationalize failure. The right response is to redouble efforts, perhaps reconsider the rhetoric or argumentation, and take the best from the options given as a result. If not then your only alternative is the front porch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott - in addition to cannibalizing embryos, it is also unfortunate that embryonic stem cell research has moved ahead because it makes somewhat ill-informed pro-life Catholics paranoid about good scientific research. <br />The ice-bucket challenge has raised over $90 million for ALS research. Many organizations are tainted because they participate in some degree in embryonic stem cell research. For example, ASLA has one, privately funded study using embryonic stem cells... Now many Catholics are broadcasting far and wide not to participate in the ice bucket challenge because it is immoral. They have not done their homework on organizations using adult stem cells. <br />So - laziness of pro-life Catholics perpetuates the stereotype that Catholics are anti-science...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kass's big decision was not perfect vs good though. No good came of it. It was a decision that authorized killing embryonic human life. It was his defining moment, and his only defense is to obscure the pefect vs good rationale. Plus it heralded the beginning of the neo-con reign of terror in DC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-01T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-01T14:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, fundamentalists Protestants tried the feont porch already, hoping to free-ride Mainliners of the first half of the 20th c. How'd that work out for them?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T14:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly we don't want the best to be the enemy of the good, but I think the debate here is about the good. It is not a failure to defend the truth and be rejected. It is a failure to defend what is false and succeed. Perhaps Kass got people to listen. But what did they listen to? I have to look again more closely at what he wrote, but I recall at the time thinking it was weak and compromised. I will grant that a better argument may not have succeeded either, but that kind of failure doesn't worry me. Prudence has to have one hand on the true principles and the other hand on the circumstances, but it cannot let go of the truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10421" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-01T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-01T14:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who are you convincing with that approach to stem-cells? You're not wrong, as the Big Lebowski quotation goes, but perhaps...? If folks listen to Kass instead of you, perhaps it's not their fault but yours. Folks listened to Sheen on communism for decades. He did something right. What are you doing wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10422" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is, permitting embryonic stem cell research on human embryos (stem cell lines), in any situation -- even the human embryonic stem cell lines created under Clinton -- is morally bankrupt. End of story really. That's like saying it's okay for the Nazis to kill the Jews in Auschwitz as the Jews were placced in Auschwitz before D-Day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So there was something vacant in Kass's philosophy. It did not always support the good or the perfect. It did support an entirely gratuitous and unethical policy in the Bush Administration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10424" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">People were fed a crock about embryonic stem cells by celebrities like Michael J Fox and Mary Tyler Moore and Christopher Reeve - and the media lapped it up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bush did not even need to take up the issue. Guess who leaked his decision to the WSJ?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10426" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Btw - the most successful stem cell programs today are adult - taken from the patient's own body.<br />Dr. Tony Windebank Mayo Clinic and Dr. Richard Burt at Northwestern University Hospital.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christopher Smith has been the champion of ethical stem cell research for decades. He's the real hero here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-01T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-01T14:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not the end of the story, but pretending it is a lovely though false consolation for the failure. There should be no quarter for those who wrap themselves up in the Garment of Truth and proclaim that Americans have failed them. There instead should be earnest prayer for forgiveness because of that failure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10429" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T14:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem I have with your analysis, James, is that your position seems to suggest prudence needs to figure out how to "win". That is not true. Prudence must assess the particular circumstances, but it must do so under the light of what is unchanging and true. Perhaps I misunderstand you, but you seem to suggest that an argument that doesn't persuade somehow has failed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Suggesting that refusing to participate in the ALS challenge is laziness or confusing the perfect w/ the good is nothing less than laughable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then maybe you have not had the same comments in your feed, Andw Lng.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10432" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T14:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman is neothomism postmodern?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everything is post-modern right now, except the Art criticism of Carl Schmitt. Post-modernism has a book of false dogma, and everyone seems to be understanding doctrine along those lines.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10434" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">James, i can't take you seriously at all. at all. By prudence we also judge what battles we can fight and hope to succeed in. The deck is sometimes stacked. In any case your ridicule and insinuous accusation is offensive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ALS isn't laughable - it kills in perhaps the most torturous way imagine able in a number of years - and I certainly think raising money for research is very pro-life. I also think people with ALS will be the first wave of targets the culture of death seeks to eliminate on the other end of the spectrum, and we have an obligation to assist. I'm sorry you find that laughable. <br />By the way - these are my Pastors - picture taken a couple of years ago:<br />http://www.kenoshanews.com/.../i_would_loved_to_be_healed...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10436" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-01T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-01T14:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do make such an argument, and in a democracy it is not enough to be right. You must persuade others too. Preferably those who vote. There are plenty of people making wrong arguments, and they are not doing it for fun, usually, and they often care nothing about you or your Truth. You can stop worrying about persuasion once you've built the Thomistic monarchy that heeds the authority of the See. Until then, make like Tocqueville's priest on Polish freedom and PREACH.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is my Pastor now in the wheelchair - diagnosed with ALS just over a year ago. He can no longer speak, eat, swallow or breathe on his own.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-01T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-01T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm enjoying this but have to run. And I'm not even out of bombs to throw! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kass was not persusasive. Kass's stem-cell decision informed an executive act of the president. It was not democratic. During his campaign, Bush stated he would oppose embryonic stem cell research without equivocation. There was no public referendum on the NIH stem cell lines.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The crock re: embryonic stem cell research is completely counter productive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10441" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like a flock of Swallows, they fly in no particular direction, but they call that direction truth, and when the course of the Swallow changes, the paid philosophers scramble to call that new direction truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott's last two points are on point though I wouldn't say philosophers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Swallows, too, not Sparrows. Too much poetry, I suppose. Or not enough!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10444" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">James - trot out morally confused, ill celebrities (Parkinson's, etc...) promising the moon re: the benefits of embryonic stem cell research and broadcast it to the general public - and couple that with laziness re: ethical, successful alternative therapies - throw in some ignorant and/or lazy Catholics who don't know the difference, make it look like "pro-lifers" are anti-science and you have the perfect atmosphere to "persuade" voters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am still wondering, James, whether you are openly advocating that in a democracy we should make efforts to persuade the many irrespective of the truth. At this point, nothing you have said in response has suggested that you think otherwise. Is it your position that the truth can and should be defended through false means?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10446" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T14:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Embryonic stem cell research is completely counterproductive, to society at large, and to the human embryo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10447" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T14:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mark my words. The quickest way to derail a career is to say anything close to truth. I have seen it too many times. And they are shouted down loudest of all. I was only recently reading about a whole class of academics and journalists who fear to speak out for this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10448" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T14:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Correct Scott.<br />Like IVF - a torturous process, also immoral - and yet NaProTechnology which is moral, is a significantly more successful treatment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not know that the high levels of academia were so tyrranical, John Ruplinger; when I was at CUA, I did come across some professors in the English Department who seemed to hate me because of the false ideology they thought I had embraced during my undergraduate years. I wasn't smart enough to take them on, so I just kind of cowered by myself in the library. Bush hired lots of well-informed Catholics who believe in truth without compromise. He just made a couple bone head decisions, on a couple rare that shouldn't admit compromise -- like bombing cities that have cradled Eatsern Christian civilization for centuries.<br />I thought universities were all about truth. Truth always rises, like a cork, does it not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10450" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T15:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Truth was crucified and would be again, led by the same, the scribes and pharisees. Their hatred is becoming palpable. . . . only the cheering would be louder and Pilate wouldnt wash his hands with water.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think this truth at the expense of tenure thing is worthy of discussion, in light of TNET. Tenure is a thread, and so is a four year degree. Can we tie these loose ends together? Should Catholic liberal arts colleges double-down on truth and strategize for a breakthrough in academia, or should they make wise concessions? And does this question make TNET a conspiracy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Faith is bolstered by reason, and this synthesis illumines the content of modern academia, how can we lose the argument over time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-01T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-01T15:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng. Yes, I think so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think, by answering the question, Daniel, and including a third party, you have made TNET a consipracy, implicating us all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10455" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True. We are all to blame. I am only implicating the usual suspects (viz. all of us but with distinctions). It is the same in every age. We just think we are better. not so. not so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thought you addressed me, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps this conversation is better for suited after nighfall, for this is "dark business."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"We like to discuss dark business in the dark." -- Thorin Oakenshield, The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10459" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T16:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come to think of it, James, Tocqueville's warning about the effect of majority opinion on the courtier spirit and national character, its omnipotence and tyranny make the Truth particularly odious. And is that opinion unmolded? [But these are the SAME opinions that Newman speaks of in "Illative Sense" as well as in Bacon, to make no mention of Plato and Aristotle.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that TAC is proposing the very same thing proposed by Gandalf, countless centuries ago, to retrieve stolen treasure from the Dragon, and to restore those treasures to their proper place or origin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tolkien was a great historian. I just wish he wrote fiction!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10462" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All right, James. I apologize. We proceed from different assumptions. I thought you were saying something else. But your most basic false assumption is that you would be given a fair public hearing. In the public sphere it doesn't happen. I have been involved in campaigns and seen it from a distance. Yet, precisely what you are saying is unclear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10463" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T16:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I see you all had a busy weekend!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUY NOW! For a limited time only...<br />New KidSafe TNET Tatoo<br />Special College Dorm Room Application Kit<br />$19.99<br />1-800-TNET-NOW<br />(WARNING: This is a permanent tatoo. Will not wash off with soap and water)<br />Order yours now. Catholic liberal arts students are standing by to take your call. Order while supplies last.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thread losing steam?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will it end with a bang, or a whimper?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T18:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A whang. No...a bimper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-01T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-01T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm so confused right now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10469" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T18:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truth will always out, throughout time, humanity's course has always born this out, as long as there are poets and scholars who seek God, as long as there are students willing to learn, and long as there are teachers and tutoes wiliing to support their quest. Even in the darkest times, when all hope was lost, humanity always found its way out of the cave, in age after age; faith has always shone her lamp; as when the pre-Socratics rulled the world and the arts, and delighted everyone with their dim ray of hope, soon after there came an even greater light, then a flourishing, then a great age of suffering, but then a great era, when east and west were united in Holy civilization; followed by even more harmful monsters, always replacing themselves with God, there is nothing new under the sun; the man of power who advocates morality in place of God is no different than the King pretending to govern the teaching of the Church of Rome; it all falls apart, but as long as there is you, there is hope, and humaity's best days are not behind, but straight ahead. So keep going, keep going up the hill, keep going, and sing!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10470" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T18:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fear not the confusion of The Thread. That's just the shining light of the sun. Bid farewell to your shackles</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10471" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T18:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like Scott much, much better than Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-01T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-01T18:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Revisiting stem cells - good article - donations now top $90million.<br />http://denvercatholicregister.org/.../ice-bucket.../...<br />The ice bucket challenge’s ethical surprise - Denver Catholic Register<br />The Most Rev. Samuel J. Aquila is the eighth bishop of...<br />DENVERCATHOLICREGISTER.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T18:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott is something like the thread's clown or fool. His next incarnation he'll make fools of us all -- or is that has made?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10474" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No just me I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All i know is that the farther down the thread i go the more fool i feel. I will be a complete imbecile soon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10476" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T18:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's turtles all the way down, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Statement: Ernest Hemingway is a better writer than Jane Austen. Discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T19:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like Scott is Peregrine, Strauss version.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no one wants my opinion of recent literature. But how do you like Rip van Winkle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">....not....taking....the bait.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10481" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(197, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love that story, John! One of the best American legends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">isak. That is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hemingway's characters are practically real people. Austen writes about cardboard cutouts who all sound like Jane Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heeheehee</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10486" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">....still.....resisting......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My nickname was Rip in grade school. Half the boys were named John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No for real. Everyone tells me I'm missing out on her incredible insight into human nature, especially the relationship between female and male nature - and I'm just not seeing it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen's men were like her too. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">First of all, there would have been no Hemmingway without Austen. She is really the inventor of the modern novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10491" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do believe that honor belongs to Cervantes...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Secondly, Hemmingway's characters were all just lightly fictionalized versions of people he knew, so if that's what you mean by "actually real people," then sure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nonsense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Balderdash!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's hardly literary merit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">James roasts Austen in Portrait of a Lady</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10497" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some of Austen's characters are ridiculous, but those ones are also hilarious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10498" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have no dog . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10499" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Her main characters are incredibly nuanced, and she is the best writer of romance in the ENTIRE ENGLISH LANGUAGE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I for sure have a dog in *this* fight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10501" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree that there would be no Hemingway without Austen. He's not indebted to her or influenced by her in the slightest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait so lightly fictionalized < incredibly nuanced?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">SO she is the one i should blame. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10504" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, especially if your understanding of the people you are lightly fictionalizing is shallow at best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10505" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is indebted to her in the sense that every novelist after her is indebted to her</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And CLEARLY the best writer of romance in the entire English language is Nicholas Sparks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10507" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do I allow myself to be trolled in this way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't think there are any better writers of romance than Austen? Austen's romances are so...well, trivial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you mean, trivial? Like, no one dies?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They're quite nice. They're very safe romances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10511" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you're complaining that no one dies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10512" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha, no. I'm saying the stakes are never higher in an Austen novel than whether or not a young lady is marriageable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">EXQUISITE. James' Lady Blackbird . . . . something of a meretrix running a moulin rouge = Jane Austen writing books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So the stakes are never higher in an Austen novel then the thing that young lady's ENTIRE LIFE hinges upon?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10515" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A novel does not need to be an epic tragedy to be great</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Her stories practically never leave their figurative parlor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lizzy goes to like five places in P and P.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10518" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And anyway, so what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah, her cushy high class life. How awful that she might not find a man!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly. So what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">she was just a bitter young . . . </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10522" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, now I don't think you've ever read her novels</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10523" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or if you did, you weren't paying attention</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10524" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the protagonists in Jane Austen are mostly not guaranteed cushy high class lives. In fact they are pretty much universally doomed to penury and humiliating subservience unless they do marry well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The exception is Emma</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know what, I can admit that there might be something missing in my soul, or something broken, that might be obstructing me from enjoying her stories. But I find her infuriating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay...let's not do Emma. Emma was the worst of the lot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I brought up Emma because she does have and will continue to have a cushy life regardless of marriage prospects</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10529" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, all I ask is that you admit that there is something missing or broken in your soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kudos for using penury in a sentence by the way</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, we can be done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10533" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow you'd think I helped Mark Twain dig her up and beat her over the head with her own shin-bone!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10534" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, you aren't also a former tutor who is 30 years older than me, are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But James goes a bit too far and he was an imp himself. Austen's P and P was all right except the ending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because I've been unintentionally disrespectful to my elders and betters quite a bit on this thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So your manner changes depending on your interlocutor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10538" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shouldn't it, ideally?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10539" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T19:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Rhetoric 101, seems to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just clarifying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So when you discover the identity of some of your conversationalists, what was formerly intentional disrespect becomes unintentional disrespect?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10543" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T19:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't hate me, but I would replace Emma with Middlemarch. It would make a nice follow-up to Feuerbach, since George Eliot was the first to translate that work into English, if I'm not mistaken.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10545" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:35:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even if Austen was mediocre (which she wasn't), she is still better than Hemingway, who, let's face it, isn't even in the running for best novelist of his century.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10546" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Middlemarch is better than Emma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it's too long.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THANK you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course I'm not. But I am pointing out that you're reacting like I've attacked you personally. I've criticized Austen. Surely you can handle that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10550" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can handle it. This is how I handle it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10551" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re: Middlemarch-- too long for senior seminar, I mean, not too long simply speaking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10552" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Emma may be the worst of the lot, but it is still inestimably better than anything Hemingway wrote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're telling me Emma > The Old Man and the Sea? Okay. Why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weren't you the one complaining that nothing happens in Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my comment about your soul was mostly a joke, btw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, I can't tell, are you actually offended? I thought the entire purpose of your comments was to make me flip out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak is the son of the ex tutor. Isak is class of 10, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No no, sorry if I gave that impression! The Sparks comment was entirely facetious, I admit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually I just remembered. She belongs in level two. sappy schmooze is not great literature. Just because she makes you swoon . . . but she is superficial. I mean the life she depicts which is not all her fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wodzinski would say that if one didn't appreciate Emma, one should read the Nicomachean Ethics again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not offended at all and I'm sorry for pushing your buttons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She is anything but superficial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10563" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't Wodzinski's favorite movie Army of Darkness?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think nothing happens in The Old Man. It's actually pretty epic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ooohhhh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with John. I think she's charming but that's about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, push away. It's fine. But this is what happens when you do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Superficial is a better word than trivial for what I mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10569" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">She is only superficial if you think human families and relationships are superficial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10570" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">havent read Emma in a long while. I will say this. She is overrated and her men are wilting noodles. How did that society reproduce?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nieto said that when it comes to the English language it was either Emma or Lear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, I refuse to believe that you are serious. If you are, then I'm sorry, but you aren't worth trying to convince</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10573" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well if John Nieto thinks Emma is the pinnacle of the English language, then I better take another look. I'm very, very skeptical of that claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, why do you go right for the ad hominem?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I went for the ad hominem after trying several other approaches</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ad hominems are wonderful - but you don't break out the big guns first </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has to be possible to discuss a book that some love and some despise. Taste can't be the sole arbiter here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So how do we do it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bingley is a wilting noodle, but Darcy, Knightly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the society was superficial. I am overcompensating for too much adulation. I Ioved Austen as a boy. And dont mind watching renditions with the wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record, IMO, Emma is only Austen's 4th best work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10583" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">aHA. I knew you were arguing against the movies, and not the books</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmmm.... I actually think it's her third best</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i read all as a boy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, I could see that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and taught P and P.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mansfield Park is sappy schmooze? mmmkay</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10589" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, maybe try them again as a man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^HAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a misogynistic habit to dismiss books that primarily depict marriage and romance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which do you put in first and second, Samantha Cohoe?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks. Set me up for that one, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and taught P and P. And i deserve Samantha's vituperation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1) Pride and Prejudice 2) Persuasion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one is dismissing books that primarily depict marriage and romance. Just the bad ones. And anyway why are you assuming men aren't just as interested in those subjects as women? That seems to be a pretty biased statement to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10598" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T19:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">disclaimer I have only read the last 30 comments</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that when that seems to be the main content of the complaint, it's likely motivated by (probably unconscious) misogyny</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More than I have! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, you singlehandedly generated the last 30 comments, at least</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So once again, your problem is not really with the opinion but with the one who holds it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bingly and Darcey are better comparative to eunuchs. yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I'm saying the opinion expressed misogyny</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T19:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen herelf admitted P&P was too too cheerful. but, again, Mansfield Park... her last book, and my personal favorite. it's Austen, but it's got a clear serious moral core</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An opinion doesn't express. An opinion is expressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">eunuchs meaning many of the other men</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry? Why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10609" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T19:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a dog in the Jane Austen fight. Let is all strive to speak like Bingly from time to time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't be a pedant. an opinion does both</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An opinion doesn't express itself. Don't call names.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10612" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T19:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is with this thread spelling names wrong, it's Bingley folks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Nina.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10614" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T19:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is a big "people who will never meet in real life but I wish that they have X conversation someday" dream</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10615" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you know all of us Adrw? Cause I mostly have no idea who I'm talking to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">'06ers excepted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T19:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No-one has responded on Mansfield Park, so I suggest everyone go read it carefully and then we can really talk Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10618" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T19:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once loved Austen but she glorifies AFFECTION and dismisses DUTY. James was right to call her a panderer though he was hardly better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dismisses duty? How?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10620" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T19:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">unless John is preparing one of those massive posts right now, in which case I will gladly eat my words.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, what is wrong with affection?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, Mansfield Park. Again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10623" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, what about Emma's filial duty to her father.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mansfield Park is extremely duty-focused, but it isn't her best work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">While we're on the subject of Senior Seminar, can someone explain to me why the greatest novel of the 19th c. isn't on the list? What is with the absence of Stendhal's Charterhouse of Parma? Is it because he was a Bonapartiste?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Possibly the most noble aspect of Emma's personality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Huh, haven't read that. Is it really that great?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well now you will make me reread her. Talk me into it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Amazeballs. So good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Emma or Mansfield?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10631" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't discover Stendhal until I was 31, but since I did, I've read just about everything he wrote. But Charterhouse of Parma is his masterwork.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T20:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha I know most of the people who are in the younger grades commenting on this thread, from working at the college. <br />And Hemingway has his moments of greatness, fwiw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do chicks dig Darcy? If so, why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I would say Mansfield...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10635" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">People have fewer notions about it than her other books so it's easier to read without getting biased one way or another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10636" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T20:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't heard of "Amazeballs." Who's it by?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My description of Stendhal's The Charterhouse of Parma. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrw Lng apparently, I cannot tag you, haha. I did want to chime in and say I thought A Moveable Feast was an enjoyable book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Untergang des Abendlandes: http://www.nbcnews.com/.../cray-yolo-amazeballs-added...<br />'Cray,' 'YOLO,' 'Amazeballs' Added to Oxford Dictionary - NBC News<br />Pop culture and Internet slang are becoming more...<br />NBCNEWS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ our lives are a facepalm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you heard it first here on TNET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10642" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like Darcy, every lib'rally educated man should come with carriages and castles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10643" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear, I did once love Austen but her star has faded. My taste is for Pomeral or fast from wine. So take my criticism with that in mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me and movies dont get along any more. My poor wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10645" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW i drink box wine. But i can afford good books. Which are most, free.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have I mentioned that I really enjoy New Scott?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />The problem with Emma is that Austin didn't persuade me to care one way or the other about any of her characters and I in turn did not care what happened to them. <br />I mean other than the father, she did persuade me to want to throw him down a well to save him from is his miserable self.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10648" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And thanks for the recommendation, Daniel. I will read this "Amazeballs" of which you speak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mansfield it is. Are there any men in it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Franklin Salazar has advanced the only good criticism of Emma so far. Emma is a total brat, so it's pretty easy to get fed up with her. Really, though, let's at least spell Austen right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe Emma is Austen's fourth best, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. I just membered Emma was the only i never liked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">uhhhhhh. you troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10654" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen? The best writer of romance in the English language? You guys are cray</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T20:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Sense and Sensibility in contrast persuades us to care very much about the outcome. Or compare Emma to David Copperfield, <br />Uriah Heep the best villain all time falling short only of dracula makes us care deeply about the outcome.<br />I want a book to rip at my soul where I'm in fear of what is to come of the characters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10656" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish we had a Jane Austen or Harriet Beecher Stow today. Sheer artistry and ability to capute the shades of emotion, like a masterpiece painting. What light they could shed on today's issues, so that the public could make right judgments about pressing issues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10657" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen = Albrecht Durer of masterpiece painting.<br />Paints a wicked rabbit though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael-- Care to advance another candidate?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's talk about the issues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10660" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I'm a critic. I only tear things down</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and as far as "owes a debt to" Aristotle owes a debt to the pre-Socratics, but you wouldn't say that he passed them by?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10662" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me know what you think, Samantha. The Penguin edition has a good translation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-01T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-01T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am all for spelling author's names right. Hemingway included.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10664" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was just my "first of all." But I don't think the debt is the same, Hemmingway's is much greater. And regardless, he didn't surpass her</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10665" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh no, Hemingway sucks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least you are consistent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen, IMHO, writes beautiful prose and very well constructed plots about . . . .wait for it. . . . rabbits</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10669" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">domestic ones</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know you guys' scam, you're just trying to whip up the masses so we get past 1100 before midnight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's like Durer's painting of a beetle.... looks like a beetle... life like. Masterfully done. But at the end of the day all you have is a painting of a beetle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10672" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like domesticity. It's interesting. It's an enormous part of life. It is not comparable to rabbits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">have you read Watership Down?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No way. Austen is writing about courtship and marriage, which is a lot bigger than a beetle in a painting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know it's about rabbits, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Flannery O'connor is swell. She was a good sport. Loved the peacock too. The king of birds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10678" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hemingway doesn't suck. But comparing him to Austen is like apples and pears.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(it's called hyperbole)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">MB if i were drinking, i would have spit out beer. "domestic rabbits" > James and shorter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10681" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked the Sun Also Rises. Made me want to get super drunk in Spain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10682" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Question: is domesticity intrinsically more interesting to women? (Please don't kill me)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shotguns to tea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and normally I'm a fan, but you're using it against Jane Austen, so you must die</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10685" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, if you look at the short story collections like In Our Time and Men Without Women, those are some of the finer short stories in the first half of the 20th c. in English. Only Joyce is better in Dubliners.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(ducks)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10687" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joyce sucks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it is, then that's a fault of men Adrw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T20:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, going on an international bender is one thing I regret never having to regret</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10690" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joyce is great</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lemons with his fish and chips.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10692" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me too. Too late now, though. I'm old and responsible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10693" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joyce DOES suck!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Araby is good. Portrait of an artist is very corrupt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10695" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bah no taste</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10696" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T20:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joyce is a POS (straps on gloves)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10697" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-01T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-01T20:48:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't been on here in a few days, but then I got into the gin, so here I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">back at you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">POS?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">piece of shit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10701" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Elaborate your point about men and the household Samantha ?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, my. He was so gifted, like Goethe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Portrait of an Artist is horrible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10704" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Define horrible...<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10705" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not about rabbits</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because aesthetically it's genius ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think talented artists are preyed upon, because they are so important to God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10708" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Domesticity is intrinsically interesting, and if it is true that men are less interested in it, then that's a fault in them. Just as, whiskey is inherently delicious, and if women like whiskey less than men do, then that's our fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-09-01T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-09-01T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My class read that book in high school. Couldn't really tell you what it's about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(54, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Horrible is immoral. Draws you in with senses, then leads you down the path of corruption.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It inspired a _lovely_ anti-Catholic speech from my instructor when we were reading it in high school... so I may be biased.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(91, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Horrible is beautiful portrayal of the ugly, using art to normalize wickedness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^if that works for horrible<br />then Austen is banal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">banal is one of my all time favorite words. let us use it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10715" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, thanks. Even so, is it possibly still just more interesting to women? Fault vs. difference?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just did</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10717" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, Joyce just goes from glory (Chamber Music poems) to glory (Dubliners) to glory (Ulysses) as far as I'm concerned. The only place I can't follow him is into Finnegans Wake. But I (sometimes) blame myself for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10718" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, sure. Probably</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But when exactly did women start liking Austen better than men?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Art is like math. We cannot disagree on the banal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because I think that only happened about eighty years ago....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...or so...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Euclid's prop. 1.32 is banal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adolf Eichmann was banal, according to Hanna Arendt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, this is why Mary Ann Evans wrote under the name George Eliot. If Jane Austen wrote under the name Thomas O'Dell, would we find her better or worse for it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think my dad appreciates Austen's humor even better than I do, though he's only watched the BBC version and hasn't read the books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10727" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-01T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-01T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">suppositories are... oh, banal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">though that's just a personal aside...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A mental exercise I propose: Pick up Emma or one of Austen's other novels and read it as if it had been written by a man. How would you (do you?) judge it differently...?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10730" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think men would still have noticed that women liked it, and consequently make dumb criticisms such as that it is "shmaltzy" or "mushy" or whatever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pronounced like canal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10732" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But yes, the rest of you try what Daniel suggests</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd rather re-read something worthwhile</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-01T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-01T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't read Facebook out loud to myself, so</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10735" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T20:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I imagine you are a man, Tim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-01T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-01T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm confused. I blame the aforementioned gin and the fact that I'm on my phone so you people move too fast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T20:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Imagination rhymes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10738" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T20:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO. James said he would have shot himself had he lived in Austens society. He wrote a long novel to torture the reader while scorching Austen. Nina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T20:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Austin writes like a girl, my imagining won't change that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10740" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T20:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^not an insult^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I might have shot myself, too, if I had lived in Austen's society</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the wicked in Wuthering Heights less banal?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T21:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Guy Davenport can't convince me to like Joyce no one can</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10744" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes let's talk about how awesome Wuthering Heights is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10746" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wuthering Heights is a POS.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually did reread it recently</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So did I. It's terrible!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a strange book but I love the narration style.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Not an insult, I like girl writers, Edith Wharton for instance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10752" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm supposed to be working, would you guys stop saying stuff about literature? This is cocaine to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10753" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The third party "witness" narrator is one of my favorite literary devices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO. I cant even read Wuthering Heights.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />A modern girl writer I like is Elizabeth Kostova <br />This line is nice:<br />“[I]t seemed to me now that a Catholic church was the right companion for all these horrors. Didn't Catholicism deal with blood and resurrected flesh on a daily basis? Wasn't it expert in superstition? I somehow doubted that the hospitable plain Protestant chapels that dotted the university could be much help; they didn't look qualified to wrestle with the undead. I felt sure those big square Puritan churches on the town green would be helpless in the face of a European vampire. A little witch burning was more in their line--something limited to the neighbors.”<br />page 198</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">from The Historian, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10757" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T21:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">So sad that I missed the discussion of Austen, but I enjoyed reading the banter. One thought comes to mind. I think Austen aims at and achieves something relatively small, but she does it well. And I like her for that. Having made that confession, I hasten to add that she cannot compare to the truly great novelists, such as Dostoevsky, who aims at and achieves something absolutely magnificent. Austen is Monet; Dostoevsky is Michelangelo. I like Monet, but I am awed by Michelangelo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about Mary Shelly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10760" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">except Austen is the Durer painting of the rabbit, Jeffrey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10761" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen's settings are small, but her themes are not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10762" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10763" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T21:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shelly's Frankenstein is just paraphrased Rousseau. I'm not impressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">burden of proof is on you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10765" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T21:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well said Jeffrey Bond and Joyce is a noisy Damien Hirst</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10766" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">More like Austen is Vermeer. And I'd say Vermeer and Michelangelo are doing different things, but are equally impressive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10767" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">still better than Percy Shelly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought Kostova wrote a pretty worthy successor to Dracula in that book... at least she took the vampire thing seriously, which most authors seam incapable of doing even when they try.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed, Jeffrey Bond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vermeer painted people. That's too high brow for Austen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T21:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's the proof. Read Rousseau's Second Discourse. Then read Frankenstein. You'll think you are reading the Cliff Notes to Rousseau.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10772" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T21:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Percy Bysssssshhhhhe Shelley?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10773" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Her themes are courtship and romance and family and class and money and society! Those are not small themes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes they are</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10775" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are hopeless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't want to be combative, but those are not themes. Those are subject matters. A theme has to say something about a subject matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes I am</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lower middle class women being constantly on the edge of ruin is a small theme?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have never heard that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10781" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But then, I went to TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, that's pretty much all times in all places. Universality doesn't make is a large theme</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, that is not a theme. A theme must say something about such women in that state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wouldn't that be a thesis?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10785" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Serious question-- I have never taken a conventional lit class in my entire life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10786" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">antithesis synthesis. . . and we're back to Hegel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10787" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never heard it before either, yet a quick google told me the following: "It is important not to confuse a theme of a literary work with its subject. Subject is a topic which acts as a foundation for a literary work while a theme is an opinion expressed on the subject." http://literarydevices.net/theme/ Huh!<br />Theme - Definition and Examples of Theme<br />Definition, Usage and a list of Theme Examples in common speech and literature. Theme is defined as a main idea or an underlying meaning of a literary work which may be stated directly or indirectly.<br />LITERARYDEVICES.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">::cleans out ears:: we are talking about female virtue not being an important subject? Let's switch to subject, since I agree it's a better word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For example, revenge in Hamlet is a subject matter, not a theme. To claim that revenge is destructive of human life is a theme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The return to Hegel is a leitmotif of this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10791" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's like that chord in Wagner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-01T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-01T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Katherine Gardner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so what's the antithesis to Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha I also have no idea about literary analysis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the synthesis is Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10796" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just read stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Nina Rachele,<br />Have you read Whitley Strieber's The Hunger, what do you think of it as successor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10798" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of which, I'm off to read Gadamer on Hegel and the ancients. Good night to all! Samantha: Get to work! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A theme is writing about red rider BB guns that have a compass and a thing that tells time. Duh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have not, though it sounds familiar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10801" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well we hit 11K. . .. my work here is done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*drops mic*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10803" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen is great.... timeless classics about the best of all possible subjects<br />then drops mic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10804" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T21:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">*exeunt omnes*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10805" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">::shakes head::</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10806" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">you kids... (who are all older than me...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks everybody. Glad we had this talk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">100 more to 11,111</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ED it had just simmered down shhhhh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I think Crime and Punishment can't begin to match War and Peace: sure it might have better characterization and such, but Tolstoy is much better at constructing a plot that helps one see his view of history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, as Aristotle says, plot is primary in the poetic art.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10812" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, sorry, I do think Crime and Punishment is a better novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually think Tolstoy has better characterization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But War and Peace isn't exactly a novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Every single one of Dostoevsky's characters has a diseased mind</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be, if you took out the philosophy of history stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10818" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tolstoy is a better writer, but worse thinker, imo, anyway.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">banned topics: Austen and NFP . . . . . . . although I do doubt that those women had any "need" for it. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, you are just... the worst.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I also think that English has the best literature ever written)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think War and Peace would be... itself without the philosophy of history stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's a side topic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's have a fight between Crime and Punishment and Anna Karenina instead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, please. Have mercy. That is even more like cocaine to me than the other stuff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't read Anna Karenina, but I'd gladly watch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">they are actually much more similar books in a way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ANNA KARENINA IS THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER WRITTEN</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . only because of the men. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is amazing, if you haven't read it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The last time I read a bunch of literature, was extra-curricular readings during junior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would also make sure you read the introduction after you finish it, because it talks about how Tolstoy developed Anna as a character and it's fascinating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The crowning jewel was the whole of the idiot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10835" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T21:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really??? War and peace isn't a novel????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Anna Karenina is just depressing. It's like watching one long train wreck into oblivion. Not unlike watching Becky Sharp.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean the intro to the Pevear/ Volokhonsky translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10838" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I have read War and Peace a couple times leaving out the philosophy of history stuff and it works just great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But a Russian novel just wouldn't be the same without the philosophical essays tucked in here an there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10840" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-01T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-01T21:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never liked Austen...and that Nieto or anyone else does, does not sway me on that point. <br />A group of us, after the Austen seminars went out drinking and quoting battle scenes from the Iliad and Odyssey to each other...that was glorious.<br />Don't get me wrong, I recognize a technical skill there. But as with any fiction there is a certain subjective element. Maybe because the setting, landed gentry, does not appeal to me or because the sentimentalist works she satirized are not works that I have any knowledge of save that they existed...how could one appreciate Cervantes if they didn't have at least a basic idea of what works of chivalry and courtly love were like?<br />Not to mention the extrinsic context...liking Austen has very frequently been used as a criterion by literary snobs.<br />Now maybe if I were more familiar with sentimentalist works, or the cultural context, etc I would appreciate Austen more. But frankly I still would find it short of my appreciation of "lesser authors"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(75, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not "depressing." It is tragic! Would you call Oedipus Rex "depressing?" King Lear?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10842" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">“It is not a novel, still less an epic poem, still less a historical chronicle. War and Peace is what the author wanted, and was able to express, in the form in which it is expressed.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-01T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-01T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anna Karina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--Tolstoy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://tableau.uchicago.edu/.../04/why-read-war-and-peace<br />Why Read War and Peace? | Tableau<br />There are novels. There are long Russian novels. And then there’s War and Peace. The book’s complexity and...<br />TABLEAU.UCHICAGO.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, Tolstoy had some delusions about himself. He was a truly great novelist, but that wasn't what he wanted to be, sadly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did read his "What is Art?" for my thesis so I know he was pretty odd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetics is a lot like math. We all have our favs, but is there a rule by which we can say this is good or true? Cicero prescibed a form for rhetorical speech, an equation called an epicheireme. There is a literary demonstration, playing on the imagination.<br />War and Peace is longer than the Bible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10849" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T21:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. I am familiar with the article;) i think there is something about the novel being the form of literature wherein men explore value. (In distinction, to say epic, which has a different relationship to value). War and peace would set the bar quite high</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just think the historical essay at the end is integral to the work; not saying you can't skip it, but you would never, say, publish the book without it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, the nobility of the action depicted is a fairly objective standard by which to rank novels and other literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Miss Samantha,<br />Tragic and depressing because you spend the entire novel watching Anna Kerenina throwing away happiness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, everybody should read it once with all the philosophy garbage, to get Tolstoy's complete picture. Then they should read it every time after that without.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the philosophical stuff in Tolstoy definitely is a welcome respite from having to read literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T21:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">War and Peace is a big long demonstration, required a big story board, about 1500 times bigger than the death star prop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that's what she is doing, Franklin. She isn't happy at the beginning of the novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10857" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only problem I had with W&P was that it took 200 pages for anything to get going.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10858" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-01T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-01T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Idiot by Dostoyevsky was better than his Crime and Punishment or the Brothers K, and does not get enough love.<br />Tolstoy? I think I agree with Mrs. Cohoe about how to read him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10859" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">From what my wife has said about Anna Karenina, it sounds like an epic version of the Doll House.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, before I had to read it for school I tried and failed to get into it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOOOOOOoooOOOOOOOooo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are both about women in unfortunate marriages. That's it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-01T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-01T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Miss Samantha<br />I suppose it depends on how one defines happiness. She can't be happy outside of her family and her son.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Karenina has 100% more adultery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">have any of you read the Tolstoy short story "Family Happiness"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So a cross between Doll House and Mansfield Park?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Russian literature >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>English literature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10869" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-01T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-01T21:41:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like an idiot. When Langley said Doll House, I thought of Joss Whedon's Doll House and had no idea what he was thinking....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ Hahaha wow...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10871" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anna Karenina is not a "version of" nor a "cross between" anything!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, at one point I read a bunch of short stories by Tolstoy, but I don't remember any particulars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's more like a novella, so you probably haven't read it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's not an alternate title for Kreutser Sonata, is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So about the length of that book about the dude who fell while decorating his house and died all over a couple hundred pages?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you would remember it... anyway, it's a good read in addition to Anna Karenina.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10878" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shakespeare alone >>> Russian literature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is sometimes published on its own, like the death of ivan ilyich</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's the one I was thinking of, Is it a similar length of a read?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">this thread is the king of apples to oranges comparisons</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, about the same length I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Deacrates was good at math, but lost control of imagination, lost all integrity, lost the good and beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie Duda is the Nickell companion to W&P worthwhile?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10885" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read family happiness, why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, we had started debating about whether Anna was happy before her affair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I thought that story kind of helped show what Tolstoy thought marriage was aiming at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10888" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET> Russian literature and shorter </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10889" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="John Henry" data-date="2014-09-01T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Henry at 2014-09-01T21:49:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pakaluk I literally just joined facebook on account of this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bleh, I don't care what Tolsoy thought marriage was aiming at. I care about his art.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10891" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey John Henry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Henry" data-date="2014-09-01T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Henry at 2014-09-01T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pakaluk "Samantha Cohoe ANNA KARENINA IS THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER WRITTEN". I'd like this a million times if my opinion mattered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that's your call.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10895" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T21:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF. I would say yes. But he's my advisor... In honesty, he knows the Tolstoy family backstory really well/ cultural context is his thing. I would say, if you saw "last station" and were intrigued, his book on the death of Tolstoy is excellent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10896" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, I think Leo's views about marriage changed quite a bit during his career.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another way of saying that is that he went way off the deep end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10898" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T21:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">An excerpt, in case anyone's interested. http://m.us.wsj.com/.../SB1000142405274870357170457534085...<br />'The Death of Tolstoy'<br />Read an excerpt from the introduction of 'The Death of Tolstoy' by William Nickell.<br />ONLINE.WSJ.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10899" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^just added it to my reading list </p>
</li>
<li id="post_10900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yet another famous historical character marred by a troubled relationship with his parents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10901" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Nina, the reason I'm dismissive of Tolstoy's view about what he wrote is that I think he let his philosophy get in the way of his greatness as an artist, more so as time went on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">like Winston Churchill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what he intended to do with Anna is very different than when he actually did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sort of an Ion situation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always found it fascinating skimming the biographies of the various philosophers we read junior and senior year. two out of three enlightenment philosophers seemed to have gotten into a philosophy as a way of showing their parents (one, the other or both) what's what.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you're totally entitled to your opinion. I guess... I just really enjoyed what I have read of Tolstoy, and haven't done a ton of other readings on the subject other than a few essays.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, arguably W&P's purpose is to illustrate his historical philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10908" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^basic reading^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">from a guy who says "Heidegger isn't saying anything"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10910" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TBF, Leo didn't have to go far to go off the deep end. Not really the most stable of men, even when young.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(That was a fun class: a three way war between those who wanted to ignore the historical stuff, those who wanted to ignore all that literature and those who wanted to read the literature through the philosophy).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is interesting how W&P, Demons, and Fathers and Sons all cover kind of the same basic theme</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Demons is the best of the three IMHO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would love to read a big essay talking about the political and generational themes in those works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I actually liked alot of Heideggers's stuff on language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">War and Peace is longer than the Bible, but you can't apply dogma to it like you can Scripture. You can apply rules of poetics though, and these rules are consonant with logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh and to respond to Scottegrine's bald lie above:<br />War and Peace has 587,287 words. The KJV Bible has 783,137</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10918" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, Demons is my least favorite Dostoevsky book...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Russian literature is a little overrated. I have read i think all of Dostoyevsky, not so much Tolstoy. But all is not well. Really think one has to roll back the clock a bit for great lit. Form and substance have diminished.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my favorite</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Henry--how did you even hear about this thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it took me too long to read, it was seriously at least a year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Russian, War and Peace is longer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10924" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I guess I went from scorning facebook to commenting my ass off b/c of TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^still false Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10926" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't weigh in here in terms of quality arguments:<br />But to say any novel by Tolstoy or Dostoevsky is overblown is rather shortsighted. There are Tolstoy people and Dostoevsky people. I could talk about this at length.<br />One note on late Tolstoy. It's a huge conundrum... Death of Ivan ilych, hadji murat, kreutzer sonata (and Russians think resurrection is a beautiful novel) are all written late, along with "what is art" and some other essays of interesting ideas. But one thing that unites them is a struggling experiment to see where art fits in the world. It's also there in w&p with Helene/ Anna k with the portrait. It's done so much more precisely in his art than in his essays. But his essays shed light on those questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But both are close to half and million.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10928" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger--you are this thread's resident hater now. Russian literature, fairy tales, Austen--all crap!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sense a Straussian esoteric strain to the 100% new Scott Weinberg</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10930" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, as he was a big fan of Rousseau, his confessions which usually mark off "late Tolstoy" are interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we're ignoring lesser Russian authors too, like Lermontov, Goncharov, Gogol, Checkov, Pushkin.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What criterion do you use to assess literary quality, Michael Beitia? Is it just if you like something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10933" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd hardly call Pushkin "lesser"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chekov without a c</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10935" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, how it fits in with my #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-01T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-01T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really liked Resurrection a lot as well, but not a ton of people have read it (the anti-sacrament stuff in there is a bit much though)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10937" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T22:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I DID NOT SAY THAT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is that gnosis thing the same for math?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Thomas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10940" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pushkin isn't read at TAC .: lesser</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, it's not Chekov either...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T22:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pushkin was basically Russia's Shakespeare, from what I can tell of his reputation among Russians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie-- you are right, it was oversimplification to say that I'm simply not interested in what Tolstoy thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I type too fast:<br />Чехов</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or Chekhov</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are overrated. Dostoyevsky was my favorite novelist for many years. The novel does not measure up too the older literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree, John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10949" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Except all literature is a footnote of Homer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-01T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-01T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">'"Come, that's good! How can you maintain such a paradox? If you are serious, that is. I cannot allow such a statement about the landed proprietors to pass unchallenged. Why, you are a landed proprietor yourself!" cried Prince S. hotly.<br />"I suppose you'll say there is nothing national about our literature either?" said Alexandra.<br />"Well, I am not a great authority on literary questions, but I certainly do hold that Russian literature is not Russian, except perhaps Lomonosoff, Pouschkin and Gogol."<br />"In the first place, that is a considerable admission, and in the second place, one of the above was a peasant, and the other two were both landed proprietors!"'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is literary gnosis the same as math gnosis></p>
</li>
<li id="post_10952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">chekhov with h sometimes too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10953" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just rambling. Not criticizing. But I do recommend hadji Murat to anyone who loves Tolstoy. It's considered his final work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is math gnosis counting, and literary gnosis spelling, mr beitia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, Katie does know Russian.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10956" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger--ah, but is Fyodor Dostoyevsky a secret gateway to magic cults?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 95%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">joyce is brilliant in some respects, but he chooses the wrong things to imitate in some respects, like stem cell research chooses to view the wrong data sometimes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's tolstoyevsky</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10959" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, sorry I don't follow your metagism there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10960" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">True dat. X (Cyrillic)= ch (German of Bach) or transliterated in by the library of congress these days as "kh"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I even really enjoyed Berdyaev's philosophy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hm, i wonder if there's some formal way we are viewing literature, or is it just counting and spelling gnosis?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thinking #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-01T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-01T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am only asserting that the novel is an inferior form. But lis I am attracted to the best. It is hardly an outrageous assertion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so is good literature thinking aboiut something like math is thinking. wow. cool</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's all about the #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">novel is only form. we have no tales of old to tell. only imagination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10968" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You want formal? Oh dear sir, be careful what you ask. #ultimategnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, i get it now, i am sure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you still owe me a copy of the dis.... Katie....<br />#superultimategnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">formal gnosis yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the novelist lays down a premise, on the imagination, and leads the reader towards the light of gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">gnosis is the leading<br />#superduperultimategnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10974" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will send it in its most polished form in 2 weeks (the schedule was demolished this summer. Long story)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we have no tales of old to tell, like Virgil told of Rome. we know too much. we have met the gnosis and it is us. the gnosis must guide our imagination</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10976" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about over a drink?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(this comment applies to both Katie and Scottegrine)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I drink only Canadian whiskey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hear that is good for gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10980" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nothing good comes from Canada..... except hockey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10981" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. To halt the rambling:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10982" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Gordon Lightfoot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10983" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All great novelists have gnosis. This is the onl;y way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald gives life to Great Lakes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Virgil, Pope, Dante had gnosis and hockey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or equivalent thereof.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thankfully none of them had Gordon Lightfoot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10989" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's consider the first line of Anna K, which we are all familiar:<br />"All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Everything was confusion in the Oblonskii household."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Euclid and Cicero had gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, first line of AK. Imaginative dialiectical beginning. Bam.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10992" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even grammatically (the plural and singular distinction) that sentence expresses the crux of the dilemma Tolstoy sets out for himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, Propaghandi are Canadian.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Imagination "Topics" kind of beginning. Plausibility. But imaginative. Could be real, but imaginative. Can crack the dialectic open with skillful imitation. gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nothing is really canadian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^Proving your point about nothing good coming out of Canada besides hockey?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the moral plot and discovery of AK, like the dialectical reversal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey! Lefty-punk is a dark passion of mine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_10999" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see the syllophor, Scottegrine....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hockey is a blood sport. too many good men and women hurt by hockey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQlM59sDJVo<br />Ramones - We're A Happy Family<br />We're a happy family We're a happy family We're a happy family Me mom and daddy ( 2X ) Sitting here in Queens...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is none. It's real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nonono more political less poppy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11004" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also in Russian, the words that begin sentence one and two are differentiated only by gender, so the move from the general to the singular is done so seamlessly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the art is real, the plot is imagined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11006" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^the above was merely to syllaphor the true esoteric gnosis of the beginning of Anna K.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes. same form as gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ak is good beginning to pick</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie, go on, I am listening.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11010" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, check yo' gnosis, that was a metagism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, some of us are lucky enough to hear this in person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that looks awfully like the form of dialictic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, quit apple polishing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11014" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you manage that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the form of ak looks awfully like aristhomistic dialectic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11016" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They both live in Chi-town.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is apple polishing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get an intelligent opinion of Russian literature from the master.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11019" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sucking up to the teacher, obvs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11020" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm so GOOD at it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11021" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All my teachers loooove me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">stick with what you're good at</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11023" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And modest too!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">some people are good at math, some at lit, some at both, but it's the same kind of thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have NEVER claimed that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">its just impossible to get fired up over math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WRONG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weinberg, Math and literature are still not the same thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i guess math appeals to some mens' passions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Literature has rules</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math is my first language.... I had to translate into English</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">math and lit are different in kind, but both have rules and the rules intersect. this is what i say</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11033" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i believe that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">math has no rules</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">positivist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11036" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The sentence is really rich. Slightly obscured in English is how the second part "in their own way" is somewhat circular in Russian (not logically, but grammatically) because there is a reflexive pronoun, while the first part is more open "each other" and indicates a social relationship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i still find it hard toi believe that some men get fired up over their native tongue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the first sentence of ak is the same form as the premise A lays out in the Book of Topics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11039" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you consider the train of thought/experience of Levin, the sentence predicts that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Levin is the logos, the pov is he not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11041" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys quit apple polishing. She could mash her head against the keyboard and you would "like" it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But levin is a mere phantasm in the mind of tolstoy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yet he drives the logic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11044" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But does the sentiment reflect the way things really are? Namely, are all happy families really alike?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, that's what Tolstoy says, and he's ther man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11046" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The implication is that happiness is found in the family without society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not apple polishing, I've been asking her for a copy of her dissertation since before she finished it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11048" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I liked that one too thbttttt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's a universal maxim of an expert, a russian maxim, the major premise, and it is the same thing that aristotle lays out at the begoinning of topics, it goes from specific to imaginary from there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11050" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or that society distracts one from family happiness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the form is similar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">like hockey and clubbing people. the form is similar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a "wtf" button on FB?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11054" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">reminds me of the theme in the "Three Hermits" (or what I remember from translating it)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">B/c wtf?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but let us not collapse into plot summary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, anything but that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11058" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you can only cause the metagismic waveform collapse through ethymemetic syllophor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11059" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another musical tie in (I'm here all week!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM22N-yhfF4<br />The Mountain Goats - Family Happiness<br />The Mountain Goats - Family Happiness<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">all happy families are faithful and chaste; all sad families are not. that's it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just heard that in the car today! (songs on the hard disk on random)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks joel, that causes everything to gel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11063" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang, does this thread ever need a wtf button. I would go back and wtf a solid quarter of everything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11064" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and it brings up Canada..... ooh:<br />#fullcirclegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wrote my sorry-ass thesis to that song on repeat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11066" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">mine was "lonesome crowded west" album on repeat.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">also sorry-ass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11068" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My thesis was brilliant, but under-appreciated because it was heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-01T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-01T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that'll do it....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11071" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, we're back on the topic of theses. #fullcirclegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tolstoyevsky: all happy families are faithful; all unhappy are not. It's all illumination via imagination from there, of Russian society, and the family. Tolstoy also seems to paint a very beautiful and detailed picture, and Joyce can do that too, but T had this moral perspective that informed his creations. What is the framework of such a novel. Without a framework, it falls like limp jello. It is the poetic demonstration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11073" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">While this now comes full circle, Anna was not leaving a "happy marriage". Karenin is an odious character and Tolstoy implies that Anna's avoidance of further pregnancy with him is a sign of it being unnatural and inherently decrepit. (As opposed to Dolly and Oblonskii who are always on the brink of being saved and are able to be reunited and renewed constantly. Really Stiva was Tolstoy's alterego, if Levin is who he wished to be).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ am I crazy, or is Scott kind of right here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw<br />The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald<br />A tribute to the 29 men who died November 10, 1975, aboard the Edmund Fitzgerald in Lake Superior. ----...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, you think Dolly and Stiva were always on the bring of being saved? Even though Stiva never actually repented or intended to be faithful to Dolly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-01T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-01T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott--aren't there unhappy families that are faithful? Or am I missing what you mean by the word "faithful"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I can say is Cicero's epicheireme pulled metaphor into the structure of the enthygism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah, never mind. I was misreading him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chastity and faithfullness are the cause of joy between friends and spouses, so all happy families have this, but none that do-not do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11081" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"On the brink" is strong. They are perhaps the most tragic couple in the novel, because, Stiva knows what will bring happiness and peace to his family, but remains selfishly lecherous. But I think that their fecundity is an indication of their family being ordered to that happiness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why does AK jump in front of a train?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11083" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T22:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">As opposed to a horse drawn cart? Or a why does she kill herself?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11084" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(220, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always thought the he believes all he needs to do to bring happiness and peace to his family is successfully hide his affairs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-01T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-01T22:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, no, don't talk to him. Talk to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant jump as opposed to flacidly falling? She jumps, like a bird leaping off a rock. What brings her to jump? How do we get from the opening line to this? How does Euclid get from "equals added to equals" to the final proposition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11087" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anything interesting going on?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Charity is the form of all the virtues. Under its influence, CHASTITY appears as a school of the gift of the person. The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. Fidelity expresses constancy in keeping one's given word. God is faithful. The Sacrament of Matrimony enables man and woman to enter into Christ's fidelity for his Church. Through conjugal chastity, they bear witness to this mystery before the world. (CCC: 3, Sec. 2, Ch. 2 article 6)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T23:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that is part of it. (I was looking for my copy, but I boxed up a lot of non-dissertation books.) Stiva is not a "family" man, but he does resolve to try at one point (and continues to fail). He is intemperate through and through, but as he and Levin had once been friends, Stiva reads to me as a weak man with corrupted habits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My read, and I am very ignorant on this subject, is that Anna herself is more obvious. Cause and effect, if you can call it that, are seen most clearly in her, and around her. These characters are just phantasms, making the same argument, building the same case about humanity and nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">These characters are just phantasms, making the same argument, building the same case about humanity and human nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The tragedy. The catharsis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11093" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The city is never a good place, and Stiva also refuses to leave the city for most of novel and Dolly is always attending to the needs of the family by taking them out of the city to reduce their expenditures. He refuses to really tend to his family. So in addition to the affairs, yes, he is not family oriented. The possibility really lies more with Dolly. He sees her as an excellent mother, he fails to see that as better than societal pleasures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He does not strike me as being made happy with societal pleasures. A little tragic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-01T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-01T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Demonstrative of a bigger picture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11096" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tequilla!<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11097" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T23:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer lets talk LW and Anscombe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11098" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would but I'm drinking and reading Descartes for class tomorrow. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T23:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm very impressed with her despite the fanboyism surrounding her...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11100" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11101" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read more Geach than anscombe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I LOVED her essay on causality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11103" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-01T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-01T23:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NB. I did misspeak with this statement about the Oblonskii's "who are always on the brink of being saved and are able to be reunited and renewed constantly." Not so much constantly, but they have 8 children (a lot by the standard of the book), so there is implied potential renewal in the implied unions. (ok, I am done for tonight) Spokoi!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11104" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't read much of her stuff on ethics though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11105" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-01T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-01T23:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok I can't really either I'm doing the damn dishes I'm sure we can talk whenever here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11106" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-01T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-01T23:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. I'll look forward to it! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-02T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-02T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's include Philippa Foot in that discussion about Anscombe shall we? Philippa Foot and Iris Murdoch, two (sort-of) students of Anscombe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-02T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-02T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like Foot is the one ethicist in the 20th-c. who gives virtue ethics a leg (or two) to stand on, just as British ethics is recovering from emotivism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11109" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-02T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-02T00:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh emotivism. What a crock of dung.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^truer words never spoken!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11111" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T00:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the word is "shit"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-02T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-02T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Emotivism has its merits in a given (very limited) context. Ayer is probably its best defender. Ultimately, it fails, of course, and there are several philosophers who help move things along. Foot is one of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-02T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-02T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, you know, by all means, take up your pitchforks and torches and disregard an important part of the history of 20th-c. British ethics while you try to understand Anscombe, Murdoch, and Foot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there's a British ethics after Green? who knew</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-02T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-02T01:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you, the discussions have advanced admirably; although, this thread may not end until Tim Furlan is found and provides #superduperultimategnosis. (Duda... what else are you writing about? I want to read ahead in order to follow.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11116" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T02:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSkp2gOIaDQ<br />Flight Of The Conchords - Issues (Think About It)<br />There are people on the streets gettin' diseases from...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still want to talk about the issues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T02:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Think about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11119" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-02T04:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-02T04:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen is the greatest Anglophone novelist by a long shot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11120" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-02T04:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-02T04:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love the issues!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11121" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-02T05:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-02T05:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One Straussian who seems to me to totally match the description given by Jeffrey Bond above is Eve Adler. Did you know her Jeffrey? Her book on Virgil is evil, evil, evil. She reads Virgil as proto-Straussian, who accepted Lucretius's view of things, but disseminated pious myths about the gods for the sake of the security of the empire. Nevertheless, I learned a lot reading her book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11122" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T07:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T07:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">doesn't it seem a bit fun to give "Straussian" readings to everything? I'm always looking for secret gnosis hidden in take out menus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T07:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T07:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, why is that view evil?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11124" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T07:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T07:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sounds probable to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11125" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T08:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T08:35:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">IKEA instructions are clearly Straussian. The exoteric meaning is, for example, to build a bookshelf. . . but the esoteric meaning.... well let me just say it involves lingonberries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T08:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T08:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are all Straussians. We just dont know it. We havent been correcly interpreted yet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T08:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T08:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson is a Straussian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11128" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T08:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T08:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I'm clearly Straussian... .I have my exoteric doctrine that I share with the world..... only the initiated few get the <br />#superduperextrasecretwithasideofmushroomsgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11129" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-02T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-02T09:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha I assume you're counter-trolling me because of the Iran thing, but see the discussion of Virgil above (around comment 9,970).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T09:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any of you super smart eggheads have any recommendations for a decent primer/overview of mediaeval Arabic philosophy? JA Escalante; Joshua Kenz; Jeffrey Bond; Edward Langley; Caleb Cohoe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T09:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^recommendation request seconded from over here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11132" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(209, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-02T09:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been listening to Peter Adamson's history of philosophy podcasts on this era, which are very good, and give a good idea of the range of thought and the intellectual context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11133" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-02T09:32:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's the series' website, which also has bibliographic resources: http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/islamic-world<br />Philosophy in the Islamic World | History of Philosophy without any gaps<br />In these episodes Peter examines the thought of Muslim,...<br />HISTORYOFPHILOSOPHY.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11134" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-02T09:33:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Hackett anthology has some of the key texts with helpful introductions: http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Arabic.../dp/0872208710<br />Classical Arabic Philosophy: An Anthology of Sources<br />This volume introduces the major classical Arabic...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T09:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you so much, Caleb!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T09:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, thank you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How are Peter Adamson's podcasts on other eras? Caleb Cohoe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11138" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T09:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, if we can get the right folks interested, John Brungardt is planning on initiating a group on facebook to discuss Duane Berquist's lectures on Aristotle's Logic. Some of you may be interested, and all of you are welcome. Pater Edmund; Caleb Cohoe; JA Escalante; Samantha Cohoe; Joshua Kenz; Edward Langley; Jeffrey Bond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear, the "all" includes those I forgot to tag.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11140" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T09:51:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guys, I'm about to start Lingua Latina with my students. I feel like Mr. Clark. It's very exciting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11141" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T09:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I felt like Mr. Clark once. I took two ibuprofen and lay down in a dark room until it passed. Don’t worry, I’m fine now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11142" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T09:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T09:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">does D-Berq get into the secret Aristotelian doctrine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T09:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's the keeper of the #gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11144" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T09:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel. You did it. You ensnared Caleb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-02T09:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, the ancient podcasts are very good as well (so far, I've listened to all of the ancient ones and about a dozen of the medieval ones)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oliver Leaman is good for intro to Islamic philosophy; also, Majid Fakhry. And the HPWG link Caleb posted is also good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11147" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T10:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF: I'd suggest some of the Neoplatonist episodes from Adamson's podcast (anything on Plotinus, for example). Tim Furlan - didn't you work with him?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11148" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the thing is you have to be careful because Western-influenced histories of Islamic philosophy are working from a sort of Whig narrative, as it were, and tend to not know what to do with Sufism and Iluminationism, but those are central for Muslim sapiential tradition</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11149" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-02T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-02T10:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig ^ I think Adamson's done a rather decent job on covering those other parts of Islamic tradition with some of his more recent podcasts. That said, I've got a whole lot to catch up on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-02T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-02T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Matthew, I'll be having him as my PhD supervisor over the next few years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's ok. Books are better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-02T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-02T10:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Which ones would you say, JA?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">any history of Islamic philosophy which doesn't give a lot of attention to Mulla Sadra and Ahmad Sirhindi is giving a skewed picture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jon, I mean monographs and articles....too long a list for here I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-02T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-02T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig What do you think of Adamson's book list on his three episodes on Mulla Sadra?<br />http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/mulla-sadra-existence<br />http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/mulla-sadra-motion<br />http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/mulla-sadra-rizvi<br />186 - To Be, Continued: Mullā Ṣadrā on Existence | History of Philosophy without...<br />HISTORYOFPHILOSOPHY.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How did the Thread get from Tolstoy to Islamic philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adamson is good but misses or underplays some of the real lines of central tradition, in my opinion. But I'm glad for his work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11158" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jon I think Adamson is ok not great on Mulla Sadra but there's no harm in starting with that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11159" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T10:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">do not question TNET it questions you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim, a lot of the work already has been done; it's just buried in 19th and early 20th c British works no one ever reads</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not worthy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim for instance:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_S._Seale<br />But I've found astonishing little gems of historical and philosophical insight in the passing remarks of English travel writers who were otherwise talking about the weather in Yemen. And there are many learned monographs which no one reads<br />Morris S. Seale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Morris Sigel Seale (14 July 1896 – 29 August 1993) was an Arab scholar and Theologist who wrote about both Christian and Muslim traditions and explored extensively the links between the two religions. He wrote three influential books and contributed numerous articles to Theological journals includin…<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T10:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's also fun to study the history of the Eastern Churches of Byzantium on the Arab world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11164" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pere Georges Anawati is worth reading too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T10:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember the good old days in Mosul. Today, it's hard to find even an icon that has not been decapitated, let alone a real Christian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11166" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T10:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Phoenix hosted a weeping icon this weekend!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11167" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T10:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weeping for al those false private revelations, no doubt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11168" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:01:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">probably weeping for lack of magisterial teaching</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11169" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry, I really have nothing to add to the Islamic philosophy discussion, but if I don't make a smart-ass comment then TNET abandons me...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11170" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:18:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going back to my TAC TNET comments, to put the comment in a nutshell: <br />It's a bit cold to inculcate impressionable young minds with the notion that the highest and best thing they can do short of the religious life is to become a TAC tutor, and then graduate them into the world we live in and turn one's back - exonerating oneself with the idea that one has no institutional relation to them or responsibility for what they do after in virtually any practical respect.<br />Is that a bit of an exaggeration? Maybe. But functionally, that seems somewhat true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11171" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T11:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET never truly abandons you - it just departs now and then to let you walk in its ways on your own for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11172" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">more like slither on your belly, Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11173" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T11:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or hang from the cave ceiling upside down...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, plus the whole "everybody wants a liberal arts degree" line of BS they feed to everyone coming in. (esp. true for those of us who came in knowing nobody there)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">totally agree with Peterson and Beitia here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(like you had a choice, JAson)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11177" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">are you committing microaggressions against me as a Calvinist hyphen American with not so subtle jokes about free will</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, you can indeed go places straight out of undergrad with a liberal arts degree, but it depends on the college...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I agreed with these remarks before I left TAC. They were part of why I left</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-02T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-02T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />Matthew J. Peterson,<br />Perhaps times changed, but I came in with it well understood that the school did not intend to help their students towards a career except insofar as some careers have the same end as a TAC education.<br />Technical training was what graduate school was for.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think if you give each graduate a copy of the CCC and throw them out in the world, they'll be ok, and the college will have fulfilled its obligation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11182" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-02T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-02T11:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think TAC set me up for the biggest grad school let down... Which is petty in comparison, but the isolationist (?) attitude has grown more appalling to me in recent years (not so much as it has gotten worse, but I have noticed something pernicious in it)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And TNET... TNET is part of the deposit of the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually JAson, I hadn't thought of it that way. Since we agree so much on CST I just usually think of you as a Catholic...... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">small c at least</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11186" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T11:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson I think the solution is with the alumni, not TAC itself. Those who have gone before, e.g., and gotten tenure need to help those who come after. It isn't enough to say TAC tutors don't publish, waaah! Those in a position out in academia to actually help students should do so directly. After all, simply being a sincere Thomist is enough to have one's name blackballed at many places, regardless of what we or TAC itself does. Mutatis mutandis, this also applies to other professions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11187" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is largely to say, keep on doing what you're doing, Matthew J. Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11188" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me, and forgive me if I am way out of line, the college lays down some strong suppositions about knowledge and academia, and I have never been able to connect the dots, even in a perfect world... but, alas, I lack gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11189" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">part of the problem when I was there was that grad programs in philosophy and theology were dismissed by the tutors as being basically useless except to get a diploma with which one could then maybe reach a mind or two with the light of Laval in some future career</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found out about DSPT quite randomly, because Father Bart OP had handed a brochure to Sean White and I saw it on White's desk. When I called DSPT they said, we are knee deep in scholastics and late antiquity plus we talk to the outside world, and I said Hallelujah here I come</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks for the heads up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does the college not propose that modern academia, both secular and Catholic, has gone hell in a hand-basket, because of false notions of academic freedom (and a few other things), then lays down a remedy to pull it all back together? Is that a fair description? But besides it being a great place to be at, full of the most interesting and amazing people you would ever meet, it is not immediately obvious how the dots have all been connected, in the supposition and proposal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11193" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">overall the school seems a bit myopic about its alumni</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^agree with Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF - I tire of it, but I try to keep on. It feels trying like helping those who can't help themselves, and are resistant, and the job is thankless to boot. I don't want to apply to teach at any of the small Catholic schools or try to help their grads anymore, but I still can't but help try to help grads.<br />But I've been for a strong alumni thing for a long time. Now I don't have time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11196" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg : the college and others exaggerate the downsides of modern academic life.<br />A lot of how they perceive what is "out there" is just wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am the last one who should be speaking on this, I was the stupidest person ever admitted into TAC, I failed out twice. I do not think anyone has ever done that before. (I just could not get passionate about math. Original sin impacts people in different ways. That was my Achilles heel.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">myopia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what does all the math have to do with restoring the supposition and solution? I mean ALL the math. I think there is something there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11200" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T11:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was working on a big honking post but deo gratias I deleted it on accident.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11201" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson: things were pretty bad in academia and Church colleges in the 60s and 70s.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">adrw, i am sure it was fantastic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty bad is an understatement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11204" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-02T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-02T11:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, have you been asked to give a lecture in an academic capacity? (I ask because you're califonia-local, right? an alum, etc..) And in many ways a simple way to support alums, and at the same time expose students to people with the education who don't come back to the institution... (Maybe should be extended to other professions as well).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11205" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11206" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11207" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">myopia means short sightedness, a little over-focused, over-reacting a bit to draw in focus too much?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11208" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T11:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's as plain as the gnosis on your face.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11209" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, if you'll allow me some petulance, all I do is teach at a top ten regional U and a top ten national liberal arts college - and hobnob and consult politically in LA especially - and, God FORBID, try to get Charles De Koninck's work more attention and prominence and spur the discussion and influence of Laval.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11210" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So why reach out to someone like me?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11211" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T11:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mostly agree with you on this matter, Matthew J. Peterson. Although, I struggle to articulate the problem clearly. I am inclined to think your wording is somewhat exaggerated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is De Koninck some kind of missing link between the Middle Ages and modern academia and science, or is it more between two types of contemporary Thomism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11213" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I probably exaggerate. Our hates arise out of our deeper loves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11214" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">De Koninck to me is the "road not taken" by much of modern Thomism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11215" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:53:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">like gainful employment?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Brungardt's dissertation is seeking to change that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-02T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-02T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That I see as pernicious.. Joe Zepeda? Have you? (Who are other localish academic alums...?) Sorry drawing some blanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, they are no doubt institutionally overwhelmed with survival, etc. But I am voicing what many grads think, many if which want a bit more love from alma mater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott I thought the math was disproportionate too, and was totally uninterested in it the way it was presented</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11220" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T11:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it will get worse before it gets better. Mark my words.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T11:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The emphasis on math got me my first job.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is an excellent question from Scott: "is De Koninck some kind of missing link between the Middle Ages and modern academia and science, or is it more between two types of contemporary Thomism?" The usual TAC answer is the former of course, which is partially true, but not as true as they think it is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11223" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T11:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, the math emphasis (on paper) makes the degree from TAC seem more serious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11224" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T11:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I have been a close reader of De Koninck for a long long time as Matthew can attest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante, I thought it was a good question as well. I don't quite know how to answer it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why might someone walk the road of DeKoninck?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T11:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">except, Daniel, the math emphasis isn't in the BA Liberal Arts....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No Catholic college is under obligation to solve the world's academic problems. It just has an obligation to properly inform its students so they are educated in such a way as to support their beatitude.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11230" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re being a reader of De Koninck: his doctrine of prudence, his tactile epistemology, his choice of the essay rather than the manual in pedagogy, his wide and very openminded reading</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11231" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone who claims that there is too much math at TAC should refrain from comment on the curriculum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is too much math, and its often stupidly taught</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11233" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I'll agree with the latter, but not enough (good) math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11234" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-02T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-02T12:02:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my experience, stupid questions were entertained for way too long, while people who didn't have a solid foundation in basic algebra wasted my *ahem precious time*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11235" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">can I like that aleph-null times?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11236" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's not enough good math, there's too much fierce, bad, wicked math, and its students wouldn't know how to pour water out of an enthymeme if it had instructions written on the heel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11237" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As to the latter, there are better and worse tutors, no doubt. As to the former, nonsense. In fact, the math classes are philosophy of math, more than math itself, and the program wouldn't work without them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11238" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Too much math at TAC" = home school problems</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do wish TAC were serious about rhetoric. It really isn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11240" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry but most people don't have the wherewithal to drag themselves through Descartes without serious guidance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11241" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My math exposure at TAC opened my eyes. I never understood math until after Junior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T12:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then I found out that I am good at math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11243" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This may be controversial, but TAC should tighten the math reqs for admission. Step one, no more rolling admission.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i got more philosophy of math in one month I devoted to it in Berkeley than out of two years at TAC, by far</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, what's the eye-opener of math? In English please!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11246" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is what high level undergraduate math actually looks like: http://www.thecrimson.com/.../6/math-55-rite-of-passage-for/<br />Math 55: Rite of Passage for Dept.'s Elite Intimidates Many |News | The Harvard...<br />THECRIMSON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11247" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember taking 2 *whole* lab classes senior year just to demonstrate the Lorenz transformations algebraically for the section. REally@!!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11248" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, Descartes simply requires the understanding that all he is doing (at least in the bits we read) is super basic algebra. He isn't hard, just obscure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11249" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't speak English, Perescott..... I only speak in gnosis and math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the math illumination, the math revelation, the math epiphany? And does this relate in any way to solving the problem of modern academia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know, but did you sit through those classes? WTF!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the TAC math curriculum as (often) taught involves a lot of mystification in order to create the sense that something really big is going on, but it often isn't. The real lack though is rhetoric- TAC is an almost complete fail in that regard</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11253" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">okay Joel, maybe TAC students can't drag themselves through it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11254" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, say it in math then, and I will apply my gnosis. I am on a 30-day trial subscription.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11255" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, and the fact that Harvard has more advanced math than a small great books/liberal arts school adds what exactly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T12:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">at work, sorry</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, nothing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If math is the secret code, then it has to be related to emotion and imagination, because we are people, and these are separate studies within the liberal arts. Math can be used like a weapon, or a tool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11259" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott have you read Vico's Six Inaugural Orations? If not, then you should, given what you've just said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11260" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tighten the math reqs for admission would immediately produce better classes. And please, more rhetoric? The sad thing is, the truly wasted courses at TAC are the language courses. By teaching neither linguistics, nor Latin, nor philosophical grammar, the result is no one learns anything, and those that knew Latin merely forget it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, say more about the need for linguistics. That is a really interesting point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, seriously, it needs more rhetoric. Rhetoric is the crux of the humanities. And define "linguistics"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My sister was an Italian major in college, and at least half of her major was linguistics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do you mean philology? or do you mean structural linguistics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">define it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">who are you talking about? Saussure? Benveniste?Jakobson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11267" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was surprised that Augustine is not read as a rhetorical master, but a doctrinal one. So, the argument is missed. I was surprised that the 20th encyclicals were read as doctrinal supplements, not as rhetorical works. I was surprised doctrine as doctrine is lacking. Seems to make it more difficult and gnostic than necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel-- not if you had Mark Clark for Latin!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11269" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yay Latin!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11270" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rhetoric is even more basically about invention than persuasion, and if you'd dont grasp that, you don't grasp rhetoric or its immense importance. TAC most definitely doesn't grasp it; it views rhetoric as a kind of flowery con artist move</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Imma go back to Katie Duda's comment about Stiva and Dolly. I think you're right that all the hope for their marriage comes from Dolly. Stiva, I think, is charming but worthless. He seems to think it is actually impossible for him to live any other life but the profligate, immoral one he leads. Dolly is heroic in her effort on behalf of her family, but she's doing it alone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I was not counter-trolling you Pater Edmund. I truly think that sounds like a reasonable view, but I am not going to go back to comment number 9000 or whatever to see what you argued back then, so I understand if you wish to ignore me. : )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, I'm going to work now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11274" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T12:29:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I decided to post my honking big counterpoint. Here goes: I said it before, the tutors on the whole have a big variety of opinions on academia, and IMO they come off as negative about academia most of all specifically in the situation of talking about it to curious unwashed students, many of whom they correctly see as probably not suited for that kind of life, but they don't realllly want to come out and say it. Fact: All walks and abilities of students are admitted to the college, and for most of them they would be happier elsewhere than academia. The world is a big place. As insular as TAC is, I really think that most the facility is liberally educated and have some perspective. <br />The tutors give the impression that they are the best thing completely on accident because they LOVE their life and they have a passion for TAC. Never has a tutor said to me the likes of "this is the best and only etc." In fact, most lamented there wasn't a grad school probably thinking they would love to teach advanced stuff etc. <br />Like I said before, when I doubled down and was serious about applying to doctoral studies and entering into the ivory tower, I did have a number of tutors sit down with me and help in a number of ways, including putting me in touch with people, as best as they could. I add that last proviso, because it's also true that TAC's tutors are *not* the best academics and pretty much lack the top-tier experience. Again, we've discussed a tutor or two who may be the exception to this, but I won't talk individuals. <br />As per the suggestion that the school thinks the academic well has been poisoned and should be mostly avoided (a separate issue), at best in my experience that was the opinion held privately by a few, and with regard to certain specific areas in the humanities/theology. It was something that the leadership was trying to counterbalance as best they could. The more common viewpoint is that academia has a lot of pitfalls (it does) and that it isn't for everyone (also true). <br />Also, if we exercise a little common sense and say, hey, TAC is not really at all a top tier school as far as its position in academia and it's admins and faculty are not really from that arena, I think all this makes some more sense, and is in fact humbling.<br />Yes, there are improvements that could be made but they are normal improvements. A bright and motivated student can overcome. We've seen it happen, we've got successful academics such as Matthew J. Peterson out there, and it will continue to improve, especially if us alums don't harbor resentment (of any kind, talk about a poison!) and unabashedly reach out to students who ask for our help. I had a bunch of successful TAC academics never get back to me when I got in touch with them, but let's not talk about that. We can be part of the problem, or part of the solution!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11275" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe--I did have Clark for Sophomore Latin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11276" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then what are you complaining about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11277" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:31:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrw Lng, fair enough</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11278" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante--I meant Structural linguistics, but that wasn't the point. The point was they could try to teach any of those things, but by combining them all they fall between the stools. I had a freshman section spend a whole class arguing over whether "Ego" and "me" (I think it was those words but it could have been "amicus" and "amico" or something else) were the same word but different cases or different words entirely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11279" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah ok, agreed about falling between the stools</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11280" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if one is wasting time like that, how is one going to learn the latin language at the same time? And if one is going to do linguistics, shouldn't the foreign language be studied separately (and far more rigorously).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, never mind. I know what you are complaining about and agree with your complaint.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe--I think Clark expected that the students would read along with him and simply learn the language. After all, that's how he learns languages. My experience was, I already had Latin so could read along, and everyone who didn't sat there terrified he'd call on them. A very few went out of their way to learn the language outside class and actually learned Latin at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11283" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clark's method, in short, needs to be more intensive for it to really work. And dear me, Martin of Denmark. <slams head on desk></p>
</li>
<li id="post_11284" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I know. Clark was a great tutor if you were good at Latin. Otherwise, no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T12:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I pretty much sucked at Latin coming in with zero experience and bad study habits. Blame myself 100%, sucks to suck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11286" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well Wheelock doesnt help</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11287" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, Seems to me they could do comparative Indo-European linguistics just to give some context. That would include the basics of morphology, phonology, etc. I taught ninth grade Latin at St Monica Academy, and I tried to add in some of that stuff to keep it interesting. It seemed to help even at that level. The kids loved it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they finally ditched the Wheelock at least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^yes that could and should be done</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh thank God I hope that's true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, did you have any particular material that you used?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11292" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guys, this is relevant to my work. Thus, I am working! While on TNET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anthony Burgess' "Lanuage Made Plain" would work in that regard, mostly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11294" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-02T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-02T12:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say, though, that problem with Latin at TAC is endemic to foreign language requirements in the academy throughout. Is it to study the language or is it to learn about language? How does one do either when it is required that students take a year or a semester of any foreign language?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11295" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha: I have an old textbook about Indo-European linguistics, and , believe it or not, I have a text from one of those Latin immersion courses that they do in graduate Classics departments that I used to great effect. It had a bunch of cool linguistics stuff in it. Here is the Indo text: https://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/z.172/main<br />John Benjamins Publishing Company<br />BENJAMINS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Made_Plain<br />Language Made Plain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Language Made Plain by Anthony Burgess is a brief...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beekes is good. So is Benveniste</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11299" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's Clockwork Orange Burgess, btw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">GASP. SO MUCH MONEY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T12:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng: fair points. But I do think direct conversation about points of awkwardness is a good thing, and is too often avoided on that campus. But fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can get from SLU, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or I suppose I could get the paperback.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11304" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha: Here is the Latin intensive text. IMO, the best Latin textbook out there. http://www.amazon.com/Latin-Intensive-Floyd.../dp/0520031830<br />Latin: An Intensive Course<br />This is a comprehensive introduction to Latin forms and syntax, designed to train the student in reading ancient...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catholic Burgess!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">monarchist Burgess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11307" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T12:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And until I have a tenure track appointment, calling me a "successful academic" is probably an abuse of language. Hah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I have that one (somewhere). It is good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exquisite Burgess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11310" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">and for Latin, really, TAC should just man up and own medieval Latin instead of hankering after Ciceronian. Rosenstock's Magna Carta Latina is a great way to start</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11311" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-02T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-02T12:48:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, you should market the thread as a MOOC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11313" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie Duda wins TNET for today</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11314" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is actually going to BECOME a TAC thesis. And it will be the best one ever written.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11315" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T12:49:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Charge people to look at the Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11316" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T12:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thread Healings?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11317" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T12:49:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thread peep show.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11318" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T12:49:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thread burlesque.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11319" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T12:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In a world of substandard MOOCs, one Thread...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11320" class="entry even" data-likes="12" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T12:51:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Comments 8216-9656: A Post Structural Examination Of How Failed Intellectuals Rationalize Their Jobs in Retail."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11321" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Stoddart" data-date="2014-09-02T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Stoddart at 2014-09-02T12:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is still going? I went away for the holiday, come back, and this is still going yard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T12:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thread Bingo Thursdays.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">“Sometimes the fluffy bunny of incredulity zooms around the bend so rapidly that the greyhound of language is left, agog, in the starting cage.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11324" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you read TACs founding document, specifically the section on Academic freedom, you see that the college seems to define modern academia as a "tyranny" because it rejects religion and truth: <br />"It is clear that they [American Association of University Professors] hold religious doctrine to be a restriction on academic freedom, for later in the same statement, the conditions upon which a religious school insists when it appoints a teacher are described as “institutional limitations on his academic freedom.”<br />It is also strongly suggestive that modern academia is tyrannical:<br />"Indeed, it would seem that the government of any institution by rules which prescind (or pretend to prescind) from all differences of belief, or which negate in principle the possibility of governing by the truth, must of necessity be tyrannical."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is a harsh statement. I am not saying it is a false statement, though. I asked one of the Founders once if they would ever amend the Charter, and he said no because it is like the Constitution. But even the US Constitution can be amended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11326" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-02T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-02T12:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm starting a support group for Thread Voyeurs Anonymous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You all knew what you signed up for. I obviously didn't, because I am ignorant. I am not asking anyone to shy away from this bold proposal. In honesty, I disagree with its tone and some of its content I see as mistaken. But in Charity I invite its defense. Dissent is the blood of freedom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11328" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T12:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante--this book? https://wipfandstock.com/.../Magna_Carta_Latina_The...<br />Wipf and Stock Publishers<br />Wipf and Stock publishes new works in theology, biblical studies, church history, philosophy and related...<br />WIPFANDSTOCK.COM|BY EMERGE INTERACTIVE, INC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie Duda--good point about languages in academia generally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not think the Catholic Church has ever taught or suggested that modern academia is a tyranny. That seems like a statement of reactionaries. And our goal should be to restore, not tear down, so the proposal should be more focused on truth; truth always restores, even if tenure is martyred.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or do not defend it. Just know what it is. It is a proposal from highly intelligent philosophers whose tenure was sacrificed for truth. You are in good company! But truth will overcome. It always has, in age after age. TAC students are practically the only ones asking the questions, and not afraid of how they approach the world or how they present the questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11332" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Stoddart" data-date="2014-09-02T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Stoddart at 2014-09-02T13:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As soon as I saw that Rosenstock-Huessy thumbnail in the thread, I knew that JA Escalante had already gotten into book recommendation territory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-02T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-02T13:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, yes, that's the book</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Gigliotti--I know you probably said somewhere lost in the early part of the thread, but where did you go to college?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11335" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, apparently Burgess's "A Mouthful of Air" incorporates almost all of "Language Made Plain" into its first half.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is TAC supposed to fix academia, or just educate students properly? I think it should do both. You can't do one without the other. To do either, you need to be able to explain what you do. I think most would disagree with the college, because it does not provide a full range of solutions. It does not address the whole person, just a very small part of the person, so the graduate may find it difficult to intuit the challenges they are facing in modern academia which are largely emotional, not mathematical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And is cheaper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11338" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T13:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, we don't have thread healings, we have holistic thread gnostic crystal healings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too many TAC grads stand in cold-hearted antipathy against academia, cycicism, as opposed to sympathy. Most everyone in modern academia is in pain. Where is the human response? Where is the human answer? This is no less academic than mathematics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11340" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Stoddart" data-date="2014-09-02T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Stoddart at 2014-09-02T13:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Most everyone in modern academia is in pain." Sounds like it's time to end the suffering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To put them out of their suffering? To nuke them? Or to address the causes of the ignorance with the full range of scholastic and scientific appeals? Or to just state "they are wrong" / "they are tyrants" and nuke them; ie. wish evil upon them?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11342" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, that would be great re: Duane Berquist. I like his lectures, especially the analogy one. Greatly demystifies the sense one gets from certain people at TAC about that doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11343" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T13:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analogy is a TAC strong suit/trump card,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">gnostic meaning please</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11345" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-02T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-02T13:32:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I fully confess to The Thread: I am hard on my alma mater because I love it and I think it is so money and the students and tutors don't even know it. And I probably want more from it than it is possible for it to give.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(234, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best Latin course:<br />lingualatina.dk/wp/<br />Lingua Latina<br />Per Se Illustrata<br />LINGUALATINA.DK<br />September 2 at 1:33pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview<br />Michael Beitia Do you love it like a fancy meal, perfect in every way, but now you have passed it and it is flushed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, although analogy is presented as a mysterious doctrine in the world at large anyways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11348" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a year long 'course' on analogy with John Nieto. That was amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11349" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-02T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-02T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig I second Kenz, Joel HF, re. Duane Berquist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11350" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was not mystifying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11351" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-09-02T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-09-02T13:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">At what point does a Thread reach critical mass, and if it does, what will the blast radius be?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">2nd American journalist just beheaded by ISIS. Why is our prezzie not doing anything about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11353" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and the reason I said 'course' because it was Friday afternoons on the porch at St. Bernards and we smoked cigars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11354" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T13:35:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, did you miss when I announced I was starting Lingua Latina with my students for the first time today? (It went super well, btw)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was so jealous of that Daniel, you guys were the worst with your excluding of women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11356" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I felt badly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11357" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This course actually infuriated a few people in our class, Daniel!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-02T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(53, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-02T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Damn it Facebook---why the hell do they make navigating these threads so effing impossible...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11359" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread moves too fast for my old fingers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11360" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Franklin Salazar" data-date="2014-09-02T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Franklin Salazar at 2014-09-02T13:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">--<br />For what it's worth, I could not of asked for more from TAC.<br />In business, i.e. architecture, it's the glue that binds my muse with experience both cultural experience as well as practical experience out in the field.<br />And likewise in everyday life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looking back, Samantha, I realize that had I mentioned the fact that there were interested women, John almost certainly would have met somewhere where we all could be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T13:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^highly doubtful^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Alright, I'll try to contact John Brungardt and maybe we can start it this weekend (?). I know he is super busy, and may not be able to be that involved. If need be I'll start the discussion--though by no means am I qualified to lead it in any way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is modern academia something else? What is the connection?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I don't think I missed that, although I might have missed the "Lingua Latina" part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, what are you starting?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, Daniel Lendman, I'm not sure that is true, w/r/t location of the Analogy course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, I concur with you, Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11369" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, before starting a billion and one groups for things, would people be interested in a separate forum for philosophical discussions on TAC-related topics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, thought I tagged you in the initial post. A facebook discussion group of Duane Berquist's lectures on Aristotle's logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am in!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11372" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is the link to Berquist's lectures: https://archive.org/details/berquistphilosophylogic<br />Introduction to Philosophy and Logic : Duane H. Berquist, PhD : Free Download...<br />Save<br />ARCHIVE.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have already been working through them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Masterful stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As have I, but I'm hoping peer pressure will make me more motivated to go through them quickly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would only recommend this: The discussion should be on Aristotle's logic, using Berquist's insights as our guide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley--what are you picturing? Like a facebook group?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The math and science program needs a thorough revamp, but how good it is as "philosophy of math" is completely open ended. What I mean is, of the 4 tutors I had for math, one raised actual poignant lines in that regard, but (quite correctly as far as it went) was quick to leave that line of inquiry and show that in many ways you could "do the math" and understand its terms, without answering, e.g., metaphysical questions about the existence of mathematicals.<br />The second was Mr. Clark, and he was decent...definitely had an exuding enthusiasm for it...but he really exemplified the fellow student, not the expert. An example, he presented a "Euclidean" proof of trisecting the angle. In his favor, it wasn't the most common trisectrix and was more accessible than the other ways, but he missed what "Euclidean" meant.<br />In fact, how many students, even ones self-proclaimed great at math (cough...Bolin...cough) made fools of themselves trying to prove the 5 postulate, or trisect the angle, or square the circle or any number of things actually proven, often more than a century ago, to be impossible. While Mr. Clark's hyperbolic trisectrix was awesome, and fit in with the Apollonian theme, it was not Euclidean, not in the sense in which it is mean when people say there is no Euclidean way. (Straight edge and compass construction)<br />The third tutor was incompetent, and frankly not only mystified the thing through obscurity, but was mystified himself by what I found to be basic algebra and calculus. My lab tutor, Mr. Shields, was far superior.<br />The 4th was Molly Gustin, RIP. Maybe it would have been great if she was of better mind. She, being a true constructivist, would have been fun to engage, I think, when she was of sounder mind.<br />But as it is, only one tutor raised pertinent questions wrt philosophy of math, but abandoned them in order to just "do math." Another was essentially a fellow student still make elementary mistakes, but was decent. Another was out of his league, and the last past her prime.<br />But here is the thing....the quality of the mathematics tutorial shouldn't be so dependent on the tutor. They need to figure out WHAT we are doing in that class....if it is philosophy of mathematics, then I had one class on that, my very first on Euclid. The rest missed the mark. Maybe we need to read on the Division and Method of SCience, ask what existence mathematicals have</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I'm thinking is this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I own a prime domain name: "socraticum.com"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I've been trying to come up with a good use for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11382" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">These people make a forum package that's specially designed to make online conversations as pleasant as possible: http://www.discourse.org/<br />Discourse<br />Conversations, not pages Why break conversations into awkward and arbitrary pages, where you have to...<br />DISCOURSE.ORG<br />September 2 at 1:44pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Joel HF Edward Langley--I think getting people involved is tricky enough. Fighting facebook is pointless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T13:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if it could connect it to facebook like Goodreads and other online apps are connected?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or here is one, is Euclid I.1 a valid proof? Proclus lists that proposition and many others as fallacious...just imagine reading Euclid with Proclus, and asking the questions that are naturally raised...questions still debated today. E.g. that very first proposition, the objection is that it assumes the circles intersect, which is to assuming the continuity hypothesis. Going further back, you hit the question of whether geometry and arithmetic, that is continuous and discreet quantity are truly divisible into distinct sciences. And the question of what is math...you could say that the Elements presume we are studying continuous quantity, but does that mean Prclus anticipated a more modern conception of math, where one just starts with quantity and cannot assume continuity or discreteness is its property?<br />You could have 4 years of philosophy of math just proceeding from the questions raised by Proclus, and all the time engaging contemporary debates....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11386" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Clark for Euclid and our discussions were great (despite a somewhat iffy section that year--and yes, I'm largely to blame there); Letteney for Ptolemy, and we had plenty of philosophical discussions while also "doing the math", great balance; Cain junior year, and I thought he was excellent; and Dr. Richard for senior year. He was ideal.<br />Maybe I was just lucky.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How difficult would that be to do, I know almost nothing about html and building websites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11388" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that's possible: the way it would work is that anyone who has a Facebook or Google account could basically join in with minimal hassle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am intent on making a bigger fool of myself. So, suppose TAC does read more Aristotle and Thomas than any other college; and suppose they even do more Euclid and read more Bible without dogma in freshman year than any other college. Suppose this is all true. Why is this a good thing? Is the college presenting these things in the right way to help its students grow in wisdom, to help them approach academia and the world with wisdom, or just a kind of reaction?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11390" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would basically be "sign up -> sign in with Facebook/Google -> join conversation"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That isn't hard to do...even the FSSP.la site allows you to log in via Facebook....They then have a discussion site, meant to facilate communiation with parishoners and between them...I am guessing you are thinking of something like that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz--I may be misremembering, but (a) I think my class did discuss that at TAC (the Bk I.1 problem that is), and (b) do we not read the Division and Method? I guess I went to so many extra seminars on it that I just assumed we did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And having it on a separate forum might be ideal as far as getting people who dislike Facebook (e.g. David Grothoff) to participate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I'm not sure if it's really possible to make the quality of a math or science tutorial not dependent on the abilities of the tutor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, but there is also surprising inertia to get people to use these other sites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you can make it less so</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11397" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am up for anything as long as it is epically simple. Like Duplo Lego simple.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11398" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Division and method is in senior seminar: exactly one class</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11399" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley--the problem is when the student body also limits it, b/c half of them never learned basic algebra. (And I'm not saying all the students should be math wizards either.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11400" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We raised no philosophical questions after the definitions and postulates, and challenged no proof.<br />The Saturday seminars where we did the Division and Method were far superior to the cursory treatment it got in seminar with the general student population</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had an extremely lousy Euclid tutor; but probably the wisest way to not address the "tyranny" of contemporary universities is to put wax in your ears.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, for those interested, there was an extra seminar or seminars on Div & Method every year I was there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11403" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and I went to those...and the one on the De Hebmadibus, and the one one (ad nauseam)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Were you in those same Saturday seminars, Joshua Kenz? This would have been your freshman year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basic algebra is pretty easy to learn. I do not see that as the real issue, the mortal sin here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11406" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best thing in the world was watching Dr. MacArthur resurrect a point he was arguing with Nieto, and watching Nieto just put his hand down on the table in frustration....Dr. MacArthur was like a pit bull...he was wrong on this point, but he wasn't dropping it till he was satisfied</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11407" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I think the purpose of a liberal education is to give one tools to begin further pursuits elsewhere. I think TAC does this marvelously. The emphasis on mathematics helps us to see that we do know things. Moreover, it aids us in having a well ordered mind and imagination. <br />The theology tutorials are such that one can benefit from the perennial wisdom of theologians without being Catholic. Nevertheless, the inherent Catholicity of the tutorials and the school result in many conversions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC gets people started on the road.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe not, I did those starting soph. year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11410" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I attended a two year long seminar on Division and Method</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11411" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We got to the mathematicals by the end of the first year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(MacArthur only made it to the first couple classes)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11413" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i even went to those extra tutorials after I graduated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^#shameless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11415" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The emphasis on mathematics helps us to see that we do know things." Daniel, is seeing that we know things really that big a problem?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11416" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other thing that I loved was how Nieto was so deferential to McArthur, even when Nieto disagreed--Neito not being a naturally deferential kinda guy when he thought someone else had something wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For moderns, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ever been to a non-TAC philosophy program?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How are you picturing the format Ed? I am thinking something where there would be conversation threads for individual works, but also for general topics, and you would be able to subscribe to them and get updates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11421" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T13:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">My main point is that if TAC more explicitly framed the class, e.g. saying we are studying this to raise these sort of questions, then even if the tutor is not as competent, then at least some direction as to what we are doing is given.<br />And I agree with Joel HF whom FB will no longer let me tag. Baic algebra is supposedly required just to graduate HS...if homeschoolers aren't learning it, then they must be treated as people without a HS diploma...let them get a GED before college.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11422" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The inherent Catholicity of the tutorials..." How is freshman theology inherently Catholic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We've been over this ad nauseum, but, for one thing, only Catholic tutors who take the oath can teach theology at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, for some moderns. Seeing that we know things is a problem. But we are not moderns. We can see that we know things. Are you pretending to be moderns, and doing math to address this role you are playing? I am asking a serious question here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11425" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, basically a separate thread for a separate topic and possibly some top-level categorization of topics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF (now I can tag you!), do you think, e.g., Ms. Zedlick should be allowed to teach it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11427" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Possibly also a parallel blog for original long-form contributions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(68, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz (now I can't tag you? WTF facebook!), do you mean for Math or freshman theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose the Catholic tutor can also present an outlay of dogma to accompany Sacred Scripture in freshman theology if he wished, not to force anything on anyone, but just to present these infallible truths...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11430" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can tag anyone if you type an "@"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Facebook has some odd rule about when it suggests people to tag</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see that some moderns doubt you can know things. But most students at TAC do not doubt this. Is this approach to math kind of like an academic apologetics course? Where does it lead? What is the purpose?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Edward Langley are you able to extract all of this into a searchable format, when you do your wizardry with the stats and the graphs and the what not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thread? yeah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11435" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right now I have something like the first 9000 posts in searchable format.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do students have recurring trouble seeing they know things, hence math as a reminder that they do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11437" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think exposure to philosophy tends to generate skepticism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11438" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially since teenagers generally have an inflated view of what they think they know (Cf. Phaedo)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T14:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean theology...you mentioned the prohibition on non-Catholics teaching it. Joel HF</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T14:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Ed, if each user had a kind of blog "auto attached" like facebook's old Notes feature where you could tag topics, and they could be auto-posted in a central blog...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I doubt that, Edward. I have to jump off for a while for some calls re: the Meskwaki. But I hope I have cemented my reputation as a complete fool. Please know you can know this; there's a formula to show this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, there are lots of behind the scenes politics about who gets to teach what course. There are tutors who are Catholic even whose course options seem restricted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And McArthur did once say that they only expect tutors to be able to teach about 2/3rds of the program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11444" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not, to my mind, an apologetics course. My point about "knowing that one knows," is meant in this way: Mathematics is the clearest of the sciences. It is very easy to perceive the movement from principles to conclusions. One can also see that one is syllogising. A strong background in math enables a student to reflect upon what it means to know, and to point to things that he does know. This is especially helpful as one enters into the more difficult sciences of philosophy of nature and metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the restrictions make sense, since the school's view is that there is a certain way to do philosophy that leads to the truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A school that thinks that would necessarily take care to ensure that the philosophy (+ therefore theology) tutorials are taught by teachers who pursue the truth in that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I see that Daniel; but the principles of revelation are not known by math or syllogism. And these principles we all must know; not only know, but live. Indeed these principals are reasonable, but not reasonable in a mathematical or syllogistic way -- but precisely in other ways. So I have to keep asking, the college being Catholic, why so much of math, but not this other stuff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11448" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, for the same reason that Plato supposedly had a sign over the doorway to the Academy that said "Let no one ignorant of geometry enter."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11449" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is probably little that one could point to in Freshman theology that one could call 'Catholic,' aside from the tutor and the majority of the students. The Catholicity is seen in the structure of the whole. At the end of freshman year the student becomes quickly aware of the many challenges presented by the Scriptures. Also, I think it begins to become clear that one need some authority to turn to in order to begin making sense of things. Fittingly, we begin Sophomore year with Augustine's On Christian Doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11450" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, you seem to be presuming that the study of scripture isn't inherently Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11451" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let us not forget that, while the college is Catholic, it is not producing theologians, per se, but liberally educated men and women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">People study the Scriptures without being Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure some here would object, but the Bible is the Church's book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But reading it is not necessarily Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11456" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My tutor in Freshman Theology definitely guided us to specific (Catholic) conclusions. And he was one of the less pushy tutors. Or less obviously pushy, perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, but that doesn't mean that they either (a) do it correctly or (b) aren't engaged in a Catholic activity in some sense of the word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If so, there would be no more protestants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing that wasn't say, in the Ecumenical Councils, for instance, but still things we wouldn't have arrived at without him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think we disagree. Or that you want to push this point too far.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11461" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T14:19:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Paietta, God rest his soul. And that is all I will say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you mean me, up above, Daniel Lendman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T14:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my Freshman theology I was accused of being overly "apologetic". Which was an odd choice of words, considering we had 5 non Catholics, and those that I argued with the most were Catholic and just butchering the scripture (favorite was over "hardening pharaohs heart", a person essentially ended up saying that what God did was sinful...when I pointed out that implication, the response was "well he didn't fulfil the three conditions" and I asked "imperfect knowledge or will then?"...they weren't happy with me)<br />But the 2nd semester (after I pulled back) the tutor said that perhaps his criticism was too harsh, and some people sometimes need to be smacked down.<br />I remember being confused about what we were doing...was it Catholic theology, or was it just groping around a literary source. Sophomore year with MacArthur was great though. I had Paietta junior year and that was horrid (well my section was horrid)...senior year was Nieto.<br />I my experience was 50% awesome/50% terrible I do think I would have rather had say Shields for Freshman year.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it was Dante who discovered the sign above Hell's gate reading whomever is ignorant of geometry shall never leave.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I would think if the Freshman view of Scripture leads to questions and a realisation of the need for an authority, then that points to the Church, not the Doctors of the Church, lest we think Authority on matters of faith comes from a person or group. This may lead the students to think that their collective wisdom is infallible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-02T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-02T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I remember being confused about what we were doing...was it Catholic theology, or was it just groping around a literary source." -I think the thread might have ended with this comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11467" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T14:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">so Edward, are you considering setting something up?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11468" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mhm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11469" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-02T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-02T14:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC students don't need any particular class or set of classes to believe their wisdom is infallible. Take me, for example. I have never been wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11470" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Be sure to not cut the fools out of any discussion. Fools are the food of truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pope Cantu.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11472" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda interesting to be in class with 18 infallible people who disagree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11473" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-02T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-02T14:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha! And you people think the current Pope's off the cuff interviews are bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-02T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-02T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"And that, my son, is why Brian Kelly should start Greg Bryant at running back against Michigan. Next question."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian Kelly was a lousy soccer player. But I am a fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-02T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-02T14:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the Pope allowed to establish the DH in the NL? Asking for a friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11477" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ANATHEMA SIT!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is your dog named Anathema too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11479" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once knew a dog, his name was Anathema. He was very obedient.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11480" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-02T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-02T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Worrying about the boundaries of Summorum Pontificum will be the least of your problems when I'm through. How does one word an excommunication of an entire fanbase?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11481" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T14:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, as we all know only one person in each class is truly endowed in fallibility...Sam Almeida, who was the infallible speaker for his class, pronounced me infallible in the commons my junior year. So, you can see by our mutual pronouncements of each other's infallibility that I am truly infallible. I see no such credentials for the rest of you.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11482" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cato used to end every speech in the following manner "Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est." And quite right he was too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-02T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-02T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was he the son of Dr. Almeida, my honors prof at FUS?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11484" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--where are you teaching Latin, if I might ask?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11486" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam Almeida . . . was something else</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-02T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-02T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh damn. I'm guessing he is ridiculously smart. I think he sat in our classes, doing his own work, when he was like 8.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11488" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's one thing you might say about him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11489" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it would be true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11490" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T14:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">South City Community School. It's my boys' school. Handily, all the small Christian schools are always in desperate need of Latin teachers. I taught at the boys' classical school in Denver, and it so happened that the one here needed me as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11491" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it depends on who you ask: Sam Almeida or anyone else?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In seminar, if 1 person presents Dogma, is that taken seriously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11493" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T14:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I kid of course! I all Almeidas everywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-02T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-02T14:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">His father was a fine professor, a humble and beautiful soul. When he had to dismiss me from the honours program I think it hurt him more than me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11495" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It depends if the dogma is relevant to the discussion, understood correctly and presented in a way conducive to improving the discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's how Dogma is supposed to be presented always, and always trusted on faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11497" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T14:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, some people don't present it that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11498" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T14:49:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"conducive to improving discussion" is key here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for example, in my freshman theology section we had a student who kept reference Msgr. Knox. it got old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11500" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T14:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">until the tutor finally lost it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tony Lopez" data-date="2014-09-02T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tony Lopez at 2014-09-02T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wayne, Patrick, Kenneth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, can you tell me about Descartes? Descartes knew math, but lost sight of how you can know things. How was this possible?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes the format of the discussion needs to improve for the sake of Dogma, instead of Dogma being presented in a way that is useful for the discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^WRONG^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is a Dogma on God. <br />"God's existence is not merely an object of rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith."<br />This kind of fits nicely into this discussion, because the Bible points to the knowability of God in both the Old and New Testaments. So, are these two ways of equal import? I mean, is God as object of reason more important than God as object of faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does that imply that, at one and the same time, for one and the same person the existence of God is both something rationally known and an object of Faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that is the correct and full implication.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11509" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think so, and Ott or whoever you're quoting isn't exactly "magisterial"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now this:<br />"In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order."<br />Certainly, "God exists" is a religious truth of the natural order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11511" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also clearly, "God exists" is not "all religious and moral truths of the natural order"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it is among those religious truths of the natural order, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God exists is a conclusion of metaphysics or natural theology, so it is a religious truth of the natural order, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd quibble, but, yes it is a religious truth of the natural order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward: "Ott or whoever you're quoting isn't exactly 'magisterial.'" Are you saying this is not a Dogma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11516" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps not in its current formulation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is a religious truth of the natural order too. And I think I'd see why you would quibble. But I generally would agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11518" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. if the Church were to define it, it would probably be clearer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, it's from Vat I and is stated as a negative proposition. You are correct. Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Just to be clear, I'm not denying it's truth nor the necessity to believe it when correctly understood)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gotcha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unlike me, who frequently denies dogma because I think I understand it when I do not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, the opposite of that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, to even understand dogma, you need to be able to talk about it reasonably. And I wish there was more of that at the colleges I went to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11525" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I wish Christendom was better at that too </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11526" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am guessing you are conversing with Scott...he is blocked</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I hear you. And I wish TAC had more of that Dogma piece in my freshman theology seminar too. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11528" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T15:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Suarez held that the existence of God could be known by faith and reason at the same time in the same person, and he argued this was because the formal object differed. Most theologians disagree with him. I have no idea what side Scott is taking, but I assume he is asserting it as dogma? Despite Ott's rating it as a disputed question and explaining both sides?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott seems to be asserting that one and the same truth can be a matter of faith and reason simultaneously and furthermore asserting that that position is dogmatic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11531" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he's quoting something like this: http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">proposition I.2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why don't you just ask me? Would that not be more polite? Instead of placing sources and suppositions into my mouth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I asked "Does that imply that, at one and the same time, for one and the same person the existence of God is both something rationally known and an object of Faith?"<br />Scott responded: "I think that is the correct and full implication."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I was talking to someone you can't see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11536" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T15:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feel free to quote me so he can see:<br />He is a liar and a fool. If he is quoting Ott he knows damn well out says it is a disputed question. Or maybe he is not actually reading Ott, but like a lazy uneducated troll just quoting a list on a website that fails to differentiated common opinion from de fide doctrine, as Ott does</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it implies it can be in the synthesis between faith and reason in the area of natural theology, but not in the realm of supernatural theology, namely those things which can only be known by faith.<br />But I presented the Dogma in regards to natural theology. I think it helps make the point that Faith aids reason. This is what TAC teaches in its Charter under the maxim "faith seeking understanding."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems like he might not have understood a prior question I asked him. Perhaps all he's asserting is that for some people God's existence is a matter of faith and for others it's a matter of knowledge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Scott Weinberg, where is it in Vatican I?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I.e., where was that quote?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is asking the question I cannot see? And why cannot I see him?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone has blocked you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11543" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which generally plays havoc with these threads, but whatever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I do not wish to discuss "through you" with a hostile person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, where exactly in Vatican I did you get the text you quoted up above?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not just forwarding his opinions. Sometimes, however, it's necessary to repeat conversations to resolve confusions when two participants in a thread have blocked each other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, I will assert this. It may be wrong, but I will assert it, and I am very open to the being corrected. No man can know supernatural truths by reason, but only by faith and revelation. All these truths are reasonable. Man may know natural revelation -- such as God exists -- by reason alone; but some do not know this by reason, but by grace. And even natural theological truths cannot proceed without admixture of error without grace. This is faith seeking understanding. Faith and revelation aids reason, to perfect metaphysics which, in turn, perfects sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I block no one. And here is the Vat I text. Let me know what you think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11549" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think all that is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11550" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Admixture of error" just gave me BINGO!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11551" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Waiting on the Vatican I quote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although I probably understand "admixture of error" differently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11553" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T15:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Edward Langley, here is what Ott says<br />"God's Existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith. (De fide)<br />.....<br />" 2. Knowledge and Faith as Regards the Same Object.<br />It is a disputed point whether one and the same person can at the same time have knowledge and faith in the existence of God. Many outstanding scholastic theologians (Alexander of Hales, St. Bonaventure, Albertus Magnus) and many later theologians (Suarez) assert that such is possible, because the formal object is different (natural insight- Divine Revelation) and because both acts or habits belong to different orders of being (nature-grace). St. Thomas, on the contrary, teaches: "It is impossible for the same truth to be known and believed by the same person.": impossibile est, quod ab eodem idem sit scitum et creditum (S. th 2 II. 1, 5) As ground for this hhe submits that the clear insight into the truth associated with knowledge cannot co-exist with the obscurity of faith. It is, however, possible that the same truth could be known by one person and believed by another. According to the teaching of St. Thomas, it is also possible for the same person at the one time to have a natural knowledge of the existence of God as the originator of the natural order, and a supernatural faith in the existence of God as the originator of the supernatural order, because the supernatural faith comprehends truths which are not contained in natural knowledge (difference of material object). (Cf. S. th. 2 II 1, 5)."<br />I had a rule as a mod on a forum before. No quoting Ott unless you can actually quote him...lists online don't count.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Patience is a virtue; Internet connect is bad on the great plains.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11555" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T15:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's what Ott says about that dogma:<br />"God's Existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith. (De fide)<br />.....<br />2. Knowledge and Faith as Regards the Same Object.<br />It is a dispute point whether one and the same person can at the same time have knowledge and faith in the existence of God. Many outstanding scholastic theologians (Alexander of Hales, St. Bonaventure, Albertus Magnus) and many later theologians (Suarez) assert that such is possible, because the formal object is different (natural insight- Divine Revelation) and because both acts or habits belong to different orders of being (nature-grace). St. Thomas, on the contrary, teaches: "It is impossible for the same truth to be known and believed by the same person.": impossibile est, quod ab eodem idem sit scitum et creditum (S. th 2 II. 1, 5) As ground for this hhe submits that the clear insight into the truth associated with knowledge cannot co-exist with the obscurity of faith. It is, however, possible that the same truth could be known by one person and believed by another. According to the teaching of St. Thomas, it is also possible for the same person at the one time to have a natural knowledge of the existence of God as the originator of the natural order, and a supernatural faith in the existence of God as the originator of the supernatural order, because the supernatural faith comprehends truths which are not contained in natural knowledge (difference of material object). (Cf. S. th. 2 II 1, 5)."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11556" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NP Scott! I'll eagerly await seeing where in Vatican I this quote is from "In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is good too, but not exactly what you are waiting for:<br />God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth.<br />The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason. (Vat I)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you mean you block no one since you unblocked me, right Perescott?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you copy and paste the quote from a source other than Vatican I? Did you mean that the quote was "from Vatican I" as in Vatican I was the authority cited to support the quote?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and thank you for that gratuitious high five.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both, it's way up there around 950. Free copy of CCC if you find it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC is not infallible, VI is....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, I didn't know that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When you say both, what do you mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If he cannot actually quote Ott, call him on it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The doctrine and the source text in the document of Vat I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quoting a website that doesn't even get the division of Ott correct (this "dogma" is from part 4, not part 5) is just junk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what exactly is being argued?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear Scott, you are doubling down on this exact quote being from Vat. I: "In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order." Is that correct?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11570" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott is quoting from Vatican I, and I can't find the quote there. I'm just aiming for precision! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11571" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. That is not the exact quote from Vat I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gotcha. Where was the quote from?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11573" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That quote is from Ott. He derives it from this quote<br />"It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error."<br />Which IS in Vatican I, session 3 chapter 2. Also found in Denzinger (old numbering) 1786 and is nothing more than what St. Thomas says in S. Th. I q. 1 a. 1<br />Just so everyone is clear</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aaah, so you're being persnickety... why, Joel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is not it either, but this is good too:<br />"Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other... faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds." (Vat I)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, Joshua, we went through that before</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11577" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm an arrogant TACer, and a mean one to boot. This is what I do, sadly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11578" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">with gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11579" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew there was a reason you and I were facebook friends....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11580" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is something someone else pointed to, that was in Vatican I: ""It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error." Vatican I, session 3 chapter 2.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe I should ask Perescott....<br />Perescott, what is your point (in twitter format 140 characters or less)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11582" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T15:44:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boy the blocking sure makes things silly to read. I feel like a theologian who has lost his mind</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things would be less silly to read if I had been less of a stick in the mud about the exact origin of that one quotation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is it Joel. THANKS TO DIVINE REVELATION, matters concerning God can be known without admixture of error. But without DIVINE REVELATION, it follows that matters concerning God are known by reason alone with admixture of error; hence the doctrine...<br />And here is another revelvant section from Vat I.<br />"If anyone says that in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that all the dogmas of the faith [even the basic ones of natural theology on God's existence] can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles: let him be anathema."<br />So, I think this is worth understanding clearly, because some think metaphysics, in itself, by reason alone, without grace, can useful to perfecting sacred theology. This -- it seems to me -- is false. It is useful when it is perfected by grace, and dogma, and faith and revelation then, once perfected, it helps brings sacred theology to completion in the Thomistic synthesis.<br />I think this is why Thomas' metaphysics is different that Aristotle's in places. Thomas' faith enabled him to perfect metaphysics; and write the Summa as a synthesis of Faith and Reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your parenthetical is wrong, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, can you please simply call me Scott? Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It could be. You can strike the entire paragraph.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11588" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T15:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are, Adrw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11589" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T15:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a very TNET spirit-embibed utterance Daniel Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrew Seeley blocked me once, because I disputed him on the issue of homosexuality. He said my opposition to homosexuality, or at least same sex attraction, was a knee-jerk reaction. My position is that same-sex attraction is a moral and natural defficiency, a kind of deficient cause, in the same way that same sex attraction is a natural cause aimed at a good and desirable end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11591" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T15:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I consider myself a TNET prophet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Indeed, our ancients stories foretell of such a prophecy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, since you spelled my name right..... okay Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks. How do you pronounce Beitia? Is it Spanish?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11595" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T16:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I already smoked the Montecristo, but there is a Cuban Romeo y Julieta for anyone in the area who wants to have a real smoker's section to this.... I will keep the Partagas though....<br />https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/.../10590638...<br />SCONTENT-B-LAX.XX.FBCDN.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11596" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T16:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a Montecrito 2 in my humidor, right now. Perks to living in Austria!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11597" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T16:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Lendman, while I got the Cubans without leaving California, I will give you that you have better access....but I can smoke a Cuban, while drinking Bourbon and cleaning a handgun...because 'Murica! I prefer my perks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-02T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-02T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer your perks, too, Joshua.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The block function on facebook is for people who cannot handle the truth. heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spanish!?!?!? a pox upon you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11601" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T17:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The TNET needle is stuck in an old familiar groove...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weinberg is Latvian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that explains everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T17:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you guys know the one about the Latvian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11605" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-02T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-02T17:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know a Latvian joke!<br />Latvian man hear knock on door, say, "who is?"<br />Voice say "is potato man, I come to give free potato."<br />Man very excite, open door.<br />Is no potato man. Is secret police.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11606" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T17:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Two Latvian are look at cloud.<br />One see potato.<br />Other see impossible dream.<br />Is same cloud.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we agree that Latvia is a free and sovereign nation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do you have magisterial authority that says that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11609" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tim Cantu" data-date="2014-09-02T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Cantu at 2014-09-02T17:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hail! Hail, Freedonia! Land of the brave and free!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11610" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T17:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Latvian man are start read thread. Thread never ends. Man dies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T17:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://socraticum.com/<br />Socraticum.com<br />SOCRATICUM.COM<br />September 2 at 5:54pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley Still in development, but you can sign up with either Facebook or Google.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T17:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Three Latvian boys conscripted into Czar's navy. Ship sails to Vancouver. Three boys jump overboard. Never look back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11613" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T18:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom Malone the Latvian jokes have begun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11614" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Caughron" data-date="2014-09-02T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Caughron at 2014-09-02T18:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Almost to 12,000. Wow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone read Longinus, the great rhetorician from the early years. Interesting how he uses the Bible, but was not Latvian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could joke about my ethnicity, but it is too long and pun is the lowest from of humor.<br />are there any Latvian saints?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like I should say "That's what she said" but I'm not sure why</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11618" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T18:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are lots of Latvian saints. St. Roland. My wife is Norwegian, and my grandmother was Italian. We have four daughters, and they are very beautiful. I am open to arranged marriage. We have land and sheep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11619" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T18:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Food for thought</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"supported in many ways by the classical liberal arts"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T18:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, Longinus, the Greek, said you cannot know the **sublime** truths of nature without the revelation of the God of Moses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11622" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(209, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T19:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My girls... Solveig (right) is 16 today. Happy b-day Solveig!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11623" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-02T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-02T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks for the invite (many hours ago), Joel HF. Please keep me posted as the seminar on DB develops.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11624" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-02T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-02T19:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg, I have five sons. I am sure we can arrange some marriages. Your daughters are beautiful, but the offer of land and sheep would seal the deal for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, I had a look at those lines, but I'm not sure they were the same ones you had recommended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In any case, I fell back to defending what I see as happening, below. Perhaps, Pater Edmund, would be interested or could steer me in a better a direction too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks like it's too long </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furiis accensus et ira terribilis: “tune hinc spoliis indute meorum / eripiare mihi? Palllas te hoc vulnere, Pallas immolat et poenam scelerato ex sanguine sumit.” / hoc dicens ferrum adverso sub pectore condit / fervidus. (Aeneid. Finis.)<br />Ablaze with the furies and terrible in wrath: “Wouldst (thou) clad in the spoils of mine be snatched away from me? Pallas by this wound, Pallas sacrifices you and takes up the punishment from your defiled blood.” Saying this, fevered he strikes the IRON deep through under the foe's chest. <br />First I'ld like to take up the final words of the poem (less two lines). Aeneas about to grant clemency, at the sight of his troth-bound ally Evander's son's belt, loses it, no? Burnt up with the furies, and terrible with wrath he flashes the anger of Achilles. It hearkens back to the “ira Iunonis” of the opening, the same as menis in Greek; the Iliad begins with wrath, the Aeneid ends in it. Pallas, who very like Aeneas' own son, who was the hope of his people, the crown prince, was struck down by Turnus. Surely it is a very different matter, a different thing, from what causes Achilles' anger: it is the loss of the hope for the future of Evander's people. But is this mere righteous anger? Before (furiis) and at the end (fervidus) he is shaking hot with anger: no less than three words to describe that, like the furies and like the goddess Juno no less; both a rage from the bowels of hell and a wrath that is proper to the gods above, we could call it Achilles' anger doubled over. He trips over Pallas' name in his anger. Is it, as he claims, Pallas who does the deed? To whom would Pallas be sacrificing then? How is it not rather Aeneas sacrificing to Pallas (or is that a reference to Athene?)? How is this not an act of revenge in hot rage? And all this, after Turnus had just conceded Lavinia. Surely the wars that follow or rather continue might have been avoided had he spared Turnus. This is not to say that Turnus is guiltless: that later. But Aeneas' opportunity to end the war is hereby lost. Regarding the sacrifice “immolat”, this reminds me of the practice of Romans to sacrifice the leaders of the conquered enemy to the fathers (patres) and for the fatherland (patria) (cf. the light-hearted play Titus Andronicus). Is he sacrificing to Pallas or rather sacrificing in Pallas' name to Pallas' FATHER and to that patria of Pallas that might have been or perhaps rather to Aeneas' future patria, Rome that will become? To put it precisely, Aeneas acting as Pallas is sacrificing in Roman custom Turnus, prince captive and chief spoil, to his father and the fatherland. Whereas the war in the Iliad was coming to a close, here the war for Aeneas has just begun but also the war to gain empire while continually expanding Rome, a war that shall last more than 700 years continuously (setting aside Numa's reign). The Iliad can't hold a stick to that. 10 years versus 700 and change (plus hundreds more at the end of the Pax Romana)!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(But perhaps by “furiis” is signified his visceral desire for revenge of the foul deed of murdering a boy, one whom Aeneas was charged to protect, a nefas deed. And by ira, to contrast, is signified a more intellectually apprehended matter of injustice to be rectified, namely Aeneas' bounden duty to render good his word with Evander, as well as repayment to Turnus for killing a king before his time and even glorying in it by taking the belt as prize and badge of honor.)<br />But the difficult phrase is more important “ferrum adverso sub pectore condit”. It is THE sentence of the poem, what we've been waiting for the whole poem. Of course condit is in direct reference to the opening lines “dum conderet urbem” and Aeneas' many attempts to do so. There is then that first obvious meaning “founds”. This is a founding act of some kind. The other two possible literal meanings here are “buries”, but this is only said of the dead, and the war is not over as I said but to continue, one after the other until Aeneas himself dies (and soon) and his body floats down a river unburied. Other cities are still to be founded before finally Rome itself. It is unlikely he is burying (or putting away) the sword which would have been by an act of clemency he did NOT do. Perhaps it could signify burying the sword into the ground under Turnus, considering the violent force and rage of the thrust. Here condit means “strikes deeply”, which is to be considered given his anger. [It could also mean “hides” or “composes” as a poem, but I don't think those are pertinent.] We are left with the literal “strikes deeply” and the obvious allusion to “founds”. “adverso” is said of the chest (pectore), the seat of wisdom where one rolls one's thoughts over. Is he striking down the mindset of those opposed (adverso) the glory of Rome? How then does Turnus, last of the heroes, oppose Rome? (I don't know.) Is Turnus, too great to submit his personal glory for the glory of the city? Or INSTEAD is the meaning that Aeneas “founds the iron age of Rome below (sub) the heart” in the seat rather of the passions? It reminds one of the advice of Anchises' shade “debellare superbos” war down the proud, but Aeneas here does not “parcere subiectis” spare the subjected, which Turnus now is: do we think Turnus will rise again and not keep his word? And in what way is Aeneas here “pacis imponere morem” imposing the custom of peace (something that must await Augustus)? Of course that's all not to say that the final 2 lines aren't unmeaningful nor the final two words “sub umbras”, under the shadows, and even the word “indignata”, (offended) portends that fury will follow fury. And how not with all Latium up in arms and the last hero dead?<br />Let me suggest a few last things that Rome, at war, for 700 years, grows and lives by ferrum, “iron”. “Iron” is the metal of the Aeneid; Homer's was the bronze age. The age of heroes is over. It is no longer for personal glory but the glory of Rome. It is with an iron sword that Rome bit by bit expands. It is the kingdom mixed of iron and clay that Daniel speaks of. But here lies another problem. It is also a reference to the founding act of Romulus, who is the real founder of Rome and does so with his own sword BURIED in his brother, a fratricide, as St. Augustine points out. Rome is the city founded on “iron” built by iron and ruled with iron, polluted in coeptis in fraternal blood. Of course, that's the worst light. But it is not so clear: clemency was often shown. Was revenge the policy? It is by Rome's very clemency and extending citizenship to allies and keeping troth with them that cemented amity in Italy and extended her dominion, such that others desired her protection and sought it. But it is a tenuous and difficult thing as borne out in her history. And it was difficult at times not to act in revenge. Perhaps that is what the poet is showing too. What does it mean to do, as Anchises advised, “regere populos imperio” to rule peoples with command, to beat down the proud with war, to show clemency to the humble (or subjected), to impose the custom of peace? And yet, I cannot see how Aeneas shows clemency or imposes peace; not so, the opposite and he has not learned. But did even Augustus? Or finally was the advice false? Did Aeneas leave hell out of the gate of false dreams and the advice given bad?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lastly, it ends here, most abruptly. We don't know what Aeneas next does nor much detail of what follows. Only that he will found a city but not Rome and wage war til he dies to be washed out to sea. Just as book seven chronicled the cause of the war and the unleashing of Bellum, hideous to behold, the final words propel the founding spirit into interminable wars to establish empire. The first word is “arma” and tis a book of a man who brings war from Troy to the peaceful coast of Italy.<br />To sum is it not an act of founding, with the necessary sacrifice and the aim implied (the glory of the Roman empire) with demonstrating the mode and means of rule all in one act and word?<br />Nefas: the belt and death of Pallas<br />Et laevo pressit pede talia fatus / exanimem rapiens immania pondera baltei / impressumque nefas: una sub nocte iugali caesa manus iuvenum foede thalamique cruenti, / quae Clonus Eurytides multo caelaverat auro; / quo nunc Turnus ovat spolio gaudetque potitus. / nescia mens hominum fati sortisque futurae et servare modum rebus sublata secundis! Turno tempus erit magno cum optaverit emptum / intactum Pallanta, et cum spolia ista diemque / oderit. At socii multo gemitu lacrimisque / impositum scuto referunt Pallanta frequentes. / O dolor atque decus magnum rediture parenti, haec te prima dies bello dedit, haec eadem aufert, / cum tamen ingentis Rutulorum linquis arcervos.<br />X 495-509<br />Turnas having slain Pallas.<br />And having said these kind of things, he pressed the unsouled (corpse) with his left foot, seizing the vast weight of the belt and the unspeakable horror [nefas] impressed: a band of youth on one nuptial night foully slain and gory wedding beds, which Clonus Eurytides had carved with much gold. In which spoil now Turnus triumphs and rejoices at having. Men's mind unknowing of fate and future hap or (how) to guard the mean, upraised by favorable things. For Turnus the time will come when greatly he would wish Pallas sold untouched, and when he'll hate those spoils and (that) day. But crowding comrades with much groan and tears bore back Pallas, placed upon his shield. O (you) much sorrow and splendor returning to your father, this the first day gave you to war, this same took you away, when still you left behind vast piles of Rutulians.<br />Though I do not comment on each point. The entire above passage is most moving and amazing.<br />Here I examine the belt, that caused Aeneas' wrath, the NEFAS both depicted and that of Turnus but this question too: does Aeneas pay back justly the nefas or take it up again as Turnus by committing one himself (sumit poenam, lit. take up the punishment upon himself)? For clearly Turnus snatches the belt but the nefas too, which makes it so ponderous. What is depicted on the belt is obscure. It is worth long inquiry. Since I was clueless except a one sentence description, I lucked into finding a lengthy article “The Sword Belt of Pallas” on google, the all knowing. It is a fascinating article that tackles this labyrinthine story and references, and some points on the belt story. The question in that article that is of great importance I think is this: Were the Danaid statues appropriated from Egypt after the battle of Actium? If so then Augustus (like Turnus) has taken up the beltium and the nefas too, just as Turnus did, glorying in possession of them. So too I ask the follow up question, did Aeneas not take up spoils from Turnus (which we don't see) but some crime? Was it nefas for Aeneas to strike down Turnus pleading for mercy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Firstly, the boy was friend to Aeneas. As Homer points out he is like Achilles, whose glory is but FOR ONE DAY, as indeed is all glory, but fleeting and often turned to infamy (cf. Ozymandias). More importantly he was prince, son of Evander. If I remember right, Evander was the first Italian ally. They were troth bound. Moreover, Aeneas promised to watch over the youth. It is this blood covenant (bound by the blood of Pallas) and the likeness of Pallas to Ascanius that is significant. Not the friendship of Achilles and Patroclus, but the Roman alliance that bound her and built her empire. Such was stronger than anything that Greece had produced which as Herodotus points out would have fallen to pieces after Salamis had Xerxes not left (following Artemisia's advice, clever gal she). The Greeks were relatively weakly bound, and I doubt would have withstood the likes of Hannibal. And it also was Hannibal's fatal error, a political one. After his greatest victory – what should have been the end of the war – Hannibal lost the war because he did not march directly on Rome, having thought he won. But from the plutocatric and Moloch worshiping ivory coast city that ruled its allies by FEAR, Hannibal did not dream that the Roman allies would not defect but instead come to her aid. And thus in winning, he lost: how profound the irony of Providence. He lost not because of an error in his art but because of an error in his ways.<br />But what of the belt? The belt is an article of distinction merely, not like a shield or helmet in Homer; it's not clear that it served as a sheathe even. It depicts nefas, unspeakable horror. Unlike the shield of Achilles which is described in pages, here two lines are given to hint at the horror – it is nefas, NOT TO BE SPOKEN, after all. It depicts the slaughter of 50 youths unripe (as Pallas) by their would be, forced to be, cousin-wives. Egyptus and Danaus, brothers at war (cf. Romulus and Remus or Augustus and Antony), dragged their offspring into the feud that would devour their own blood, ancient Ugulino's. The particulars are confusing and various in tradition, but Egyptus made his daughters kill “ferro” by sword, their own cousins to consummate the wedding and wrath at the same time: a fratricide / conjugicide. They are the Danaan origin of the incestuous rulers of Egypt (since one escaped). The article points out Cleopatra (descendent) was a serial conjugicide herself and went on to 'marry' Antony (after as we know she had seduced then deceased Julius Caesar and after Antony had married Augustus' sister): this the article points out is mentioned explicitly by Virgil by “sequitur nefas Aegypta coniunx” (“the Egyptian wife, unspeakable horror, follows.”). Is it right to glory in yet another internecine triumph, the final, after all those that had sucked dry the blood of the youth of Rome? Is Actium itself being compared to the incestuous bridal-chamber murders, most unnatural? Does Augustus, like Aeneas, put an end to foul deeds or rather take glory in them himself? Thus, Virgil in these few lines connects the battle of Actium, the original act of Aeneas, the founding fratricide, and the horror of a wedding night gone bad. Fratricide, incest, rapine, child-bloodletting, regicide are stirred in one gory pot. HOW, O HOW can this depict some right order????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But here's a clincher. It is said that Clonus Eurytides (and who is he?) engraved the belt with much gold. Virgil wouldn't waste a sentence on this detail. Here's my question. the word caelaverat (BTW from caelum) means carved or embossed. But who in his right mind would carve such a horrible deed? And it's on a belt, an article of HONOR only: a point itself of glory. Good Lord, how twisted, not only to do such a thing but to BOAST of it. Is Virgil criticizing Actium? Is Virgil criticising the ENTIRE history of Rome? (And let me note here that Aeneas, I find the strangest, least interesting, most unremarkable character in all great literature, that is character wise, speech wise. I could write much more on that. So, I have wondered whether Virgil is subtly dimming august Augustus. My only other memorable view of Augustus is from Shakespeare, in whom he appears a cynical Machiavel, but I'm less familiar with Antony and Cleopatra than Julius Caesar, wherein he coldly marks friends and foes alike for death, indifferently). But caelaverat can also refer to composing poetry as Horace points out “Mirabile visu celatumque novem musis” “wonderful to see and engraved with the nine muses (Ep. 2.2.92 from my nifty never used 160 yr. Old Latin dictionary that almost predates the era of the novel ) Thus, did Clonus engrave the crime and gild it over with MUCH gold just as Virgil is writing this nefas and gilding it over similarly? Is the nefas engraved but covered in gold an analogy for Virgil's poem, gilding a foul deed? More: making look glorious and a badge of honor what really depicts under the gold foul, foul, horrible deeds? Or to be precise to gild in beautiful gold what should not be and should not be seen or heard. Curiouser and curiouser. Not to mention again the word “arma” is first of the poem and the founding (condit) is with a sword in the end and those bellowing words of the Sybil reverberating throughout the poem and that age which still ring in my ears: “BELLA HORRIDA BELLA”. For war, as you know the Catechism of Trent teaches, is a punishment from God. And shall Rome, the city of Man, and the new Babylon, glory in its deeds of war? Did Actium extinguish the crimes of Egypt and her nefarious 'husband' or “sumit” take them upon herself? As that article suggests, did not Augustus glory in triumph at Actium? OR did he (and Aeneas too) extinguish a foul deed? THAT is the repeated question. Is order restored and peace achieved at last or is it a temporary false peace (providential) but that will not last and DID NOT LAST? Let me suggest this is but a beginning (perhaps), and I should investigate it more and it is worth investigating more. Virgil is hinting at something (and doing clear finger pointing as well) that shouldn't be spoken; it is horrible. As Daniel Lendman mentioned much earlier, there are crimes that he too would not utter, and I hesitate too. <br />Now Turnus' crime, the poet indicates, is not to kill the boy himself but in snatching the belt AND the nefas (engraved upon it). And what is nefas? What is his crime? To glory in this act that should not be gloried in (spolio ovat, gaudet potitus). Again does Aeneas himself not “sumit” take up the punishment “poenam” from the blood befouled by his own deed of not showing mercy but acting in hot revenge? Let me put it this way. The poet suggests Turnus would “wish” he might not have killed Pallas, but how is Turnus guilty of murdering Pallas, when Pallas has just gone on a rampage and heaped up piles of corpses? I don't see any opportunity for him to spare the boy who was rash in the first place to enter the battle. Not so, Aeneas, not so. Aeneas might have spared Turnus, but he was overwhelmed with passion. For which surely, too (but how much?) Turnus was to blame who like a hero at Troy would glory in a deed not to be gloried in, the killing of a stripling. But still, for a leader, and a founder of a city, more control is necessary than Aeneas displays. And as to Turnus' “crime”, might it not be overlooked because that was what was expected, that was what was done: it was the universal custom. Who did not take some trophy from battle? Who does not still? Turnus after all killed the prince of the enemy, who was indeed a leader in battle, his first, and who did glorious deeds. This, at least, might be forgiven. Moreover, too, Turnus was yet young and had been betrothed to marry Lavinia before the well curled men of the East interposed, and thus was cut off before his expected consummation and by the reneging of his father-in-law. In short Turnus is a more close comparison for the description on the belt than Pallas. Finally, Aeneas, not Turnus, had the chance “morem imponere pacis” to impose the custom of peace and did not; rather he BEAT (debellare) down the “subiectis” the humbled. In short, he SCREWED IT ALL UP. (And that's how I see many of (Augustan) Aeneas' deeds throughout. Without the wits of Odysseus, he wanders aimlessly and acts without foresight. He just follows the gods and never uses his judgement (talk about magisterialistic!!). Who was Aeneas? Who was Augustus? To me at least, Aeneas is neither endearing, nor merely ludicrous, nor again awe-inspiring, nor pitiable.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Finally, returning to the end of the poem, “indute spoliis meorum” is a bit strange. Does this indicate that that belt, that crime, that nefas, actually BELONGS to Aeneas and NOT Turnus? I say this for spoils are what we take of an enemy; to us they are not spoils. If we reacquire them, we have acquired our possessions and they are no longer articles of glory and triumph. But here he says “spoliis meorum”. And worse. Why not spoliis meis (my spoils)? Why “meorum” of mine? Who are “OF Aeneas'” if not the Romans who come here after? Spoils i.e. the belt (and the foul deeds they depict), belong to Aeneas, to the Romans. The spoils and glories of Rome: the Danaid statues (??), the triumphal arches; the prisoners led in chains; the prisoners led to be sacrificed (immolat) to the patres and for the patria, for the glory not of the individual but the glory of ROME, pagan Rome and not eternal Rome? And the honor with respect to Rome is the idol in “Julius Caesar”. Rome, iron Rome, that rules with a rod of iron and a sword and that will, like Babylon, be ruined by a rolling stone, from which will emerge Eternal Rome to be sure as well as Christendom, but is not itself eternal Rome, but the City of Man.<br />PS. A brief note on the passage from where Creusa's shade bids Aeneas leave (end Bk II)<br />“Quid tantum insano iuvat indulgere dolori, O dulcis coniunx? What does it help to indulge in such insane sorrow, O sweet spouse? This does not happen without the will of the gods; not right (fas) for you to carry away from here Creusa, a sojourner nor does that ruler of Olympus above allow. . . . [by the Tiber] there happy things and a kingdom and a royal spouse are portioned thee. Away tears of beloved Creusa. (Lacrimas dilectae pelle Creusae)” –Note the irony that Aeneas weeps, Creusa does not: womanly tears for her whom he love, but it is Creusa who is reasonable. He must leave behind all attachments to found not new Troy, but a new city altogether. As Virgil makes clear (elsewhere), nothing of old Troy shall be a part of the new Rome. Thus nothing is saved. He must follow the will of Zeus and leave his love to marry another for a higher cause, not mere lust (Dido). But I am uncertain how this affects the horrors above. Note the use of fas again. “Not fas” is not the same as nefas. Fas is right, just so. Nefas is unspeakably wrong. Aeneas must not follow his own desire to please himself. But does he purge himself of his passions? If so, how can he be so impassioned in the end? To pursue that inquiry I would need more direction.<br />PSS. Finally, a note on Rome, the destruction of which was the ending of an age and a type of the final ending. But old pagan Rome has been restored, the Phoenix is arising from the ashes. The order of the Phoenix unlike that of the Eagle, however, takes its cue from lawlessness, ab chaos ordo; and the Phoenix is a term for the one who was cast down or “the risen anointed one”. It is the (to what degree they know what they are doing I know not) Straussian project, be assured. They are rebuilding a new old Rome again. Virgil shows many other terrible aspects of the rise of empire. Certainly, there are many benefits as well, but it is very other than Christendom; not so the Phoenix, not so. I would be grateful to be shown the hope that Virgil had in the midst of the darkness which clearly he saw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I didn't have a chance to respond on Pink's argument. While Pink's essay is good. I recommend doing a ctr + F on professor "McCall". While Pink is correct, I think. He is not addressing the elephant in the room. McCall points out the lunacy of fiddling while Rome burns. Do look at his lengthy comment. For IMO the "hermeunetic of reform, of renewal" is a wild goose chase that covers for the REAL issues. Not only on liberty but elsewhere. While wasting time finding contintuity (and is that eodem sensu or is that a continuity of continuous change, bit by it?). Perhaps, Daniel Lendman, wouldn't mind having a looksee at McCall's argument. It's probably better than I can do. It was informative. But still what is meant by "reform", "renewal" and "continuity"? Is it not a means to repress (effectually if not intentional) meaningful discussion about important matters that not only are disputable but concern as McCall indicates, teachings of the Church. Gratias multas (and I'll still have to look again at the Newman, but that can sit awhile).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../on-religious-liberty... The link. Sorry.<br />RORATE CÆLI: On the coercive authority of the Church: a response to Fr. Martin...<br />RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11636" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-02T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-02T20:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow. Your textual analysis of the Aeneid is impressive, John, and it is certainly a much more detailed argument than my impressionistic comments way back when on the thread. Let me read what you have written again and think about it. In your admirable effort to be balanced, it seems to me you have not completely closed the door on the position I was taking, so let me keep one toe in that door for the moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11637" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T20:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A digression... A very cakey moment. Solveig Weinberg Sweet 16. Pray for Solveig, my dear friends. She is very good at math, and perhaps she will be first Solveig to go to TAC!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11638" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T21:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moon over Kansas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-02T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-02T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O moon, O moon,<br />So high, so true;<br />Roses shed their thorns for you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-02T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-02T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, message me that analysis? I came to unsubscribe but I saw it and want to read it since it's pertinent to a class I'm leading.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11641" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, I have not, indeed. I have just been rolling over those passages in my mind the last few days. And in the end decided to make the strongest argument I could. I do want a new direction. And I have hardly read the whole Aeneid with that much care.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11642" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will say this. That my Latin only REALLY improved when I started teaching Oerberg (Samantha above). And I only first really appreciated the Aeneid a few years ago. It was a piece of dreary work since 10th grade otherwise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11643" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Virgil's poetry translates so ill, much )worse than Homer in my opinion. It is beautiful in its conciseness and striking thoughts (which English IS NOT) .... [and my Greek is almost useless except for showing off now and again]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a lengthier bit on AUSTEN (to defend my position though not my trolling )<br />I have several complaints about Jane Austen. Henry James' “Portrait of a Lady” is thoroughly obnoxious and perhaps he skewed me a bit. But I do have the following problems (in particular with P and P which was my favorite).<br />1. The “fixing” of that ending and Darcy's selfish motive.<br />2. Dethroning duty in favor of affection. This is easily achieved in P of P because the arranged marriages were only about keeping the wealth together, already far degraded. This is quite the other than say Virgil's Aeneas.<br />3. The spiritual bankrupcy of the times. A serious flaw.<br />4. In P of P, is either pride or prejudice really overcome in the end?<br />5. Are the men, with few exceptions and those like Darcy only somewhat, anything? But that relates to number one and three and six? Who would not detest having such as one's only hope of security and income? Cruel torture indeed.<br />6. Finally, she lays seeds for modern feminism (which in its essence is a rejection of woman qua woman and is anti physin.)<br />I think these and the problem with the novel itself diminish her work in my estimation. The novel is a form that by its nature I think is ephemeral. Not that I read that many, but they wear out quickly – or I should say too quickly (it has taken many years). They present something new or amusing, with more or less depth, but they are not lasting. Even the best, their depths are plumbed and when the shortsightedness of their writers becomes clear or their less than comprehensiveness is comprehended, they lose interest. And so many authors are SO CONFUSED and confusing. That said, there are a few I would look at again. Another way to look at them is as distractions or fanning false fantasies, false idols (as Chaucer in the Canterbury Tales implies). I'll take the stories that Alban Butler writes and try not to wenden off the pilgrimage. Poetry, not so. One can savor again and again the lines of a well written poem, short or long. Similarly with drama, which in the best, ever presents something new: the old tales recast are best. But perhaps I've been reading the wrong authors. It's not that I completely disparage the art form. It presents a mirror to reality. It falls short, however, in ever inspiring wonder, or showing forth the beautiful or the true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1) What are you talking about? 2) Again, what are you talking about? There aren't any arranged marriaged in P and P. 3) What spiritual bankruptcy? 4) Yes. 5) What do you mean by "anything?" 6) Where is that WTF button we discussed earlier?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, about number 6. *What* are you talking about? How does she lay seeds for modern feminism in a way that is problematic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this more trolling? I can't tell with you. You're almost as bad as Peregrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11648" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Give up now, John. Your position has been thoroughly rebutted after what was clearly careful consideration of the individual points.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My questions are entirely sincere. I find everything John said baffling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11650" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T21:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#needsmoregnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T21:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that was directed at you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes I know. I can take an insult.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good. we can be e-friends then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">/insulting joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">her work is very worthwhile. It is not the trash James thinks, indeed better than his. But not without flaws. I am ruminating. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11656" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are better and worse ways to ask questions about things one finds baffling. "What are you talking about?" is not one of the better ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11657" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T21:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think by "arranged marriages" John is talking not about involuntary marriages, but ... let me channel my inner Austen, "a good and advantageous match"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, for what it's worth, I think I agree with your points about Austen for the most part. But I don't think I agree with the claim that the novel, as an art form, necessarily falls short of poetry or drama. Is that your claim?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there WAS an hoped for marriage. But i have had enough of my long posts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11660" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The tone of this thread continues remain amusing 11k posts in...I love it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11661" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am vastly entertained. I don't even read the regular news feed any more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He has pointed out some features of Austen's work, the substance of which are unclear to me. It is also unclear to me how most of what he points out constitutes criticism. I'm sincerely baffled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i will defer to aristotle on that. I raise an opinion i cannot defend without much work. Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there some problem with depicting a society in which an "advantageous match" was hoped for? The protagonists are never mercenary in their motives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11665" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-02T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-02T21:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ruplinger reads like a bad Straussian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And really. I really want to know what you mean by this "lays the seeds of modern feminism" bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11667" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough, John. I suppose I can really only call up individual novels as witnesses that I find DO measure up to great poetry and drama, and that isn't really an argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11668" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I think "what are you talking about?" is a perfectly reasonable way to engage a bad straussian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think, Samantha, that I am not very surprised that you are such a rabid fan of Jane Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11670" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Time to break out the ad hominem already? I thought you didn't like people who insulted women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see you are a Latin teacher. Would you allow your students to respond to one another during a discussion with any phrase along the lines of "What are you talking about?" Or would you train them to ask more pointed questions that reveal they have made the attempt to process the statement they are questioning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait why is saying someone is a rabid Jane Austen fan an insult?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're playing dumb, friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11674" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T21:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">She was a woman doing a man's work, writing a book= feminism <br />I kid, I kid. I honestly haven't read Austen recently or attentively enough to make any overarching claim/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">??? I suppose thinking I'm playing dumb is better than thinking I'm dumb, at least. It really wasn't intended as an insult, just a comment on your style. You seem like a fiery, passionate person - perhaps even like some Austen characters. Marianne Dashwood, perhaps? Again, not meant as an insult.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11676" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T21:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW, I didn't see Isak's comment as an insult...but maybe I am missing some history here.<br />But I do think we can be more pointed in our questions, and less vague in the assertions. I would like to know how Austen is, acoding the Ruplinger, laying the seeds for feminism. Is it because of how it treats marriage? That was in the era of radical changes in marriage law, especially property and divorce. At least in English influenced areas....so I could easily see it as plausible, but again my memory needs refreshing on the actual content of her work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, sorry. I'm getting too worked up about this, obviously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was reading your comments too much in conjunction with John's I suppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11679" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-02T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-02T21:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man, y'all are still talking about Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is my most tenuous claim. The society described lays the seeds. But what is feminism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11681" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-02T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-02T22:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well THAT question should take us to 13,000...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's John's fault. He was talking smack again. Confusing smack. With random anti-feminist stuff thrown in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The duty vs. affection thing confuses me a little--I thought Austen was proposing a combination of the two more than picking one or the other. or maybe i don't understand your point...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is obviously both duty and affection in Austen which is one among many reasons that John's comments are....oh never mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For example Jane's marriage to Bingley--Jane's duty to her family is met, but there is obviously disinterested affection there as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11686" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T22:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well did Austen's work inspire any masterpieces like this?<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGF5ROpjRAU<br />There is all you need. Only the greatest author could inspire such art.<br />Leonard Nimoy - The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins [FULL VERSION] - best quality<br />Sometimes, a body gets a hankering that only Leonard...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-02T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-02T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HA!<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11688" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.thewire.com/.../giant-statue-wet-colin.../66918/<br />Giant Colin Firth Terrorizes London<br />People in London are currently learning the sobering lesson that Colin Firth's sex appeal as Pride and...<br />THEWIRE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-02T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-02T22:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Touche.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11690" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Anthony Crifasi" data-date="2014-09-02T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anthony Crifasi at 2014-09-02T22:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the other hand, Austen did inspire this: http://www.independent.co.uk/.../pride-and-prejudice-and...<br />Pride and Prejudice and Zombies casts Downton Abbey's Lily James and Sam Riley<br />Jane Austen devotees, take a seat before reading further.<br />INDEPENDENT.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-02T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-02T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well done sir, well done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do not criticize Jane Austen. Repeat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do not criticize Jane Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11694" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe stick with one criticism instead of six and flesh it out a little more...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or just do it in a way that makes some bloody sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or what Michael said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11697" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(60, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like this:<br />She writes about boring crap the way Albrecht Durer paints rabbits. Very well, everything in its place. But at the end of the day all you have is a painting of a rabbit. Or beetle, or whatever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anthony Crifasi" data-date="2014-09-02T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anthony Crifasi at 2014-09-02T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will admit that Pride and Prejudice is better than the Faerie Queene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11699" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T22:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still prefer my Vermeer analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Vermeer paints people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11701" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T22:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's my point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Durer painted people too. And hands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the RABBITS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't give Austen that much credit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Anthony is correct above: Pride and Prejudice is better than a lot of fiction, Faerie Queene of Dispair included</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I literally named my daughter after a character from the Faerie Queene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-02T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-02T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked Part I of the Faerie Queene</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11708" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, my kids are all named after real people... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Faerie Queene was an exquisitely painful work to read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eh, it's just too long and repetitive. Part I is awesome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I blocked most of that reading.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11712" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just give me more Divine Comedy, thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The seminar for that is like a black hole in my memory...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel named *his* daughter after a character form the Divine Comedy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11715" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cannot for the life of me remember what we talked about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael is right and both the arguments and Michael's well reasoned position are bringing me to his position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, Nina Rachele, same here. Now, granted, our seminar WAS 15 years ago so that might be part of my problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ugh, just admitting that makes me feel old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11719" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Megan you only say that because you weren't there for my Paradiso seminar ::shivers:: our tutor just closed up his book and stared at us for the last fifteen minutes, it was so bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Why didn't he help you out?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was your tutor Seeley?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only 3 of us had finished the reading, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ouch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11724" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Appleby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ouch. Yeah, I can see him doing that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11726" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had the freshman section from hell. We had ALL the strong personalities and with Seeley as our philosopher tutor, we got into constant battles that sent Seeley into giggles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11727" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I stole Seeley's shoe in junior philosophy class once...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11728" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">too....much...estrogen.....fight back TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11729" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got so angry at Sean Collins in sophomore theology so I said something mean about Augustine and he burst out laughing. And kept laughing the angrier I got.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember Mr. Seeley wearing stuffed reindeer antlers for some KK prank.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11731" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wept in the bathroom most of 1st semester sophomore theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most of us did. Well, most of us with Collins, that is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11733" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey, there's been enough testosterone on this thread. it's time to pour tea and talk about the weather.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then my shoulder was a nonstop bruise because I sat next to O'Reilly during sophomore philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11735" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a certain classmate who fell asleep on Mr. Collins's shoulder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">DANNY GRIMM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a guess, but I'm right, aren't I?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why do people sit next to tutors, I don't get it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie Martin... if we must name names...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11740" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I felt like I needed penance or something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11741" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, I'm shocked there were *two* people who did that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11742" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:48:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I parked my ass next to freshman math tutor as soon as it became clear he would never call on me to do a prop</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">::shakes head::</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11744" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I volunteered for all of them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11745" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought I had Cain's prop system all figured out and then he mixed it up on us...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">actually, i think my freshman math tutor was the only one i ever sat next to as well, haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11747" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-02T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-02T22:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only sat next to Kolbeck, because I always hoped he would give me a hug.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had him when the beard was short</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11749" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Remember the Tweety Bird tie?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WITH the plaid shirt...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11751" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I had had Kolbeck for another class besides Freshman philosophy, blah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11752" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had him for Jr. Philosophy, and it was a dream class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he was great for Soph Theo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You didn't weep?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11755" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">very jealous...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never had Kolbeck at all. Made me very sad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Letteney for Latin was HYSTERICAL.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^haha! sounds epic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11759" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I DID have Wiker for sophomore seminar and he was amazing. Had he stayed I would have asked him to be my advisor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11760" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still think Dr. Wiker should be a founding member of the post-TAC grad program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though he might rather do something else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11762" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was fantastic. Every seminar I had with him - well, except for the Faerie Queen - was exceptional.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[What my recent-TAC-grad cousin just posted on her Facebook (she's teaching high school): "My freshmen are seemingly finding it impossible to grasp the fact that we can believe that God exists by anything other than faith. Is it really that difficult? I'm stumped. Thoughts?"]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has she introduced them to St. Thomas' 5 ways?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">She should give them that St. Paul quote I think and have them discuss it. I think that's the best place to start...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11766" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I think that's the problem. (I was joking by posting this -- since it goes back to one of the original discussions on this infernal thread...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11767" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">c'mon ladies, your memory lane chit-chat should take us over 12K in about 10 minutes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rom 1:20?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11769" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11770" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm trying to do some Peregrine-baiting, Beetia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11771" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All-right, more memory chit-chat. Let's take TNET over the edge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can go away now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, you instigator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once Mr. Kolbeck almost walked out of my freshman philosophy class...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11775" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">c'mon Catherine, you know that without magisterial proclamations, no one could ever know that God exists (just don't tell St. Paul that)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11776" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Paietta most certainly stormed out of our freshman Theology class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At LEAST once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seeley just laughed at our philosophy class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11779" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Coughlin snarked in Theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stormed? I would have paid to see him storm. I had him for 3.5 hours on Tuesdays freshman year... lab and then Seminar. ooof. (RIP pi-pi)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we were a half hour away from the end and you could hear crickets chirping and he was like "let's stop here"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Try having Hartmann for sophomore lab. We nearly set the trailers on fire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11783" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then me and Brian Hong did some fast talking and we ended up finishing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok! we're so close guys.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11785" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel sorry for those who never had Molly Gustin. Those hours were priceless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11786" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of my favorite moments was when Mr. Nieto mentioned casually that most females including humans were physically affected by the moon's phases, shocking a few (non-homeschooled) girls in the class. They raced for the computer room to verify right after class ended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha wow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ALL right ladies. Some advice. . . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">1 of my favorite memories? James Hanson and Fr JP Erickson making me the tester for all the chemicals, including substance D.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know, I never had Gustin, Neumayr, McArthur, Letteney, O'Reilly, Quackenbush, Appleby, and several others. I wonder who I did have?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11791" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh dear, is he going to be asking for our advice or giving us advice?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You never had O'REILLY? I had him twice!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well its like this . . . . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11794" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">12,002 </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You got it, Megan. 12,000. Now who woulda thunk it back at 1,100?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11796" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-02T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-02T23:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">too late! we passed 12000 so goodnight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my wife and i have a disagreement . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11798" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm so proud I got the 12,000th comment. I just wish it was on something more profound than O'Reilly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's seems to be an ultimatum of sorts. . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11800" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">They can only _believe_ that God exists by faith</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11801" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to be pedantic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-02T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-02T23:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is about TNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now we should get to 13692</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11804" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">just kidding. But good on the pick up, Catherine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-09-02T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-09-02T23:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Collins for senior lab - amazing class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Emily: so did I!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We were about 18 pages behind everyone. We barely touched the actual math in Einstein. It was delightful - all theorizing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11808" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had Collins too... I spent two days demonstrating the math of the Lorenz transformations on the board to a class full of soon to be college graduates, half of whom couldn't do algebra.... sad, really</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did anyone else have Shields for junior math?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry check that, lab</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-02T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-02T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Collins didn't do a lot of math with us in senior lab. I heard he changed his method shortly after our class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I kinda wish I wasn't as out of it Senior Year. After working out all the proofs and stuff in Newton and Descartes (including various alternate proofs for things I thought didn't work), I had kinda burnt out by the time I got to the math in Senior lab.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a shame. It was simple, elegant and beautiful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah: I kinda followed along half heartedly. But I could tell there was alot of amazing stuff going on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11816" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, I loved Dedekind and some of the other readings in Senior math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So how exactly do you get into college without algebra (though i prefer Euclid for mathematika, things understood)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's funny, they do Lobochevski in Senior math, but the Gauss in the same book is much more elegant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lobachevski was kinda cool because he uses a whole collection of different kinds of proofs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">His non-constructive existence proof was particularly neat: although, I spent most of the class trying to show people that it actually proved something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do they do in Senior Lab now? Anyone know?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they've changed it since I was there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I was there, the highlights were Newton's Opticks, Maxwell and Faraday on electromagnetism and Einstein</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier just taught it last year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rumor is they moved Darwin there and moved Einstein to math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is kinda amusing, since Einstein has the world's most physicalist (if that's even a word) interpretation of math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard that too: Dr. Ferrier indicated to me that he and MacArthur had been working on a proposal to that effect: add genetics and QM and move Einstein to math, but I don't know when or if they implemented it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, the rumor (may it be false!) is they eliminated the electromagnetism section.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At the Aristotelian conference two years ago, Nieto was studying electromagnetism so he could teach it the upcoming year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11830" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think they should keep Faraday/Maxwell</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see how you do relativity w/o it, myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Take c as a postulate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say just curious. Has anyone heard that Jacob Klein was an esoteric a la Strauss?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know but in my experience Johnnies have strong Heideggerian inclinations, especially when reading Aristotle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Heidegger an esoteric philosopher now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe not intentionally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11837" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And he forgot to include an exoteric meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11838" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as one who hasn't studied Heideger, what does that mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, seriously, my intention was to indicate their apparent intellectual inclinations, not to directly answer the Straussian question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For one thing, they often seem to try to distance the understanding of Aristotle from Aquinas's positions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of curiosity, do St. John grads have the problems we have w/ getting placed in academia? I do know they have a similar reputation (earned or not) for arrogance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-02T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-02T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">they have good taste</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Klein was a student of Heidegger, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11845" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But they tend to obfuscate the clear passages in Aristotle to match their readings of the more obscure passages.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11847" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-02T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-02T23:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(And I may be slightly biased by interactions with one particularly loud Johnnie.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11848" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">From what I've heard, Johnnies have more variation amongst them, as St. John's itself has less of an official position and is more of a straight up great books school. Of course, St. John's does take a position by choosing what to read and all that, but less so than TAC, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I definitely have some sympathy for the Straussian inerpretation. But think Aquinas got the truth right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11850" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What Straussian position?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Klein was helpful in my intellectual develpment. But Braun seems a big drop off. Johnnies are arrogant in their scepticism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What Straussian position were you referring to, John Ruplinger?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Position?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-02T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-02T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interpretation, that is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-02T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-02T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Averroes, Machiavelli, Nietzche: i don't know if they are wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-09-02T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-09-02T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know that the senior lab program was in flux when I was there. Collins put much more of an emphasis on Maxwell than the other sections did.<br />I feel like I read Einstein without understanding him. Although, to be fair, that was true of quite a bit of the curriculum senior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11857" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Malone" data-date="2014-09-02T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Malone at 2014-09-02T23:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I had to scroll a *WHOLE FIVE MINUTES* to find where you mentioned me. I hate you.<br />To the lot of you, things of this nature are best suited for classrooms, oratories, or whiskey bars. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11858" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T00:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, i need to spend more time on Aquinas. I find the greats very helpful. Straussians not so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">by that i mean only in their (Aver,Mach, Strauss) interpretation. My good friend and mentor is trying to refute their latest and having trouble. He is much brighter than I. And no one else is trying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11860" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-03T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-03T00:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree, Tom Malone, things of this nature are totally suited to TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11861" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T00:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I don't think the addition of whiskey consumption to this thread would result in a very noticeable difference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11862" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More songs, maybe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11863" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T00:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Benedict I've regularly consumed adult beverages (especially whisky) while posting to this thread: so any difference it could make it has already made.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was certainly one of my intended meanings. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-03T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-03T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, songs...yes, there can never be too many of those...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T00:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's partly why I hope Jeffrey Bond would meet him. They have both grappled with the Straussians and have similar dispositions. Both love Plato (not to be confused with Platonism).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11867" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most of the S. John's graduates I've encountered have been absolutely delightful. If there's a reputation for arrogance there too, I still say it's not a fair universal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T00:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's the real question. If St. John's College graduates are called Johnnies, why are Thomas Aquinas College graduates not called Tommies?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T00:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Much more fun than the common and awkward "TAC-er."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T00:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We could be the "Tackiers"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only know one Johnny personally and he is a great guy. But the conditions are there. Another like school exudes arrogant scepticism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11872" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T00:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, do you mean the school itself? Its administration? Its philosophy? Surely not its graduates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley from Shimer!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11876" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T01:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to be called a Tommy. It sounds kinda tough. Like Tommy guns.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are sceptics and there are few so arrogant as they. Ironic fact. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, not sure I understand the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Klein was friends with Strauss but they were not in agreement. They were both students of Heidegger. There is a rumor floating about that Klein too was an esoteric. I don't see it. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11880" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read much of Klein.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eva Brann on the other hand appears very sceptic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11882" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you mean Eva Brann? I doubt St. John's hired Hitler's wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_11884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She was the head at St. John's for a long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Brann<br />Eva Brann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Eva Brann (born 1929) is a former dean (1990–1997) and the longest-serving tutor (1957–present) at St. John's College, Annapolis, and a 2005 recipient of the National Humanities Medal.<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG<br />September 3 at 1:24am · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley "In her early years at St. John's, she was very close to Jacob Klein. After Klein died, Brann increasingly assumed his role as the defining figure of St. John's, the St. John's program, and the continuing dialogue with the Great Books represented by the program."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11887" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_11888" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honestly, I just drink and look in from time to time. And I can't believe...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone post some links to some good Eva Brann writings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11890" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-03T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-03T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of the many cheap beers on offer at TJ's, only Simpler Times is truly undrinkable. #nametag</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh Matthew - I remember when some friends of mine tried to get into Simple Times because it was so cheap at Trader Joe's. We all found it rather - well - bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, yes, "Straussians" make great debating partners.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11893" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:31:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/author/eva-brann<br />Eva Brann, Author at The Imaginative Conservative<br />THEIMAGINATIVECONSERVATIVE.ORG<br />September 3 at 1:29am · Like · Remove Preview<br />Matthew J. Peterson Not that I need sparring partners. All I have to do is post a pic of a cheap-o beer and I get flak.<br />But this - this is the price of TNETdom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11894" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The flak attack from the Tommy gun!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11895" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-03T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-03T01:32:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET has become my entire Facebook experience. I'm being serious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11896" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away - I used to favor Lucky Lager as my cheap swill of choice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11897" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When in Texas, I generally go for Shiner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did have a little silver patron earlier, not that that's all that - but just a pinch of courage for the TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11899" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-03T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-03T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've pounded more Milwaukee's Best than you could possibly imagine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, I don't mind shiner or yuengling as cheap swill beers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11901" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Simpler Times is better than other cheap beers, and has a stronger alcohol content....well depending whether one is speaking of Sipler Times Lager or Pilsner...one is okay when cold, the other slips behind PBR</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some of their limited-distribution beers are not bad at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beast</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-03T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-03T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Busch, too. Lots of Busch. Oy vey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ouch. If we're confessing, there was also a Mickey's malt liquor period of my young life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11906" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be honest I used to buy it as beer I would let others drink...for good cheapo Trader Joes beer, Trader Jose's Dark was actually good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In San Antonio, you must check out Blue Star. Perhaps the best brew ever and I WAS a brewmeister </p>
</li>
<li id="post_11908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I've drunk two Bud Lights . . . but I generally forgo cheap beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund needs to shrive us of our beer-y sins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And just drink it less frequently</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11911" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once drank 18 Tecates in one night once</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11912" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Y'all should come over and have some of this stout I brewed up, BTW)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I had Blue Star and liked it - how long has it been around?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11914" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-03T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-03T01:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In high school I drank 2 40s of Colt 45 and passed out behind the Rustic Canyon Community Center.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11915" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once went to confession immediately after going to a beer festival...is it shriven if you are still inebriated while confessing inebriation? (Ok it wasn't that bad...just a bit tipsy)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11916" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz: now we're getting real. Tecate is or used to be one of those youthful beverages that when the moon is right you can just...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">brewing my most famous beer lead to wedding bands . . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11918" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay 16th birthday...9 beers, a shot of Everclear, a shot of Vodka, a shot of Kahula, and a shot of somethin I know not what.... my brother passed out at that point, and I went to bed.....what was funny were the mad libs we had tried doing while drunk....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-03T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-03T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once put money on the Kentucky Derby and then popped into a confessional on Lexington Ave to ask if it was a sin to bet on the ponies. I believe the priest, A Dominican, told me he wasn't sure. LOL. True story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-03T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-03T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET, so epic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11921" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now I need a drink....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, unless you're spending money that you had a duty to spend on necessities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A while. Joey brewed a double bock 'ipa ' that was amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11924" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My son appreciates that last drop in the empty IPA bottle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11925" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once after a few adult beverages under the bridge, my companions forsook going down unto the pit on account of gang bangers hanging out there.<br />I went anyhow. They were drinking cheap beer and tequila from a central sacred bottle. We communed and I partook. Some girl asked me my name, afraid I'd forget it. Some dude showed me scars from where he took bullets.<br />Solidarity all around. They all signed the bottle with gang names. I went back to campus and my mind fell apart like a 2 year old who has been up hours past bedtime via candy and soda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No TACer remained with me, as I recall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are time when young when you just have more juice than the booze and can outrun it. The human body is amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11928" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There we go... nothing like Absynthe!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11929" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, a good dram of Lagavulin is up there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(unless you refer to alcohol content)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11931" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think drinking JD and other cheap whiskies is the most amazing thing I recall. I mean, finishing a bottle?!? Whaaa..?!? And then walking around campus and eating cereal while talking to people about great books. Lord save us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11932" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lagavulin is a fave. You guys had Ardbeg?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mhm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Absynthe aint what it used to be. Ya know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not in a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11936" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(205, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best conversation are whilst imbibing. I remember giving a talk at the DSPT, and the enjoying Absynthe afterwards with Fr. Michael... great conversing drink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WRFJwGsbY<br />Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl - Philospher's Song<br />An oft-forgotten gem from the Pythons.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11937" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Christopher Luke" data-date="2014-09-03T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Christopher Luke at 2014-09-03T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trevilla In Vino.. bbuuuuuurp... itas!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11938" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger, the wormwood content is the same. Just no leaded glas anymore</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz I've had some great absynthe - but not enough over time to figure out the vibe. Feels like a summery drink to me still, but I've enjoyed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11940" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No lead. No more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11941" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T01:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be honest, I would prefer Bourbon, but I am poor and I have this at hand (bought it and forgot about it a while ao)<br />You need a few glasses to feel it out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11942" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T01:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My go to single malt is Laphroaig 10yr. Mostly because it's reasonably priced for such drinks. Otherwise, I get a decent blend: something by Johnny Walker, or Black Bottle (currently).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11943" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T02:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of my fav drinking stories: we left TAC to go ... boating ... boating ... on Lake Piru.<br />Sausages. BBQ. And bricks of cheap beer. Sun. Illegal swimming. Good friends.<br />We pulled in to the station to refill our cups. We were in our early 20s. We shone like the sun. Empties were all over. We were wet from swimming. No life jackets. Man on the bow. Breaking every rule. So they pull us over.<br />And a dear friend. Who shall not be named. Driving the boat (named the "Jackie Treehorn", because it held a lot of water in that town, and you don't hold crap Lebowski). <br />He was asked how many he'd had. His lie-ish answer, trying to low lowball but remain realistic re the day? To the police on the lake?<br />"I've had...5 or 6...officer."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11944" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How are we all still alive?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11945" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T01:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And in how many ways is this Thread going to destroy what little chance I had of tenure anywhere?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The boat police let us go. Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another amazing single malt is any bottle put out by Kilchoman: noticeably peaty, but not overpowering. It's quite amazingly well balanced. Only problem is, you can't find a bottle for <$50</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Need to try that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[cv filler: "whether straussians are crypto thomists?"]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11950" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should maneuver myself to become the world's expert on the philosophy of scotch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11951" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T02:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Publications are publications.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure there's a tenure-track position in that field somewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T02:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps University of St. Andrews?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T02:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best 2 translations of the Politics anyone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11955" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T02:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always liked Carnes Lord, but that's because of what Aristotle says at the end of book 2 of the Metaphysics,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T02:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't think of a second translation of Politics, but I like Sach's translation of the Nic. Ethics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T02:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T02:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lord is Lord: so say the Straussians exoterically of course. But what they really say. . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T02:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"TRANSLATION!?" SB</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T02:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">actually that would have been in Greek if it were SB</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T02:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Carnes Lord and Benejamin Jowetts (as in Barnes Completes works of Aristotle) are the only two I have read...unless you count Moerbeke....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T02:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have Loeb and Lord. Jowetts is terrible without the Greek, terrible. He even skips "uninteresting" sections.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11962" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T02:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T02:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, so I have relied on Lord. I only used the Barnes because I had it, it was usually, where different, better than Ross, and sometimes you need a more readable, though less accurate text, as a primer before, say, reading one of the hyperliteral translations passed around at TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11963" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T02:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T02:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Barnes himself is annoying as hell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T03:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T03:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Loeb translators are meant to be an aid as I understand. They are poor otherwise. My favorite Greek translators are Grene, Lattimore, Hobbes, Dryden et al., and the Straussians. Chapman's Homer too. They are great unless you know better in which case let me know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T02:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T02:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say it also depends on the work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11966" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T02:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can only speak to the Aristotle translations from the Loeb. The Physics translation is horrible. The Posterior translation is rather good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T02:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like Lattimore's translation of the New Testament actually...wouldn't use it in theological argument though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11968" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T02:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T02:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grene and Lattimore have mastery of English and Greek. They are literal and try to keep the flavor and poetry as well. Very admirable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11969" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T02:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T02:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lattimore; his NT is outstanding</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T02:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T02:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua why wouldn't you use it in argument?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T02:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T02:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grene's Herodotus is just far better than anyone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T02:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1. People are dismissive of it (for Catholics, no imprimatur, for protestants I have encountered "he is treating it as literature)<br />2. People have complained to me of the difficulty of finding the verses<br />3. I generally find people unfamiliar with it, and hence less willing to trust it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T02:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">those are all bullshit reasons except maybe the first one, for Catholics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T02:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">his NT is so much better than most of what Protestants use, I can tell you that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11975" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T02:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Better than what most of what Catholic use too!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T02:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never had a problem with TAC translations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T03:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have had one problem. One prof always gives me grief if I say "without intertwining."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T03:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The proper solution to that is to return the compliment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T03:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11980" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T03:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T03:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially the RSV-CE (seriously, other than the longer ending of Mark, 90% of the changes are "brothers > brethren") Daniel Lendman, if he remembers, can confirm that when doing Aquinas on the Pauline Epistles even the DR was more faithful to the Greek (NA-27)than the RSV-CE, despite being a "translation of a translation"<br />Though I would note the RSV-CE is worse than the protestant RSV, in that it was based on an earlier version of the RSV that was a looser translation. The later version tightened up standard a bit, but coyright issues, not actually concern over accuracy, affected the editorial decision of those that made the RSV-CE...the most overrated translation in Catholic circles....oh how I annoyed my tutor at TAC by refusing to use it (though I had it, along with the DR at every clas).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11981" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T03:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T03:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sort of wish I was much better at Greek (let alone Hebrew, Syriac, etc) The consensus nowadays is that only a group effort, a committee can make a scholarly translation. But I think that is BS...it makes a disjointed, conflicted and often ecclesiatico-political driven translation. A unified voice can be worth something. So I would love to translate the bible as such....but I am not nearly competent enough in the Greek to even attempt the NT...<br />Of course I am sure we all think we can do better than the other guy....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T03:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The St Jerome one man method is given short shrift.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T03:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The New Jerusalem Bible" by commitee. . . . . . I like accountability too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11984" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T03:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T03:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, not even a rough translation just to start off?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T08:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T08:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would be suprised if the DR didnt at least consult the Greek (NT).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11986" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T03:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T03:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I took a reading class on the Gospel of John about five years ago. Some of the easiest Greek I've encountered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11987" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T03:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T03:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the DR is a shockingly accurate translation. I say shockingly, of course, because it is a translation of a translation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-03T04:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-03T04:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I totally agree that committee translations are a bad idea. Robert Alter's translations of parts of the OT are awesomely good; I hope he translates the rest of it too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11989" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-03T04:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-03T04:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ideal English Bible: OT Alter; NT Lattimore; format something like this: http://www.bibliotheca.co/#about<br />Welcome<br />Bibliotheca is an alternative to our customary Bibles, and is meant solely to reestablish the powerful literary thrust of...<br />BIBLIOTHECA.CO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11990" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T07:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T07:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cannot believe a TAC alumnus is complaining about "Simple Times." When I was there TACers would drink such poisonously cheap stuff that not two could drink today and live! Where is the skunked Milwaukee's Beast? The Steel Reserve? And such liquors as have no name and are bought in plastic jugs at Safeway?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T07:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T07:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Early times. Good enough for Walker Percy, good enough for drinking on a rocky dirt patch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11992" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T07:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T07:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, I mostly just whisked the elect off to my beach house where Grama would foot the bill for Tanqueray and craft beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11993" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T07:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T07:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the Politics I'm thinking triangulating between Lord and Sachs is probably ideal but there are a few out there I haven't even cracked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11994" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T07:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T07:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing like steeling one's reserve, as a friend used to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11995" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T08:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T08:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vons Charcoal filtered vodka. 'nuff said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11996" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T08:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T08:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kind of bummed I had to sleep through the Scotch conversation. I had much to add, but, as they say, TNET waits for no man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T08:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T08:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, did you ever suffer through the Tijuana cigarettes? I'm surprised we all don't have cancer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11998" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T08:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(73, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T08:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or woman. I'm still sad my weak, tired body made me miss my chance to talk Anna Karenina with Katie Duda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_11999" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T08:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T08:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">man as in species, not gender.... touchy much?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12000" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T08:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T08:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do Catholic liberal arts people talk so much about scotch and Russian tragic novels? Too much math perhaps?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12001" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T08:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T08:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was concurring. You are the one who is touchy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12002" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T08:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T08:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am saddened by the recent deterioration of our e-friendship, Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T08:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What started with such a promising mutual admission of jerkishness has become mutual mistrust and suspicion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just for you I was going to speak in gender inclusive language ALL DAY. (the above comment was a joke, FWIW):<br />"man or woman, by nature, desires to know"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T08:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please don't. Everyone hates me enough already.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12006" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T09:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T09:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">name him or her that hates you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12007" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-03T09:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-03T09:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always talk tragic Russian literature, while thinking to myself I should have stuck with the math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">EVERYONE. Just kidding. Everyone is nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T09:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T09:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He or she has probably just had too much TNET. <br />Katie: you can say that twice....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, Katie, don't you think I'm right about Stiva?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've got about five minutes, let's settle this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And we have all had too much TNET, Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-03T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-03T09:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm trying to find that comment, Samantha. But if I remember correctly, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12014" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHA you'll never find it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12015" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T09:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">find? don't ever hit previous comments....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12016" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T09:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a Lewisian rabbit hole you'll never find the end of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said that Stiva is worthless, and Dolly is solely responsible for everything good in their marriage and family, basically</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12018" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-03T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-03T09:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought fixing my footnotes was bad...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-03T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-03T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More or less, yes. She's also the one who can be happy with the family. (I am thinking her conversation with Anna most specifically)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found Dolly *much* more interesting the last time I read AK (first time since becoming a mother)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T09:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">five minutes are up. see y'all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12022" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T09:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T09:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">One word: chartreuse</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12023" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T09:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or, in my case, not enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there such a thing as too much math?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">like philosophically?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-03T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-03T10:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does *too much philosophically* mean? Or is it just a way to say you can't have too much of a study of quantity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-03T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-03T10:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I'm avoiding those footnotes)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12028" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-03T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-03T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of math / this keeps showing up in my feed...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12029" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie, it was to distinguish from too much math as in "I have twenty pages of partial differential equations to solve" too much. <br />Is it possible to know and study too much math? for most people, there is no math more difficult than adding (I suppose occasional percents, if one were to bother figuring out sales tax). So if we're going to study *any* math, outside of learning how to count, can there be too much?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it requires moderation. Especially in youth who are excellent at it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It can lead them to think that is the only real truth because it is easier to gras p.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . . . . . . or</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12033" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">wasn't it Poincare who said "the pure mathematician studies mathematics not because it is useful, but because he delights in it, and he delights in it because it is beautiful"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12034" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">IMHO, however, mathematics is the most knowable science in and of itself. So if we are to be knowers, it is probably best that we start by knowing the most knowable. I told my algebra students (back in the way back when I taught math) that disliking algebra was a sign of good taste. If it is unintelligible, there's probably a problem with how it is presented. Mathematics is a good counter to skepticism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . . (they become Beitia's). But seriously the young mathmetician should be kept away until he is better rounded. After that, it is fine. It reminds me of my struggles trying to balance a curriculum where most of the board members were mathemeticians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12036" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">when my wife's cousin was getting a degree in Biology I used to tease him saying: <br />Biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied physics, and physics is applied math. So you're studying applied applied applied math. Skip the middle man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT MB. That is the problem. Algebra is not taught well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12038" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is an absolute failure. The Alg. I book I had started off with "there are collections of things, some of these things are called sets" WTF!? how about we start with the knowable first, like, IDK, COUNTING?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12039" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I showed some students how the quadratic formula is just a generalization from "completing the square" - minds blown! They were truly surprised that it came from somewhere</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dont say no math. Just not excessive. Most students shouldnt do calculus in HS. ESPECIALLY the way it is taught.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hah I had 4 years in high school (last year was independent study)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you are an exception. I said most. AND IT IS TERRIBLY taught.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12043" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T11:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">horribly. worse taught than most subjects. It generally boils down to memorization for most students, and no notion of the organic development of mathematical ideas. If I was more energetic, like Peterson, I'd actually try to do something about it. But I'm not. I just work with my kids.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously. If you dont know the derivation of the quad. formula, what is the point? What you "know"? I know a principal that introduces Euclid well and with interest in 7th grade.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T11:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT setting aside how badly it is taught, it is an art. There are others that take more time. There are more than 1 (or 2) liberal arts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">4 are math, thank you (and one could claim logic too.... I think there may be an argument there)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . i have a problem with people like you. You are proving my point. They think everything is math. . . . It all becomes numbers which leads to one inevitable conclusion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as Walker Percy might say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . "TO THE GAS CHAMBERS!" (with you non mathemeticians )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12050" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes yes to the gas chambers<br />#unlessyouhavegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">logic is not math, you usurper. It is precisely YOU people that have ruined the world . You . . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . NAZIS /TNET </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12054" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">GODWINS LAW : 12263</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but does it count really? If you were intentionally trying to allude to godwin's law in jest?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it doesn't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12057" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what do I have to do to get called a Nazi?<br />#Hitleriangnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12058" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T12:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12059" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, do you have Hitleriangnosis? Help me out here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12060" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T12:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am in Austria and that is highly impolitic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re: math. I learned (at least some) algebra, forgot all of it before I went to TAC, had to learn it all over again from scratch basically, forgot it again immediately, and it will have to study it from practically zero if I ever decide to take the GRE. <br />Some people just have a greater aptitude for mathematical disciplines. My aunt was the same way. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but some things just make more sense to other people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I'm an Aryan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12063" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">fair enough. <br />Freshman year at TAC Ms. Zedlick said my roommate had a nice German name. He told her it was Austrian. She said "same thing"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOT the same thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More or less.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12067" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">tell that to a Prussian, I suppose</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12068" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:26:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was she just trying to annex Austria with one remark?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12070" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but to the point of math, Catherine, I think it is a grave defect in the teacher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That could be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12072" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or the text, in the case of most high schools</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12073" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or both. there's sooo much blame to throw around</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am Prussian and Austrian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I've watched some people struggle FAR less with the same problems/processes. Perhaps it was their previous preparation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the Austrians ruled Germany for many centuries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12077" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not at the same time and in the same respect, Daniel, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">probably. And some people are just smarter than others (re: math)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12079" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But some people are smarter than others (re:words)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12081" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">until that whole defenestration problem...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12082" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some people "get" poetry, and often not the same people who "get" math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and vice versa.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12084" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose meter has nothing to do with poetry right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There were only a VERY few at TAC when I was there who were truly excellent in both areas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#allismath</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#mathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">full circle (see math reference)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12089" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure I'm repeating comments and themes, but that's a requirement of TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who defenestrated whom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">only ever had 2 students who couldn't get algebra in MS. They were . . . . . well the world needs ditch diggers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12092" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET has no requirements. TNET requires all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12093" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the protestants in Prague threw some Catholics out a window.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12095" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-03T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-03T12:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TWICE!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12096" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose this is a bad time to stump for my new political party: UPDP?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, as in a Defenestration problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's more physics and physiology than math, though....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">UPDP?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't ask</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone can get poetry too. That also is mistaught badly. And mixing in complete excrement doesnt help one get it. But i do agree with CR</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12102" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"United People's Defenestration Party" <br />We would like to throw politicians out windows</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12103" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12104" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetry is rarely read out loud, and that's a problem, but most kids are not trained to read out loud, and are very very very bad at it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12106" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I taught writing, I could tell which students had parents who read to them aloud. Their writing ability reflected their ability to hear correct and beautiful words and phrases. (Or inability as the case may have been.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12107" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T12:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">reading aloud is important in my house. (as is constantly having to tell children to SLOW DOWN - you're reading to someone else, not to yourself aloud)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12108" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T12:53:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of meter, I found this to be a somewhat curious but helpful book for teaching such things: http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Metrical.../dp/1582974152<br />Writing Metrical Poetry: Contemporary Lessons for Mastering Traditional Forms<br />Write poetry in the great metrical tradition of Dante,...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T13:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure this was discussed before (what wasn't?) but I don't think meter is actually necessary for poetry, just emphasis on line.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12110" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">A Modern Poem:<br />This is a<br />poem because<br />I hit<br />the enter key<br />at<br />random.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too much rhyming, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you just used conventional capitalization and punctuation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12113" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />a mOderN poeM:<br />thiS Is a<br />poeM Bec.ause,<br />i\ (randomly).<br />hit the keYboard;<br />-- e. lAngley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The inversion at the end is to fancy and classical. Otherwise, well done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Correceted that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12116" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">although the word order in the last line does sound too classical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that's what I meant. Maybe I should change my last line as well, to "at random." In fact, I think I will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12118" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone could probably write a whole essay on the power structures enforced by the conventional use of a period to end sentences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12119" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">e e cummings <br />what a<br />c***</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaugh! stupid shift+enter!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymaga.../browse/76/4...<br />July 1950 : Poetry Magazine<br />Read the latest issue of Poetry magazine-- the oldest monthly devoted to verse in the English speaking world--...<br />POETRYFOUNDATION.ORG<br />September 3 at 1:26pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Joel HF He defies parody.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, I think it depends on what you mean by "meter". I think a poem should have a definite rhythmic structure, but poets like Hopkins and Eliot often manage to pull that off without using the traditional grecoroman metrical schemes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm Latvian but really Prussian. A Coorlander. My great Uncle was a giant. 6'-7".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12124" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you really just call E.E. Cummings what I think you did?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hopkins developed this thing called sprung rhythm. The rhythm gets a little bit tighter, then spring open.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12126" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew you were a little premature w/ that like, Langley!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you really think modern poetry is just hitting the enter key at random?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was a modern poem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Eliot kind of deconstructed verse. He was trying to ride the tude of deconstruction, so as to maintain some remnant of classicism. Seems to me he succeeded, but it needs to be reconstructed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not all of it. But much of it, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12131" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, Hopkin's claim is that it's the natural rhythm of the English language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I think it can be traced back to Beowulf and such.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I almost think modern poetry is not worth reading. Compare Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf to Pope's translation of the Illiad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12134" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeats is the one great modern poet in English</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeats, yes, he is, but did he not digress into occult mysticism, personally and poetically?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeats is great, to be sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12137" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and depends on what you mean by "occult mysticism"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So his subject did not transport to God or the moral heights.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12140" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hopkins had a metrical system, whatever one thinks of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hopkins: sprung rhythm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12142" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that wouldn't follow, Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is about to get really good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what wouldn't follow what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that Yeats' poetry doesn't rise to God or moral heights</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never been able to get into Yeats myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12147" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeats' subject is the journey of modern man back to some sort of unity of soul, and God most definitely makes an appearance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Must. resist. urge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12149" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">to post Smiths' video!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can disagree on Yeats. But he was quite something. <br />Tolkien wrote a seminal essay on criticism titled "Beowulf, the Monsters and the Critics," in which he asserted that the philosophers of language had taken form out of stories by examing too closely the minutiae of words and letters, as if those words and letters were blocks which were once part of a tower from which you could view the ocean; but they recognized them only as blocks, and not part of this form. I think the same thing has happened to poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^agreed; and there are other problems/causes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sigh that kiss you,<br />For I must own<br />That I shall miss you<br />When you have grown.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What other problems/causes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And solutions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So spring rhythem evidently morphed into free verse, and the silvery polish of Seamus Heaney and the like; and Virgil and the ancients, I understand, were not strict formalists either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">for one thing, a hyper-Romantic notion of poetry which so valorizes "making" that that it is concerned to have the poem "be" the act of poiesis ,and leaves aside final poetic form as a sort of constraint; this produces all kinds of things from Symbolism to "language poetry"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12158" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that Yeats was not!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Def not; Yeats as a master craftsman and it was all about the form of the made thing for him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Irish poets, learn your craft, and all that...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12161" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">learn your trade, sing whatever IS WELL MADE, scorn the sort now growing up...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12162" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">...all out of shape from toe to top</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The form of some of the ancient Hebrew poetry in the Old Testament is interesting. The parallelism, where the thoughts come in threes; it is kind of a free verse, definitely poetry and not prose, and is compelling emotionally and logically, rhetorically. I'll try to find an example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Edward what can I do to help you get into Yeats</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, the really great mathemeticians are nothing but a bunch of lazy poets, but much smarter than the average poet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure, perhaps I haven't read the right poems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12167" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, perhaps the great poets were just lazy mathematicians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(61, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Lazy and stupid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12169" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T13:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">who traded rigor for ease.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward how about this:<br />http://www.bartleby.com/148/3.html<br />3. An Irish Airman foresees his Death. Yeats, W. B. 1919. The Wild Swans at Coole<br />BARTLEBY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">random entry >> some "poetry. And I like Hopkin's meter. Is it modern or a restoration, do you think?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, who had to find out easy things the hard way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12173" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw this "poets are lazy mathematicians" is bullshit. A computer can do higher math; it cannot write a real poem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, who had to take that road less travelled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12175" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T13:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bull**** -- is that a metaphor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you, JA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward I'm waiting for news of your conversion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">one swallow doth not a summer make</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I expected that. So here:<br />http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/E910001-055.html<br />Meditations in Time of Civil War<br />The works by W. B. Yeats are in the public domain. This electronic text is available with prior consent of the CELT programme for purposes of private or academic research and teaching.<br />UCC.IE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A computer can do higher math" much as Siri can read a poem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Siri can read one; it can't *write* one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Give her some time: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Can-YOU-spot-ROBOT-Website...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If a poet and a mathematician were stranded on the floor of the Grand Canyon, the mathemetician would build a rocket to propel himself out in a minute. The poet instead will grab his pencil, and his donkey, and begin the slow trek upwards, winding to and fro, up the chiseled path, drawing his sights upward from the marred and craggy dust, toward the beauty of the distant view that God has pulled together. In the end, he will meet up with the mathematician, and they will have risen the same number of feet, their end point each being the same distance from their beginning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mathematicals are the least rich of beings of reason; as opposed to the figures of poetic intelligence, which are the richest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I just did a couple of those "poems": the fact that 40% of voters thought that the obvious computer-generated poems were written by humans says something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How's that? JA Escalante</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What, again, is a mathematical? Is that something that can be prescribed to a mathematical equation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That the Turing test has also been subject to rampant grade inflation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if you ask the computer who wrote the computer poem, they get it right every time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12190" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is a mathematical?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12191" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Makes me think that e e cummings was really a robot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12192" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A mathematical is an ens rationis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12193" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a thing of reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12194" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A thing that exists in matter and motion but is considered as separated from matter and motion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still do not get it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like something you can measure?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are mathematicals the things which are measured by mathematics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, a physical rectangle is a shape in the window; a mathematical rectangle is that shape as considered without its sensible accidents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12199" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, as my surname is Austrian/Bavarian, I will say this from my limited experience...you know Austrians from Germans by the better food and that they are midway between being laid back (Italians) and uptight workaholics (Germans north of Bavaria)....the virtue is in the mean....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and without any of the imperfection that comes from its real existence)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, so a poem is a mathematical of things not measured by math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12202" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a joke about Bavarians: It is said that they posses the efficiency of the Austrians and the culture of the Prussians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But math is measuring the same thing, but just in a different way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Given, however, that BMW is in Bavaria and a huge economic hub, at least the first part of that joke seems questionable. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12205" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find the sure-fire way to annoy a German or an Austrian is to claim that Mozart was either an Austrian or a German</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(at least it works on my wife 95% of the time)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12207" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austria, however, is Germany's Canada.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though unlike Canada, Austria has a glorious history. Far in the past.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JAson, don't dis on the mathematicians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12210" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take the fact that this thread has never seriously discussed music as a sign that we all agree that Mozart was the greatest composer ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bullshit is metagism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#tacdogmas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12213" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, all you guy drank crap at TAC. James Layne and I didn't drink swill as students. We made Margaritas, with 1800 as a bare minimum (Cazadores though was my favorite), and debated Gran Marnier versus Contreau<br />Beer was not commonly drunk outside what the school gave us, but Newcastle and Sierra Nevada were the standby there.<br />We bough nice Bourbons too, everything from Knob Creek (my standby) and Makers Mark (James Layne's) to Bookers<br />I only went to drinking swill as a poor grad student....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12214" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^statement 100% convertible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12215" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So a poem is like a mathematical for a different kind of form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant (by convertible) metagism is bullshit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman, Bavaria was still very Catholic when I was there, including a higher than Ireland Mass attendance rate (but considering Ireland is an apostate country now, not surprising)...I don't see the Prussian culture at all.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, you seem stuck on trying to equate poetry as some sort of different form of mathematics, but I'm not really sure that's so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cazadores and gran marnier</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mathematicians talking poetry is like poets talking math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12222" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">a poem isn't analogous to a mathematical; a poetic figure would be</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, it is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A poem is a poetic figure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12225" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_12226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer Laphroige quarter cask to Lagevilin 16 year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12228" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not trying to make poetry into a different form of math. I am just trying to see how they are similar, or where they intersect in terms of matter and form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12229" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, there was a time when I could afford to compare.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward has the Holy Ghost changed your heart yet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but Scotus has been hardening that hart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ardbeg uigeadail</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and it also helps to be John Nieto's friend as he has been trying every kind of scotch from every distillery in Scotland. Someone's got to do it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^divine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12235" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">After all, Scott - Euclid alone has looked on beauty bare.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12236" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">we tried that the year after graduation. I had a 18 month hangover</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12237" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, I don't think I want to know what hardening a hart means...it sounds cruel at best....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Including scotch made after the blend that Shackleton personally crafted for his expedition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12239" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edna alone has looked on Euclid bare</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe it has to do with tanning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A poetic figure is analgogous to a mathematical. Some poems are poetic figures in their entirety, an entire metaphor, is all I meant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12242" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I used to have perfect spelling. Then I went to graduate school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12243" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">too many analytic philosophers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catholic schools, as a rule, are overrun by continental philosophers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12245" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">anal-ytic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12246" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greek and German destroyed my spelling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12247" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he said anal^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hee hee.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12249" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am sorry. I taught high school for four years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12250" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">unlike many senior girls, I've actually read Freud</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12251" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ralph McInerny makes a joke in his autobiography that Catholic philosophers decided to move from the Thomist ghetto to the phenomenologist ghetto.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and thus grasp the origins of analytic "phil"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12253" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, he puts it more wittily than I do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math is for people who do have not enough faith; poetry is for those who have too much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetry, btw, as an art is obviously superior to mathematics, as it encompasses a greater universality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12257" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math is for people who love beauty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott is actually right about the modern academy at least</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetry is for people who love to talk about beauty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And philosophy is for those whose faith is just right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Think of Dawkins on the one hand, and Derrida on the other, and you will see the truth of what Scott said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poets seek to explain nature in supernatural terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poets are those who are able to give beauty its life's breath so that it may enter into the hearts of men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophers realize that one ought to use the correct level of discourse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mathematicians seek to explain God with equations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only poor poets would explain nature in supernatural terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rather, a poet ought to explain the supernatural through natural terms ,beautifully.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or equations</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think if a poet could explain Creation has God sees it, he would be very rich.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I apologize for the dogmatic character of my poetic-self.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not see anything natural about a metaphor. Metaphor turns nature on its head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Think of Dawkins on the one hand, and Derrida on the other, and you will see the truth of what Scott said"-JA Escalante Neither of those guys is a mathematician or a poet--at least, that isn't what they are known for.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Daniel, I think you are on to it; if metaphor is natural.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz: Math is a science. Poetry is a hunch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12275" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"His colleague Alfréd Rényi said, "a mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems",[14] and Erdős drank copious quantities. (This quotation is often attributed incorrectly to Erdős,[15] but Erdős himself ascribed it to Rényi.[16]) After 1971 he also took amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking the drug for a month.[17] Erdős won the bet, but complained that during his abstinence, mathematics had been set back by a month: "Before, when I looked at a piece of blank paper my mind was filled with ideas. Now all I see is a blank piece of paper." After he won the bet, he promptly resumed his amphetamine use."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poincare is a mathematician.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sounds poetical to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12278" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But this is a stupid argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12279" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metaphors are beautiful, in their imitation of the divine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12280" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"He had his own idiosyncratic vocabulary: Although an agnostic atheist,[18][19] he spoke of "The Book", a visualization of a book in which God had written down the best and most elegant proofs for mathematical theorems.[20] Lecturing in 1985 he said, "You don't have to believe in God, but you should believe in The Book." He himself doubted the existence of God, whom he called the "Supreme Fascist" (SF).[21][22] He accused SF of hiding his socks and Hungarian passports, and of keeping the most elegant mathematical proofs to himself. When he saw a particularly beautiful mathematical proof he would exclaim, "This one's from The Book!". This later inspired a book entitled Proofs from THE BOOK."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's it, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12282" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T14:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">do you have an equation that proves that Joel? or is it just a hunch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But slightly crazy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">poetry is "infima doctrina" but it is still doctrina.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If poetry is a hunch, then the poet is very bold when guessing that Beatrice is a rose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only a fool ignores the poets.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12287" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Infima doctrina" < math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12288" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only the poets ignore a fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12289" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or perhaps you meant "foal"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">13,000 ahead ,mates- heave ho</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12291" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and then 13,692</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12292" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that expression "infima doctrina" makes me want to punch people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The poet finds the wisdom in the fool; and the folly in the wise man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12294" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">infima doctrina = a short cut to metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12295" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, yes mathematics is a science, but is all of what we call mathematical a science? I threw in "as art" both as a weasel phrase to avoid objection, and because it seems to me math can also be treated as an art.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12296" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">poetry is more closely allied to the phantasm which is the ore-vein of the concept; math yields little</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12297" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"God may not play dice with the universe, but something strange is going on with the prime numbers."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12298" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Television is something the Russians invented to destroy American education."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Quotations/Erdos.html</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Why are numbers beautiful? It's like asking why is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony beautiful. If you don't see why, someone can't tell you. I know numbers are beautiful. If they aren't beautiful, nothing is."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12302" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everything that is, has beauty. But some things are more beautiful than others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12303" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(220, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And people who have done Euclid should know how beautiful a nice proof is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante "poetry is more closely allied to the phantasm which is the ore-vein of the concept; math yields little" Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12305" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I know beauty, and Euclid is beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And there was that one time I saw a whole proof in Apollonius in the diagram at a single glance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Behold!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel: really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12309" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Euclid, beautiful? I thought him rather homely....now Apollonius was a real catch....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12310" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward: angelic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then Pascal's projective geometry . . . man that's fine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Haggard" data-date="2014-09-03T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Haggard at 2014-09-03T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">12,500 comments? We might get the longest thread record yet!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12313" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T14:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Euclid is beautiful, but is certainly not the Beatrice that is Apollonius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley ala Bhaskara's famous proof of the Pythagorean theorem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Haggard, the thread would have to grow almost 50 times it current size to do that....we shall see!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The sea never changes and its works, for all the talk of men, are wrapped in mystery."<br />--from "Typhoon" by Joseph Conrad</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aye, but the Math does not convey the beauty. It conveys something else; the beauty just comes along with it, like a woman riding a horse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12318" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, the math conveys something that must be true. Not something that must be beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you ever really done math?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Have you ever really done poetry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the proof itself that's beuatiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12323" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, ask Catherine Ryland</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12324" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have done meth, does that count?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just kidding, that was real bad</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua is the danger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The proof is true, not beautiful. Math helps us see that we know it as true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look who's splitting the transcendentals now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is this "infima doctrina" stuff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geometry may have some beauty in it -- some beauty and truth -- but not math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're going all Scotus on us now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The little way to metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I think it's from St. Thomas. But I think the intention concerns its logical structure, not its utility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The content of math is literal. The content of poetry is imaginary. The content of rhetoric is contingent. The form of all three is the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Their form being the same, they can all lead to beauty, truth and goodness in unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12336" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math is the propaedeutic to philosophy. It is also the science best proportioned to our intellects. But poetry is great as well, though I don't understand claims that poeticals are "the richest beings of reason."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you see math as beautiful, Ed, because you are beautiful inside, not because of the math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Scott, you're now saying that poetry isn't beautiful but leads to beauty too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12339" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"propaedeutic"... please watch your language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetry may be the highest art, and thus be greater than Math insofar as Math is certainly not the highest science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, what do you say I was saying before?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12342" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T14:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Incommensurables, guys.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12343" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Aye, but the Math does not convey the beauty. It conveys something else; the beauty just comes along with it, like a woman riding a horse."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12344" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T14:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the praise of poetry at the expense of math is usually a compensation technique.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-03T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-03T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">tell it to Vico, you Cartesian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12346" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T14:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, I think you are right. About 10,000 posts ago I post a division of "Logica", among discursive reason I divided it into three, that producing conclusions necessary, that producing probable conclusions and that producing error<br />The 2nd is divided into three...that producing opinion, that producing suspicion and the producing estimation, and that last was ascribed to the Poetics, as it inclines us to one side ofa contradiction through the appeal of beauty. It is the weakest, in that the Topics produces opinions, i.e. the mind is totally declined to one side, and the Rhetoric suspicion, the mind is partially declined, but the Poetics only produces, for lack of a better word, an attraction to one side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I think human imagination (properly informed) can be said to be beautiful, just as the human will (properly informed) can said to be good; just as the human intellect (properly informed) can be said to be true. <br />Math conveys the true; rhetoric the good; poetry the beautiful. <br />Poetry is a tool. The poet informs the form of his art with beauty. The poet is both informed by formal unity in the world, and informs the world with beauty in his poetical observation of the world and things in it. He then informs the poem with this form. In one sense, the poem possess beauty. But it is a beauty to transmit and inform the reader. It is a short cut to metaphysical beauty; in a similar way, a math equation can be the briefest possible description of a geometrical universal.<br />But what do I know? I am really a fool at times, and never wise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's happening here? Josh, are you saying poetry is a kind of discursive reasoning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12349" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz--w/r/t your "weasel distinction," I think that's it is probably right to say that Poetry is much higher considered as an art, and mathematics can also be considered an art as well (e.g. algorithms, engineering, etc.).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One may argue that its utility is the greatest though, in that it appeals to the greatest number of men<br />Poetry in general seems to have sprung from two causes, each of them lying deep in our nature. First, the instinct of imitation is implanted in man from childhood, one difference between him and other animals being that he is the most imitative of living creatures, and through imitation learns his earliest lessons; and no less universal is the pleasure felt in things imitated. We have evidence of this in the facts of experience. Objects which in themselves we view with pain, we delight to contemplate when reproduced with minute fidelity: such as the forms of the most ignoble animals and of dead bodies. The cause of this again is, that to learn gives the liveliest pleasure, not only to philosophers but to men in general; whose capacity, however, of learning is more limited. (1448b1)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh is quoting Aquinas in saying so, in one of his proemiums to logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Mrs. Cohoe. Not syllogistic, but it does lead the mind to new places, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pelican of mercy, Jesus, Lord and God,<br />Cleanse me, wretched sinner, in Thy Precious Blood:<br />Blood where one drop for human-kind outpoured<br />Might from all transgression have the world restored.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12354" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not the point of poetry to produce conclusions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not conclusions of truth, but conclusions of beauty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12356" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the claim is that poetry has a certain relation to logic insofar as it can often lead people to a conclusion through its proper method. But this isn't to say that it's properly a part of logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See STA commentary on the Posterior Analytics: http://dhspriory.org/thomas/PostAnalytica.htm#02<br />FOREWORD OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS - Thomas Aquinas: Posteriora Analytica: English<br />αἵ τε γὰρ μαθηματικαὶ τῶν ἐπιστημῶν διὰ τούτου τοῦ τρόπου παραγίνονται καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἑκάστη τεχνῶν.<br />DHSPRIORY.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is poetry a counterpart of logic, like rhetoric is a counterpart of dialectic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(208, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure it is, not again in the manner of a syllogism, but through and in beauty, yes. Beauty, after all, appeals to the mind in a way the good appeals to the will, it attracts it. Beauty has that ratio of truth blended with the ratio of good. <br />Or are we not supposed to contemplate anything in beauty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12360" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T15:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks Joel HF-<br />At times, however, belief or opinion is not altogether achieved, but suspicion is, because reason does not lean to one side of a contradiction unreservedly, although it is inclined more to one side than to the other. To this the Rhetoric is devoted. At other times a mere fancy inclines one to one side of a contradiction because of some representation, much as a man turns in disgust from certain food if it is described to him in terms of something disgusting. And to this is ordained the Poetics. For the poet’s task is to lead us to something virtuous by some excellent description. And all these pertain to the philosophy of the reason, for it belongs to reason to pass from one thing to another. (from Joel's link)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the conclusion of the poetic method that it informs the soul somehow, in a related by different way than logic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12362" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems pretty reductive to equate contemplating beauty with producing conclusions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12363" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if also it is because poetry can be used to move the mind to a certain conclusion--though that may not be the only (or even the primary) thing poetry does. Beauty is worthwhile for its own sake, after all, and not merely as a sort of 2nd rate rhetoric and 3rd rate syllogism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12364" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not saying it can't aid in producing conclusions. As long as we're not judging poetry relative to other disciplines based on its ability to convince the mind of something, then I'm good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, what Joel said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12366" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T15:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe I am using conclusion more broadly here...I am not thinking of it as the end of a syllogism, but as that to which the mind is led....in a certain sense does not all art attempt to lead the mind in some sense?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12367" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the burden of proof is on anyone who claims that math isn't beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, beauty may refer to the clearest sort of "seeing" of what truly is, when mind and heart are ordered rightly in relation to being via this beholding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, but not for the purpose of producing conclusions. At least, not necessarily, and I think, not usually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12370" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and the only reason you snobs pick Apollonius over Euclid is because we have only the basics of Euclid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12371" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-03T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-03T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian Dragoo has a thesis for what ails yah arguing that math is beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I think that's why poetry (and for a similar reason, rhetoric) is not properly part of logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12373" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone ever heard of an "elegant" proof. No no no no no we only talk about the brute force of the proof bludgeoning us with logic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On a related note, I think a lot of the funky mysticism about beauty happens because people lose sight of the first sense of beauty: namely, a certain consonance between something seen or heard and the sense power that produces pleasure.<br />Sure, that isn't the most noble sense of the term, but the characteristics of that sensible account govern the use of the term.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">take a simple construction, like Euclid II. 11. In order to cut the line in the golden ratio, he first constructs it on the side. Elegant, and makes the beautiful spiral root, in the construction. (and it rears its ugly [I mean beautiful by ugly] head again in inscribing the pentagon)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12376" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Thomas's "What, when seen, pleases".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">From it, in particular, we learn that something is beautiful when it is well proportioned to our powers: both absolutely and taking into account our particular circumstances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Newton's proofs in Book III of the Principia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a simple drawing of Utah is the basis of the golden ratio, the pentagon, and finally the most complex of the platonic solids. Where again is the lack of beauty in understanding?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12380" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the former sense, there is an objective order between beautiful things (which Mozart happens to be at the top of); in the latter, it's more true to say that "beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mozart. Pish-posh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^he's no Schoenberg^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have denied a #tacdogma: this incurs a _latae sententiae_ excommunication.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mozart is only beautiful because of #mathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quoth Mrs. Gustin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought Euclid's proof on the equilateral tringle led to beauty and truth. The perfectness of the form of the triangle is beautiful. Maybe you cannot say this, but maybe you can. I do not know. Maybe the form is not beautiful. Just true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12388" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, but Mrs. Gustin thought Beethoven was the best!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(please help! Does anyone know what a semiduplex rite is ecclesiastically?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12390" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really? Not Bach?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12391" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nerdiest "please help" request ever!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Etymology, nature and synonyms. The word semi-double (semi-duplex) is derived from the Latin; and some writers hold that the word indicates feasts which are of lower rank and solemnity than double feasts. Others hold that it means simply, feasts holding a place between double feasts and simple feasts. Most writers on liturgy hold that on some days a double office—one of the feast and one of the feria—was held, and that in order to shorten this double recitation there was said a composite office, partly of the saint's office and partly of the feria; and they say that from this practice arose the term semi-double, or half-double.<br />Synonyms for the term "semi-duplex," are "non-duplex," "office of nine lessons."<br />1. The antiphons are not doubled in a semi-double office.<br />2. The Sundays of the year, excepting Easter Sunday, Low Sunday, Pentecost and Trinity, are said according to the semi-double rite. In the new Breviaries the Psalms for Matins are only nine in number, instead of the eighteen of the older book.<br />3. The versicles, antiphons, responses, preces and suffrages of saints, which are recited in semi-double offices, are given below under their own titles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bach is the only serious contender for the title.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think he's overly cerebral.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quoted from here: http://www.sanctamissa.org/.../divine-office-quigley-09.html</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know the authority of the source, but it seems to be a relatively straight-forward kinda question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too much #mathgnosis?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, b/c Bach lacked (or didn't make much use of) the Sonata form, whereas it reached its peak w/ Beethoven, and the Sonata form gave the greatest unity and largest scope to a composition (or so saith my memory of Mrs. Gustin).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds sort of familiar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beethoven is overly emotional.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mozart is the golden mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#truth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also suspect she rather liked the masculinity of Beethoven as compared to Mozart. But that's my private view.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bach is too mathy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's so great about Sonatas? I think she was prejudiced against church music.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sonata is actually a church form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(the way a classical minuet was a dance form)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really? what part of the liturgy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12410" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley sed contra, the mean is Nigel Tufnel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I quote: "You know, just simple lines intertwining, you know, very much like — I'm really influenced by Mozart and Bach, and it's sort of in between those, really. It's like a Mach piece, really."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, this is the problem with music criticism (or criticism of the arts in general) at TAC. One is not trained in it (a training which demands many years of service in the temple of beauty), so one just falls back on one's own likes and dislikes, and if one is a tutor (or if there is a group of tutors who have the same tastes), this gets elevated into dogma, but it's not dogma at all. I think Richard Delahide Ferrier will back me up here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not exactly sure.<br />But I had a violin teacher point out to me that the difference between a "partita" and a "sonata" (particularly referring to Bach's partitas and sonatas for unaccompanied violin) was that the former was stylized dance music while the latter was stylized church music.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was Joshua above suggesting that poetry is that art by which women can be brought to a different conclusion? Or did i miss something? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Per wiki there were 2 forms of sonata originally</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha, I was just wiki-ing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In the works of Arcangelo Corelli and his contemporaries, two broad classes of sonata were established, and were first described by Sébastien de Brossard in his Dictionaire de musique (third edition, Amsterdam, ca. 1710): the sonata da chiesa (that is, suitable for use in church), which was the type "rightly known as Sonatas", and the sonata da camera (proper for use at court), which consists of a prelude followed by a succession of dances, all in the same key. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the Church Sonata gives rise to the modern Sonata form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I don't recall why Gustin thought the Sonata form was the so great. She probably had reasons, though, and it sounds like something that would be a truism at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman do you recall Gustin's arguments for why Sonatas are so great?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12421" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey John-- if you really want to start something you should defend that claim you made about Austen and feminism. I no longer respond to anything less than dragon level trolling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12422" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel O'Connell, some of us have been (almost exclusively) listening classical music since before we were born.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T15:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am one of those people, Edward. Well, at least since I was 5. Anyway, the rule should be: No criticism until you've read Goethe's Conversations, Kant's 3rd critique, and at least 200 pages of Ruskin.<br />To be serious for a moment, though: perhaps some develop more slowly than others. For myself, I had certain definite tastes by the time I was 18, but I feel I couldn't really begin to engage in criticism (of music, or painting, or poetry) until I was about 35 or so. But perhaps I was being scrupulous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Criticism is like Hume's maxims: one can know the maxims as a very young person, but it takes decades until one has learned how to apply them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That may be right, for some sense of criticism, but the vice of music criticism is overemphasizing technique.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12426" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Gustin also once hummed Metallica's Enter Sandman.... I think I find the favoring Beethoven over Mozart more surprising though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12427" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T15:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pretty sure TNET broke facebook there for a few minutes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You had same problem?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12429" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T16:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a poem:<br />A cat<br />S. A. T. <br />Inanimate<br />Stock<br />C<br />R<br />A<br />S<br />H<br />The cat cares not. <br />He has his money<br />In silver and gold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12430" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T16:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">yep. too much #gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone did...there is a site that tests "is it down for me or everyone" it said FB was down for everyone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12432" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T16:02:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably the revelation that Gustin hummed Metallica....small rip in the space time fabric there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^another good theory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember Bailey Fator singing Weezer for her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can contemplate beauty without poetry. But I can do neither without imagination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12436" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T16:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah...we were sitting with her and the claim was made that a sign of the depravity of such music was that it was not memorable....so we got Louis Bolin, who had been tortured with Metallica by James Layne to regurgitate it, and Gustin repeated it back just fine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12437" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T16:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was a twofer really</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Saying "A Cat S.A.T...." is a poem, is like saying 1+3+7=25-6...[24] is a mathematical equation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T16:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">James Layne waterboarded Bolin with music? HA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12440" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T16:24:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">IIRC Louis had said something derogatory about rock music, and his example was the Beatles...and we told him that wasn't real rock music, so James had a CD of Metallica and we played it in my room...Louis did not look all that pleased.<br />We subjected him to it again during the summer. He had his own room, next to ours, and was playing some track over and over...I think it was Schubert, don't remember. I wanted to go to bed and I knocked on his door asking him to zip it. He refused. I had 4 speakers and a subwolfer and James had the Metallica. We checked with our neighbors to see if they were fine with a music war....Louis came over saying he didn't mind, but maybe the others would be upset, and I could say, no, they are cool with it...I cam over a little later and he had moved to the other side of his room with his little laptop speakers put close to his ears...walls vibrating from the Metallica.....that was glorious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T16:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poor mathematicians butcher poetry, and faith. The really excellent ones treasure it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T16:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Black Sabbath > Metallica. Discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12443" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nick Ruedig" data-date="2014-09-03T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nick Ruedig at 2014-09-03T16:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is there TO discuss once you've heard War Pigs, Iron man, Black Sabbath, etc?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12444" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T16:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metallica sucks. I do like having "speak like James Hetfield Day-ah at work"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T16:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, it had something to do with overtones.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And some prog rock bands, like YES, should be fined for outrageous lyrics, such as: "Hot color, melting the anger to stone."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mozart is, by far, the best. But it is certainly okay to listen to others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12448" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12449" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I take it you agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12450" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, this is what I'd like to get away from. "X is the best."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12451" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mozart was a mason, therefore defective. He also had a very dirty mind....very dirty<br />Palestrina is the best, thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12452" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">/trolling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Daniel: How can you even say that? One can say that, at a given time in European history, in Western music, Mozart was the most accomplished composer. But imagine trying to compare him to Leonin and Perotin, Wm. Byrd, Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Berg and Aaron Copeland. The sentence does not signify. Or it is twaddle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say instead: "Mozart is my favorite composer."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12455" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Molly Gustin gave me some good tools for objectively evaluating music. That being the case, I admit that there is a range of composers that one might consider "the best." <br />However, I find that the more people listen, the more they will come to agree with me... it is inevitable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a good dialectical argument for why those tools are not objective: look at Greek music at the time of Plato ... Molly's tools would not even know where to begin! The mode of classical western music is not even a mode Plato would admit (IIRC)!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Lendman, having listened to the entirety of Mozart's works, maybe I have to agree. Especially k.231. (or k382c in the revised numbering). Though k382d (in old nubering k.233) may be superior<br />That latter is titled, "Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber"<br />Yeah, Mozart definitely the best at reaching such lofty heights....<br />In all seriousness, he is a bit overrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12458" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T17:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bach > Mozart</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12459" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Try forming sentences more like these (this is truly my opinion now: I believe it): "Die Zauberflöte is the opera that I love best. I can't imagine a better opera." "La traviata is a close second, in my book, followed by Les contes d'Hoffmann."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12461" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will try.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12462" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Le Nozze di Figaro is clearly the greatest opera ever written.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12463" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although I understand why someone might thing Don Giovanni is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How'd I do? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12465" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-03T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-03T17:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now me: Within Mozart's operas, Die Zauberflöte is clearly the greatest of his operas, a comedy, just as Twelfth Night is Shakespeare's best play.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-03T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-03T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's okay Dan. I am with you. But then again, I am also partial to Bowie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm... Clearly my argument was not convincing enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12468" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, don't be a puritan. A little ass licking on occasion is funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Overrated, my ass.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-03T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-03T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><ptui></p>
</li>
<li id="post_12471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can anyone today talk to about poetry and music, who has the same kind of artistic force as Mozart or Beethoven; no, I think culturally the whole thing has fallen apart and needs to be rebuilt and cannot be grafted onto a contemporary form. By rare chance I once asked Gunter Grass, Joseph Brodsky and Seamus Heaney about poetry, and they all sounded vague and confused. Brodsky described his own as soupy, though argued the publishing industry is supply-driven. Grass was clearly a believer, but his books are incredibly profane. On the other hand, if you view old tapes of Tolkien or Chesterton, they are the opposite. They are diffinitive. If you look at heavy metal bands, or contemporary pop, you see depravity and sometimes the diabolical. If there is a poet or musician today of the same cloth as Mozart or Beethoven, or Pope, or Virgil, or Jane Austen. I think they would be very hidden. They would not be riding the wave in Hollywood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have the complete works of both Mozart and Bach...Bach is superior. Operas are another matter, which Bach is not compared in. Mozart has the greater number of Operas in the top ten, but Carmen is better than all of his.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12473" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:21:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman, I am not sure what to say....I didn't know you went for that sort of thing....do you also like Joyce?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12474" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T17:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I totally see everything you did there, Kenz. Brilliant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree that there isn't the talent now that existed in Mozart's day. There are many brilliant modern musicians, to judge them by the same standard is like judging a Mozart piano sonata to a Chopin one. They aren't the same kind of music</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12476" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T17:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like Joyce.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12477" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also like sandwiches. Can I get an amen for sandwiches?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">depends on whether it is made from perfectly normal beasts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Saying there are Mozart's or Chopin's today is artistic relativism. Why can no one recognize today's Chopin or Tolstoy or even Jane Austin or even Flannery O-Connor? Modernism has laid waste to it all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"modernism laid waste to it all" sounds like a cop-out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IMHO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It also sounds bitter and pained.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it has laid waste to it all. This is what The Wasteland was about. Eliot, that seer, saw it coming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the same reasons, TAC cannot restore modern academia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It can only start something anew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">restore is a stupid word. onward and upward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greatest ballet: Giselle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">greatest ballet: West Side Story</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">onward and upward yes, but we cannot bring life back to the wasteland, we must move onward and upward elsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is that a ballet? I thought it was a musical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">greatest sitcom: Happy Days</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, are you suggesting we go where no man has gone before?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, to the future.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Name a better use for the diminished fifth, Joshua?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I thought space Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12497" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">live long and prosper where you are planted</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I thought we were going upward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">prosperity is phototropic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12500" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, no it is not. There may be some jazz-dance in it, but it is closer to a ballet-opera, but even then no. No, ballet is a distinct form. Musicals are something else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12501" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T17:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Musicals are dross</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But is there a better use for the diminished fifth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sounds like Adrw hasn't seen enough of them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks but no thanks. Married to a theater major who thinks the same. Opera all the way</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12505" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(TAC pronounced "tack")<br />when you're a TAC you're a TAC all the way<br />from your first euclid prop to your last dying day......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12506" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, Dante Sonata by Liszt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^wrt the diminished fifth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12508" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I troll.... I hate musicals)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My Fair Lady- best 20th century pop musical film?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">never seen it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your loss!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12512" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T17:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Musicals are opera meets vaudeville.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg<br />My Fair Lady "Why Can't the English Learn to Speak"<br />First meet between Higgins and Doolittle, with English subs<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't believe I just wasted 6 minutes of my life.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T18:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasted? <br />It gets better<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbdVvIbB1KU<br />Just You Wait - Audrey Hepburn 's own voice - My Fair Lady<br />Audrey sang most of this song herself in the released...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12516" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-03T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-03T18:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cant believe MB just said he cant believe he wasted six minutes of his life, on TNET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T18:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">GAH I CAN'T LIGHT MY STUPID GRILL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T18:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">great now I have to put my stupid pork skewers in the stupid oven</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12519" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^but can you make a sandwich out of them?^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12520" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T18:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is my newfeed now, btw. That is why y'all get this status update.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12521" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ooof. psychopathic hallucinating cockney girl with the world's most annoying accent. I think I'll pass, Joshua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">p.s. you owe me 10 minutes of my life back</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I owe you nothing! I merely filled a gap in your cultural knowlege</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cultural!? Hah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12525" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Stouffer" data-date="2014-09-03T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Stouffer at 2014-09-03T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This comment is brief.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now I'm listening to Schoenberg to wash the cockney out of my ears</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Schoenberg!!!! It made my physically ill when I first heard him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does the trick for washing cockney out of the ears....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-pVz2LTakM<br />Schoenberg: Verklärte Nacht, Op.4 - Boulez.<br />Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951): Verklärte Nacht (Transfigured Night / La Nuit transfigurée), Op.4 (1899)...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and *you're* to blame!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12531" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T18:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love how proponents of Bach > Mozart don't even feel the need to put forth an argument . As if the opus speaks for itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Awright geeezzaa! Whatever yew say. Sorted mate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bach is too mathy. Plus if Douglas Hofstadter thought he was the best..... well, that's not a ringing endorsement</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12534" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T18:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lang, it does speak for itself!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you and Hofstadter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12536" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T18:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, Lor' luv a duck! unlike yew I do not 'ave da compulsion ter play videos an' I can stop 'em when I dislike 'em. Know what I mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T18:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">where's the WTF button</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrjmeGKoR1E<br />Napoleon Dynamite - I don't understand a word you just said<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bach is too mathy, whatever, Behtea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fugue is too mathy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I have poor impulse control</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought you were all about the #mathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12543" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">shh, you'll give it away..... (my exoteric doctrine is that Mozart is superior)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12544" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T19:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer this for purging<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne2LzSG8bic<br />Pelot d'Hennebont, Tri Yann<br />Musique traditionnelle bretonne Ma chère maman je vous écris Que nous sommes entrés dans Paris Que je...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why not *clicks link*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">weird...it's like a strange French accented speaker over Gaelic music....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is Celtic music....Bretaigne.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know that, I can read. But most of my Celtic music experience is The Pogues.<br />My daughter is at Irish dance class right now (so is my wife, which is why I'm killing so much time on TNET)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So sometimes I'm forced to listen to the reel ad nauseum so she can practice.... ugh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the French sounds way off</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12551" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T19:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best modern musician: icejjfish<br />http://youtu.be/iq_d8VSM0nw<br />IceJJFish - On The Floor (Official Music Video)<br />BUY NEW ICEJJFISH SHIRT!! AVAILABLE NOW https://...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">holy crap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12553" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T19:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have I mentioned that St. Patrick is one of my favorite English saints?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T19:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahaha I tell that to my inlaws every year (though I leave the possibility open that he could be Roman)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12555" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T19:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I expected no less from you, Adrw Lng</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did somebody say something intelligent about Virgil, about 400 comments ago?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If not, then how bout a Norwegian joke. So, Lena says to Lars c'mon it's our anniversary I want you to take me somewhere expensive so Lars says to Lena hop in I'm taking you to the gas station.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12558" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T19:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">get it? rising fuel prices?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wugWGhItaQA<br />West Side Story - Cool (1961) HD<br />RIFF Boy, boy, crazy boy, Get cool, boy! Got a rocket in your pocket, Keep coolly cool, boy! Don't get hot, 'Cause...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is my Bonnie's dance troupe:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEtlBxLrMOo<br />Kristopher Estes-Brown Choreography Project Premiere '11<br />Kristopher Estes-Brown's Choreography Video from...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">petrol?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best musical:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9_lfjQopU<br />So Long Farewell<br />"So Long Farewell" from the 1965 film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12563" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-03T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-03T20:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am off to work...when I get back in 16 hours I expect 15,000 posts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12564" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-09-03T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-09-03T20:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My vote for favorite musical:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw<br />Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles )<br />Tradition<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12565" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T20:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pink Floyd's the Wall?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-03T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-03T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Worst musical:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9_lfjQopU<br />So Long Farewell<br />"So Long Farewell" from the 1965 film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^NOOOOOOOO^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12568" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T21:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the sound of music was my personal hell in middle school when we had to watch it...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually met one of the von Trapp children at a mall in smalltown ID as a kid. Bizarre where continual fame takes a person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been peaceful for so long, but now I rise in defense of the Von Trapp family singers!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Von Crap....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mathematical truths are good, true and beautiful because they are of an order of being created by God, and a high one at that, so their beauty is higher than the material world; but even as St. Augustine says, "you were within me, and I outside, and I sought you outside and in my ugliness fell upon those lovely things that you have made." So the only thing beautiful in man is the indwelling of the Logos, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and that enables us to be informed by the beauty around us in the material world, their forms, and immaterial forms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose it depends on what you mean by "beautiful"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just cracked code. Thank you.<br />gratitude + (von trapp) x (-von trapp)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Logos is a person. Indwelling of Logos enables us to apprehend beauty, truth and goodness in external signs and formula that are apprehended by entire person, entire soul. Person to person. Requires more than math. Requires math, poetry and persuasion. Total soul: intellect, imagination and will. Total person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-03T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-03T22:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Legos are not a person, Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12577" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-03T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-03T22:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goodnight TNET. I fear your glory days may be over. May the morning prove me wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T23:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Math alone is not beautiful to all men. To some men, math makes other things ugly. Descartes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T23:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC too mathy to resemble medieval liberal arts. TAC too mathy make other things only true, but not good and beautiful. The only-true, without good and beauty, can be ugly and bad.<br />Goodnight ladies, ladies goodnight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Advertising TNET's semi-official forum: http://socraticum.com<br />Socraticum.com<br />SOCRATICUM.COM<br />September 3 at 11:22pm · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley It's easy to sign up: hit "Sign Up" then hit "login with Facebook/Google".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A curious interview with Peregrine on why God put animals in the Bible.<br />http://www.fiatministrynetwork.tv/.../episode-39.../<br />Episode 39 with Jonathan Scott<br />Please join us every Sunday night at www.fiatministrynetwork.tvat 9pm EST LIVE. Joe will talk...<br />FIATMINISTRYNETWORK.TV</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T23:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Boyer have you spent any time with the essay Modern Moral Philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, TNET will wreak its own vengeance upon you if you try to abscond with its devotees.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12585" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-03T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-03T23:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This isn't an attempt to divert people from TNET, but to create a lasting fan club in order to discuss topics in greater depth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good idea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12587" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-03T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-03T23:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is watching you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12588" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T23:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John , when TNET talks about bringing good philosophy to the wider community, this is the best effort I've seen in Ethics in the last 100 years</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12589" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lol. I'll have to check out the Anscombe article.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T23:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you think some of Geach's best contributions to philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12591" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One would be the refutation of Ascriptivism and his reconciling of esse with fregeian logic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12592" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also quite like his work on divine attributes. The best contribution is setting stage for analytic Thomism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also his work on mctaggart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebekah Shapiro" data-date="2014-09-03T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebekah Shapiro at 2014-09-03T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't been following, but I was reflecting this weekend that the impulse to rely heavily on more recent works from the Magisterium, instead of the Scriptures and tomes of the Doctors, is akin to confessionalism, and to a confessionalist impulse seen among former Confessionalist converts to catholic Christianity. Alexander Gorelik</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John so you're in favor of analytic Thomism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am in the main. Oderberg, Feser, especially.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12597" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The flaws mostly come one certain points (eg Davies trying to make Aquinas into frege on esse</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Feser consider himself one? I thought he was blackforest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-03T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-03T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analytic Thomism. Ack!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not that the camps are all equally enclosed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12601" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Claire Keeler" data-date="2014-09-03T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Claire Keeler at 2014-09-03T23:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've got to turn off those individual email notifications every time someone posts on this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12602" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is A-T (river forest/Lavalian mixture) but coming from an analytic background and addressing Analytics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12603" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see other schools of Thomism engaging the Analytics very much on the broader issues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-03T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-03T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You mean metaphysics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-03T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-03T23:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-03T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-03T23:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To go back to the modern poetry topic briefly, this guy is pretty good: http://fourchamberspress.com/farmers-market-02a/4/<br />Four Chambers at the Farmers Market!<br />Four Chambers at the Farmers Market! | independent community literary magazine (Phoenix, AZ)<br />FOURCHAMBERSPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12607" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going back to Daniel O'Connell's complaint briefly.<br />If you grant that beautiful things are things which are consonant with man's knowing powers and that those knowing powers have an ideal state in which they operate at their best, then it is clear that there is a grand unified hierarchy of beautiful things: those things are more beautiful which are more consonant with man's knowing powers when those powers are in their best state.<br />This account also opens a space for relative beauty: i.e. consonance with a man's powers in any state he finds himself. But to deny the former sense because of this would seem to be odd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, although there is a real question about whether the analytics are worth engaging for the sake of their positive contributions to philosophy. Oftentimes it turns out that post-Cartesian philosophy just rehashes sloppily what some medieval philosopher worked out in detail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is interesting Ed. It makes me wonder exactly what is meant by "man's knowing powers," since it seems to me that the beauty of a syllogism is not the same as the beauty of a rose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A particularly amusing example came up in class today: According to Dr. Noone, the Transcendental Thomists' view on the role of God in knowledge (he singled out Lonergan) is basically a sloppy rehash of Henry of Ghent's views of knowledge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12611" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T00:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John I also like Feser</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I think the most basic sense of beauty is sensible beauty and syllogisms, etc. are only beautiful by extending the meaning of the term. (This is Aquinas's view as interpreted by Nieto and others at TAC).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, even admitting that "beauty is said in many ways", comparison doesn't require that one thing be the same kind of thing as another: for example, we say that God is better than I even though there is nothing at all that is common to both of us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^I agree! So what then is meant by "man's knowing powers?" Does it ultimately mean becoming one with Beauty itself? If yes, then what does it mean before then?<br />If that doesn't make sense I'll try to clarify.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12615" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">While this is true, engagement should be for the sake of bringing others to truth and correcting the state of philosophy. If we are going to complain about the state of mainstream philosophy and thought in general, we should try to fix it. Engage as a form of intellectual evangelization or combat. It's not to find the truth but to promote it. And we should acknowledge where contemporary thinkers are right. The resurgence in essentialism is good and must be sustained. Imagine if essentialism replaced Humean neoempiricism in Phil of Science. What a wonderful thing that would be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, while that is right, it's not proposing engagement with post-Cartesian philosophy as an end in itself, but merely as something in the practical sphere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12617" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weapons Grade Thomism (Registered TM of Geoffrey Meadows and John Boyer)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12618" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was thinking on very mundane terms, Isak: man's knowing powers are the five senses (although, in the first sense of "beauty", only sight and hearing apprehend the beautiful), the interior senses (especially imagination) and intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm not sure I understand the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12620" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, you're talking about appropriating analytic stuff as a means to find truth rather than engaging in dispute, if I read you right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a fair point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12623" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Geoffrey Meadows" data-date="2014-09-04T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Geoffrey Meadows at 2014-09-04T00:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Engaging in disputation is the medieval way to find truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm leery of relying too much on analytics as pedagogues because the fruit of analytic philosophy is almost always some kind of skepticism (especially speculative skepticism.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah fair enough. I was thinking of the grander meaning of knowing, in which the knower and the known are unified.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a real risk in what you're envisioning John (think Jacques Maritain) but it's also a duty</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, that would be implied.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12628" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still think it is worth it, even though I still feel like a newcomer to the analytic tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geoffrey, true, but the medievals would first determine which philosophers were worthy disputing partners</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have found them reasonably welcoming to newcomers in my limited experience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just curious about what it means to know the true versus to know the beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant in terms of how much I have read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a.k.a: Not every problem, nor every thesis, should be examined, but only one which might puzzle one of those who need argument, not punishment or perception. For people who are puzzled to know whether one ought to honour the gods and love one's parents or not need punishment, while those who are puzzled to know whether snow is white or not need perception. The subjects should not border too closely upon the sphere of demonstration, nor yet be too far removed from it: for the former cases admit of no doubt, while the latter involve difficulties too great for the art of the trainer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I'm not sure that "knowing the beautiful" is speaking properly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12635" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The affection in the soul that corresponds to beauty is delight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also am tempted to think there is a realist position buried deep in late Wittgenstein, but I can't find my copy of On Certainty which has the passages that make me think this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus St. Thomas definition "Quod visum placet" --- What, being seen, pleases.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12638" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(This is part of what was behind my claim that the proper end of literature is to delight the virtuous man).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12639" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like how Ed is keeping up wih two discussions at once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12640" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*nerd alert*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(192, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you did speak thus: "beautiful things are things which are consonant with man's knowing powers." Did you not mean that to imply that beauty is knowable?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with your comment about delight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12643" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but it's not precisely as knowable that it's beautiful but rather insofar as knowing it delights the knower.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Run that by me again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(major edits)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you see the edits?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but I think I still need clarifying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ttyl</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(73, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Something is not beautiful because one can know it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Er, I mean I need clarification.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So far so good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12652" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But rather because, when one knows it, one delights in the knowledge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So it's not beautiful as "known," it's beautiful as "delighted in."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is also different from the good: that is good which, when known, causes one to pursue it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12655" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, more precisely, as "able to cause delight".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consider the difference between seeing a well cooked steak and a beautiful painting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apprehension of the former causes one to desire to eat the steak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apprehension of the latter causes one to desire to continue looking at the painting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay I think I see what you're saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about the apprehension of one's beautiful wife? Seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(226, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One delights in attaining the _thing_ which is good; one delights in attaining _knowledge_ of something beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12662" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that's a mixed case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12663" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, seems like it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But people often want to show off their wife but wouldn't want to share her with the viewers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(If that makes sense)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Geoffrey Meadows" data-date="2014-09-04T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Geoffrey Meadows at 2014-09-04T00:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems clear that the philosophical topics, like the theological, were not chosen merely for their intellectual acuity but also for their popularity and influence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well sure, but there's still the fact that apprehension of a beautiful woman causes delight both in attaining _her_ and in attaining _knowledge_ of her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also find looking to a source from a different tradition helps clarify the Thomistic accounts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps properly only in one individual, but the point still stands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(229, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then a beautiful woman is both something beautiful and something good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does that mean that knowledge of her is of two kinds at once?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Btw, Geoffrey Meadows, welcome to TENT. Unless you commented before I started.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I think something like that is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most illuminating</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, I think I might say that you're mistaking the subject of the terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(226, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the _knowledge_ isn't good or beautiful but rather the _thing known_ is good or beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The subject of the terms?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12678" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Geoffrey Meadows" data-date="2014-09-04T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Geoffrey Meadows at 2014-09-04T00:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I realized my mistake too late.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12679" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, we say the _wife_ is beautiful because when I see the woman, I delight in the sight of her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We say the _wife_ is good because when I see her, I incline to her as an end of my actions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But still, apprehension of one and the same object would then cause a mix of two desires, based on your steak/painting example?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that's right. one desires one's beautiful wife in two ways: (a) as something to be known and (b) as something to be sought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12683" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For some weird reason that duality bothers me, since I want the knowing to be a unifying thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12684" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or maybe I mean unified thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12685" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think all my position leads to is a twofold effect of the knowledge: an inclination to continue knowing and an inclination into the thing known.<br />I don't think it changes the unity of the knowledge itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we desire the beautiful because it is also good (it is delightful to see). You seem to be confusing desires, Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12687" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, I am a little surprised The Thread is not progressing in quite the same exponential fashion as in its halcyon days. Perhaps that will give me time later to write some things about 1) why The Great Gatsby is a great work 2) why I don't like Jane Austen 3) why we live in a golden age of poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12688" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I was confusing my #gnoses</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[I am not mentioning that author again.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12690" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen just happens to be the greatest novelist who ever wrote in the English language: not only according to my testimony, but according to John Nieto and Glen Coughlin, both well-regarded tutors at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She writes well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T00:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I regard them supremely, but if that is really their position, I think they're wrong. I will formulate a fuller response soon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12693" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, I think Nieto distinguishes novels from "epic novels"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm not sure how that affects his judgment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12695" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T00:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the thing about Jane Austen is the action and interaction that drives the plot is very subtle: almost all of it happens through dialog between characters rather than in exterior actions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T00:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12697" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It makes for a more "boring" novel than, say, My Antonía, but I think it's more indicative of what real action is like: when we act, most of the motivation for the action occurs in discourse, whether internal or external.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well here is an observation: the silences and subtle (or not) actions of Homer's or Virgil's women reveal more. And every word one hangs on. Fewer words, more said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there is a much different action in Homer and Virgil and also a different medium of expression.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The primary way Homer and Virgil present an action is through extended similes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T01:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am disappointed that 13000 has not yet be reached.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Their speeches are loaded. Lavinia's silence speaks volumes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The mystery. The mystery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Homer's similes are amazing. Virgil uses them less.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12705" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />"As, when in tumults rise th' ignoble crowd, <br />Mad are their motions, and their tongues are loud; <br />And stones and brands in rattling volleys fly, <br />And all the rustic arms that fury can supply: <br />If then some grave and pious man appear, <br />They hush their noise, and lend a list'ning ear; <br />He soothes with sober words their angry mood, <br />And quenches their innate desire of blood: <br />So, when the Father of the Flood appears, <br />And o'er the seas his sov'reign trident rears, <br />Their fury falls: he skims the liquid plains, <br />High on his chariot, and, with loosen'd reins, <br />Majestic moves along, and awful peace maintains."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aeneid, I.210ff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Homer the simile challenges us to make comparisons, to weigh differences and likenesses, some that are very strange, both involving ratiotination and intellectus. He is king of simile (and maybe irony to - a point aristotle implies too)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The previous simile is the one I always think of when I think of an Epic Simile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">great simile. But they are fewer in virgil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Homer is better. How many times and ways does he use the lion simile (of Penelope too - striking)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so subtle and seemingly unthought. But not so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now to the Neptune simile, compare Aeneas' speech to calm his men after storm. Does he succeed? Is he calmed by his own words? Are his words fitting?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It looks like it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is he trying to accomplish and then what does he do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">spem vultu simulat, premit altum corde dolorem. I mismembered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He seems to be attempting to calm his crew: he doesn't calm himself but seems to calm the crew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kinda speaks to the common position of a leader.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He feigned hope with his face, pressed deep in his heart grief. . . . . But their are untruths in his speach. They had suffered no loss (except by famine). Are his words convincing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">His men seem convinced.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T01:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The jolly crew, unmindful of the past, <br />The quarry share, their plenteous dinner haste. <br />Some strip the skin; some portion out the spoil; <br />The limbs, yet trembling, in the caldrons boil; <br />Some on the fire the reeking entrails broil. <br />Stretch'd on the grassy turf, at ease they dine, <br />Restore their strength with meat, and cheer their souls with wine."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">o passi graviora is not true. What does he list? What is the hope? . . . . They avoided scylla and the cyclops.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T01:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not one word of it is quite true. They will not have peace nor refound Troy. . . . but you are right that they are calmed not he "sick with vast anxieties"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are right Edward. They were calmed by a poor speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T02:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it's necessarily a poor speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12726" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T02:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A speech can be well constructed and persuasive, even if it employs lies and/or untruths.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12727" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T02:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my favorite line is " perhaps one day it will delight to remember these things"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">they just lost most their comrades!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That and the one ship of allies that is lost gets no funeral. no speech. nada. they are totally forgotten.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not sure what to make of it but they dont seem much concerned about there lost comrades except aeneas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But then his worry and grief are not named and could be the lost hope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12732" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, need to turn in. Interesting conversing about this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12733" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T07:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T07:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pShuE09VsjI<br />Cricket sound 8 hours of nature forest sounds full night relax meditation zen music<br />This song was created to assist in the practice of...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T07:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T07:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you guys stopped before 13000? I'm disappointed...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12735" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T08:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T08:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Similogism!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12736" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T08:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T08:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina I think that school has just started, so people are suddenly too gainfully occupied to tend to TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T08:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me it is tough to persuade around a lie. Aristotle and Longinus seem to underscore this. This restores faith in TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12738" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T09:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">gainfully occupied? what's that...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T09:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say lie. I think he goofs up. But his biggest gaffe is to say that they will remember this with delight. That could be said of scylla and the cyclops but can you imagine saying, "remember that time we lost all our friends in hurricane katrina. Good times, man. Those were the days." But he seems to say kinda dumb things like this all the time. Not like others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12740" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T09:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Aeneid brings up an interesting point re: music today. some have lamented the lack of good poetry, or music or whatever in today's culture. But look back at Roman culture circa Virgil. Can we say that there were some things that would make people today blush? Probably. Don't make we start translating Catullus....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T09:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Omnino nihil novi sub sole.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catullus is like who? Cyrus Miley?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not a fan of much of Catullus. But Passer is hard not to laugh at. . . . . and he has no match in english. It was high brow perversion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T09:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not a huge fan of Catullus either, but some of the filthiest Latin poetry around (and don't get me started on Petronius)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T09:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T09:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">totally agree. LIS no one comes close in English. Did you know Juliet references Passer? (There is a running joke that classicists are all really pervs. Its true of many and they are sooo weird. I did not want to be one of them. . . . such strange folks. I dont get it.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T09:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Passer as in the Catulus poem? And where is this reference? I'd never heard that before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T10:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cf. 2.2. 176 et passim. Especially 183 . . . But R& J is nothing but bawdy humor and a slam against romances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T10:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good play if you pass over the innuendo. Otherwise HS students have an arsenal of pervert jokes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T10:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">actually 2.2.183 is a great line. She does cherish him too much (ie in the wrong way). But the parents are most to blame imo and the friar too. Romeo is such a self pitying sap, a puddle of tears.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too funny. When i arrived at one school they had the Oxford editions and whited out every explained innuendo (in every book ). I just used the Dover instead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12751" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I blame the parents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12752" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, teenagers are dirty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12753" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Romeo and Juliet loved eachother the way teenagers should.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12754" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just in beautiful iambic pentameter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12755" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T10:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, love each other to mutual suicide? you must have had a rough teenagerhood</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">eh, kids are stupid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not sure about that Daniel: there love was not right but the parents are most to blame.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12758" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Modern Bowdlers with a case of white-out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12759" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kids are even stupider when their parents are stupid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12760" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^that's the moral of the story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12761" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Their love wasn't perfect. But they were young. Young people are imperfect and love imperfectly. That is not blameable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12762" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T10:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose, but middle aged people are imperfect and love as such too. I blame Tybalt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12763" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would not be believable (or interesting) at all if Rome and Juliet loved each other with prudence and temperance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12764" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am 30 and perfect. So there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's called a tragedy for a reason, per Daniel's comments</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12766" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought 33 was the perfect age.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Shut up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oops.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12769" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I am not perfect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12770" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Meanwhile, those damn Darwinist bastards have planted yet another "fossil" to fool the weak minded: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../dreadnoughtous-schrani...<br />Meet Dreadnoughtus, An 'Astoundingly Huge' New Dinosaur<br />Say hello to Dreadnoughtus schrani, a newly discovered...<br />HUFFINGTONPOST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T10:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course not Adrw. And we mostly agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12772" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There you go again trying to control the TNET. Only TNET knows when to shut people up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I apologize.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">65 tons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Huge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heavier than a 737.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of censorship, Viltis used to take a razor blade to the Art books in the library, or so I was told.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No!?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12779" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">AHHHHHH, Joel are you SERIOUS???? I'm not sure I believe that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12780" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say, "it ain't so!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds like a legend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's got to be a legend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12783" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Viltis is not the kind to blush at a penis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or any other kind of anatomy for that matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not mean to be sexist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12786" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T10:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Literally burst out laughing at work, Daniel Lendman!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, Catherine Ryland.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12788" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^13000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good work..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12791" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do what i can.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what if God created the dinosaurs and made them look old?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I'm not really serious.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12794" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T10:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I could be mistaken (and hope I am), but it would be a double waste because the foolish (or indifferent to danger?) couples who went into the library's "art room" weren't going in there to look at pictures of fine art, dirty or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That would be stupid. But God is not stupid. Therefore, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12796" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Therefore Viltis did not cut out the pictures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12797" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T10:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I learned to knock pretty early on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Two arguments at once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12799" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I intentionally did not knock. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12800" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just think she had more respect for beautiful things than that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said above^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T10:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hoping to get a glimpse, were we?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12803" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Voyeur.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Lonely times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12805" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T10:55:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I worked for Viltis for four years, I never saw her cut anything (had some of her Kahlua though)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12806" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T10:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That makes me feel better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Meanwhile, whose on board for Denver going to the Super Bowl again?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one, huh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12809" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^What's the Super Bowl?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><sigh></p>
</li>
<li id="post_12811" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T10:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I imagine some of us will be sitting here getting TNET past 500k. No time for these Super Bowls you speak of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12812" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T11:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to be recursive: https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever/photos/exp.1538672269682439.unitary/1538672029682463/?type=1&theater</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">getting to the superbowl? possibly. winning it? not likely<br />http://gfycat.com/RigidGrizzledAyeaye<br />funny - Jiffier gifs through HTML5 Video Conversion.<br />Jiffier gifs. share your gifs with the world on the fastest gif...<br />GFYCAT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It depends on whom they are up against, yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12815" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T11:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://buttersafe.com/comics/2011-02-08-superbowl.jpg<br />BUTTERSAFE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw, I marvel at how you are unable to appreciate the glory that is the Professional Football.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12817" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T11:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eXSIsNS4tw<br />O'doyle Rules! (Car Scene) - Billy Madison (1995)<br />My favorite scene from the 1995 film starring Adam...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12818" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep. Just like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Baseball > football</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ugh, I don't know if I can handle another Super Bowl</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12821" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.footballz.org/.../01/SuperbOwl.0000000000.jpg<br />FOOTBALLZ.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My son was literally in tears until we sent him to bed at the half</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was epically disappointing last year, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So was I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*epic.* The whole town was in mourning the next day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still don't know what the hell happened. But I don't really get football</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was like we were cursed or something. Didn't Matthew J. Peterson advance a thesis about God smiting the Broncos for forsaking his prophet, Tebow?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12829" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They should have kept Tebow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He could have learned a lot from Manning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As it is, Denver is looking even better this year, despite losing Welker for the first four games.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not going to be as fun rooting for them here where I can't see the stadium lights from my house</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">seahawks on meth high smacked down on some old men. Not pretty. Didnt watch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Denver choked. Big time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12835" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-04T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-04T11:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sadly I only have time for one comment right now, but I wanted to ask whether anyone has brought up MacIntyre's interpretation of Jane Austen, and ask what people think of it. Bye</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOOO COME BACK!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is MacIntyre's interpretation? Was that in After Virtue? sounds a bit familiar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12838" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks. Pater. Haven't read that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12839" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T11:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET cannot be wielded by men; only Hobbits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12840" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T11:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cast the TNET into the fiery chasm from whence it came!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12841" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T11:36:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is that if we destroy the TNET, Matthew will be destroyed with it and the beauty of TAC will fade and the tutors will return to the sea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12842" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^wins^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12843" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Except this analogy is confusing me, because the only candidate I can think of for uniting and ruling the land after TNET is destroyed and the tutors sail to the undying lands is Scott, and that *can't* be right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T11:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On a hasty review. It is interesting and i forgot how good Austen is. But i think Austen / aristotle get pride / magnanimity wrong. True magnanimity accompanies true humility. "Humility of Heart" by Cajetan describes it best. Austen falls back into the Aristotelian error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12845" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems like Emma contradicts this notion.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I mean is that she is humbled, and it is in this that she learns to be truly magnanimous. No??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the end I dont think Liz and Darcy overcome pride and prejudice, only possible by grace or at least veerry difficult without.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12848" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T11:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Macintyre thinks Austen and Ben Franklin were the preeminent ethical thinkers of their era.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^There is something very true about this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12850" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ethical or moral I don't remember which. Let me go grab my copy...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have to read Cajetan. I had no clue what it was before. Being humbled doesnt necessarily lead to humility. I would have to reread Emma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12852" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T11:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, that can't be right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12853" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T11:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lizzy and Darcy may not overcome pride and prejudice completely, but they certainly make some pretty significant strides in that direction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T11:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HUMILITY OF HEART is amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12855" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T11:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Jane Austen is in a crucial way [one of the last great representatives] of the classical tradition of the virtues"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He talks about her in two different sections... you might be able to Google book it but it is too long to quote here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where does MacIntyre write on this? I just read a googled review. [posted at same time as above.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">anyway, need to go to work...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12859" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T11:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">239-243 After Virtue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12860" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T11:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks. Nina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T11:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">also 181-187</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12862" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T12:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">After Virtue has been "at the top" of my reading list since I graduated from TAC. One time I did read the first 20 pages though. * sigh *</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12863" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T12:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen again (insert dog-vomit comment here)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12864" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T12:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">one point he makes that's important is that Austen may make fun of a lot of people, but only when she views them as not fulfilling their real social roles, not because they have a particular social role.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12865" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">more than I, Joel. [But Ben Franklin! ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, you. (directed at...everyone)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12867" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T13:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">“Jane Austen Meets Sophocles” -- a play in one brief scene: Elizabeth Bennett is seated in English garden, holding a cup of tea. She sips tea, places the cup on a small stand, next to fine-china teapot. Enter Oedipus the King. Sitting next to Elizabeth, he upends the tea stand awkwardly. The tea set smashes on the ground. Crestfallen, Oedipus stands, gouges eyes out. Elizabeth feints [or faints]. The end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok, really going to work now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Old Ben and FDR are curse words in some households ya know. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone else read "Humility of Heart"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12871" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T12:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I think I'm with you on Franklin. And you've suddenly come around on Austen, so...this is a day of wonders, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i never said she wasnt good . . . . I just dont seem to agree with her fundamentally and we may be getting at it. It is a good discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12873" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T12:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">what was Elizabeth feinting? feinting a left hook for the tea set? I don't get the play</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-09-04T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-09-04T12:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, let's see, we're now talking about MacIntyre on Ben Franklin and Jane Austen. Right. Bored now. If you'll excuse me, I'll return to Homer, Sophocles, and Seferis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12875" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen = much ado about nothing . . . . broken tea pots. What would she do in the face of real tragedy, MB?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12876" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T12:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">stop feinting and hit somebody</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12877" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T12:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no issue w/ someone saying "Austen isn't my cup of tea" or "Austen is good and all, but I have serious disagreements over X." After all, I think Tolstoy may be the best novelist ever, and I disagree with just about every conclusion the man ever came to in his life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12878" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T12:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">who would win in a boxing match between Portia and Elizabeth Bennett?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12879" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T12:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A great deal of the contumely heaped on Austen here however had fairly clear ulterior motivations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12880" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T12:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pace Daniel O'Connor: Cervantes was clearly the greatest novelist and Don Quixote the greatest novel. He could totally take Elizabeth Bennett.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-04T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-04T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Laywyer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12882" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T12:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia--Elizabeth was clearly playing cards. Some critics contend that she used the breaking teapot as a distraction not merely to feint but to cheat as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, my only point from the start was the over praise of Austen. And keep in mind that to me the substance always takes place over art. That is just the way i am. Not everyone is like me. Does that make sense?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12884" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T12:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">so Portia gives her the smack-down? Is Shylock in her corner?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12885" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T12:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shylock would certainly be a better fight trainer than Mr. Darcy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, ulterior motives? I think i have been up front.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12887" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T13:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That makes sense, although separating out the "substance" of a work of art can be difficult, I think. I mean, does the fact that War and Peace supposedly illustrates LT's idiotic view of history (that's too harsh, perhaps a "wrongheaded" view of history is better) mean that, as a work of art, it is lesser?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12888" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-04T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-04T13:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Padding stats here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For me it does. But as with Austen I can still admire the art. It loses its lustre AND rereadability for what one can learn and more profoundly admire. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12890" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T14:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger--"ulterior motives" was perhaps a poor choice of words, and not really aimed at you anyway. I just mean that the "she's for girls, let's read Hemingway and drink scotch and quote the Iliad battle scenes" is clearly more about the reader than the work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12891" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T13:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, the substance of Austen is great! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_12892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But to defend the detractors a bit, Austen's world seems small and the men almost effeminate. I think that is a fair complaint. P and P is one of the few with more manly men and even they seem selfish and small minded.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">substance was the wrong word perhaps. I will have to think on it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12894" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T13:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of the few with manly men? I dunno, there are manly men in just about all of them, I'd say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dicken's world was broader and deeper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12896" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T13:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly broader. I'd dispute deeper; in fact, depth is one of the main problems I have with Dickens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe. My memory is terrible. His strength is in detailing individual character.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is more earthy and homely and your not afraid of breaking tea pots.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12899" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-04T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-04T13:34:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just for the record, I'm totally on board for Denver going back and winning the Super Bowl. <br />As for the censoring of the blushing Viltis, I have a great story. A priest I knew a long time ago told me he was in Rome and hanging in the Vatican archives with a friend who worked there. They began discussing iconoclasm, censorship, and the differing take on nudity from age to age. He asked my friend if he'd like to see something interesting and led him down a couple levels below to what seemed a crowded storage level. He then produced an ornately carved box, with crush velvet purple lining. A series of custom padded spaces had been carved into the case and each one held a marble penis. The Great Penises of Western Civilization. I guess the story was that at a point the ideological tide turned and they were ordered to chisel them off, but the curators saved them in case the tide reversed and they could be reattached.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12900" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-04T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-04T13:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That story should be good for another few hundred on the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pics? What would Austen say?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12902" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-04T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-04T13:40:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no pics and don't really want to plug "Great Penises of Western Civilization" into a Google image search.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T13:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just kidding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pics or it didn't happen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No Joel HF, "ulterior motives" was perfectly correct</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12906" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T14:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">At this pace we will surpass the Dow in another 10 days or so, correct?<br />#TNET20000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12907" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrew just regenerated TNET in one move</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dickens?? Seriously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12909" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That story was the best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12910" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best laptop for around $500?<br />To be used heavily but for light purposes = writing, multi-multi-tab and multi-browser interweb researching, PDF hoarding, and occasionally playing video to TVs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12911" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T14:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Manly Austen characters: Col. Brandon, Mr. Darcy, Cpt. Wentworth, Mr. Knightly. That’s the male lead in four of her six main novels. I think the idea that there are no manly characters in Austen is ridiculous. These guys are, to paint rather broadly, take-charge, stubborn men, who don’t like talking about their feelings—this last point fairly drives the plot in a few of the novels. Some of them have extensive military experience, and the ones that don’t still own lots of land and like to hunt. Powerful rich men with guns and cigars, the lot of them. And so I’d argue that these guys are the stereotypical “strong and silent” manly type. <br />But I’m not sure why this matters at all, because far more importantly, they are fully realized, three dimensional characters that reflect the reality of Austen’s day. Yes, they wore tight pants, cravats, and had UC English accents. No, they didn't drink Bud Light, play fantasy football or watch MMA. Yet I'm not so sure the latter is an improvement, where "manliness" is concerned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no i havent read Dickens in very long. But his world is more inhabitable. And fun even with the suffering. [Samantha]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T14:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone seen or written a description of TAC which doesn't reference "catholic", "God", or "love"... I'm updating my CV and I do not want TAC to look like "Thomas Aquinas Bible College"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12914" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By "effeminate" John means "appealing to women"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12915" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T14:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tight pants ARE manly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12916" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T14:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's an interesting distinction: appealing to women or being like a woman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T14:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">because my manly tight pants appeal to women.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12918" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T14:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone else interested in the D. Berquist logic discussion group? Speak now, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12919" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mQeLWCCo<br />Bueller...<br />Classic scene from the much-loved 80's film, Ferris Bueller's Day Off.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12920" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T14:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.theonion.com/.../guy-in-philosophy-class.../<br />Guy In Philosophy Class Needs To Shut The Fuck Up<br />HANOVER, NH—Darrin Floen is unfamiliar with John...<br />THEONION.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take back effeminate. And there are several real men. That is not it but I think I am figuring it out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-04T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-04T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's O'Connell and not O'Connor Daniel. Get it right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I promise you, they are very different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12924" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re: appealing to women vs. being like a woman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12925" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T14:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You talking to me Giglio. Cause we can take this outside. You want?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12926" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can I ask TNET's advice about accepting Scott's friend request? I am torn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T14:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff Neill: <br />Great Books program, no electives, no textbooks, all original works (including math and science), all seminar style classes. Degree equivalent to a double major in Philosophy and Theology with a minor in Math and Natural Science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's on my CV</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">awesome. Thanks Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Far better than: A Liberating Education<br />Thomas Aquinas College believes that to learn is to discover and grow in the truth about reality. It is the truth, and nothing less, that sets men free. And because truth is both natural and supernatural, the College offers an academic program that aims at both natural and divine wisdom.<br />This curriculum presents the arts and sciences of liberal education as a comprehensive whole. There are no majors, no minors, no electives, and no specializations. The four-year interdisciplinary course of study makes use of the original writings of the great philosophers, historians, mathematicians, poets, scientists, and theologians of the West. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Euclid, Aristotle, St. Augustine, Shakespeare, Einstein, and especially St. Thomas Aquinas are among the authors read.<br />There are no textbooks. There are also no lectures in the classroom. The curriculum is a sustained conversation in the form of tutorials, seminars, and laboratories guided by tutors who assist students in the work of reading, analyzing, and evaluating these great books. Students develop the lost tools of inquiry, argument, and translation — in critically reading and analyzing texts, in mathematical demonstration, and in laboratory investigation.<br />Equipped with these tools, the graduates are fortified to undertake any area of study, professional training, or vocation. Grounded in the arts of thinking and with a broad, integrated vision of the whole of life and learning, every subject becomes an open door. Even more important, alumni are prepared to live well the life of the free citizen and of the Christian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12931" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T14:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that was a drive by TNET post. Wasn't actually reading the thread. My apologies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12932" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Post graduation, who academically or professional would take this statement seriously? (outside of entering religious life in the Dominicans or Norbertines)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff Neill: You could use the middle two paragraphs, or a variation/shortening of them, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wouldn't use the first or last graph though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12935" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh the one hand, I respect the dragon-level trolling to which TNET is a testament. On the other hand, do I want that level of trolling in my usual facebook? Tough choice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly... that was a direct cut-paste from the TAC website: http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating-education<br />A Liberating Education | Thomas Aquinas College<br />Thomas Aquinas College believes that to learn is to...<br />THOMASAQUINAS.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12937" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T14:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">In order for the college to be taken seriously, it needs to advertise to more than just Catholic parents looking for a safe Catholic place for their Catholic children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12938" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T14:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For realz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12939" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Dylan Naegele" data-date="2014-09-04T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dylan Naegele at 2014-09-04T15:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That seems to be what it wants to be. I went because I thought that it would be like St. John's but with a nicer campus and a lower price tag, but it tries very hard to be a Catholic bubble instead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The whole olde "it is not Magisterium enough" line was a joke, since the school does not graduate you as a Canon Lawyer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12941" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You should be good to go, Jeff Neill, just don't mention... (gasp) Dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, as a former teacher of many TAC students and alumni, I regret to inform you that for many, "Orthodox Baby Sitting Service" is a feature, not a bug.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12943" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The first question you're always gonna get during any interview is this:<br />"I can see from your resume here that you've studied a lot of math... but what about poetry, have you done any of that?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is wrong with bubbles? (Do you mean kids there to be safe and not to learn?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you teach, Aaron?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Dylan Naegele" data-date="2014-09-04T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dylan Naegele at 2014-09-04T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bubbles discourage learning. The oppressive rules prevent personal growth, as well as fresh thoughts and applicants who think outside of the box.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12947" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T15:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like how there's a story about severed statue penises in the middle of the comments about Dickens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">guess i cant speak to that. The HS and MS liberal arts schools i have taught at didnt have that problem . . . . save one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12949" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T15:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the bubbles discourage learning as long as the people in the bubble are there because they want to learn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, it depends on the learning in question, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12951" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T15:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, it wouldn't be TNET without penii</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12952" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you graduated from Christendom College, and you're at your first job interview, you're probably gonna get asked what the "instaurare omnio in Christo" written at the top of your resume means. Just a heads up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12953" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes... TAC is the self-filling pitcher... but a self filling pitcher does not serve the purpose of being a pitcher. Unless the intent is to create teachers that only teach Past/present/future TAC students, you need to change the design. However, those that already fit this description or wish to fit this description are not the best (or lack the the ability) to describing any other possible form. http://www.extremetech.com/.../BoylesSelfFlowingFlask-1...<br />EXTREMETECH.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wow, excellent illustration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12955" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">we used to call it a "fishbowl"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The self-filling pitcher is why TAC needs to build a new Office of Evangelization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The purpose of a pitcher is to convey liquid is to make things wet. The other things that can be made wet are many, and there are different ways to do it, some are more efficient (heh heh) than others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The "office" needs to teach efficiency and objects upon which wetness can be applied</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is wetness a quality?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I taught Latin and Math.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thank you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if the world is dry and TAC has all the water, the challenge is to make the world wet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12965" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That pitcher has the faculty of wetness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wetness = gnosis and cannot be dumped on just anyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">wettitude</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12968" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">some refuse to go in the water... Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or do not wish to swim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12970" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or go against the water</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">drowning is possible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12972" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T15:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">aquatiousness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the office is about exploring the available means of wetaphor, wetagism and wethymeme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas Aquaticus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">humiditatem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's the link to the Berquist group again? Joel HF</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquaman is the most useless superfriend: discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-04T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-04T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">agreed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquaman has special sonar powers and communicates with the sea monsters and the beasts of the sea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We share the same Creator as the sea monsters and beasts of the sea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Leviathan is a sea monster.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12982" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T15:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The great Leviathan once roamed the sea,<br />The nemesis of all humanity.<br />That ancient dragon tempts your soul t'enthrall,<br />But rest assured, Our Lord has conquered all.<br />(May those who curse days curse the day when Leviathan is roused. Job 3: 8)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12983" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T15:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#aquagnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-04T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-04T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come on Jeff Neill, we are one the "soberest" colleges in America. Two years running!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-04T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-04T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LOL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just guessing you graduated in 2012, Andrew. LOL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aqualicious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12988" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-04T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-04T16:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The few hundred feet surrounding the campus is not technically the college. Hence...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I rise today in support of Aquaman the movie. The time is now. Do the right thing, Hollywood.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNQTw4HdzxQ<br />Aquaman 1960's Cartoon Series - Introduction<br />Aquaman is a Filmation animated series that premiered...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12990" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T16:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The drunkenness at the prospective tutor dinners alone should disqualify us from any talk of being "sober." Even technically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12991" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T16:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, the drinking "ad hilaritatem"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-04T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-04T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael - that's penisia, I believe. Louis CK said so</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is virtuous, like devotion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12994" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-04T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-04T16:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was there like a mass weed mailing that everyone got in the mail? I didn't know a facebook thread could be psychedelic til just now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12995" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T16:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina, you haven't been paying attention, then. : )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12996" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T16:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">penisia would be a neuter plural form, which seems wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwvB4_Te8A<br />Willy Wonka And The Chocolate Factory<br />We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most parents pay $ to send their kids to college so they can make $. Part of this is peer group, etc. It has many facets.<br />Religious parents often send their kids to college thinking primarily about how they will keep religion within our cultural context, stay on the path, become good people and develop the soul, and ultimately attain eternal blessedness, etc.<br />So the fact that most parents probably send their kids to TAC in order to pay for a peer group or for something like a bubble isn't very surprising. <br />Now, there are lots of other options along the above lines if that is what you are looking for, of course, which begs the question why TAC in particular - and here they make the educational and liberal arts argument +.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_12999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T16:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.libertylawsite.org/.../post-collegium-ergo.../<br />Post Collegium, Ergo Propter Collegium: On the Destruction of Higher Education in...<br />LIBERTYLAWSITE.ORG|BY GREG WEINER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T16:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if there's a graph showing the income levels of Catholic liberal arts graduates. That would be interesting to see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13001" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T16:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The advice I give my girls about college, marriage and money is to look at the Scriptures. What does the Bible say? In the Bible, we see that our Lord does not discriminate between the rich and the poor man. He treats them the same. That said (I tell my girls) you might as well go for the rich man!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13002" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">After I graduated from Christendom college, I masqueraded as a Victorian liberally educated man of leisure (without inheritence) for about 10 years. After that got boring and perilously close to being harmful to my family, I finally got my first real job, and started making a decent salary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13003" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T17:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most male grads of all these schools spend about 10 yrs before getting on track</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things always work out for those with poetic gnosis. If you understand math but not poetry (or vice versa), keep reaching across the aisle. It all comes together, and there's always someone who can help.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T17:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">May TNET be like the golden ladder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13006" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">golden gnostic ladder</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consider the Cricket:<br />The little Cricket sings a song of hope,<br />A song of love, in God's eternal scope.<br />If little Crickets sing of things thereof,<br />Then how much more can we sing of His love?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13008" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T17:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me just put this out there:<br />Higher education is crap. It rips off the parents, the students and the majority of the faculty. It is unnecessary, for the most part, expensive, in the main part, and ridiculous. <br />But..... nobody learns anything in high school any more so in order to avoid being a mouth-breathing cretin....<br />horns of the dilemma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13009" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nature and facebook are the best teachers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13010" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T17:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET - a virtual education. [Truth. I learned more from reading groups and discussion with friends than most my classes with a few notable exceptions.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13011" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">has anyone considered the nexus of metaphysics and quantum physics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JR-virtual meaning-almost?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i crushed the head of a cricket today, it was causing my daughter dismay, i through it in the trash bin fast, I hope cricket season does not last.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I learned almost no Latin or Greek more than what I had before i started college. 24 credits to spin my wheels.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yesterdays Latin: Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">todays greek: adiabatic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">virtual = interweb</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13018" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">did you look up adiabatic JR? some people are working very hard to make sentient machines.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sentient people is good enough for moi.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13020" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T17:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson has now considered the metaphysics of quantum physics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M<br />Kool & The Gang - Celebration<br />Music video by Kool & The Gang performing Celebration. (C) 1980 The Island Def Jam Music Group<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is a real formation. It hurts. You suffer. Christendom was like this too, but in a different way. In a good way too, though. It's hard to get a formation without suffering a bit. My oldest daughter just entered KU. She's studying to be a physical therapist. That's great. And she has had a good formation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-04T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-04T18:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">suffer to get to the celebration. Play it again Kool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13023" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T19:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">People, my book just got purchased by the bookstore at the Basillica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC, which is one of the biggest stores in the country. Please pray for it. It's a break for a poet. It's a catholic devotional in medieval form, with real metaphor and enthymeme, plus master engravings from Buffon's Natural history.<br />http://www.catholicculture.org/comm.../the-city-gates.cfm...<br />The Blessed Book of Beasts<br />There is a long-standing Judeo-Christian tradition of using animals to teach moral and spiritual lessons. Jesus used...<br />CATHOLICCULTURE.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13024" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T18:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.rna.org/news/184377/Beasts-from-the-East.htm<br />“Beasts from the East” - RELIGION | NEWSWRITERS<br />Fairfax, VA (For Immediate Release) -- Eastern Christian...<br />RNA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T18:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...<br />Eastern Christian Publications<br />Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…<br />SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13026" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To follow up on MB and vent more. UD led me to a pit of scepticism that Pieper helped me out of. But I did enjoy friends, beer-brewing and grabbed me a good Irish child bearing woman on the way out of grad school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">latin poetry: culinarium et cubiculum est locus . . . kai ta loipa . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13028" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think latin poetry is easier to rhyme than English.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13029" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Latin poetry wasnt rhymed til medieval times. Old English wasnt rhymed neither. But meter . . . . no real poet does without.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, not only did I leave for a grueling 12 hr overnight shift, I also decided to sleep 5 hrs before returning to TNET, and TNET is only just above 13,000!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-04T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-04T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting to hear that Pieper pulled you out of the pit, John. His books have a certain fetching quality, but I never felt like they really delivered on their promise. Leisure as the Basis of Culture comes to mind. Was there one you found particularly helpful?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">easy catch up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13033" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was it, Jeffrey. Actually, Philosophic Act, the second essay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13034" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyhow, 19 hrs of catching up.<br />No one's aesthetic judgment is perfect, Edward Langley. Consider this, Mr. Nieto, in his back house, with Fr. Charles playing the guitar and they are singing Fleetwood Mac.<br />Or consider that Coughlin took his future wife, for a first date, to a Grateful Dead concert (which is just fine), but now repudiates such music as disordered. Sean Collins was far wiser, and remarked it was not healthy to listen to only classical music. (Though I admit, after Fr. Michael Perea hit me in the head with a book for listening to the Grateful Dead, Coughlinn did concede that the tracks I liked were "tolerable" as folk music....American Beauty ftw!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13035" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dickens was my favorite author...in 3rd grade...seeing he was the only author the library had at my reading level (we were tested and then required to read at or above, and to improve by a certain measure....I scored 13+, i.e. college level, so no room for improvement....) <br />Dickens is the greatest penny novelist. Like Tom Clancy for the latter 20th century. Not one of the great authors, but fun nonetheless</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, that's not the point, though: the fact that our senses of sight and hearing have a nature necessitates that there be a best disposition of those senses and an order among the objects of sense (and, mutatis mutandis, the same holds true for imagination and intellect). Thus, there must be something which is objectively "most beautiful."<br />Judging that is another matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But i think philosophy is different than he says. Or I should say he descibes a part only.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13038" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">God is most beautiful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I suppose you're referring to my claims about Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13040" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everything else is more or les, and in different respects</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's clearly SoCal 80s punk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">extenso nomine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13043" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am merely referring tothe argumentum ad authoritatem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing more, nothing less than what I said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was slightly confusing . . . I had both an argument about the superiority of Austen as a novelist and an argument about the objective order of beautiful things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't realize until after I posted that I wasn't sure which one you were addressing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In anycase, using Nieto and Coughlin as "close the case" authorities is what I was attacking, not in an altogether serious manner (but seriously, Fr. Charles and Nieto, Fleetwood Mac....you cannot forget that)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nieto and Coughlin I don't treat as "close the case" authorities: for that, I bring out Marc and Duane Berquist </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't finished catching up yet! (and again "not in an altogether serious manner")<br />Ben Franklin was no ethicist. Not in his published works, which at best off platitudes and have more in common with self help books than ethics, or in his personal, flagrantly sinful and debauched life</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13050" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, Tebow stunk....really, not a great player there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13051" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T18:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone was filming Nieto & Fr. Charles singing Fleetwood Mac, I fervently hope. Please say someone has the video!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13052" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, speaking of drunken tutors, ad hilaritatem. Just because I am a pedant....Aquinas no where says "usque ad hilaritatem" <br />It was from a German, Prümmer...and he is talking about what is normally a venial sin<br />Imperfect inebriation is, on its own part, only a venial sin. The reason is that such an inebriation is, of itself, a light disorder not destroying the use of reason. Also, with an existing sufficient extrinsic cause, for example, for taking away melancholy, at nuptials and other worldly festivities, imperfect inebriation is, of itself, no sin, unless still if scandal or some grave inconvenience arose hence. Hence to drink even to the point of hilarity {lightheartedness} is certainly not illicit per se, but a cleric, a head of the family and other persons constituted in dignity ought to avoid hilarity of this sort, since grave scandal and other grave inconveniences are able arise easily from hence.<br />Ebrietas imperfecta est ex se solum peccatum veniale. Ratio est, quia talis ebrietas est ex se deordinatio levis non destruens usum rationis. Existente sufficienti causa etiam extrinseca, e. gr. ad melancholiam pellendam, in nuptiis aliisque festivitatibus mundanis, ebrietas imperfecta ex se nullum est peccatum, nisi tamen inde scandalum aliudve grave incommodum oriatur. Hinc bibere usque ad hilaritatem per se quidem non est illicitum, sed clericus, paterfamilias aliaeque personae in dignitate constitutae evitare debent huiusmodi hilaritatem, quoniam facile exinde oriri possunt grave scandalum, aliaque gravia incommoda.<br />Dominicus Prummer, O.P. Manuale Theologiae Moralis: Secundum Principia S. Thomae Aquinatis. Vol II pg. 520</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13053" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, perhaps if I had been the sort to have a cell phone I could have filmed it...but I don't think anyone there had the means to film. And it was just Mr. Nieto, Fr. Charles, Mr. Nieto's mom, his brother and I....at the time I lived with them!<br />And in all seriousness, Edward Langley, I do actually trust Nieto's aesthetic judgment, but we all are wrong about somethings (cough...Austen...cough)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES. Joshua. Such a common misquote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T18:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Couglin & Nieto are not meant to shut down discussion (though Nieto in particular has a fairly strong aesthetic sense, in my opinion), but neither is saying that after reading Austen you went out and recited bits of the Iliad while drinking scotch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13056" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Karen Zedlick once sang the Beatles ("Nowhere Man") to me while playing the guitar on smoker's patio. It was glorious. Stopped traffic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13057" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13058" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neither what? I was attempting to be humorous, not altogether serious, let alone trying to close the argument (I thougt, on the contrary I was throwing fuel on the fire!)...and I did not drink any Scotch...I believe it was bourbon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13059" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure if it was an intimate moment between us or if it was the greatest rejection ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13060" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T18:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh, someone should tell the tutors that. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Either way - I miss Karen. Say hi to her, people, whenever you visit. I don't think it is altogether easy to be from another country and a woman on that faculty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">right up there with when she told you that chewing tobacco was sub-human</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13063" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T18:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a non-Catholic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13064" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When Domiane Forte was chewing in class too but I got in trouble...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13065" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">some of us know (knew) the non-Catholic feeling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13066" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our hates come from our loves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13067" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:55:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">And as to Austen. I'll say this and then stop, although I never had time to start.<br />It is no proof of anything, perhaps, but I used to remark that bachelor male tutors teaching young females seemed to especially love a certain plotline involving a man nearly 20 years the senior of a gal he helps teach/raise hooking up with her in the end...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13069" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">They found it very, very, very beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13070" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">follow in discipleship....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13071" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not creepy at all. Oh no - it was a different time then. But still cool, when you think about it. Totally understandable. And very, very beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwah!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13073" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T18:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">beautiful like Lolita?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Joshua, what do you think of Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13075" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Older, married male tutors with many children generally seemed to have a more ... balanced take.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13076" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T18:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But obviously they are incredibly written works that do spring from what in some ways was a very civilized culture, yadda yadda yadda. <br />But demographics of fanboy clubs often reveal much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a thesis finally. But to compose it would take time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13078" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T19:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there had been single tutors like knightly some of us would have been into it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Laura Berquist is a case in point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13080" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But in general, no. Not a lot of insanely wealthy but perfectly moral dudes like Mr. Knightly becoming tutors these days. Or ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13081" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">See this video, or at least the very end where he does a version for women:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKWmFWRVLlU<br />Hot Crazy Matrix - A Man's Guide to Women<br />Join us on FaceBook! https://www.facebook.com/HotCra...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T19:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Think I finally stopped laughing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13083" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:20:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is my serious view of Austen (which I posted a while back)<br />1. As far as her technical skill, she is great.<br />2. The setting and, for lack of a better term, atmosphere of the works, do not appeal to me.<br />3. I think I may appreciate her more, if I was more familiar with the historical backdrop of her writings, particularly the sentimentalist works that preceded her and she in some measure was a correction too.<br />4. I have not read her often enough or recently enough to give an informed opinion over most of the intricacies. Nor do I have the time or desire to do so at this point of time.<br />5. While characterizing her as a high brow chick-lit is unfair, I was introduced to Austen via a very feminist reading. While at the time I saw that as somewhat forced, it still colors the reading of Austen for me.<br />6. Hence the, somewhat jestful act, along with several other students, of "re-man-ifying" ourselves after the seminar. This was as much a jest against the somewhat overhyping of her by some fellow female students, as a joke on ourselves (men of course are only moved by glory, violence, war etc)<br />7. I say overhype, not overrated. What I mean is that, while it probably isn't fair to Austen, there were some who were quick to exalt her before even considering her work as such precisely because she was the "great female author" This overhyping is seen in the wave of Austen-fandom that happened a few years ago. It didn't actually take her seriously for her work, and if anything skewed the perception of Austen unfairly, toward the chick0lit category<br />8. There is also this, in my experience the two type of Austen fans were either those turning her into a chick-lit or elitists, still with a touch of feminism, who opposed her to the more martial classics. I am allowed to have some fun at their expense! And it did not dispose me to liking Austen<br />Perhaps my opinion would change if I read her again, or got that historical backdrop. Perhaps it would have been different if I had first read her without any lenses coloring her against my tastes. But this is where I stand hic et nunc.<br />Now I shall resume my minor attempts at trolling...someone needs to fuel TNET back to exponential growth!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13084" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">James Yeager?! That guy is batshit crazy...and I say that as a gun nut</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T19:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh, you might be a gun nut, but Yeager is just a nut.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think whoever made that video is probably a lunatic. But it went viral because it bears some cartoonish truths within it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13087" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T19:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus it's funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, that video was super obnoxious. I made it through a minute before blah..... there's enough misogyny in the world, it doesn't need a TNET reference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even feminist blogs were linking it. It's made its way through pop internet culture. And let's not pretend it doesn't have some relation to reality in a shallow way, especially in this culture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I agree, but on principle as soon as I see Yeager, I have to insult him....for other videos of his (such as threatening to shoot people if Obama does X or Y)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I bet those who made it are misogynist loons, but it still hits the funny bone for a reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nah had to give up. It perpetrates the stereotype that juvenile guys like: hot=crazy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13093" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, I couldn't make it through a minute. I don't hate women enough for that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13094" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T19:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I watched one minute and now i feel personally betrayed by you, Matthew J. Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't even know that about the "authors" but I could sense these people were crazy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My thesis is that there is a grave spiritual vacuum in that day. It led then to Dido like failings and eventually some contemporary rot. But Austen portrays it magnificently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">seriously, when are we going to put to rest the junior high ideal that crazy=freaky</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you don't think extreme beauty comes with baggage you should come to LA some time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">living in LA comes with baggage, you should come to Chitown some time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and I'll fly to LA if you'll put me up for a long weekend)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or read the ancient Greeks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">intellect comes with baggage<br />moral virtue comes with baggage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The hot crazy matrix is usually presented in a more linear way, where crazy and hotness are inversely proportionate<br />.<br />In reality, as we all know, the true matrix is hot, sane and smart...pick two. But we all know TAC girls are usually a good mix of all three (though some of them not so much in the middle, but that is from a malady affecting men too...and I have only seen it at TAC)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13104" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, have I mentioned that you are one of my favorite facebook folks?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yes, people: women do tend to overlook looks in favor of wealth and stability and men do tend to overlook wealth and stability for looks.<br />That's just the sick old world we live in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's not perpetuate it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I'm not sure what you were getting at directly above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13108" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-04T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-04T19:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rosary call</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T20:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like the comedian says about being single or married, male or female: there are two states in life - lonely or annoyed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13110" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel so bad for TAC women. The men get a much better deal. The girls don't realize until it's too late. The fishbowl effect helps us more than them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus is the world --- No, .... thus have we made the world...best line from the Mission</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Mr. Kenz on most of his points above, although I did not experience the Austin hype until leaving. I felt no need to remasculate myself in seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I missed some of the background, but I had several teacher crushes, at least one at TAC and at least one female...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13114" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T19:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I fell madly and platonically in love with Mr. Nieto during Senior Philosophy, but really, who didn't? (Don't answer that...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Joel HF Oh, there were plenty of attractive and smart and sane ladies at TAC. There were also a few insane ones, in a way only TAC can house insanity. This insanity I also observed in some of the males. Interestingly all homeschooled, all from more insular like environments. In my experience the boys did overcome this better at TAC then similarly affected ladies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(The female teacher crush wasn't at TAC...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13117" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T19:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The cloak people? Fainting cloak people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know that they were all homeschooled by any means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13119" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't even thinking about the cloak people! I saw that more as a weird eccentricity than craziness. It is hard to give hard examples while not naming names, and I think that would be detraction in this context. Let's just say that being homeschooled is one thing, being completely isolate in your development...no homeschool group, parish involvement, etc, just insular is quite another and there were a few at TAC raised in such environments...and while some overcame it, more or less, I think the TAC effect on others worsened certain of the dispositions that arise from such a state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13120" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Throughout my life, I've occasionally been surprised to find out some not very boy-scoutish friend of mine was an Eagle scout (e.g. my roommate Jr. and Sr. years). Thus it was also at TAC, I'd be regularly surprised to learn that so-and-so WAS homeschooled (but that person knows how to make eye-contact and everything!) or that so-and-so was NOT (but that person refuses to communicate in anything other than Elvish!).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13121" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean seriously, who doesn't' know what the middle finger means? "Must be a California thing"....followed by insistence that I am making it up and need to go to confession....okay that was a lighthearted (but real) example, paling in comparison to what I had in mind.<br />FWIW, it took me to junior year to disabuse the notion among some that I was homeschooled....and even in senior year some still thought that.....Not sure what that says about me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes. Homeschool is not the best. Ours are about every other year. Some environments at home are better than others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T19:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's face it, there are some crazy-ass people at TAC, but the worst that I remember weren't homeschooled. Not to name names or anything, but let's just say "yellow ninja costume" and "vaguely Germanic albino-assassin chic."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(And this isn't to say anything bad about those individuals. Just that they were a bit eccentric.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13125" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T19:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife calls odd-ball off the grid homeschool Catholics "fundamentalist Mormon Catholics."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T19:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I suppose every class is different, and I by no mean am saying that public schooled kids can't be crazy! But eccentrism, and deeply rooted social problems are quite different. Maybe I was more attuned to noticing it in certain people more than others....maybe it was because I was the social outcast most of the time growing up, and even these people seemed socially stunted to me. But it wasn't the mere not socializing that was the issue. These people had some warped view on and really unhealthy approaches to reality (judgmentalism, uber piety masking it, and unhealthy attachments) <br />But this is all anecdotal. Perhaps I just hit the crazy jackpot in my experience. Since it seems limited to my experience, or perhaps my class (I am sure some suspect who I am thinking of), no need to press it. We can leave it at the more general observation that sane, beautiful and smart were not unheard of at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13127" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T20:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going to a small liberal arts school where everyone lives on the same campus, secluded from civilization after being in a small secluded homeschool house does not a normal person make.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13128" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Hans Urs Von Balthazar--arch-heresiarch or prophet and saint of new springtime?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13129" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T20:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damning with faint praise there, kenz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13131" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T20:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a curious affection for the actual TAC oddballs although I roundly mocked them at the time... The truth is weird people are everywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13132" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:05:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was very fond of you as well, Andrew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13133" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T20:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lang, I always though you were one of the weird people (not crazy)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13134" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh wait, were you talking about TAC oddballs OTHER than yourself?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13135" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T20:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Homeschooling is not the ideal way to educate children. Discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-04T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-04T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have done both, Samantha Cohoe. It can be great for some kids and great for some parents, but a disaster for others. In short, it depends. I dearly wish we could have made it work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">accenda ossa eius sunt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, that much should be fairly evident, in the abstract.... even assuming that a parent has the time and knowledge to do it all, he ust then also put effort in being part of a community in some other way. Perhaps in a different era (oh 20 years ago seems likes that) where kids did not need helicopter parents, and played in the streets, parks and yards, etc, they could socialize without arranging it. I am afraid no more!<br />Most homeschoolers I know partook to homeschool groups, helped teach each others kids, kids went to a junior college or something for certain subjects....it seems the natural tendency in homeschooling that is not anti-social is to start forming a loosely networked school itself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13139" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T20:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I firmly assert (to myself, over and over) that there is a difference between delighting in zaniness and actually being uncouth and strange, lol. I had a roommate ones who didn't know what pot was... tell me about that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13140" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T20:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Parents are the primary educators, and teachers are in loco parentkis, or should be. It is no natural function of the state to provide education either.<br />But it is a natural function for education to be social. And this is seen especially in the Church. The Church did not respond to mandatory schools through championing homeschooling, but through building a parochial school system, that at one time was open and even free to most Catholics and could be relied on. That was much closer to the ideal...but that too is largely bygone...even good Catholic private schools cost more money than many can reasonably afford...especially large families</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13141" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">i remember a passage in Waugh's E. Campion where he mentions the secluded Catholic families went a bit luny. It is what happens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right - you could add smarts into the matrix along with looks and crazy.<br />Sorry for betraying you, Samantha Cohoe. It was unintentional. My wife and I were both slightly bemused by the video.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pick your poison. I have seen it all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13144" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T20:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well off again....but before I go, more flame for the fire.<br />JA Escalante, Balthsar's view of Christ's descent into hell, where He suffered the pain of the damned, stems from the Calvinist heresy and ends at best in Nestorianism....discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13145" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T20:16:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC is often a halfway house for people coming from loony religious cults.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13146" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, sh** just got real!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Very true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13148" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T20:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does a good job of helping normalize them, at least so far as this is reasonably possible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13149" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though for some it is a halfway house from one such cult right into another. Vide: this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T20:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think a related question to Samantha's is, what are sine qua non qualities of a parochial school? I've been wrestling with this question because we have a mediocre Catholic school locally. Alternative is homeschooled, color me nonplussed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T20:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, Mr Clark is the exception that proves the rule</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13152" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T20:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread transcends cults: it contains multitudes of them within it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I gave up on academics at the parochial. Do they teach the Faith and are kids happy. I find the academics are decent if the first two criteria obtain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T20:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua : pish posh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we were lucky to have very rural schools with mixed grades. But they too are being centralized: one core to rule them all and in the darkness . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante: can Calvin and Luther be reconciled? Don't they deeply oppose one another re political philosophy, among other things?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">von B: ossa eius incendantur. I exaggerate, but I heard he had regrets at the end. Does he know whether hell is empty? How was Spyier not a false mystic? The criteria are pretty clear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13158" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T20:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew-- re: halfway house for loony religious cults, that was totally true for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(93, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have seen way to crazy stuff in Catholic cults. Legionnaires are not the lone loonies. What a mess!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz, it's true, there are lots of ways for parents to remedy homeschooling's inherent deficiencies. And of course it is often the best course available for a family.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13161" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T20:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the inherent deficiencies are very, very real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua should be banned for doing that. Joshua incendus est.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13163" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T20:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ratzinger > Von Balthazar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13164" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Ratzinger is one of H Von B's biggest fans</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13165" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, if an ex-pope can be a fanboy, Ratzinger is one for HvB, far as I can tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson: yes, they are already reconciled. They have fundamentally the same doctrine on all major points except the mode of Christ's presence in the Supper</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13167" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T20:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Roy on facebook?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-04T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-04T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what as to their notion of politics? Aren't you trying to resurrect Calvin here as opposed to Lutheranism and watered down modernism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">trouble, trouble, trouble. Let's talk about Newman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Calvin and Luther's political theology is one thing. See the work of Torrance Kirby who proves it, or Paul Avis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and yes let's talk about Newman, whom we've all read</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13172" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T21:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ratzinger has transcended his mentor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-04T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-04T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, mediocre parochial or homeschooling completely solo?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Classical school!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Forget the Catholic part!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, evangelicals are rocking some small classical schools these days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13177" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^plain truth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where are you these days Adrw?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-04T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-04T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is mediocre?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just watched "The Cosmopolitans." All hail Whit Stillman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13181" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T22:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb and I liked it too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13182" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seemed apropos, given how much Metropolitan references Jane Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13183" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T22:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whit Stillman isn't as good without Chris Eigeman, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^THIS!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Barcelona is my favorite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stillman wrote a large part for Eigeman in "Damsels" and was reportedly quite upset when Eigeman turned him down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Metropolitan is mine, but it's a tough call.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What?? Why did Eigeman turn him down?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is he doing some other thing I am not familiar with?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13190" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe the other thing he is doing is "not acting"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-04T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-04T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">disappointing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13192" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-04T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-04T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did not know that about Eigeman. He is great in Barcelona.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13193" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's great in all of them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13194" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-04T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-04T22:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">True. I especially liked the back-and-forth, though, between him and Taylor Nichols.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13195" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-04T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-04T22:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, TAC has never normalized anything in its entire existence. That's not the point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13196" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-04T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-04T22:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">His riff / re-reading of the closing scene of The Graduate is classic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13197" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Domiane Forte" data-date="2014-09-04T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Domiane Forte at 2014-09-04T22:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You got in trouble, Matthew, because you were dribbling all over yourself while proving a prop. Learn to swallow, man. Man that was an awesome sequence with Karen, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-04T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-04T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But how about Chris Eigeman's character in Kicking and Screaming (1995). I realize that's Noah Baumbach and not Whit Stillman, but still ... if there is any better film about one's first year after college, I'd like to know what it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-04T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-04T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yankees!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13200" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-04T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-04T22:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A friend of Lucy Ferrier wrote a piece on Metropolitan that I rather liked: http://spectator.org/.../what-it-about-%E2%80...<br />What Is It About ‘Metropolitan’?<br />On March 16, Whit Stillman's debut comedy, Metropolitan, left the Netflix streaming library. Such changes are...<br />SPECTATOR.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone said above that poetry is meter, but not necessarily rhyme. But Aristotle says it is more than just meter.<br />"People do, indeed, add the word 'maker' or 'poet' to the name of the meter, and speak of elegiac poets, or epic (that is, hexameter) poets, as if it were not the imitation that makes the poet, but the verse that entitles them all to the name. Even when a treatise on medicine or natural science is brought out in verse, the name of poet is by custom given to the author; and yet Homer and Empedocles have nothing in common but the meter, so that it would be right to call the one poet, the other physicist rather than poet. On the same principle, even if a writer in his poetic imitation were to combine all meters, as Chaeremon did in his Centaur, which is a medley composed of meters of all kinds, we should bring him too under the general term poet."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But at least poetry does not need rhyme, but meter and metaphor (or imitation). Metaphor is RNA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dithyrambic poetry being a metrical song.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And dancing: In dancing, rhythm alone is used without 'harmony'; for even dancing imitates character, emotion, and action, by rhythmical movement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The rhythm of dance with words is meter, and song can be added and this is where the earliest epics may have come from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-04T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-04T22:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This being said, what form is well-suited for today: this post-modern wasteland, in the cave "under the shadow of the red rock" with new glimmers of light?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T23:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The poetic for Aristotle, though, seems to be a much broader scope than what we today would call "poetry".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13208" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-04T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-04T23:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For one thing, Aristotle seems to characterize the subject of the poetic art by having a plot: which is common both to "poetry" and to prose writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13209" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T23:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante, admittedly I am not intimate enough with Calvin to accuse him of agreeing with Balthasar....that was a low blow!<br />But I do think Balthasar's ideas on the harrowing of hell are only coherent in a Nestorian context. And his whole eschatology opens up a lot of issues (e.g. the immortality of soul, true and false about statements said of those that died before Christ...it is almost incoherent thought, but it seems that he says that if it were 500 BC and I said Abraham is in the limbo of the Fathers, that would have been true, but it is false to say now that Abraham had been there, since when we die we awake in the eschaton...the particular and genera; judgments are combined, and there is no period of being a disembodied soul before resurrection... none of these absurdities would I accuse Calvin of)<br />For that matter, I am fairly certain that Calvin does not deny Christ had divine knowledge, which Balthasar does deny (both wrt beatific vision and infused knowledge of divine things). It would be a question, that I am not familiar enough with Calvin himself to answer, what the suffering of Christ in Hell, for Calvin, entailed with regard to Christ's knowledge, particularly the beatific vision. Balthasar says any admixture of divine knowledge would lessen His passion and detract from that. I don't think that is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13210" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-04T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-04T23:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metropolitan is excellent, as is Barcelona and, of course, Last Days of Disco.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13211" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T23:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well if I am not going to have an argument over Balthasar, how about a related one (as far as it concerns ideas about death)<br />The Archdiocese of New York and Cardinal Dolan share the anti-Catholic attitude of the ancient Romans wrt to relics. Evidence: ADNY has stood in the way of +Sheens' cause, blocking attempts to exhume the body (as required by Church law) and +Dolan has said he won't let 1st class relics be taken, as it goes against American sensibilities. Discuss<br />(I am giving up if this doesn't start a fire)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13212" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T23:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua: Calvin doesn't share any of von B's peculiarities. von B is a kook in my opinion. I don't like the soap-opera Trinitarianism, the kenoticism, the ridiculous name-dropping, or the weird Swiss seeress</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-04T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-04T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What was Calvins view vis-a-vis Christ and the Beatific vision? I did read a part of the Institutes on the descent into hell. But I haven't read much else of him himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13214" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-04T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-04T23:59:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want to start a fire here theology isnt the way to do it. You have to say that a line is made up of an infinite number of points, or that Lobachevsky is right, or that TAC teaches too much math. TACers don't care about theology. They care about math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13215" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-05T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-05T00:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll fight about anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, if only for my own edification....what was Calvin's view on Christ as viator and comprehensor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T00:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same here Isak!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13218" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-05T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-05T00:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thought for the evening: anime is terrible. All of it. Discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13219" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-05T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-05T00:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That includes Death Note, Attack on Titan, Cowboy BeBop, et cetera.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dolan seems to have been sliding ever since he wen to NYC. Very sad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T00:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dolan, sliding? Surely you jest!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13222" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T00:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">New York City is the capital of the world. Peoria can suck it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13223" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T00:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*puts on boxing gloves*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13224" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T00:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then why won't he let Sheen be exhumed and dismembered.....wow when you say it that way</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peoria?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Bravo!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13227" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Horton" data-date="2014-09-05T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Horton at 2014-09-05T00:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">End sexism! Just thought was relevant to something in this thread. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Sharks-nine-times-more...<br />Sharks nine times more likely to kill men than women, study says - Telegraph<br />Australian scientists baffled by finding that men are...<br />TELEGRAPH.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13228" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was archbishop of Milwaukee where he knew me on a first name basis by 'Tex'.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13229" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T00:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The way I heard the story, not only was the body to be exhumed but then it was supposed to be transported to the diocese in Peoria. <br />(Milwaukee rocks, by the way. One of the most underrated cities in America.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13230" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now he is the proud grand marshal of which parade?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13231" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T00:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't start with the Irish bashing ... I'm warning you! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been cast out of Milwaukee into the desert tundra.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My kids are Irish and my wife could take you. Just saying. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and my three year old irish german lad could out drink you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dolan. Dolan watchee been a drinkin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13236" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T00:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland: I get it, but no. TAC has COMPARATIVELY normalized many a cultist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Relative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, pm me on Calvin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante: I'll have to read your boys, but from what I've read of Luther and Calvin the idea that they agreed on politics and religion seems self-evidently ridiculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then you haven't read them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 32%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T00:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for just one very basic thing, the reason historians now call them the *Magisterial* Reformers as opposed to Radical Reformers is because Luther and Calvin are on the same page about the Christian magistrate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13242" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T00:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">@John: Das bezweifele ich ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T00:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That seems wild to me. Some texts on the morrow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No doubt. Dolan is lost. Kyrie eleison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13245" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T00:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me the sentiments about TAC expressed above call for another cheer from Daniel Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13246" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T01:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone else feel odd about two of the Luminous mysteries? I find the titles of the third and fifth mystery feel out of place when compared to the other eighteen mysteries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T01:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I would prefer that the third be "The Sermon on the Mount" and the fifth be "The Last Supper")</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13248" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Venegas" data-date="2014-09-05T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Venegas at 2014-09-05T02:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Luminous mysteries?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T02:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So plot would have to be an element of a poem, along with imitation and meter. I wonder what plot and meter would be fitting for a poem today? I wonder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T02:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0<br />Experience the power of a bookbook™<br />At only 8mm thin, and weighing in at less than 400g, the 2015 IKEA Catalogue comes pre-installed with...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Venegas" data-date="2014-09-05T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Venegas at 2014-09-05T02:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey Scott. Long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too long.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T02:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Poetry in general seems to have sprung from two causes, each of them lying deep in our nature... The reason why men enjoy seeing a likeness is, that in contemplating it they find themselves learning or inferring. For if you have not seen the original, the pleasure will be due not to the imitation as such, but to the execution, the coloring, or some such other cause. Imitation, then, is one instinct of our nature. ... Next, there is the instinct for 'harmony' and rhythm, meters being manifestly sections of rhythm. Persons, therefore, starting with this natural gift developed by degrees their special aptitudes, till their rude improvisations gave birth to Poetry."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T02:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Having passed through many changes, poetry found its natural form, and there it stopped." Where is it today? In various forms, including the novella.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T02:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T02:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"the Plot is the imitation of the action."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-05T07:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-05T07:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak have you watched Naoki Urasawa's "Monster"? Just curious...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T08:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T08:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since literature seems to be the only controversial subject these days,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13258" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T08:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T08:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A modest thesis: Casaubon was a great intellect destroyed by a silly woman. http://www.independent.co.uk/.../the-truth-about-casaubon...<br />The truth about Casaubon: a great intellect destroyed by a silly woman<br />MIDDLEMARCH is done. The repeat of the last...<br />INDEPENDENT.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13259" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T08:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T08:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel-- that is hilarious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13260" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T08:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.mcsweeneys.net/.../the-canon-of-philosophy...<br />List: The Canon of Philosophy Student Karaoke Songs.<br />“Total Eclipse of Descartes” “Don’t You (Foucault About...<br />MCSWEENEYS.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T08:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T08:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eliot is pretty rough on all academics through Casaubon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T08:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T08:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She's nicer to hard science academics through Lydgate though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T08:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T08:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But look how she punishes him for flirting with Rosamond!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13264" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T08:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Possibly a stress induced heart attack would have been kinder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13265" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T09:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have watched the entire hot crazy matrix video and have to admit it was a little bit funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13266" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I gave up after about a minute. I have no sense of humor.<br />"how many feminists does it----"<br />THAT'S NOT FUNNY!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13267" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T12:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It’s good to read Thomas and Aristotle, but they seemed to hold to flawed opinion in regards to some key issues on the human soul, which underscores the need for dogmatic theology in the Catholic liberal arts formation. It is interesting to examine the theological basis of the Immaculate Conception.<br />“The proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception expresses the essential datum of faith,” and “prescinds from [cuts away from] all explanations about how the soul is infused into the body.” [Aristotle and Thomas seemed to assert that the soul animates the body after conception. Aquinas seemed to hold the efficient cause of generation is the male, while the female is only the material cause: ‘In perfect animals, the active power is… of the male, according to the Philosopher in De Generatione Animalium, but the matter of the fetus is what is provided by the female.’ Summa Theologiae, Ia, q. 118, a. 1, ad 4.]<br />Thomas seems to have held that the human rational soul is created and infused into the body only when the human parents have, by their generative act, produced a material substance that is disposed to receive and to be informed by a human soul. In one place Aquinas follows Aristotle in saying that the rational soul is infused at 40 days for males, and at 90 days for females... (See: St. Thomas' Commentary on the Book of Sentences, Bk. III, dist. 3, q. 5, a. 2, Responsio; John Haldane and Patrick Lee, Philosophy 78, 2003, 255-278).<br />“The special commission of theologians set up by Pius IX to determine the revealed doctrine assigned the essential role to ecclesial practice. And this criterion influenced the formulation of the dogma, which preferred expressions taken from the Church's lived experience, from the faith and worship of the Christian people, to scholastic definitions.”<br />http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm23.htm<br />IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DEFINED BY PIUS IX<br />At the General Audience of Wednesday, 12 June, the...<br />EWTN.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-05T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-05T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina I have not. Should I? Will it convert me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13269" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, for the sake of argument (duh) what if it were the case that it took 40 days for a human to be "ensoulled"? Isn't that the point at which we would say that human person is conceived? before that, you'd have a mess o' cells that weren't a person. So EVEN if there were a mistaken notion of biology and human ensoulment, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception would still be true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. In fact, this is why the Dominicans opposed the idea of the Immaculate Conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13271" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T13:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Per, Edward Langley's request: <br />I am the best!!! <br />TAC is the best!!!<br />USA! USA! USA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T13:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peyton Manning is the best!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T13:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">O most Holy Virgin, who was pleasing to the Lord and became His mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on me as I implore your powerful intercession. O most Holy Mother, who by your blessed Immaculate Conception, from the first moment of your conception did crush the head of the enemy, receive our prayers as we implore you to present at the throne of God the favor we now request...<br />(State your intention here...) <br />O Mary of the Immaculate Conception, Mother of Christ, you had influence with your Divine Son while upon this earth; you have the same influence now in heaven. Pray for us and obtain for us from him the granting of my petition if it be the Divine Will. <br />Amen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13274" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T13:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I'm not sure that the ensoulment question is really the key issue here. Prior to ensoulment, St. Thomas teaches that there is no original sin to forgive. ST III Q 27 A2. The error in the Summa seems to be when he states that her sin persisted post conception (and ensoulment). Thomas seems to have retreated from this view later in his life, for what it's worth. (See his commentary on the Angelic Salutation.) (I say all this tentatively, as I'm no expert on his teaching on the subject.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13275" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T13:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, the question of ensoulment can still be validly brought up today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do tell Daniel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13277" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know what there is to tell. My only point is that I do not know that the Church's definition of conception has to coincide with a medical definition. Consequently, a position such as Michael forwarded above seems plausible. I do not know that I am compelled to believe that a zygote has a human soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13278" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-05T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-05T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So fellow souls of TNET, I'm looking for great recommendations of short novels or novellas. If we must use a measurement, I really enjoy books between 35,000 and 55,000 words. What does TNET have to say? Give me your best!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13279" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T13:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's precisely the question. to say that the BVM was preserved from original sin "from conception" doesn't mean December 8th 14 B.C.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13280" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, Monsignor Quixote by Graham Greene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13281" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, have you read any Knut Hamsen? I liked Hunger and The Growth of the Soil</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the question of ensoulment a metaphysical or a biological question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13283" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T13:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A biological question, with metaphysical implications.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13284" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T14:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A metalogical question only reached after many syllophors and metagisms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even if we have to take the "conception" in the IC is a biological notion, we are not forced to deny delayed ensoulment.<br />In the case of the generation of Christ (?) Aquinas says he was "all there" from the first instant. There is an objection to the effect that a full human cannot be present until the matter has been sufficiently prepared by the action of prior agents and that this must take time. To that objection, Aquinas responds that (a) what a posterior agent can do, the first can do; so God can dispose the matter himself an (b) something that takes a finite agent time to do can be done all at once by a infinite agent. Consequently, God could dispose the matter to receive Christ's soul in an instant. He could have done something similar in the case of the immaculate conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which I think would mean biologically that Mary never lacked a nervous system and never lacked sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13287" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T14:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a biological question that the matter is properly disposed to be human upon conception? i.e. what is conceived is a human?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13288" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think everyone would say that everything along the way is human and even a distinct human life but not that they are necessarily complete human lives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, obviously St. Thomas is the pre-eminent theologian of the Church. This is not meant to be critical of St. Thomas, Aristotle or the Dominicans. I bring it up because the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception helps illustrate the overall precedence of the Church's dogmatic theology. The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception prescinds, departs from, from Thomas' view of ensoulment. Thomas' application of ensoulment, and that of the Dominicans, was flawed in this case. Chances are his view of delayed ensoulment is also flawed: there appears to be no basis for it. The Dogma means that Mary was free from all Original Sin, fully and wholly, from Her conception. And Mary is not only the Mother of God and the Immaculate Conception, she is also the same kind of being we are. This would suggest that our bodies and souls come into being at the same time at each of our conceptions. Hence, life is sacred from conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13291" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-05T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-05T14:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak It may not convert you, but it is a show I would recommend to even to someone who doesn't like the format. It thoroughly spoiled me for most other anime and now the only stuff I can really watch is Miyazaki and a few of the moodier more stylistic shows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, when was Mary's conception?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13293" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T14:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My Neighbor Totoro is one of the funniest things I've ever seen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13294" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked "Howl's Moving Castle" and "Panyo" as well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting how the early Eastern Church celebrated the Feast of the Conception of Mary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13296" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-05T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-05T14:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Novellas > anime. Discuss. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes Scott. Because we know all pregnancies last EXACTLY 280 days, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13298" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-05T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-05T14:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Novellas need to come back... unless they never left and I'm betraying my own ignorance...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, they last exctly 24,192,000 seconds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-05T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-05T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^well, that's informative</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13301" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nonono 241920000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 units of Planck time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the length of the pregnancy may vary, but they all start at conception which is the very beginning of our formal unity. We are very small in the beginning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like where Aristotle says that the form of a particular poem "advanced by slow degrees; each new element that showed itself was in turn developed. Having passed through many changes, it found its natural form, and there it stopped." I think art forms like the novella develop into their form. It's a great form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so why celebrate on Dec. 8th? and Mary's nativity next Monday?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dec. 8 is when Laura came into the Church at the Dominican House of Studies in DC. It's a great day. I think the early Christians did not have i-phones with calander apps, so it all got mixed up or the liturgical calendar is all up to the Wisdom of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but you can recognize that they are just days that have been picked</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree these dates have been picked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think it is good to have the Feast of the Immaculate Conception near the Nativity because it helps underscore who Mary is in relation to Her Son. Liturgy is poetical which enables you to compress time to better understand the event.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so when is a human zygote ensoulled?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which would mean "conceived"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which soul are you talking about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13312" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T14:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, you are quite correct. The Church does not actually teach definitively when the ensoulment happens, and it says this itself.<br />Here is what the Church says:<br />"Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable." - Donum vitae<br />In explaining the immaculate Conception, Alexander VII explained that it did not refer to the active conception. That was the heretical idea of the IC that was condemned by St. Bernard, and was the version people held when St. Thomas wrote. But nor does it refer to the passive conception of the body, but it refers to the conception of the person. Anything else is heretical. Whether the conception of the person and the meeting of ovum and sperm happen at the same time or 40 days apart, they are distinct in nature, and the conception of the person is AFTER the conception of sperm and ovum in the order of nature. Were it not, the IC would be untenable</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And what time zone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about identical twins?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It happens at the same time. Conception is the first moment of being of the human person, the body-soul unity (so-called).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They're not so identical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13317" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twins don't split until after conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13318" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T14:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sollicitudo omnium Ecclesiarum states:<br />"The devotion to the most blessed Virgin Mary is indeed of long standing among the faithful of Christ who believe that her soul, from the first instant of its creation and infusion into her body, was preserved immune by a special grace and privilege of God from the stain of original sin, in view of the merits of her Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of our human race, and who, in this sense, esteem and solemnly celebrate the festivity of her conception; the number of these has increased ... so that ... now almost all Catholics embrace it. . . . (4) We renew the Constitutions and decrees published by Roman Pontiffs in favor of the opinion that asserts that the soul of the blessed Virgin Mary at its creation, and at its infusion into her body, was blessed by the grace of the Holy Spirit and was preserved from original sin."<br />The mistake is assuming "conception" both means the same thing now as then, and is univocal. It is not. How many Catholics understand the dogma the way proponents of the IC did in the 13th century? Referring to active conception, e.g.? They would be heretics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there are two understandings of what happens there:<br />1) what comes before has a rational soul and when it divides to form a second human, God creates a new rational soul.<br />2) the rational soul is not infused until after twinning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does the soul split or multiply?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see how the rational soul can.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13323" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is there a common soul that precedes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twins are almost like siamese twins, but their bodies have split completely. The bodies of identical twins split after conception. They are two soul at conception in two bodies, in an accidental formal unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can see that the "material" souls do split and multiply in starfish and plants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twins are conceived as two souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, I don't think so, the preceding soul would just become the soul of one of the successors, if it is a rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so the second soul would come from the first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13329" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, if by "conception" you are referring to fertilization, that's just empirically false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twins are conceived as two souls...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">repeating doesn't do anything...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, depends which scenario you're talking about: if you're talking about a pre-existing raitonal soul, the new one would have to be created _de novo_.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is false that the soul of an identical twin is generated from an original soul of the other identical twin. That is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there is no pre-existing rational soul, I think you'd say that that preexisting soul generates a like after division.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, we're in agreement there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so then if the identical twin is from a common fertilized egg, the fertilized egg is either two souls in one body or not yet ensouled</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did anyone claim conception was fertilization or wasn't fertilization?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13339" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twins raise difficulties if the conception of the person is understood as being at the same time as active conception...indeed short of saying both souls are in the same body before it splits, you cannot hold this view.<br />If you hold it at the same time as passive generation, then you can see the twinning process as another act of generative conception.<br />Against Langley, I think it wrong to say even a plant soul divides as such. Rather the splitting, like in twinning, would constitute another act of generation (passive conception), sort of a latent result of active conception. The only difference is that purely natural principles cannot give rise to the human soul, but it is this conception, preceding ensoulment in nature if not in time, that is the explanation of the new person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(so long as we are referring to the rational soul)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, that does not follow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The soul is the formal cause which leads to a division of twins because there are two.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That can't be, Scott, two forms must inform numerically distinct matters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13344" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, before twinning, there must only be one soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical triplets: three souls in one body (accidental formal unity comprised of three formal unities) divided by each soul as formal cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what nature that soul has, is difficult to see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Impossible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13348" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew I could kick start this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does not follow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am surprised you are jumping to false conclusions as if they are certainty. This is biased.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, yes, referring to the rational soul. The question is "when" and if two rational souls are in one body or split, or if the rational souls follow after. If it is one rational soul, then "split" into multiple rational souls is one said to be from the other</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It follows "as the night does day".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what again is the false conclusion?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13355" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott seems to want one fertilized egg to be two people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That one soul could lead to two souls. That identical twins were once just one soul. This is an unfounded claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A fertilized egg can only have one substantial form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So... how long can one thing be two?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's no such thing as a "fertilized egg." That's de-huminizing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One thing can be two for as long as you want to entertain dumb quetions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">matter and form</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I entertain all your questions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I am entertained by them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matter and form at conception = human person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13367" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, "If it is one rational soul, then "split" into multiple rational souls is one said to be from the other."<br />That isn't true, BTW, the rational soul is a special creation by God, so, strictly speaking, it is not from anything preceding except God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I did this, with the twin comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff: identical twins are generated by two souls in what might appear to be one body... do you not think so?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha you're just riffing on my IC claims</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the IC thing was dying out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13372" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley, I have scott blocked...you may want to quote Donum vitae or another magisterium document that says the Church refrains from defining when ensoulment happens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think this is only entertained because it is on that theme</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, ok, then when?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I don't think that can be. Or, at least we have no empirical biological evidence to say that the embryo only "appears to have one body".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, I agree with Ed. That's Pope Ed speaking to me: identical twins is not a rational soul splitting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, either one or two rational souls is directly created by God at the moment of twinning. Depends on what you think of what precedes twinning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13378" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott's two souls prior to twinning seems pretty ad hoc to me, but then so does most everything else said on the subject.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13379" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church does not actually teach definitively when the ensoulment happens, and it says this itself.<br />Here is what the Church says:<br />"Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable." - Donum vitae</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the changing of ensouled to en-rational-souled is a change?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the view that there is no rational soul before twinning would just be Thomas's transitional form view of conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(If this is an item for contention, is it possible for *new* dogma to arise from it? Are we creating theology?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13383" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T14:56:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, for the record, since this business began, I have flown to Italy, spent two weeks here, moved into an apartment, and taken a whole week of classes.<br />In that time, I think I have gotten over ten thousand notifications, because I was tagged in this monster originally and haven't blocked anyone, and for some insane reason haven't unfollowed the beast.<br />YOU ALL HAVE NO LIFE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception of identical twins is two souls animating one body -- or more likely two bodies joined in accidental formal unity -- and the souls generate the division of the body, like siamese twins only divided completely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13385" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T14:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a life, I'm just easily distracted from it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just waiting for Ed to start phoning it in and saying "yeah, you know, Gilson and Maritain might be right, or not. Whatever."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13387" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T14:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lolwut how are there 13,600 posts, don't you people ever get tired of typing and texting...? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twins is like TNET. It appears to be one material form, but it divides.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T14:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13390" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T14:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom, au contraire....I have travelled 1000 miles, went to a wedding, got some Cuban cigars, fixed my sister's computer, worked 60 hrs a week (now down to 36, but overnight) and have created a script to shrink TOPL down to a reasonable size....<br />All of which is just a distraction from my life which is TNET....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the first topic worth discussing on FB... I've been a member for 10 years and I have posted more here than anywhere, ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But yes, identical twins are conceived at the first moment of existence with two human souls informing matter: two formal unities; then separated by their souls, their formal causes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13394" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Tom Sundaram-- i first came to this thread to post a similarly derisive comment. So watch yourself. You could be next.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13395" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, according to the most certain teaching of Thomas Aquinas , number in forms derives from division of matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do I have two souls in me and I just haven't split yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not for human persons though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He had some errors about the relationship between the body and soul at conception,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas argued that the soul was ensouled into matter long after fertilization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But we know our soul comes from God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13402" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T15:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What doesn't take us away from TNET makes us stronger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And God can inform matter at conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13404" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Scott, the Church has never defined that St. Thomas was in error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13405" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The reason we think that is biological evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the same reason, God did not breath life into the matter of a lower life form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Scott, you are positing that two rational souls are in the same body in the same way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, they are not in the same body in the same way, and Thomas' "reason" contra the Immaculate Conception was wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's evidence, and evidence is not the stuff of belief.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...so in one body, they are both there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13411" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">like a parasite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is this why you are a faith before reason person? prefer to believe without thinking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, then Scott believes in the pre-existence of souls</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's probably been condemned somewhere</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">read above. they are conceived together, two souls, distinctly separate in matter but virually united in matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13416" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13417" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heresy!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13418" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T15:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Teaching 4 classes this semester at institutions 40 miles apart, plus multiple publications, consulting, and sundry other stuff - ref-ing my daughter's soccer games, etc.<br />Had multiple people over to dinner last night and awoke at 4:30am for my commute. So far today I've taught two classes, set three meetings, and wrote a memo summarizing a phone call yesterday.<br />You have no excuse Tom Sundaram. <br />The fallacy of the FB lurker has long since been debunked (accusing everyone of wasting time because they post instead of lurk with their time).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha: open Scott's mouth, put words into them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I still have not forgiven you for abandoning the Foothill Cities Blog</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13421" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T15:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only reason I have been posting during the day is I have a data plan for my phone here in Rome - and unlike you gentlemen I have morning classes. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13422" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T15:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The right question is how you have a life WITHOUT TNET.<br />TNET is what give us our power. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, with identical twins, both souls come into existence at conception. How is this asserting the pre-existence of souls?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13424" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T15:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yes, I cannot believe how insane all you people are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, conception and ensoulment are the same thing. But that is different from Biological conception</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I did not mean to offend anybody by pointing out that Thomas's reasons against the Immaculate Conception were unfounded. I did not mean to start an argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, conception and ensoulment are not the same thing. Ensoulment implies pre-existing matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I gotta run, please try to not put words in the mouth of another formal unity. Thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13429" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of those two souls is superfluous to the matter, thus it isn't acting as a form of matter, thus it's just hanging out, pre-existing it's ensoulment into a different matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13430" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just think that seems like a necessary consequence of your view.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13431" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Received some new books today (the ones on the right):</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see that, Samantha, ensoulment is like God putting a soul in pre-existing matter, like pouring water into a glass. This seems like a silly view to me. I do not see that Thomas was not correct about this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, something like that has to happen, Scott, otherwise parents would be irrelevant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13434" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't get ensoulment, either, but your view seems to imply an even weirder kind of ensoulment, Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure what you are saying, Ed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I rule out "ensoulment." I think you are not getting what I said above, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fact that the child's DNA is a mix of its parents's DNA implies that the matter in which the child's soul is received somehow preexists the coming-to-be of the child.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are not getting the implications of what you said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope, the conception of identical twins does not involve or imply ensoulment or pre-existing matter that God pours two souls into.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The conception of identical twins does not imply or involve one soul being ensouled, then dividing. In no way did I imply this. This is a smoke screen, sophistry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then, I guess it's just superstition that we expect children to look like their parents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your point is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(70, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That what you said: "ensoulment is like God putting a soul in pre-existing matter, like pouring water into a glass. This seems like a silly view to me." is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twins come into being at the same time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 95%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">especially the "silly" part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because God _does_ put a soul into matter that pre-exists in some way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I don't think it is possible to understand what you are saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception is the coming into being of the formal and material causes of a person as a formal unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is also true, in a certain respect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hence, evolution involving God placing the soul of man into the pre-existing matter of a lower life form is hard to consider.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, if preexisting matter was completely irrelevant, why does God create a person inside _this_ woman's womb rather than that one's?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception is the coming into being of the human person, the simultaneous union of the formal and material causes of a person as a formal unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not see how that follows as a relevant question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13455" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identical twinning is the conception of two formal unities in one "body," as it were, but these bodies clearly become distinct through time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anything, the human soul in the mind of God precedes matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13457" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^not relevant^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13458" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever you say, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13459" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless he wants to say that the mind of God informs matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(as a formal cause rather than as an efficient cause . . . )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, how can there be two souls in one body?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That God knew us before were were born is entirely germaine. He knows us as a soul in act and as a formal unity in potentia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13463" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pre-existence of souls is indeed heresy<br />If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. - (2nd Council of Constantinople)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Knew I could count on you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can two men be standing in one room?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can siamese twins have two distinct souls?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you saying cases are the same?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The "body" unity is virtual.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does that mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Two persons -- two formal unities -- two body/soul composits -- two persons conceived as soul and body at conception -- reside in one "body" ... which then divides according to the formal principle of their personhood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do not know if the souls of identical twins both equally occupy all of their shared matter, or equal parts: they appear to be one, but they are really two. They are really two before they appear to be two. the thing that makes them two while they still look like one is their soul. Their souls were there at conception as was their matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13472" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">their souls cause them to split into two distinct bodies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, you don't get to posit two body-soul composites and then say they exist in one body.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13474" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, Scott, only a fool would call any of St. Thomas's positions "silly". They might be false, but not false in a silly way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. - (2nd Council of Constantinople)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">see what I mean, Samantha? You're just riffing off of me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks Mr. Kenz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13478" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, day late and a buck short</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13479" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">fine, but it was a good riff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13480" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">like a Norwegian black metal guitarist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, seems like you want to say that there are two bodies and two souls from the beginning, they just look like one embryo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13482" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We should talk about what happens when one twin reabsorbs the other!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13483" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, but Lendman probably was repeating it for Scott's sake</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13486" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">For someone who whines that TACers do not study a specific number of dogmas, even just via responses, I find him woefully ignorant on doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cannibalistic twins?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13488" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it exists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"fetal re absorption"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13491" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, these difficulties are part of the reason the Church prudently does not define when "ensoulment" happens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13492" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The case of Christ was evidently miraculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I'm not positing two body-soul composits in one body. But you do like to put words into others' mouths. LOL. And Thomas's view of ensoulment was ridiculous, as was Aristotle's view; and I do not believe you are an authority on who is a fool and what words I may use. Thank you.<br />Identical twins implies two persons from conception; hence two bodies, at least in potential which become visibly distinct over time.<br />St. Thomas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception. His reason for opposing it was flawed and unfounded. This does not mean that he was not a great theologian. It just means that Dogmatic Theology is more important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The case of the Virgin could have been as Christ's but it is not defined thus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13495" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aut sicut abortivum absconditum non subsisterem, vel qui concepti non viderunt lucem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure what you are saying Daniel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13497" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am about 200 comments back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trying to catch up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13500" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I would conceded that the identical twin zygote is potentially 2 bodies. I would grant that with respect to any zygote actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"On which point the words of Blessed Urban V to the University of Toulouse are worthy of recall: "It is our will, which We hereby enjoin upon you, that ye follow the teaching of Blessed Thomas as the true and Catholic doctrine and that ye labor with all your force to profit by the same."(35) Innocent XII, followed the example of Urban in the case of the University of Louvain, in the letter in the form of a brief addressed to that university on February 6, 1694, and Benedict XIV in the letter in the form of a brief addressed on August 26, 1752, to the Dionysian College in Granada; while to these judgments of great Pontiffs on Thomas Aquinas comes the crowning testimony of Innocent VI: "His teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error."(36)" --- Leo XIII, Aeterni Patris</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13502" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(56, 95%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Got it. If you can figure out how identical twins come into being, you will be ahead of us all. Samantha is mad at me because I described Thomas' view of ensoulment as silly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the usual Thomistic accounts of twinning are kind of a dodge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13505" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T15:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">or rather, neo-Thomistic (20th c)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13506" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does seem to be a real difficulty, however, to say that there are two souls for one body. That would seem to violate the definition of the soul as forma corporis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WRT Mary being conceived like Christ, Alexander VII was clear...IC means the conception of the person, i.e. ensoulment, not active or passive generation of the body. These must precede, in nature if not in time, conception of the person. And if you fail to keep that distinction, you fall into the heresy that St. Bernard and St. Thomas were rejecting (and yes 12th and 13th century versions of the IC were heretical)<br />As such, there is no reason to posit that she was conceived like Christ. The IC does not require it. It is fairly safe to assert that her physical conception and ensoulment was in the same manner as the rest of us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, the zygote is potentially two distinct bodies obviously. But in another sense, they must be distinct even materially in some way, even though they appear to be one body. I think this must be the cause, because they are twins from conception with two souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13509" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, twinning seems to be most satisfactorily explained by delayed ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13510" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But 20th century Thomists do not hold delayed ensoulment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, it is difficult to say there are two souls for one body. They are really two souls and two bodies, in one "body".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least not usually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">exactly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^exactly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13515" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hence the problem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Twinning is explained away by delayed ensoulment. Not really explained.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, even if there is a rational soul present, it has all the powers of the sensitive and vegetative souls and we see in animals and plants that such souls can produce a like via division.<br />All we'd have to say, is that when the person, the zygote, divides, it generates something with a human vegetative (+ possibly sensitive soul) for which God then creates a new rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Delayed ensoulment just seems self-evident to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13519" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, that solution seems at least as implausible as delayed ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So we'd just say that delayed ensoulment is a special case of normal human generation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Two souls and two bodies in one apparent body is not a problem. The souls take care of everything. They divide and grow with the "same" DNA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WRT Mary being conceived like Christ, Alexander VII was clear...IC means the conception of the person, i.e. ensoulment, not active or passive generation of the body. These must precede, in nature if not in time, conception of the person. And if you fail to keep that distinction, you fall into the heresy that St. Bernard and St. Thomas were rejecting (and yes 12th and 13th century versions of the IC were heretical)<br />As such, there is no reason to posit that she was conceived like Christ. The IC does not require it. It is fairly safe to assert that her physical conception and ensoulment was in the same manner as the rest of us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13523" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T15:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The matter has to be suitable to the form ... there is no way that an embryo is suitable to a rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13525" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But we only have ad hoc evidence that it only appears like one body.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, at least is seems very possible that it is not suitable to a rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Likely, even.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13529" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is the two bodies part where there is one cell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I find it more a more satisfying explanation. It is far more mysterious and beautiful. It adheres to the fine notion that conception is the beginning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">2 potential bodies, yes. But that means that they aren't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13532" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Typically I am compelled by arguments from aesthetics. In this case, I fear to be so hasty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is no problem. Zoom in closer. Look at the DNA. It splits into two persons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13534" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the very plausible reason that science might show something else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not think we will prove this. If we try, no doubt we will look silly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13536" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if science creates identical human twins?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13537" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception precedes DNA, so why are you looking at one cell?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception precedes DNA? what does that even mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you mean distinct DNA?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It means that Conception comes before a human genome is present in a person. It is pre-cellular. The splitting of the first DNA strand, and the splitting of the first cell, could be the first division of bodies of "body" informed with two souls. It is something we will never be able to see or prove with science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13541" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what the hell do you mean by "conception" then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13542" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Well that's a tricky kind of argument to refute, huh? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13543" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even if one takes my proposed solution, that the twinning is another passive conception, i.e. a new generation , if the original zygote had a rational soul, it would seem that brother is begetting brother...and well a lot of issues arise. <br />Now Augustine uses the term conception as an ongoing process, and it seems that, insofar as Aquinas views the active power of the seed as continuing for some time, that we may be best at seeing passive conception as something that does not happen at a single point, fertilization, but as something that only begins there. "Ensoulment" would occur as a result of this conception and in a certain sense with it, as being its term. The zygote, still capable of twinning, then would still be undergoing conception, and the generative act would still be ongoing, and hence retain the potential for multiple persons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I though he was going to go with "notionally precedes" or something</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not really (to refute), you can never prove the Immaculate Conception by scientific observation either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought we were talking about twinning?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought conception was distinct from fertilization (even if they could happen simultaneously)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception is the first moment of material/spiritual being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13549" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is not necessarily the same as fertilization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz once said this,<br />Even if one takes my proposed solution, that the twinning is another passive conception, i.e. a new generation , if the original zygote had a rational soul, it would seem that brother is begetting brother...and well a lot of issues arise.<br />Now Augustine uses the term conception as an ongoing process, and it seems that, insofar as Aquinas views the active power of the seed as continuing for some time, that we may be best at seeing passive conception as something that does not happen at a single point, fertilization, but as something that only begins there. "Ensoulment" would occur as a result of this conception and in a certain sense with it, as being its term. The zygote, still capable of twinning, then would still be undergoing conception, and the generative act would still be ongoing, and hence retain the potential for multiple persons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, fertilization is a biological definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so they could be 2 events in time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The zygote is not capable of twinning. Only two souls which appear to be one are capable of twinning. But they are already twins. Twinning is a misnomer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13555" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And this is the part where it become beautiful and mysterious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The zygote is not a potential multi-human.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what what if scientists create a twin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if they clone a human?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will the clone have a soul?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about a child with three parents?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me the obvious answer is, "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you saying that human scientists can take a "zygote" and split the stem cells and form an identical twin -- with a distinct human soul?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you saying that human scientists can take a "zygote" and split the stem cells and form an identical twin -- with a distinct human soul?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They can do crazy things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13566" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T16:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But a three parent child, will he have one and a half souls?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are babies with three parents</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby<br />Three-parent baby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Three-parent babies are human offspring with three genetic parents, created through a specialized form of In vitro fertilisation in which the future baby's mitochondrial DNA comes from a third party.[1][2][3] The procedure is intended to prevent mitochondrial diseases including muscular dystrophy an…<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scientists can't make souls. Human souls do not come from the potency of matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would seem that God provides a soul whenever there is proportionate matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13571" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not so. He provides them together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do not create the soul, only the conditions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not even then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And of course God is not compelled to act, but does so naturally, and normally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"God provides a soul whenever there is proportionate matter" is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13576" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I understand the desire to want to hold your position, but the fact is, scientists are showing this to be the case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You cannot tack one half of a formal unity onto the other and have a formal unity. They must come into existence together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13578" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-05T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-05T16:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND IN THIS CORNER...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And scientists are in no way showing they can induce a human soul from the potency of matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What happens when they clone someone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What happens when the baby has three parents?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby<br />Three-parent baby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Three-parent babies are human offspring with three genetic parents, created through a specialized form of In vitro fertilisation in which the future baby's mitochondrial DNA comes from a third party.[1][2][3] The procedure is intended to prevent mitochondrial diseases including muscular dystrophy an…<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things just don't seem to work the way you want them to Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Human cloning is not a reality. I know modern science can be confusing, but don't let things like "three parent" children confuse you. Three parent children is like organ transplants: borrowed matter. Ethical stem cell treatment involves cells generated by other people. It does not mean if I am injected with stem cell treatments that I become part of that stem cell donor's family.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, you should lose the presumption. Thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13587" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've found a third way<br />http://i.kinja-img.com/.../s--yC.../shjmbv2z2hvfb3k28ncd.jpg<br />I.KINJA-IMG.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your statement that "Things just don't seem to work the way you want them to Scott" is a false presumption. A shallow rhetorical ploy. Don't let modern science confuse you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Yes, the zygote is potentially two distinct bodies obviously. But in another sense, they must be distinct even materially in some way, even though they appear to be one body. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13590" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to point out that ^^ Scott switched to the position I suggested he actually espoused</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's putting words in your mouth now, sir??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../New-spectre-cloned-babies...<br />New spectre of cloned babies: Scientists create embryos in lab that 'could grow to...<br />DAILYMAIL.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No I did not, Samantha. You seem more intent on not being wrong or not losing, than being true. What I said was, in one sense they are one, in another they are two. This is not a contradiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13594" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point, at that time, was to show that modern science has pretty well 'demonstrated' that when the material conditions are provided, so is the soul. It is not as though the soul come through the stem cells.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You said they appear to be one, but are materially two</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Formally, they can be really distinct; materially, they can appear to be one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't trying to be presumptuous, just trying to read the facts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the fact is that human cloning is not real and "three parents" is a myth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13599" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not to mention those experiments done by Driesch (?) where they would divide sea-urchin zygotes in half and each half would develop into complete sea urchins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are they formally distinct or materially distinct? You're being confusing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if a similar experiment works in higher animals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fortunately ethical restrictions have prevented such experiments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Human generation is unique in nature, but plant generation can produce a kind of twin through the potency of matter. The matter is one in form but two in potency. Because the formal cause in man is not induced through matter, I think it can seem implicitely confusing, or mysterious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think, however, it would be rash to dismiss it as an impossibility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel "that when the material conditions are provided, so is the soul" so you're proposing a zygote does not have sufficient material conditions? Just trying to be clear about your position without reading everything lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13606" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, there would be nothing objectionable in experimenting on dogs, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cloning animals is possible, because the animal soul may be induced from a material cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1. Artificial Embryo Twinning<br />Artificial embryo twinning is a relatively low-tech way to make clones. As the name suggests, this technique mimics the natural process that creates identical twins.<br />In nature, twins form very early in development when the embryo splits in two. Twinning happens in the first days after egg and sperm join, while the embryo is made of just a small number of unspecialized cells. Each half of the embryo continues dividing on its own, ultimately developing into separate, complete individuals. Since they developed from the same fertilized egg, the resulting individuals are genetically identical.<br />Artificial embryo twinning uses the same approach, but it is carried out in a Petri dish instead of inside the mother. A very early embryo is separated into individual cells, which are allowed to divide and develop for a short time in the Petri dish. The embryos are then placed into a surrogate mother, where they finish developing. Again, since all the embryos came from the same fertilized egg, they are genetically identical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/con.../cloning/whatiscloning/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw, I think that that is at least a reasonable possibility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Identitcal twins are not human clones. Different process.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks. Also, are some peeps really saying there are no such things as clones??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least in principle, twins should be genetically identical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pop science + liberal arts = OMG!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13615" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Genetically identical == clone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm actually quoting real science, you know from a real university lab.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13618" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Adrw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's pop science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13620" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Scott is saying that he thinks that human clones do not exist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13621" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and are impossible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cloning is the artificial generation of a genetically identical human. The definition you just threw down, Ed, means that identical twins are clones.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13623" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley is holding that artificial cloning is just artificially caused twinning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13624" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T16:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right I meant Scott. The lulz he's provided...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least in certain circumstances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13626" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Genetically, aren't they?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When you say "...I think Scott is saying..." that really is almost the weakest argument there is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just trying to catch Adrw up, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">From the article I linked, it looks like there are two different methods used in cloning experiments: "Artificial Embryo Twinning" and "Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was I wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Samantha is saying that human twins are caused materially.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the former, they literally take a slightly developed embryo, divide it into cells and reimplant the cells which then develop into complete animals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13634" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Daniel is saying that it really is possible for someone to have three parents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13635" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg, I won't say "I think Scott is saying" because I have no clue what position (positions) you hold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13636" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the latter, they take the nucleus from an adult cell and implant it into an egg, which then develops like an embryo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Edward Langley is saying that human cloning is no different than identical twins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Daniel is saying that "twinning" happens after Conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I think Adrw had already caught that, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I think Adrw had already caught that, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T16:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caught up ✅</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I write, "I think..." No disparaging sentiment is intended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, above you claimed that Edward Langley had fallen victim to pop science. That is certainly possible. DO you have any articles that you can link that would argue your case?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13647" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">If all one means by "clone" is "genetically identical" or "very similar", then twinning just is natural cloning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13648" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Samantha is saying that it's just impossible for two formal unities to exist within another kind of material unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I do realize that the genome "develops" after conception because of various induced mutations, but that would happen to clones as well.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, you missed it Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13651" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw is all caught up!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I feel so deprived Daniel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This seems reasonable: If all one means by "clone" is "genetically identical" or "very similar", then twinning just is natural cloning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read this, Scott, it looks to me that one form of cloning is just doing artificially what people do naturally: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/con.../cloning/whatiscloning/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Daniel is saying she does not mean to be disparaging, she just thinks that suggesting thoughts for another is a legitimate form of discussion or argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am still not sure why you are offended by my writing, "I think..." in order to summarize a position. I was actually trying to be respectful and not put words in your mouth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13657" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, by the way, I hold with Samantha that two forms must correspond to two bodies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13658" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-05T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-05T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman you are being trolled</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13659" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that thing that Scott thinks I think is what I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13660" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-05T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-05T16:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have we seen this? <br />http://www.theonion.com/.../guy-in-philosophy-class.../<br />Guy In Philosophy Class Needs To Shut The Fuck Up<br />HANOVER, NH—Darrin Floen is unfamiliar with John...<br />THEONION.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and with most of the other people in this thread)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13662" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have, Katie. Still relevant, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or you could take it as an opportunity to see where your opponent has misunderstood your position, and charitably seek to further explain yourself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, pro-cloning ethicists and eugenicists say that identical twins are the same thing as clones to support the unethical bias.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if that's how the other graduate students view me, Katie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The deduction doesn't follow, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13668" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just because something happens by nature does not imply that it can legitimately be done by art: see IVF, for example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13669" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T16:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or cloning seems to be artificial twinning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel is saying that it's scientifically and metaphysically possible to have three parents, just like pop science is claiming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13671" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If all one means by "clone" is "genetically identical" or "very similar", then twinning just is natural cloning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13673" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am one of the few people left, here, that gives your positions serious consideration Scott. Maybe you shouldn't burn this bridge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel is saying it is impossible to verify that two human souls exist in a microscopic identitcal twin because the Internet does not say so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13675" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, burning his boats led Cortes to victory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel just threatened me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is okay to be wrong, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13678" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Daniel Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is okay to be sad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13681" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do believe Daniel just gave Scott quite the reality check, and Scott found reality threatening.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny: by overthrowing the Aztec civlization, Cortes freed the surrounding tribes from oppression: and look how we now treat him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13683" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(91, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Daniel, it is okay to be wrong sometimes, and sad sometimes, but I think you are very weird.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13684" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Article? It's called magesterium, Daniel Lendman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And add to that, the the Spanish (+ Portugese) ruled portions of the Americas are the only ones where the natives managed to keep their original lands, and I think you learn something about the so-called "Black Legend"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13686" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13687" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_13688" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Freed the surrounding tribes from oppression??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a scientific journal you can link to that shows that the souls of identical twins may be generated materially, Daniel? I am just stating the obvious, you are denying it. The burden is on you, not me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That might be a colored view,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13691" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the Aztecs would raid them for human sacrifices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, and the Spaniards were lovely, enlightened rulers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, the burden is on you, not me. Is there a scientific journal you can link to that shows that the souls of identical twins may be generated materially?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13694" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one is saying that the souls of identical twins were generated materially.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13695" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T16:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I think we've established the deficiencies of the Christendom biology program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least the Spaniards didn't force the natives into reservations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13697" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's true, there are lots of ways to be horrible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And they actually educated them and taught them more advanced agricultural practices in their misisons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, you suggested (above) that a child may have three parents. Is there a scientific journal you can link to that proves this, Daniel? The burden is on you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13701" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(not denying that the Spaniards had their problems, but they seem to have been better colonizers than the English)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13703" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that would be a misunderstanding of my position. My position is that humans create the material preconditions for a soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you link to an article that proves or supports that, Daniel? The burden is on you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More or less: <br />http://www.npr.org/.../one-baby-three-parents-scientists...<br />1 Baby, 3 Parents: Scientists Say Due Date Is In Two Years<br />A medical procedure uses material from three people to...<br />NPR.ORG|BY BILL CHAPPELL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, but "freed the surrounding tribes from oppression?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's your proof? You guys suck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are right, Scott. The burden was on me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On cigars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13712" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, being forced to supply human sacrifices seems to be a pretty severe form of oppression.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does npr offend?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are a creep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we all need to slow down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so is forced labor and racially based subjugation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because it is very unclear why you are so hostile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still think you are a big creep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3LxyiW7-o8<br />Built To Spill - Cortez The Killer<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And angry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now it is awkward for everyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13722" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T16:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">STOP the threats already. This is a philosophy thread. None of that empirical stuff. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys just suck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Demostrably.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What the heck?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pathetic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13727" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arrogant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13730" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I smell the return of ... the Peregrine!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, but the Aztecs imposed that on the surrounding tribes as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was really trying to engage, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stuck on "science." Head-strong, self-appointed arbitors of truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's just that the Aztecs divided the races differently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, probably not helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what? The Spaniard didn't liberate anyone from anything!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13739" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I just finished a big youth prayer meeting thing, so I'm still up at this ungodly hour and can enjoy watching The Neverending Thread unravel a little.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't liberate a slave by making him your slightly better treated slave</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13741" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's just bias.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just trying to follow the arguments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's bias?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13744" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:46:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good work everyone. Have I mentioned that Jane Austen is the greatest English Language prose fiction writer by far?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God bless you Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13746" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going from "offered as human sacrifices + forced labor and racially based subjugation" -> "forced labor and racially based subjugation" is still a step up and being freed from oppresion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we talk about Iran on here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13748" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Pater Edmund, let's talk Iran!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13749" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Iran!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, my guess is, the Colonial mexicans (for lack of a better term) really imposed something closer to a feudal system than outright slavery in Mexico.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13751" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Pater, you have.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13752" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and natural slaves exist. Let's make this JUICY.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You proud TAC alum are just mad because Thomas is not as critical as the Churches Dogmatic Theology, and you don't really focus on that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom, that's irrelevant to the question because any slavery in Mexico was just slavery by law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13755" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iran is a horrible abuser of human rights!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND Aristotle was right all along because projectile motion DOES require a continuous (literally touching) actuality - it just was the physical entity we now call "space-time" instead of air.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iran is not a person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As has been pointed out before, Scott, you're position isn't dogmatically taught.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_13760" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty to God unto the pulling down of fortifications, destroying counsels,<br />And every height that exhalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ;</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13761" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one were a Catholic integralist, or monarchist, one would condemn the false theocracy that was Iran, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13762" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom, I warned you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13763" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott: I know a person named Iran, so nyah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13764" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll be honest. I have no idea whether "Scott," if that is his real name, is serious. NO IDEA!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, people under ISIS might be better off if Iran were to take over the region.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never said it was, Ed. I said Thomas' basis for rejecting the Immaculate Conception was unfounded. His rejection of the Immaculate Conception was wrong and unfounded.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Edward, if we're making guesses, then my guess is that you're wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They would be freed by Iran? Like the Spaniards freed the Indians!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In the encomienda, the Spanish crown granted a person a specified number of natives of a specific community, with the indigenous leaders in charge of mobilizing the assessed tribute and labor. In turn, encomenderos were to take responsibility for their Indian charges, in particular the instruction of the Indians in the Christian faith. The receiver of the grant was to protect the natives from warring tribes and to instruct them in the Spanish language. In return they could extract tribute from the natives in the form of labor, gold, or other products.[1] In the first decade of Spanish presence in the Caribbean, Spaniards divided up Indians who were worked relentlessly. With the ouster of Christopher Columbus, the Spanish crown sent a royal governor, Fray Nicolas de Ovando, who established the formal encomienda system.[2] In practice, the difference between encomienda and slavery could be minimal.[1] Many natives were forced to do hard labor and subjected to extreme punishment and death if they resisted.[1] Queen Isabella of Castile had forbidden Indian slavery and deemed the indigenous "free vassals of the crown." [3] Slavery was often characterized by the geographical displacement of those enslaved and the breakup of communities and family units, but the encomienda in Mexico functioned to rule these free vassals of the crown via existing community hierarchies with the indigenous not forced permanently from their families, homes, and land.[4]"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13770" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, I don't have to PARTICIPATE. I just have to be the Bic to this absurd trifecta joint of nerdiness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That looks like feudalism to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda<br />Encomienda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />The encomienda (Spanish pronunciation: [eŋkoˈmjenda])...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG<br />September 5 at 4:50pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Joel HF Cortez came dancin' across the water</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously I think that Islam is not the true religion, so of course I wish that Iran was Christian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">with his galleons and his guns</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I don't deny, that in practice, parts of the Spanish colonies might have been worse off under the Spanish than under the Aztecs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and when he spun around he discovered the otter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that being said, I prefer Muslims who actually believe in Islam to so-called "moderate" Muslims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't mean to make generalizations, but the way TAC alum argue is to put words into the mouth of others, or attack them like a street gang. It's really flawed and you should take a look at this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can anyone tell me what I did that was offensive?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can one be moderate about the highest good?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, don't worry about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was desperately trying not to put words in your mouth, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-05T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-05T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here comes the part when Scott tells US that OUR rhetoric is flawed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Moderate" muslims just deny the parts of their religion that are obviously horrible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, did you guys see that the SSPX just celebrated mass in St. Peters?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it seems like the Crown of Spain did its best to ensure that the indigenous people were treated well: "Queen Isabella of Castile had forbidden Indian slavery and deemed the indigenous "free vassals of the crown." [3] Slavery was often characterized by the geographical displacement of those enslaved and the breakup of communities and family units, but the encomienda in Mexico functioned to rule these free vassals of the crown via existing community hierarchies with the indigenous not forced permanently from their families, homes, and land.[4]"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It's okay to be wrong?" ... "It's ok to be sad..." What X is saying is this... [then mistate his position.] You think that's all cool and straight up, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">« For is it not one's duty, instead of beginning with criticism, to throw oneself generously into that form of religion which is providentially put before one? Is it right, or is it wrong, to begin with private judgment? May we not, on the other hand, look for a blessing through obedience even to an erroneous system, and a guidance even by means of it out of it? Were those who were strict and conscientious in their Judaism, or those who were lukewarm and sceptical, more likely to be led into Christianity, when Christ came? Yet in proportion to their previous zeal, would be their appearance of inconsistency. Certainly, I have always contended that obedience even to an erring conscience was the way to gain light, and that it mattered not where a man began, so that he began on what came to hand, and in faith; and that anything might become a divine method of Truth; that to the pure all things are pure, and have a self-correcting virtue and a power of germinating. And though I have no right at all to assume that this mercy is granted to me, yet the fact, that a person in my situation may have it granted to him, seems to me to remove the perplexity which my change of opinion may occasion.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13789" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">joel, how did that go down? What does it mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13790" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Spaniards probably did lots of things that were bad by their own standards, and certainly by modern standards. I think most of the opprobrium leveled at them is whig history, since *obviously* they had to be much worse than the English, right? Right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The difference between you and us, Scott, is that we generally back up our positions with credible documentation and arguments. You seem satisfied with bare assertion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The "It's okay to be wrong?" ... "It's ok to be sad." was my counter trolling,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Tom, the rhetorical and diplomatic skills of TAC graduates are reputably deplorable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a ridiculous assertion on its face Ed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13795" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not willingly mis-state your position..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In all sincerity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There you go, Scott, proving my claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We all do plenty of asserting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is counter trolling? Suffice it to say, that was not straight-forward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13800" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, tI don't know if they were worse that the English, but they were certainly different from them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I'm saying is that they didn't "liberate" nobody</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you just proved mine, AGAIN, Ed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That part wasn't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13805" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T16:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Presented without comment: http://therapists.psychologytoday.com/.../prof_results...<br />Front Royal Antisocial Personality Therapist - Antisocial Personality Therapist Front...<br />THERAPISTS.PSYCHOLOGYTODAY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13806" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They got permission, and celebrated mass in honor of St. Pius X's feast day. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../sspx-priest...<br />RORATE CÆLI: SSPX Priest Celebrates Mass in Saint Peter's Basilica<br />RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13807" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is helpful to recognize that often there are many people aligned against scott's position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13808" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is hard to argue coherently against a crowd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just saying, St. Thomas's basis for rejecting the Immaculate Conception was unfounded. His position was wrong. Agree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Which is why I was trying to restate your position Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13811" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T16:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">From Scott's perspective, it easily seems like ganging up. Ensoulment is puzzling. Kind of like how did God create the foundation of the world. And cloners are playing God it seems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13812" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, what if the religious tradition you were raised in is based on idol/demon worship, like Hinduism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You were misrepresenting my position Daniel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unintentionally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13815" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wouldn't it be better not to throw oneself into that religioun generously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">beat me DL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13817" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gotta run, you dear, sweet people. God bless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott--if Daniel was doing that, he certainly didn't mean to. I think your response should be to show him what your position really is, instead of flying into a trollish rage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg, he was wrong about the IC, but I don't see that he was wrong about the genesis of a person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, I'm not sure exactly how wrong he was about the IC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Who is the he, there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13822" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come on guys, are we really lecturing Peregrott on manners? Have we learned nothing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">because to know that, you'd have to know what his contemporaries meant by "immaculate conception".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13824" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T16:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is an Indian tribe in Mexico that has a legend according to which after the Fall of the first man and woman the tree turned into a pine tree, the fruit into a pine cone, and the snake...into a Spaniard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, Thomas Aquinas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks like we've roped Mr. Susanka into TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13827" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah. I'm going to keep banging the drum of, it isn't all that clear that Thomas does, in fact, ultimately reject the IC. Certainly his biology doesn't compel one to reject the IC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good Q about idolatry Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whoops.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish this conversation would turn to human chimerism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly Islam is an improvement over the fire-worshipers of ancient Persia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T17:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I think it is okay and reasonable to suggest that Thomas might also have been wrong about the genesis of the human person. He may have neen right, but it is also reasonable to hold that Conception may involve the simultaneous coming into being of matter and spirit. That's all I was saying. I think the reaction/response of the TAC "gang" is demonstrative. Gotta run. Nice chatting with you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13833" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, the people he was most directly arguing against in the Summa (if what I read is correct) DID have a heretical conception of what the IC was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Sometimes I feel like there was a whole conversation I missed in the conversation we were having.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Very often Scotts summary seems so very different from they way I recollect things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard to argue coherently if you're Scott</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you have to believe that significant knowledge of the true God can be had through Islam to admire Islamic "fundamentalists"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13838" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael that's not nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And also that the false things taught about him don't outweigh the true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13840" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"We may formulate the question discussed by them in two propositions, both of which are against the sense of the dogma of 1854:<br />the sanctification of Mary took place before the infusion of the soul into the flesh, so that the immunity of the soul was a consequence of the sanctification of the flesh and there was no liability on the part of the soul to contract original sin. This would approach the opinion of the Damascene concerning the holiness of the active conception.<br />The sanctification took place after the infusion of the soul by redemption from the servitude of sin, into which the soul had been drawn by its union with the unsanctified flesh. This form of the thesis excluded an immaculate conception.<br />The theologians forgot that between sanctification before infusion, and sanctification after infusion, there was a medium: sanctification of the soul at the moment of its infusion. To them the idea seemed strange that what was subsequent in the order of nature could be simultaneous in point of time. Speculatively taken, the soul must be created before it can be infused and sanctified but in reality, the soul is created and sanctified at the very moment of its infusion into the body. Their principal difficulty was the declaration of St. Paul (Romans 5:12) that all men have sinned in Adam. The purpose of this Pauline declaration, however, is to insist on the need which all men have of redemption by Christ. Our Lady was no exception to this rule. A second difficulty was the silence of the earlier Fathers. But the divines of those times were distinguished not so much for their knowledge of the Fathers or of history, as for their exercise of the power of reasoning. They read the Western Fathers more than those of the Eastern Church, who exhibit in far greater completeness the tradition of the Immaculate Conception. And many works of the Fathers which had then been lost sight of have since been brought to light."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So is that what you think, Pater Edmund?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13842" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm<br />CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception<br />In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary 'in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt…<br />NEWADVENT.ORG<br />September 5 at 5:03pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Michael Beitia and Samantha, the Catholic priests in the Americas defended the natives against the Europeans. <br />How many English/native mixes do you find? Where are the NE US "mexicans"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the U.S. was a lot worse to the Natives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't claim the English were better!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13845" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it never goes well, when stone-age encounters modern-age.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13847" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can all still hate the English.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By "liberation" all I meant that going from Aztecs -> Spaniards was not like going from "Chinese Landlords" -> "Maoists" but more like going from "English Colony" -> "Slave-permitting US"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not the one advancing crazy claims about Old Worlders liberating New Worlders!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By liberation what Edward mean was a rather bombastic rhetorical flare that he does not fully believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just retract the "liberate" comment, Edward. Then we're all good here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it probably helped drive away a troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know their political theory, but from what I've read Iran's theory sounds like a religious version of Hobbes' leviathan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a historical fact, that Cortes's expedition liberated the surrounding tribes. Now, perhaps the succeeding Spanish government oppressed them again, but that was not Cortes's expedition and, for all I know, not the way Cortes intended his conquest to turn out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't liberate a slave by making him a different kind of slave!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cortes immediately set up shop as overlord</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13857" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A hierarchical society =/= slavery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(unless you're Rousseau)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13859" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-05T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-05T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should come by and liberate your alcohol collection, Edward. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_13860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pleeeeeease.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see evidence that the Spanish set up a feudal society in Mexico and that (as often happens in feudal societies) individual officials oppressed the Indians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">encomienda was distinct from slavery in theory but not in fact</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was inherently oppressive because the Indians had few rights, and none that were consistently enforced</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's like saying "crony capitalism" is distinct from slavery in theory but not in fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no it is NOT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They also didn't have twitter to inform the Queen of their plight immediately.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda hard to have a consistent domestic policy if message transport involves a month round-trip.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(or more)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13869" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not attacking your precious Queen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She probably meant well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund left again already. sigh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13872" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T17:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha it was a bit more complicated than that in Mexico and the New World generally</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">more complicated than what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I'm still here. I don't know about false things outweighing the true. I have to look into it more. But they do say a lot of true things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">than you're making it out to be</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13876" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The feudal system in Europe wasn't a form of slavery either: but there were plenty of rulers who abused their authority (King John in England, for example)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">re the status of the natives</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, the natives had lots of rights under the Spaniards that were consistently enforced?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But only an Enlightenment philosopher would call the European serfs "slaves"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point is that your criticisms apply to feudal systems generally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That God is compassionate and merciful, the Creator of all things, the guide and lawgiver of mankind, who sits enthroned above the shifts of time, who changing all things remains Himself unchanged.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA Escalante ensoulment is a difficulty for Thomism. Is there a theory for which it isn't?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm making a particular historical point, Edward, not a broad theoretical claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13884" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T17:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">they had rights as subjects of the Crown which were enforced with increasing consistency</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13885" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T17:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it varied by regions and period, but in general it was a movement toward greater consistency; at some points the criollos were actually angry that the Crown was doing so much to enforce the rights of the new subjects</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And my historical point was that the kinds of abuses you found in the Spanish colonies are the kinds of abuses one finds in feudal societies generally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And are consistent with a "liberation" narrative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13888" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T17:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but generally I prefer to agree with Samantha so I'll leave it at that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heck, you found similar abuses in the American south re. Catholics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Except feudal European societies weren't based on a conquering race subjugating original inhabitants</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13891" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is a pretty huge difference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tell that to the Basques.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or the Scots, or the Irish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Alsace-Lorraine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Normandy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Saxons under William the Conqueror?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, for the most part, then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most of European society was founded by Roman conquest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13899" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and a long period of naturalization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">those people weren't liberated by their conquerors either</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the tribes surrounding the Aztecs _were_ liberated by the conquest in some minimal sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13902" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">“…the Third Estate need not fear examining the past. It will betake itself to the year preceding the ‘conquest’; and as it is nowadays too strong to be conquered it will certainly resist effectively. Why should it not repatriate to the Franconian forests all the families who wildly claim to descend from the race of the conquerors and to inherit their rights of conquest? If it were purged in this way, I think the nation might well recover from the thought that thence-forward it would be reduced to the descendants of mere Gauls and Romans. When our poor fellow citizens insist on distinguishing one lineage and another, could nobody reveal to them that it is at least as good to be descended from the Gauls and the Romans as from the Sicambrians, Welches and other savages from the woods and swamps of ancient Germany? ‘True enough,’ some will say; ‘but conquest has upset all relationships and hereditary nobility now descends through the line of the conquerors.’ Well, then we shall have to arrange for it to descend through the other line! The Third Estate will become noble again by becoming a conqueror in its own turn.”<br />- Emmanuel Joseph Sieyès What is the Third Estate?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They no longer had to give up their men and women as human sacrifices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T17:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/.../arthurian-republicanism/<br />Arthurian Republicanism<br />> “...the Third Estate need not fear examining the past. It will betake itself to the year preceding the ‘conquest’;...<br />EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Could you define "Third Estate", Pater Edmund? I often confuse the various "Estates".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/pVP9U4XK7FE?list=UU5Qm7V52b06JC36LLmXOQpg<br />Understanding God's Mercy, Lesson One (1/8) by Sheikh Dr Shomali, July 2010,...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it was a pretty long time before the rights the crown granted the natives made it to the New World in any very real sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the meantime, most of them were dead from smallpox anyway</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was a limitation of the transportation available at the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-05T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-05T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The first is the nobility (Frankish conquerers according to semi-official mythology), the second the clergy, the third the other people, Gauls according to Sieyès.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13911" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, it's true, there was generally a lot of conquering all the time in history. I take back that claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you told the Indians at the time of Cortez that the Spaniards had liberated them, they just didn't know it yet because of the limits of transportation available to their masters, I think they'd be rather nonplussed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think whether or not the Indians thought they had been liberated would depend on whether you asked an Aztec or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Spaniards didn't just enslave and slaughter Aztecs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/20321/pg20321.html</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But don't take my word for it, take Fr. Bartolome De Las Casas's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was focusing on what is now called "Mexico".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the Aztec Empire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, historically, it's also not clear that Cortes is reponisible for what happened after his conquest of Mexico.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He wasn't exactly on good terms with the Spanish government.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13921" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is a perfectly respectable position to hold that the natives were better off under Spain than under the Aztecs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a moderated version of your original claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I have to make dinner. Ciao</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's all I meant by "liberation"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bye!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13926" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T17:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson No one's talking! Take it down! Take it down! Take it DOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWNNNNN!!!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13927" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T17:55:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N1Q8oFpX1Y<br />JIBO: The World's First Family Robot<br />CROWDFUNDING NOW at http://www.myjibo.comMeet JIBO! See what JIBO can do, and how he can fit in and is...<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />September 5 at 5:54pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Joshua Kenz All of the Europeans were more or less dicks to the natives. Of all the evil they are accused of, though, toppling the Aztecs was actually a good thing, in se. But human sacrifice was practiced elsewhere...Incas, Chimu, Moche....to this day in the highlands of Peru remnants of ritual combat happen every year where, before planting crops, members of different villages go all combaty with each other.<br />Now just because the Aztecs, and much of South American dominant tribes were evil, doesn't mean Europeans replaced them with beneficence.<br />In fact, if anything, the French treated the Indians far better than the Spaniards. And both were better than the English.<br />I have been told two reasons why the French treated them better<br />1. Religious- they have souls, must be converted. But this was true of the Spaniards and Portuguese<br />2. No legal slavery. Technically true of the Spaniards (on paper)<br />But really:<br />3. But here is what set them apart....they were interested in furs and the like, and less in land. It is simply more economical to be on good trading relations. No need for plantations, field hands, etc. Expediency, not beneficence.<br />Now, against Mrs. Cohoe, it must be said that members of other tribes did aid and ally with the Spaniards against the Aztecs. I think at the time they would see it as being liberated...it is what came shortly thereafter that would change that perception.<br />I also think the deplorable wickedness of many S. American tribes, either contemporary (Aztec) or already gone (Moche) was often seen as giving too great a warrant to lord over them. After all, their society was Satanic...if we have to subjugate them in order to save them, it is merely because they are savages.<br />The English and French had less basis for asserting such reasoning, of course, but that didn't stop the English....well in fairness, colonials. England, at least after the French and Indian Wars, had a far more humane policy. Which we enumerate among the intolerable acts of tyranny of course, but that is a whole other can of worms there!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still want to hear more about the various options if one believes in an immortal soul for a material animal (i.e. man). Heck, it's hard to understand even with the other animals!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, the break up of families and the attendant evil was not inherent in slavery. Even the Southern Jeremiads condemned that great sin in the ante-bellum south. In other words, even some of the fiercest proponents of slavery, said the south would be punished by God because of breaking up of slave families and the like<br />Brazil, which had slavery for a little while longer, did not allow the break up of families. Neither did Imperial Rome. That the Spaniards forbade such is a small thing, since even the Portuguese did that and they had slavery (de jure and de facto).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point, though, was that the legal framework the Spaniards imposed on the natives is not a matter of "slavery".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's problems seem to stem less from the system itself than from corrupt officials.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T18:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our Lady of Gaudalupe did not come to save anything but a less than hopeless situation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The relation of the French to the Indians is interesting, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially in World War 0 where the Indians were employed by the French to basically wage total war against English settlements.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, I made dinner. I think Mr. Kenz summary is pretty much right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13936" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would you also argue that Russian serfdom wasn't slavery?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, I am having a hard time following your analogizing the Spanish system with an 18th century fictitious system. You are saying that the Spanish modelled it after the construction of French philosophes writing 200 years later?<br />In case you cannot follow that, you do realize feudalism is a myth, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, as far as I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you thinking of manoralism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't using Feudalism in any technical sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, then what sense were you using the F-word in? I know of no consistent meaning, as bad historians trying to force it bak through projection come up with various contrary meanings....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13942" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Russian serfdom is a good example of "feudalism" that wasn't technically slavery, but in fact was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I meant was that, as far as I can tell, the government of the new world was just an extension of the way the government related to commoners in the Old World.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I would guess encomienda was a lot worse, at least at its worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In all seriousness, I have no idea what that word is supposed to mean here! Do you guys mean manorialism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know what Edward means. I think he just means that the natives were laborers on land that wasn't theirs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13947" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay...sorry the cranky medievalist in me awoke. Fr. Thompson said once that if you even want to see a medievalist rant, just use the "F-word" (Feudalism).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, let's just agree that "liberation" was a ridiculous thing to say, and I may have initially overstated the evils of encomienda</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*may* have.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13950" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can I call you Ed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13951" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13952" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that it is ridiculous to say that the Spanish liberated the natives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I still reserve judgment about Cortes's expedition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_13955" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe, once I finish the Ph.D. thing I'll look in more depths into Spanish history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13956" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Joshua, it looks like Manorialism is essentially what I meant by Feudalism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(at least if Wiki is to be trusted)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting aspect though of the Spanish system....it encourage interbreeding with Europeans, as mixed-race were not subject to force labor. Compare that to the ante-bellum south....even if you could pass as white, e.g. most of the Healy family, if your mother was a slave, you were a slave (which leaves us with bizarre aspects of history, like a US naval officer who was legally a slave, a president of Georgetown that was born a slave and served while it had a no blacks policy, a bishop of Portland Maine that was legally a slave even as he was ordained a priest....oh that wacky Healy family, pretending to the black Irish...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13959" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not to mention the Grimm family.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps this is all I mean: "varying degrees of servile peasantry underpinning a hierarchy of localised power centers."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm curious to learn more about Russian serfdom, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My knowledge of Russian culture is pretty much limited to literature and Tchaikovsky.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">From the little I've read, the Russian system of serfdom was radically different than, say, the English system of "feudalism." But the emphasis here is on *little*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And all that tells me is that Tolstoy wanted to free the serfs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A movement which seems to have lead directly to Communism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-05T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-05T18:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it was pretty different; England was always "freer", and got more free. Russia started out pretty free, and got increasingly less free, until Catherine initiated the reforms and Alexander completed them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could buy and sell serfs in Tolstoy's day. Which you couldn't ever do to the peasantry of England, as far as I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13968" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was that a matter of buying and selling the land the serfs lived on?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno how that compares, say, to the French system in the middle-ages.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd assume that, generally speaking, the ruler of the European serfs would be whoever owned the land they lived on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie Duda--explain serfdom in Tolstoy's day to us!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The curious thing about Tolstoy, is that he seems to thinks that the serfs were the real Russians. (cf. that dancing serf scene in W&P)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13973" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know what a real weakness at TAC is? History. We don't learn it at all, basically, outside a few ancient works the first two years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13974" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The medievalist in me wants to post this:<br />http://historymedren.about.com/od/feudalism/a/feudalism.htm<br />The Problem With Feudalism - the F-Word<br />Feudalism was once considered the prevailing social system of medieval Europe. But most medievalists have...<br />HISTORYMEDREN.ABOUT.COM|BY BY MELISSA SNELL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13975" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That said, how do you, ethically and really distinguish a serf from a slave?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Thanks for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like I should work feudalism into a conversation with Dr. Noone now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've already got him to rant about how only paleographers can determine what Aquinas really thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13979" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">???? So what, like the 10 people on earth that can read his handwriting have some Thomisticgnosis....?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only about 5 paleographs, from what I've heard</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's worse than that, you have to have read all the manuscript sources to really understand what St. Thomas thinks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Dr. Noone a Dunceman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, basically nobody really understands it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(i.e. Bonaventure, Alexander of Hales, Guibert of Tournai . . . )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably Br. Reginald back in the day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, he's said that explicitly about analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Who says what about analogy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, for him and for most paleographers, understanding what St. Thomas thinks presupposes that you know who St. Thomas is responding to every time Thomas takes a position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Noone has said that Noone thinks no one (or almost no one) understands St. Thomas's doctrine of analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Noone is CUA's resident Scotist, but this isn't a particularly Scotistic position: The acclaimed Fr. Gauthier (who edited the Leonine edition of the commentary on Nic. Ethics) seems to have thought something similar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(75, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No offense, but he sounds like an impossible blow....really?<br />And I suppose you need to under who they were responding to, and so on ad infinitum, or until we hit the point that we haven't a clue, because we don't have every thought, coversation, etc down</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, it seems to be the general position of the real Gilsonians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13993" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So their position is that they don't have a frickin' clue what St. Thomas actually holds, because we know they do not have some hidden gnosis unavailable to everyone else, and their demand is impossible in reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think his position is a characteristic error of paleographers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just like there are certain opinions about music that are characteristic errors of musicians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To overexalt their authority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basically, in my experience experts generally treat their area of expertise as the Master Science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Noone himself claim to understand said doctrine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_13999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I think his general position is that Aquinas hasn't seen all the difficulties and questions needed to resolve the positions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that Aquinas is usually too ambiguous on key points to be understood through mere consultation of his texts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another example of this error, though, we had a literature professor give a lecture at TAC once. In the Q&A, he explicitly said that the study of literature should direct all the other sciences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was kinda surreal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T18:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah the old, he can't have a position, he hasn't answered every possible objection yet!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, note, Noone is really amazing in terms of the extent of his reading and what he knows about the history and positions various medievals held.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda natural for a Scotist to take that path, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14006" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T18:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, it isn't TAC's fault that historians don't write great books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T18:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">read Livy and tell me that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that was "modern historians" don't write great books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I kid I kid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mostly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, what Ed said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IDK I've got a great history of the 30 years war that came out relatively recently</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14013" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T19:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But to go to what point can be made from what Noone says - if you want to understand great books one must turn to context.<br />It's great that TAC bends the stick the other way to break students free from rampant historicism, but after the beginning it provides one really needs to know context if one wants to truly understand the meaning of those great and not so great old books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but the necessity of context for philosophy is pretty minimal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14015" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My counter-point is that if St. Thomas didn't think he needed to mention his sources and footnote to be understood, why should we need to read those sources?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-05T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-05T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought Ramachandra Guha's history of modern india was quite good... edit: this comment was meant to be after Michael's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes if</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if context is "minimally important" for a study of philosophy then why does TAC seminar (where the bulk of the philosophy is) proceed historically?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps because TAC doesn't intend to teach philosophy in seminar?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wouldn't call it minimal. Great errors arise comes from ignoring it. St. Thomas wasn't writing for people 7 centuries from his time.<br />If you're talking about the Summa, he was writing a textbook for advanced students. So yah, no footnotes. But he wrote what he did in the midst of very heated battles - I would hope that in grad school one dug into them for the sake of fully understanding him!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14022" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Teaching philosophy ahistorically is an error</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, to some degree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone like Locke is a good case in point. You can make Locke look like a number of different (even opposing) things depending on what you read of him and what part of context you are aware of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it possible to understand Kant's first critique independent of Newton and British empiricism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Teaching Kant, in TAC's book, is only teaching philosophy per accidens..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even Aristotle places himself contextually by citing all the presocratics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14028" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I grant that philosophy itself is not per se historical - but it is conducted by human beings who live in time and place and communicate within that time and place with the language they're given.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When they intend to teach philosophy (i.e. in the philosophy tutorial), they proceed according to the ordo doctrinae.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Aristotle makes his own writing historical and contextual by citing his predecessors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to understand what his philosophical project is he thinks it is important to place it in context, at least in the "history of ideas"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle's procedure in citing predecessors is important, though, he generally mentions them in the context of laying out the possible positions on some question. In fact, even if all those philosophers were lost, the Aristotelian text would still make sense because the important thing is the position rather than the positioned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not against the history of philosophy per se, anyways. Especially when people realize that doing such history isn't just a matter of listing everyone's position on a given question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14034" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, it gets tiresome when medievalists prevent one from doing philosophy in the medieval mode: i.e. they want you to write monographs about Quaestiones Disputatae rather than writing your very own commentary on the Sentences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14035" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The historicism currently rampant often treats medieval philosophy as a dead school of thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not even Duane Berquist audio will make Aurelia sleep</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting that the best old historians are little grasped or i should say appreciated by historians. Their inquiries and investigation transcend their eras.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14038" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T19:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle observed that poetry (tragedy) was superior to history because of its universal character.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14039" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not talking the "history of philosophy" but it is important to study chronologically because the ideas (positions as you put it) are usually a response to someone else, especially more so from the medievals on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The recent project to historicize philosophy is an attempt to particularize the universal. If one step away and look at poetry instead, many of the great poets require not much historical context to understand. (It was part of Bacon's project to historize all disciplines and we pretty much all lined up like docile ants to contribute our own iota.) But is Plato understandable without volumes of context? Is Aquinas so different? Isn't it a presumption against the possibility of what he attempted?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14041" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel-- is that why Catherine isn't on this thread much?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">isn't there a pretty good transition from British Empiricist --> Kant --> Hegel --> etc etc?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14043" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, that's the position I deny, at least for the medievals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, do we even bother to study all the figures in the British Empiricist tradition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually have a historical theory of error</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14046" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one is setting up a position simply for setting up a position, not because someone *actually* held that position, isn't that what we call "straw man"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been thinking about Scott's two souls in one body theory of twinning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14048" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No: a straw man is also an intentionally weak position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone want to hear a defense of his position?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heretic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">heresy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unlike Scott, I do not deny my heresy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go ahead, Samantha? (Is it ok if I just call you Sam ?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe to you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a straw man if you're setting up a position no one holds specifically to refute it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I think the problem we all had with his position is that we basically have an Aristotelian understanding of the soul, and don't see how a body can have two forms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. doesn't apply to people who went to school with my in-laws .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What? Who're your in-laws?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jonathan and Henry Teichert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, what if we say that there was divine intervention, such that both souls simultaneously act as form of the matter in exactly the same way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, who did you marry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bernadette.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14063" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now, obviously, this *is* seriously ad hoc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there doesn't seem to be a solution to the problem that isn't seriously ad hoc. Other than ensoulment taking place later, which has its own problems</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that defense might involve a contradiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mor soon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, congrats.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why does later ensoulment cause problems</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14069" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-05T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-05T19:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, I don't think that is possible. Even if we took a faulty Scotis view, of multiple substantial forms in one body, they are still conatined by the higher form. If they both act "in the same way" well, I think that is just incoherent.<br />It is also difficult, because one would basically have to hold that God, forseeing the twinning, prepares for it by cramming two souls in, but twinning really does seem to be a natural process of generation, and is potential in any zygote....so does every zygote have an indefinite number of souls? It just seems like a huge stretch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael--it does seem asdhic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14071" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry, toddler attack</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MB. I agree with you and Langley. wrt old historians they were not about the mere chronicle of deeds and facts. Why did Herodotus write? Plutarch? Bede? They were more universal in their aims than many contemporary philosophers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is one, self-directed, biological organism from conception. If it doesn't have a rational soul, what sort of organism is it? Is it still human? I dunno, maybe it's not a huge problem, but it seems strange to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm not entirely clear on what the later ensoulment view entails</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to quibble, Joshua, I'm not sure that Scotus's pluriformist view is actually objectionable: from what I've heard, it seems closer to the view of elemental presence Aquinas lays out in De Mixtione Elementorum than a full-blown pluriformism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh, your second paragraph seems right. I don't understand your first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, on further thought, why would it be problematic to assert that God foresees every aspect of twinning and provides an extra soul? Other than the ad hoc problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the second soul to inform the matter, the matter would have to retain the potency to form in the way it had it prior to information. But that would imply that there were two matters in the composite: in addition to the proximate matter (flesh and bones, etc.) there would be this unchangeable remote matter that just kinda sat there. But that just isn't the way matter works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14079" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One argument: matter is relative to form; thus, as the more universal form stands to the less universal form so the remote matter stands to the proximate matter; but the more universal form (i.e. the form of substance) does not stand to the less universal form (i.e. the form of man) as one form two another but rather as two aspects of the same form. So too, the more remote matter does not stand to the more proximate matter as two matters but rather as the same matter considered in two different ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T19:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Joshua nailed it. Does God foresee the twinning or tripletting, etc and stuff in X number of souls ahead? It certainly seems more like twinning is a natural potential of zygotes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14081" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, so is being conceived a natural potential of human persons. But we still think God has to "stuff in" an immortal soul, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus, after information, the matter in the man doesn't retain the potency to the soul of man in the way it did before hand and, as such, cannot be re-informed by a form of the same kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14083" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, sorry, I've put the kids to bed and had a beer. Your last two seem like gibberish to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They might be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><<Well, so is being conceived a natural potential of human persons. But we still think God has to "stuff in" an immortal soul, right?>>> Seriously, though, is this what we think? This ensoulment talk has me confused.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14086" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--the Thomistic-Aristotelian view of ensoulment--even for purely non-rational souls--always confused the hell out of me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, I follow it, but it * does * seem ad hoc and "like a dodge." Still, the other views of ensoulment of which I'm aware seem even shiftier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see what's confusing about it. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_14089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The hey presto creation ex nihilo is awfully convenient, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, that's absolutely necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14091" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only God can create an intellect: since if something lower could create an intellect, that intellect would be perfectly satisfied by contemplation of that lower thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it's beatitude wouldn't be the beatific vision.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14093" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, I mean, I'm convinced by it. But it doesn't sit easily. Like I said, it follows from things I think have to be true, and every other explanation seems even weaker.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, but what's the difference between saying that God put two souls in one zygote knowing that there would be a twinning, and saying that God puts an immortal soul in a sufficiently developed embryo? Am I getting the ensoulment view wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because matter must be proportioned to form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though, actually, I reject your argument Edward. Only on the order of grace are humans called to the beatific vision.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-05T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-05T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But this lower thing that co-creates the intellect creates a matter that is only able to exist as an intellect-infused thing. In other words the matter of man (species not gender) must be rationally ensouled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Get out of here with your nouvelle theologie!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's Augustine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In twinning the soul splits in two. Twins have strange characteristics. Mysterious indeed. Far more we cant know than can and both outstrip by light years what we think we know. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_14101" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, you misspelled "Henri de Lubac"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T20:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I'm pretty sure that's NOT what we want to say</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IT's also straight out of Bonaventure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14104" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T20:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The soul can't intrinsically change in that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think that we desire to know God by our nature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*in his essence that is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas implies that in some sense in ST I.12.1</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somebody tell me about ensoulment! Where is Mr. Kenz?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He bloody well does not!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T20:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">kidding. But they are strange. I have heard many stories. Some from twins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I.12.2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Cum enim ultima hominis beatitudo in altissima eius operatione consistat, quae est operatio intellectus, si nunquam essentiam Dei videre potest intellectus creatus, vel nunquam beatitudinem obtinebit, vel in alio eius beatitudo consistet quam in Deo. Quod est alienum a fide. In ipso enim est ultima perfectio rationalis creaturae, quia est ei principium essendi, intantum enim unumquodque perfectum est, inquantum ad suum principium attingit. Similiter etiam est praeter rationem. Inest enim homini naturale desiderium cognoscendi causam, cum intuetur effectum; et ex hoc admiratio in hominibus consurgit. Si igitur intellectus rationalis creaturae pertingere non possit ad primam causam rerum, remanebit inane desiderium naturae. Unde simpliciter concedendum est quod beati Dei essentiam videant."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I.12.1</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You think the "light of glory" is on the order of nature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14115" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Si igitur intellectus rationalis creaturae pertingere non possit ad primam causam rerum, remanebit inane desiderium naturae."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, we naturally desire to know God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14117" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Unde simpliciter concedendum est quod beati Dei essentiam videant."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14118" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To jump waaaay back, Matthew J. Peterson "You can make Locke look like a number of different (even opposing) things depending on what you read of him and what part of context you are aware of." One can even make Locke look like he agrees with Aquinas!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T20:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting about Locke. That happens with aquinas. Interpreting into texts is a modern phenomena. We simply dont try hard enough to understand what an author means, compounded by the problem that many dont know what they mean themselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14120" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T20:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">as far as the ensoulment problem goes, I don't see how one can rationally take another take than delayed ensoulment. From what we know, biologically, of human generation it seems a huge waste of rational souls to create so many that will never develop.<br />Dr. Optiz on the bioethics counsel testified that between 60 and 80% of naturally conceived human embryos get thrown out with the monthly bathwater. If they are ensouled, and suffer the stain of original sin, then God appears a bit monstrous. I'm not asking anyone to gird up their loins like a man, but how does this make any sense if fertilization = ensoulment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MB. Good point. Good discussion. I am at a loss. It is a mystery but God is just. I dont worry about matters so hidden to us..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I"m not sure who makes Locke look like he agrees with Aquinas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure whomever it was was at TAC Matt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought that was a reference to the Lockistotle dustup</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-05T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-05T20:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No kidding John ßwenkler. It's funny how these scholars of Aristotle jump right over his errors and head straight to the modern eugenic scientist for explanations about the human soul. They don't do dogmatic theology. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception might be something they keep in a shoe box somewhere, but they certainly don't study it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ahh but Strauss on the other hand MP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Respondeo dicendum quod impossibile est quod aliquis intellectus creatus per sua naturalia essentiam Dei videat." I.12.4</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Sed intellectus noster vel angelicus, quia secundum naturam a materia aliqualiter elevatus est, potest ultra suam naturam per gratiam ad aliquid altius elevari." I.12.4 ad 3</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nouvelle Theologie aside, the question is, could a created intellect have perfect beatitude in attainment of something less than God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14130" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, what do you make of Q.D. de veritate q 14, a. 3</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Aliud est bonum hominis naturae humanae proportionem excedens, quia ad ipsum obtinendum vires naturales non sufficiunt, nec etiam ad cognoscendum vel desiderandum; sed ex sola divina liberalitate homini repromittitur;"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what nature lacks, God supplies. By nature we cannot attain our natural end. Was it so in Eden? [ To the previous quotes, Joel. I am not sure I understand the last.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14133" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, you are aware that there is a science of living things, right? and that science is called Biology? And it makes the faithful look like absolute jackasses if they don't understand it and speak in enthymemetic syllophor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14134" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Additionally, Scott it is easy to talk trash, but less easy to, say, define "conception" which you have failed to do in any meaningful non-metagismic way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14135" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott--I'm still nct convinced that the IC requires us to say what everything you want us to--then again, I'm not exactly sure what you take the dogma to mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14136" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#metagism gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there are a few things that are clear in human development:<br />1: there is fertilization<br />2: there is ensoulment<br />3: the first is a biological act, the second, divine.<br />after that you lose me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially since uncritical defense of the IC could result in saying that Mary doesn't need the Passion to be saved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that and uncritical defense of various poorly understood things leads one to being a flat earther. <br />Do we have pictures of Scott in a tinfoil hat?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, depends what you mean by "ensoulment": before the rational soul there is already a vegetative soul and probably a sensitive soul, on the hypothesis of delayed ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14141" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Stouffer" data-date="2014-09-05T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Stouffer at 2014-09-05T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">RE: Human development...they drive in a way to truly irritate me ALL THE TIME!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least, both vegetative and sensitive souls are both the kinds of things that are proportioned to natural causes while the rational soul requires a divine cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm referring to "ensoulment" as that point in time in the development that a rational soul is placed in matter. (I hate "informed" as a philsophic term)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">see above</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Placed in" runs the risk of sounding Plartesian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14146" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I agree that "informed" is pure jargon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as regards 'vegetative' or 'animal' soul, sperm have DNA and move, are they living or parts of something living?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see any reason to deny Aristotle's view that the sperm is an instrument of the father.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that means it is a distinct, incomplete, living thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what would a distinct, incomplete, animal soul be like?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's purpose is to dispose the egg to receiving a human form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, living is said there equivocally, surely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't think so, except in the way "living" is equivocal between plants, animals and men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we could ask similar questions about the egg. otherwise petri dish fertilization wouldn't be possible</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the accounts of both are parallel (and actually don't necessarily contradict Aristotle's view)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14157" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">at least if one abstracts from niggling details</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that they are parallel, but I'm not sure that Aristotle's account gives us the proper distinctions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14159" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has to be "alive" in some sense. But not in the way a complete living thing is, which reproduces others of its kind, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^so what "form" does that have^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you read Generation of Animals? I think it's position is defensible in the main.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, it's been a while....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, a form similar to what a separately existing human cell has.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but different too, I suppose</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14166" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah: the transitional forms in generation are intrinsically ordered to the final human.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14167" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley--you mean like, if a skin cell was kept alive in a petri dish, what form would it have?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The form in the separated cell, of itself will not survive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was there a lockistotle dust up in these circles? What precipitated it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14171" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Similarly, with the sperm and the egg, right? My biology may be off, but they don't really have the nutritive faculty once they've been developed, do they?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">way to change the subject Peterson. jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14173" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you shared Seagrave or someone talking about how Locke's political philosophy is compatible with Aristotelianism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what does "nutritive faculty" even mean with regard to cells?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, the sperm and egg have to have the nutritive faculty in some sense, because their nature is to cause something human to come to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">other than one-celled creature that eat - hi amoeba!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14177" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then threw a fit when it was criticized. "He was taught by Straussians! He was taught by Lavalians! Don't you think he already understands your feeble objections!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14178" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, cells eat too: they take in sugar and give off other chemicals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sort of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(202, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mostly though, it is about counter-trolling the troll. Your own motto is "always be trolling" after all! }:-)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They also regenerate things similar in kind through cell division.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other part of the nutritive faculty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">again, sort of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's no "sort of" about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael--I was thinking what Edward was saying. Most (though not all?) cells can take in nutrition from the blood. Certainly living things considered as whole organisms can. Sperm and egg can't, until the egg gets fertilized and implanted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14186" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is a "sort of" if you're talking about parts of a whole.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But they participate in a higher faculty of the nutritive soul, reproduction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">otherwise you couldn't go from zygote to animal with distinct parts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14189" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the cells "regenerated" are of different types from the beginning cell. So.... sort of</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That wasn't what I was thinking of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was thinking of skin cells reproducing to form skin cells.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I was thinking of them existing separately from the body. . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why talking about cells opens a huge can of worms. How do you get from sperm+egg to skin cells, muscle cells, heart cells......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is that microbiology is posterior to macrobiology in the order of knowing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fair enough. I don't think we necessarily disagree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stem cells seems to be more like equivocal causes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so saith DeChronic Joel)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which are the instruments of the animal's soul to form all the parts of the animal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">instruments that possess the higher functions of nutritive souls, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14200" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or do they only possess them in virtue of being a part of that thing that has an animal soul?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or both?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aurelia finally succumbed to Berquist's sleep inducing voice. I fear I will follow not far behind. Of course, his voice is sleep inducing because it is soporific.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They only possess them in virtue of being parts because they don't have proper forms while being parts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's opium Joel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, when separated, their quasi-forms retain the ability to main existence for some time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially if aided by art.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so a cell that is part of an animal doesn't have a proper form, but if we separate it then it gets a form, properly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14208" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Berquist's voice is classified by the DEA as a class I opiate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14209" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suffered through junior theo and soph phil. I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorta.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sounds a little like a dodge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14212" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T21:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah, I object to cartoon objections - he doesn't claim Lockistotle - perhaps one might argue that what he says amounts to such if one grapples with his argument.<br />People were laying out the ridiculous jump to conclusions mat that day, bringing out objections that only an idiot would never have considered, regardless of whether or not one agrees with his conclusions.<br />But such is the internets: your complicated book gets summarized in an article and then the article gets posted and then people make comments based on the headline.<br />But the Lockistotle debate is usually had in other circles...<br />I finished my review, and thus far they say it will be published later this fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think its a dodge, when I say "sorta" I mean the form can't really maintain existence in the way a form should.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14214" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but if aided by art, how does it continue except by virtue of its own form</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, people read the article and found it unconvincing for obvious reasons and it pissed you off b/c you want everyone to cheer wildly for "innovation" so that we aren't a backwater school. I mean, I know bugger all, so don't take what I say seriously, but if the objections were so handily dismissible, you could have engaged with their substance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, I'm not trying to be difficult (atypically) but all this applies to human development, generation and ultimately what we understand when we profess the dogma of the IC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do admit that the book may very well have been (and probably was) more meaty. That doesn't make the article more convincing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going waaaay back-- I don't know about the "stained with original sin" aspect of the equation, but I don't think it's a very solid argument against personhood from conception to point out the high percentage of early miscarriages. It's only very recently that the majority of children survived childhood. Do we say that makes God a monster? seems like an analogous case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14219" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The reason I call it a quasi-form is not because it acts like a real form nor because it isn't a real form (for some value of "real"), but because it isn't the form of a being complete in itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the headline was juicy though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, children who died (in the past) were typically baptized. that doesn't happen to four cells that leave with the menstrual cycle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are Cajetan's commentaries on the summa available online?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, ok, in Christendom, sure. Millions of children have died unbaptized though. I'm not sure your objection changes the substance, just the numbers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/repedleo.html<br />Editio Leonina<br />CORPUSTHOMISTICUM.ORG|BY ENRIQUE ALARCÓN<br />September 5 at 9:40pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Joel HF Woohoo! Thanks Edward!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14226" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but if 60% (taking the smaller figure) die before the fertilized egg implants, that means much much more than any infant mortality figure.<br />If you think that 20% infant mortality is high, this is 10 times that many</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why would abortifacient contraception be wrong in the early stages then? Prior to full ensoulment? (I realize this isn't a real argument against, b/c I'm assuming what I should be proving.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14228" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because of the dignity of human life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks Ed, now I had to delete my long winded reply</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the transitional beings are human lives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm saying there is already a number that is impossible to accept comfortably, so the problem has to be dealt with whether we posit 60% of ensouled persons being miscarried or no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How does this not reduce to the MP's "Every Sperm is Sacred"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see a problem with that claim?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Every sperm is sacred"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14237" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What claim? That the sperm are little homonculi that mustn't be killed on any account?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not like I think that it's moral to use sperm for something besides generation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why does this always degenerate into sex? <br />NFP arguments? Anyone? Buehler?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14240" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">not my fault this time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's funny the path this particular conversation took Church dogma -> arguments about ensoulment -> sex</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The NFP conversation, at least, was a forthright conversation about sex.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Innate natural drives?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">now the conversation is getting all meta</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14245" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well...I still don't get ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14246" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">neither do I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the rest of them do either</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">they're pretending</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14249" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">as a Catholic, I've got this:<br />CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been trying to explain this to you </p>
</li>
<li id="post_14251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only James Brown can truly tell us what ensoulment is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14252" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T21:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is hard to reconcile with more than half of people not getting the chance to be baptized. <br />which is why I think delayed ensoulment is the more rational choice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can't you do some kind of baptism of desire stuff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard Catholics make a lot of hay with baptism of desire</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that's possible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, in the main, it's all speculation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not going to dig up the article, but the comments and objections were ASSume city, ridiculously put, and not worth responding too. <br />It wasn't clear from the article what his response/argument was/would be, or whether or not it was correct: but it was clear he was well aware of the objections made by people with far less professional interaction with said objections than he's got under his belt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T21:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That still leaves all the non-Christians out in the cold. I mean, China still largely hasn't been proselytized, just for one instane.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14259" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Officially" Baptism happens in three circumstances:<br />1. Ordinarily: through water<br />2. Extraordinarily:<br />2a. If a catechumen dies while intending to become a Christian<br />2b. If a catechumen is martyred.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The latter two are "Baptism of Desire" and "Baptism of Blood".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not being a Catholic, I can just be all "I trust God's mercy. No need to worry about unbaptized babies."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the chatechism mentions that non-Christians who sincerely seek God and try to do his will may be aved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or something like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreeing with Seagrave of TAC and ND on the public discourse is not going to change our backwater status. Hah. I cheer for people out in the ring wrestling with ideas - I still think the jury will be out for a while (and for me as well) as people argue with him more over time and he's forced to deal with objections.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14265" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, I don't think God is limited to the sacramental order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14266" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-05T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-05T22:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I got soul ... and I'm superbad."<br />http://youtu.be/LJ9CLOEOB5U<br />James Brown - SUPER BAD !full length!<br />********Funk Power******* 1970 -A Brand New Thang- for educational purposes only<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't Seagrave the one that argued that our common experience rules out evolution?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/05/9954/<br />Evolution and the Eye Test<br />Darwin’s evolutionary theory rests on a problematic premise: Our senses don’t tell us the truth about nature.<br />THEPUBLICDISCOURSE.COM<br />September 5 at 10:02pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley I guess, he's a little more nuanced than that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14269" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catechism mentions it, but then you have dozens of much more magisterial statements, such as the one Beitia quoted above, saying baptism and the Catholic church are necessary and exclusive means of salvation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, but the difficulty is interpreting what "baptism" means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Baptism of Desire comes from the Fathers, and Baptism of Blood is implied by the feast of the Holy Innocents: none of whom were baptized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah - profoundly disagree with that one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T22:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I look forward to Joel HF 's review of my review!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If "Baptism" just means the conferral of sanctifying grace (which ordinarily occurs through the sacramental order), then there is no problem affirming the Canon Beitia quotes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14275" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:07:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, here's the money quote: "After all, some serious philosophers—most notably Aristotle, Aquinas, and Locke—think that all of our knowledge of the world comes initially through our senses." LOCKISTOTLE! J'ACCUSE!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Baptism of desire and blood are surely the teaching of the church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um. No. That's jest true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14278" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catechism gets into more controversial ground. Not that the CCC is wrong, just that (at the very least) this is still open for debate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14279" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll expose your esoteric teaching to the harsh light of day, Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is that, if God in certain circumstances saves people w/o using the sacramental order, it's not unreasonable to hope that he saves others w/o using the sacramental order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14281" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it parallels the way "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" has been interpreted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that's a very closely related doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yuuuup</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, the treatment of the Feeneyites indicates that that doctrine is to be interpreted in terms of the "invisible Church". i.e. all the baptized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14285" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">blah blah sentimentalist garbage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14286" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">blah blah rigorist garbage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14287" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Remember when the NYT was publishing articles about how limbo would be abolished any day now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14288" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the canon says baptism is necessary. "what do you mean by baptism?" really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, the canon doesn't rule out either baptism of blood or baptism of desire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone's in heaven but Hitler and Judas. It's all good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14291" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny how my various conversations on Facebook relate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14292" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A week or so ago, I was arguing against universalism and now I'm being accused of universalism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. . . "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" depends on what you mean by "church"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we are church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">every religion is also church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the Catholic Church has always affirmed the validity of Orthodox and Christian Baptisms as long as the form and matter are sufficient.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">atheism if lived authentically, also church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, at the very least, baptism is co-extensive with the church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14299" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To put aside my flippancy, what has that to do with anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So there must be a distinction between the visible church and the invisible church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, baptism is co-extensive with the church. The church has no (direct) authority over the non-baptized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is the "invisible church"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the validly baptized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whether Roman Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14305" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that's the distinction b/w the visible and invisible church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read Unam Sanctam again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14307" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, "church" does have a lot of meanings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">People who have divided themselves from the church whether it be by heresy, or apostasy, or schism, are decidedly not the "invisible church." At least, not as I ever heard the term used.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's like taking the St. Thomas article about the demons being subject to the kingship of Christ as saying that they are part of the church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, setting aside those that are separate due to sin, my definition is more or less accurate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(due to personal sin)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-05T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-05T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'm going to bow out now. Good night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What definition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to quote you, Ed:<br />Sure, but the difficulty is interpreting what "baptism" means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good night, Samantha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The definition I just gave (modified here): the invisible church is all the baptized who have not separated themself through personal sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14317" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All that are validly baptized (and living) are part of the church militant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, then why did you object "People who have divided themselves from the church whether it be by heresy, or apostasy, or schism . . ."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, the living are still visible, is my main objection</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Church militant / triumphant / suffering is a different division from the one I'm laying out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I'm dividing, it has to do with their public connection to the Roman Catholic Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, however the words are used, what I said still stands: "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" does not mean "only those who die in a state of grace who claim to belong to the Roman Catholic Church are saved".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14323" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It means "anyone validly baptized who dies in a state of grace is saved".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It isn't a division I've heard from Catholics before, not as you are using it. But your point about the validity baptisms of and by people the church considers heretics is accepted by all, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And "baptized", at the very least, can refer to the ordinary baptism of water and the extraordinary baptisms of blood and desire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">invisible = those in sanctifying grace<br />visible = all baptized Catholic pew warmers everywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14327" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I might be misremembering the Baltimore Catechism, but I kinda remember a picture of a boat with little ropes hanging off of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14328" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, but the old understanding of that would be that if an infant was baptized by heretics, he *would belong to the Church*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14329" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T22:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*desire (extraordinary)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14330" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, so do I. And I don't have some ultra-rigourist views, really. I just think people are too quick to have this idea that everybody is saved without struggling with the fact that for much of history this view would have been decidedly not a mainstream catholic view.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14331" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">depends on whether you're talking about the "ordinary" mainstream of the "extraordinary" mainstream</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that's not what I'm saying: what I'm saying is that there is space in Catholic doctrine for non-Christians and unbaptized infants to receive sanctifying grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^false</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^false</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not that they necessarily do receive sanctifying grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, how could an unbaptized infant receive sanctifying grace</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How did the Holy Innocents receive sanctifying grace?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14338" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Old law</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I think that it may be possible that where the parents desired to have the infant baptized with the same desire that a catechuman had (i.e., they don't plan on doing it "sometime" but as soon as humanly possible), then that desire can stand in place for the child. Just as the parent's/godparent's answers stand in place of the infants at the actual baptism. But I'm open to correction here, and don't think this is officially taught anywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14340" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^really circituitous</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's not why they're venerated as Saints, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14342" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">more Trent!:<br />If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,--whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">" Not that they necessarily do receive sanctifying grace" How is *anyone* getting saved w/o sanctifying grace? Isn't it need by definition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">still old law</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14345" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're misreading that sentence, Joel, it's not a statement about the necessity of sanctifying grace but a denial of a universal grant of sanctifying grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia--I do think that it is Church teaching (if not de fide, then close to it) that the baptism of blood is sufficient for salvation. Also, a firm baptism of desire, though this is taught later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That canon of Trent is beside the point, as far as I can tell, Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T22:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you said "unbaptized" anathema sit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, I see, I meant "not baptized in the ordinary way"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what does that even mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. didn't have water move over their heads.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">are they baptized with coffee?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, Edward, the CCC is decidedly ambiguous: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14354" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, they could receive the baptism of blood</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iff martyred</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#xi<br />Unbaptized infants - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism<br />One of the Seven Sacraments of the Christian Church; frequently called the 'first sacrament', the 'door of the sacraments', and the 'door of the Church'<br />NEWADVENT.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not trying to be any more definite than the CCC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14358" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC is not de fide</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never said it was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14360" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It still is an authority owed "religious submission of intellect and will"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14361" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">as promulgated by the Holy Father.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was responding to Joel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia--I know, I said that like 200 comments ago! I was just pointing out that it was also hardly clear on the point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14364" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">invisible = Joan of arc<br />visible = those who condemned her</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward--what of the cases where it clashes w/ other church doctrine also owed religious submission?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus, we see that sometimes God gives sanctifying grace even though the person wasn't baptized with water. Therefore, it is not a matter of doctrine that baptism of water is necessary in every case. Therefore, it's possible that non-publically-Christians and infants who never received the baptism of water somehow receive an extraordinary grant of grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I'd say the newer document supercedes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I'd guess that Kenz or someone has a more definitive answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14369" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^historicist^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14370" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC only recommemds hope. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">quiz: does that have the assent of faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Up there. it's a quote</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">re. historicist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14376" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">newer document? can never contradict older document and must be interpreted as such</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">only if both are de fide, or if the older document is de fide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if they are both matters for "religious submission of intellect and will", then they can be in contradiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14379" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In which case, I'd argue that the newer document stands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14380" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward is correct.<br />Baptism by water, desire and blood are all recognized. <br />If a catechuman on his way to the Easter Vigil is struck by a car, and you believe he will end up in hell because he was not baptized by water, that is not a Catholic understanding. God is not bound by the Sacraments, although they are His ordinary means of acting.<br />In the case of infant baptism, it is the Faith of the parents that brings the child to baptism (which is why it is licit for a Pastor to refuse baptism to a child if he is convinced the parents will not bring the child up in the Faith).<br />There was actually a commission looking into the question of baptism of desire re: parents who suffer a tragic miscarriage... since their Faith brings the child to the font, and they were only impeded from administering it by the mother's flesh which was in the way - could baptism of desire apply? I think it is a great question.... but I don't think it will be answered with much more than "we don't really know - but we entrust the child to the mercy of God, knowing His love is greater even than the love of the parents...."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14381" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">again, unam sanctam- de fide<br />again trent - de fide<br />again Lateran IV - de fide<br />the quote I just posted - de fide</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14382" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 97%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as your quote goes, it's from an encyclical: I'm not really sure about their authority. I think that they are not necessarily part of the infallible teaching authority of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again reread the CCC. It recommends nothing to faith, only hope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14384" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is all the more reason that it shouldn't be an argument stopper in this case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie, your example is absurd. really.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, none of the quotes you've posted contradicts my position in any meaningful ways: they just place limits on the circumstances in which my claims apply.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">catechuman on the way to baptism. that is the most cherry-picked of possible examples</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But its true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley--where did you get the invisible/visible church thing? The way you were using it seems much more like a protestant understanding to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Ambrose (?) references baptism of desire in connection with a catechumen who died in a shipwreck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but unhelpful because of the cherry-picked nature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, it's a hazy recollection of the Baltimore Catechism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael--do you reject the doctrine of baptism by desire? (At least, in that exemplar case)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is it unhelpful? Water is not necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14396" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and a stretch to go from that to unbaptized infants, simply</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think I've demonstrated that it follows from admitted propositions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14398" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes it is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I missed the demonstration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An infant does not consent to Baptism. The parents do. So much so that if the parent does not have faith, the child is not baptized. This is standard pastoral practice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">again. YES IT IS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How does that jibe with the Church's long acceptance of baptism by blood and baptism of desire?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14404" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aren't canons de fide?<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">to be fair, I'm not denying the *possibility* that others may receive the gift of sanctifying grace, but as John Ruplinger put it - that's a hope, not a believe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see now why you think my example is absurd. Because you want to believe that God is - well.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but one's understanding of them may not be de fide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">read canon 2 out loud to yourself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14409" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you have to accept the minimal cases of a chatechumen martyred for the faith, and also killed on the way to baptism. But I'm too lazy to go look up the texts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14410" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Michael, I think that admission means that we hold the same position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14411" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, you universalist leaning people want to make exceptions into rules</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I explicitly denied that it was a rule.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14413" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">then why talk about it? I think it is bad for evangelization</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14414" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">show of hands: converts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because, for one thing, sounding ultra-rigorist about Baptism isn't good for evangelization either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14416" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">why? It means I actually care about non-Catholics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Disagreed-Edward Langley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">with me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Langley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So who else besides me converted?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14422" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At TAC? (I converted in highschool.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's one thing to be clear about Church doctrine. It's another thing to present the doctrine in a way that conveys the impression that we know what happens to people who haven't received Baptism of Water.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is that "ordinary" know or "extraordinary" know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are now claiming that the Catholic Church does not care about non-Catholics, since baptism of desire and blood are both mentioned in the Universal Catechism.... awesome...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no Marie, that was a response to Ed's previous comment. I made no such claims</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So - why won't the Church baptize a child whose parents have no faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14431" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(One really odd case is the little boy Pius IX took from his jewish parents because he had been baptized. I don't really know all the details, or even if it actually happened, but it's an example that always gets brought up in similar situations).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara<br />Edgardo Mortara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Edgardo Levi Mortara (Bologna, Papal States, August 27,...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG<br />September 5 at 11:23pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley Pius IX's adopted son.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hard cases make bad law?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now you're stealing my line.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14435" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-05T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-05T23:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You should read Thomas Pink on religious liberty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. Hard cases help us understand reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14437" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i might be pissed if i went to hell when folks were so nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both are right, sides are right, Marie: but it's a general rule that hard cases should be left to the judge's prudence rather than codified in law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-05T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-05T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The preaching must fit the preached to, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14440" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">without pandering, however</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I am saying is that a homosexual activist couple who despise the Church but approach for baptism for their child (coming to a parish near you) would be denied - while the Church was examining the possibility that the daily Mass going parents who suffer a miscarriage after 3 excruciating weeks of bedrest may have obtained baptism by desire - and that seems utterly reasonable to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was once smashed over the head by a priest . . . .make it twice. I am forever grateful to him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14443" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael -- you misunderstand the anathema statement above. It is speaking of sacramental baptism. If you read it in that light, nothing that has been said about baptism of desire or blood is contrary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14444" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I base that on my knowledge as an RCIA coordinator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We jus do not know what happens to unbaptized infants. Never have. We do know that God is all just and merciful. Trust He knows what He is doing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie makes a good case. If the reason we baptize infants in the first place is because of the parents' faith, then it isn't much of a leap to say they also benefit from baptism of desire (at least in the case of children of parents of faith).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14447" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you are right to say we don't know definitively.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14448" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but that is speculation and hope. . . . . not dogma. That is my point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, what is non-sacramental Baptism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By blood and desire. They are outside of the norm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14451" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T23:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/embed/RhT51tmUE0E?autoplay=1<br />You are all WEIRDOS!!<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14452" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so.................. we're full circle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weirdos? What? Because we are discussing theology on a Friday night? Oh right. Maybe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14454" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T23:40:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was baptized as an infant by my fallen away Catholic parents and raised as an atheist. I converted in 2004 at the age of 33. I am very glad I was baptized because I believe that the graces I received led me back to the Church. I realize that this is anecdotal, but the TNET is the only thing I've got going at the moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14455" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">98. When an infant is baptised, he or she cannot personally make a profession of faith. Rather, at that moment, the parents and the Church as a whole provide a context of faith for the sacramental action. Indeed, St Augustine teaches that it is the Church that presents a child for baptism.[132] The Church professes her faith and intercedes powerfully for the infant, supplying the act of faith that the infant is unable to make; again the bonds of communion, both natural and supernatural, are operative and manifest. If an unbaptised infant is incapable of a votum baptismi, then by the same bonds of communion the Church might be able to intercede for the infant and express a votum baptismi on his or her behalf that is effective before God. Moreover, the Church effectively does express in her liturgy just such a votum by the very charity towards all that is renewed in her in every celebration of the Eucharist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^not de fide?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes! Aaron. What a blessing that you see it that way (I believe it to be true). But many are upset they can't celebrate the sacrament with their new awareness. They just don't get how without the grace latent in them, it might not have ever come to fruition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What articles are de fide to you Michael?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC isn't, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or was that clarified earlier?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No - it's the study I was talking about that was taking place when I was in grad school, and it was closely related to our study of St. Thomas on the sacraments, so we looked at it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can agree that an infant does not make a personal profession of faith, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course, with a caveat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14465" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CCC is certainly the teaching tradition of the Catholic Church. It can't be dismissed so easily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">if it is at odds with de fide teaching. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. I'll bite. Where?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">where what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang, I have a wedding program to print and fold yet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is the CCC at odds with de fide teaching?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14471" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET admits of no other hobbies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14472" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-05T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-05T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman et al - re the earlier convo about top tier schools:<br />http://www.newrepublic.com/.../harvard-ivy-league-should...<br />The Trouble With Harvard<br />The Ivy League is broken and only standardized tests can fix it.<br />NEWREPUBLIC.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you'll need to quote both the CCC article and the de fide statement it is contradicting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Do you reject satan?" I do! Shouts the 6 day old baby...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14475" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it isn't specifically, but I find people's quoting of CCC to support positions that contradict etc etc</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14476" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-05T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-05T23:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">10 years ago I heard about that study. It has been discussed for decades. Limbo for centuries. Trust that God really is good and it is all good. It is about Faith in Him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why did the Vatican publish the CCC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be optional teaching?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14479" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">beats me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was an invitation to read the intro.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14481" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">busy with TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had all my babies baptized within a week of being born - Teresa was baptized by Jeremy in the hospital because she was in danger of death. I'm really not a "free and easy with baptism or not" kinda gal... but I know that it is the parents who reject satan, and all his empty promises, and the glamour of evil, etc... on their child's behalf.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my oldest was baptized in an NICU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14484" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T23:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, they did it to taunt TAC grads who they secretly know are holier and wiser than they are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14485" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries".15<br />12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God. Through the bishops, it is addressed to redactors of catechisms, to priests, and to catechists. It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also find the part which says it should be considered the "norm"...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, I don't profess to be holier or wiser than anyone (except Hitler)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14488" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T23:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knoooooooowwwwwww.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh. I thought that was a shot across my bow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14490" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T00:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a displaced medieval. The Trent Catechism speaks better to my unupdated mode of thinking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14491" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T23:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard to tell when the TNET is ready for goofing around</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the Church is a living, breathing thing. One must be with the current flow of grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14493" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-05T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-05T23:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pope John Paul II ordered the publication of the Catechism by the Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Depositum, on October 11, 1992. An apostolic constitution is a most solemn form by which popes promulgate official Church documents. The new Code of Canon Law, for example, was promulgated by the Apostolic Constitution, Sacrae Disciplinae Leges. In Fidei Depositum, Pope John Paul II said, "The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion." John Paul II also stated that the Catechism "is given as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">goofing around and seriousness are one on TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-05T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-05T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread couldn't have gotten this far without a little of both (goofing off and seriousness)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14496" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-05T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-05T23:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My rule of thumb is goofing around is appropriate if that Scott guy isn't around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14497" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-05T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-05T23:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peace out all y'alll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will, now that I have my drink</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-06T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-06T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the longest break between comments ever on TNET? Is there a TNET archivist who can look this up?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I worry if it goes over 1 hour.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm 5,000 comments behind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's generally not advisable to discern sacred Catholic mysteries without a trained guide, or to mix that subject with goofing on social media.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-06T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-06T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So how many points is Michigan going to beat Notre Dame by tomorrow night?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The CCC was written to present "an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just started the Trent Catechism 3 months ago. Aint anathemized. And it does have more in it . Are you suggesting it is in error?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think eighteen hours, Aaron (at least, that was the longest before 9,000)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Above all, the CCC was published in support of the Pastoral principle of Charity: "The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By what authority was it promulgated, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not think ensoulment is a doctrine of the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone read the Trent Catechism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T00:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've referred to it before, but I haven't read it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14512" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T00:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Parts of it. I recall it has something of the same structure as the CCC, the Credo, virtues, sacraments, etc... but I could be wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T00:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Delving into dogmatic theology I find is more satisfying than the Catechism, to my mind. It ties in philosophy and in a sense shows you the mind of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14515" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-06T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-06T00:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel p. O'Connell we don't allow that kind of blasphemy on this page. Only the Catholic kind of blasphemy... No gold & blue blaspheming...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14516" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-06T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-06T00:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hail to the Victors!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T01:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How's it going Kunz?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14518" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-06T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-06T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/ZsHbCfgPA1c<br />Michigan vs Notre Dame "The Last 1:41"<br />Incredible Michigan win<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14519" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T01:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kunz, I've had enough of your crap for the evening; that's it, I'm done; I'm going to bed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, thank you for the article. I thought it well balanced and interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-06T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-06T02:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well....ok Jeff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14522" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-06T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-06T02:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Doing great, Jeff!!! You?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-06T02:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-06T02:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember that bs oconnell...preeeeety generous spot off that 3&2 qb draw... Haha that was amazing....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-06T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-06T02:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/825788.Shi_i_Islam</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14525" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-06T02:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-06T02:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another interesting book: http://cuapress.cua.edu/.../books/frontmatter/TACE.pdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14526" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-06T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-06T03:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Relevant to the ensoulment Q, one of those “outrageously provocative Bolin theses:” https://drive.google.com/.../0B1NKBnJwd.../edit...<br />And Man Became a Living Being.pdf - Google Drive<br />DOCS.GOOGLE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14527" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T04:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T04:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bolin's position is a rather extreme form of my own.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks pe, I got through 4 pages before I couldn't press the next page button on my phone. I'll have to read it on a computer. I like his approach but I haven't reached a point where there is a clear statement that in generation whether ensoulment is necessitated by the arrangement of parts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14529" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T10:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't believe I missed being in class with a Bolin. I think there were three there representing three different classes my Junior year....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14530" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Doing awesome! John... I've been keeping track of you via my spy network)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I came across a copy of the monthly budget of F. Scott Fitzgerald and his wife Zelda from their Paris days. It has three interesting line items:<br />1) Flowers $15<br />2) Wild parties: $90<br />3) Leisure: $8<br />Could we plot these items on a graph to show the relationship between leisure and wild parties? Are flowers a variable? Probably not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T12:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peter Edmund, I wonder what the Dominican or Church's position is on ensoulment. It seems to me there is no Catholic doctrine on ensoulment; but there is on Conception, ie. the Immaculate Conception. Is this accurate? I also find it disturbing when human cloning is used to support the "theory" of ensoulment -- this seems imprudent because it cites unethical science (human cloning) to support a theory and, in so doing, serves as a kind of support for unethical human cloning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14533" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T13:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, it isn't support for unethical science, more than a recognition that unethical science exists and forces us to reconsider the metaphysical implications of the physical world around us, in this case re: fertilization. <br />I don't think any Catholic on this thread would deny the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, but the Church in her wisdom hasn't set exact dates/times because this is a spiritual dogma, not one of biology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I am not sure if you had the chance to see the previous citation on human cloning posted by Edward Langley, but the gist of the article was that a natural identical twin and a human clone were the same thing. Do you think this citation, and the way it was presented, forced consideration of metaphysical implcations of "fertilization" or had any bearing on the discussion, or would you regard it as contentious? Thomas often cites unethical claims, but to refute them in classical dialectic context. <br />I am not sure how capable some TAC alum are of discussing these issues. <br />The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from "the first **moment** of her conception..." Hence, there does clearly seem to be a direct reference to time in the Dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14535" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T13:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger--Here at long last is a response to your fascinating posts on Virgil many days ago. (I apologize for taking so long to comment, but the start of school has kept me away from the Great Thread.)<br />You asked the following questions about Aeneas' sacrifice of Turnus: "Is he sacrificing to Pallas or rather sacrificing in Pallas' name to Pallas' FATHER and to that patria of Pallas that might have been or perhaps rather to Aeneas' future patria, Rome that will become?" I would agree with the last two suggestions, and especially with what you state immediately after your series of questions: "To put it precisely, Aeneas acting as Pallas is sacrificing in Roman custom Turnus, prince captive and chief spoil, to his father and the fatherland." But you and I would appear to differ concerning the justice of this sacrifice. I think Virgil wholeheartedly approves of it, whereas you argue that he may have had grave reservations.<br />Concerning the phrase that describes Aeneas' founding act, the planting of his sword in Turnus (ferrum adverso sub pectore condi), we both agree, I think, that it refers to the opening lines “dum conderet urbem” and Aeneas' duty to found Rome. But why sub pectore? There is a line in the last book of the Aeneid that may help make sense of this. When Virgil presents us with the alternating scenes of Turnus' and Aeneas' deeds (XII 675, 707), which culminate in their fateful meeting, Virgil recounts the death of Rutulian Sucro, who is killed when Aeneas "plunges his naked sword there where the end is quickest: right through the ribs, the grating of the chest" (XII 683-685). Virgil had earlier in Book X described Aeneas' killing of Liger as follows: "Then with his sword, he opened Liger's breast, in which the spirit has its hiding place" (X 826-827). Hence, Aeneaus gives Turnus the quickest death, suggesting it is not about personal revenge driven by wrath. Remember, too, that Aeneas is employing what Virgil has earlier called "the sword that deals out fate" (VIII 804). Given Virgil's reference to the place where the spirit hides, I would agree with your suggestion that Aeneas is also slaying the spirit of Turnus, though you and I may disagree about what that spirit is.<br />Certainly Aeneas' anger is intense when he slays Turnus, but it seems to me to be Virgil's depiction of the pious anger that accompanied Rome's founding. The anger, we both agree, comes upon Aeneas when he sees the belt of Pallas. Here I think your analysis is missing a key component. Depicted on the belt of Pallas is not the slaughter of just any fifty youths. The crucial passage that reveals the identity of these youths comes from Book II when the fall of Troy is recounted: "And I myself saw Neoptolemus, insane with blood, and both of Atreus' sons upon the threshold. I saw Hecuba together with her hundred daughters, and among the altars I could see King Priam, polluting with his blood the fires he himself had hallowed. And the fifty bridal chambers that had such hopes of sons of sons, the doors that once had stood so proud with booty and with barbaric gold lie on the ground. What fire cannot do, the Danaans can" (II 669-679). The fifty youths depicted on the belt of Pallas are the future of Troy, that is, the future of Rome. And note that it is the son of Achilles, Neoptolemus, who commits this outrage and who is later resurrected as Turnus himself, the new Achilles, who hubristically bears on his very person this horror of horrors as a trophy of war. For Virgil, the personal glory of Achilles, such as is was, reaches its nadir in the evil act of his son, who, but for the will of Jupiter, would have ended Rome before it began. Roman clemency, which you rightly point out is advocated by Aeneas' father as the future policy of Roman expansion, cannot be exercised here toward Turnus whose wearing of this belt signifies all that would stand in the way of Jupiter's plan to establish the right order of eternal Rome. <br />That is all I can address for now, but hopefully some of the above will be worth your consideration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In other words, I do not think St. Thomas would have cited unethical research on human cloning to score a cheap contentious point for Aristotle's flawed view of "ensoulment"; though Thomas and the Dominicans did deny the Immaculate Conception because of their doctrine of ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14537" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of faith, science?<br />I would not use the wording of dogma of the IM to ignore the topic of discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know you do not like dogma at TAC, but that is sophistry, which leads to a corruption of faith and science. I introduced the topic, Mr. Neill, as the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, because it is worthy of contemplation; not so that others would bring up human cloning to support the claim that ensoulment is scientific. Is it also not true that Thomas erred in this Dogma due to his adherence to Aristotle's notion of ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks. Jeffrey. That is helpful. Interesting that the depiction is not clear. I will certainly concede that the poet is at least ambiguous. Still can't detach it as a foreshadowing of Romulus. Thanks again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bolins do have an elegant manner of asserting provocative topics, who are we to refuse discussion?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T14:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, that cloning and twinning involve similar biological processes doesn't necessitate that they be ethically identical: as I mentioned earlier there is little to no difference biologically between normal generation and IVF, but that doesn't justify the latter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That reference makes more sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, you were using human cloning to support ensoulment which is a cheap contention. Plus, no one knows human cloning and identical "twinning" are the same. In fact, "twinning" is a flawed notion which implies one is twined from another. So, you do not know what you are talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14544" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^This argument doesn't follow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Scott, your arguments here are inappropriate to the dignity of church doctrine: in a hundred years, people who argue like you might be cited as "the second Galileo affair"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 27%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless I am missing several premises.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever you say, Daniel. Talk to you sophists and gnostics later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which argument, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott's argument that concluded with you not knowing what you are talking about doesn't follow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your contention that he should be associated with something like "the second Galileo affair" isn't helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am interested in knowing why this would be the case: "Plus, no one knows human cloning and identical "twinning" are the same. In fact, "twinning" is a flawed notion which implies one is twined from another."<br />Why don't we know this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pardon me if I am a victim of 'pop science."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This seems like a reasonable argument to me, Edward: "that cloning and twinning involve similar biological processes doesn't necessitate that they be ethically identical: as I mentioned earlier there is little to no difference biologically between normal generation and IVF, but that doesn't justify the latter."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14555" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is. St. Thomas always is concerned about the irrisio infidelium and Augustine shows us how important it is to show the complementarity of doctrine and natural science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It sounds like you are supporting Aristotle's theory of ensoulment because human clones and identical twins are the same. This is laughable.<br />Facts are stubborn things.<br />FACT: Mary was free from Original Sin -- body and soul -- from the *moment* of her conception.<br />FACT: Thomas opposed this dogma because of Aristotle's notion of ensoulment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14557" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cell division, replication and twinning are surprisingly similar. When one results in more cells vs. separate being is a wonderful topic for study.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14558" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not sure that that account of Thomas' rejection of the IC is sufficient. But let it be, for now. <br />Regardless, does the Church's account of conception necessarily align with a biological definition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14559" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">FACT: Mary was free from Original Sin from the moment of her conception. In her soul, not body.<br />FACT: calling something laughable isn't reasoning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">O, Mary, conceived without soul, pray for us who have recourse to thee.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, are you being intentionally obtuse?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14562" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the definition of conception something worth considering?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Beitia, I cannot imagine that even you would claim in jest that Mary, Mother of God, was Immaculately Conceived only in her soul, but not Her body. If this is what you are claiming, you are in error, and I sincerely urge you, in good faith, as a brother in Our Lord, to seek counsel from a holy priest on this matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only the soul suffered in the fall, not the body.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14566" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I tried, Daniel. I wrote something to the effect that fertilization is the biological act whereby the two gametes become one "thing" whereas conception is the activity of God in each human's particular creation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure it is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott is right to say that the effects of original sin affected both soul and body.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope, just the soul</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm<br />CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception<br />In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary 'in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt…<br />NEWADVENT.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because persons sin, not souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Prayer of the Novena of the Immaculate Conception<br />Immaculate Virgin Mary, you were pleasing in the sight of God from the first moment of your conception in the womb of your mother, St. Anne. You were chose to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I believe the teaching of holy Mother the Church, that in the first instant of your conception, by the singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human and beloved Son, you were preserved from all stain of original sin. I thank God for this wonderful privilege and grace he bestowed upon you as I honor your Immaculate Conception.<br />Look graciously upon me as I implore this special favor: (mention your request).<br />Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from your throne in heaven turn your eyes of pity upon me. Filled with confidence in your goodness and power, I beg you to help me in this journey of life which is so full of dangers for my soul. I entrust myself entirely to you, that I may never be the slave of the devil through sin, but may always live a humble and pure life. I consecrate myself to you forever, for my only desire is to love your divine Son Jesus. Mary, since none of your devout servants has perished, May I too be saved. Amen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, then why do you die?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spiritually or physically?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait - pardon me?<br />How do you account for the Blessed Virgin's perpetual virginity (before, during, after Christ's birth) and miraculous birth if sin somehow tainted her body?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I was speaking of physically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because we are not aveternal beings, physical death is in our nature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She suffered the effects of the fall, hunger , weariness, pain etc</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think anyone was saying that sin tainted the Virgin's body.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man was not supposed to die.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is Michael saying then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Since by man came death."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14585" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is, by man's sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Animals suffer pain, but they did not suffer the fall, pain is essential in bodily function</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14587" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm saying the BVM got hungry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pain existed prior to the fall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and was sad sometimes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And she could feel pain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And suffer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not because of sin in her flesh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christ could feel pain too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14595" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No - you said she was free from original sin in her soul, not her body</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course Christ could feel pain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one is arguing against that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are talking about the effects of original sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good. Then the fall was not physical, this does not deny that miraculous acts may happen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know what you are saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14602" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point is that persons sin, not souls. Persons are body and soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mary was preserved from sin, body and soul:<br />"The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes that's what I said. What I mean is that She was preserved from original sin, it wasn't taken away. Her soul didn't suffer the effects of original sin, but her body did. THat's it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14605" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14606" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Angela Lessard" data-date="2014-09-06T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Angela Lessard at 2014-09-06T14:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church teaches both that all of creation fell in some way, and that though Mary and Jesus were without sin in body and soul, they suffered the effects of a fallen world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pain in childbirth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unfallen in a fallen world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was saying that the body does not suffer in the fall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes it does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup totally natural to have pain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not death.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not disease.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No - no - no. Virgin birth. Dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14615" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie, IDK. All I know is that she was virgin perpetually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"like light through glass"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I argue for pain and all existed prefall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14618" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Unlikely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But death for humans certainly only came through the fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like to believe physics pre and post fall are the same</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes. Rational souls are immortal and joined to bodies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14622" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dogma of perpetual virginity = virgin before DURING and after birth.<br />Christ passed through her miraculously - like light through glass.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spiritual death</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14624" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Physical death</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie, are you denying that the BVM suffered physically?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup I believe physical death would have occurred if the fall didn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">at any time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That which has a beginning has an end</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am pretty sure that position is condemned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Possibly... At any time accidents happen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz? Do you know?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14632" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am saying that pain in childbirth is one of the curses of the Fall - as is death. See Genesis 3:12 on. And it is a dogma that Mary bore Christ miraculously - that she maintained her virginity before, during and after birth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14633" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel:<br />. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14634" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but giving birth isn't the same as intercourse (technically)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is that from?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about: since death is necessary (since all things that start stop) that the fall was necessary and unavoidable, since it is not possible to exist perpetually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Thanks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14640" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Correct - it is not. She remained "physically intact" (impossible during normal childbirth)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Genesis is not to be read literally</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is possible to exist perpetually. Just as my soul and the Blessed Virgin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff - I know how to read Genesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not saying, nor have I on this said that the birth of Christ was like the birth of mine - or your children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14645" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If by, "not to be read literally" you mean, the first several chapters are not to be read as though a precise history, then we are agreed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but the BVM suffered the effects of original sin, in the world, in her body. <br />She got tired. and sad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read the first several chapters of Genesis literally as in the genre of myths.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is her existence now the same as it was on earth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14649" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Marie and I are just trying to make sure that we are clear that the origin of her bodily suffering is not through her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Mary have a metabolism still?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, Mary's existence now is a glorified existence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If she wants to, probably.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christ ate fish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and bread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">after he was in his glorified state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mary could too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She just doesn't need to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Could or needs to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being glorified and all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Could.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, before the fall did we need to eat?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We did need to eat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Data is nt infinitely fast forgive slow replys</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14668" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Physically intact" what absurdity. Who cares if Mary had an intact hymen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Before the fall man was not glorified.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Through Christ we are glorified.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do, Samantha Cohoe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Genesis is not "myth" technically - the language is figurative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It further reveals something about her virginity and the birth of Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie. I would consider it in the genre of myth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14675" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">somebody bust out some St. Augustine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's weird.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would also consider it true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://college.holycross.edu/.../Augustine-Genesis1.pdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not myth. The Catechism is explicit in that regard. I'll find the citation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If by myth one means something that is inherently not true, then no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">obviously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's irrelevant to her virginity and makes the birth of Christ cartoonish</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If by myth one means a story that is meant to explain things that are beyond human experience or understanding, using figures and images in order to explain the current state of things, then yes it is in the genre of myth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is irrelevant?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14686" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ancients considered an intact hymen to be essential to virginity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This "physically intact" nonsense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, you call it that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I don't see why it must be nonsense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or cartoonish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well - that "nonsense" is dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly Christ had the power to pass through material barriers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without disrupting said barriers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chapter 20 and 21 of that work by Augustine.... Let it nourish your soul, but don't try to replace science. (Extreme paraphrase)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He also chooses to "hide" under the appearance of bread....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without Faith, Catholicism is ridiculous. With Faith, it is astounding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14697" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't Augustine speculating on Genesis by his admission?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14698" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, Scott was right when he said that the BVM was immaculately conceived in soul and body. She was conceived (whenever that happens) as a person, immaculately. Thus the Church has defined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Genesis is allegorical, certainly. For example - the use of the word "days"... the sun is created on day 4. We are obviously not talking about 24 hour periods. However, it is not "myth". <br />CCC - "289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. the inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. Read in the light of Christ, within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the Church, these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the "beginning": creation, fall, and promise of salvation." <br />Note - it says "the truths of creation". That is not an accidental use of the term at all. Read the CCC on the 4 senses of scripture and different literary forms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ancients were confused</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14701" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Possibly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14702" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And moderns are so enlightened</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or perhaps they had a valuable insight into something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like what exactly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moderns aren't confused. We now believe in evolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like the fact that God is interested in using physical signs, even if gratuitous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There was no need for them to define things thus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And nowhere does any modern believe that rationally souled people live forever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">With regard to the moral value of intact hymens, marie, moderns have a better read on things, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But God is interested in signs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, you are wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Blessed Virgin lives forever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, that seems true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rational beings were never intended to die.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is general to the point of meaninglessness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the clear teaching of the church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes... The subject may also be a how, which we don't understand</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, it is very important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"God is interested in signs" I mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially since Sacraments are signs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"may have had" - is that a dogmatic expression?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacraments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moral value of intact hymens? You are missing the whole point, Samantha. It is not a moral statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An untorn membrane is morally insignificant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14727" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">usually, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not necessarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Physical things are perhaps inadequate signs of spiritual realities. Nevertheless, God uses them. Often.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To say that an intact hymen is an essential part of virginity is to endow it was with moral significance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14731" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T15:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, Scott intended by saying that the BVM was conceived immaculately in body and soul was to say that conception and fertilization are the same. and in that respect he isn't necessarily correct, which is why I originally disagreed with him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things to do. Peace out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Samantha. But that is not what I am saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see, Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No Samantha. It is a necessary sign to show that the Incarnation was entirely God's initiative. You are reading some 21st century angst into this. "Mary’s virginity manifests God’s absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. “He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed.… He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures.”<br />Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 127). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and then you read my disagreement ahistorically. jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what way is the story of Adam and Eve mythical? In what way is the story of Evolution a foundational myth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14739" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Quia igitur virginitas dicitur per remotionem praedictae corruptionis, consequens est quod integritas membri corporalis per accidens se habeat ad virginitatem. Ipsa autem immunitas a delectatione quae consistit in seminis resolutione, se habet materialiter. Ipsum autem propositum perpetuo abstinendi a tali delectatione se habet formaliter et completive in virginitate."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14740" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 27%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please don't use the word "myth". Modernists use it to question the historical veracity of creation and the fall.<br />There are three ways to look at Genesis:<br />Fundamentalist interpretation: historical and literal. <br />Catholic interpretation: historical but symbolic rather than literal. <br />Modernist interpretation: nonhistorical and nonliteral.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IIª-IIae, q. 152 a. 1 co</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(note _per accidens_ doesn't mean "unrelated" but means "not essential".)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ST IIª-IIae, q. 152 a. 1 ad 2: "Ad secundum dicendum quod pudicitia est quidem essentialiter in anima, materialiter autem in carne, et similiter virginitas. Unde Augustinus dicit, in libro de Virginit., quod licet virginitas in carne servetur, ac per hoc corporalis sit, tamen spiritualis est quam vovet et servat continentia pietatis."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14744" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is mythos? What parts are mythical? Is it possibly nonmythical: can it be explained as historical and allegorical? Why is that an impossibility? Is that what Marie means?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">written before Marie posted. But people mean these terms different ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is historical and allegorical. That is the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium. These events: creation of human beings in the image of God, male and female, temptation, the original sin, the Fall, the curse of the Fall, the protoevangelium - all took place at a moment in human history - but the language describing these events (a tree... fruit... a serpent) are allegorical ways of expressing what actually happened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cannot read Genesis as creation myths. It is much unlike the other myths. Even with what modern science knows it can be understood historical. None can prove that men did not live so long. Much of paleontology is . . . . .problematic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14748" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The biggest problem with interpreting Genesis as a strict history. is that there are two different orders of creation listed. That, and Augustine never treats it as a strict history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does "strict" history mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take the tree as historical and symbolic as well. The fruit too. We are such literalist that we cant imagind that God can use real things as symbols. . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The catechism says that the tree represents the limits of man as a creature - limits he/she is not meant to transgress.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine was speculating. He said so, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14753" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, but he is basically the master of Western biblical interpretation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still don't know what "strict" history means. If we are talking "7 24 hour periods" then certainly it is not "strict". As I said before, the sun is not created until the 4th day.<br />Read Scott Hahn's explanation of the 1st creation account - realms and rulers, building the temple of the universe. Ratzinger's commentary on Genesis "In the Beginning..." is also excellent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine wrote three works titled "on the literal interpretation of genesis" once early in life, mid and late life, all end with figurative reading necessary. But the real topic is to discuss biology and physics pre-fall, my understanding is the world is the same and the nature of the soul changed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, that's not sufficient: the first creation account makes man last but the second creation account has man made first and all the creatures made and brought to him to be named.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14757" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T15:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, even if all "strict history" means is "gets the order right", which order is correct is a matter of interpretation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Therefore both cannot be literal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't matter much since paleontology can fill the gaps of knowledge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The two different creation accounts are emphasizing different things.<br />First account speaks of the temple of creation, with worship as the goal in day 7. Man is the finale - the high point. Second account deals with creation, male and female, the fall.... both contain truths - but different truths about different things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14761" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T16:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as the biblical text goes, creation could have been instantaneous an each account symbolizes the orders in creation via temporal imagery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Correct.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't quite agree with Hahn. Parts don't seem literal and that is fine. But the tree is connected to the cross perhaps literally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14764" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you read Hahn?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I defined myth very clearly above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think my account of myth has been around a lot longer than the modern notion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">missed it DL. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/3350<br />This is not Hahn himself, but we used this text.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14769" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"If by myth one means a story that is meant to explain things that are beyond human experience or understanding, using figures and images in order to explain the current state of things, then yes it is in the genre of myth."\</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that is a big "if" - and not how the term is commonly used by biblical scholars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also believe that mans rational nature is to be naked and habit (clothing) is essential to the works of a rational creature. Thus the 10th category is preserved prior to the fall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I am pretty sure that many biblical scholars would use the term that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me suggest that God wrote Genesis in a mode that is easy for all men to grasp. That no man could grasp the how as is pointed out in Job and elsewhere. I dont buy the primitive man myth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps Biblical scholars who are inappropriately utilizing a historical critical hermeneutic...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is not a fair argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like that def. DL. And read too hasty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14778" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T16:10:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">My recent status also applies to The Never Ending Thread. <br />Without TNET, like marriage, one is lonely. With TNET, like marriage, one is annoyed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is just an ad hominem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know any good Biblical scholars who would use the word "myth" when interpreting Genesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, now you do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe... but I haven't read any of your work, so I don't know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Vincent Terreri" data-date="2014-09-06T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Vincent Terreri at 2014-09-06T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope you think this is apropos: I don't think we should ever approach the sacred Text as a work of literature. There's too much reverence lost as soon as you start dividing the Text by genre and literary tradition. That's just my thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not trying to make an ad hominem argument. I just think using "myth" in this climate is extraordinarily unwise. You may disagree. That's fine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The account of myth that I gave above is very much inspired by research that I have done in this area. Jacques Maritain gives a good account of the use of myth in his "Degrees of Knowledge."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel Morehouse" data-date="2014-09-06T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel Morehouse at 2014-09-06T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because one should read the Psalms exactly the same way that one reads Chronicles?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie, I think, in general you are right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would not typically use the term among the uneducated or if I were unable to explain myself clearly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14789" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nevertheless, I think the term is helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14790" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T16:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr. Peterson, I'm getting wife heat for spending time on this thread... Do you have anything you can prescribe?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vincent, I think when approaching the Scriptures we must remember that it is the Word of God and word of man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vincent Terreri - your point is well taken. The Primary Author in the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth. The literary styles of the secondary, inspired human authors are important, though, I think - because Magisterial teaching says so, and we must discern the literal meaning before the spiritual... but often, genres are used to try to undermine inerrancy and inspiration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But to be fair DL, many scholars even do not mean by myth what you mean. A different word than mythos might be more fitting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14794" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">late again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14795" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps, John, but I have not found it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14796" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-06T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-06T16:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">15,014 not bad guys (and gals).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The main thing to keep in mind is that we read Scripture as a Canonical whole with one Primary Author. That is where typology comes in to play. Otherwise, typology would be impossible. But awareness of genres is helpful because we are not fundamentalists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14798" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it is the Primary Author who inspires the human authors to write everything He wanted written and nothing more. (According to Dei Verbum)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14799" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T16:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Signing off, folks. Thank you for the interesting discussion. God bless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14800" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T16:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff Neill: take long breaks from TNET and make sure she knows it.<br />Then return. Rinse. Repeat. Your experience will be more satisfying and you will keep the heat off.<br />Have faith that TNET will still be here and you will be rewarded for that faith. <br />Just remember to tag others into TNET each time you visit. Go forth and multiply.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14801" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say biblical scholars. There is a lot of confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. And St. Paul uses the word mythos or fabulas to signify false tales as opposed to true doctrine. Some big guns got my back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not just false doctrine but kids stories . . . . . . evolution anyone. How was Adam not the most intelligent even after the fall?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I often don't pay attention: but are people calling evolution a myth?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14805" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just me. . . . you heard it here first on TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I second that motion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T16:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What sort of fundies are y'all? No such thing? A century and a half of thousands of scientific conspirators? Set species just poofed into existence and don't change into other species ever? Young earthers too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14808" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-06T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-06T16:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bam.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-09-06T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-09-06T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm...When you say evolution is a myth, are you positing strict creationism as the truth (e.g., 6,000 year old earth, etc.) or are you referring to the evolution of man from an irrational animal as a myth? The former position is shaky at best, IMO, but I take no issue with the latter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A "scientific" falsehood that lasts a century and a half is a relatively short one, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-09-06T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-09-06T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For what it is worth, I find the concept of material creation unfolding over millions or billions of years, with man as the end, or crowning achievement, to be fascinating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14812" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T16:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ptolemy may have been wrong, but I wouldn't call his system a falsehood. <br />I'm not sure what you think is false though: genetics, paleontology, astronomy, biology, etc.? All of the above? The very idea of evolution? Our multifaceted approach to determining the chronology of the universe? Our analysis of genetics and bones and what used to be here on the earth? Etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the majority of scientists have never been wrong before. But the truth is many evolutionary scientists have given up on the theory. The difficulties are too great. Kolbe Creation has good work on this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find material creation unfolding over millions or billions of years into something evolutionarily more advanced to be inconceivable. It doesn't match with my experience. Things seem to devolve more than advance. And where are the half species? The ones on their way to being advanced?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14815" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T16:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The truth is that cutting edge evolutionary theorists admit they don't have the mechanics sorted out. They don't abandon the facts on the ground.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't buy the pseudo-Dekoninck "evolution is demonstrable" claim but I do think it's at least as worthy of belief as the crystalline spheres were to St. Thomas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14817" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-09-06T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-09-06T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things advance at their genesis and earlier stages, devolve later. But that doesn't preclude continued evolvement in nature even as other parts of it devolve.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14818" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T16:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm unclear as to why slow development is hard to accept while poofing specific species into existence is easy to accept. But really, I find it hard to believe anyone looking past fringe works written to the choir would not accept that our multiple methods of dating and what we've found of the past have changed our understanding of the universe, at the very least roughly speaking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, that is not the truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-09-06T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(70, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-09-06T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So because something is difficult, it is false?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T17:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">post got messed up there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are becoming less doctrinaire and moving into much more interesting territory that increasingly tends to stop short of the old, asinine "evolution contradicts teleology" routine, however. And they are looking into much more interesting territory that transcends ye olde natural selection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Insurmountable difficulties. But evolution is a religious tenet to question which will get you relegated to the fringe. Nice the way it works out. But de Chardin types. Well that's ok.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait until Scott gets back on here. This is one of his pet peeves with TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They won't allow Hugh Owen (Kolbe Centre) to speak on campus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think Hugh has some significant things to say both scientifically and theologically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14827" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-09-06T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-09-06T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a recovering creationist, my observation is that much of Christianity is wary of any thought system related to evolution as it was successfully utilized in the past by others as a means to discredit the existence of the Divine. And it was done in a totalitarian fashion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14828" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Evolution is one of the major dividing questions at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14829" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Gerrity" data-date="2014-09-06T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Gerrity at 2014-09-06T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's right up there with democracy vs. monarchy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was shocked and scandalized by Warren Murray's take on it (God just decided to infuse a human soul into the fetus of an ape). But was surprised to hear that most tutors on campus find that to be a good theory. Seriously? Even if Genesis isn't literal, that isn't even in the spirit of the story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14831" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That doesn't address why there was 1 set of first parents (which we must hold). And frankly yes, I'd find it more dignified that a fully formed human adult came from mud than that the first parent was an ape.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, that is generally taken to be a decent theory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14833" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, the first couple is a particular and science is not of particulars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(are particulars)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14835" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The base argument was that 'creation doesn't take leaps' -- but the reality is that God does. Incarnation is a great example of a leap.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you account for death before the Fall?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only thing we're required to believe is that man had a preternatural gift of immortality before the fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14838" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's a place, I kinda remember, where St. Thomas seems to indicate that animals killed each other before the fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In any case it is an hypothesis at best, one that doesn't interest me much but is treated as truth (much as Galileo held his opinions).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Often, the best we can do is a likely story: cf. the crystalline spheres.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-06T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-06T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">off to a wedding. But I trust you to carry on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14842" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do y'all hate your bodies and their obvious similarities to animals and primates? Rational animals.<br />I think Hugh is a well intentioned guy, but I'm glad that don't allow him to speak on campus. It's simply head in the sand nuttery to dismiss all of modern science and hold to young earther dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do think they could or should have Hugh on campus in the context of a debate. That'd be healthy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14844" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Problem with infusing a soul in an ape fetus is that ape fetus matter is not proportionate to a rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whaaa...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then, if you say that God proportioned the matter to the soul then you might as well say that it was from mud, or slime because that iss just as easy for God to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14847" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, because that would be ignoring the evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Science is of universals, we don't have evidence of the generation of the first couple.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mind you, I have no real problems with evolution in many respects, but certainly in the case of humans it is insufficient to explain our origins in any sort of exclusive manner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14850" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, as far as I can tell, the scientific evidence points against a first couple via human genetic diversity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geneticists have pretty much shown that all currently living humans come from a genetic Adam and genetic Eve.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">who lived several thousand years apart</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How in the universe do you know what matter is proportionate to a soul?<br />I suppose it's just a slight tweaking of the mass of genetics we share with the animals, especially some animals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14855" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T17:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Lack of experience diminishes our power of taking a comprehensive view of the admitted facts. Hence, those who dwell in intimate association with nature and its phenomena grow more and more able to formulate, as the foundations of their theories, principles such as to admit of a wide and coherent development: while those whom devotion to abstract discussions has rendered unobservant of the facts are too ready to dogmatize on the basis of a few observations." (Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on De gen. et corrupt. I, 2, n. 25)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14856" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe, Edward: http://www.nature.com/.../genetic-adam-and-eve-did-not...<br />Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time<br />Studies re-date 'Y-chromosome Adam' and 'mitochondrial...<br />NATURE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, Cats never give birth to non-cats.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dogs never give birth to non-dogs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank God we have millions of increasingly sharper and better observations as time goes on as well as exponentially increasing abilities to observe the past...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Humans never give birth to non-humans.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhaha...thanks for letting me know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14862" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Glad we are clear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Non-human matter is not proportionate to human souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is why non-humans don't give birth to humans.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Techinically, man is not generated by man according to the rational soul either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But man generates matter that is proportionate to receiving a rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is the point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not that I would simply correlate genetic Adam with scriptural Adam, anyway.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14869" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, genetic Adam is probably Noah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_14871" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T17:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And according to Aquinas, generation only implies similarity in kind: but that can be generic kind and not only specific kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with this.^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14873" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T17:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Polar bears can give birth to pizzly bears. Wolves are mating with Coyotes and creating a whole new species of Coyolves. Wolyotes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is very hard to distinguish species.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14875" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://evolution.berkeley.edu/.../VC1fEvidenceSpeciation...<br />Evolution 101: Speciation<br />Speciation in action? In the summer of 1995, at least 15 iguanas survived Hurricane Marilyn on a raft of uprooted...<br />EVOLUTION.BERKELEY.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That one doesn't have a cool a ring as Pizzly bears.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Notice, Samantha, that I used the term "non-dogs," or "non-cats"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can imagine Cro Magnon matter being pretty well fitted to receive human soul</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://education.nationalgeographic.com/.../speciation/...<br />speciation<br />Encyclopedic entry. Speciation is how a new kind of plant or animal species is created. Speciation occurs when a...<br />EDUCATION.NATIONALGEOGRAPHIC.COM|BY NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SOCIETY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14880" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T17:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, nobody thinks humans evolved from apes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Good. I can infer from that, that everyone agrees with me, then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because that is the only thing I have been arguing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good articles, Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://news.nationalgeographic.com/.../080421-lizard...<br />Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island<br />Italian wall lizards transplanted to a tiny island near...<br />NEWS.NATIONALGEOGRAPHIC.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.the-scientist.com/...<br />Red fish, blue fish, speciation? | The Scientist Magazine®<br />Capturing the eye of a potential mate is the first step in...<br />THE-SCIENTIST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://evolution.berkeley.edu/.../090301_cichlidspeciation<br />Sex, speciation, and fishy physics<br />Holding a prism up to a bright window demonstrates a basic principle of optics that the plain white light radiating...<br />EVOLUTION.BERKELEY.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't get the point of the articles?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have already done lots of reading on evolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lots.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See the section on speciation: http://users.rcn.com/jkimb.../BiologyPages/P/Polyploidy.html<br />Polyploidy<br />Cells (and their owners) are polyploid if they contain more than two haploid (n) sets of chromosomes; that is, their chromosome number is some multiple of n greater than the 2n content of diploid cells. For example, triploid (3n) and tetraploid cell (4n) cells are polyploid.<br />USERS.RCN.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14891" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the point?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think speciation happens or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course I do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you read the arguments that I made?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14895" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not everyone here does, and your comments about birth didn't give that impression. You realize, of course, that Samantha's comment above simply means that Homo Sapiens are related to species that seem to be advanced variants on a primate theme - but not apes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14896" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T17:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I didn't - you want me to read what you and others say?!? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_14897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dogs don't give birth to "non-dogs"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not say that Dogs only give birth to offspring that is, biologically speaking, identical in species.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14899" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A racoons and bears really all that different? I have no idea. If someone told me if a racoon and a bear had the same ancestor, I wouldn't be very surprised.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14900" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">you guys are crazy. everyone knows the devil planted fossils to lead us astray and destroy the Church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14901" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey! I made the Diabolic Darwinist joke like 1500 comments ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14902" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the earth is only 6000 years old. Do you even know how big a billion is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now. if someone told me that a rainbow trout and a giraffe had the same ancestor, I would find that harder to swallow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">all depends on how far back you go.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn it Michael, don't be a fool. It is 7,000.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14906" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pre-cambrian stuff is pretty strange</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14907" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^heretic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always go back to turtles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's turtles all the way down</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14910" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_14911" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T17:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church has never taught that Creation occurred in 6 twenty four hour periods, 6000 years ago. However - she teaches infallibly that we have 2 first parents - male and female.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T17:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The earth is flat and the center of the flat universe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14913" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">discworld!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14914" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Flat in 4d spacetime? Or flat like construction paper</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14915" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course Marie, otherwise we have no original sin etc.etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The universe is round in the center of a flat earth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14917" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T17:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Flat in time cube http://www.timecube.com<br />Time Cube<br />The ONLY Official Site For Gene Ray/TimeCube. Need Help - Donate to Timecube/Gene Ray at PayPal...<br />TIMECUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14918" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was more addressing to Edward than you, Michael - but thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was just agreeing with you <br />(testy TACer)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"><insert diatribe about TAC mannerisms here></p>
</li>
<li id="post_14921" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T17:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just a heads up, I'm gonna be back later to yell about that "virginitas in carne" stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14922" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T17:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel that was very arrogant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will be asleep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T18:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is what I do best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14925" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T18:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that and be right, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14926" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T18:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can yell back at me later. Adio.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffie where the hell did you find that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whoa! 15,147... A Thread in the hand gathers no moss!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14929" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are welcome Michael Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14930" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I quoted Aquinas because he denies the claim that bodily integrity is essential to virginity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14931" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Marie, I never denied that we had two first parents, just that it's hard to reconcile the first couple with genetic evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without resort to some kind of miracle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it is essential in the case of Mary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14934" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It might be essential to the dogma, but that is not to say that bodily integrity has moral significance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14935" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T18:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still think that genetic Adam is Noah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-06T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-06T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also need to go to bed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can you still think that, after all these years?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm also pretty sure that immortality of the person was a gift to man before the fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say you denied it Edward. Lots of things take a long time to reconcile. Thousands of years sometimes. And if it is something that would contradict Revelation, it would be hasty to cite it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why the Passion didn't necessarily restore it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The foxes and birds have holes and dens, but the Son of Man has no where to lay his head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I deny that before the fall birth was "like light through a window"... Also Noah may have been one person that survived "a flood" but I. Et that was just a regional affair and certainly in no way did it envelop the whole world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say it had moral significance. I said the opposite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see Edward is now the mystic expert on the Sacred Passion of our Lord.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just repeating Augustine, basically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the notion that if something is a necessary consequence of a certain set of circumstances, that set of circumstances cannot exist without the consequence existing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14947" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not say birth before the Fall was like light through a window. It would have been natural, but painless. Natural because Adam would have been the father.<br />When God is the Father, however, Mary's physical integrity is an important sign of the Incarnation being entirely the work of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not if it contradicts Catholic dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus dogma is there to help illumine and make our arguments more reasonable and beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus rationality requires that man be naked and act to clothe himself. (Whether or not the fall) since rationality necessitates imperfection of form and perfection to be situational to the work of reason. Thus the hammer is part of the man as an extension of his being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man gave names to all the tools in his tool belt?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I miss Peregrine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14953" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, what is contradicting what dogma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If a certain set of circumstances necessarily implies a certain effect and if that set of circumstances exists, the effect cannot contradict dogma, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where did the new, kinder, gentler Scott go? did anyone see him leave?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Before the fall, prelapsarian man had an infused relationship with God and a special relationship with nature and the animals. After the fall, while man retained some dominion over the animals, animals are used by God to help bring man back towards the path of salvation. Consider the talking donkey in the Old Testament who directed the prophet Balaam back to the path of God, and the Sparrow or the Camel which Christ uses to teach lesons about wisdom, virtue and salvation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14957" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record: I did not claim physical integrity (virginity) had moral significance. Samantha said I was implying it re: the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin - and I claimed her suggestion was rooted in 21st century angst.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, where did that come from? and how is it relevant to anything I said?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14960" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-WPlvZguZ4<br />What in God's holy name are you blathering about?<br />New shit has come to light ...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A broken hymen is not a moral issue, Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not you, Scott. and yes, it isn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hit wth before your comment appeared</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I quoted Aqunas indicating that virginity does not consist in an intact hymen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha suggested that the dogma of perpetual virginity was a moral statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott refer to above video</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, in discussing the virtue of virginity, Aquinas explicitly says that an intact hymen is per accidens to virginity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14968" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mary's perpetual virginity is dogma, I believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14969" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward - you are missing the point. Virginitas in partu is intact hymen during childbirth - which is dogmatic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blather is also word that should be used more frequently. No, I meant slather, as in TX BBQ sauce.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Texas BBQ is awful. KC is better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia has bad taste, but we already knew that .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">KC BBQ has origin in jazz movement on 17th and vine. Lovely stuff. Generates much economy in this lovely city. Real unemployment rate here is 3%.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14976" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">perhaps there's something we can agree on? nah. probably not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mary suffered child birth and suffered seeing her child die</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, you've probably never had the joy of "fry sauce"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">KC BBQ is better than Texas BBQ because KC BBQ has deeper cultural context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14980" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like NC BBQ too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone move to Kansas City.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14982" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NC BBQ is very good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(215, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NC is beautiful state. Many good people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14984" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T18:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually - she didn't suffer in childbirth. Pain in childbirth is a curse of the Fall. Mary's Immaculate Conception meant no pain in childbirth and due to her role as Theotokos, she is a perpetual virgin. <br />Bye again....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, you've already admitted that you don't like Texas, so you're biased.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I lived there, so it is a familiar dislike</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny, I've heard of more murders in NC than in any other state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and the food in KC is really just better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">come visit Chicago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My parent's family lives in the Houston area . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(i.e. my siblings)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I passed through it a couple months ago, stayed long enough to drink a cup of coffee and drove on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my family still lives in Idaho, but I never want to go back there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd move to Houston in a heartbeat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't there the Aquinas school in Houston?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">UST?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">with the Center for Thomistic Studies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeag.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_14999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure, whatever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if they'd hire a Laval Thomist, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fake being Maritainian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15002" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T18:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">dinner time...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd probably have a better shot at the archdiocesan seminary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15004" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T18:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, are you from Idaho?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So the belief of Mary not suffering child birth pains is an interpretation of genesis as literal mixed with the belief of an intact hymen to a light through the window analogy? Is it not possible to not have an intact hymen and still be a Virgin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15006" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T19:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edit: It is possible to not have an intact hymen and still be a Virgin. (Your question was phrased oddly.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know re. the 1st. The answer to the 2nd is yes. The additional answer is that Mary's bodily integrity is dogmatically defined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nowhere on this page does it say "not experience pain". http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15448a.htm<br />CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Virgin Birth of Christ<br />The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son<br />NEWADVENT.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also while Mary "does not know man" before or after that does not exclude suffering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15010" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T18:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or natural child birth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you move to Kansas City, live in Johnson County Kansas. Low taxes. Good services. Awesome Bishop. Diocese growing. Governor is Good Roman Catholic. Pro-life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think New Advent prints some things sometimes which are not perfectly true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15013" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I'm pretty sure the "painless birth" part is just a pious tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, when St. Thomas gives counterexamples to the proposition that two bodies cannot be in one place, he generally gives Christ walking through the door after his Resurrection and the Virgin Birth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15015" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(not to denigrate pious traditions, BTW)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T18:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mary is Theotokos,<br />Mother of God,<br />Immaculate Conception,<br />Seat of Wisdom,<br />Morning Star...<br />Sing her praises!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a partial quote of Ott on the question:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15018" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Mary bore her Son without any violation<br />of her virginal integrity. (De fide on the<br />ground of the general promulgation of<br />doctrine.)<br />The dogma merely asserts the fact of the<br />continuance of Mary’s physical virginity without<br />determining more closely how this is to be<br />physiologically explained. In general the Fathers<br />and the Schoolmen conceived it as non-injury to<br />the hymen, and accordingly taught that Mary<br />gave birth in miraculous fashion without<br />opening of the womb and injury to the hymen,<br />and consequently also without pains (cf. S. th.<br />III 28, 2).<br />However, according to modern natural scientific<br />knowledge, the purely physical side of virginity<br />consists in the non-fulfilment of the sex act<br />(“sex-act virginity”) and in the non-contact of<br />the female egg by the male seed ("seed-act<br />virginity”) (A. Mitterer). Thus, injury to the<br />hymen in birth does not destroy virginity, while,<br />on the other hand, its rupture seems to belong to<br />complete natural motherhood. It follows from<br />this that from the concept of virginity alone the<br />miraculous character of the process of birth<br />cannot be inferred, if it cannot be, and must not<br />be derived from other facts of Revelation."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15019" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Revelation 12 <br />12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:<br />2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.<br />3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:<br />4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.<br />5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.<br />6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.<br />7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels:<br />8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.<br />9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.<br />10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.<br />11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of the testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death.<br />12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.<br />13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:<br />14 And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.<br />15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.<br />16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.<br />17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.<br />18 And he stood upon the sand of the sea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ott is cited here in greater length: http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/.../20%20mchugh%20and... but I think the first part of the letter endorses a heresy (it seems to me that it implies that Mary didn't need the Passion for salvation). Joshua Kenz would know better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When Mary travelled to visit her cousin Elizabeth, her footprints left in the soil were in the shape of lillies of the valley, as it is stated in pious medieval manuscripts; and during the Flight into Egypt, legend tells how the Holy Family was waylayed by robbers who stole Mary's purse only to find, after they had run away, it was filled with marygolds. Repentant, they returned only to find the marygolds hade been turned again into real gold whereupon they converted and worshipped the Lord.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, be rational and explain the relevance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Sicily, it is told that the Madonna's Juniper Bush opened its branches to shelter the Holy Family when Herod's pursuing soldiers drew near them as they fled to Egypt. The rosemary bush and clematis were also said to have sheltered the Holy Family during the flight into Egypt. The rosemary's fragrance arose after Mary hung her linens to dry on its branches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone is asking to be blocked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The alabaster white snowdrop became a symbol of Mary's purity and was called the Flower of Purification because it bloomed on February 2, the Feast of the Purification of Mary. In Italy and other countries in Europe the statue of Mary was removed from the altar on that day and snowdrops were strewn in its place. This day was also the feast of the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple. The flowers were called Candlemas Bells after the ceremony of blessing the candles began late in the eighth century and February 2 also became known as Candlemas Day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Veneration of Mary is highly relevant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-06T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-06T19:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just work up, and still have a lot to catch up. But her are somethings<br />1. Samantha Cohoe. The difference in ensoulment is that God does not pre-create the soul and "stuff it" in the zygote. Rather the soul is created with the conception of the human person, and, in the order of nature, it is posterior to it, though it may be simultaneous in time. The soul really is not something just crammed into the process. It is a term of generation. But if multiple souls are in that zygote, then we must abandon that view and view ensoulment as something wholly incidental to human conception, to natural processes.<br />2. Edward Langley and Joel HF. This seems a fair treatment of the question of the desire to know God. http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/reality.htm#08<br />3. Thesis, is Scott's ideas of ensoulment are correct, original sin cannot be. Even with St. Thomas the argument for how original sin is inherited is extremely difficult. This problem made Augustine waver between creationism and transducianism. The "ensoulment" cannot be something so extrinsic to the natural process of generation, which must precede it.<br />Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P.<br />We give here the chief characteristics of the knowledge creatures may have of God: first by the beatific vision; secondly by the analogical knowledge we must be content with here below.<br />EWTN.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-06T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-06T19:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the Marian issues, and the stupidity of citing Ott without actually citing him (seriously, supposed lists of dogmata without his actual text, explanations, citations?) I will have to comment later on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is impossible to reduce sacred dogma to rational debate and certain rational conclusion. It can only be understood as a reasonable mystery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is important to understand, however</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but the way to understanding the sacred is not the same as natural science. The understanding of the sacred is a reasonable mystery, and it certainly admits of pious myth and literary tradition, which to many seems more appropriate than the physiological descriptions of Ott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie's talk about the "physical integrity" of Mary makes me nauseous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And thanks for the Thomas, Ed. He puts it well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I fail completely to see how Mary's hymen staying intact through childbirth is in any way relevant to anything theological, including that the Incarnation is entirely the work of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you guys figured out amongst yourselves whether that weirdness is actually dogma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, I think I actually cited him: I gave the original source which included the page numbers and a longer quotation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seemed like you were leaning toward "no."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15038" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the reason for the intact hymen, according to Marie, was to be a sign that the conception of Christ was entirely supernatural.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15039" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T19:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ott (who is not the final word, but is a good reference point) was quoted above, and it leans towards no. But basically whatever "physical virginity" entails, that must be affirmed of Mary at all times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any old random weird miracle would fit the bill just as well, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15041" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I don't really know what is included under the dogma, and things the others said gives me pause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15042" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is Piux IX, in defining the dogma, but I don't know if it helps:<br />As if these splendid eulogies and tributes were not sufficient, the Fathers proclaimed with particular and definite statements that when one treats of sin, the holy Virgin Mary is not even to be mentioned; for to her more grace was given than was necessary to conquer sin completely.[24] They also declared that the most glorious Virgin was Reparatrix of the first parents, the giver of life to posterity; that she was chosen before the ages, prepared for himself by the Most High, foretold by God when he said to the serpent, "I will put enmities between you and the woman."[25]-unmistakable evidence that she was crushed the poisonous head of the serpent. And hence they affirmed that the Blessed Virgin was, through grace, entirely free from every stain of sin, and from all corruption of body, soul and mind; that she was always united with God and joined to him by an eternal covenant; that she was never in darkness but always in light; and that, therefore, she was entirely a fit habitation for Christ, not because of the state of her body, but because of her original grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does circumcision as the sign of the Covenant in the Old Testament make you nauseous, Samantha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15044" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">followed by St. JPII:<br />Her virginity "during and after giving birth", although implicit in the title virgin already attributed to Mary from the Church's earliest days, became the object of deep doctrinal study since some began explicitly to cast doubts on it. Pope St Hormisdas explains that "the Son of God became Son of man, born in time in the manner of a man, opening his mother's womb to birth [cf. Lk 2:23] and, through God's power, not dissolving his mother's virginity" (DS 368). This doctrine was confirmed by the Second Vatican Council, which states that the firstborn Son of Mary "did not diminish his Mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it" (Lumen gentium, n. 57). As regards her virginity after the birth, it must first of all be pointed out that there are no reasons for thinking that the will to remain a virgin, which Mary expressed at the moment of the Annunciation (cf. Lk 1:34) was then changed. Moreover, the immediate meaning of the words: "Woman, behold, your son!", "Behold, your mother" (Jn 19:26), which Jesus addressed to Mary and to his favourite disciple from the Cross, imply that Mary had no other children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The intact hymen is a particularly fitting miracle in two ways: (a) it nearly completely rules out sexual intercourse in the generation of Christ. and (b) it makes it so that Christ's birth involves a miracle only possible by the power of God: making two bodies be in the same place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JP II is always good and Ed you are being vulgar, profane and raining on the parade of sacred mystery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No more so than Aquinas in discussing these matters, Mr. Weinberg.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but neither pope speaks specifically to the question of physical "intact-ness", so I suppose it really doesn't matter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Aquinas was known for his purity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see the vulgarity, but more an examination of all possibilities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie, nope. the case it not analogous</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are not Aquinas, Mr. Langley, and you are way out of context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So only the female body nauseates you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope, we're talking about the virgin birth and part of the tradition is bodily integrity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, those "fittingness" arguments are weak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15056" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, never said they weren't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15057" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">can we go back to what we know?<br />1 perpetual virginity<br />2 free from sin from the moment the soul was put into the body</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15058" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The female body does not nauseate me. People thinking that natural childbirth is a violation of "physical integrity" do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But these details are subject to the will of God, so we won't have anything more than such arguments in these matters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you still holding that the Immaculate Conception was not immaculate in Her body, Mr. Beitia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does that mean, Papa Weinberg?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ does anyone know what Scott is talking about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15063" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I was merely disagreeing that conception is the same as fertilization, as I have said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But cutting off a foreskin is fine with you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think he knows what he is talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as Pius IX seems to agree with me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(more like I to him, in the real order of things)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the parallel you are attempting to draw?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-06T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-06T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Mr. Beitia, you do hold that Mary was immaculate only in soul but not body. I just want to know your position before backing out of this obscene conversation. To hell with you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, I never said that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, I just said that I never said that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is this: giving birth to the Son of God is not "natural childbirth". It is supernatural childbirth. That it would occur in an extraordinary way to highlight that point is not in any way denigrating to natural maternity.<br />I think your nausea is rooted in the fact that you see it as some kind of sexist thing - which is why I refer to 21st century angst.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T19:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Nauseous" is a pretty strong, bordering on dysfunctional, term to use</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">here's what the Holy Father Pius IX wrote:<br />Now inasmuch as whatever pertains to sacred worship is intimately connected with its object and cannot have either consistency or durability if this object is vague or uncertain, our predecessors, the Roman Pontiffs, therefore, while directing all their efforts toward an increase of the devotion to the conception, made it their aim not only to emphasize the object with the utmost zeal, but also to enunciate the exact doctrine.[6] Definitely and clearly they taught that the feast was held in honor of the conception of the Virgin. They denounced as false and absolutely foreign to the mind of the Church the opinion of those who held and affirmed that it was not the conception of the Virgin but her sanctification that was honored by the Church. They never thought that greater leniency should be extended toward those who, attempting to disprove the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin, devised a distinction between the first and second instance of conception and inferred that the conception which the Church celebrates was not that of the first instance of conception but the second. In fact, they held it was their duty not only to uphold and defend with all their power the Feast of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin but also to assert that the true object of this veneration was her conception considered in its first instant. Hence the words of one of our predecessors, Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: "Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul's infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception."[7]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I draw attention to the "first instant of the soul's infusion into the body"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which suggests the existence of some thing (body) for the soul to be infused into</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15077" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">now of course, you can hold that fertilization is contemporary with conception, and that's cool, I'm suggesting that one is the biological act and the other is a metaphysical act, only possible by the divine will</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15078" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T19:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and potentially separable in time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15079" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the separability in time is a necessary consequence of the rational soul not being generable by any power besides God's: the generative faculty has to have a proportionate object of itself for it to be an instrument of the generation of the person and that proportionate object cannot be the rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(the principle is that every instrument has an effect it produces by its own nature)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as well as an effect it produces by the power of the principal agent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15082" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I tend to agree, but I'm not wedded to the idea. I fail to see where I have contradicted any teaching of the Church that justifies a "go to hell"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15083" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marie-- let's recap. You claimed that it is dogma to hold that Mary remained "physically intact" through childbirth. All the actual quotes that have been produced from actual dogma affirm no such thing, but rather talk about Mary's perpetual virginity and incorruptibility. So, unless you want to claim that an intact hymen is necessary to virginity, or that physical childbirth is a corruption of the body, then you were just wrong about your original claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said "separabilit" not "actual separation", just to be clear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want to make a really weak argument about fittingness and admit it isn't dogma, or produce some actual evidence that your weird claim is dogma, then go for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're welcome for doing the leg work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes thanks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15088" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">someone has to dig up actual dogma for us to endlessly debate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">First Lateran Council:<br />"If anyone does not, according to the holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was begotten of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without injury, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you interpret "injury" - breaking her leg?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15092" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Giving birth doesn't injure virginity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">unless you want to make a weird claim about an intact hymen being essential to virginity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15094" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which I would find sexist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">part of my 21st century angst, no doubt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So when the Church specifically states she remained a virgin "during" birth, you think we need to be assured she was not having sex while she was giving birth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is absurd</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You quoted that she remained a virgin after the birth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No - the teaching is before, during and after. I have quoted it at least 3 times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15100" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">isn't "perpetual" the same as before, during and after?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ yep</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">beat me to it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and we all agree on that, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">???? Beat you to what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weeeelll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why even say "during"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15107" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">perpetual virginity, don't we all agree on that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably. I mean, I wouldn't have a problem with it if I reconvert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like to keep all this clear in my head, what I would actually have to believe, what I wouldn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">useful for reference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I tell you what, I'd have a pretty damn hard time seeing how it was necessary to my salvation to believe that Mary's hymen was intact after she gave birth to Christ</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This might be a bit forward, but would you mind sharing your biggest problem?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe if TNET starts showing real signs of winding down</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"ante partum, in partu, and post partum" is the teaching.<br />Why bother with "in partu"? Who would think someone would be having sex while giving birth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Natural child birth is made better by christ's participation in it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15116" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess as to the physical intactness, I see arguments for it, as Edward and Marie have given. But I also think that the "poof here's baby Jesus" is a little weird. I don't think any interpretation is necessary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe they're just being thorough</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still want an answer to why "in partu"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, do you deny it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's true even if it isn't making a very profound point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15121" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe "in partu" refers to birth not violating purity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I honestly don't know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, unless you want to assert that an intact hymen is an essential part of virginity, you haven't made your point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, isn't dogma supposed to be what is necessary to believe for salvation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15125" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that dogmas are divided into two classes: those which are simply necessary for salvation and those which are necessary to believe for salvation only because the Church has proposed them for belief.<br />I'd happily admit I'm wrong on this. But if I were wrong, I'd wonder how early Christians who denied the IC were saved if belief in the IC is necessary for salvation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did I get that right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I know is that nothing in the event that was the birth of Christ violated Mary's virginity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15128" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T20:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Personally, I've always been happy with perpetual "physical virginity." I thought the JPII quote above (wherein he quotes VII) was good. I don't think "physical virginity" has been dogmatically defined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, dogma is what is always all time true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the sake of going full circle, Man's rationality pre fall necessitating pain and clothing was my thesis topic. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aVvw-pusSLY<br />Adventure Time - FULL CIRCLE.wmv<br />FULL CIRCLE<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^my point^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are missing my point, Samantha. I personally would find it more concerning if giving birth was considered a violation of purity than if a physical sign was left to indicate a supernatural birth. I really don't know why this nauseates you..... but you are entitled to your nausea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW - I still don't understand why circumcision is no problem for you...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it a problem for you? I still don't see what connection you are making.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15135" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Marie, you keep arguing that virgin during childbirth has to mean her hymen wasn't torn-- which means you think a torn hymen is not compatible with virginity, which is problematic to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><<The difference in ensoulment is that God does not pre-create the soul and "stuff it" in the zygote. Rather the soul is created with the conception of the human person, and, in the order of nature, it is posterior to it, though it may be simultaneous in time. The soul really is not something just crammed into the process. It is a term of generation. But if multiple souls are in that zygote, then we must abandon that view and view ensoulment as something wholly incidental to human conception, to natural processes.>> But going back to this stuff, is what Mr. Kenz saying here compatible with the ensoulment view wherein the soul comes to be well after fertilization?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well - I think circumcision is not part of the New Covenant for a reason....<br />And no, no, no... you continue to miss the point. A torn hymen is not incompatible with virginity. However - if you wanted to stress the point about a supernatural conception/birth, it seems a logical way to do it, and it explains "in partu" better than a loss of purity through childbirth or sex during childbirth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said, if you want to make a weak, weird fittingness argument for Mary's intact hymen, go for it. But don't claim it's dogma, because then you're implying something completely different, given what the dogmatic statements actually say</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I read Mr. Kenz, it is perfectly compatible with that view, as the soul would then be the term of that generation and posterior in time, as well as in the order of nature. That doesn't mean it is posterior in time, but that would be the easy case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So the embryo is just mattered being prepared until ensoulment?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you want to say that "injury" more likely refers to a broken leg - so I will remain with the Fathers and Doctors of the Church who speak of "light thru glass" and you can hold your opinion. Cheers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to say that injury to her virginity cannot refer to injury to her hymen. But yeah, enjoy your "light thru glass" if that makes sense to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are very condescending, Samantha. You may not respect the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, but I do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I am condescending, sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think at this point, the most helpful resolution is to realize that neither position seems to be ruled out by the dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15146" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I thought you were apologizing, I would accept it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15147" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the soul is the formal cause, isn't it necessary for life and cell division? Unless man's soul changes and can said to be at one time a vegetative soul, animal soul or rational soul. Thus if it can change from lesser to greater could it not also change from greater to lesser, so that "this person is a human vegetable" is an accurate statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless there is explicit evidence as to the implications of "physical virginity".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15149" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, that's more or less Aquinas's view of generation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(at least the first part)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, I am sorry I was condescending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know how much thought Aquinas gave to the "descent" from the rational soul. But something like that seems to happen when body parts are kept "alive" outside of the person and possibly in certain end-of-life circumstances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And so ensoulment is part of all cell division and if so divided into two separate organisms they are two separate souls that have some relation to the prior soul causing said division.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15154" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The infusion of the rational soul is a special case, because the only way for an intellect to come to be is an special act of creation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems there are three souls. One before and two after.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15156" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But also seriously, why are Scott and I the only ones on this thread who ever get called out for being jerks?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(At least, according to the near-unanimous position of the Christian scholastics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15158" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott has called me a jerk, and worse, several times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15159" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Beitia calls 'imself a jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But are there people without souls? (Gingers speak up. Erik Bootsma)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, because "person" is defined by the rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Michael Beitia, let me know if I did that right)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott calls all of us jerks, so that doesn't count.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15164" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T20:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So that confirms it: Gingers are soulless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15165" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T20:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And thus not persons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong." I'm happy to go out being considered an idiot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope I haven't been a jerk without due cause.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I didn't say that, Marie!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the soul is the formal cause, isn't it necessary for life and cell division? Unless man's soul changes and can said to be at one time a vegetative soul, animal soul or rational soul. Thus if it can change from lesser to greater could it not also change from greater to lesser, so that "this person is a human vegetable" is an accurate statement.>>> has this been answered?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I basically said that the ascent is Aquinas's view, and I'm not sure about the "descent".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's not really an answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then the same biological organism (the fetus) is a completely different kind of being at different times</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's more or less Aquinas's view.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would it be a being fully, on that view?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, Samantha - and no offense taken. <br />I teach Theology to high school students for a living. We live in a very sceptical world and it is possible to Monty Python-esque pretty much any Catholic doctrine... I try to be fair with the supernatural, that's all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.. I would say that it is always the same thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only taught theology for a semester as a long term sub.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we know pretty well biologically these days that an embryo is a self-directed biological organism from conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, it's some kind of being</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15180" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The various transitional beings are incomplete beings directed by their nature to a complete being, namely the human generated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15181" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, as are the sperm and egg. But I don't hold the delayed ensoulment view.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should have said "would be"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15183" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure which position is right, myself, but I incline to simutaneity of conception and ensoulment myself. I just think delayed ensoulment isn't as stupid as some people think it to be and that Aristotle just might be right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^This.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that "outdated embryology" is, in the main, a spurious objection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15186" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-06T20:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, Jeff Neill, how's dinner coming along? Natives are getting restless!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15187" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T20:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sounds like the spouses are coming after their spouses now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15188" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-06T21:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please, get your nose out of the phone and man that grill </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15189" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:00:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife has asked if instead of yelling up the stairs, I would rather she post her requests on TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15190" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:00:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't answer, too busy with TNET of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to see this, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15192" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as long as no one tags Catherine Joliat Feil</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15193" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">D'OH!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15194" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Catherine Joliat Feil a lurker? Or just too good for us?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15195" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T21:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liz Neill, the chicken is flipped and sauced... I'll re flip and sauce in a minute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15196" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sounds tasty, Jeff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15197" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I got a "go to hell" so you've yet to top that. jerk. and I called Daniel a jerk too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, who said that? I missed it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">guess</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15200" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-06T21:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff Neill, thank you for the speedy response. I shall inform the natives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha, nevermind</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that counts, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15203" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what do we make of the time between fertilization and implantation, several days according to biologists, where the zygote has cells merrily dividing away?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think implantation is significant in some way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">according to biologists, 60-80% of naturally fertilized eggs pass with the uterine lining naturally, i.e.: aren't fertilized in time to implant, and thus out they go</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes I do</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15207" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">back to that are we.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If this goes back to hell again I'm out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15209" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">we are. I don't understand how 60-80% of "pregnancies" because that's what they would be if the zygote had a rational soul, end before the first week. Makes no sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15210" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T21:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_15211" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll give you that it seems wrong intuitively</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">charcoal grill and everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15213" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know it isn't an argument for delayed ensoulment, but it seems intuitively correct</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I hear that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15215" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's all. . . carry on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15216" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-06T21:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's how we roll Samantha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15217" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:16:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">how do you roll Samantha? (commas are important)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-06T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-06T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You try typing on the iPhone with a 1.5 yr old crawling on you. Still is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If delayed ensoulment is the real, I don't know if the Church is consistent in the gravity with which it regards all abortions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that follows</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Morning after as abortion. If not implanted then not ensouled the. Not abortion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not that it regards them as wrong, just the way it insists on the gravity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">automatic excommunications and such</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15225" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha Cohoe: I will cop to occasional lurking, but I lack the commitment and "patience" that actual posting would seem to require.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15226" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I'm satisfied that my influence has been felt on the topics that piqued my interest, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, should I get short Frye boots or tall Frye boots?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha! I should have guessed!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Are you trying to chase all the men off the thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, just get your advice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going shopping tomorrow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was trying to chase them off before, with all that hymen talk, but it didn't work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15233" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Based on my reading of Church history and the fathers, men *love* talking about hymens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15234" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol so true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15235" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T21:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't even. I just. You're all. I can't even.<br />Sigh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15236" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Re: boots: tall ones may be less subject to the vicissitudes of the fashion industry (i.e., they may be more "classic")--but the short ones are cheaper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15237" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-06T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-06T21:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I prefer talk about hymns.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://shop.nordstrom.com/.../frye-anna.../3453813...<br />Frye 'Anna - Shortie' Leather Boot (Women) | Nordstrom<br />Free shipping and returns on Frye 'Anna - Shortie'...<br />SHOP.NORDSTROM.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like these ones</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">neither tall nor cheap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha Cohoe: Probably the closest I came to actually posting (before tonight) was to tell you how jealous I am of your boys' school. But then the conversation moved on...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Their school is soooooo great</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil There is a Charlotte Mason school in Northern VA...but it is 45 minutes from here (more like 90, with traffic), and it costs twice as much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil (Everything in NoVa involves traffic and inflated prices.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, sorry. NoVa sucks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://shop.nordstrom.com/.../frye-anna-d-ring.../3699248...<br />Frye 'Anna' D Ring Boot (Women) | Nordstrom<br />Free shipping and returns on Frye 'Anna' D Ring Boot...<br />SHOP.NORDSTROM.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pardon me if I introduce, for anyone so inclined, a different and intrinsically less important topic, but one I have wanted to return to for some time now. I don't recall whether it was on TNET or some other thread that a number of teachers were comparing notes on their current students' willingness to make moral judgments, but I was surprised by the shared experience of these teachers on this matter. They said that their students were generally convinced that some actions are indeed immoral, especially obviously evil actions such as torturing babies. What I have found in the classroom, however, is that while students will confess to having a personal aversion to torturing babies, they are almost universally unwilling to say that such actions are wrong for everyone everywhere. I have set forth below an actual facebook dialogue with one of my ex-students (who is now studying at a well respected liberal arts college) which illustrates well my experience in the classroom for the last 35 years. I have not posted this dialogue to ridicule this student or anyone else, but I would be very interested to know whether other teachers out there have generally had the same kinds of exchanges with their students. In the dialogue below (which I have had to break up into three parts since facebook will not accept it as a single comment), I have changed the names of all the other participants to protect their identities. The dialogue was initiated when my ex-student "Karen" posted an article about a man who feel in love with his best friend and thereby discovered that homosexual love was as wonderful as heterosexual love. Karen's friend Sally was the first to respond with warm support for the article. After Karen's response to Sally, I entered the conversation as follows below:<br />Sally: I love the line, "It just matters if it brought me love." <br />Karen: Thanks so much for reading this!!!! I agree. If only everyone was like this you know?<br />Jeffrey Bond: Karen, I am confused by your comment. You want everyone to be like this? Does that mean you are not open to people who are not like this? That sounds judgmental to me, yet aren't you the one who is against people making such judgments. Please explain!<br />Karen: Dr. Bond, of course not! To each their own, of course. I simply meant, I wish everyone was so much more focused on the parts that matter, like love. Rather than the parts that get in the way, like what you think you are supposed to be, or identify with or what the world will see it as. I think its a beautiful gift that this man was able to just recognize that he loved this man, his best friend, and didn't try to question it to death, but rather accepted it as something positive and loving in his life and let that be enough. I think this is a case of simplicity being the best path he could have offered himself. I appreciate you caring enough to inquire further and I hope this explains a little more?<br />Jeffrey Bond: I think I understand what you are saying, but I am still puzzled. Can the principle of "to each their own" really guide us? What if someone's "own" is contrary to what you support in your comment above? In other words, what if someone rejects the idea of "to each their own." You clearly don't agree with that person, yet by your own principle don't you also have to approve of that person's position, too? Therefore, doesn't the principle of "to each their own" cause one to both approve of and disapprove of the very same thing? Does that make any sense to you?<br />Karen: It does! And I think I agree with exactly the way you've phrased it. I suppose a good comparison would be when a couple "agrees to disagree" on specific topic. They reach a level of neutrality without surrendering their own personal beliefs on the matter. This allows them to carry on together and move forward, functioning together in the same world as two individual people. When you take this ideology to a larger population than one specific couple, i.e. the human race, I think "to each their own" is a way to work towards harmony when there are so many different and sometimes conflicting opinions, values, and beliefs out there, without feeling compelled to all be cookie cutter copies of one another, always in agreement.<br />Karen: I agree completely with what you've said about my own principle asking me to both simultaneously approve of and disapprove of the very same thing, but I suppose it depends on what my end goal is for this to be acceptable and good enough. If my end goal is to achieve harmony, peace and respect amongst the people I share this earth with, then I would say its the best path I've learned to get there in my young adult life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Part II<br />Jeffrey Bond: But aren't there limits to the principle "to each their own"? Let me offer an extreme example in order to make a point. What if someone loves to torture babies. Surely you would not say to that person, "Hey, to each their own." You could not just "agree to disagree" could you?<br />Jeffrey Bond: I am assuming you could not "agree to disagree" with someone who loves to torture babies. You could not say in that case "to each their own" because you would be supporting someone doing something that is wrong. But as soon as you admit that something is wrong, don't you have to give up the principle "to each their own"?<br />Karen: Hmm. Well here is where I run into my own personal dilemma. I am still trying to figure out my own beliefs on if people can be, by nature, good or bad. I mean purely born one or the other without any choice in the matter. Or if everyone is born "good" and along the way things happen to them that shape the decisions they make, for example, torturing babies. Assuming I believe that everyone is born good and something led this person to make such a socially deemed "evil decision", I would be much more inclined to feel empathy for this person. I would not condone it, but I would try to put myself in his or her shoes and see how they've come to justify it. However, if I come to believe that some people are just born rotten in their core, then I would be significantly less inclined to agree to disagree in this situation because he would be the enemy. Assuming I was born inherently good and am in the right mind to decide such a thing <br />Karen: You are correct, once I might admit something is wrong, I would indeed have to forfeit that principle. But to play devil's advocate here, first we would have to determine who gets to decide the definition of "wrong". Just because the majority might think something is so doesn't make it Fact or Truth. Because to the individual doing the torturing, he or she may genuinely, in their heart and soul, may not find anything wrong at all about their beloved past time or choice in activities.<br />Jeffrey Bond: Yes, but if someone who tortures babies sincerely believes he is doing something good, wouldn't we say he is mistaken regardless of how he feels about it?<br />Greg: I definitely don't feel qualified to enter into this discussion, HOWEVER... obviously, once someone's "own" desires violate someone else's, that's when you essentially lose that right. Like murder, theft, and torturing babies. But when you're just shootin' some love out into the universe, and not forcing it on to a target that doesn't want it, you're not violating anyone's rights and therefore free to do it. I'd think.<br />Jeffrey Bond: Who determines the question of when a "violation" has taken place? If we say "to each their own," then we cannot say that murder, theft or torturing babies is wrong. Greg seems to be suggesting there is an objective standard of right and wrong, which would mean that "to each their own" cannot be a guiding principle in life.<br />Karen: I, personally, agree with you, yes. I am one of the last who would ever be one to hop on board the baby-torturing train. I just think its isn't up to me to decide that he is mistaken.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Oops, posted under Joel's profile</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Anyways, since you are pretty tall, you should be able to wear pretty much any height of boot...which is not true of everyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15251" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's funnier if I imagine Joel saying that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Part III<br />Jeffrey Bond: Would you really not try to stop someone who was torturing a baby?<br />Karen: Of course not! I plan on having at least 25 myself and adopting the rest of the one's that need a loving home! My point is just who am I to make that an all-mighty, omnipotent definition of right or wrong, mistaken or all-knowing?<br />Jeffrey Bond: Ah. But do you see that your principle of "to each their own" was in fact an attempt to identify an all-mighty universal statement about right and wrong? The problem is, that principle really can't guide our lives (as you just indicated when you acknowledged that you would not follow such a principle if you saw someone torturing a baby).<br />Jeffrey Bond: My point is this. We cannot avoid attempting to determine what is right and wrong, because even a principle like "to each their own" is such an attempt. It just happens to be one that contradicts itself and therefore cannot be true.<br />Karen: I realize this brings us back to our original debate; I am no longer allowing this man or woman to practice their own beliefs by interfering and placing my own values into the equation by trying to remove the baby from the situation. This example contradicts the principle I am in favor of practicing. Naturally, I don't mean to be a hypocrite, as I am sure no one ever intends to be. But I haven't come across a better "solution" so to speak for how to coexist as well as when I have practiced the "to each his own principle". And in more times than not, fortunately, the circumstances and situations I encourage myself to apply this principle in are not nearly as extreme as torturing a baby. Rather it just helps to remind me that there is more than one "right" way to live, even if its different than mine. Just because its not my way or a way I may not be able to see eye to eye on, doesn't mean its wrong or beneath mine.<br />Jeffrey Bond: I have to get some sleep. But I would love to continue this conversation at another time if you are interested. You have a good heart and I'm glad to hear you plan on having 25 children! Peace be with you!<br />Karen: Absolutely! I always welcome intelligent conversation. Its essential, quite frankly. Thank you for such kind words as well! Peace be with you and your family too Dr. Bond.<br />David: I had to read these comments 3 times but that was easily the coolest debate I've ever encountered<br />Karen: Thanks David.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15253" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil He was not very happy about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15254" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey-- Caleb has reported similar unwillingness among students to actually make universal moral claims</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-06T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-06T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Especially given the subject matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15256" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, they all think Joel gives excellent fashion advice now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15257" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'll go with the tall ones. Thanks, Catherine!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15258" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^They all think rightly then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15259" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you get sucked in, then I'll never quit. And I keep telling myself I'm about to quit...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, Joel! You're right, I *am* pretty tall!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15261" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: thanks for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was it on this thread that this was being discussed long ago? Or was it another thread of yours?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, in my (limited) experience, the default position of people (these days, at least, but perhaps always) has been rank hypocrisy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't seen much of that. The vast majority of my students are very earnest. They are just deeply confused.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A lot of Caleb's students, though, when pushed, would rather admit their their moral norms are actually just moral preferences than say there is objective right and wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15266" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't that crazy??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15267" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I think you should get the shorter boots </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15268" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I refuse to be scared away)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has been the norm in my experience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15270" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can lazy moral relativism be the norm? What the hell happened?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plato's cave tells the story quite well, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15272" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't they all hate "bigotry," though? Everything is relative, except of course a denial that all is relative. Or so it seems to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15273" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because we are now the last men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15274" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The hollow men</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-06T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-06T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They will tie themselves up in knots coming up with a way to condemn bigotry, that's true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15276" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you ask them about racism and same sex marriage and economic inequality they seem very sure. Is slavery wrong? They say yes.<br />I don't buy it. They are torn, to be sure, by a stupid relativism but most students like most people are not really so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But bigotry just means thinking some things are always wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, they will condemn it, like they condem torturing babies, but if pushed they will say that their condemnation is personal, not objective.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15279" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And bigotry is always wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15280" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our public discourse is full of claims about justice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15281" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree there is no agreement and mass confusion re what the basis of morality is or even can or could be, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but if you press them, as I did Karen in the dialogue I posted, my experience is that they will return to the subjective level, even on racism, same-sex marriage, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-06T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-06T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I need more experience in the classroom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look at what Karen says about torturing babies. She is not personally for it, of course, but she cannot say it is wrong for anyone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is also full of relativism. One of the reasons radical Islam gets treated differently by many (but not all) moderns, is the desire to be inclusive and not to judge other cultures. Of course, against that you have people like Hitchens or whoever claiming that all religion is evil absolutely. But he's fighting people largely on his side--i.e. elite liberal westerners.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How long have you been teaching?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15287" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T21:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then there is Pater Edmund, who seems to just have a thing for Iran.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I will speak unto them of the most contemptible thing: that, however, is THE LAST MAN!"<br />And thus spake Zarathustra unto the people:<br />It is time for man to fix his goal. It is time for man to plant the germ of his highest hope.<br />Still is his soil rich enough for it. But that soil will one day be poor and exhausted, and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow thereon.<br />Alas! there cometh the time when man will no longer launch the arrow of his longing beyond man—and the string of his bow will have unlearned to whizz!<br />I tell you: one must still have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: ye have still chaos in you.<br />Alas! There cometh the time when man will no longer give birth to any star. Alas! There cometh the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself.<br />Lo! I show you THE LAST MAN.<br />"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?"—so asketh the last man and blinketh.<br />The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything small. His species is ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth longest."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have not had this experience. I do think Matthew brought it up a long while ago. I am surprised. But it is the conclusion of the principles that govern public discourse and law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T21:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"But that soil will one day be poor and exhausted, and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow thereon."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15291" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know how many of you have the time (or inclination) to actually read more than my introduction to my dialogue with Karen that I posted above, but I would be grateful to any of you who would read the whole thing to see if it conforms with your experience. For me, this conversation is absolutely typical. If your experience is otherwise, I would be very interested to know how your students react when pressed in the same way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15292" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T22:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is actually shocking and explains a lot. I have seen this on one FB heated debate where the ultimate ground for a particular pro abortion position was that individual choice was the first principle of moral action.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15293" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have students because I don't teach. I interact with adults of various ages in my job. But I've found that the older ones also suffer from the same inability to firmly come down on a side. <br />"whatever makes you happy" is more the phrase I hear</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">However I have not had a class in which I pressed this question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">in a blue collar business, a lot of the personal ribbing that goes on between men is calling each other homosexual in one way or another. In the last several years the more frequent response has been "but is it wrong?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(206, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you ever challenge that principle by pointing out that one cannot consistently defend "whatever makes you happy" when two people are made happy by opposed actions, say the child's desire to avoid the abuser and the abuser's desire to abuse the child?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15297" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">frankly, I usually call them F*CKING IDIOTS who all went to Catholic school and should know better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-06T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-06T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what's up? Been off the thread for a bit, after we were discharged.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but then again, no one will engage me in debate at work</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15300" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quite a healthy response (in my subjective opinion)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T22:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was my experience too, Michael, in an environment that allowed for more heated arguments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15302" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the F-word is like salt to food at my work. it is added to everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15303" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good opportunity to expose the problem. You want to debate--that makes you happy. They don't want to debate--that makes them happy. Can they really agree that both sides are right? Someone is going to be left unhappy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The funniest thing was the Texas style liberals (complete with sidearm) ranting about how all republicans were racist when I was the only one who had hispanic/black/etc. friends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15305" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have more success with discussing Obama and the adulation he receives from the black community in Chicago, with members of the black community in Chicago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am surprised you are still alive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15307" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T22:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny how parochial the average American liberal is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">several of my co-workers live on the south side, consequently are black and there is an odd respect that you get when they realize that you aren't from "there"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-06T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-06T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He wants racial equality, but heaven forbid that he interact with members of other races in anything besides a professional environment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">people from the West don't have the inborn racism that white Chicagoans have</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh and BTW Joel, I am from Idaho. wanna guess how many times I've seen Built to Spill?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many? (Only once for me.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15313" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">conservatively? 30</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15315" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">they used to play almost every Thursday night at the all-ages club in Boise called "the crazy horse" that, alas, turned into a gay bar right after high school called "bacchus cabaret"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15316" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am of the opinion that Iran ought to develop nuclear power generation. They need it both to continue developing as a country, providing power and clean water as well as continuing their only major export, oil. They lack the natural gas resources to continue a natural growth curve As a nation going through industrialization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15317" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's funny that even Zizek recognizes that "tolerance" is the only virtue left in the West</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can say that folks in northern Wisconsin have not lost their moral compass to that degree. It is refreshingly down to earth up here. But even Eau Claire is not so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But absolute majority rule is preferred mode of government?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-06T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-06T22:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, are you near Wasau?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15321" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would think that a totalitarian set of rules would be preferred by those that do not wish to establish or push their view on others</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and intolerance the only vice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T22:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">90 miles</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15324" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only sin is tobacco cigarettes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15325" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here are the fundamental moral principles of the students I see year in and year out:<br />1. No one should impose his views on anyone else.<br />2. Everyone should be tolerant of all points of view.<br />3. Everyone should be free to do whatever he likes as long as he does not hurt anyone else.<br />4. Everyone should be open-minded.<br />5. Nonconformity is better than conformity.<br />6. Democracy is the best form of government.<br />7. There is no absolute truth. What's "true" for you may not be what is "true" for me.<br />All of these principles, when understood as they are understand by my students, are self-contradictory, because they all rest on the relativist principle set forth in number 7. Yet they repeat them like they are the 10 commandments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15326" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-06T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-06T22:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Built to Spill on ensoulment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlgzqTRv7Ec<br />Built to Spill - Cleo<br />There's Nothing Wrong With Love<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When simple examples break the rules, how do they respond? Confused, hostile?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Confused.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And when you show them the contradiction in their position, the vast majority of them continue to hold that position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do they attempt to establish answers?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My experience has convinced me that Plato's cave allegory is fundamentally correct, and the seven principles above are the shadows of the American cave.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The allegory works, no doubt. How often do people wish to leave the cave?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see one or two per year who want out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thx 1138. The cave wants to keep you there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The cave dwellers want to stay there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or any other modern interpretations of the cave. Such as matrix or the Lego movie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Truman Show</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer the Lego movie as a remake of the matrix... It is a fight to leave.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And once out there isn't much there to support except knowing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15341" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The modern cave seems much more powerful than the original version exposed by Plato.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15342" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess this is the problem with tac and supporting graduates once out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-06T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-06T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Now what"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15344" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Dominic Bolin" data-date="2014-09-06T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominic Bolin at 2014-09-06T22:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: I've taught two sections of Phil 201&202 at CUA (required for all first year students). I focus on ethics and politics for the courses, and my experience was that at least 1/3rd of the students disagree with moral relativism even before taking the courses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is quite amazing. Can they make the argument against it? Or do they simply oppose it out of a kind of instinct?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15346" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">These students must have been visited by Hermes and given the holy moly to protect them against the seductive wiles of Circe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15347" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Dominic Bolin" data-date="2014-09-06T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominic Bolin at 2014-09-06T22:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Several have argued against the inconsistency of moral relativism in a way similar to the one you pointed out: e.g. you can't consistently hold both that morals are subjective and that you can do whatever as long as you don't hurt someone else. Some of the others weren't sure how to defend it initially, but agreed with the arguments after they were presented. And then there were some that didn't seem to be sure whether they should be relativists or not (they wanted to agree with both sides). The remaining 30-40% were quite convinced of moral relativism even after these discussions. I don't think they ever changed their mind (at least not while I had them for class).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If over 50% are leaving having been convinced that moral relativism is inherently self-contradictory, then there is hope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can convince many of them that moral relativism is self-contradictory, and I can even get some to repeat the arguments and seemingly understand them, but most of them slip back to their original relativism once they have been away from the discussion for a period of time. Very few really make the position their own.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where I taught relativism was not a problem and I had not realized how pervasive it was. I had imbibed some of its flavors. But it is impossible maybe to fully shake off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond - your concerns are normative. This year, teaching Seniors, I am going through Thomas Dubay's Faith and Certitude. I couldn't recommend it more highly for dealing with those precise issues. Chapter 6 - the Origins of Error - is particularly compelling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15352" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-06T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-06T23:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will check it out. Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-06T23:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-06T23:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had some while ago read Testem Benevolentiam and its a check list of some of my faults, more than one that relates to relativism. It is in our air and water and mother's milk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15354" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-06T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-06T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">These are the 10 questions I just assigned for Ch. 6 - I think it will give you a feel for what I am getting at:<br />Faith and Certitude - Thomas Dubay<br />Chapter 6 Questions<br />1. Should we accept error as something “normal”? Why or why not?<br />2. According to physical laws, should a stick in the water appear to be bent? How does answering that question help us to understand whether or not our senses truly deceive us?<br />3. In the example of the fruit tree, what was the origin of the author’s error when he declared “Look at the gorgeous apples”?<br />4. Dubay lists six common reasons that we often assert what we have not really seen, heard or studied. Please list these six reasons - your list does not have to be in complete sentences. (Hint: there are 6 paragraphs in a row explaining them).<br />5. At the bottom of page 90, Dubay says “An ignorance of one’s ignorance is a depressing disease.” We all suffer from this at times. How is it possible to combat this “disease”?<br />6. What does it mean to say “men go by their sympathies, not by argument”?<br />7. “American folk wisdom excludes anything that cannot be placed on a poster or bumper sticker and read at a glance.” Dubay says men everywhere show the same trait. Why?<br />8. Why does sin cloud perception? Do we reach reality as a whole person or as a detached intellect?<br />9. What are the three main reasons people leave the Church?<br />10. “It seems clear enough that if sexual activities leading to intercourse and coitus itself were unpleasant or simply neutral, no one would have any problem seeing that contraception is both unnatural and evil.” Explain how we rationalize sexual behavior through “autokiddery” (kidding oneself) - using the example of those who claimed the ruling purpose of their own intercourse was the unselfish “enrichment of their partner’s personality”.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15355" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-06T23:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-06T23:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">WRT to the Virgin birth, the whole sun shining through glass analogy, which is directly from Augustine btw, is used in the Roman Catechism and has some magisterial support. It isn't merely a pious belief. That doesn't mean it is a dogma, but it does mean that it deserves a little more respect. I would dare call it at the least probabilior, or even well-founded, meaning it would be impudence to mock it or dismiss it lightly, but possible to reject after considered thought.<br />She was virgin, before, DURING and after. If the Church saw the need to say "during" there must be some sense, even if only incidental, in which virginity could have been harmed/lost in giving birth, no?<br />I don't know if the passage has been brought up, but St. Thomas explains the matter of virginity being the exclusion of having experienced sexual motions of the generative parts, with the form being the exclusion of any wilful sexual motion of said parts (so self-abuse means you are not a virgin, but rape doesn't mean that... you would remain, formally, a virgin)<br />Now for the perfection of virginity Aquinas says one needs both mental and physical integrity. Sometimes he does refer to physical intactness as the matter, other times only as perfecting, making the matter as I said above.<br />Mary would be a virgin formally, obviously, and this suffices to be a true virgin, in the moral sense. But she would also be a virgin material, in that she would not have experienced such motions even involuntarily. The physical intactness would be a further perfection of the matter, though Aquinas himself notes how an incision, say by a sword, would no more affect the matter of virginity than being cut in the hand.<br />Actually, let me post this more. Aquinas fleshes this out more in some places. Seeing that the integrity of the mind, i.e. the formal and moral aspect of virginity is the more essential, the material integrity is 3 fold<br />1. Purely bodily- St. Thomas says this is not the matter of any virtue or vice, except accidentally, as mediating some passion of the soul. unde si per aliquam incisionem claustra pudoris rumpantur, non majus detrimentum virginitati inerit quam si pes aut manus gladio incideretur ("whence if by some incision the hymen is broken, there would not be a greater detriment to virginity than if the foot or hand were cut by the sword.")<br />So rupturing the hymen is only a matter of virginity, WHEN the rupture is actually caused by the sexual activity. Otherwise it has just about nothing to do with it. But its intactness would be a visible sign that such activity has not occurred, even if its absence is no sure sign that it has<br />2. The second element of its matter, is the venereal motion itself, from whence sexual pleasure arises.<br />3. Is the passion of the soul that subjects reason to itself<br />Only these last two pertain per se to the matter of vice and virtue. It is possible, it seems, to affirm the dogma and hold that the rupturing of the hymen by birth would be like an incision, not relevant to virginity. But then one would have to explain the importance of the DURING. You could easily explain the physical part, as being far broader than the hyman. So just the "during" part needs explanation....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15356" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T00:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Samantha Cohoe, I had a talk I have once that went into a lot of detail about Aquinas' view of generation and how just about everyone misrepresents it....it is not as simple as saying that it starts with a vegetable soul, and whatever that thing is dies and is replaced by an animal soul, and whatever that thing is dies and is replaced by a man, but that does seem to be the case of what he is saying on a first reading.<br />I wish I could find that talk...even when I am the one who did the research, I am too lazy not to plagiarize myself....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15357" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T00:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somehow I found a rough draft of the talk...<br />In question 65 of the Prima Pars of the Summa Theologica, Aquinas asks whether the substantial forms of corporeal beings are produced by the angels. St. Thomas explains two views he rejects. One is an emantionist view, which holds that there is a separated and subsisting form of man that is immaterial, and the immaterial man participates in this form, so that the matter receives its impression in a way. The same is held about life, and horse and any other formal aspect of a being. The other view, which he ascribes to Avicenna, is that the forms of corporeal things exist in the intelligences, or as we call them angels, the same way that the form of a statue exists in the artisan prior to making the statue.<br />He says both of these share a common error. They treat the substantial form as an entity itself, and hence tried to answer how the form itself was brought into being. Rather, it is the composite that comes into being. It is not the equine form that is made as some kind of substance itself which is then impressed on matter, but this horse that comes to be. This being the case, the cause must be looked for in another composite substance, and not a spiritual substance. A horse produces a horse. Angels are still involved, because he holds that the composite agent is moved by a created spiritual substance, but they are involved precisely by moving the corporeal agent. Hence the form does not emanate from them or arise from then apart from the corporeal agent. Rather, the potentiality of matter for this form is brought into act by the composite agent. The created spiritual substance moves it to that form, but does not replace the material agent. Further the species of these forms is referred back to God as the first cause. Only the first production of a corporeal creature involved God immediately producing the form, because matter only obeys His command there. But once nature exists, it is the reason for the reproduction of that nature.<br />In question 118 of the prima pars we move to the production of the soul. St. Thomas affirms that the sensitive soul (the soul of animals) is not produced by an act of creation, but through the agent reproducing. The argument to the contrary, he states, rests on the premise that an animal soul is simple and self-subsisting. If this were true, then it would have to be made through creation. He denies the premise because, as he argued earlier, the animal soul does not subsist. The reason is that in brute animals, who have sensation but no intellect, there is no operation that is not involved with some organ. Since every operation then is of the composite acting as a unity, there is no per-se operation of the animal soul. Since being follows upon operation, there is no warrant to claim that the animal soul is subsistent. It must then perish with the body.<br />Because of this it is not proper to speak of the animal soul being made, but rather the composite being made. It is the composite that exists, not the animal soul, except inasmuch as the existence of the composite is through the form. Hence, the soul is produced in the matter through corporeal agency, similar to non living things. The semen acts as a medium in the case of reproduction, it is an instrument of the generator. For St. Thomas the semen has a force that acts on the foetal matter given by the woman. The foetal matter has vegetative life and takes in nourishment. The force of the influence of the semen transmutes it until in some principal part the sensitive soul is present (the sensitive soul is not in the semen, but effect by the semen). Once this happens the semen is no longer exists as the semen gets dissolved. If we adapt his explanation to modern science, we may say that when the sperm joins the egg a change is effected such that in a principal part (say the nuclei of the egg) the form is already present. From thence, the substantial form in the body is able to work to the perfection of that body without any more need of influence from any sperm.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15358" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T00:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the next article we find that we cannot say this about the human soul. Indeed, St. Thomas say that it is heretical to believe that the human soul is generated by the semen. The reason is that the human soul is intellectual. Now the intellect has an operation this does not involve the body, such as happens in understanding universals. Since this is the case, a material agent could never produce it. Further, this being the case, that it has a per se operation apart from the body, it is subsistent unlike the animal soul. Being simple and subsistent it needs be created by God. This holds true in every instance of human generation, not merely the creation of the first man.<br />Several objections are raised. The most important is the second. In man there is one and the same soul according to substance, intellective, sensitive and nutritive. But the sensitive soul is generated in man by the semen, just as in other animals, whence also the philosopher says in his book on the generation of animals that animal and man are not made at the same time, but first an animal is made having a sensitive soul. Therefore the intellective soul is also caused from the semen.<br />St. Thomas’ answer here is very informative. He rejects two positions pretty quickly. One is that the vital operations of the embryo are caused by the mother or the semen. But this cannot be because nourishment, growth, etc cannot be caused from an exterior principle. So at least the <br />nutritive soul is present in the embryo from the get-go. He rejects also that there are three souls in man, where the intellectual soul stands as act to the sensitive soul, which stands as act to the nutritive soul. This is rejected because one must reject really the notion of substantial form to hold it. <br />The third position he argues at length against. This holds that the same soul evolves from nutritive, to sensitive and to intellectual. This position even affirms God doing this.<br />He rejects this for several reasons. One is that substantial form does not admit of more or less. By adding or subtracting we get a different species, just as by take a species of number, say 5, and adding unity, we no longer have the same species but a new one, viz. 6. The same identical form cannot belong to multiple species for an obvious reason that either the form would not be the same, or the species would be identical. Second, an animal would come to be in a continuous motion. But in substantial change we do not have a lapse of time. Either this thing is a man or isn’t. He may be a man who is bleeding to death, but he is still fully a man while he is a man. Third, this would not be generation, which is always the bringing of a new thing into the matter and hence the end of an old thing, This against what we observe in nature. Lastly, we must either say that the intellectual soul is subsistent in which case it needs be distinct from the pre-existing form it evolved from or that like the pre-existing form it is not subsistent, but that is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15359" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T00:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Thomas states (I didn't have the citation in there)<br />Certain people have understood the body of man to be formed prior in time and afterward that God poured the soul into the already formed body. But this is against the ratio of the perfection of the first institution of things, that God should make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body, since both are part of human nature. And this is also even more unfitting of the body, which depends on the soul and not conversely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My lazines meant massive c&p...but I do think my thoughts from the past-me were helpful to present-me and may to some of you. Especially after seeing the question raised about the ascension/descension of souls</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15361" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-07T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-07T00:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pretty sure TNET has met its quota for use & misuse of hymen. Next topic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T00:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about my last 5 posts? That was about ensoulment/ embryonic development</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T08:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems impossible to say the zygote is not an human person (ensouled) though rational in potentia without rejecting the notion of substantial form. But that (rational in potentia) is little different from the nine month stage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T08:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does this mean we get to return to twinning? TNET is Ground Hogs Day wherefore it can be said to be never ending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T08:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T08:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to point out my earlier contention that while discussing this matter is interesting and helpful, at the same time it is beyond our capacity and that is fitting. For as pointed out in Job, the foundations of the world are inscrutable. How much moreso the new creation of a human soul which is of more worth than all visible creation, being eternal? (False assumptions about creation and the immutability of the laws of physics really set all "scientific" theories about origins on tenuous (or ignorant) grounds as an example.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T08:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh and while the thread is dead, while I appreciate the criticism of my anti evolutionary position which admits speciation, I have sound reasons and am as immoveable by mere hypotheses as the earth before Galileo. Anyways my sentimental syllogism is hard to overcome: i am comfy dwelling in the notion of an 8000 year old earth and with the thought that Adam named many of the same animals I name.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15367" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-07T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-07T09:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh oh! TNET is dying?! It is time to inject it with life through sneaky underhanded means! <br />Modesty in women's dress - a good thing, or the BEST thing, ladies, amirite? <br />(hee hee hee)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T09:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">define "modesty". are you going burka levels, or tastefully covered?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T09:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">burka or bust baby. Lets blow up this thread. What does thomas say? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15370" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T09:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Breast feeding in public without a cover is modest<br />Get over the fact that a baby is eating on an uncovered female. <br />Clothing is a primarily a tool for function, secondarily a tool for beauty to complement the human form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15371" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="David Upham" data-date="2014-09-07T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">David Upham at 2014-09-07T09:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do know this: if you want to see grossly IMMODEST--go to the TAC campus. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Immodesty is an effect of passion not action. So the person wearing "what is immodest" is never immodest to themselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15373" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T09:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T09:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Further, The concept of modesty is the only outward effect of the fall. (All that other stuff about pain in childbirth and other such crap is hogwash)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T09:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">distinguo: modesty as safeguarding purity and modesty as temperance in our relations to others (including dress and due proportion or a mean between slovenly appearance and drawing excessive attention to externals.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15375" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T09:54:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/.../new-line-of-sleek-sexy.../<br />New Line Of Sleek, Sexy Ankle Length Jean Jumpers Stirs Up Controversy At 2014...<br />EYEOFTHETIBER.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re modesty as a safeguard of the virtue of purity, reason establishes the norms after which custom works out acceptable habiliments. That is how I understand Aquinas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Complementing the human form, would mean complementing the externals as beautiful. <br />The athlete is not immodest. For example:<br />I do not believe a triathlete is ever immodest. Running, swimming, cycling. <br />However you a person moves to the category of morbidly obese, the human form requires more clothing to complement the lack of form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Modesty as a safeguard to the purity of another may actually fall under justice and not merely the virtue of temperance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15379" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT JEFF. What of the functional aspect you mention? What are clothes for?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Therefore, "burka burka burka"?<br />Sounds like the problem is in the formation of the individual and an over emphasized sense of modesty is actually destructive to purity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weather protection, shoes, socks (when's angles don't suffice) leg covers if you may get scratched</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">burka was a joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Complementing human form</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know I laughed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All clothing is part of rationality, however clothing for modesty is a result of the fall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But why any clothes for Venus on a temperate day in the shade?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being a work of man it can be done better or worse; therefore some cloths can be for beauty sake. Venus wearing flowers in her hair counts. Also the sun may move.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Disrobing in the heat and standing in the shade is not uncommon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">However if you create a culture that says anything less than a burka is immodest, and would cause impurity, and people were raised in that culture is it not true?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus like my link above if you raise your children to believe modesty means ankle length jean jumpers, than truly anything less is immodest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[We have forgotten, nor will get to, modesty as temperance (in speech, gesture and dress etc) in our relation with others.] Let me suggest that reason does give minimal limits as to what ought to be covered. They are set by what tempts the weaker sex (in this regard) to impure thoughts (and I am not speaking of those who make no attempt to guard the eyes.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"No nipples and pubic hair" start with that as the reasonable limit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've lived and worked in Huntington Beach where string bikinis are street wear... It's the beach</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15395" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As my wife would say "sufficient length that you don't flash you hoo-ha if you bend over"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15396" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T10:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank God I broke you from that habit, Jeff. Good thing you married me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Prudish people make sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15398" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're beautiful Liz. Flaunt what your maker gave you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T10:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My knees are quite pretty. Thank you </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I put this in my thesis at tac as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so you are fine with your 12 year old daughter wearing bandaids + thong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ace bandage??? Sure! Totally kidding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Front yard or back yard?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe dressing appropriately for the situation. For example, I rarely wear shorts, unless it is for sports.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But do you think Aquinas and Pius XI are wrong to point out that norms for fashion shouldn't be taken from a morally corrupt culture like the cannibals of Hawaii as opposed to the full length dresses of traditional Ugandans?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15406" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They dressed for their climate. Not immodest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ugandans?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Videos and photos of tribesmen are not immodest until you take them from their environment and culture and placed them in European culture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW Hawaii is very temperate. Houstonians should be stark naked by that argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the definition of modesty that people are going off of?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the houstonians would get sun burned....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i raised it above DL. I would be happy with a better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem with setting the definition of modesty in the other is that the culture the other is raised in is the standard of modesty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, as I understand Aquinas, modesty would fall under the virtue of temperance, and (stated negatively) would involve a habitual disposition where one does not draw undue attention to oneself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Therefore prudish people in a commune are creating a cultural standard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The need for normalization is across the culture falling to less than the standard is immodest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15418" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T10:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Modesty is not just with regard to dress, but all actions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. But when we typically speak of modesty that is never what it is about. Instead it is a matter that falls under justice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T10:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, a Victorian era woman would likely sin against modesty if she wore pants. Nowadays, there would be no sin. <br />Likewise, a Victorian era man would likely sin against modesty if he were out in his garden without a shirt on. Nowadays, not so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that is precisely the problem, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15422" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Placing modesty under justice quickly leads to a kind of tyranny of the offended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15424" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is the exact problem and why that flawed thinking ends in burka burka burka</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Prudish people make the sin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moreover, I do not think that one needs to bring in the account of justice in order to make standards of modesty considerate of others. All virtues are always understood in a social setting. The definition of modesty, as I proposed, takes society into account.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not so much. . . . but some societies are not to be used as guides. I am not appealing to another society especially the current.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are certain challenges in popular western culture because it has become acceptable (in many instances) to where clothing that deliberately draws undue attention. That, however, would be something that we could not allow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I do think you are right that there are some cultures which are "better" objectively and should be seen as further human development in a real way. <br />The naked tribes of Africa, while in no way sinning against modesty, nevertheless, hardly seem something to aim at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15430" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In general, however, I think one can allow for broad variations in dress that will still be modest. <br />Bikinis, for example, are not inherently immodest. At the beach they are acceptable. Some, Bikinis, however, deliberately try to excite too much attention. Is there a line? No. A lot has to do with the interior disposition of the wearer and his/her behavior and bearing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Better societies? Bull crap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15433" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let me suggest that long dresses need not be prudish and i have observed such. Because some are so does not mean all are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Given that man has as a certain end, aren't some societies better at helping man achieve his end than others?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are in your culture where you are at right now. The standard of society changes in the seasons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Granted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Given that man has as a certain end, aren't some societies better at helping man achieve his end than others?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, for example: I think that polygamist societies are not as conducive to human flourishing as monogamist societies. In particular, it seems that women tend, on a whole, to suffer in attaining human fulfillment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What tyranny of society do you wish to impose on all others?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Therefore, I would say that monogamist societies (in general) are better than polygamist societies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, careful about the gap between is and ought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Creating an "ought" is artificial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moreover, is a certain minimal norm for modesty prerequisite to developing the more important aspects of the virtue of modesty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15446" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Simply because a monogamist society is better, it does not mean that one can impose monogamy from on high on a polygamist society. <br />My only point is that a monogamist society comes closer to a nor form human flourishing than a polygamist society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think I am being controversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15449" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems there are several aspects to be considered before wearing clothes: 1) protection from the elements 2) hygiene 3) convention 4) awareness of concupiscence, one's own or others' 5) aesthetic values</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I think that is an excellent question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15451" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And add beauty of the human form Catherine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly, very primitive tribes cannot even conceive of very high standards of human excellence in living. They are too busy surviving.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15454" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But remember also that modesty does not simply pertain to clothing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Exactly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I defined it above, the virtue of modesty is a part of temperance whereby one does not draw undue attention to oneself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15457" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Positively put, one draws the right amount of attention, at the right time, in the right way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brides should look gorgeous and catch everyone's attention.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Monks, not so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christ on the cross is immodest?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Undo attention to self?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you actually read what I wrote?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Excellent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think that Christ was drawing undue attention to himself?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't that 'undue' pretty subjectively determined? For example, there are women in beautiful African costume who go to mass at my church. Sure they draw a lot of attention because they are dressing differently, but who is to say that it is too much or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15469" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Catherine. But virtues, in particulars, are subjectively exercised and expressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15470" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah here too, beautiful colorful African dresses and hats</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15471" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The mean for Milo..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So there will always be a lot of gray area on what is modest and what is not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Externally speaking, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just like with all of temperance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too little for milo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is my drinking a bottle of wine intemperate?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Clearly not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Likely, you can't know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Until you try it anyway.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15480" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless I clearly act like a drunk afterward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus the problem with ideal societies and modesty of the ideal do not apply, since it is not real</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record: One bottle is not intemperate for me, in my experience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, I don't understand what you are saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you explain more?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's no one standard that could apply to all societies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All of the 5 points on dress I stated above are all variable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Modesty concerns actions, words and dress in Daniel's. Of course I am Chaucerian in that our attire reveals our character and state, not good for me. But as to an ideal standard with room for variation i think Aquinas answers that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For example, I think naturist colonies can be modest because the convention is not to wear clothes, and people get used to the sight of a lot of flabby human bodies pretty quickly. Hygiene is an issue however, and protection from the elements...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15489" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NUDIST CAMPS. EUREKA!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15490" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oops, naturist colonies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15491" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that this: "For example, there's no one standard that could apply to all societies."<br />Is only true if you think that there are no universally applicable characteristics of human flourishing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15493" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like in the monogamy v. polygamy example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consequently, while certain virtues will be expressed differently in certain societies, it is still possible (though difficult) to objectively evaluate societies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is why I said that there is no sin against modesty in the naked tribes of Africa.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15496" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, I am also inclined to the position that it is easier to behave immodestly if one is not clothed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15497" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Daniel. The virtues are universal. Everyone ought to have the virtue of courage, for example. But how that virtue is exercised by any given person in any given situation will necessarily differ based on their size, age, gender, health, etc. That does not make the virtue itself subjective in any way. One cannot avoid the "ought" connected with virtue. That "ought" is not imposed by man; it is discerned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15498" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, said Jeffery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15499" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Particularly the part where you agreed with me.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_15501" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hence, political communities that have laws and customs that help us achieve these virtues, which are natural to us, are definitely superior to societies that fail to do so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^just as long as they don't require burkas, or a certain kind of dress.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15503" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our political community, if it can even be given that name, has failed miserably in directing us to virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">re Aquinas he points to a then 2400 year variation for what appears to be norm. Is difficult to dress modesty in a culture that denies it as a virtue in any way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is that everyone is going to have a different idea of what virtue is virtue (even if they're wrong), and I'd rather my political community not have the power to dictate what to wear, for example, so that when the leaders who are in power are wrong, we don't have to comply.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So the police should not have the authority to require a person walking naked down the street to cover himself?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is one thing to say it is difficult to know where to draw the line, but it is quite another to say there is no such line.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15508" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, I would argue that a political community that is legislating with regard to clothing, typically, is not adequately allowing for those thing that promote human flourishing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One can promote modesty in other ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly better ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are never required to follow laws that are unjust. But simply because unjust laws can be made, do we want to throw out all laws?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does not seem unreasonable to legislate AGAINST certain clothing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T11:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But even there one must be careful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15514" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T11:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right - the political community is composed of people. And people disagree. Increasingly disagree, ever more radically. To convince others, one must persuade them.<br />Laws about what people wear? Generally outside the extremes this is dictated by custom and culture, not legal regulation. Law isn't going to help you much here. <br />We built the largest Catholic cradle to graduate school educational system in this country. It still exists. There is a parish church in virtually every community. And they are all free to speak to these issues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15515" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Note that the boundaries for engaging in what are deemed appropriate kinds of persuasion are still set by the political community. Politics is there even when it decides to default on a given issue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15516" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Aristotelian terms, the people are the material cause of the political community, but the regime is the formal cause. It shapes the people according to a vision, even when that vision is that no one should shape anyone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15517" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T11:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catholic Church (its human element, that is) has largely lost the will and the ability to speak to these issues--to persuade its people--precisely because it too has been shaped by the regime principle of "it's wrong to shape others". It's called Americanism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15518" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I guess the Catholic Church will die off here then and in most countries. I guess it can't survive without the force of law on its side, just like Jesus said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15519" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(59, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T12:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too bad the Church is just too weak to change culture and laws.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am counting on you to come to its rescue, Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15521" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T12:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe the more radical Muslims are right and Iran is the model but just the wrong religion: maybe it's just a race to take power and legislate rightly if error has no rights and it is the office of the wise to rule...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15522" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T12:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now don't get sensitive on me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, while it's true that modesty isn't under justice as a particular virtue. It and every other virtue falls under justice as a cardinal virtue.<br />Also, I think there are two ways of presenting modesty incorrectly: one focuses too much on individual freedom in action and the other focuses too much on dressing as a "political" action. But both aspects are important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are not the Church and state partners in the need to form virtuous citizens? This does not mean a theocracy, but it also does not mean the modern understanding of separation of Church and state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15525" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I walk away for a couple hours and I miss out on the "fashion police" and totalitarian religious regimes?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15526" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T12:09:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Walking away from TNET should clearly be outlawed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a former police officer, the last thing I would want to waste my time on is enforcement t of poor taste.<br />I prefer the safety of people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15528" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T12:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you missed it Jeff. Consensus on TNET is that you must don the burka on TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As for the culture and society, there is formal and informal and right application of clothing to fit the environment both in form and function.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15530" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T12:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Dinesen gives a wonderful account of the difference between the Catholic and the Protestant missionaries' approach to the indigenous folks in Kenya on the issue of dress. The Protestants tried to make them all wear trousers. The Catholics did not. Clearly this relates to the Catholic vs. Protestant view of nature--utterly depraved for the Protestants; ordered to the good for the Catholics. So, yes, of course cultural difference must be taken into account when it comes to modesty (as many have said above). But that is not the same thing as saying everyone should simply wear whatever he wants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Black tie affair. (Wear whatever you want and would be appropriate)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Construction site... Framing and finish painting. Wear whatever you want.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The standards will be created to the task at hand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed, though I would say the standards are discerned, not created.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Correct</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15536" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Form and function. Tuxedo t-shirts do not apply</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Created in the sense of making.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not legislating</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15539" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T12:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point is simply that the standards come to us from nature. Hence, we don't make them; we discern them. Then, having discerned them, legislation will naturally follow from that discernment. No society--not even the nudist colonies--can avoid legislating on these matters. But the virtue of prudence is needed to know the content of that legislation and how far it can and should go.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I lived next to "Glen Eden Sun Club" in lake Elsinore, ca, shopped next to the residents at the grocery store and everything.... Do you know what they wear in public? Clothes. About the same quantity as anyone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are prudish people the only ones that wish to legislate modesty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15542" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Growing up I attended A LOT of Lamaze classes, my mom taught them in our living room. On a weekly basis I watched film strips of child birth and learning the "Bradley method". There was no sense of immodesty since it was rightly ordered toward the purpose. However there is a time and place for naked folk birthing babies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear norms of modesty are governed by custom and limits set by the church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What limits set by the church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, I don't think anything I said was against that. Rather I referenced particularly how all virtues are understood and practiced in a society. <br />However, while that is important to remember how all virtues are in a sense "Justice" nevertheless, when one is trying to distinguish virtues that can be confusing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15546" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T13:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Modesty, it seems to me, is the mean between prudishness and lack of shame. And I agree with John's claim about the norms of modesty, but I think custom is generally a part of legislation broadly understood. Hence, I do not think it is only the prudish who want to legislate in these matters. All parties want to legislate, even when the legislation they want is the absence of such.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T13:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Absence of legislation is legislation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15548" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T13:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Legislation in the broadest sense precedes the particular pieces of legislation that a political community promulgates. Legislation in this sense expresses and establishes the vision of the good of man that informs the particular pieces of legislation. I am thinking here of Socrates' account of the two-fold art of politics (legislation and justice) as set forth in Plato's Gorgias.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In such an understanding, custom, for example, has the force of law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15550" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T13:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This idea is also found in Aristotle's Politics when he speaks of politics as the master art, the architectonic art which looks to the highest good of man and orders all the lesser arts accordingly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What force of law is in custom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15552" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T13:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"We are the makers of custom" H V</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15553" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T13:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My mistake. It is in the opening of the Ethics where Aristotle makes this point about the architectonic art, but the idea is certainly implicit in the Politics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T13:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Henry V tells Kate when he proposes to kiss her, despite French custom to the contrary before a couple is married: "Nice customs curtsy to kings."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it were not for concubisense would modesty exist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-07T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-07T13:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it wouldn't although I think that clothing would.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nudist colonies are ridiculous since they exposing the body to unnecessary risk of damage from the environment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Purity as a virtue is in the control of emotions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-07T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-07T13:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#LetsGoIran: http://www.letsgoiran.com/iran-women-dress-code<br />Iran Women Dress Code | Women Cloth in Iran | Iranian Women Dress | Muslims...<br />LETSGOIRAN.COM|BY IRAN TOUR | IRAN TRAVEL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15561" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-07T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-07T13:24:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not to distract from the modesty discussion, but a while back Michael Beitia was accusing people of being universalist. But if one recalls his original comment that brought up the whole universalism issue, it was an argument for delayed ensoulment because of the high mortality rate of zygotes. But this is obviously a crypto-universalist argument. The unspoken premise is that it would be unfitting for millions of young people to go to hell without a chance at salvation. Hah Beitia! You have been umasked! Molinist! Jesuit! Semi-Pelagian! Liberal! Neo-Modernist! Freemason!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, if modesty is defined as only drawing the right amount of attention at the right moment and in the right way, etc., then of course it would exist before the fall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15563" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T14:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is Andrew Whaley? Bring forth the great penises of western civilization!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15564" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-07T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-07T14:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Recently had a somewhat similar discussion to this one re: responsibility of the state in moral matters - does anyone know how many states still have legislation on the books against adultery? (Answer - quite a few.) And to those who might find that odd, why is it illegal to steal someone's truck but legal to steal his wife? Why is it illegal to destroy someone's finances but legal to destroy her home?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15565" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-07T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-07T14:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's absurd to posit modesty as completely relative to custom. Adam and Eve post-fall had to wear clothes. No human being today is better than them in that respect. Nudist colonies are not okay. Just because you're at the beach, it's all of a sudden okay to walk around in (essentially) your underwear? I think not. Admittedly the line is incredibly hard to find, and does likely vary somewhat from culture to culture, but that doesn't mean there is no line. Also, modesty is clearly about more than clothing, but I find people too often use that as an excuse to act as if it doesn't have a practical reflection in how they dress.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-07T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-07T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As for the legislation aspect, it generally seems like something that the state should not be involved with. But I have no problem with laws against public indecency, as long as they aren't out of control.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15567" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T14:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The statue of David is more immodest in a leopard print thong than naked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15568" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T14:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd also note that the very same "cultural relativism" argument about modesty implies the conclusion that it might be immodest for a Saudi Arabian woman to wear anything less than a burka.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, of Loyola, has raised the point that persuasion is needed to resolve disagreement. This may be true in politics, but not so much when it involves sacred Dogma and sophistry. On Sophistical Refutations points out that the most elementary of sophistries is to agree to a Truth, but just redefine what that Truth means. An example of this is to say you agree with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, and that there is a Dogma, but then redefine what that Dogma teaches. In fact, the Dogma teaches that Mary, the person, body and soul, at the first moment of conception, was Immaculate, free from any privation of sanctifying grace. This is fitting, since Our Lord, the Divine Person, took his human nature from His Holy Mother. Some on this thread have sought to redfine what this means by saying that Mary was Immaculate only in soul but not in body, in order to prove another point about human biology. This is a heresy of course. It is a grave matter. Every Catholic is obliged on pain of sin to understand what the Catholic Dogmas mean and to give assent to them. Mary is the Seat of Wisdom and Mirror of Justice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15570" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T14:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So why are you so critical of our attempts to understand the Catholic Dogmas?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15571" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T14:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bikinis not inherently immodest? As they are actually less fit for function and were soley designe for immodest reasons, I don't by that. Interesting that the Church always said it was inherently immodest for men and women to swim together.... Daniel Lendman<br />Also, I think it is a misreading to say modesty is about bringing undue attention. That is one thing modesty concerns, sure. So, frankly, if you wear victorian clothes to Mass, or eccentric old timey stuff, like cloaks, that is immodest. <br />It would be immodest for a guest at a wedding to dress so as to draw attention and stand out...not immodest, as such, for the bride.<br />It would indeed be immodest to wear ankle length dresses while swimming, and dangerous too. The necessity of function dictates a clothing that would be inappropriate elsewhere. <br />But modesty is more than about undue attention. That is to reduce it to the sin of singularity, or rather as the counter virtue of that sin. It is more than the sin of singularity though. It does have to do with the right dress, at the right time, at the right place, and there are objective norms...the Church was explicit about it not being culturally determined in toto. So I am not so sure that those African tribes could be called anything other than immodest, even though they would not be accused of singularity because of the cultural context.<br />The Church takes this very seriously. Though ignored, we are told to deny the immodestly dressed communion, and in extreme cases throw them out of Church, if this can be done without disrupting the liturgy. And whilst cultural norms were changing, the Church insisted in condemning these norms, not saying that modesty was changing as to its measure, but condemning the changes. But we ignore that<br />How about this statement, nudity is always sinful in public, or in front of a member of the opposite sex, excluding your spouse, except for grave reason? That is taught universally in Catholic morality, but I find even that being doubted. Bizarre how far we have fallen here.<br />And yes the state has a duty to enforce public modesty, as the end of laws are virtue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On a somewhat related note, I urge all of you never to watch Discovery or any of its affiliated channels (Military/American Heroes/Science). They now air commercials almost as bad as the smut commercials of Europe, advertising explicitly porn....ye only late at night, but you call a channel "American Heroes Channel" and then do that...well that is the culture we live in, breathe, and are infected with</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean Robertson, how is modesty absolute and not based upon custom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It probably is partially absolute and partially based upon custom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15575" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T14:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I accept your hug Edward Langley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although clothing (or lack of it) apart from action is not immodest in and of itself. Hence nobody is claiming Christ is immodest on the cross.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's probably better to relate the virtue of modesty to the act of dressing rather than to clothing itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because one of the circumstances of the act of dressing is the occasion for which one dresses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And also, virtue is a habit upon which action follows, not the habit in which a person is. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15580" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-07T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-07T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and theologians make the distinctions necessary for that...but I see none of that here. Even Jone draws attention to the distinction between less decent and indecent parts of the body, and how custom regulates the former's display, e.g.<br />Actually he makes a few more distinctions. The breast, privates, etc are one (pudor, never to be shown without grave cause save to a spouse)....and yes, breast feeding, without cover and in a public place is not modest....<br />The midriff, shoulders, thighs are another distinction<br />And the forearm, leg below the knee, etc another. <br />Custom wholly regulate how much is shown (whether by being bare or by letting its figure through) of the last. The second is mixed, modesty demands that such parts not be used to draw attention, and they are generally considered indecentior. By that, they may, according to custom, be more or less covered in certain circumstances, but it is inherently more fitting that they be covered, and not accentuated. The first is always immodest<br />Daniel Lendman mentions pants. Yes we all know the letter of pope Nicholas to the Bulgars about women wearing pants. Still, while custom may allow such, it is inherently a more feminine and fitting form for them not to, such that even now, in certain situations, it becomes immodest. Imagine going to a white collar event and a woman wears a morning coat and top hat....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15581" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-07T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-07T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All good Catholics should dress like this:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15582" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-07T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-07T15:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eeeeeew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't that the poligimy-fundi group?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15584" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-07T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-07T15:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Woman, wear not tight fitting pants, or thou shalt incur the wrath of doughy men in ill fitting slacks and burgundy dress shirts."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"58. The educators of the young clergy would render a more valuable and useful service, if they would inculcate in youthful minds the precepts of Christian modesty, which is so important for the preservation of perfect chastity and which is truly called the prudence of chastity. For modesty foresees threatening danger, forbids us to expose ourselves to risks, demands the avoidance of those occasions which the imprudent do not shun. It does not like impure or loose talk, it shrinks from the slightest immodesty, it carefully avoids suspect familiarity with persons of the other sex, since it brings the soul to show due reverence to the body, as being a member of Christ[101] and the temple of the Holy Spirit.[102] He who possesses the treasure of Christian modesty abominates every sin of impurity and instantly flees whenever he is tempted by its seductions.<br />59. Modesty will moreover suggest and provide suitable words for parents and educators by which the youthful conscience will be formed in matters of chastity. "Wherefore," as We said in a recent address, "this modesty is not to be so understood as to be equivalent to a perpetual silence on this subject, nor as allowing no place for sober and cautious discussion about these matters in imparting moral instruction."[103] In modern times however there are some teachers and educators who too frequently think it their duty to initiate innocent boys and girls into the secrets of human generation in such a way as to offend their sense of shame. But in this matter just temperance and moderation must be used, as Christian modesty demands.<br />60. This modesty is nourished by the fear of God, that filial fear which is founded on the virtue of profound Christian humility, and which creates in us utter abhorrence for the slightest sin, as Our predecessor, St. Clement I, stated in these words, "he who is chaste in flesh should not be proud, for he should know that he owes the gift of continence to another."[104] How important Christian humility is for the protection of virginity, no one perhaps has taught more clearly than Augustine. "Because perpetual continence, and virginity above all, is a great good in the saints of God, extreme vigilance must be exercised lest it be corrupted by pride. . . The more clearly I see the greatness of this gift, the more truly do I fear lest it be plundered by thieving pride. No one therefore protects virginity, but God Himself Who bestowed it: and 'God is charity.'[105] The guardian therefore of virginity is charity; the habitat of this guardian is humility."[106]"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRA.HTM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15587" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-07T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-07T15:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Woman, if thy neighbor's wife hath not a treadmill nor a gym membership, wear not skirts that showeth thine knees. For he may longeth for thy shapely figure."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm being blocked by Joshua Kenz, my wife had to read to me what he wrote </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or the thread is asploding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15590" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T15:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I don't get blocking on social media: it just deprives you of the context of the arguments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, I am surprised at your lack of documentation. I see no reason to understand modesty differently than the way I suggested. I am pretty sure I am following Thomas on that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15592" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T15:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am also pretty sure that there are no binding demands on Catholics today for men and women to swim separately.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Regardless, I wish we all would go back to tunics and robes. More beautiful, more comfortable, more modest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Double checked, yes, I'm being blocked. So much for rational discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15595" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-07T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-07T15:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woman, looketh upon your neighbor for certain signs. If he be portly of stature and his skin be pale and spotty, be wary! If he weareth ill fitting corduroy, possesseth a leather bound copy of the Silmarillion, and speaks often of his bottles of small batch scotch, these signs shalt cause you to expect comments on the length of your womanly garments. For the frustrations of this man are multitude, and you must pity his lamentations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15596" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T15:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like tunics, too, Daniel! I'm going to get this one: http://www.bodenusa.com/.../Womens-Must-Have-Tunic.html<br />Must Have Tunic<br />Buy the Must Have Tunic now for $98.00. A style you love in a print you’ll hold deer. Just add jeans or leggings for a...<br />BODENUSA.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15597" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but, I'm not supposed to be here right now. So, bye!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15598" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T15:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">$98???!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15599" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or maybe this one...http://www.bodenusa.com/.../Womens-Sweatshirt-Tunic.html<br />Sweatshirt Tunic<br />Buy the Sweatshirt Tunic now for $88.00. A chic new shape that looks relaxed when you feel anything but. Fall...<br />BODENUSA.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15600" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T15:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But 20% off, though!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15601" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, seriously, I'm going now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15602" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T15:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This. http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=mp_s.../186-5906786-9033422...<br />Up2date Fashion Kaftan/Caftan with Safari Sunset Print, Style Caf-76<br />We are the importer and manufacturer of women's...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15603" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-07T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-07T15:44:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Young Catholic men demanding modesty is Dr. Freud's last foothold in contemporary culture. I have a three prong approach for you guys: 1) A devotion to St. Joseph; 2) saltpeter; 3) a hobby that doesn't involve Middle Earth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only $11.99 for all that material! I love a good deal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T15:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's concerning to see that some of these remarkable students of Aristotle and Thomas assert a false understanding of the Faith, including the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, or no Faith at all, or a rationalistic approach to the mysteries of sacred theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(73, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, the clothes that the women wear at TAC are not beautiful at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No sense of beauty and false teachings about the Immaculata. Make the connection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15608" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T15:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've known beautiful tac girls that dressed in beautiful clothing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So have I, but I have also known tac men who espouse lies about the Immaculata.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15610" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T15:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cherish the time I spent at Richard ferrier's house singing praises to Mary from the hymnal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15611" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T15:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cherish the time I spent at Richard Ferrier's house watching the Met's production of Wagner's Ring Cycle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15612" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T15:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">#TalibanChic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15613" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T16:01:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I cherish the time I spent watching the Ring Cycle illegally in someone else's room.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's nice, I cherish the time I had at Ferrier's sipping wine coolers, but Richard Ferrier would not know a metaphor if it bit him on the leg, and that does not discount the error of alum espousing Buddhism, same sex attraction, evolution, and dogmatic heresy about the Immaculata.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15615" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T16:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I married an Armenian. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_15616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I married a Norwegian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15617" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T16:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Taliban truly understood that law ought to be ordered towards virtue.<br />They were trying to make Afghanistan more virtuous via an entire Ministry/governmental department of Virtue until we so rudely stopped them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15618" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T16:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">America! _____ yeah!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15619" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T16:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This Scott fellow is sounding suspiciously Peregrine-ish...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Correct, and ISIL makes Al Quada look like bleeding heart liberals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15621" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T16:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys are all prudes. <br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freikörperkultur<br />Freikörperkultur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Freikörperkultur (FKK) is a German movement whose...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15622" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The joy of being put back into right ratio</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15623" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T16:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd love to read about cycles and trends re prudery and acceptance of the naked human form. Fascinating how things change in art, for starters.<br />Andrew Whaley's Vatican story re sculpture being a case in point. Same thing famously re many paintings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I express concerns about how a TAC scholar of Aristotle and Thomas could assert that the Immaculata was immaculate only in soul but not body, and how another asserts that a human clone is the same thing as an identical twin, and you accuse me of being The Peregrine? I'm shocked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15625" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T16:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If what you just said was true, I'd be the first to back you up. However, you have always insisted on blurring distinctions others have made to distort TAC grads into people who fit your prejudices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15626" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T16:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm used to such tactics from talk show hosts, political bloggers and comboxes, I didn't expect them from a graduate of Christendom college.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15627" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T16:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There have been a number of studies on the trend of skirt length, fall 2014 is back to mid-length and full length. (All though there are full length sheer options available, for those that prefer to show off fluorescent under-Roos )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, did those studies come with graphs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't wish to offend anyone. I just find it alarming and, quite possibly, telling, how a TAC alum on this thread asserted that only Mary's soul, but not Her body, was immaculately conceived -- in order to support a cheap contention. That's crass heresy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15630" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T16:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Implying that the wives of many people in this thread wear ugly clothes is not away to avoid offense, last time I checked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some graphs but mostly photos. I'll find some.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-07T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-07T16:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott - I too was blown away by the conversation re: Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth - as well as the conversation about Genesis and Biblical interpretation in the Catholic Tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T16:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, it's only "crass heresy" if the person asserting it knew the content of the dogma. What was in question at the point was precisely what the content of the dogma was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15634" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T16:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I still don't understand the difficulties people were posing in either conversation: no Catholic, to my knowledge, denied the letter of the dogma of the IC, they generally asked "what does the dogma entail?" Similarly, no Catholic said that Scripture could deceive, they just pointed out that the first couple chapters of Genesis are open to a wide range of interpretations with respect to the literal sense and that they broadly fit what Plato and Platonsts term "myth".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15635" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T16:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, remember, St. Thomas and St. Augustine say that the literal sense of the Scriptures is the sense found once one has interpreted any symbolic speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am blown away by flat landers that deny paleontology, and geoscience. At least our pope is willing to offer salvation to non-earth born people. (If ever found)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15637" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T16:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am always around to blow people away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am pretty sure I am the one that shocked when I used the term myth to talk about Genesis. <br />I also raised certain questions about the way one might understand the IC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15640" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T17:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To re-cap, several of the best and brightest of TAC disputed the Catholic Truth that high metaphysical and moral truths cannot be known by reason alone without some admixture of error. In fact, several of them (I do not want to name names) maligned this Catholuc Truth as heresy. To support this truth -- that grace and revelation are required to guide natural theology with error -- the example of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception was presented. Thomas Aquinas disagreed with this dogma because of his Aristotelean natural theology regarding the conception of man. In response, three of TACs finest argued that 1) Mary was not immaculate in her body; 2) a human person can have three parents, and 3) a human clone is the same thing as an identical twin. You can attack me all you want, but this is demonstrative of a flawed and crass intellectual formation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15641" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T17:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You'd be more credible if you didn't insist that obvious mistakes and distortions weren't obvious mistakes or distortions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T17:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are a crass intellectual, and you are not worth debating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15643" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if you actually stooped to argue rather than merely assert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T17:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could call you a fideist and stop debating you, but I care about truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15645" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been called a lot of things by a lot of people (usually things like, brilliant, kind, patient, wise-beyond-years, etc.), but I have never been called a crass intellectual.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we are primarily having a communication problem, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he's referring to my use of medical terminology above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought we were having a great/interesting discussion the other day when I unintentionally offended you and it all went to pot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, onward and upward, the road goes ever on...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15650" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T17:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is full of firsts. I don't think I've ever been called a universalist before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LOL!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I missed that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go back and look: In response to the position that conception of body and soul occurs at the beginning of life, Daniel Lendman defended post-conception ensoulment and produced an article from pop science which claimed that one person may have three parents, and asserted that a soul could be infused into a zygote after fertilization to create an identical twin because "strange things happen" or words to that effect; 2) in response to a presentation of Dogma, and in defense of ensoulment, Edward Langley presented vulgar biological descriptions of female anatomy and an article claiming that a human clone is the same thing as an identical twin, and 3) in a statement of bald face error, Michael beitia asserted that the Immaculate Conception is immaculate only in body but not soul.<br />This is crass, malformed intellectualism. God bless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15654" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">1a. So, "guilty" I do think (still) that it is a reasonable position for someone to hold that biological conception as it is currently defined is not necessarily the same as what the Church means when it says that the Blessed Virgin was Immaculately conceived. <br />1b. The article about the three parents was brought to bear on a different though related point about how it seems that all that is needed for ensoulment is properly disposed matter. Pater Edmund later linked a fascinating paper by Dr. Michael Bolin who carried this position to a rather extreme point, in my opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15655" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">2a. I find it amusing to think of Edward Langley presenting vulgar descriptions of female anatomy.<br />2b. I still think it is reasonable to say that identical twins are essentially the same as clones. Natural v. articificial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15656" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-07T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-07T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">3. Michael did not intend to suggest that, and clarified his meaning later on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15657" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-07T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-07T17:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only person I remember spouting heresy was that Peregrine fellow. Remember when he contradicted a Vatican I citation twice? The 2nd time he stated that he held a proposition that Vatican I *specifically* anathematized!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15658" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T17:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also remember him explicitly contradicting Vatican I as well, although he might have backpedaled slightly when the source was pointed out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-07T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-07T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^You are right, those were both Vatican I citations (though he may have also contradicted Trent).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basically, this debate boils down to this: several TAC alum maintain the false notion that reason alone -- without grace and revelation -- can attain all natural moral truths and truths of natural theology without any trace of error. This has been the position held by many in this thread, even to the point of taking sections of Vat I out of context. The Church teaches that revelation is necessary to guide and perfect natural theology. This debate also boils down to the fact that several Catholics on this thread do not know what "conception" means, and do not know the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. At least one "scholar" of Aristotle and Thomas from TAC seeks to misdefine the dogma to suit his false claim.<br />This is outrageous and pernicious. May God have mercy on you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15661" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-07T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-07T17:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Nope. Not what anyone said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15662" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T17:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, you're an idiot. Pius IX SPECIFICALLY tells us what conception means. When God, by special creative act, put an immortal, rational, immaculate, soul into Mary's body. Read the encyclyical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do I need to quote it for you again, Perescott?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Ensoulment" obviously happens, as all of the souls of men are specifically created by God. You deny that? Dumbass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T17:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I thought my ideas were radical, but I guess they weren't extreme enough). As to the subject of mixed gender swimming, what are the clothing standards by which men (gender) should follow, who sets the standards and how?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T17:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And thus passes the drive-by tongue-lashing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15667" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T18:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My patience is limited. Expecially as regards intentional and deliberate misreading. I was particularly deferential in the "delayed ensoulment" convo - pointing out that I would have no problem with a different view. But, as usual, context is ignored for the sake of ax-grinding...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-07T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-07T18:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My blown-away-ness was really just that I couldn't tell if anyone had studied the Universal Catechism at all. It's a really important document - and all the topics discussed are treated extensively there, but no one seemed to be citing it. It took an alum of my own generation, Jody Haaf Garneau, to really go there. But then, she is actually working at educating in the Faith as an RCIA coordinator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15669" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T18:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair Marie Pitt-Payne, we have been citing magesterial documents, that are the basis for the CCC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://upload.wikimedia.org/.../640px-Hemline_%28skirt... per request, here is a Wikipedia page on hemline trend http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemline<br />UPLOAD.WIKIMEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15671" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-07T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-07T18:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I understand that, Michael. But Pope Benedict so much wanted the faithful to study the CCC that he attached indulgences to the practice during the Year of Faith. Most of those questions that were being asked on Scriptural interpretation are presented in detail in the CCC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Beitia, I would urge you to talk to a priest about what the Immaculate Conception means. It does not mean, as is your contention, that an immaculate soul was "ensouled" into Mary's non-immaculate body. This position is heresy. The Immaculate Conception, as an infallible Dogma of the Church, means that by a singular act of grace, Mary the Mother of God was preserved from Original Sin in her entirety, body and soul, from the first moment of her conception. Please consult with a holy priest, instead of relying on your interpretation of what you read on the internet. And please refrain from gutteral remarks or vulgar biological references. We are speaking about the Mother of God, after all. Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Immaculate Conception, as an infallible Dogma of the Church, means that by a singular act of grace Mary, the Mother of God, was preserved from Original Sin in her entirety, body and soul, together, at the first moment of her conception. It does not mean, as some have crassly asserted, that Mary's body was NOT free from Original Sin, before an "ensoulment" of an Immaculate soul. This is heresy. This is not the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception, Mary Mother of Jesus, was conceived entirely without Original Sin in one moment. Her divine Son, Jesus the Christ, took his human nature from Her immaculate nature which is and remains immaculate in the fullest sense, body and soul together, from Her Immaculate Conception.<br />O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, what is meant by non-immaculate body? What does it mean in relation to any unborn child? Where in the papal documents quoted above is it mentioned? I dont know what it means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary is Immaculate body and soul from the first moment of her conception. Unfortunately, others on this thread, particularly Michael Beitia, (not me) assert that only Mary's soul is Immaculate, not her body. He claims that her body was not freed from Original Sin until "ensouled" by Her immaculate soul. This claim is childish, heretical and false. I have never made this false claim. Other have.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is the Dogma from Ineffabilis Deus: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Ineffabilis Deus describes the Immaculata as: "singularly holy and most pure in soul and body..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Mary is "entirely free from every stain of sin, and from all corruption of body, soul and mind."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you, Scott. [BTW I dont think Michael denied this but I can see why you might think so.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T19:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ineffabilis Deus cites previous decress about "the infusion [of the soul] into the body." The Dogma, however, prescinds from this view of ensoulment. Ineffabilis Deus asserts that Mary was preserved from all Original Sin, and by singular and special grace was made "entirely free from every stain of sin, and from all corruption of body, soul and mind."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, Michael Beitia did say above that the Immaculate Conception means that only Mary's soul was immaculate and infused [ensouled] into a body. This is NOT the dogma. The reference to infusion in the encyclical Ineffabilis Deus is merely a citation of a prior decree which was not the Dogma. Beitia did say that, and above he maintains that heretical position. So, the reason I think he said this, is because he said it. Also, others on this thread have said that a human clone and an identical twin are the same thing (Ed Langley). Other TAC alum have asserted that all metaphysical truths and truths of natural theology can be known without error by reason alone, even to the point of taking Vat I out of context. This contradicts Catholic Truth which holds that grace and revelation are required to ensure that reason may proceed completely without error in areas pertaining to high moral truths and mataphysics. Others have denied that Thomas rejected the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Still, others have said it is possible for a child to have three parents. Others from TAC have promoted Buddhist practices, and false theories of evolution, and have supported a moral basis for same sex attraction. When questioned on these things, they deny ever making thse claims, even though they are in writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15682" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T20:25:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"And They Were Both Naked...and Were Not Ashamed:" The Nude as the Highest Material Object of the Visual Arts. -- by Mariana Langley. One of the 2014 thesis titles in the slideshow above, just to bring it all full circle again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nudity as the highest material object of visual art? That's really absurd. Nudity is precisely why art conceals nudity. The next thing you know, students will be sunbathing nude as an artform.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15684" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Funny thing to say, seeing as one of the oldest art objects in the world is the Venus of Willendorf.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15685" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry, Scott, I forgot that your interpretation of dogmas is right because you assert it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15686" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Notice too, the difference between "nudity" and "the nude" .... not the same thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15687" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the nude study is really quite central to the history of art. You can't really deny that (though I know you might well try to).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15688" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd also like to note that JPII personally had the clothing painted onto figures in the Vatican's murals removed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, is this how it works? See a picture of the statue of David, pull a verse from the Bible and write thesis? Objects of practice are not the highest. Clearly depictions of the nude are not the highest form of visual art. Clearly, depictions of creation, revelation, Christ, Mary and salvific images are the highest form of visual art.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">OMG. Whatever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15691" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, Mariana Langley's father is an excellent artist (possibly even the greatest living artist, although I might be biased) and Mariana had a first class training in the visual arts long before she went to TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15692" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I have read the whole document. It does not prescind from prior teaching but affirms it clearly. And Beita well cited it. That part clearly refers to the first moment of conception, the infusion of the soul. I dont think it is debatable. The references to corruption and purity do not seem to refer to refer so much to the conception as later or rather her whole life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://jameslangley.com/viadolorosa/<br />Via Dolorosa<br />CONTACT JAMES LANGLEY ⎜ ARTIST<br />JAMESLANGLEY.COM<br />September 7 at 8:41pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview<br />Scott Weinberg And no, Mr. Langley, I am merely restating the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the teaching if Ineffabilis Deus. Mary, Mother of God, was Immaculately Conceived all in one moment, body, soul and mind, at her conception. This is the teaching of the Church, not my reiteration of it. I am merely asserting it again and again because you do not seem to get it or assent to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15694" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:42:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC totally corrupts the youth. I wouldn't be surprised if students snuck out after curfew to swim nude in the ponds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, what does conception mean? that's the crucial question you've been ignoring for hundreds and hundreds of comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">now...to tag or not to tag....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15697" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha ha ha! Yes! Freikorperkultur FTW!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15698" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Monica Murphy, Rebecca Gisla, Laura De</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that is false: Mary was Immaculately Conceived body and soul, all at once, at the very first moment of her being, namely, at her conception. This is what the Church teaches. I am sorry you see it differently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception is the first moment of being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15701" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T20:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apropos of not too much, Mariana also painted gorgeous botanical studies for work study.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15702" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's too late for them to retract our diplomas, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, what do you mean by "first moment of being"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Conception for the Immaculate Conception was the first moment of her immaculate being, entirely, body and soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">First moment of being means the first moment of existence for matter and form. Both immaculate for Mary, in one divine act. This is the Dogma. Not mine, but the Church's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, you're saying that pre-existing matter had absolutely nothing to do with the conception of Mary?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15708" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So much fun, those ponds. As frosh, we left our welcome party (hosted by Vinnie and Steck) thoroughly inebriated and then went to swim in the ponds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T20:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO ONE has dissented from the dogma, only from your interpretation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I'm dating myself ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(28, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, the ponds. Very cold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matter from St. Anne and Joachim, at moment of Mary's conception, became Mary's matter, with form, both immaculate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was St. Joachim really Mary's father?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15714" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. We almost froze. The alcohol kept us warm though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's convenient, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, St. Joachim was Mary's father.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15717" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel O'Connell, you mean helped freeze you faster?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I am simply stating Catholic dogma, not my opinion of it. You can disagree with it if you wish, but at least know what it says.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, but in normal generation being a parent means providing matter (in some sense) to receive the human soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The terror of expulsion is also good for warming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not really Ed, we do not really know that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15722" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. We survived. All these annoying upperclassmen came by and tried to compel us to get out of the ponds, but we didn't listen. "Ah, the immodesty of a co-ed swimming party!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15723" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T20:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never lived. (Actually I got to bathe up by the punchbowls one time, so I lived a little.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, Scott, go ahead and deny 2000+ years of biology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15725" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, co-ed swimming parties are clearly mandated by tradition at the end of Senior year. No one objected in 06.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just don't claim to be reasonable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everybody just has to wear their academic gowns. It's the modest way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I am not denying anything that science has proven, but science has not proven what you think it has proven. Being a parent means providing matter which becomes new matter at conception, at the same time with a soul, called into being at the same moment as the soul is. This is conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I was just thinking of mentioning the burqini, but academic gowns would do just as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15730" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, when you quote the dogma, no problem. When you add words, problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The biological theory of generation you are using is a theory, Ed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, that is true in some sense. But it's also true, and basically philosophy 101, that matter is the only thing that persists through change.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15733" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">like a unisex burqini</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15734" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.eastessence.com/islamic-clothing/modest-swimwear/ !!!<br />BURQINI & SWIMWEAR<br />EastEssence.com offers a wide array of affordable Full-cover swim suits. We offer two types of fabrics. The...<br />EASTESSENCE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am quoting what the Church teaches: Mary is the Immaculate Conception. She was conceived body and soul and mind in one moment. At her conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John. Not understanding dogma. Problem. Not studying dogma at Catholic college. Problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15737" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">dislike! I dislike the burqini!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, your mind is certainly not all there in actuality at conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15739" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our point has been that if "conception" means the first moment in which the human person, Mary, existed, then nothing we've said so far contradicts the dogma you keep quoting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dogma does not say Mary's immaculate soul was infused into pre-existing fallen human matter. To assert this is a problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neither is your body, Catherine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15742" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T20:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing seduces like modesty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15743" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because none of us have ever claimed that Mary, a human person, ever existed with a non-immaculate body or soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15744" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Beitia and others assert that Mary's immaculate soul was infused into pre-existing matter that was not immaculate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beiatia did. See above. Please do not deny your previous claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depends what you mean by "pre-existing", Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15747" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look man, there had to be some pre-existing matter out of which Mary came to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15748" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that matter wasn't Mary's body in any relevant sense until her soul was there, too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope, it means that you claimed only her soul was immaculate. It is clear you do not know what the Dogma means. What do you think it means?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Her soul did not make her body immaculate. Got it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15751" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you mean that matter had been prepared to receive Mary's soul, then we say that there must have been some preexisting matter that was marked out by natural causes to be the matter for a new person. If you mean the matter that is the matter of a human person, none of us has said that that matter could exist before the creation of Mary's soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you mean Ed? What does the Dogma mean to you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Techinically, "human body" names the ensouled body considered as distinct from the human soul informing it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without out really being distinct.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia said that Mary's immaculate soul informed what was the non-immaculate matter that became her body. This is not the Dogma. But, pray tell, what do you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If that's the body you keep talking about, we all (or most) agree that that came to be at the moment her soul was created.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you even consider them as distinct?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, please tell us what you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15759" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T20:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, heroic efforts and everything, but I don't think this is going anywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15760" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T20:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the problem with saying that was when the sperm met the egg?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15761" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T20:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHAT IS IMMACULATE matter? I missed that dogma</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T20:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, please tell us what you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-07T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-07T20:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I didn't read all the comments above, but I can go do so now...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15764" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">None of us has any real objection to that, Catherine, our main contention is that the dogma doesn't commit us to any particular view of the relation between the fertilization of the egg and the coming-to-be of the person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. the question of "when is the soul created" is not bound to a specific view of what happens in fertilization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, should I catch up? Did anything interesting happen today besides the modesty stuff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15767" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, it means that when a person, Mary, came to be, she was free from all stain of sin in both body and soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not that I can recall, although a distinction was made between modesty as conceived as a virtue of clothing vs. modesty conceived as a virtue governing the act of dressing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I suppose that that's just "modesty stuff"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are still waiting for Edward Langley to state what he thinks the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means. (It means that all of Mary came into existence at once, body and soul, matter and form, and this was her conception and she was, at this first moment of her existence in both body and soul, by a special act of grace, preserved from sin, body and soul... not just soul.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-07T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-07T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz posted some thoughts on ensoulment, too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just did four or five comments ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, just saw that...it's long....I guess I'll read it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And ensoulment is a theory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Thomas opposed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception because of his theory of ensoulment. This proves that some metaphysical truths may not be held without error by reason alone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">False. He may have given arguments from his theory of ensoulment, but as we've repeated over and over, it doesn't seem that his theory of generation entails a position on the Immaculate Conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-07T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-07T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg, Ed said what his view was like three comments up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Scott, was Mary saved by Christ's Passion and Death?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, error implies an already-defined dogma. Duh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15780" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">16000!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not false at all Ed. And what do you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means. We are waiting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang it! I wanted to be 16000!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why don't you stop and read the various comments I've just posted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15784" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">my timing is awesome but I can't count...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15785" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you won't read what I write, I'll just have to start antagonizing Samantha about how Aristotle really did think that God was at least one person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">since I first posted "14000" before I realized my error. darn you, pumpkin ale...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or maybe we could talk about Aristotle's theory of the will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can edit it, Nina. <br />So I would just like to open up the thread here to some NFL talk. Did anyone see the Cowboys debacle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15789" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, what do you think the Immaculate Conception means? Thomas denied the Immaculate Conception because he thought that Mary's soul was immaculate enough and would have made the rest of her fully holy. This is beitia's position, and your's it seems. This is not what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that Mary was immaculate in body and soul at the same moment by the same one act, and this was the first moment of her being in both body and soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NFL is officially off-topic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15791" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm only repeating myself once: "Scott, it means that when a person, Mary, came to be, she was free from all stain of sin in both body and soul."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley does not know is Doctrine, tsk tak, and I have go go say the Rosary. Good night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15793" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">since there were ladies talking about fancy boots on here yesterday, I am not sure anything is legitimately off topic...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15794" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there anything legitimately off-topic? The ponds were okay, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15795" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Word, Nina.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Ed, that is right. Good man. Good night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We permitted the discussion of boots on this principle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU<br />Harry Enfield - Women know your limits<br />Hilarious clip from Harry Enfield and Chums<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />September 7 at 9:11pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Daniel P. O'Connell What are you guys, like the prefects now? The enforcers? I don't like this turn of events at all ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15798" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read Mr. Kenz's essay about Thomas on ensoulment and am more confused now. Might be the whiskey sour</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone have a good brandy recommendation? Under $30?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also have read what he wrote about the virgin birth and I have so many more things to say about that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15801" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">J/k, didn't actually read it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15802" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Courvoisier is just about $30 and is drinkable, at the very least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not really a brandy person myself ... I'll have to pass ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christian Brothers isn't bad for mixing, but I'm not sure if it's exactly good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Get yourself some whiskey, girl</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15806" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">brandy is for egg nog only</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Ed, "personhood" does not prove the theory of ensoulment into pre-existing matter. The Dogma does not imply this at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15808" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cheap brandys, however, tend to be much worse than cheap rums or whiskeys.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15809" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">true dat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can get solid whiskey for $30, depending on the state you live in</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15811" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Except Scoresby, Scoresby just shouldn't be drunk).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15812" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It tastes like cheap scotch with liquid smoke added for "peatiness"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am starting on brandy and then we will see if I can get over to whiskey at some point. not a huge liquor person, brandy is the only thing I've liked so far...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott is an idiot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Get a nice bourbon or something. Those are sweet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find bourbon harder to like than Jameson or Johnny Walker.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15817" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ get out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like bourbon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15819" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">He keeps asserting I said something I didn't, because he has an ax to grind<br />1) Ensoulment happens: God creates all human souls and infuses them into matter<br />2) BVM was free from sin from the first moment of her conception: that is when God placed her soul into matter<br />3) when that was is subject to speculation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It just took me longer to like it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15821" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">He refuses to engage me, but smears me when I'm busy watching Dallas get blown out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, it might be dangerous to say "creates all human souls and infuses them into matter". I've heard people fuss about how this isn't what happens, but rather God creates the soul in the matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15823" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bulleit Bourbon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fine. The creation of the soul is special act of God independent of biology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15825" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Ed, nobody "permitted" me to do anything! I talk about what I want on this thread!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15826" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^that's what you think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We'll let you think that .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15828" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">all is permitted by special act of TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15829" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">whoa, scary synchronicity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15830" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If nobody stopped me when I brought up skinny dipping, I think I'm pretty much off the leash</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the jokes write themselves Nina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Notice how we just sorta moved right along, though?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15833" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Discuss: Google Earth has ruined the future of nude sunbathing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15834" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:24:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I said "hymen" like, 100 times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15835" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That scared Scott away for a time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15836" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-07T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-07T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I must have missed a lot over the last few days...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15837" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The funny thing is, last night my wife and I went for our evening constitutional and, while discussing, we came up with some very good reasons for ensoulment to be contemporaneous with fertilization. <br />But if I'm just supposed to be wrong.... whatever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15838" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:25:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also said "sexist" and "misogyny"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15839" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^2 of my favorite topics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15840" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, you need to bust out with "Patriarchy" I don't think they'd take it well from me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's up next, I've been saving it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good work. Back to football (and nachos)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-07T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-07T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and beer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What, you think they'd take it well from me? Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15845" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T21:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gendernorming? More like TNETnorming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just saw online that the Broncos are giving the Colts a good working over.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15847" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-07T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-07T21:28:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is beyond offensive. It contains offensive and non-offensive within it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15848" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woohooo!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aufhebung! (Hegel, natch)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I've got this article I'm supposed to be editing ... *procrastinates*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15851" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:33:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm waiting for Caleb to be done carefully curating his "10 books that moved you" before he posts it to facebook. He does not know what "off the top of your head" means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Procrastination is the best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I told him he couldn't put "Summa Theologiae" on the list but he disagrees</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15855" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's like saying Corpus of Aristotle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15856" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle's Corpus, I mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15857" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">too much. it's cheating</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it's actually a book, and was intended to be a unit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15859" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but it's soooooOOOOOoooOOOOOoo long</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15860" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Could he have put Churchill's "History of the English-speaking People?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.amazon.com/History.../dp/0880294272/ref=sr_1_2...<br />A History of the English-Speaking Peoples (The Birth of Britain / The New World /...<br />AMAZON.COM<br />September 7 at 9:39pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Samantha Cohoe I'm guessing you put it on your "10 books that moved me"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15862" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One last thing, Ed. There is no mention of "person" in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, and Thomas rejected the Dogma for several flawed reasons. Study your Dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15863" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see Samantha's point though. If I were to focus in on what part of the Summa really stuck with me I would say something like ST, I. QQ 1-13. I admit it sounds awkward, but still ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15864" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I'm sure you don't want to say that Churchill's history has anything like the immense breadth of topics that the Summa has</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15865" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best thing I ever did after leaving TAC was reading through the first 10 or so questions in the Prima-Secundae (the parts on man's last end and the parts on the stages of a voluntary act).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15866" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The one giant lacuna in TAC's philosophy course is a discussion of the appetites from the perspective of natural philoosphy. While the ST isn't exactly natural phil., that section helped me clarify how the appetites work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15867" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I kinda wish we read it instead of the Treatise on Law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still waiting, Scott, for your discussion of how all men were saved by Christ's Passion and how that works in the case of the Immaculate Conception.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15869" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-07T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-07T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I can't put off editing this paper any longer: I promised the author I would give him my comments by the morning. I'll stop back later if I finish early enough ... TTFN.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's funny Ed. That was the same reason why Thomas rejected the Immaculate Conception. Terms like ensoulment, fertilization and personhood, and crass physiology from hip chicks, have nothing to do with the Dogma. You seem like medieval neanderthalists. You should allow your bodies to be ensouled by Dogma. Lol.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You realize that it's heretical to deny that all men were saved by Christ's Passion and Death, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15872" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"hip chicks?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15873" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(BTW, don't read that in a universalist sense, I was slightly sloppy in my formulation.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15874" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">crass physiology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15875" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I meant was "it's heretical to deny that everyone who is saved is saved by Christ's Passion and Death."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15876" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is he talking about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15877" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christ died for all men, so in that sense you're right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15878" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He means talking about female anatomy in relation to the dogma of the virgin birth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15879" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who're the "hip chicks?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15880" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he might have meant you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And maybe Marie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">huh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15883" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T21:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I wasn't claiming the "light through glass" stuff had anything to do with IC dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15884" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T21:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I think he might be confusing our discussion of the Virgin Birth with that of the IC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15885" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T22:00:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best Hodor voice. Hymen, Hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, the Immaculate Conception was a grace wrought through Christ's sacrifice and, Catholics, please do not speak of physiology in relation to the mysteries of the Most Holy Mother of God. This is obscene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15887" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:01:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, did you come from the Victorian Era in a time machine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15888" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas does speak of physiology in reference to such things and the Church's Tradition is full of disputes about exactly what physiological happenings are implied by the dogmas about the Blessed Virgin and the incarnation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15889" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This doctrine from Trent raises the single greatest difficulty for defending the Immaculate Conception: "The causes of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one's disposition and cooperation.<br />For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15890" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-07T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-07T22:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I am resolved not to get sucked into the vortex, but re: the whiskey discussion upthread: http://www.thedailybeast.com/.../your-craft-whiskey-is...<br />Your ‘Craft’ Whiskey Is Probably From a Factory Distillery in Indiana<br />The artisan whiskey industry has a big secret—many of...<br />THEDAILYBEAST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-07T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-07T22:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil No idea how reliable the article is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Mary never was subject to sin, she would not have needed salvation and thus Christ would not have justified her but Trent teaches us that every man must be justified by Christ's Passion and Death.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scotus's solution is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's coherent: he says that we must divide the instant so that at one and the same moment (that of her conception) she was subject to sin and neading salvation and saved from all taint of sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15894" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T22:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"infused with dogma": this may explain his understanding of Faith enlightening reason which I understand primarily as the dogmas we assent to safeguarding us from errors. Scott seems to regard it as an infusion of grace that protects one from error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15895" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T22:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine-- you're just a big spoil sport</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed Langley, you seem to be a clone of Neanderthal and medieval man. Did they use pre-existing matter in your creation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15897" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T22:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm actually deeply troubled by this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read Dogma; put away the brandy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15899" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T22:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The whiskey thing, I mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15900" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm pretty sure it's true, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15901" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T22:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, fyi, I am not a "hip chick"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15902" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T22:07:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've got three kids and a mini-van.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15903" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Three is just about the limit for "normal people", Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(66, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has never been Catholic tradition to discuss Mary in the crude and presumptuous way that you do. That is tragic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15905" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-07T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-07T22:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, if all those Fathers Marie was talking about actually said all that stuff about the Virgin Birth, then it was in fact Catholic tradition</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15906" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's some Aquinas:' On the contrary, Augustine says (Serm. de Nativ. [Supposititious), addressing himself to the Virgin-Mother: "In conceiving thou wast all pure, in giving birth thou wast without pain."<br />I answer that, The pains of childbirth are caused by the infant opening the passage from the womb. Now it has been said above (28, 2, Replies to objections), that Christ came forth from the closed womb of His Mother, and, consequently, without opening the passage. Consequently there was no pain in that birth, as neither was there any corruption; on the contrary, there was much joy therein for that God-Man "was born into the world," according to Isaiah 35:1-2: "Like the lily, it shall bud forth and blossom, and shall rejoice with joy and praise."<br />Reply to Objection 1. The pains of childbirth in the woman follow from the mingling of the sexes. Wherefore (Genesis 3:16) after the words, "in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children," the following are added: "and thou shalt be under thy husband's power." But, as Augustine says (Serm. de Assumpt. B. Virg., [Supposititious), from this sentence we must exclude the Virgin-Mother of God; who, "because she conceived Christ without the defilement of sin, and without the stain of sexual mingling, therefore did she bring Him forth without pain, without violation of her virginal integrity, without detriment to the purity of her maidenhood." Christ, indeed, suffered death, but through His own spontaneous desire, in order to atone for us, not as a necessary result of that sentence, for He was not a debtor unto death.<br />Reply to Objection 2. As "by His death" Christ "destroyed our death" [Preface of the Mass in Paschal-time, so by His pains He freed us from our pains; and so He wished to die a painful death. But the mother's pains in childbirth did not concern Christ, who came to atone for our sins. And therefore there was no need for His Mother to suffer in giving birth.<br />Reply to Objection 3. We are told (Luke 2:7) that the Blessed Virgin herself "wrapped up in swaddling clothes" the Child whom she had brought forth, "and laid Him in a manger." Consequently the narrative of this book, which is apocryphal, is untrue. Wherefore Jerome says (Adv. Helvid. iv): "No midwife was there, no officious women interfered. She was both mother and midwife. 'With swaddling clothes,' says he, 'she wrapped up the child, and laid Him in a manger.'" These words prove the falseness of the apocryphal ravings.'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15907" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:14:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, anyways, it's just silly to think that statements about bodily processes are too dirty to attribute to the Blessed Mother or Christ who "became like us in all things but sin."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15908" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-07T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-07T22:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The first question you should ask yourself before charging someone with obscenity is "what was the occasion for this saying?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15909" class="entry odd" data-likes="15" data-name="Michael Bolin" data-date="2014-09-07T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Bolin at 2014-09-07T22:36:00 with 15 likes</div>
<p class="text">People, why do you keep responding to this man?<br />He has repeatedly and in the clearest terms shown that he is either incapable of or not interested in participating in rational discussion.<br />He has interrupted actual conversation with baseless slurs and accusations of heresy, thus revealing his genuine interest, trolling.<br />He has needlessly denigrated the Church's Common Doctor in fruitless attempts to support his risible fideistic theology, and rejected the notion of faith seeking understanding in pursuit of the same end.<br />He has made absurd displays of purported piety in order to cast aspersions on legitimate and honest theological inquiry.<br />He has repeatedly and baselessly insulted the men and women in this conversation as concerns their education, faith, and moral character.<br />I realize that there is some occasional measure of entertainment to be found in his tirades, but to encourage this behavior seems more likely to be a spiritual hindrance than a help to him. The man needs not argument but prayer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-08T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-08T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, Michael, you sound like a very proud fellow. I just find it tragic when Catholics scream like furies at the smallest of perceived slights, yet you use the most vulgar terminology when speaking of the Theotokos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15911" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T22:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, why do you feel it necessary to attack people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15912" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-07T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-07T22:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET ≠ DNFTT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15913" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-07T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-07T22:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael's is a well measured response. Scott when it comes to certain dogmas you make unfounded attacks of heresy. Your other posts are at times amusing and even insightful. But if you continue attacking, I will soon block you. I dont doubt your Faith but your zeal is misplaced.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15914" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Bolin" data-date="2014-09-07T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Bolin at 2014-09-07T22:53:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">There have been any number of fascinating topics on this thread that could serve to keep it never-ending without feeding the troll. Even apart from concern for his good, it's a pity to see these derailed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-07T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-07T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I attack no one. Thomas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception. Others on this thread have stated opinion about the Dogma which is clearly false. Some of the language you have used to discuss the Virgin Mary is vulger and inappropriate. You seem to embrace your own frail understanding of medieval theologians over the guidance and Dogmas of Holy Mother the Church. This is hardly Catholic. So why do you attack me, why do you not just censor me, and prove you are hardly American as well?<br />I am too busy to discuss the sacred with crude people like some of you.<br />May God have mercy on you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15916" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T23:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I attack no one" and "you are hardly American" in the same paragraph. <br />Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-07T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please explain anything that was written, "vulgar"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15918" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-07T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-07T23:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hymen???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-08T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-08T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The vulgar physiological descriptions used in your discussion of the mysteries of the Blessed Virgin Mary are inappropriate. I have been attacked by several TAC alum for pointing out that Thomas erred in his understanding of the Immaculate Conception. This is not a denigration of Thomas, but fact. Others on this thread have claimed or implied that the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception is necessitated by "ensoulment." This is false. Ensoulment is a theory. The Dogma is de fide. For all this, I have been personally attacked and threatened with censorship. The threat is whimpy, and un-American.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15920" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T00:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not seeing how "hymen" and "passage to/from the womb" is any less vulgar than "circumcise the foreskin of your hearts". Actually, in the literal sense of the word "vulgar", "hymen" isn't vulgar at all--it's medical terminology. Nobody's talking about popping cherries, which would be crass and vulgar. In any case, I don't know how a discussion of virginity before, DURING, and after birth can occur without some discussion of physiological logistics. Always been curious about Catholic teaching on this. Thoughts, Samantha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-08T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-08T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is enitirely inappropriate, sad and pathetic. God have mercy on you. It is clear that you have had very little introduction to Catholic theological and dogmatic traditions, especially those which involve the Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth, and how to discuss. Social media is no excuse. You talk trash like a bunch of miscreants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15922" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-08T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-08T00:03:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, go back under your bridge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-08T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-08T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, go to hell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15924" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-08T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-08T00:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hymen. Hymen. Hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen. HYYYYMMMMMEEEEENNNN!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-08T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hodor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15926" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-08T00:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Theological topic: when Christ was presented in the temple, was his foreskin incorruptible?<br />Is it hidden in some momentary tabernacle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15927" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-08T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-08T00:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, if Scott Weinberg drops dead from shock, I blame Jeff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15928" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-08T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-08T00:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Scott thinks that, in general, it is inappropriate to try to understand mysteries both singly and in relation to each other. Thus, bringing in physiological details to discuss the implications of the Virgin Birth is "obscene."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-08T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-08T00:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, did you go to or graduate from Thomas Aquinas College?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-08T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HahahahHa.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-08T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-08T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, I think that question is probably inappropriate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-08T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-08T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mostly because I don't see any consideration of it in theological authorities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-08T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But interesting..... For a better crowd to discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15934" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-08T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-08T00:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your nuts, Ed. We could go 2 maybe three thousand comments on that question--with a few breaks to talk about skirts and Latin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-08T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok so it isn't theological per se</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-08T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-08T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Ed, bringing such terminology into discussion on the Topic of the Theotokos is by definition obscene and inappropriate and not funny in any way. Shame on you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-08T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-08T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My main objection (upon reflection) to Jeff's question had to do with making jokes about holy things: the question of the consequences of the Virgin Birth has a long history in theological authorities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15938" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-08T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-08T00:18:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">One day, someone is going to tell me that Scott Weinberg is a hilarious prankster, and that all of his pedantic, boorish bullying is just a giant charade. He's really just a great guy who pretends to be horrible as a way to entertain his old buddies on Facebook. I kind of think that might be the case. Can anyone confirm or deny? Until then, I can't figure any of this out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15939" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T00:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of vulgar, in the Hebrew text where it is talking about slaying all the men of Jericho the text literally says, "Slay all those who urinate against the wall."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15940" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T00:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh those Semites!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15941" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-08T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-08T00:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Penance is being tagged in a comment on TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15942" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-08T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-08T00:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Scott you haven't been to the campus lately. The women wear beautiful clothes. I didn't even see one jumper nor a denim skirt. I was most impressed by the upgrade in the women's fashions since the '90's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15943" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T00:33:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Go to Hell," is pretty much the worst thing that one could desire for another man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-08T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-08T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No Aaron -- he is for real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15945" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T00:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly, in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God. Col. 3:16</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-08T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kathleen Wilson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15947" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Kathleen Wilson" data-date="2014-09-08T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kathleen Wilson at 2014-09-08T00:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, heck. Last time I checked out this thread everyone was playing so nicely together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15948" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-08T00:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, as I said before, I did go there and my senior thesis was on Aristotle's 10th category and Genesis, in particular on rationality necessitating clothing before the fall... But not for modesty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15949" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-08T00:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, but you've missed so much in your absence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15950" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-08T00:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hi Kathy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15951" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-08T00:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kathy, start reading. Lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15952" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T00:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian Dragoo or someone else should post a link to his talk on vulgar humor, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15953" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-08T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-08T00:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm so proud of you all. Did I miss the 16000 party?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-08T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-08T01:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, very yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15955" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T02:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T02:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just scrolled up 1,000 comments (!!!) to find the original hymen conversation, and found the relevant magisterial quotations - thanks - in which the possibility of being born without a hymen at all isn't raised. Developments of modern science should, to some extent, affect our understanding of the Faith. The phrase 'in partu' perhaps reflects a lack of understanding about variations in female anatomy, variations including the hymen's presence/non-presence, size, thickness, shape, and flexibility. The Schoolmen (and, perhaps, comments on TNET) ASSUME a universal presence, thickness, flexibility, and shape of the hymen, and must therefore address the issues which a birth-through-hymen must entail. But as far as I know, it isn't an article of faith to believe that Mary was born with any sort of hymen at all--which makes the whole doctrine of perpetual virginity a lot easier to accept.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15956" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T03:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T03:03:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">And lest anyone think the above comment is too shocking for rational discourse, let's bear in mind that our bodies are "fearfully and wonderfully made", and that knowledge and discussion about the female body in no way precludes respect for its structure and power.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Monica, interestingly, the Church was very deliberate in defining the perpetual Virginity of the Mary thus: "virgin before, during and after giving birth." It follows then, that even the physical (though not necessary) signs of her virginity are present.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think in defining the doctrine thus, there is something wonderful, regardless of the misunderstandings of the council fathers had with respect to the intricacies of female anatomy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would argue that the physical signs of the blessed virgin more perfectly express her role as Sign ("sacrament"), Image, and Exemplar of the Church.<br />"And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut" Ezk 44:2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-08T03:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-08T03:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, I was on my way to Mass. I do want you to think hard about what customary standards imply about a culture's stance on sexuality. You don't get the customs we have without being "sexually liberated" Same went for the Hawaiians and their promiscuous sexuality<br />Or you sure you want a boatload of documentation? I don't know want to quote from St. Thomas, as I presume you read the pertinent passages and somehow missed what I, and say Prümmer or Jone or Merkelbach or Tanquery saw in them<br />Would you accept any of them? If not, did you want the Vatican's declarations?<br />Would you dismiss the Congregation of the Council's Decree of January 12, 1930? Or the Congregation for Religious, August 23,1928, which explicitly condemns the current custom in dress....see if custom makes it not immodest, then Benedict XV was such an idiot in Sacra Propediem, condemning things that had ceased to be immodest, because custom.<br />Frankly I am shocked by you taking such a modernist take here. And I am not using that word lightly<br />For further benefit, I will reproduce what Prümmer says. Jone is clear, but I haven't him handy and he does tend to be legalistic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-08T03:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-08T03:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And bikinis were explicitly designed to be immodest, even if the sin of singularity is what you reduce modesty too....underwear is often more modest. A bikini not only shows a lot, it is seductive in the little it hides and is made to draw the eye. There is a reason there are nude and topless joints and bikini joints too....all places to ogle women. But anyhow, found the Prümmer...give me a bit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, thank you for the homework (and I do not mean that flippantly) I will take a look at those texts when I can find them and when I get a chance. <br />I am glad, at least, that you would be shocked that I would have a modernist take. Scott would just assume it of me. I only ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt for now as I am earnest in my pursuit of the truth and I am willing to be corrected if I am in error. <br />My position is largely based on the following texts which I am putting in English for the sake of others:<br />I answer that, It is not in the outward things themselves which man uses, that there is vice, but on the part of man who uses them immoderately. This lack of moderation occurs in two ways. First, in comparison with the customs of those among whom one lives; wherefore Augustine says (Confess. iii, 8): "Those offenses which are contrary to the customs of men, are to be avoided according to the customs generally prevailing, so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of any, whether citizen or foreigner. For any part, which harmonizeth not with its whole, is offensive." Secondly, the lack of moderation in the use of these things may arise from the inordinate attachment of the user, the result being that a man sometimes takes too much pleasure in using them, either in accordance with the custom of those among whom he dwells or contrary to such custom. Hence Augustine says (De Doctr. Christ. iii, 12): "We must avoid excessive pleasure in the use of things, for it leads not only wickedly to abuse the customs of those among whom we dwell, but frequently to exceed their bounds, so that, whereas it lay hidden, while under the restraint of established morality, it displays its deformity in a most lawless outbreak."<br />In point of excess, this inordinate attachment occurs in three ways. First when a man seeks glory from excessive attention to dress; in so far as dress and such like things are a kind of ornament. Hence Gregory says (Hom. xl in Ev.): "There are some who think that attention to finery and costly dress is no sin. Surely, if this were no fault, the word of God would not say so expressly that the rich man who was tortured in hell had been clothed in purple and fine linen. No one, forsooth, seeks costly apparel" (such, namely, as exceeds his estate) "save for vainglory." Secondly, when a man seeks sensuous pleasure from excessive attention to dress, in so far as dress is directed to the body's comfort. Thirdly, when a man is too solicitous [*Cf. Question [55], Article [6]] in his attention to outward apparel.<br />Accordingly Andronicus [*De Affectibus] reckons three virtues in connection with outward attire; namely "humility," which excludes the seeking of glory, wherefore he says that humility is "the habit of avoiding excessive expenditure and parade"; "contentment" [*Cf. Question [143], Objection [4]], which excludes the seeking of sensuous pleasure, wherefore he says that "contentedness is the habit that makes a man satisfied with what is suitable, and enables him to determine what is becoming in his manner of life" (according to the saying of the Apostle, 1 Tim. 6:8): "Having food and wherewith to be covered, with these let us be content;"—and "simplicity," which excludes excessive solicitude about such things, wherefore he says that "simplicity is a habit that makes a man contented with what he has."<br />In the point of deficiency there may be inordinate attachment in two ways. First, through a man's neglect to give the requisite study or trouble to the use of outward apparel. Wherefore the Philosopher says (Ethic. vii, 7) that "it is a mark of effeminacy to let one's cloak trail on the ground to avoid the trouble of lifting it up." Secondly, by seeking glory from the very lack of attention to outward attire. Hence Augustine says (De Serm. Dom. in Monte ii, 12) that "not only the glare and pomp of outward things, but even dirt and the weeds of mourning may be a subject of ostentation, all the more dangerous as being a decoy under the guise of God's service"; and the Philosopher says (Ethic. iv, 7) that "both excess and inordinate defect are a subject of ostentation."<br />II-IIae, Q.169 a. 1.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Additionally, <br />In the next article:<br />"But those women who have no husband nor wish to have one, or who are in a state of life inconsistent with marriage, cannot without sin desire to give lustful pleasure to those men who see them, because this is to incite them to sin. And if indeed they adorn themselves with this intention of provoking others to lust, they sin mortally; whereas if they do so from frivolity, or from vanity for the sake of ostentation, it is not always mortal, but sometimes venial. And the same applies to men in this respect. Hence Augustine says (Ep. ccxlv ad Possid.): "I do not wish you to be hasty in forbidding the wearing of gold or costly attire except in the case of those who being neither married nor wishful to marry, should think how they may please God: whereas the others think on the things of the world, either husbands how they may please their wives, or wives how they may please their husbands, except that it is unbecoming for women though married to uncover their hair, since the Apostle commands them to cover the head." Yet in this case some might be excused from sin, when they do this not through vanity but on account of some contrary custom: although such a custom is not to be commended."<br />However, the standards for what excites men to lust are, in many ways, culturally and societally relevant. Not absolutely, but largely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would conclude, therefore, that even Bikinis on the beach, nowadays, do not do much to incite men to lust. But even here one must be careful, because not all Bikinis are the same. Some certainly seemed designed to do exactly that (a cursory glance at headlines from the UK's Daily Mail confirms this). <br />However, I only meant to express by the word "Bikini" swimming attire for women with brief style bottoms and bra styled tops with exposed middles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In conclusion I would say that you are right to identify many of "pop fashion" trends to be motivated by a sense of "sexual liberation." I would hold that it has largely become normative in our society that it is acceptable to incite the opposite sex to lust through dress and action. Such dress and behavior must be avoided. <br />As said above, however, many things which incite to lust are simply culturally relative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-08T03:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-08T03:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nevermind, didn't find the Prümmer....where on eath does he deal with modesty?<br />Anyhow, the Jone distinction (around para 146 iirc) is between indecent (those parts Aquinas refers to as pudor), less becoming and always becoming. Those parts that are pudor, the privates e.g., it is always a mortal sin to expose to another of another sex, unless for grave reason or to one's spouse. Also inherently immodest to draw attention to those parts.<br />As I said, don't have Jone handy, but I am certain of the distinction and such, often in other terms, I have found elsewhere....maybe I can pick another moralist if you would prefer...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T03:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T03:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least PM me if you find the relevant passage. I would be very interested in the argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15968" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-08T04:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-08T04:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It might have to be tomorrow....my computer is balking at PDFs right now, and most of my hardbacks are in storage/<br />In the meantime, I finally found Pius XII here (many people quote him on this, but never give a citation)<br />"It is always difficult to indicate with universal norms the border-line between seemliness and shamelessness because the moral evaluation of attire depends on many factors. However, the so-called relativity of fashions with respect to times, places, persons, and education is not a valid reason to renounce a priori a moral judgment on this or that fashion which, for the time being, violates the limits of normal decency....<br />... Yet, no matter how broad and changeable the relative morals of styles may be, there is always an absolute norm to be kept after having heard the admonition of conscience warning against approaching danger: style must never be a proximate occasion of sin....<br />...The garment must not be evaluated according to the estimation of a decadent or already corrupt society, but according to the aspirations of a society which prizes the dignity and seriousness of its public attire.<br />It is often said almost with passive resignation that fashions reflect the customs of a people. But it would be more exact and much more useful to say that they express the decision and moral direction that a nation intends to take: either to be shipwrecked in licentiousness or maintain itself at the level to which it has been raised by religion and civilization.....<br />The sound consistency of your principles will be put to the test by the so-called modern spirit, which cannot bear hindrance. And it will be tried by the same indifference of many toward the moral consideration of styles. The most insidious of sophisms are usually repeated to justify immodesty and seem to be the same everywhere. One of these resurrects the ancient saying ab assuetis non fit passio ("The passions are not aroused by things we are accustomed to") in order to brand as old-fashioned the rebellion of honest people against fashions which are too bold. Must it perhaps be shown how out of place the ancient saying is in such questions?<br />When We spoke of the absolute limits to be defended in the relativism of style, We mentioned the unfounded character of another fallacious opinion according to which modesty is no longer appropriate in the contemporary era which has now become free of all useless and ruinous scruples.<br />It can certainly be conceded that there are different degrees of public morality according to the times, the nature, and the conditions of the civilization of individual peoples. But this does not invalidate the obligation to strive for the ideal of perfection and is not a sufficient reason to renounce the high degree of morality that has been achieved, and which manifests itself precisely in the great sensitivity with which consciences regard evil and its snares.<br />http://www.sspxasia.com/.../Catholic_Morality/Fashions.htm (I wish there were a better site....I found it in AAS too, but why translate that when another has done it?)<br />Maybe this makes it clear that while I am certainly with you on some points, an article of clothing, designed to tantalize, and in accordance with that end was named after the site of the testing of the hydrogen bomb, and which is less functional and worse as swimwear than say one-piece or even more modest two pieces<br />I figure I have no warrant to quote from the American bishops, who did explicitly mention men exiting the house without a shirt on as horrible depravity....seeing as I mock those same bishops for condemning ballroom dancing.<br />ETA: It does seem you may be using bikini to mean two-piece. I am not sure what sense the Church had in mind when, among very few specific fashions that it did so with, it condemned bikinis (and hot pants). It was with the first Miss World thing, and Pius XII helped get the garment outlawed in many countries.<br />SSPXAsia.com: Fashions<br />[1] Reported in Osservatore Romano, November 9, 1957. Italian text. Translation based in part on one released by N.C.W.C. News Service.<br />SSPXASIA.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T04:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T04:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, the notion of an intact hymen as a sign of physical virginity has largely been discredited by medical professionals precisely for the reasons I've noted. According to recent studies, for example, less than half of all women bleed when they first have sex, and even an examination of the hymen itself by a physician cannot determine whether sex has occurred. Thus, the presence (or non-presence) of a hymen is not a physical sign of virginity in any woman, including the BVM. The articulation of the doctrine "during birth", as far as I can tell, stems from a) a misunderstanding of female anatomy, and b) a dangerous association between virginity and the presence of the hymen. If, however, we think more carefully about the phrase "virgo INTACTA . . . in partu", we can develop a slightly different understanding of the doctrine. "Intacta" meaning "untouched" by any man is not problematic for me. And "intacta" meaning "whole" or "unbroken" is not problematic if we dismiss the presence of a hymen altogether, or if we consider that the hymen can stretch, or that the female body is capable of a tortuous degree of stretching and changing during birth. For Mary's labor to happen painlessly and without tearing is quite miraculous enough. The advantages of the explanation I offer is that it a) avoids assuming the existence of something whose existence ought not to be assumed; b) avoids the erroneous, dangerous, and irrelevant association of the hymen with physical virginity; and c) preserves the important part of the doctrine, i.e. that Mary knew no man sexually, and that hence Christ's father was Divine. Whether or not the men who wrote the doctrine intended this or another understanding of the word "intacta" is perhaps analogous to how "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus" can be "reformulated positively"(CCC 846), without changing the original wording. And as for the passage from Ezekiel, one doesn't need to interpret it physically; she can "shut" her womb to men by her own free choice. Samantha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15970" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-08T04:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-08T04:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both Augustine and Aquinas were well aware that the hymen could be broken in other ways. Aquinas explicitly says that when that happens it has no bearing on virginity. Only when broken through intercourse does it haev a connection, and an accidental one at that<br />And Vatican I's condemnation of the evolution of dogmas prevents us from giving a sense other than that which was meant at the time, to this or any other dogma (EENS is a can of worms there, a rabbit hole that should be avoided unless it can get central attention...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15971" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-08T04:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-08T04:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hate that this thread has some good discourse going on ... There is no way I can catch up even during night time feedings...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T04:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T04:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I realize that A & A made that distinction. But unless I missed something in the quotations provided, I didn't see any evidence that they were aware that a woman could be born without a hymen at ALL. It's this fact, rather than the non-sexual perforation of the hymen, which has a bearing on interpreting the word "intacta".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-08T04:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-08T04:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why? A man can be born with 6 fingers, or 4 toes....I see no bearing merely because some women lack a hymen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T04:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T04:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because if the BVM had no hymen, then giving birth "intacta" (in the sense of being "unbroken") makes much more sense than if she had a hymen, and somehow a baby had to get through it without breaking it. Given the doctrine as an article of faith, it makes more sense to interpret it in a way that makes sense with what we know about anatomy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15975" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T04:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T04:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, mine is a more palatable explanation of the doctrine in the context of evangelizing, when people are curious about what they must believe as a Catholic. I don't see that my explanation is heretical in any way, though it does demand less of the believer in terms of what is to be believed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T04:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T04:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Monica, I think your argument is very persuasive. However, it does seem that your position would challenge the Church's position on the "non-evolution" of dogma. <br />Also, I gave what might be described as a "mystical" argument for the fittingness of the Blessed Virgin Mary's possessing even the accidental physical signs. <br />Doesn't the position that I laid out make better sense of the dogma and the tradition? While at the same time, it does not violate anything proven by science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15977" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T04:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T04:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So granted that Ezekiel doesn't need to be interpreted that way, isn't there a greater fittingness if the physical signs were there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T04:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T04:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I do think that the way you're interpreting it is closer to what the Fathers/Doctors themselves would have believed. However, my point is that what they believed about female anatomy was flawed. Moreover, nobody's proffered textual evidence that it's an article of faith to believe THAT Mary had a hymen. Yes, we have the phrase "virgo intacta", but the word "intacta" doesn't mean "has a hymen". It can, as I have shown, be interpreted in a way that aligns with modern medical knowledge. Finally, I reject the phrase "physical signs", accidental or non accidental, since (as I have argued) there are no true physical signs of virginity--especially in the case of a woman who has no hymen to start with.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15979" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T04:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T04:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re. "non-evolution" - yes, I can understand your point about the danger, and I'm genuinely interested in figuring out whether my interpretation of the doctrine would be doctrinally acceptable. Aside from TNET, I've never seen/heard this issue discussed seriously, but I think it is an important topic especially given contemporary feminist criticisms of the historical fixation on the hymen as a proof of virginity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15980" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T05:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T05:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I'm curious about how pushing an 8 lb baby through a thin membrane without tearing it would be explicable without violating what we know from science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T05:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T05:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, the dogma mentions explicitly that Mary was virgin "during" the birth of Christ. Unless one would hold that they were attempting to exclude the possibility that someone was having sexual intercourse with the Virgin during birth, then it seems that we are forced to accept that it is Dogma that the Virgin has a hymen and that it is still intact. <br />I suppose, then, that though the Council Fathers may have erred in their understanding of female anatomy, the Holy Spirit allowed this formulation and it seems we are bound to find a ratio for it. <br />Also, I will not use the phrase physical signs any longer in order to not offend. However, I think one can legitimately talk about something being a "sign" even if that sign is not a necessary sign.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-08T06:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-08T06:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is St. John Paul II's catechesis on Mary's perpetual Virginity:<br />http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm31.htm<br />THE CHURCH PRESENTS MARY AS<br />Mary's perpetual virginity was the subject of the Holy Father's catechesis at the General Audience of...<br />EWTN.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15983" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T07:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T07:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I posted a quote from that earlier (TNET eternal return). It seems to be more ordered toward answering those certain protestants that believe that the BVM had other children. The "during" is never addressed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15984" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-08T07:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-08T07:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is really an issue of Mary being Theotokos and is more about special privileges being given to her than making implications about other women.<br />Going to work, but using the writings on the Sacred Heart (which have a lot to do with physicality) - what was not assumed would not be redeemed. Mary would not have been missing a body part or it would not have been redeemed.<br />The whole point is that the Blessed Virgin is the new Eve, Mother of all the living, and her Son the new Adam.<br />Something supernatural is beyond nature - therefore, science will be technically "incompatible" with miraculous occurrences - and the birth is referred to as miraculous and mysterious and without injury</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15985" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T07:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T07:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that's probably the best way to understand it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15986" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T07:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T07:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mark Shea rounds up some "in partu" texts on Patheos (more pertinent than the ewtn article, and more damning to my explanation): http://www.patheos.com/.../2010/12/i-stand-corrected.html<br />I stand corrected<br />Way back in August 2009 I wrote concerning the in partu inviolability of Our Lady (i.e, that her hymen was...<br />PATHEOS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15987" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-08T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-08T08:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going back to Michael Beitia's crypto-universalism. Let's discuss St Augustine's argument that the vast majority of people got to hell, and that this manifests God's justice better than if more people were saved. Recall:<br />«he who destroyed in himself a good which might have been eternal, became worthy of eternal evil. Hence the whole mass of the human race is condemned; for he who at first gave entrance to sin has been punished with all his posterity who were in him as in a root, so that no one is exempt from this just and due punishment, unless delivered by mercy and undeserved grace; and the human race is so apportioned that in some is displayed the efficacy of merciful grace, in the rest the efficacy of just retribution. For both could not be displayed in all; for if all had remained under the punishment of just condemnation, there would have been seen in no one the mercy of redeeming grace. And, on the other hand, if all had been transferred from darkness to light, the severity of retribution would have been manifested in none. But *many more are left under punishment than are delivered from it, in order that it may thus be shown what was due to all.* And had it been inflicted on all, no one could justly have found fault with the justice of Him who takes vengeance; whereas, in the deliverance of so many from that just award, there is cause to render the most cordial thanks to the gratuitous bounty of Him who delivers.» (Civ. Dei XXI,12)<br />Is he right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T08:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how did I get to be a crypto-universalist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T08:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and yes, Augustine is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15990" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Monica Murphy" data-date="2014-09-08T08:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Monica Murphy at 2014-09-08T08:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Daniel, maybe I simply disagree with the Fathers and we'll leave it at that. I'll have to go through that Patheos article and read/think about the excerpts carefully. P.S. Unless you're Peregrinesque, don't stop using a phrase you think has merit because you're worried about offending me or anyone else; I think we're all pretty good at disagreeing with each other without letting feelings get in the way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-08T08:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-08T08:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, I accussed you whilst you were off watching football.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15992" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T08:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T08:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, I saw the comment. I disagree with your analysis, but thought the comment more humor than argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T08:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T08:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and unlike a universalist, I have no problem saying that if that is the case that ensouled zygotes pass with the menstrual cycle, unbeknownst to the mother, have original sin, and consequently do go to hell</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T08:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T08:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">with Hitler and Judas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15995" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-08T08:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-08T08:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have lots to say about that, Pater Edmund, but it will have to wait til nap time. Labor me vocat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-08T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-08T09:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, it seems I have a minute. Obviously, Augustine has to be right that all humanity is justly condemned, and God would be just to leave any number, great or small, of us to damnation. The problem to me comes in with these arguments about why God allows most to be condemned. First of all, he is assuming something we don't know, namely that most are not saved. Secondly, God's justice is more than amply displayed in Jesus's sacrifice. Scripture is clear that God desires all men to be saved (1st Timothy 2:4). He did not send his son to die for us merely to display his justice and mercy, but because he loves us. Augustine's explanation seems to leave that out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T09:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T09:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd be leery of writing "Augustine's explanation seems to leave that out"<br />remember, this isn't St. Thomas, and there's probably four pages of lead up and four pages afterward that qualifies exactly what he means, and to what position he is responding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-08T09:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-08T09:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read a lot of Augustine and I don't think he ever accounts for 1st Timothy 2:4 in a satisfactory way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_15999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T09:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T09:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how do you account for history, given 1Tim2:4?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-08T09:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-08T09:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But my point is about the specific argument Pater Edmund posted</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-08T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-08T09:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't feel the need to offer an account for history</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-08T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-08T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course not, I'm simply suggesting that there's a time element here between Christ's sacrifice for all men, Paul writing that God wants all men to come to knowledge of that, and then the knowledge of Christ's sacrifice being carried to the four corners of the Earth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T12:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems I can see TNET while others cannot!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16004" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It appears to be available still here in Rome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16005" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16006" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because you were tagged in the status it's now just you and me in an empty Hall of statues</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16007" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe we should try re-tagging people, like Michael Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16008" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is like Narnia in here. I wonder what happens if we tag...The Neverending Thread!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16009" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">OH MAN THIS JUST GOT RECURSIVE AGAIN</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16010" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT IN A WHOLE NEW WAY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16011" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:11:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey Matthew J. Peterson I heard you like TNET so I put TNET in your TNET so you can TNET while you TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16012" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Poncho, looks like the Zuckerberg done took away all our Panama Red.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71n3PtdQWF4<br />Willie Nelson - The Party's Over<br />Track 7 of the 1967 LP 'The Party's Over'<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16013" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT BEFORE THE LAST LIGHTS ARE OUT, this being largely one of them TAC threads, it's only fitting to pour some whiskey on it and piss out all the fires.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hMdoGet2A8<br />The Parting Glass - Peter Hollens - Assassin's Creed 4<br />Album Pre-Order: http://www.pledgemusic.com/peterhol...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16014" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Be careful: they can all see your footprints or they will see them tonight when I reopen the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16015" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Until then: The canvas is yours</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If they are from TAC, presumably they will be glad that at least one of us did the honors. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16017" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I closed TNET as part of an experiment I will reopen it tonight</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16018" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You should wait three days. It would be more theological. MAGISTERIAL, even. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe I will select people like you every so often to write on the canvas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16020" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Except that if you were to wait three days, I fear that Edward Langley would dissolve from inactivity. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16021" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hilarious that you are still here. Fitting since you started it, in a way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16022" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, man, don't put this on me. I posted a link, you started a cult, the two are dissimilar. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only time your nerdfest line has been mentioned is when I mentioned once that no one had mentioned it. So strange.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16024" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah - it was the flame which, having lit the cigarette, was expended, and everyone on this thread has been chain-smoking the theology doobies ever since. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I reposted a link you posted.<br />A link I'm pretty sure I posted earlier along with everyone else months ago.<br />Who am I to argue with what sprang forth?!?<br />Like a bizarre growth from a potato.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(13, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sickening but you can't look away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The tension between naive TACers trying to reason with trollery proves fruitful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16028" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">More like an explosion in a fireworks factory - tragic, but beautiful, and every time it seems to end, another box explodes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-08T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-08T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And eternal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16030" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-08T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-08T14:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that box's name is Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16031" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T10:53:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">Behold. TNET returns.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16032" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T10:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is "The Entertainment" from Infinite Jest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16033" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks for screwing with all of us, Peterson.... now I forgot what essential point I was about to make</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16034" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-09T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-09T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So where were we...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16035" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-09T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-09T11:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am actually curious if TNET can pick itself up again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16036" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T11:05:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Matthew J. Peterson was just hiding this the whole time? And note how long I held out. My willpower must be improving.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16037" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-09T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-09T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not going to do it, but maybe some ambitious soul could tag everyone back into it. Or we could get lives, I guess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm at "work" not a life I really want to live</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16039" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-09T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-09T11:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm also wondering what exactly this "experiment" was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16040" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if I can nest the thread on my wall into a comment here....people were about to start arguing about marriage and the Odyssey...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16041" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T11:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am an hopeless addict. I thought I was done. But then pater made an interesting comment and that was it. I am afraid they will have to pry TNET from my cold dead hands. As for Peterson, I should start back scrolling and unliking every one of his comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16042" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, you need to like them all so that he gets moar notifications</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16043" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So here is something that my father wrote on the olive tree bed in the Odyssey that I posted on Michael Beitia's ersatz for The Neverending Thread:<br />«Part of the archetypal power of this scene is that the marriage bed itself serves as “the great sign (μέγα σῆμα)” of recognition between husband and wife after their separation, just as it had been the sign of their union twenty years earlier. The center post of the bed, a living Olive tree rooted in the earth, expresses the stability of the interior space created by love. Odysseus built the bed with his own hands in such a way that it cannot be moved. The wedding chamber in the Odyssey is part of a large house, the royal palace, in which there is room for many people. The great good of hospitality, a central good in Homer and the whole tradition of the West, belongs to the very nature of spousal love. By its innermost nature, the space which love creates for itself is not a space for the spouses alone. From the very center of this space, from the bed and the conjugal act, a larger space is built, in which there is room for children and other guests.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then Joel HF objected, saying «a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly, at least as far the "[marriage] bed and the conjugal act" are concerned. This act and this place are of their nature private, and not common, goods.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16045" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then I posted the continuation of the above quote: «This comprehensive power of the conjugal act seems to be the reason for a curious way of speaking characteristic of this vision of marriage: the natural end or good of sex is the procreation and education of children. Thomas writes, “The end which nature intends from within sex (ex concubitu) is the procreation and education of offspring.” How does sex educate children? Not as an educational display. That much is clear. The point is, rather, the power of sex in building an intimate space, the core of a larger home, in which children can be welcomed as guests, grow and be educated. <br />In the Odyssey, this intimate space is brought out negatively by the absence of Odysseus during Telemachus’ childhood and adolescence. It is brought out positively by Penelope’s faithfulness to it during the same twenty years, despite the pressure of her many suitors—a decisively important factor in Telemachus’ growth into a mature man. <br />It is in this manner that sex is unitively procreative. The union it produces is an open union that leads of itself to hospitality for children and other guests. One can see this essential role of procreation both from the side of the children and from the side of the parents. From the side of the children, the wider space of a home that is built up from the more intimate space created by the love of husband and wife is exactly the space children need. They need it to be conceived in a way fitting for persons.... they also need it to grow and receive their education in the right setting, in a house animated by a spirit of love. From the side of the parents, the gift of children completes and fulfills the interior space of union which their love creates. The pain of couples who are unable to have children is a testimony to the greatness and joy of this fulfillment, despite the labors and difficulties that come with it.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">are you taking "space" metaphorically in to sense of "grounding" or "clearing" in the Heideggerian manner?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16047" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, clearing is good. Lichtung.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16048" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T11:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aren't all private goods ordered to common goods in some way or another? And procreation is decidedly a private good. I also don't see, at least not clearly, why STA must be taken as saying that "sex educate[s] children" when he says that "[t]he end which nature intends from within sex (ex concubitu) is the procreation and education of offspring."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, all private goods are ordered to a common good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe you could say more about what he means by "space." I've not read Heidegger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16051" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Children are not a private good, though, FYI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neither have I.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In so far as the conjugal act is concerned, they are. My seed vs. yours. If you want, I can start pulling up biological papers on how male animals compete to impregnate the females. There is strong evidence that this is true even in humans.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In other words, children may be a common good, but this woman having my son *excludes* her having some other man's son.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16056" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-09T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-09T11:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's something Odysseus definitely understands...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but since the child is the production of two, it can't be private, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^How do you mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the suitors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still not following. What is the "it" here: "since the child is the production of two, it can't be private"? (Sorry I'm being so dense!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16061" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Paul Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Paul Peterson at 2014-09-09T11:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You fail to note that Thomas Aquinas College requires more years in the study of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas than most colleges require minutes. I would be particularly interested in reading Caitlin Griffith's thesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The it refers to the exclusion of the suitors, or like you said, *my* child not *yours* which Odysseus understands given his treatment of the suitors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16063" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Children are especially private. All other external goods may be taken away. But paternity / maternity, never.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16064" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tell that to the Social Security Administration......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T11:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . a defect in our laws that sees nothing as private or off limits to the state. I think the Roman law is better if not entirely right. The state long ago crossed and transgressed the threshold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16066" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T11:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, you think marriage should be cum manu or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">trouble maker. Anyways marriage law and marriages are pretty screwed up, not to mention family law. Discussion is impossible because of confusion. Livy reported that there was no record of divorce for the first 300 years (though the records had been destroyed at the sacking of the Gauls.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16068" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET!!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hurray!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">After our duty to God comes that to our parents. The filial bonds have been severed. If the Romans erred, it was less than ours which has unbound all ties while leaving the individual entirely at the mercy / disposal of the state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16071" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T12:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I forgot to say this earlier but: LEEEEEEERRRRRRROOOYYY *JENKINS*!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16072" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T12:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16073" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T12:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always cite this:<br />"Man becomes a debtor to other men in various ways, according to their various excellence and the various benefits received from them . . . the principles of our being and government are our parents and our country, that have given us birth and nourishment. Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his country, after God. Wherefore just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to piety, in the second place, to give worship to one's parents and one's country."<br />St. Tommy Aquinas</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16074" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, roman law sucks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16075" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-09T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-09T12:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh my goodness it's back! It's alive!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-09T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-09T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am curious as to the conclusions of your experiment, Matthew J. Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, just catching up...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">this was all just a cruel experiment??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16079" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are we to you, Matthew J. Peterson??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16080" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:54:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's like you shot us all up with heroine and then took it away!! Did you not think of the consequences??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16081" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T12:54:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your individual needs are inferior and subservient to the DEMANDS of political SCIENCE!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16082" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Michael Beitia, time for you to make good on your trash talk. Wasn't I supposed to be writhing in the crushing grip of your syllogistic megatisms?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16083" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T12:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeez. That SCIENCE bit is terrifying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16084" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-09T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-09T12:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And whoa - the words "go to hell" were actually used. I thought people were exaggerating about that, but no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(82, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">shocking, right? all of it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16086" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-09T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-09T12:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WE'RE BACK!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16087" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T12:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Getting the band back together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16088" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T12:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/dzOHq5WbQ8k<br />We're Gettin the Band Back Together<br />Jake and Elwood Blues get the band back together in "the Blues Brothers"<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16089" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T12:58:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do enjoy that you and Tom were kicking around there in the infinite empty space of TNET while the rest of us were panicking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16090" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahaha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, you're on repeat...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16092" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T13:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">this dumb coffee shop's dumb internet is making me sound dumb</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16093" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*making* and *sound*<br />So does your husband have rights over you or your father.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16094" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T13:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pavlovian experiment for Peterson's class: "troll response conditioning of Thomists."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16095" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T13:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So really, wasn't Hegel right about the procession of world spirit in the realization of freedom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Peterson, you haven't talked about the Federalist Papers *at all*....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16097" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-09T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-09T13:06:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, during that brief hiatus, my marriage improved, I reconnected with my children, and rediscovered my purpose in life. <br />Man, am I glad TNET is back!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Legal rights, no. Moral rights, sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My internet is too lousy, guess I have to actually work. Later y'all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16100" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So is it agreed that children are private belonging to parents (and God) but for the common good (among which God is first)? And that the end of the marital union (in itself private) has the education (broadly speaking) of children as its highest end though the sanctification of spouses is not to be trivialized as an end of marriage? At least we are not "autonomous" cogs of the state (or Peterson's experiment).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">legally or morally?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that sounds right. How about elaborating on the supposed advantages of Roman law?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16103" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T14:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">legally, we may be owned by TNET, a subsidiary of Peterson's Labs. But I don't know if that extends to progeny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Roman advantage: we belong to dad, not the state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T14:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if we had Roman custom, how could I tell my wife apart from my daughter? They'd have the same name....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16106" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T14:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no. Only daughters have the same name. That was what the Romans used math for (eg. Iulia Prima . . Iulia secunda . .etc. That was kind of weird but the boys weren't much different: viz. Decimus, Quintus and Sextus.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how many Julias were there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16108" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.luc.edu/roman-emperors/jclaud1.gif<br />LUC.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16109" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T14:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or you could have a Julia and a Julilla</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16110" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T14:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Life of Julia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16111" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T14:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Roman disadvantage, we belong like property to dad. modern advantage, we're not property.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everybody go look at today's google doodle!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is so great!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To whom do children belong by law, today, as the laws are written?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16115" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-09T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-09T15:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, when did TNET return? Or did it really disappear?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16116" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-09T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-09T15:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what, it's back?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha modern Roman law doesnt work that way; vide Spanish, French, Scots, and "Romano-Dutch" codes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-09T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-09T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a miracle!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Megan Baird" data-date="2014-09-09T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Megan Baird at 2014-09-09T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Ok, slight exaggeration but still...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, what do you mean, modern Roman law?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, the Roman-civil system which obtains in most of the world now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is that what John is talking about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just saying that Roman law is a living thing; it wasn't clear to me how narrowly John meant it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just assumed ancient Roman law. apologies to John if I misinterpreted him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was contrasting the extreme of ancient Roman law with the modern extreme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16126" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh i see- sorry Samantha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16127" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine children belong to themselves, in the custody of their parents, with some oversight from the state</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16128" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, you're all wrong - true Roman law defers to the principle that everyone belongs to Dean Martin.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYd_8I44YL8<br />Dean martin- You Belong To me<br />This song makes me cry. Visit my channel! & Suscribe!<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That "some" is the undefined. Moreover you agreed above that children belonged to their parents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why I put 'em to work. DO THE DISHES!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16131" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">children in Christian law (civil and common-law) do not belong to their parents; they are dominus sui, but this status is held as it were in trust by the parents until the children are of age, very much like property held in trust</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16132" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"belong" is said in many ways</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16133" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But when the parents die or disown the children, the children, having no legal identity, lose their names - as a result, they are "facies sine nomini", for which reason they are sent back to Houston.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rt1VicF5-0<br />Dean Martin - Houston<br />Dean Martin on TV, singing and covering his mouth with a harmonica through "Houston".<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, what JA said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do people call you JA? What is your actual name?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16136" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, but all your base are belong to us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^re-phrase?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The honor owed to the state would be much clearer if America's laws were like, e.g., German law where, when one gets married, one must go to the Standesamt, the office in each city which certifies marriage. Then, if one wants a church wedding, one can have that too. But the state controls marriages.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16139" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha I prefer "His Highness"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16140" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">more like his mustacheness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's JAson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I like you, JA, but I'm not calling you that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16143" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">with the extra capital</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16144" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Hercule Poirot"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Masked Man of Mystery" JA Escalante?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have to shout the first syllable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16147" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It might or might not be Jason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's pronounced "JAH! Sawn!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16149" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">no. . . JA!son</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">with a click somewhere in the middle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how else are we to do homage to almighty Jah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The first syllable is "jai" like in "jai guru deva"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but there are two other Christian names, one of whose initials is A, and the other of which I left out here. Hence, JA because FB wont let me use periods</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16154" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^now we're talking!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does a masked man of mystery do for a day job? (You know, purely to keep people from guessing his secret identity).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16156" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF: Professional kitten murder. I've seen him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA what \ when is the origin of the use of "dominus sui"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16158" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel I read hearts. Especially Tom's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Calvinist websites to prevent people like me from slipping back into the arms of Romanism, is what I've been told</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16160" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">and intercede with much groaning, esp for the Toms of the world</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mine reads like the script of A Clockwork Orange!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16162" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom's heart is an open book. Everyone has read it. Boooring!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's actually from his intestinal gas problems from being such a windbag.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16164" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John it goes back to medieval law; it's Thomas' definition of "person"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">really? going to be serious?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JAson has a website?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16167" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm keeping the light on for you, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16168" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/PN9n1bAahg4<br />The Beatles - Across The Universe<br />Lyrics: Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup They slither while they pass They slip away across...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16169" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they need to use the term "popery" more often</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16170" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">especially in conjunction with "romish"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16171" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I use those all the time. I just haven't here because I'm so careful not to offend you all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16172" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:26:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't take a medieval law discussion seriously without being accused of Romish popery</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16173" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF-- my brother goes around telling everyone I'm just stalling on coming back into the fold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so do we know what happened to TNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16175" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Popery - it makes a pleasing odor to the Lord</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-09T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-09T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">was it "reported"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16177" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's not forget "ultramontanism" ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16178" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson shut it down to jerk everyone's chain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16179" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson was screwing with us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys were jonesing for your fix hahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16181" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">didn't you see my wall? It's like the TNET methadone program</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn straight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16183" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's the "Vicar of Wakefield" that opens w/ a scene of the young boy running to his mother, all out of breath, and crying how they found a peddlar who was a real papist! And so naturally all the young lads of the neighborhood began chasing him and throwing stones at him, as you do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16184" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And like methadone, just couldn't replace the real thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was like a junkie without a spoon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16186" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-09T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-09T15:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you mean "method one"? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope methadone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Arrested Development reference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aaah... me no ever seen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16190" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A nu start</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16191" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My new career will be a cross between a therapist and an analyst. I'm going to call myself an "analrapist."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A classic from the mid-90's:<br />http://youtu.be/OUJI9Uwb3fo<br />Sonia Dada- Lesters Methadone Clinic<br />Sonia Dada- Lesters Methadone Clinic original song from the album 'a day at the beach'<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truest, most profound quote from AD-- "I'd rather be dead in California than alive in Arizona."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16194" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This works for a lot of other states as well, for instance "I'd rather be dead in California than alive in Texas"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16195" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A civil war general (unless I'm totally wrong) once said "If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in Hell."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That would be Gen. Philip Sheridan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wise man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No Texans here? I thought that would be more inflammatory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is Sam Rocha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16200" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Texas sucks I suffered through one year in Irving.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have some fine Texan friends. Some much obliging and friendly folks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb almost got a job in Houston when he first went on the market. Shiver. Dodged that bullet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dallas is trble</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Houston is maybe worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Texas has Rich Linklatter though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16206" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And he is brilliant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Houston is great ... the only city in Texas with culture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">San Antonio is real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Menil Collection, Rothko Chapel, opera, ballet, symphony, wine bars and breakfast tacos. What more could you ask for?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16210" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Pacific ocean, mountains, less than a bazillion percent humidity, seasons</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ all things I could ask for</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16212" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">walkability</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">urban density</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16214" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A few weeks ago I told Catherine that we should see Boyhood. There's a 10 am matinee on Saturday, I said. No one will be there, I said. Aurelia sleeps like a rock in the morning, I said. We'll sit in the back, no one will even notice we are there, I said. <br />We left the crowded theater like we had robbed a bank. Out the sidedoor through the alley into the car in seconds flat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson and another lifted me up to change the letters on the sign at the historic stock yards in Forth Worth one very inebriated night.....<br />I wonder if he remembers that surreal evening</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I couldn't reach the top row of letters so that stayed "tonight only:"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16218" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the corral of women?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16219" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That cowboy mafia bar we had to leave</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">never felt more "Yankee" in my life</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some sex trafficking we stumbled into, apparently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cheap vodka though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16223" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T15:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me this morning:<br />"Villains!" I shrieked, "dissemble no more! I admit the deed! --tear up the planks! --here, here! --it is the beating of TNET's hideous heart!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16224" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T15:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia & Matthew J. Peterson--this sounds like the beginning of a Coen Brother's movie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-09T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-09T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been to Austin. Good music and food. (I happened to be there during a punk festival... Never so many unique snowflakes wearing the same uniform. Some of the older Brit bands were there;can you still be punk in your 70's?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen = Austin? Freudian slip?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16227" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe Samantha, you would like it in Austin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16228" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T16:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, every time I hear "Fly trapped in a jar" it reminds me of Fort Worth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16229" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T16:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe Austen. Probably not Austin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austin is one of the hottest and most happening cities in the USofA right now. But maybe that's your problem with it too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16231" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T16:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm puzzled by where, in fact, Samantha *does* want to live. Let's see: the pacific ocean, mountains, not too much humidity, seasons? Walkability, urban density? California is right out then. I guess you want to live in Portland, then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hipster.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T16:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austin is so over, Matthew. Detroit is where it's at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those were disjunctive</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But yes, I'm torn</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pretty much every beach town in CA is walkable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^False</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, seasons?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16239" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless you mean "the beach portions only" or something</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, there are seasons here. That's a fact of naychure. Usually what people want is northeastern fall, however. So drive up to NorCal and get a taste.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You *want* urban density?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16242" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If we pretend that California has real seasons, then the Bay Area might answer. Though there aren't *really* mountains. But I maintain that Portland fits all the the categories mentioned. Everything south fails one way or the other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16243" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Try Claremont sometime. Walkable. Craftsman homes. Mountains. And ocean and all that Los Angeles has to offer close by.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb Cohoe would love to teach at any of the Claremont Colleges.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16245" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha. It has evolved into a discussion of the weather. You guys are really grasping here </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16246" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And they need him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16247" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, does it have to be in the US? Maybe Vancouver? Holy cow, I think Caleb Cohoe has gotten to Samantha! Resist Canada Samantha! Resist it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't the "Straus House" in Claremont? Peterson, I think you have a very loose definition of walkable. I will admit a partiality to the inland empire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you are in NorCal you just drive to the foothills of the Sierras, one of the most beautiful ranges in the world, and you pick apples and get your fall out there in gold country.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16250" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Based on the list Samantha Cohoe provided, I think Vancouver wins in a landslide. Caleb's plan of luring her to Canada is about to come to fruition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16251" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Claremont by the colleges is all Craftsman homes and walkable/cute downtown village area. Even outside of that it's great for biking and walking. Wilderness trail a mile or so from Strauss house - saw a bear there once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16252" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-09T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-09T17:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">California is overrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is my beef with the CA season thing. Yes, California has seasons. Southern California has seasons too, which are very subtle and not, I repeat, not the classic four seasons. Not even a mild version. They are something different, but things do change and the changes are pretty nice for the most part. I just wish people ( including Californians!) would stop forcing the four season thing on SoCal. It doesn't work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Walkability has to exist in the context of a good network of public transport (buses / streetcars / subways). New York City is walkable with the aid of buses and subways -- you can get anywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T17:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And admittedly, now that I read back a few comments ( not 1000's, just a couple , that you guys were discussing a rather elevated topic of cities and places to live. And I dragged in the season thing. Haha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Walkability = Able to live without a car</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16257" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson--you sound like Ron and Sheila Albertson at the end of Waiting for Guffman: "Well, here we are in the land of dreams,<br />and don't let anybody tell you dreams can't come true. We're an hour from the snow, we're 20 minutes from the ocean, And we're gonna get there one of these days. Soon as we get a car. We don't have a car yet. Who wants to add to the pollution? We consider ourselves bl-coastal if you consider [Lake Erie] one of the coasts'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16258" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson is right, NorCal is my ideal, but we'd move to Claremont in half a freaking second if Caleb got a job there. But then, who am I kidding, we'd move to Austin in half a second if Caleb got a job at UT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16259" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T17:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Can you smell the salt in the air?" Best line of the movie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yes, I like urban density if I'm in a city. But like I said, my list is disjunctive. The point is, Houston had *none* of those things</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16261" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do air pollution and extreme heat count for nothing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, as much as I hate to admit it, Vancouver certainly has a few things going for it...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(66, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sadly, aside from ruling out a few egregiously horrible places, I get very little say in where we end up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16264" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Gabe Haggard" data-date="2014-09-09T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Gabe Haggard at 2014-09-09T17:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this a good place to bring up Apple products?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16265" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T17:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Houston does have NONE of those things, but my earlier claim about the cultural glories of Houston was based on an IF/THEN: IF one must live in Texas, then Houston is the best. Just wait until Caleb gets a job offer at Rice!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16266" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Gabe Haggard" data-date="2014-09-09T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Gabe Haggard at 2014-09-09T17:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really want an Apple Watch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16267" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahaha...great line.<br />But you don't have to believe it. <br />The village in Claremont is small about as walkable as it gets, I can and do drive up to the mountains in 10 minutes.<br />And I walk to my work. <br />We also walk to Trader Joe's, mass, good restaurants, grocery stores and pretty much anything else you could imagine.<br />But we have a wonderful deal re the beautiful house we rent, and I do drive a long commute for my other job - because I don't have a tenure track one here - so in a sense this is all fiction.<br />But with the right position here, yes, you can have it all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sooo..... is Claremont hiring an ancient philosopher this year?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16269" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basically all you need is...a s$&t-ton of money.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The right position"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cash rules everything around us ... dolla dolla bill y'all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this a good time to go back to the subject of how TAC should be more ordered to worldly success?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16273" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said, whenever Matthew J. Peterson starts talking about California, he sounds like the Albertsons from Waiting for Guffman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Similarly, you can walk to a lot in Santa Monica. All you need is for daddy to have been an ambassador and you to be his errant communist leaning daughter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I kid because I love, yet, nevetheless, it is funny because it is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can walk to a lot in Manhattan Beach. When you aren't driving that humble Tesla.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16277" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or else you just need your Californian parents to NOT HAVE SOLD THEIR HOUSE ON THE CENTRAL COAST TO MOVE TO FRICKING OHIO.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16278" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the right season, Claremont is like walking around an arboretum/botanical garden too. Love it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16279" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem with TAC being ordered to worldly success is that, if you drink the kool aid there, you've already failed by worldly standards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16280" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">How mad do you think the fine folks at Kool Aid are that it wasn't even Kool Aid that was served at Jonestown?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16281" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dayton. Ohio. I kid you not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16282" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some executive is pulling out his hair and screaming "Damn it all! It was *Flavor Aid*!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are not enough Waiting for Guffman clips on youtube. eom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-09T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-09T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FYI: Money magazine has an article on Liberal Arts colleges this month.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16285" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Santa Barbara is also very walkable, if your man servants walk for you while you lay atop your solid gold litter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16286" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've found New York to be perfectly walkable as well. Why, my butlers would take Fido out for a walk in Central Park every day, and they never had any problems with any of that horrid riff-raff!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16287" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:30:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um. Actually, I do still have that beach house in Santa Barbara... for now. BTW, can everybody here pray that my lousy relatives don't decide to sell it? We can have a TNET party there if your prayers are heard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There actually IS a botanical garden I can almost see from our place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-09T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-09T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I were rich, one of my many houses would definitely be in the bay area though. Maybe another in Santa Barbara as well. Or maybe Big Sur. Decisions, Decisions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16290" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I were rich, I would buy out the other 96% of Grama's house from my lousy relatives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16291" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have the same wish re part of a beautiful family property in CA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it's in NorCal, just to show how cosmopolitan I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16293" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T17:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vancouver would be incredible if it weren't for the whole Canadian thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16294" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T17:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly. I'm so close to getting Caleb to agree to US citizenship, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16295" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-09T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-09T17:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's back!!!! I'm late to the game, huh? Have we cast lots to elect a new troll yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T18:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one can replace Scott. He is troll par excellence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16297" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-09T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-09T18:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trollissimus!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16298" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, silly, un cultured ignorant American snob </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16299" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-09T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-09T18:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ohhhhhhhhh, Canada, you just kill me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16300" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T18:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was giving you how incredible Vancouver is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-09T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-09T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is The Two Faced Peregrine anyhow? What happened? Did I miss something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An improvement for sure. You've come a long way. Andrew Whaley, however....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew , shhhhhhhhhhh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't wake him from his slumber! Then again, if you are aiming for 100k comments, then maybe it's a good move. I missed about 15,500 comments, so I have no idea what went down since the beginning of The Never Ending Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16305" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-09T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-09T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">grab some popcorn and start reading Anne Marie. I think you could skip the first 1200 comments...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-09T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-09T18:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does it say about The Threadness that Matthew J. Peterson can turn it on and off at will? And more scarily, what does it imply about him? WHAT IS HE?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am pretty sure I actually missed about 16.4 comments, but had forgotten how many there were when I posted my last comment. What are the juiciest parts? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I just asked that as if someone could just summarize this thread in a few sentences. Haha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-09T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-09T18:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">we try to do that every 1000 posts or so but it is impossible to capture the nuances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Goddard" data-date="2014-09-09T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Goddard at 2014-09-09T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lots of girls in that photo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-09T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-09T18:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually - I'd like to see someone try to encapsulate it. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16312" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T19:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">venimus, vidimus, vicimus in less than 17,000 comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-09T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-09T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I agree. Sssshhhhhhhh. It's like Candyman. If his name is spoken too many times on the thread...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16314" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody , I agree. We could make it a competition and award this trophy for the prize!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is too long..... TNET is too short... TNET is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-09T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-09T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A little fun with google. I just could not resist finding an image of a troll trophy. Mea culpa, Peregrine. I mean no harm http://concordiamn.prestosports.com/.../20130919tnj1c2<br />The Ugliest Rivalry Trophy In The Nation<br />Concordia will renew its rivalry with St. Olaf on Saturday with the winner getting to take home the ugliest rivalry...<br />CONCORDIAMN.PRESTOSPORTS.COM|BY PRESTOSPORTS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-09T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-09T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone know of any studies done on the use of iPads in the classroom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16318" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T19:10:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I missed the first several thousand comments, but my favorites topics include: which truths of natural theology can be known by reason, the evils of a-historical Aristothomas, who is the biggest jerk on the thread (this competition is ongoing), NFP, whether the Church Fathers maybe had some not awesome ideas about sex and women, whether sexual desire can ever be acted upon without admixture of concupiscence, whether Augustine maybe had some not awesome ideas about sex and women, whether Aquinas messed up about the Immaculate Conception because of his over-reliance on reason, when ensoulment happens, twinning, Mrs. Gustin, which composer is the best, whether TAC could do a better job helping its graduates find jobs and get into grad school, whether the prestige of one's college education is helpful to one's career (believe it or not, people actually argued no on that one), why Jane Austen is indisputably great, whether Mary remained "physically intact" through childbirth--the last one is what made Scott really and truly lose it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16319" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's just a sampling, really, Anne Marie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16320" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-09T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-09T19:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">At the risk of bringing this thread down, my old business partner's wife is on full life support, following multiple cardiac arrests and the installation of an artificial heart. Her lungs are now failing and the family is begging prayers. They have a baby son. Take a moment if you have it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16321" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-09T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-09T19:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Why Jane Austen is indisbutably great..." hahaha that gave me a chuckle </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-09T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-09T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will do, Mr. Whaley.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-09T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-09T19:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha - *indisputably. Been taking spelling lessons from Jane again?<br />...I tease, I tease! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16324" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Matthew Dugandzic" data-date="2014-09-09T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Dugandzic at 2014-09-09T19:06:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wondered why this kept coming up on my newsfeed, and then I saw that this thread had over 16.5k comments.<br />Peterson, I'm sure that this is the most press TAC has ever gotten. You should bill them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16325" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T19:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and there was that whole Straussian interlude, intermixed with a lot of talking about Virgil</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16326" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-09T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-09T19:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">evolution! modesty!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16327" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-09T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-09T19:20:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't forget the part where TAC was founded by heretics and is a heretic factory. That is kind of what got the engine going. Then there was the whole thing about who Peregrine really is and what is in his political past. So many topics, so little time!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-09T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-09T19:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrew, I will be praying. How awful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW Matthew, Peregrine defriended me a day or two ago . . . you also I noticed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16330" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nick Zepeda" data-date="2014-09-09T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nick Zepeda at 2014-09-09T20:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John and Matthew: It's because you're arrogant. Accept it or it will destroy you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16331" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-09T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-09T20:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Humility of Heart". It has made me well aware. But a tough book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16332" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T21:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">how can you summarize the ineffable?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16333" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-09T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-09T22:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we just reminiscing about the golden age of tnet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-09T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-09T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">apparently...<br />Scott!? Where are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16335" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-09T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-09T22:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The gimp is sleeping. In this case, don't wake him up (sorry: I just saw the 20th-anniversary edition of Pulp Fiction on the big screen tonight).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-10T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-10T00:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off topic again: In Scotus and others, what do the abbreviations stand for? E.g. lib. 4 dist. 1. qu. 7 n.2 . I know lib. and qu. Is dist. 'distinction'? What is n.?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16337" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T00:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dist is distinction, follow Peter Lombard's Sentences, which Scotus, and more expertly Aquinas, commented on, qc stands for "little question" (quaestiuncula).<br />n. is numerus, whether the number of a page or line</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16338" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-10T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-10T00:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this back??!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16339" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T00:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For a complete list afaik<br />a. articulum<br />ad - response to an objection or sed contra<br />arg. argumentum (an objection)<br />cap- caput (chapter)<br />c. - caput/chapter (but only when after the number of a book)<br />col- columna (column)<br />c./co.- corpus, body of text<br />f. folium<br />ff. folia<br />lect. - lectio<br />lib. - liber<br />lin. - linea<br />n. numerus<br />p. - before a number, pagina<br />praef. preface<br />s.c.- sed contra<br />t. tomus<br />v.- versus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16340" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T00:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng, it never left...we left it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I probably missed something obvious there.... JA Escalante, any more useful abbreviations for citing scholastic texts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16342" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T00:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah, tl;dr</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16343" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-10T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-10T00:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quaestiuncula could be a cute nickname for TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16344" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T01:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Very funny!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16345" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T01:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET bears more resemblance to Aristotle's Problems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16346" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="James Layne" data-date="2014-09-10T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Layne at 2014-09-10T01:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've really been away from TAC too long. I came back to browse this EPIC thread a little and then skipped to the end, and it took me awhile to realize that Catherine Ryland indeed was not requesting information for how to cite opinions from the Supreme Court of the United States. Oh yeah, the OTHER SCOTUS. <br />Someone print this all out and make a book of it. It's amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16347" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-10T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-10T01:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hi people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T01:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here I was trying to be helpful <br />In all seriousness though, anyone think Scott will be back?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16349" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T01:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">People: Hi John Boyer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-10T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-10T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel P. OConnell, you mean it's spurious?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16351" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="James Layne" data-date="2014-09-10T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Layne at 2014-09-10T01:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope he was banned. What a troll. I saw some of his rambling above. He's either unhinged or completely insincere. That he sincerely believes what he writes is inconceivable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T01:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer: Ha, no. Just in terms of the structure. A series of problems posed and answered ... as long as one cuts out the goatfeathers ... although those are sometimes the most enjoyable part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16353" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="James Layne" data-date="2014-09-10T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Layne at 2014-09-10T01:51:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like with the length of this thread someone should insert a rambling diatribe about their philosophy of history. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16354" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Anne Breiling" data-date="2014-09-10T03:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Breiling at 2014-09-10T03:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and maybe some Townes Van Zandt... #whynot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGOxo0KDMs&index=7...<br />I'll Be Here In The Morning (Townes Van Zandt)<br />The sun is rising, and despite the clouds and blowing...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-10T07:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(234, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-10T07:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you for your help, Joshua! That is splendid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T08:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T08:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, is this the wake for TNET? If it is, I want to know final stats.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16357" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T09:27:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">where's Scott when you need some poetry?<br />"that's the way the TNET ends<br />that's the way the TNET ends<br />That's the way the TNET ends<br />not with a bang but a whimper."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16358" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-10T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-10T09:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just the dark ages of TNET. Everyone is busy doing penance, or "working".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T09:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T09:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">work sucks more TNET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16360" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T11:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reports of TNET’s demise are greatly exaggerated. Especially since these are just a few of the topics we haven’t discussed yet:<br />America: Just how blindingly obvious is it that America was founded on evil enlightenment principles? or We totally used to sing songs that sound like they could be understood to refer to the common good in some way!<br />Vaccination: Does vaccination hurt kids?<br />Agrarianism: Only for well-heeled white folks with rich fantasy lives? or Why the lower classes just need to accept their hunger pangs, periodic food shortages are totally ordered to the common good!<br />Capitalism: Evil and contrary to CST? or Those kids in China WANT to work 16 hours shifts totally by their own free choice in those lovely factories and no Pope has ever written against it ever! (Except for Francis, Benedict XVI, JPII, Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XI, etc.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T09:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about this Mike (can I call you Mike?)-- Paul says god "overlooked the times of ignorance." Maybe that's how I account for history while denying that the majority of people necessarily go to hell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T09:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Predestination is always good as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Predestination is good. Let's all cherry pick our favorite Bible quotes:<br />Jer. 25:27</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rm 8:30.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh so it's fine to quote popes, but as soon as I cite the Bible it's "cherry picking"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Papists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16367" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T09:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Papists (other than those that agree with me) love to cherry pick quotes from popes. But we can save that for the Capitalism discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T09:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Communism, man is slave to the state. In Capitalism, man is slave to the corporation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T09:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^not a pope quote^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16370" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T09:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T09:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sed contra "Russia, China, Cuba, etc. etc. weren't *really* Communist states, so Marx's theories are still valid." And also, "Yes, that's true of *Crony* Capitalism, but true Capitalism hasn't been tried yet. Once the state gets out of the way, you'll see. Utopia for everyone."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T09:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's not talk theory here, (conra TAC) but let's talk real existing socialism, or real existing capitalism. <br />Fact: the skeleton in the closet of capitalist economies is that if you go far enough down it rests on real or virtual slave labor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T09:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^yup.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16373" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T09:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But is there anyone on here who will defend capitalism as existing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Predestination: Is the Calvinist (and Lutheran?) view really different from STA, and if so how and how much? (I have no clue myself. One of you schmahrties can let me know.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. This is exactly how capitalism and communism work. There are flaws in the theoretical. What we have seen is what you get.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Killed it. Economics - solved</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16377" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as real, existing stuff goes, I'd prefer to be in America over the last century than in Russia - and so would everyone else here, despite the pretensions of parity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16378" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the same goes for China.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T10:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">only prefer to be here cause little slave kids made your IPhone for you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16380" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson This is true, and one could substitute China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, of course, I'm supposed to qualify that by saying that's just accidental and America actually sucks just as bad in theory. <br />Because: intellectualism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16382" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, in my proposed questions above, did you note how irenically I phrased the two options on America's founding?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And we are never supposed to use the "if you don't like it, leave it for some place better" argument because being grateful for what we have is somehow immoral in this day and age and that argument is silly because...we likes to be close to the precious even as we hateses it, I suppose.<br />Eh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16384" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I loved your magnanimous flourish there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, we are never supposed to listen to people from other countries who like it here or any immigrant story of success because that's all just propaganda.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16386" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In an ideal world, those people wouldn't have to come here, and therefore we suck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nothing wrong with being grateful, *however*, it is important to understand how un-utopian it really is. <br />How much U-S-A U-S-A!!!!!! chest thumping do we really need?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In an ideal world, we could choose other options other than the one's that have actually existed over the last century even as America corrupts itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see a lot of USA thumping anywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mouse over your facebook picture and I see 130 mutual friends.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16391" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see a lot of watered down Zinn and a (justifiably and understandably) dispirited people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16392" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T10:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Zinn is terrible. I prefer Chomsky</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16393" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(68, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I said something patriotic I would have droves of ironic naysayers and critiques underneath the status chiding me for saying something so base and stupid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16394" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gotta go talk about The Federalist THE WHOLE TIME.<br />Peace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Immigrant success story?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-10T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-10T10:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In order to critique and reform well, it's important to wrestle with what is good and bad now - too easy to go to extremes either way, of course.<br />But the rah rah extreme is rare in education, and the poo poo extreme is usually done very poorly and just as if not more dishonestly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T10:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see a lot of chest thumping. That or hatred for the wrong things. Very little real self examination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T10:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">chest thumping outside academia of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16399" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T10:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chomsky is a nut, from the little I've read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16400" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T10:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here’s what bugs me: Yes America is better than many places in the world (and not just because we get to be the rich consumers and they get to be chained to a factory bench to provide us our goodies). Yet even so the answer simply cannot be to always demand fewer regulations and lower taxes as if that were the answer to everything. It seems that this ignores the plight of the poor, not just at home, but those abroad who are made miserable here and now for our comfort. Doesn’t social justice demand more from us?<br />Yet even if it were the case that capitalism makes everyone richer world-wide, and even if we assume the all but slave labor conditions in 3rd world countries would be *even worse* if it weren’t for the multi-national conglomerates (unproven assumptions as far as I can tell), I’d still have serious, grave reservations about the capitalist system, and I’m always surprised when I find people who claim to share my values who do NOT seem to have these reservations. <br />Don’t we all recognize that our society has become deadened to the higher things? That material excess and pleasures are, far too often, the only goods recognized? This is the result of capitalism as it has been practiced. I don’t have any neat solutions, of course, but surely there ought to be an acknowledgment that endless consumption cannot be the only principle of our economic policies?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"deadened to the higher things". If the aim of the society not be higher, then there is no principle to check that of "more commodious living" as the guide to economic policy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16402" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it is a facile delusion to think we can correct the inequities. Our legislators do not write or read the laws and haven't for a while. Have you read that stuff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Profit over People is golden</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(62, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys are just mad because you're poor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16405" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T11:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I've said before, Social justice is when I am safely within the top 1%. Until then, no justice, no peace!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16406" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's Pater Edmund? He should be into this "deadened to higher things" stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16407" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T11:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I don't care about being poor. Poverty is underrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poor? who said anything about being poor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16409" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-10T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-10T11:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Joel HF.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, you did, like 1000 times. 1000 or the 16000 comments on this thread are you complaining about being poor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">First it was TAC's fault, now it's capitalism's fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's possible I'm reading between the lines here a little</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16413" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T11:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's just jealous of your boots, Samantha. Ignore him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHA I love consumerism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hang on, so if there is systemic oppression for the sake of cheap goods here (which means I can afford a television, cheap clothing etc) I'm complaining about it because I'm poor? There seems to be some sort of disconnect here.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and at least I buy American made boots......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16417" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was not actually attempting to make a serious comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Frye's are made in the USA! http://www.thefryecompany.com/made-in-usa</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">should be for $347</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16420" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">there can be no levity on TNET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16421" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T11:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chomsky is the BEST. GENIUS. HONEST. Haven't read him in a long while and his politics are whacked. I thinj that happens to everyone disillusioned with but stuck in the libertarian / communism spectrum. And he toasted the conservative "voice of reason" in a debate once to the point of getting threatened. I don't get the Chomsky hate. I am not a Chomskyite but he isn't a typical flatulant talking head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16422" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things are expensive when they aren't made by little slave kids.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">whether or not one agrees with him, Chomsky is always worth the read</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for the record, TNET has now officially sanctioned my purchase of expensive boots.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in case anyone missed that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">boots >> feeding the poor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16427" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T11:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe "Things are expensive when they aren't made by little slave kids." Sometimes things are still expensive. I quote the poet, Jemaine:<br />"They’re turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers <br />But what’s the real cost, ‘cause the sneakers don’t seem that much cheaper.<br />Why are we still paying so much for sneakers when you got little kid slaves making them <br />What are your overheads. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16428" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T11:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmLHOGT0v4c<br />Flight of the Conchords- Issues (Think About It)<br />Flight of the Conchords performing their song "Issues." If...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16429" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I strongly urge everyone to take a moment to watch this highly relevant clip.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16430" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey I posted that back in the Jurassic period of TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16431" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T11:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On TNET there is no before and after, no first and no last.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16432" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now, in the Baroque period....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16433" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T11:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kerouac? Anyone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16434" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T11:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"We're talkin bout the issues, but we're keepin it funky" unofficial motto of TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16435" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think John is right about poverty being underrated, but I think it's underrated in exactly the same way that all suffering is underrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">suffering... so are we shifting from economics to Edith Stein?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-10T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-10T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Oh my learned friends, does "Div. Hieron." mean the divine Jerome? St. Jerome? Something else? You have all been so helpful in the past.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is poverty underrated?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll take a stab - underrated as a means to santification</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-10T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-10T12:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">According to Jesus, poverty is pretty important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16441" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-10T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-10T12:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And generosity, if one has means, is necessary for salvation, or so says God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just like all suffering. "blessed are the poor," "blessed are those who mourn"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T12:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">born in a stable, no crib for a bed. King of kings and second person of the Trinity. Example one (Yes, Catherine.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's somewhat of a platitude compared to how the rest of the conversation was going...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poverty and other suffering can just as easily lead to bad effects on the soul as good effects, but God has a special place for them in his plan</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16446" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it isn't inherently a good thing, was my point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16447" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is a platitude. But how does it jive with the maximization of profit as is demanded by our current Real existing Capitalism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16448" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point was more of a societal one. Poverty can't be underrated because it's an evil. So how does one rate an evil? I mean are we lumping below physical death?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, just like suffering. That's what I was saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We also imply a certain moral failure to poverty? Especially poverty that is not temporary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What did St. Francis call poverty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16452" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(66, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"We"? just because poor people are lazy and stupid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or we might imply that the moral failure lies with society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Either way, poverty is an evil we always blame on something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">doesn't John Stossel have a bit every November on why not to give spare change to bums?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16456" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like we equivocate when we say St. Francis and "poverty" and raise the minimum wage/ welfare and "poverty"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16457" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Franciscans definitely live a different sort of "poverty" than a single mom with four kids</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">isn't poverty kind of a relative term?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16459" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T12:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are distinctions. Correcting unjust acquisition is one thing. Eliminating poverty (and how do you define it) is another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is also a lot of equivocation between poverty and inequality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like a close to home (for some) example: What is the difference between an adjunct and a tenured professor?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16462" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A part time job at starbucks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please. Adjuncts need at least two part time jobs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YEAH. That would be an injustice right under the hypocritical noses of policy wonks. . . . not to mention aging liberation theologians and their social teaching brethren.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's the thing, I can talk about poverty or inequality in my own line of vision and from what I can tell, that problem (with academia) is structural/institutional. I am not poor though insofar as a) I am single and have attendant mobility in that regard b) I have some marketable skills and one highly developed skill that I might peddle outside the tower.<br />That being said, if I say choose to keep teaching part time at colleges in Chicago and teach math on the side and work a slightly better than min wage job when things get tight, I am told that is my own choice. To which I totally agree. Does that change the structural problems with the academy? (no). Does my choosing to partake in that structure make it just in some way? Does it make me stupid to abide in the vicious circle? (Here's the moral judgment) Is it because "I undervalue/overvalue poverty"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16467" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, I ascribe no moral high ground to my choice in teaching Russian. Let's say it's my pride because I spent so long in doing it. Oh and I like it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16468" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T12:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously excellent study of poverty and work in the university context:<br />http://www.amazon.com/How-University-Works.../dp/0814799752<br />I highly recommend this book. It's polemical, but in a good way.<br />How the University Works: Higher Education and the Low-Wage Nation...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16469" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-10T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-10T12:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moral high ground aside, I wish our society valued teachers more</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16470" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is there are too many people who love their field within academia, and administrators are blatantly exploiting their love. It's not actually correct to say, as I often here, that the academic job market it "oversupplied." Lots of teaching needs to be done at the academic level. The fact that tenure-track jobs are so hard to get is the result of administrators choosing to fill those teaching needs with adjunct slave labor, rather than full-time faculty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point was that those looking to cure societal "inequalities" need to look under there nose at home first. I am firmly against the camp of all are equal. I see where it has led.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T12:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, at the same time, that is not living in poverty in the way that living on the south side of Chicago is living in poverty, with no opportunities and no connections/ support network.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, adjunct usually have the ability to find better paying work outside the academy, but they stay because they love their field. Also, sunk costs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I digress</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16475" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adjuncts often make less than shoe string budget private school teachers. The university has no excuse. The early university guilds had the best model. A book and a teacher and maybe a rented roof. Still poor but at least students weren't debt slaves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16476" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would imagine that they always make less than school teacher. But since adjuncts are paid per class (regardless of hours), it is hard to tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know what they are paid at one Jesuit institution. Pathetic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's pathetic across the board.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">now compare that to other industries. Does the guy mopping the floor work any less hard than the guy bsing with corporate bigwigs on the golf course?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The causes of our present economic ills are not solved by leveling wages. The rot is worse and deeper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16481" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T13:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">explain to me how a college president can make 1000 times an adjunct and that's just. Leveling wages may not be *the* solution, or even *a* solution, it doesn't mean that there isn't a deep injustice here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree. But correcting that unjust INequality is not what you had suggested above. The underlying causes . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . are little mentioned, little known and some, taboo. But nothing will be fixed until that system crashes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16484" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T13:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't suggested any solutions as yet, but like a good TAC grad, only criticized what I see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16485" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T14:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have the answer! Magisterium. Bwahahahahahaha!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16486" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-10T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-10T14:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">These facts make capitalism a hard pill to swallow:<br />http://www.forbes.com/.../the-85-richest-people-in-the.../<br />The 85 Richest People In The World Have As Much Wealth As The 3.5 Billion Poorest<br />And the top 1% control half the world's wealth.<br />FORBES.COM|BY LAURA SHIN</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16487" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-10T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-10T14:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Somewhere justice as gone awry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, Your objection presupposes a zero sum game and ignores the powerful force that capitalism and entrepreneurship have been in pulling people and countries out of poverty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So... What are some ideas? Going back to the question of America... Is there some way to think about the problem of individualism as the virtues of capitalism distended to vices? I see this as attendant with a cynicism towards patriotism. Are there civic virtues to be fostered to create a greater responsibility towards your immediate poor? And how do we break out of the problem of all the bs around that? (Bill Gates will reward the newest condom ideas, but what about providing local support for parents in school options for their kids and time and energy to pursue those goods?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrew, pulling some people out of poverty put putting others into poverty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^evidence for this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16492" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T14:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Remember in the old examen how defrauding the worker of his wages used to fall under the 5th commandment?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Whaley, are none of those saved states saddled with unrepayable debt? And which of those humanity loving 85 entrepeneurs hold the non zero sum notes with interest?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16494" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T14:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not for equalizing wages, but we do have to start to move towards paying workers (all workers) a living wage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16495" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T14:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think austerity laws are the more likely forecast. We wouldn't want to make the banks go hungry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sadly true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16497" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I'm not familiar with private entrepreneurs loaning money to nations. I seem to remember the Drop the Debt and Jubilee initiatives being targeted at nations holding notes. <br />Michael Beitia, Could you tell me the mechanism and give me an example of a nation that now has a lower standard of living than they had before their involvement with the free market? I don't mean a bigger gap with the West. I mean people who used to have bathrooms and clean water who now have to poop in a hole in the yard because Capitalism stole their money or standard of living.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16498" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel: here you go.<br />Andrew, see also Detroit MI</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T14:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I the D — Detroit will rise from the ashes. With no help from Capital, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16500" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T15:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, factories in China where the workers live in dormitories..... may be a higher standard of living. Prison is a higher standard of living than some inner cities. Let's help them all and put them in prison (oh, that's what we already do)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the situation with Argentina private citizens loaning money to nations?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16502" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T15:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katie Duda, I know nothing of Argentina. <br />Michael, So, wait. People making profit and obeying the market sunk Detroit? I seem to think it was giant labor unions making American car companies lose money while Toyota's American operation made more money selling the same number of better cars for less money, but not paying someone over $70 to put a bolt on. And, if living in overcrowded conditions and working long hours beats starving in a village, is that not an increase in standard of living? I don't want to do it, but I'll take it over starving, which seems to be what they were doing or they wouldn't move in to the city. Now, there may be governmental pressure, but that's not the market.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Whaley, I have a different take on the IMF. Money is power, always has been. And though Carnegie imported culture for the masses. He is part responsible for the conditions that made its importation necessary. Entrepreneurial philanthropist vs. robber baron view of these matters. Kind of like Gates: which helps to save more lives in Africa, condoms and vaccines or wells and clean water? And which is cheaper?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16504" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T15:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"the market" is kind of a myth. And if you think it is perfectly okay to close down American factories to build sweat shops in foreign countries - affecting the poor here and there - then I'm not sure we have the same copy of CST</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16505" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T15:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even aside from how well capitalism works to ease the immiseration of poverty (a great good, if only it could be proven), I'm reminded of the time someone remarked to Mr. Paietta (apropos of what I’ve haven’t the foggiest) that dogs have an exceptionally keen sense of smell, and he replied without batting an eye “For all the good it does them.”<br />Likewise, even ignoring the systematic injustices Katie and Michael have raised, it still seems to me that a wealthy capitalist society is like the dog that smells so keenly—yes the society has a good deal of wealth, but can anyone really praise the use that is made of it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're such a radical, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16507" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T15:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia 2016: Put all the poor people in prison sweat shops</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16508" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you guys seriously arguing that free markets haven't raised millions of people out of poverty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it is "ok", but we can't keep a factory going and losing money and then the people selling that product they used to make need someone to produce it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unions did that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16511" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T15:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia 2016: three squares and cheap American made underwear. YES WE CAN!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sí se puede!<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Last I checked, Whaley, the garment companies are doing pretty well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm tagging in the illustrious David Quackenbush to channel George Gilder and set this straight, as I have to go do manual labor for tips and slightly above minimum wage, elitist that I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And people thought this thread was dead!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hanes's stock has gone from 20 to 108 per share in the last five years, but they can't raise the wages in Haiti.......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not arguing against capitalism. But it's not a force for good on its own. And I go back to my original critique of how is poverty a vice or a sign of vice ignores some serious problems</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T15:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not saying that all big companies are innocent, but that's a long way from capitalism forcing countries into poverty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am curious how people understand the argentine debt default though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not countries, people<br />countries are mythological</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I'm going to interrupt with this BREAKING NEWS: Apparently the Diocese of Phoenix, where I work, is going to have "the best educational technology professional development breakout sessions for Educator Day." Needless to say, I am quite excited - nay, delighted by this.<br />There is a suggested list of topics, but they are open to additional ones. Here are my suggestions:<br />"Stealing Fire From Heaven: A Hermeneutic Tract on the World Wide Web and the Fate of Prometheus"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"This Dragon Has A Face In All Your Homes: A Commentary on the Modern Libido for the Moving Image"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The Crucifix and the Chromebook: The Power of Distraction for Contemporary Heretics"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16524" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"How to Keep Your Students in the Cave: Basics of Projector Use in the Classroom"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Let Us Make Man In Our Image: The Jackdaw God and Very Shiny Toys"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16526" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Where Have All The Chalkboards Gone? Luddite Nostalgia in Today's Teachers"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The Mimic Has No Voice of His Own: The Philosophy of Photocopiers"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16528" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I drink your milkshake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16529" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T15:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Kindle-ing the fire in their hearts" (Something like that)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I welcome your suggestions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Invention and innovation create new markets and advance western civilizAtion in the 3rd world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If technology advancement. Stopped then the communist arguments for distribution hold water, since it is just a process of trading existing goods. But if new kinds of goods are created that leapfrog current barriers reducing development costs material/labor greater time can be spent in academia and learning. The real product needing development is clean water and electricity. Both can be solved through nuclear proliferation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only true production is by the land and it is not a zero sum game. Moreover, new goods do not require new technology. We need to step back and perfect the old before we are all buried in broken wares from China.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-10T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-10T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking as a canon law student who brings a Kindle to Church, there's no need to be a luddite - pretty sure prayer reflects what comes out more than what goes in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But additive manufacturing is awesome and carbon fiber makes everything better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"the only true production is by the land." Sorry, what does this mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16537" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Natural growth I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that doesn't seem very relevant then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16539" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T15:54:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sheesh, someone made a list of the topics I have views on that create the greatest screaming against me, and I wasn't here.<br />Mr. Neilll, giving state of the art tech to many developing countries creates massive social problems. The Amish may have taken it way too far, but their principle in whether to accept a new techology is based on their valuing labor and community....sometimes intermediate technology is how you raise people, all of them, out of poverty, rather than creating a modern city destined to return to squalor, as the countryside gets poor, by introducing leaps that mean greater production than can be absorbed by fewer people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16540" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In anycase, I take Redeeming Economics by Mueller to be the definitive must read here. From the actual economics side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16541" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not if it is just referencing food, but wood and other materials are grown and are renewable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what you just tried to say. What is referencing food? And what does this have to do with growing things that are renewable? Antecedents and pronouns people! Come on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Middle East is a great study on that, rapid growth from Bedouin to civilization without the admixture of effort</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16544" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cell phones are horrible typing devices forgive me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16545" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T15:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm all thumbs and autocorrect</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I responded to Jeff above. And it caused confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which nations does mueller take into study in his book?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16548" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The middle east is a terrible example. And has very little to do with the problem I mentioned. Sure, shitloads of cash for oil have a way of transforming a society. Not repeatable in most instances. I was refering the problem of introducing modern production into societies with pre-modern production still going on. The effect is usually devastating poverty for many. Intermediate steps, not leaps, are cheaper, can be done more widely, and avoid or mitigate the problems of increasing production too rapidly. <br />We only need to see the moral depravity of our own nation and the destruction of the family to see how technology is not always good in the concrete.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mueller? Oh, he is not writing on developing nations but economic theory in general. Most studies he uses are of the US.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Neill, Marxist theory is actually looking forward to your fictional leap frogging technology. In reality, technology that outspaces labor creates disparity, not boatloads of leisure. If it worked as you think, Marx is right...you aren't a Marxist are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16551" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T16:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mueller is excellent in every way</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the Middle East since it is a real example and modern issue; the closet American analogous society is Indian gaming. <br />Indian gaming brought rapid growth and income to a society that was doomed to fail. However, if you provide a large amount of income to a society and do not require effort the society consumes more but does not necessarily advance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16553" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would you do if you were provided $20k/mo with no work requirement?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this redistribution? Is it working ?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha... I make no claims as to what I am. I believe in technology development, Risk management, identifying future problems and offering solutions (for a fee).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem in the Middle East is free money to citizens as long as there is oil and gas. The "smart" leaders realize. They only have 20 years left. So they need to work right now to develop both alternatives to oil as power as well as develop a new export or service. The fields they initially identified are education, manufacturing and medicine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They desire to create a world class education system to develop an academic "Mecca" (pun intended) university system. The first thing they want to teach is English.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The challenge is nobody in the nation wants to go to school, since they already have more money than they can spend, without having to work for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, best I can tell, I have no idea what conversation you are having...so have fun with it. I am honestly not following the trail of thought here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16560" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">George Gilder?! Mr. Whaley you jest....do we really need more clap-trap on this thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T16:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks for the Mueller tip. That goes for Jehoshaphat as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not know of the "clap-trap" you refer to, as I've only dipped in and out of this thread. That being said, I think Gilder understands the nature of supply as a driver, the non-zero sum game that is our reality, and the risk/gift that underlies the entrepreneurial initiative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16563" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hear George Gilder and the Discovery Institute comes up...man doesn't understand nature.<br />That and his fantasy about moral capitalists...the man's version of reality is a nice fiction land. Maybe even capitalism as it ought to be, but not as it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I wrote my thesis on business/entrepreneurship as a mode to embody love to human persons, consider myself both moral and an entrepreneur along the lines of his description, and would love some examples of how he misunderstands nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16565" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T16:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is once again evidence that TAC grads don't study enough history. The closest American analogue to "free economy" was the industrial monopolists. Only through government intervention, violence, concessions by capital to labor, and more violence, did ANYTHING close to modern American economy come to be. It wasn't through the capitalists, but contra the capitalists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">quick quiz A: Capital or B: Labor<br />1: 40 hour work week<br />2: elimination of child labor<br />3: workman's comp<br />4: pensions<br />5: safer working conditions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(answer is B)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, you wrote a TAC thesis? And so??<br />You may be moral. But his view of the moral capitalist in naïve. There are moral capitalists, sure. That wasn't the point.<br />And you are a support of Intelligent Design too? Why do you reject St. Thomas, teleology, and the Aristotelian idea of nature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16569" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes that was snarky. But come on, I wrote my thesis on predestination and God's universal salvific will, therefore I must have definitively answered that debate!<br />BA theses are fun to read in the future...they are rather naïve attempts usually, but good ones...clumsy gropings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T16:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't deny what you say, Mr. Whaley. It is common in small to mid size business. But big business is mostly about busting balls. The nice guys are window dressing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Common? You need a quick tour of my work (medium business)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See the whole problem is the the system is not a mode to embody love. Man has went crazy. Good and bad people can equally be capitalists. And are. The system itself, insofar as one naïvely considers Gilder's description to be reality, and not a construct meant to simplify things for the sake of an argument, is amoral. Gilder tries to make it moral per se and that is so absurd I don't think even he believes it.<br />And I don't accept his construct, which is different than Novak's construct, and different than any other number of constructs vaguely called capitalism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16573" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why it is impossible to get them to speak of "Real Existing Capitalism" or REC as I refer to it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, I think I may have misread your question/statement of : <br />Mr. Neilll, giving state of the art tech to many developing countries creates massive social problems. The Amish may have taken it way too far, but their principle in whether to accept a new techology is based on their valuing labor and community....sometimes intermediate technology is how you raise people, all of them, out of poverty, rather than creating a modern city destined to return to squalor, as the countryside gets poor, by introducing leaps that mean greater production than can be absorbed by fewer people." Are you suggesting that third world countries should not develop? I was (poorly) attempting to relate the economies of developing nations in the middle east to the US economy based upon their current export (oil).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T17:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">more common . . . more common in the past . . . . than big business</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha! not my experience at all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cause you're in Chicago </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16578" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, I grew up in Mormon crony land too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16579" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Neill, no, I was suggesting to should be aided in developing in a healthy, organic way, not by leaps, but by intermediate steps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16580" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T17:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">В единстве-- победа!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My thesis sucks, qua thesis, but I am actually more impressed by it every time I read it, as a set of original ideas, many of which I have acted upon. <br />That was snarky by the way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you all look at business through the lens of giant corps. I look at it through the lens of a mom and pop store. That's where I was raised and what I do now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I view a large business, ideally, as the out-growth of one that started small, but had to grow to achieve it's ends. If a bunch of evil people betray the nature of the entrepreneurial life, it doesn't change what it is any more than bad priests redefine the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16584" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T17:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unfortunately, most people are not employed at mom and pop stores.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but they have, at least in the West to start one. Actually, roughly 100% of the new jobs created in the last few years have been in small business, when you factor all the big biz jobs lost and small ones added.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16586" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Entrepreneurship" is sort of a weasel word. Define it please</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16587" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:17:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a) too often undefined, and b) too often regarded as a sort of "meta-occupation" since it is supposedly the great "job creator"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16588" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I understand it is the age of the company, not its size that creates new jobs. Bringing new jobs in and out as they succeed or fail. (Not an econ person, but that seems pretty obvious around the city... as small as that niche is)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16589" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T17:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is this Jehoshaphat and what have you done with Jason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA makes the point. It is a magic quality we hold in reverence, not to denigrate Whaley's ambitions at all. But oftener it is the quality that separates a Tesla from an Edison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16591" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Clare Coffey" data-date="2014-09-10T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clare Coffey at 2014-09-10T17:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eat the entrepreneurs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16592" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll be content for now with just defining them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Clare Coffey" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clare Coffey at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^reformist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whaley, I am not sure it quite matters whether you see large business as a perversion... It seems that that perversion keeps coming around to capitalism, that on its own has nothing to prevent it. <br />Also, "small business" seems slippery. I have a friend who works for a small startup as an offshoot of the sun times. there is nothing mom and pop about it, but it is still "small business."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16595" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">also everyone Clare Coffey is not a TAC alumna don't be fooled</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16596" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Clare Coffey" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Clare Coffey at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or am I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Defining them out of existence?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Duh-duh-DUNNNN.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16599" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we'd need to know what exactly we're talking about first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-10T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-10T17:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe or anyone, I am dying to know what P's position was on the topics you listed, but I just cannot dig that way back. Care to divulge a few more details? If not, then carry on, people .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">look even "small business" is a "large business" once it's hiring people outside the families of the original "entrepreneurs". And we need to define "entrepreneur"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is P? Peregrine? Peterson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-10T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-10T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, Peregrine. But now that you mention it, Peterson.s would be interesting as well, though I bet I could guess what he'd say </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Entrepreneur- one who starts his own business.<br />Let's critique!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16605" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"starts" can be said in many ways</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Entrepreneurship is the art that has as its end the creation of context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for added value to create a surplus of value, usually involving the direction of other's labor in that context. In the more modern context, it seems inevitably to involve innovation, largely in the combination of concepts taken from pre-existing models, contexts, and products. How's that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16607" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew won't speak his mind about Gilder for fear of causing a schism in the De Koninck Project</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Define "value"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16609" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-10T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-10T17:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know how you people keep up with this and still function on a daily basis. !!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, entrepreneuship is a) the State, and b) inventors?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">something worth something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16612" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If entrepreneur means the one that starts a business, then it again is an amoral term and activity. Good and bad people do that...<br />Mr. Whaley's definition seems a far more obscure way of saying that same thing. But also asserting, not fully accurately, that it inevitably involves innovation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16613" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">added "something worth something" to create a surplus of "something worth something"<br />doesn't mean something</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say: anyone who has made great success in business regardless of means (ie made lots of green)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">since corporations are people under American law, then are corporations entrepreneurs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Inventors would be an example, if they develop the idea and sell it or license it. The state is not what I have in mind, but could use those same principles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16617" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heck , " Entrepreneurship is the art that has as its end the creation of context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for added value to create a surplus of value, usually involving the direction of other's labor in that context."<br />"Pimping is the arts that has as its end the creation of a context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for the added value of sex to create a surplus of value, usually involving the direction of others' sex labor in the context"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16618" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Entrepreneur: someone who skims off the labor of others for his meal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua: pimpin' aint easy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, is wood worth something? Is a birdhouse worth more? Is a cool design of a birdhouse that does something one has never done worth even more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tesla vs Edison. The difference is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, You sound like a slave.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a birdhouse is worth EVEN MORE if I can get someone else to make it, and sell it, and harvest the materials for it, and still get paid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16624" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Its still not clear to me what an entrepreneur is on Andrew's first definition. It comprehends everything from architectonic legislation to money laundering</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and pimping</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16626" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T17:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I don't know what you heard about me / but I'm a motherf(*^&^&*ing P.I.M.P." —50 Cent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16627" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Andrew, don't make me post old BR videos</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why do the "others" whose labor the entrepreneur is "directing" need him at all for their market?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^they have the principle within themselves</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not all entrepreneurship is moral. A pimp may be one, but an evil one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16631" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I heard that one before</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you say pimping is not entrepreneurship, then you must have another aspect of definition. And if it isn't arbitrary, then it should be evident<br />Betamax was far superior to VHS, quality and innovation wise...but VHS took off...it was simply cheaper and good enough. So betamax was, in some sense, a greater value, technologically, but the market value wasn't there....just as a cool design for a birdhouse only has economic value if the market grants it, not because it is innovative</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's bracket the morality question, I'm interested the utility question. Do we need the "entrepreneur"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat Escalante, Why does Michael Beitia not own a parts store?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16636" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I lack the architectonic principle of robber baron</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16637" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is this "creation of a set of relationships"? Is he like a translator between people who dont speak the same language enough to be able to trade?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16638" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">So entrepreneurs, capitalists, laborers, consumers, etc may all be immoral. And the system they are involved in is at best amoral...so we have already rejected Gilder....good.<br />So Escalante's question is not the next one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(206, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">entrepreneur: what you want to be known as. money laundering: what you do. I still say it is nothing but being successful at making money which excludes many hardworking honest business men</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and people don't be ganging up on Andrew- give him the chance to speak and be taken seriously for goodness sake</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gilder doesn't claim that there can be no evil done in that context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">take back the slave comment and I might</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16643" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But then it doesn't embody love....as you clamed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fair enough!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about Player Hater Michael Beitia? lol. Seriously, you do sound like someone who thinks the bigger organization of all this is super easy and that the only real work is with calloused hands. If I'm not mistaken, you're currently chatting on FB while some guy pays you right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope I'm at home</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16647" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you gotta put "pays" in air quotes though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, quit! Start a shop! Start a distribution company. Do something. Risk! Come up with ideas and make the picture in your head out of wood, steel, one and zero, pixels, whatever. You are not stuck and if you are it is not Capitalism's fault.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16649" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to run a business, ironically and wasting my time taking on a room full of scholars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16650" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T17:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Bootstraps myth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey! not me, that's the rest of these folks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">State was thrown around. How is the State an entrepreneur? Insofar as it has an ability in some cases to turn the worker into a consumer?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder who is going to feed my five kids while I'm risking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16654" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, mustn't insult capitalism....never mind that an "entrepreneur" cannot always bootstrap a business or gain external financing.<br />According to the Catholic Church I should be able to work for wages sufficient, if I live frugally, to acquire productive property of my own</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"live frugally" is contextual as well. The school district I'm in requires high speed internet and wifi at home.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Andrew Whaley" data-date="2014-09-10T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Whaley at 2014-09-10T17:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, people with kids move up and start shit all the time. But, and here's the rub, be ready to work 100 hours a week for a while and it might burn down. I did. I will again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16657" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T17:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">poop</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16658" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T17:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one wants to demonize entrepreneurs. The problem is that we are living with a Reagan zombie myth that claims that we ought to take from the poor and the elderly and give tax credits / exempt from tax businesses and entrepreneurs because then things will "trickle down." Manifestly bullshit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16659" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I shouldn't have to work 100 hours a week. I have a family and would like to see my children before I'm dead or they're gone. See how well it works in families where the father is gone all the time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16660" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I am. I've worked for some really shitty ones</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-10T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-10T17:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The entrepreneur is a different and better thing than the capitalist in principle, *but* entrepreneurship as it presently exists exists within a context of capitalism, and looking only at the entrepreneur, or even worse, the IDEAL entrepreneur, means you aren't really looking at the entrepreneur in his context</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T17:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But how do you define entrepeneur?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16663" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T17:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aha! So the 100 hour a week thing (which is amazing for those who can and do do it), is that inherently noble? Or is it noble for some and not for others- meaning it would be a sign of virtue in one (wo)man and a sign of vice in another?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16664" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T17:59:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is not the case for many of us, despite efforts. And Mr. Whaley, you are not using the word ironically correctly.<br />I blocked a friend for a while that blamed me for my economic problems. Not because I don't bear some responsibility, but because he stupidly blamed me for not emigrating...as if being penniless I could just get up and leave the place of my birth, and my family, and automatically succeed through "effort" transplanted somewhere else without social relations<br />And Mr. Whaley, it is a n injustice if you have to work 100 hrs a week. It is an injustice if both parents have to work. I will take the Catholic Church's side on that.<br />I have been working overtime, overnights, etc. My company doesn't pay me everything it owes, disputes never resolve (just sent an email because they underpaid me, neglecting overtime, again) and takes up enough time to hamper other efforts...and the money is just about gone, to bills, when I do get paid. So should I quit and have nothing to pay the bills but finally have the energy to "risk" starting a business?<br />My lord, the condescension of such a myopic worldview. "Just work harder" It is nice for you if you had the opportunity to start a business. When I cannot even afford, when I do have the time, to go to daily Mass because I cannot put gas in my tank, maybe, just maybe what little I have isn't worth risking unless I have a solid business plan...and maybe where I am hasn't offered me such an opportunity, and maybe I cannot afford to leave...but I cannot blame anyone but myself. Is that the view? I should be able to work a reasonable job for a reasonable pay. That would be just. Not everyone is meant to be an entrepreneur, especially an employer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16665" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T17:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be neglecting my state in life, Katie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16666" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T18:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">100 work week was not a sign of virtue in my case. Acedia comes to mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16667" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T18:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pieper, in the Leisure book of his, makes that point, that workaholism and acedia are closely linked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16668" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T18:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now if you excuse me, I have about 2 hrs to make dinner, clean, get some coffee and then I have to leave for another 12 hr overnight shift, where apparently I do not work hard enough in otherwise I would "move up"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16669" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">no no no. you're just not SMART enough</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16670" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or dedicated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16671" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T18:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My boss's boss thinks I am smarter than he. And his boss thinks I am the smartest person working for him.... so it must be that dedication part</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16672" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is not having a boss important to entrepreneurship?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16673" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T18:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*monocle monocle monocle*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16674" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Katie, it is. entrepreneur is the Indie business owner</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So it seems like, yes, there need to be bosses? Or is there some egalitarian other mode?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, boss doesn't = entrepreneur</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And there also need to be people who are bossed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm technically a boss at my work..... technically</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16679" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I would assume Erin is the boss at home)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16680" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, it's an autonomous collective</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah yes. Like an academic department</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no like a commune</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16683" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">there, I said it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16684" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're fooling yourself woman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16685" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're living in dicatorship, a self perpetuating autocracy, in which the workers...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me? No. I am distracting myself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16687" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh there you go, bringing in class again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16688" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(MOnty Python)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://2.bp.blogspot.com/.../are-you-not-entertained.gif<br />2.BP.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16691" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good pickup<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0<br />Dennis The Constitutional Peasant<br />Monty Python and the Holy Grail is a 1975 film about King Arthur and his knights who embark on a low-budget...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(209, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">good pickup!? that was the point of my "autonomous collective"..... sheesh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16693" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's what I mean. I caught your reference there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16694" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">anyway, Katie, yes some people need to be told what to do at work, and some people need to be telling them what to do. Most work is hierarchical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16695" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:36:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now we see the violence inherent in the system.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">stop it Booty</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-10T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-10T18:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shut up, I order you to shut up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katie Duda" data-date="2014-09-10T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katie Duda at 2014-09-10T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So not having a boss essential? Does that tap into a desire to be autonomous?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16699" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably. It might be an Americanist thingy, like co-operatives seem to be more Western European. But yes, no boss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do any of you have opinions on the nature of offset agreements? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offset_agreement<br />Offset agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Defense offset agreements are legal trade practices in...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">seems like the worst of cronyism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the world must be weaponized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, TNET, what were the most distinctive features of Roman law? ...asking for a friend...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T19:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is forced bartering not cronyism. For example you want to sell product in India? It may be better/cheaper to open a factory their since the tariff posed on American products prices the goods outside of competition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16705" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-10T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-10T19:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well their most ancient piece of true legislation is The Twelve Tables. Basically after Tarquin the Proud was expelled from Rome there was class warfare between the patricians and the plebeians, and the plebs left and refused to come back until basic rights were established for all citizens, rich or poor. The Twelve Tables are pretty nifty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T19:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you haven't lived until you've lived Livy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am still trying to figure out that off set agreement. Is it forcing the purchase of weapons? Or just regulating?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-10T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-10T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, what do you do, if you don't mind me asking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T19:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I annoy USC students mostly....working with the housing admin at USC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-10T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-10T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. Jeff. I think it's dangling lots of irresistable fruit, meeting US geopolitical strategic "defense" targets, cronyism domestic and foreign, and some forced bartering to boot. And that's just the above table deals. [Actually it makes me kinda sick. And I can't figure how it "works" financially for our arms dealers.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-10T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-10T19:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, I have read the Twelve Tables. What does "dedicated to the infernal gods" mean? Sounds scary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16712" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-10T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-10T20:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson - kenz may be able she's some light on your USC run in this morning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-10T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-10T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://m.facebook.com/story.php...<br />Matthew J. Peterson<br />Dear Young White Male in the shiny black A6 with the USC decal who weaves and passes and cuts in front of us from the right lane only to slam on his brakes: we all hate you.<br />-Los Angeles<br />PS No offense meant to our many friends who drive Audis or who went to USC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16714" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-10T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-10T20:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">leaving just now....most of the fancier cars coming in at USC are driven as if by dicks....who needs to speed around the bends of a parking garage?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16715" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T21:52:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Kunz DONT CROSS THE STREAMS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16716" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T22:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My purpose of posting on offsets is this is a real world business problem and the real world "customer" need. Philosophical solutions or ideal economies are polite and nice, but if you want a moral solution or moral problem to solve, then develop the technology they need while drinking their milkshake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16717" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T22:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nDbeqj-1XOo<br />Pink Floyd - Us and Them<br />Us and Them And after all we're only ordinary men Me, and you God only knows it's not what we would choose...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to ask, for those who were arguing that bathing suits were immodest, and to the same ones whom argued that certain scientific body parts were offensive/immoral, I'm curious to ask...why? Is it that you are, hmm, how shall I say, turned on? I'm not trying to be offensive, only curious. Also, for those who believe that, what are your opinions on men's attire at the beach? Or is it entirely up to woman to keep men from "tempting thoughts"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T23:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Burqinis for all!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16720" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-10T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-10T23:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and burgers!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16721" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should start a fashion line, Daniel P</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seductive ankles...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep, that's what I'll call it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16724" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T23:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing seduces like modesty. <br />http://www.eastessence.com/islamic-clothing/modest-swimwear/<br />BURQINI & SWIMWEAR<br />EastEssence.com offers a wide array of affordable Full-cover swim suits. We offer two types of fabrics. The...<br />EASTESSENCE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahahahaha! Nice!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha east essence?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-10T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-10T23:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You just turned me off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bloody hell</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16729" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-10T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-10T23:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see enough of that on campus. Also the full on no eye hole burquas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16730" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-10T23:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still trying to figure out what garment was "named after the atom bomb test site" (wasn't it called trinity)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-10T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-10T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On campus? Where are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What campus, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16733" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-10T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-10T23:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Burqini, it's what every good catholic woman should wear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John? How do they see? Or walk? I could make a whole lot of jokes, but.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16735" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T00:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">C'mon people! Entertain me! Panem et circenses!<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_16737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T00:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's late</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.independent.co.uk/.../mars-hill-church-closes.... Penis homes. There you go<br />Mars Hill church closes branches after founder Mark Driscoll calls women 'penis...<br />INDEPENDENT.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16739" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T00:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha! I saw something about this in the paper today ... thought it was a joke, or a mis-quote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16740" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T00:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh no! The word "penis" was mentioned. No one get turned on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16741" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Kunz" data-date="2014-09-11T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Kunz at 2014-09-11T00:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/cRU9BT9M9Iw<br />Tonight Show Family Feud with Steve Harvey and Jason Segel<br />Steve Harvey hosts a special Tonight Show edition of...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16742" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T00:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh no, all reall!!!! lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T00:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kunz! Funny as hell!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T00:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81APjIsXJ28<br />Cocaine's Hell of a Drug<br />Chappelle's Show - Cocaine's Hell of a Drug.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">P is a woman's home. Rolls my eyes so far back in my head! And then I laugh!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16746" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T08:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T08:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Regarding the Burqini, and other things like that, has anyone else ever found "purity" laws/morality to be an odd subject? Purity isn't like any other virtue. "It's hard to keep them on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus". A person can grow in virtues like temperance, courage, etc. but purity seems unidirectional. I'm not even sure it is a virtue.<br />Further, everyone knows bacon is forbidden under Jewish food purity laws, but cheeseburgers too? I don't know if I can get on the train...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T08:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T08:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truthfully, I'm starting to feel badly for Mark Driscoll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T08:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T08:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had to look him up. Ew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T08:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T08:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mark Driscoll is a jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T08:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T08:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and a misogynist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T08:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T08:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jewish purity laws make sense in a pre-refrigeration technology day. Since the goal is "bacteria separation" of vegetables, meats, cheese/dairy all need to be separated. But with "modernization" that mostly went away for the majority of Jewish families. (But there are those that follow the letter of the law and not he spirit)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16752" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T08:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T08:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If a bacon cheeseburger is impure, I don't want to be pure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T08:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but I feel bad for him. All this digging up stuff he said 15 years ago on the internet is getting vindictive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OT purity doesn't map very well onto Aristotelian virtue. It all has to do with being set apart. And OT purity doesn't map very well onto modern ideas where purity tends to mean something like sexual innocence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T09:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OT is law. Aristotle is virtue. Agreed w/ Samantha that a lot of the OT law was purely to set the Israelites apart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T09:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a lot of Christian morality centers on purity. But it isn't even a virtue in the Christian sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it's a virtue at all. There's no mean of purity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MB, why wouldn't purity be a virtue in the Christian sense? Is purity needed to embrace the virtues?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you can't increase in purity, only decrease</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16760" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">conceived in sin and born in corruption...i think people can increase in purity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's an equivocation. once a person reaches the age of reason, where virtues can increase, it is impossible to increase in purity, only decrease. Furthermore, it is evidenced by "physical purity". One is either a virgin, or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Natura Pura: On the Recovery of Nature in the Doctrine of Grace...mucho equivocation in nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Lord Our God is One....so there--Matthew J. Peterson is The Thread beautiful again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">though your sins be as scarlet....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16765" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(40, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sed contra, ST IIa IIae Q 151 A 1 ad 2: "As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 18), "so long as her mind holds to its purpose, whereby she has merited to be holy even in body, not even the violence of another's lust can deprive her body of its holiness, which is safeguarded by her persevering continency." He also says (De Civ. Dei i, 18) that "in the mind there is a virtue which is the companion of fortitude, whereby it is resolved to suffer any evil whatsoever rather than consent to evil.""</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16766" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I think purity is much equivocated on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. 18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel--I shall send you a facebook friend request.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, if one consents to evil, then purity is irrevocably damaged, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but what if one doesn't consent to evil...can purity be restored?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh, I'd defer to the many many people who know more than I, but as far as I can see purity might be taken to refer to innocence which once lost is lost (though recoverable in a sense through baptism and confession); or it could refer to a habit of keeping oneself free from impurity and then no, the damage isn't irrevocable; or it could refer to keeping the OT law and I'm not sure but I think one could be come clean again (if that's the same thing) through certain actions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">joel seems to moi to know plenty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-11T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-11T10:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">'We must be pure. I do not speak merely of the purity of the senses. We must observe great purity in our will, in our intentions, in all our actions.'<br />--St. Peter Julian Eymard<br />God desires from you the least degree of purity of conscience more than all the works you can perform.<br />--St. John of the Cross<br />Those whose hearts are pure are the temples of the Holy Spirit.<br />St. Lucy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i think a certain purity is necessary to embrace and live the christian virtues. that is all....and through confession and reparation, purity and the virtues can increase.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16775" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-11T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-11T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Holy Purity is granted by God when it is asked for with humility." <br />--St. Josemaria Escriva<br />"Chastity is a difficult, long term matter; one must wait patiently for it to bear fruit, for the happiness of loving kindness which it must bring. But at the same time, chastity is the sure way to happiness."<br />--Pope John Paul II</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(205, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Marie, I've heard it said that all persons are Temples Of The Holy Spirit, and there in rests our greatest dignity--but a temple can be defiled...old idea i know-but ideas have a tendency to thrive in certain pockets in cyberspace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Marie, I like Escriva as well...I will send you a facebook friend request.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16778" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">are we talking habit of avoiding the impure, or of innocence?<br />wrt confession, the effect of sin is still on the soul even if sanctifying grace is restored</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes-the effects of sin are there---the affects of reparation can also be there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-11T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-11T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, I was wondering the same thing </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not the way it is taught, which is why I've always had a problem with purity based moralities</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh I missed your earlier comments Anne Marie. work computer doesn't update as fast as one woud like</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you lost me mb on the "way it is taught"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thread lost to moi.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16785" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">morality manuals. Especially for young women. the phrase "damaged goods comes to mind"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-11T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-11T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys really need to read some JPII. You are losing out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16787" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the common modern use of purity as "sexual innocence" is particularly Christian at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">got it MB...i wasn't aware of your reference...thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16789" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">STA has interesting stuff here: "Et ideo virginitas est quaedam specialis virtus, habens se ad castitatem sicut magnificentia ad liberalitatem. " IIa IIae Q 152 A3. Cf. IIa IIae Q151 (on chastity).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ryan Burke!!! How are you???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you type, or just use the "like" function?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">chastity does not equal purity. Chastity has a much more specific meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anne Marie-I've read a fair amount of JPII but more Ratzinger--are you familiar with Srodowisko? It was a little group of JPII friends that he went hiking with.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chastity has a more general meaning, at least if by purity we mean sexual purity, which seems like what we are talking about now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16795" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the term means milieu, but also how the self affects the milieu--and how the milieu affects the self.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, what do you mean Samantha when you say " I don't think the common modern use of purity as "sexual innocence" is particularly Christian at all"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16797" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-11T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-11T10:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doing much better! I can type one-handed. Liking is just easier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16798" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok, like away! Glad to hear it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-11T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-11T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ratzinger is the bomb too. And I wanted to add that my comment was meant in a friendly way, not condescending. JPII 's writings are so incredibly rich. I just wish everyone read them because they really shed so much light on the topic of innocence, purity, chastity, marriage and family and so much more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it's a Christian concept. It's not used in the Bible that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16801" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus definitely wasn't concerned with Old Testament purity. He talked with women in public, including prostitutes, he dined with notorious sinners, he didn't wash his hands, he broke the Sabbath for different reasons, and his followers would begin eating unclean foods.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yup, and he also told people to sin no more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think scholars dispute that, Catherine Ryland</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-11T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-11T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, what do you mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That Jesus did these things is a sign that purity is important (though not as important as love), not that sexual purity didn't matter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Anne Marie" data-date="2014-09-11T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anne Marie at 2014-09-11T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On both accounts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, consider STA's response to the objection that virginity cannot be a virtue since it is not restored by penance, IIa IIae Q 152 Art 3 ad 3:<br />Virtue can be recovered by penance as regards that which is formal in virtue, but not as to that which is material therein. For if a magnificent man has squandered all his wealth he does not recover his riches by repenting of his sin. In like manner a person who has lost virginity by sin, recovers by repenting, not the matter of virginity but the purpose of virginity.<br />As regards the matter of virginity there is that which can be miraculously restored by God, namely the integrity of the organ, which we hold to be accidental to virginity: while there is something else which cannot be restored even by miracle, to wit, that one who has experienced venereal lust should cease to have had that experience. For God cannot make that which is done not to have been done, as stated in the FP, Question [25] , Article [4].</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, I think I see the confusion, gimme a minute</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16809" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">even the Gods cannot change the past.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16810" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't mean that he didn't care about morality, but that he didn't follow the expected purity/cleanness codes of his time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16811" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously, what we would call chastity is important in the Old and especially New Testaments. But I think the use of "purity" to refer specifically to sexual innocence reflects a later pre-occupation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16812" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks to Jesus we no longer stone women for adultery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Catherine Ryland, a lot of scholars think Jesus did keep the expected purity/cleanness codes of his time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or at least that he kept the codes, but not to the exacting interpretations of the Pharisees</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps, but he did many things which caused the Pharisees to look askance at his idea of morality. (e.g. the things I mentioned above).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16818" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but a strong case can be made that Jesus's differences with the Pharisees were about interpretation of the Law, not a rejection of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The letter kills, but the spirit gives life..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--you don't think the Church Fathers cared about virginity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the law was pretty clear about stoning women for adultery, for example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16822" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, are you trying to make trouble?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16823" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T10:54:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trying to count how many possible tenure track positions TNET has probably already lost me. But then again, that all started with attending my beloved alma mater in the first place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, I'm up for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">by "later preoccupations" I may have been referring to the Church Fathers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you looked at St. Thomas's article on Virginity? I think he makes a nice distinction both w/r/t how it is a virtue in relation to chastity and the way in which it is (and isn't) lost through sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16827" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T10:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">the strong preoccupation that most early cultures have with sexual purity have to do with women as property</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb, we can't change the past, but people are called to repair the world</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and spoils of war.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and circumcision for men was a mock castration ritual...deep baby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">huh. don't know what that last thing means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">war and violence and vicious psychological control...Jesus tried to free people from all that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, was it ever discussed at your college that male circumcision was a castration ritual?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or that polygamy and women as property was a consequence of vicious desert politics, scarcity, and constant genocidal war?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16835" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Women have been treated shabbily to horribly throughout history and across cultures. I'm not sure the early church or even ancient Mesopotamia stand out in regards to mistreatment of women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16836" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">not that I'm aware of. maybe in the boy's dorm. they talked about all kinds of crazy stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not that crazy: AIM:<br />In the earliest records of human religion, castration was regarded as an act of devotion. Moreover, the ritual of circumcision is still followed by many modern religions. In this article, we have exposed the archeological, historical, cultural and religious evidence between the ancient ritual of castration and circumcision.<br />MATERIALS AND METHODS:<br />We reviewed the reports about circumcision and castration in the English, French, and Turkish literature.<br />RESULT:<br />Both the rituals of circumcision and castration had similar aims in human religions.<br />CONCLUSION:<br />The ritual of castration evolved into circumcision as a less-invasive and bloody procedure than castration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16839" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">secrets everywhere. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16840" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I recall, a lot of people at TAC thought polygamy was in accordance with natural law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, let's discuss!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, if most of the young men are dead fighting the old chiefs wars...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16843" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-11T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-11T11:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's because it totally is, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And now who's starting trouble?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the castrated are frequently pure. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_16846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh heavens....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the ownership stuff can be gender neutral.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for all the women. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUT9KQ-LuaU&index=9...<br />The Kinks - Superman<br />Ray's my superman! Enjoy!<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Polygamy is NOT in accordance with natural law, but I can see how one might make such a mistake if the only good of marriage one acknowledges is the good of procreation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">as certain Bishops of Hippo did</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEep67akIn4...<br />The Kinks - Apeman 1970<br />The Kinks - Apeman 1970 I think I'm sophisticated cos I'm living my life like a good homosapien But all around me...<br />YOUTUBE.COM|BY THE KINKS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it therefore contrary to the natural law? And if so, why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16853" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">polygamy is bad for everyone. it goes against God's original design for marriage as manifested in Genesis. therefore etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but what if most of the young men are dead from war, and the adversarial tribes are trying to steal the women....And there was no talking snake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16855" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T11:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure, I suppose it could be the least bad of several terrible options</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or maybe love God, love one another--the whole law depends on this...Love Jesus. Hail Yahweh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">than the whole natural/moral law thing kind of flows...peace harmony structure....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16858" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the women at the well....Love G in spirit and truth, these are the worshippers G wants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is murder against the natural law Joel? how about abandoning male offspring?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">moses (the law giver) abandoned to the river, to save him from political murder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">flowing like a river...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think polygamy is partially opposed to natural law, and wholly opposed to the new law. See Summa Theologiae Supplement Q 65 Art. 1.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a bit of a shame that we don't read a little bit of Thomas on marriage at TAC, since he puts Augustine's views in context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16864" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T12:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">An examination of Mormon polygamous practice shows murder and abandonment as systemic. IF those are against the natural law, THEN polygamy is against the natural law</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think polygamy is against the natural law, though secondarily. Just for the record.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does "secondarily" mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are so many excellent arguments against polygamy that it's hard to pick just one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">God allowed or encouraged or commanded something agin the natural law?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T12:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Strong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read Summa Theologiae Supplement to Part III Q 65 "on plurality of wives".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"But an action may be improportionate either to the principal or to the secondary end, and in either case this happens in two ways. First, on account of something which wholly hinders the end; for instance a very great excess or a very great deficiency in eating hinders both the health of the body, which is the principal end of food, and aptitude for conducting business, which is its secondary end. Secondly, on account of something that renders the attainment of the principal or secondary end difficult, or less satisfactory, for instance eating inordinately in respect of undue time. Accordingly if an action be improportionate to the end, through altogether hindering the principal end directly, it is forbidden by the first precepts of the natural law, which hold the same place in practical matters, as the general concepts of the mind in speculative matters. If, however, it be in any way improportionate to the secondary end, or again to the principal end, as rendering its attainment difficult or less satisfactory, it is forbidden, not indeed by the first precepts of the natural law, but by the second which are derived from the first even as conclusions in speculative matters receive our assent by virtue of self-known principles: and thus the act in question is said to be against the law of nature."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16872" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Now marriage has for its principal end the begetting and rearing of children, and this end is competent to man according to his generic nature, wherefore it is common to other animals (Ethic. viii, 12), and thus it is that the "offspring" is assigned as a marriage good. But for its secondary end, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. viii, 12), it has, among men alone, the community of works that are a necessity of life, as stated above (Question [41], Article [1]). And in reference to this they owe one another "fidelity" which is one of the goods of marriage. Furthermore it has another end, as regards marriage between believers, namely the signification of Christ and the Church: and thus the "sacrament" is said to be a marriage good. Wherefore the first end corresponds to the marriage of man inasmuch as he is an animal: the second, inasmuch as he is a man; the third, inasmuch as he is a believer. Accordingly plurality of wives neither wholly destroys nor in any way hinders the first end of marriage, since one man is sufficient to get children of several wives, and to rear the children born of them. But though it does not wholly destroy the second end, it hinders it considerably for there cannot easily be peace in a family where several wives are joined to one husband, since one husband cannot suffice to satisfy the requisitions of several wives, and again because the sharing of several in one occupation is a cause of strife: thus "potters quarrel with one another" [*Aristotle, Rhet. ii, 4], and in like manner the several wives of one husband. The third end, it removes altogether, because as Christ is one, so also is the Church one. It is therefore evident from what has been said that plurality of wives is in a way against the law of nature, and in a way not against it."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16873" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson-- is see "allowed." Where do you get "commanded" or "encouraged?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">G is G, He can do what he wants.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16875" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh, depending on what one means, I guess?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://m.facebook.com/story.php...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16877" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We don't allow Divine Command Theory on TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16878" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T12:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">quodammodo ... the great escape ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1 is 1.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">quōdammodo (not comparable)...thank you TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I should add that according to St. Thomas (at least in the Supplement to the ST III), polygamy was only allowable via divine dispensation and it could only be dispensed since it was not opposed to the primary end of marriage (nor *entirely* opposed to the secondary end of natural marriage)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas is wrong. Polygamy totally hinders the first end of marriage, the begetting and raising of children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16883" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T12:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As in the case of Abraham and Hagar?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How so? I mean, if having lots of kids is one's goal (and assuming sufficient means to support everyone)...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16885" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the "rearing" part. Having lots of kids is not the goal, having them and raising them well is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16886" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about what Jesus says about it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All you have to do is look at the polygamous families in the OT to see how the "raising" part works out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">couldn't have the big turf fight, part of Gs plan, without Hagar DPO...but this all a dead end street for those on the tenure track.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[makes sure troll costume is fully zipped]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">trolling part of the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16891" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Troll Version of Matthew J. Peterson-- what did Jesus say about it?\</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T12:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">how did polygamy work out for David? Solomon?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">helped to solidify allegiances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16894" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd say when one of your sons rapes one of your daughters, setting off a blood feud that ends in one of your other sons raping some of your wives, the primary ends of marriage have been pretty thoroughly disrupted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16895" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not to mention all the killing and the dying</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16896" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Absalon oh abssalon...nice on Sam!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(50, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">politics is a tough game...and David danced before the covenant....Love the thread!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16898" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about The Law? Where did that come from, huh? It was allowed on account of your weakness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about all those modern TV shows people watch? Huh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">J was the best. rhetoric of the most sublime.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the shows are a distraction from the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">waeving through time and space....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Troll Matthew-- I already granted you "allowed." Defend "encouraged" or "commanded!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16905" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who are you Frank Morris? And is your spirit animal a falcon?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16906" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand polygamy. I understand the concubine thing, but not polygamy. One wife is enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the law is subservient to the presence, but when in the presence--people should follow the law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--how could it be allowed if it were totally contrary to the Natural Law?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my spirit is friction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was asking "or" which verb</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16911" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">One wife may be too much, in fact, Matthew</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know. But should I go through the OT law and make you defend everything in it that seems contrary to NL?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably won't be fun for anyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">everything *allowed* under it, I mean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16915" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T12:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21dRPu_v1xU<br />The Pogues The Gentleman Soldier<br />The Pogues The Gentleman Soldier http://twitter.com/#!/jimmiwiththeash<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16916" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh you underestimate me Samantha. My (supposed) Norse ancestors are descended from Loki himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about requiring rape victims to marry their attackers? Everybody for that? Seems cool from a natural law perspective, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't it the same as saying our abortion laws aren't contrary to the natural law, since they merely allow - and in fact regulate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you remember Norton's analogy of the types of people in section: Sheep (those capable w/ a lot of guidance of reaching the truth); dogs (those who wanted everyone to understand); and wolves? I think I was what he had in mind w/r/t the last category.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh gosh, me too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16921" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T12:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHCdKb5UWc<br />The Dark Knight - Some Men Just Want To Watch The World Burn<br />One, out of many, great lines from The Dark Knight....<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess my thesis is that God allowed a lot of messed up stuff in the Old Law because all society everywhere at that point was premised on the idea of women as property. And at that point in salvation history, that wasn't what he was trying to fix.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16923" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's bit unsatisfying, but it's a hell of a lot better than the kinds of things you have to say if you want to affirm everything in the Old Law as just.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16924" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(47, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T12:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">God allowed a lot of things in the old testament because without grace people are terrible. With grace people are terrible too, but without - done</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the thread is good sport too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-11T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-11T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and some want tikkun olam</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16927" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-11T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(57, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-11T13:57:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm afraid I have been sadly neglecting The Neverending Thread, but "believe me I shall soon return; my fires are banked, but still they burn."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16928" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T14:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley--more stats & graphs, plz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ditto^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16930" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T14:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some men have hobbies, others have TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16931" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T14:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to know Pater's thoughts on the Old Law and permissibility</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16932" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T14:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Max, I'm at work. It's multi-tasking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16933" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T14:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's the phony falconaventure? Who is now this thread's officially designated troll?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16934" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T14:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">there's an opening for you....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16935" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-11T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-11T14:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig I second Michael Beitia's interest in Pater Edmund's thoughts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16936" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-11T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-11T14:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Both on the Old Law and in general.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16937" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(3, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everything you say is wrong! TAC = Hitler! Gnosis!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16938" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T14:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">closer. but you have to sound normal for a while first. then pull the Linda Blair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael - I just think you know how to do this better than I do...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16940" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T14:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have years of practice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and plus, it's #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16942" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">True Peregrine-level trolling cannot be faked. We shall never see his like again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16943" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">did he disappear? Maybe if we say his name 3x in a mirror...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-11T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-11T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig What. He's...whoa, gone??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good try, though, Max.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16946" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T14:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">C'mon guys - we just have to believe in him. That's what makes him real!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is polygamy multiple wifes? Why can't it be multiple husbands, or multiple husbands and multiple wifes? How many spouses does it take to change from poligamous relationship to a commune?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh he'll be back. the facebook is just on hiatus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he deleted his Peregrine FB account? What about his Scott Whinerberg account?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's polyandry or polyamorous</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">both on hiatus. I was going to page him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16952" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T15:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's no troll like Peregrine, there's no troll like Peregrine. *clicks heels together*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or he blocked me again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T15:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably - he likes blocking TACers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">me in particular....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/scott.weinberg.16?fref=ts - you can't see this one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16958" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T15:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I graciously accepted his friend request a while back, only to have it ungraciously revoked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">happened to me before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's him, Max.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guess he's still around</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe he just blocked this thread, which is why I can't page him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16963" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T15:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can the thread survive?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">once Pater gets us going again... I have a dinner guest this evening, so I'll be out for most of today</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So are the arguments for polygamy different than polyandry or polyamorous relationships? I think there should be more equality among plural unions! Although I am not sure how a family tree would look if 15 people married each other and they all had children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-11T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-11T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2w4xiDstgM<br />Waylon Jennings - Will The Wolf The Survive<br />Waylon Jennings - Will The Wolf The Survive. Lyrics in...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Timothy Gerard" data-date="2014-09-11T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Gerard at 2014-09-11T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aloysius Wilson Possible fodder for further TNET cogitation: Cajetan, McInerny, Hochschild, and analogy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16968" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Timothy Gerard" data-date="2014-09-11T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Gerard at 2014-09-11T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aloysius Wilson Is McInerny really as wrong about Cajetan and analogy as I have heard?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Timothy Gerard" data-date="2014-09-11T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Gerard at 2014-09-11T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aloysius Wilson www.phil-inst.hu/~gyula/files/josh-thesis.pdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16970" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T16:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_16971" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T16:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks like it's tapering off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ugh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophically, is the lgbti community against plural marriage?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Thomas treats polyandry differently, fwiw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson, fwiw I had an informal course on analogy with a rather brilliant professor during undergrad, and he argued that McInerny was right. But that was long ago, and memory fades</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, nature makes it so that paternity is dubitable. Maternity, however, is not. Motherhood and fatherhood are consequently different, and therefore polygamy and polyandry are vastly different</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16977" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T16:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />1959 Michael Beitia<br />1880 Edward Langley<br />1603 Scott Weinberg<br />1346 Daniel Lendman<br />1141 Samantha Cohoe<br />1107 John Ruplinger<br />740 Matthew J. Peterson<br />705 Joel HF<br />564 Isak Benedict<br />419 Joshua Kenz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16978" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T16:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">we're number one! we're number one! (1960) and I'm not stopping until I hit my birth year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16979" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T16:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Note, I've combined "Scott Weinberg" and "Peregrine Bonaventure")</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16981" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-11T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-11T17:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Discuss: "Michael Voris, ie this is why we can't have nice things"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16982" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T17:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I agree that polyandry is more degrading to the first end of marriage (to borrow Thomas's definition) but would contend that both are equally damaging to the second.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16983" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T17:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though is also think it's clear that polygamy is very degrading to the first end as well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16984" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T17:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is Michael voris? A different troll?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16985" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-11T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-11T17:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I assumed you had already hit your birth year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16986" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-11T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-11T17:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everytime the list of top 10 TNETers is published, I breathe a sigh of relief... that there are 10 people wasting way more time than I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16987" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T17:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">not even close yet, Daniel. I assume that you're only a few years younger than me (1961)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16988" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T17:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, I'm numbering my comments (1962)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-11T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-11T17:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't believe I'm still in the top ten somehow. I've barely had any time to get involved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16990" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T18:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, you're just sexist against Matriarchal colonies of drone husbands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T18:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not sexist that I can't bear offspring. It's the nature of things (1963)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I can take some comfort in the fact that I'm not very close to my birth year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Treadmills boring. Moar tnet!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-11T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-11T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fine. Podcast it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">dinner guest on the way, sorry can't help you out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16996" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T19:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Polyandry goes against a primary precept of the natural law, whereas polygyny goes against a secondary precept of the natural law. To understand, procreation is primary and a women having multiple husbands is to use marriage for another end. Clearly she can only get pregnant once, so the primary end is weakened in the use of marriage and the secondary end is weakened. Whereas in polygyny, the primary end is not affected but the 2nd end is weakened.<br />So both are against the natural law, but the latter is permissible by God for the sake of the higher end</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16997" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T19:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The the objection that polygyny hinders the primary end, not in its basic sense. I have been thinking this, we have tried to throw in the "education of children" as the primary end, but that is not really true. That is an ad hoc change in arguments for NFP. Now the education of children does pertain to the common life of marriage, but in its basic end, in the USE of marriage, i.e. the bodoinky doink, we are speaking of procreation as such, and as such it is not hindered and can be augmented in polygyny, whereas at the very least in polyandry it cannot be augment.<br />But I do concede Mrs. Samantha Cohoe's point, that a household with multiple wives does have negative consequences to the education of children. And so we might call it indirectly harmful to the primary end, insofar as the primary end entails the education of children as something incumbent on it.<br />In anycase, polygyny is a bastardized form of marriage, unable to be raised to the state of a sacrament, because that is the image of Christ and His Church ....which makes for some polygamous analogies with certain protestants' belief of many equally "valid"churches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16998" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T19:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">McIrnerny is unfair to Cajetan on analogy, and is indeed very wrong himself. I have spoken, QED.... but in all seriousness, I will drudge up my thoughts on that. It seems to me that McIrnerny grossly misreads the whole thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_16999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah, McIrnerny first puts his foot down his mouth with the assertion that EVERY reference by Aquinas is purely logical, and does not involve the analogia entis.<br />I think the very common example of health in urine, man, food, etc already betrays that as a stretch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-11T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-11T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I studied with a student of McInerny and was told that McInerny thought McInerny was wrong but maybe he later corrected himself. That was a long time ago. [I see that he has updated his work. His earlier work was very confusing.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17001" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T19:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He also ignores that Cajetan's treatment is not his own, but can be traced back to the defensiones and to Capreolus. He talks about the "medieval" view and paints Cajetan as inventing another thing, ignoring or not putting forth any medieval evidence....when in fact for 2 centuries before Cajetan, we see the substance of his de nomina analogia in other authors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T19:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see know reason to see the health example as anything other than a merely logical analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, my inclination is to deny the analogia entis, unless by that you just mean participation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I see no need to have two terms for the same thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Scotist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, because Scotus won't allow for analogical concepts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17007" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think analogy is, properly speaking, a species of equivocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my opinion Aquinas is too liberal on the question of analogy and predication about God. Aquinas abandons the doctrine of Dionysius at a critical point (I think it's ST I.12 or I.13) and says that when we call God good we don't mean that he is "cause of Good" but that he is actually good. I think that's a mistake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Aquinas didn't have the benefit of reading Plotinus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't the notion that "Good" names God in his essence just what Damascene and Dionysius mean when they talk about superessential predication?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think so. I can't speak to Damascene, but for Dionysius, 'superessential' simply means 'above' the theophanies. For Dionysius (as Perl would say) 'to be is to be intelligible' ... so when we predicate "good" of God, we're not predicating anything of his essence (no one can do that) but we're making his ousia a reference point. But more properly we said God is "cause of Good" than that God is good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By Dionysius, we mean the guy who pretended to be St. Denis, but really was a Platonist many hundred years later....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or someone who was named Dionysius and was assimilated by the medievals to St. Denis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, even Ralph admits the doctrine of analogia entis, and that Aquinas held it. In fact such is necessary for analogical causality, e.g.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd really have to go back to his commentary (and Albert's) on the Divine names and the Celestial Hierarchy to say more about this. It's several years since I've read them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17016" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Further, S. Th. I q. 13 must presume an analogia entis, upon which predication follows.<br />We predicate good of God analogously, is not merely a logical analogy. We are saying that the being of created things, considered under the ratio of the good, reflects God in some way. The very reality we call good is analogous to God as good. See what I am saying?<br />It seems clear that is not a purely logical analogy then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-11T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-11T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Dionysius as a 'Platonist'? what does that even mean? In fact what is a 'Platonist' anyway?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if we actually disagree, Joshua. I just prefer to talk about analogy in logic and participation in metaphysics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-11T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-11T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig How do you understand the difference, Edward Langley?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17020" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T20:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^too much analytical philosophy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17021" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:19:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">On and just as a random aside.... the distinction of nun and sister were abolished in 1983, and before that followed the distinction of order from congregation. A sister took simple vows, nuns took solemn....cloister has nothing to do with it.<br />Sorry, the false distinction was raised like 10,000 comments ago and I forgot to correct it then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analogy is a doctrine about the use of terms. Participation is a doctrine about formal causality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17023" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, for whatever it's worth, Aquinas never uses the phrase "analogia entis".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your distinction is still your own. Participation is also misleading, and the favorite buzzord of people like Fabro...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17026" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T20:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Thomastic Gangfight" is my new hiphop group</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, if the question is the priopriety of the phrase "analogia entis", you can't simply claim that Aquinas would sign off on such a phrase.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure I can.He would. It is part of the Thomistic tradition. Only people lke Fabro have conniptions over it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as I can tell, Thomas is careful to only to use analogy to refer to what was also called "equivocatio a consilio"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, analogia entis was the term invented by Thomists for Thomas's doctrine on naming God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why reinvent the wheel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17032" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That only proves my point, as far as I can tell: it's primarily a doctrine about naming, not about the being of the things named.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is a dispute over what the doctrine is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I think I gave a good reason why every Thomist from Capreolus to the haughty 20th century with its secret gnosis took it as an analogy of being</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you mean by "analogy of being"? Do mean that creatures are created according to a divine exemplar?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And so creaturely perfection derives from divine perfections?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17037" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T20:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To the second it is to be said that the Creator and creation are reduced unto one, not by a community of univocation but of analogy. Moreover such a community is able to be in two-ways. Either from this that some things participate something one according to before and after, just as potency and act [participate] the account of being, and similarly substance and accident; or from this that one receives existence and the account from the other, and such is the analogy of creation to the Creator: for creation does not have existence except according as it descends from the first Being: whence neither is it named a being except in as much as it imitates the first Being; and similarly is it concerning wisdom and all other things which are said of creation. (Sup. Sent lib 1 q. 1 a. 2 ad 2)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T20:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since marriage is (legally) no longer about children poly-marriages are the next frontier for legalization. The result of which may be seen in the insurance agency requiring a "married" status for adult dependents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please: let's stop reading Fabro already. I mean, I was fascinated in my senior year but I got over it. Read Doolan. Read Wippel. And re: Dionysius, if you really want to understand him, read Perl.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17040" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-11T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-11T20:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig ^ On the latter, also Dillon/Wear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-11T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-11T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Kenz, just curious, how do you understand Dionysius as a 'Platonist'?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Dominic Bolin" data-date="2014-09-11T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominic Bolin at 2014-09-11T20:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: In Sent I. 19: "aliquid dicitur secundum analogiam tripliciter: vel secundum intentionem tantum, et non secundum esse ... Vel secundum esse et non secundum intentionem ... Vel secundum intentionem et secundum esse."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17043" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Owen White" data-date="2014-09-11T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen White at 2014-09-11T20:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What upsets me most about this thread is that in 17,264 comments there has not been a single bawdy limerick. What the hell did they teach you people at TAC?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17044" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There once was a man from Nantucket ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17045" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-11T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-11T20:54:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the garden of Eden lay Adam<br />Quite merrily boning his madam<br />For he knew in his mirth<br />That upon the whole earth<br />There were only two balls, and he had 'em.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17046" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-11T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-11T20:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">*bows*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17047" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Owen White" data-date="2014-09-11T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen White at 2014-09-11T20:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you good sir, thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17048" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-11T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-11T20:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My pleasure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Peregine falcon were still here he would get his knickers in a twist about that one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17050" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-11T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-11T21:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He can go boil his head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17051" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Platonists=Canadians</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-11T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-11T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Woah. Let's take it easy there, Catherine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T21:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you insulting Canadians or Platonists?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17054" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-11T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-11T21:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Woah. Let's take it easy there, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-11T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-11T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take it Sean Robertson is a Canadian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17056" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-11T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-11T21:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Woah. Let's take it eas- No wait, that's right. I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Take a poll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17058" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you'll find many, many Canadians with Platonist sympathies and vice versa.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17059" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-11T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-11T21:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Recent archaeological data suggests St. Thomas was actually Canadian. Scotus, meanwhile, was apparently from California.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />578 Jehoshaphat Escalante<br />352 Catherine Ryland<br />349 Jeffrey Bond<br />345 John Boyer<br />318 Daniel P. O'Connell<br />270 Jeff Neill<br />248 Nina Rachele<br />224 Pater Edmund<br />220 Megan Baird<br />179 Adrw Lng</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-11T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-11T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can that be right? I'm pleased if so but I haven't commented much in the last two days</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17062" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-11T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-11T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It pleases me that my name doesn't appear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17063" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(That was 11-20)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">166 Jody Haaf Garneau<br />163 Lauren Ogrodnick<br />151 Tim Cantu<br />150 Frank Morris<br />146 Sam Rocha<br />136 Marie Pitt-Payne<br />106 Katie Duda<br />101 Marina Shea<br />81 Aaron Gigliotti<br />80 Tom Sundaram</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />71 Bekah Sims Andrews<br />68 Philip D. Knuffke<br />56 Sean Robertson<br />56 Megan Caughron<br />54 Max Summe<br />50 Aaron Dunkel<br />49 John Kunz<br />45 Wendy Irene<br />40 Jason Van Boom<br />39 Andrew Whaley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-11T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-11T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Canadians can also be formidable trolls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-11T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-11T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've sure dropped... But I guess that's what happens when I have reading I have to do for classes while nursing instead of Facebook ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-11T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-11T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm not a Platonist...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-11T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-11T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you Canadian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It isn't right Jehoshaphat Escalante. You have more than #10 on the earlier posted list....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17071" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is, in 1-10 I hadn't taken in account that Jehoshaphat Escalante had changed his Facebook name recently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17072" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, really, Joshua Kenz should be in 11-20</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17073" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-11T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-11T22:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I am Canadian... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17074" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T22:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Apology was definitely a Canadian work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-11T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-11T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe growing up in proximity to Ontario (on the Detroit side) influenced me to be a Platonist ... although I'm not as comfortable with that label these days. More of a Cusan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Sorry)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17078" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-11T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-11T22:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Canadians are Platonists, does this mean that De Koninck was a crypto-Platonist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17079" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-11T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-11T22:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">crypto-Platano-proto-Aristotelian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17080" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T22:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, I think I just like giving you a hard time. I have no problem calling it participation, as long as one understand that participation as according to analogy! That is, we do not participate univocally but by analogy in the good, being, etc <br />See what I did there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see what you did, but I'm not sure I'd phrase it that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I grant that the X in itself and participated X aren't named X univocally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17083" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-11T22:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dear Isak, you made my evening so much better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But we can participate either univocally or by analogy. And Aquinas is explicit on this. Indeed he faults Plato for reducing all participation to univocal participation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you have a citation? I recall texts like that, but I forget the context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is right, you weren't in the class on the de hebdomadibus<br />Lectio 2 and 3. Essentially there are 3 modes of participation. Species participates genus (this is a weak way, and in other places he prefers not to call it participation), 2. matter participates form, accidents substance, etc. The third way, via causality, can be either univocal or analogical. It is analogical in creature to creator, univocal as fire causes heat. Or as medicine causes health!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see texts talking about participation according to before and after.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The upshot is that Aquinas sees Platonic participation as univocal. The analogia entis can be called participation but one must clarify that it is not according to the manner Aquinas ascribes to Plato</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So thomists hold that created things are good by analogy not by actually participating in God's goodness, but a "platonist" would say participation in God's goodness is direct?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, they actually participate, according to analogy. Analogy doesn't mean fictitious or only potentially</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the difficulty I have, though: if there is something real common by which the name applies analogously, then it would just seem to be univocation; otherwise, if there is no community, wouldn't it just be pure equivocation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually need to think out the last question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17093" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-11T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-11T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just like to think of participation in terms of efficient causality, which I think is third sense of De heb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, doesn't it have to involve formal causality as well? (not intrinsic form, but form in the sense of exemplar).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Community according to participation! To say that is not "actual" participation is to beg the question about whether participation can be analogous.<br />The goodness, e.g., in the man really is analogous to the goodness of God (not just the name, the goodness itself). If we possessed God Himself as our goodness, would that be being good by essence, rather than participation? But we say the goodness in us is like to the goodness of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-11T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-11T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-11T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-11T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the efficient says why there's a connection present in first place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the efficiency isn't why we call it "participation".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So since goodness is only analogous, man does not "really" participate in God's goodness. Right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, he really really does, according to analogy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analogy does not mean metaphor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Analogies are not real things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Analogies are dumb like a bag of hammers or a box of rocks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't all that mean in this case is something like man's goodness : man as God's goodness : God ?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The being which is analogous is real</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">created goodness: Divine Good:: as creature: God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmmm sounds accidental</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T23:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That only justifies a transference of the name.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17109" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-11T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-11T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, possibly, of the concept: but I'm still not sure whether an analogous name corresponds to a single concept or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said accidental due to word choice, but not real</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Mr. Neill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not accidental</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ratios are nice but the words are different</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That I am created by God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure it is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not sure if you are being serious...are you trolling?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is your goodness his?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you trolling?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or only good by analogy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think you know what that word means</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm challenging your topic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17122" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you are showing no familiarity with the topic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-11T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-11T23:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry about this, but I think it more fruitful to engage Edward Langley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because I'm not quoting text?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-11T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-11T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't mean to interrupt your bromance. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Asking questions is relevant here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The transference of the name is justified because the corresponding concept is analogous to the reality which is God? What I mean is that not even the concept of divine goodness signifies univocally divine goodness<br />Aquinas certainly speaks of a community here, of analogy. According to before and after is the 2nd sense of participation used in the de hebdomadibus. But the 3rd mode is according to efficient cause, as one being receives existence from another.<br />Sup. Sent lib 1 q. 1 a. 2 ad 2)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you prefer to engage one on one, without allowing other input, might I suggest pm? It' super cool!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Download the app!!!! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17130" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only mean that it is more fruitful to discuss one topic at one time. Are we asking about Aquinas' doctrine of analogy, and its relation to being, or are we going to analogy 101 and trying to cover the very basic rudiments? Both can be fruitful, but it is confusing at the same time and therefore, personally, I am just saying I will be answering Langley on this topic...especially since half of the time he responds I am answering Jeff and vice versa, confusing as heck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In that sense nothing participates in God's goodness univocally, except Himself. All participation is by analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And of course answering anyone else on the same topic. Feel free to have a parallel conversation on the "challenge" to the very idea of analogy brought by Jeff. Just two similar, but divergent topics is confusing for me to participate in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not all participation is in God. Accident participates substance. This has already been covered aptly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why you should read the cited texts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It very well may be what Thomas said, I'm not sure I agree with it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So accidents don participate their substance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And we don't call medicine healthy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No we don't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Medicine is not healthy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, now I know you are a troll. Consider this my last post direct at you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a cause of effects not all effects are healthy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOT all medicine is healthy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17143" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-09-12T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-09-12T00:14:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">SECUNDUUUUM QUIDDDDDDD<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Kevin Gallagher" data-date="2014-09-12T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Kevin Gallagher at 2014-09-12T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry i will see myself out now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are young and full of yourself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17146" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not a troll. Not in the least</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come on. Put your big boy pants on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17148" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="JL Liedl" data-date="2014-09-12T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">JL Liedl at 2014-09-12T00:16:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">This status has been at the top of my news feed for two weeks straight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh huh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17150" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is sign of trolling when someone tries to argue over trivialities. It is stupid as the objection against saying man is a rational animal, that some men are irrational. Yes medicine, meaning drugs, can be good or bad. But we do say that this medicine/food is healthy, as a cause of health, or that this complexion or urine is healthy as a sign of health. To object that some medicine is not healthy is an idiotic objection that mises the point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How old are you Joshua?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17152" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-12T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-12T00:19:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">And this just went downhill again... This is worse than freshmen Theology...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been blocked. Haha. I guess he is Not willing to communicate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17154" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Mrs. Lauren Ogrodnick, I heard they ban baby walkers in Canada</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh, honestly, if you disagree with others, why do you block them? This should be an open discussion. That's how conversions happen, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As long as we are doing non serious discussion, would that make this depiction of the holy family encourage to break the law? http://upload.wikimedia.org/.../Jesus_in_a_baby_walker...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Deflect much? Come on! Let's figure this out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the point, Jeff, is that we call the medicine that is healthy, healthy because it causes health.<br />But, as far as I can see, there are three levels of community:<br />1) community according to names<br />2) possibly community according to concepts<br />3) possibly community in reality<br />Without (2) or (3), (1) seems to be pure equivocation: like "bat", the mammal and "bat", the stick one hits a baseball with.<br />(2) is obvious in the case of a univocal name: then there is one name and one concept and these together pick out one kind of thing.<br />It's less obvious to me how to parse (2) in analogy: some people (Henry of Ghent for one) say that analogous concepts are concepts that appear to be one but, upon consideration, turn out to be two. As far as I can tell, one interpretation of Aquinas is that there is one concept which, through consideration, is extended to take on additional meanings in a certain order.<br />I'm not sure at all how to understand (3): i.e. how to understand real community of kind existing outside the mind. The triplex consideratio in De Ente makes it seem like the universal/common nature is only something in the mind and that everything outside the mind is individual. But, perhaps Aquinas's view is closer to Scotus's and there is a real community secundum rem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17159" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-12T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(54, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-12T00:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">figure something out? this is TNET... the dark abode of unresolved questions and half-finished thoughts... where your friendliest neighbour could become the troll of your worst nightmares... *cue spooky music*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as analogy goes, though, it seems to avoid (3), although perhaps Dominic Bolin's text suggests something else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://socraticum.com is where those questions should move to be discussed to a resolution <br />Socraticum.com<br />Discussion group for TACers and friends<br />SOCRATICUM.COM<br />September 12 at 12:26am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Liz Neill All hail Joshua Kenz! He reigns supreme! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Just a little bit of periodic advertising).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, I am agreed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@nina. True that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17165" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you make of analogous concepts, Joshua? Scotus is pretty critical of them in the Lectura (I d.3 p.1 q.1-2) but he seems to be focused on Henry of Ghent's position without considering alternative views.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T00:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goodness would seem to be In the third sense, since it is not in just the mind; however it does not seem to be individual. I have not read scotus yet, but he seems like something I would be interested in</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If people Unfriend people, it's cowardly. Just saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff you weren't blocked. But I may block Liz soon enough for my own sanity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley, I would have to look at the texts. What exactly is meant, in that context, by analogous concept? Or maybe that is dangerous, seeing as SCotus is not at all clear about analogy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17170" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It looks to me like it means a concept that initially appears to the intellect to be one concept but which, upon consideration, is discovered to be two</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But just so similar as to be conflated? Would that be like "children call all men fathers, then they learn to divide", namely distinguish the concept of man from father?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17172" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The example we went over in class was "ens". For Henry of Ghent, to say that the concept "ens" is analogous is to say that, to ordinary people, it is taken as one concept. When philosophers reflect on that concept, they realize that there actually were two concepts: ens negative indeterminatum and ens privative indeterminatum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(the former is such that it cannot receive any further determination while the latter is such that it is able to receive any determination).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So pure act and pure potency, in Thomistic terms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's more like esse divinum et esse commune: I'm not sure if the latter is the same as "pure potency".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, so we are considering ens through abstraction, namely from any way of being, and not as principles of things...so abstraction in the ...3rd sense? Oh I forget the numbering, the sort of abstraction by which we say that the genus "animal" is not rational</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff Neil is the new troll!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The context is a question about whether we know God through a concept univocal to him and creatures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T00:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do keep in mind I have been awake sins 9 am....Sept 10th. Brain is not functioning as sharply as usual<br />And I am glad another nerd makes homonym typos.....no and know especially</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FB messenger, for reals...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T00:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kidding</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17183" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-12T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-12T01:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, baby walkers are banned in Canada... I guess too many babies were throwing themselves down stairs or something... But she's going to take her first steps in Virginia probably and I guess US babies are not as inclined to suicide by means of a walker and a set of stairs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">coming from?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moment of silence for those who lost their lives. I will nerver forget an God bless their families.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So we know that our concept of God or any attribute of Him, is not a proper species, save in the Beatific vision. So the question is, do we have one concept, which is referred analogously to God, or do we have two concepts, one for created goodness and another for God, with that concept being the same but including say containing the denial of imperfection, etc?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because we cannot have a concept that is not founded on created reality in some way...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T01:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that might be an important distinction but for Henry of Ghent, God is the primo cognitum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T01:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@josh true I actually agree </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17191" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T01:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just wondering how united in the mind the concepts corresponding to spoken words are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17192" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T01:16:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Play nice, children, or I'll beat you all up and then shank your goldfish</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T01:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh, please don't write like Aristotle..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle always seems to write clearly, to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T01:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@isak !! Fish sticks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T01:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you like fish sticks?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17197" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T01:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both Josh and Ed are pretty solid thinkers by the way guys. Let's be nice and not throw nasty accusations about youth around. Do what I do and call people bastards like a gentleman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-09-12T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-09-12T02:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thread is back!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17199" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jason Van Boom" data-date="2014-09-12T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jason Van Boom at 2014-09-12T02:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv1PF0tAE1s<br />General Mcarthur: "People of the Philippines, I have returned"<br />TO THE PEOPLE OF THE PHILIPPINES: I have...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17200" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-12T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-12T02:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You TAC mom types -- do you know we actually have a discussion list for TAC moms. It jumps around much like TNET but we have the sense to separate discussions by topic. We use google groups as our format now (moved from a fb group). Message me to figure out how to get in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17201" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T02:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T02:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">For all questions on analogy from 100's of comments ago, Joshua Kenz and Edward Langley:<br />http://www.amazon.com/.../dp/1449977677/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3...<br />Understanding St. Thomas on Analogy<br />This book is a reprint of the dissertation that won the 2009 Prize of the Pontifical Academies. The analogy of names...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-12T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-12T03:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greg Rocca is good on analogy as well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T08:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T08:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know someone made recordings of at least a good portion of Nieto's 2005/2006 weekly lecturs on analogy. Does anyone have a copy of them? Adrw Lng Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund Caleb Cohoe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T09:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sadly, no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17205" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T09:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's wrong with all you people?? I'm gone for ONE night, and nobody bothers to contradict Mr. Kenz's outrageous assertion that the primary end of marriage is the begetting and NOT the rearing of children? Do I have to do everything around here??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So let me get this straight: Health is said primarily of the body, and secondarily of the effects of health (urine etc) and causes of health (medicine or food). This example is to teach us about God's goodness, right? the only sticking point is the understanding of analogy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17207" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T09:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I'm not sure either is correctly identified as the primary end. <br />It seems to me (and I may be waaaaay off base here) that marriage as sacrament exists to give grace. Primarily, then, marriage would exist to get one to heaven, through the production/raising of offspring</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, maybe that would be the primary supernatural end, and the begetting and rearing of children would be the primary natural one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17209" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz's argument would mean that a family with 12 kids who abandon them all is fulfilling the primary end of marriage as well as another family with 12 or fewer kids who raise them well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, St. Thomas says the primary end is the begetting and rearing of children, so what's the deal Mr. Kenz? Do you know better than St. Thomas?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Y'all need to read some more Aristotle. The end of the oak tree is to produce another oak tree, not just an acorn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, Samantha, I missed that. <br />No, it is quite clear that when one begets children there is an obligation, likewise to educate them. This is always part of the account of the primary end of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17213" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children unto adulthood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17214" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd be surprised if Joshua finally disagrees. Apparently he was quite sleep deprived.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think your "reduxio" argument is valid and true, Samantha Cohoe. Also, you are right that St. Thomas mentions procreation and education together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17216" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, his argument would imply that it's perfectly fine for a woman whose husband is sterile to have another husband, since it's all about getting pregnant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have time to look up the references now, but they are there for anyone doesn't believe me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Daniel, I don't understand how you're still ahead of me in the standings. You're ever here anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a streak there for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, rather, that it isn't against the primary end of marriage for a woman to have another husband if her first one fails to beget children on her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17222" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am going to have to be more attentive to my TNET obligations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I suppose that is correct.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17224" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">if the begetting of children is the *only* primary end, there would be situations in which polyandry wouldn't be against the primary end of marriage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really just need to pass up Weinberg so I can hold a comfortable third place for awhile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't mind you pass me up, though, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17227" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously. TNET was flagging there until the scintillating issue of analogy revived it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17228" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Today in Austria we celebrate the victory over the Turks at the battle of Vienna.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Before the battle the Turks were In Trumau, the town I live in. All the people gathered in prayer in the church, and the damnable infidels came and burned the church to the ground with the people inside.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austrians still don't like Turks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually meant to say something about this earlier, but got distracted. Here's a quote in Latin (I had to type it out by hand since I don't know of an online latin edition of the Supplement to the III part): "Matrimonium ergo habet pro fine principali prolis procreationem et educationem: qui quidem finis competit homini secundum naturam sui generis: unde et aliis animalibus est communis.” ST IIIa Supplement Q 65 Art 1</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why their immigration laws are so tough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^You're a boss, Joel HF.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I don't really know what that means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I picked up while teaching high school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really do need to go now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I will be back and better than ever. \</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I promise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To play devil's advocate, how does one translate "educationem" here? This end is one which we hold generically, and thus it is common to animals (perhaps Mammals would have been better, since plenty of animals do nothing to rear their young in any sense).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17240" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it is in common with animals, how is it that we take "educationem"? Clearly not any strong sense of "educate," perhaps, "rear" would be better. And if that is the case, and this end is in common with (some) other animals, how much is expected there? I.e. would polygamy still be contrary to this primary end?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17241" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To proceed slightly less trollishly, the education bit is often taken as an argument against big families period. I remember reading a NYT article with some lady Episcopalian "bishop" (that would be in quotation marks regardless of her sex), and she claimed that the reason Episcopalians had so few children was that they focused on quality not quantity. I do wonder if a slightly less elevated standard ought to be held ("we have 2 kids, because we can only afford to send 2 through Princeton and then to Grad school").</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17242" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that polygamy violates the primary end. <br />I think that educate could be rendered as rear. I think the idea, generally speaking, is that one's offspring must be able to reasonably attain the ends of the said species. Animals with higher/more complex ends, tend to need more time with parents in order to do this. <br />Humans, however, have by nature the ability to reason and know their end. Consequently, 'education' is used properly for humans in distinction from other animals, since humans must be taught about their end and how best to pursue it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17243" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^This is, at least, how I always thought about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't like Daniel's last comment, because of the WRONG first paragraph, but the latter paragraph is what I was going to say</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe, in the first paragraph I should have added the qualifier 'evidently' so I might emmend it to say:<br />I don't think that polygamy EVIDENTLY violates the primary end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17246" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas has a text where he talks about how, had it not been revealed, it is highly unlikely that mankind would have been able to see the necessity of monogamy as a tenet of natural law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17247" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He does, however, hold that it is according to natural law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about the arguments about the damage polygamy does to the rearing of children?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Monogamy, that is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17250" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The secondary end--i.e. the one proper to man as man, and not just as animal--is “communicationem operum quae sunt necessaria in vita” (See Aristotle NE VIII 12). Here "necessaria in vita" seems to be not just bodily necessities (though it includes that) but also the beginnings of that which man ultimately lives in community for--i.e. family goods which ultimately lead to political goods.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's highly unlikely that *men* would have been willing to see the necessity of monogamy as a tenet of natural law</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17252" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It'd be pretty obvious to women</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel is correct. Aquinas thinks that because of the way in which custom obscures things that aren't the first precepts of natrual law (and with our greater knowledge of anthropology, perhaps we could say, even the first precepts occasionally!), that Man is basically highly likely to err on such points.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I don't know the arguments that polygamy damages children. My thought would be that such concerns are proper to our times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is because women are more ordered to the second end of marriage: i.e. fidelity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17256" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nonsense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That being said, of all the patriarchs, only Isaac had only one wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17258" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Begins fiddling while TNET burns!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He had fewer problems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What? Do you not recall the Old Testament?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17261" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But his children were still pretty messed up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, I need to type faster, obviously</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The damage polygamy does to children is pretty thoroughly documented in the Old Testament. it's not a modern concern</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We had this whole conversation yesterday.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Abraham and Jacob had multiple wives and it seems pretty clear that this caused them problems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Sorry, I missed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isaac, apparently turned out okay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though, obviously Ishmael had problems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17269" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ishmael would have to have had serious Daddy issues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17270" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and it is opposed to the secondary end, that which is proper to man qua man. I still don't see that it is opposed to "rearing" generically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No question that polygamy violates the secondary end of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think that damage that occurs to children in the process of raising them is incidental to the "rearing of children?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T10:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand how children are the primary end, when I thought the primary end of all sacraments were the sanctification of the person.<br />Isn't that the primary end of all sacraments qua sacraments?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I don't think the damage done to women by polygamy should be considered incidental to the primary end of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps one could conclude that polygamy harms the full success of the first end of marriage, but does not contradict the first end? What do you think of that, Samantha Cohoe?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hate it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's how I feel about it, let me consider what I think about it for a minute</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The goods of marriage (according to St. Thomas following Peter Lombard) are ""faith, offspring, and sacrament."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I think that is true about Sacraments in general, but this does not distinguish the sacraments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Each Sacrament has a proper end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, we must remember to distinguish between the goods of marriage and the ends of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17283" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The third end of marriage (for marriage between believers) (per STA) is "the signification of Christ and the Church." Though this is only a tertiary end, and is not common even to all men, for those with a sacramental marriage it is the most important, imo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm confused about Thomas's numbering of the ends of marriage and how that relates to the relative importance of those ends</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I was gonna link them up, but I don't type nearly fast enough here. But it was sloppy to just post that without doing the linkage in that post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church today in her documents tends to not speak of marriage as an institution but as a "community of life." Likewise, the church like to speak of the goods of marriage and not the ends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Thomas, (and I think this is true) the only difference between natural marriage and sacramental marriage is that in the later the couple are baptized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think (and please remember that I'm the furthest thing from an authority) that they simply go from most common to most specific. The most important end has got to be the third (for those for whom that end obtains), as far as I can see. And this speaks to Michael Beitia's point as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's misleading, then, to say that polygamy is only against natural law "secondarily"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17290" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is flat out wrong to say that marriage is against natural law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I edited</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Parapraxis!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_17294" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, I am pro-marriage both consciously and sub-consciously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it dismissive to wave a hand and say that the proper end of any sacrament differs from the specific end of *that* sacrament</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">@Daniel Lendman--that difference gives them a 3rd end as well, to be a sign of Christ and his church, and thus to strengthen each other in faith, etc. It is from the third end that the first and third good proceed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17297" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that polygamy is against natural law, simply speaking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17298" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sacraments, in general, are for the sake of sanctification.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17299" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Each sacrament has a particular means by which that is accomplished..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, and thus the other ends are ordered toward that.<br />Baptism removes original sin - for the sake of sanctification, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17302" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T10:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but STA thinks that polygamy for non-believers could be allowed through a special dispensation from God (and otherwise it couldn't be, though many gentile nations would fall into error), but could never be allowed for sacramental marriages.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just mis-typed big time and so I deleted a comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't respond to the clearly stupid thing I wrote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I meant to write, is that marriage as an institution has ends that are inherent to it. The first of these ends is procreation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do we have to say that God "allowed" polygamy in any special way, other than the way many evils are allowed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christ, by raising marriage to a sacrament, did not change nature essentially. He just made the pursuit of those ends of marriage meritorious of efficacious grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17308" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of piety, we should be hesitant to say that the Old Testament saints sinned in polygamy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aaccch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know, I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Abraham is clearly portrayed as sinning when he takes Hagar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I see why one would read it that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17314" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we are obliged to see the Patriarchs as heroes of faith, not as heroes of virtue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17315" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think many (if not all) the fathers avoided such interpretations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, sure. I'm aware that they did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They were wrong, weren't they?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine says some of the dumbest things ever said about sex on the topic of the patriarchs and their wives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17319" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T10:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I am really scared to go against nigh universal patristic authority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously, David only used his hundreds of wives for procreation?Seriously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bathsheba was the only time he sinned in lust?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17322" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17324" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia--yes, qua sacrament (as far as I can tell), the mutual strengthening of faith and the marriage as "signification of Christ and the Church" are what is most important. Unlike the other sacraments, however, there is "natural marriage" as well, and sacramental marriage also shares the natural ends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said, I understand the force of your argument but I am prevented from assenting because of the fathers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17326" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF that is along the lines of what I was trying to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine was messed up by the Manichees on this. They used the immorality of the Patriarchs as an argument against the catholic faith, so he felt obliged to defend them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17328" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Or he was saintly, wise, and correct.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it is just hard for us to understand because of the intellectual and cultural customs of our day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll give you the saintly and wise parts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry? It's hard to understand why a man would want several hundred wives and concubines?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't it at least possible that he saw things more clearly that we do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17334" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T11:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think, again, that the results of polygamy speak for themselves (David, Solomon)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On a lot of things. This just flies in the face of everything that is obvious about human nature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He wanted so many wives so that he could help bring forth the Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17337" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He only needed Bathsheba to bring forth the Christ. And that's the one situation that Augustine concedes was sinful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17338" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I think you are right that the Old Testament shows that polygamy is a bad idea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17339" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T11:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">but it worked out pretty badly, plus the sin of David is Bathsheba</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but he didn't know that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm no scripture expert, but I don't think we have reason to think that David had "hundreds" of wives do we? Solomon, who we are explicitly told had hundreds of wives, clearly sinned in taking so many--though lust doesn't seem to have been the prime motivation there, or even the primary sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17342" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're saying he needed to make sure God could bring about his promises by making every attractive woman in Israel and the surrounding nations his wife or concubine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">after killing their husbands, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, you're right, not hundreds for David. more like dozens. The point still stands</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17345" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">As for Abraham and Hagar, Abraham's fault there--though really, Sarah's, right?--doesn't seem to be lust but lack of faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, on both their parts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17347" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">FB is lagging for me, so I'm replying to posts WAY up thread, just fyi, y'all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17348" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, to Samantha's point about why man would take so many wives--I think that in a society like Solomon's it is more about pride and ostentation ("look how powerful I am") than it is directly about lust. Not that lust isn't involved as well, but it seems more like signaling to other nations / his own subjects how rich and wealthy he was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17349" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a huge part of it, it's true. The point is that Augustine didn't want to think of the Patriarchs as sexual sinners, so he came up with this explanation about "use" of their many wives to explain it. It leads him to make some excuses for polygamy that are false. It also misses the point of a lot of those stories, esp. the Abraham and Hagar one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But should we actually feel the need to assert that the patriarchs didn't sin sexually? It would be astonishing if they didn't, right? Basically a miracle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17351" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I think Augustine's reading of the patriarchs is motivated by his desire to see the patriarchs as good, and that the text of the OT doesn't always bear this up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17352" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That said, for men back then, children, LOTS of children, would be hugely important. Which wouldn't make it right to take a concubine b/c your wife was barren, but is slightly different that plain lust (though lust can be a compenent as well). In our society, men are so desirous of avoiding kids that this is sometimes easy to forget.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T11:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure. Also,the sin of lust is not really discussed the in OT. It's only coveting another man's wife that is wrong, and that's because of the sin against the other man, not the lust per se.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17354" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-12T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-12T11:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I keep getting tagged in TNET and I can't find the post because immensity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17355" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T11:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw Lng--I tagged you, trying to see if any one had the audio recordings of Nieto's lectures on analogy our senior year. I think the person who made them may be a monk now...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17356" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-12T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-12T11:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hi Joel, I don't think I have them, I'm afraid. I will root around a little anyway and see if I find anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17357" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-12T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-12T11:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig Btw, 133,873 left for us... http://recordsetter.com/.../comment-thread-facebook.../12596<br />Longest Comment Thread On A Facebook Wall Post<br />DawarKazi set this world record with RecordSetter, a...<br />RECORDSETTER.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17358" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-12T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-12T11:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ More distant and more solemn<br />Than a fading star.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, just getting caught up on my morning reading. To the point made right after I went to sleep on dialog with Kenz. <br />No matter how "good a thinker" a person may be, it does not give them a pass to be immature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T11:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would be easier to think that a patriarch sinned in lust for taking multiple wives and still reaching sainthood or patriarch status than to assume all actions of a patriarch were not sinful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T11:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although charity in assuming the best possible answer is nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you remove sacramental marriage from the consideration than nearly any configuration for marriage could meet the end of rearing/educating children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Since children do not only occur in marriage, although it is more ordered to production of children)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T11:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm curious, but the point still stands, that if the end of a sacrament insofar as it is a sacrament, and the "primary end" of procreation is ordered toward the final end. <br />The difference, it seems to me, between natural marriage and sacramental marriage is the grace one receives in that association so that it may be done well vis a vis salvation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is my understanding People who are unable to have children are allowed sacramental marriage since they would be "open to children" even though it may not be physically possible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T12:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">perhaps that's because the end of marriage is sanctification, not offspring, insofar as it is a sacramental marriage. (even if the proper end of offspring would be thwarted in this case, and the marriage would, according to the natural end, be lacking)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup. <br />So in one question would be in the "rearing and education" what does this mean; is it time based, direct action by parent or is indirect rearing and education sufficient?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17368" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T12:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I think marriage is unique among the sacraments because it is something prior to being part of the order of grace. The reason for making it a Sacrament seems less directly aimed at sanctification and more at making it easier for the couple to remain faithful (although, obviously, the latter is ordered to the former in some sense).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17369" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T12:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, I think there are certain physical impediments which are also impediments to marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17371" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T12:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the "rearing and education" meanst that the family exists to bring children to self-sufficiency both according to bodily and soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17372" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-12T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-12T12:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Impotence may nullify a marriage or does it nullify all marriages ipso facto? Asking for a friend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17373" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T12:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only thing different between sacramental marriage and natural marriage is baptism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17374" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-12T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-12T12:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, Daniel. And a natural marriage can be licit with a dispensation!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17375" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-12T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-12T12:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BORING</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17376" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-12T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-12T12:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Totally agree Jehoshaphat Escalante. Let's talk about mucus viscosity or something with a little more action!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17377" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T12:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the name change Jehoshaphat Escalante.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-12T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-12T13:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shit Catholics say: "Honey why are you handing me a thermometer?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We could talk about the likely event of the Dodgers going to the World Series.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and losing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We still haven't touched on Agrarianism, vaccinations, the American founding, just to use my irenic list of topics from way up above.<br />Perhaps the last topic would be unhospitable, seeing as this is Peterson's wall and all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17382" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The American founding? Or whether destruction of the rule of law is ever licit?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or more generally: Whether one should ever follow Masons?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17384" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How did I phrase it waaaay up above? "Why the founding is based on evil enlightenment principles, or Guys, we totally used to sing songs that could be understood in some way as not contrary to the common good" --this is why Norton thought I was a wolf: I love to watch ship-wrecks from the shore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">distinguish between the "justness" of the American Revolution and the "unjustness" of the Civil War</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17386" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman--yes, perhaps it is time to discuss the Masons. I hear they are everywhere and control everything. Masons ran Vatican II!!!1!!!1!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17387" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was the Bavarian Illuminati</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17388" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vatican II may actually be too controversial even for me. I may be a wolf, but I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd--to paraphrase a silly movie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17389" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T13:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing to be said about vaccination except everybody get your damn vaccinations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17390" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You'd think that, Samantha, but this is the internet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone knows vaccinations cause autism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, vaguely crunch Catholic types especially, tend to get real squishy on the subject.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17393" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T13:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And leprosy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They were created by the Masons to impurify our precious bodily fluids.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17395" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY<br />Dr. Strangelove - Precious Bodily Fluids<br />Mandrake and Ripper<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17396" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T13:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vaccines cause gluten sensitivity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17397" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which explains why wheat was eaten just fine for so many years, and then people started having problems with it </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17398" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:43:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">gluten sensitivity is BS.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17399" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">tinfoil hats - a requirement for attending TAC or optional?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17400" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.theatlantic.com/.../tin-foil-hats.../262998/<br />Tin Foil Hats Actually Make it Easier for the Government to Track Your Thoughts<br />Or so says "physics."<br />THEATLANTIC.COM|BY MATT SONIAK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17401" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">no.... as part of dress code. Uncovered heads are immodest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-12T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-12T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Posting the "Related" links suggested by the Book of Faces</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-12T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-12T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M<br />Kool & The Gang - Celebration<br />Music video by Kool & The Gang performing Celebration. (C) 1980 The Island Def Jam Music Group<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-12T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-12T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.mcsweeneys.net/.../the-canon-of-philosophy...<br />List: The Canon of Philosophy Student Karaoke Songs.<br />“Total Eclipse of Descartes” “Don’t You (Foucault About...<br />MCSWEENEYS.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17405" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-12T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-12T13:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9_lfjQopU<br />So Long Farewell<br />"So Long Farewell" from the 1965 film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T13:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Booty, I already posted the Karaoke. get with the TNET times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-12T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-12T13:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't know how Kool & the Gang relates, but Sound of Music makes sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17408" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Joshua and I were discussing the abomination that is musicals, and I think Daniel posted a Kool and the Gang video many hundreds (thousands?) of comments ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17409" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(61, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T14:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Facebook is very confused by TNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17410" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET includes all of facebook - and more!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17411" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:06:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://phys.org/news/2011-09-cosmic-thread-revealed.html<br />Cosmic thread that binds us revealed<br />(PhysOrg.com) -- Astronomers at The Australian National University have found evidence for the textile that forms...<br />PHYS.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T14:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is TNET's relationship to God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If all things are expressions of the Creator, what kind of an expression is TNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">if any one consider moi a troll, frig em.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"If all things are expressions of the Creator, what kind of an expression is TNET?" metaphysical at best, Isak.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">“A consequence of the Big Bang and the dominance of dark matter is that ordinary matter is driven, like foam on the crest of a wave, into vast interconnected sheets and filaments stretched over enormous cosmic voids – much like the structure of a kitchen sponge,” he said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">kind of like neurons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for Michael Beitia Cosmic strings are originally very thin, but hyperdimensional objects, but when observed from low dimensional perspective, they may appear fuzzy. They exhibit Rayleigh-Plateau and Gregory-Laflamme instabilities.. The gravitational waves correspond the indeterministic CMBR noise (i.e. not harmonic waves) - but these fibers can behave like SOFAR channel in underwater and they could enable the spreading of weak harmonic ripples with superluminal speed at limited distance - at least in principle. Quantum states are delicate-or maybe not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have yet to see anything in my pop physics understanding that makes "multi-dimensional" object more than idle speculation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">consider cmbr waves...saints in heaven? saints relics as a bridge...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17421" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">just noise from a tape run in reverse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17422" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">noooooooooooooo. do you think comporting metaphysics and quantum physics is easy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">simple. The inherent quantum fuzziness in electron behavior means that the dryer (on the inside) is unseen and magnifies the quantum effects to the macro, which is why my socks disappear even though I know I put both in the dryer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17424" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's like Schrodinger's cat, only with my socks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do the socks usually turn up?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17426" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">never. they fall through a superluminal wormhole to the other side of the universe. that's what the "M" in M-theory stands for: "Where is my motherf*&king sock?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bull, who is now equivocating?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">okay, what does the M in M-theory stand for, then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">M for “membrane”.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no no no My socks have no-local interaction with particles on the other side of the universe, and when something happens to them, poof! there goes my sock. It's Bell's theorem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dualty The key tool to understanding this breakthrough is something “duality.” Two theories are “dual” to each other if they can be shown to be equivalent under a certain interchange. The simplest example of duality is reversing the role of electricity and magnetism in the equations discovered by James Clerk Maxwell of Cambridge University 130 years ago. These are the equations which govern the understanding of light, TV, X-rays, radar, dynamos, motors, transformers, even the Internet and computers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17432" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm familiar with electro-magnetism, and the standard model, etc. etc. <br />I just need a reason why I keep missing one sock. It's always a nice pair like argyles, or striped ones....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but they eventually turn up, right--they weren't lost.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no they never do. I have a laundry basket that has tons of single socks in it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17436" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the entangled particles met their anti-particles annihilating each other, and consequently, my sock</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17437" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T14:42:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love just watching these conversations unfold. Like water lilies unfolding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17438" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">all is math #mathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17439" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T14:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Water lilies of true gnosis and enlightenment floating on the muddy waters of earthly ignorance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T14:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come recommend your favorite beers:<br />http://socraticum.com/t/beer-recommendations/82</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">now we're talking about the enlightenment again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17442" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha ha ha ha ha........i had a girl fiend once that had 40 different pairs of black socks, all a little different...it was really hard to match them...so rather than matching them, she would just buy new socks.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17443" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Socraticum doesn't work on my phone. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I gave my recommendation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, what exactly is the problem?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USUpaatRyBM<br />Zeitraffer Seerose - Water Lily Time-Lapse<br />Zeitraffer einer sich öffnenden Seerose Timelapse of an opening waterlily<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17447" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T14:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Time-lapse reveals to us a new perception of processes occurring every day. These slow movements in time can only be made visable by speeding up the process.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">504 error: gateway timeout</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17449" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T14:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#vaccinegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm using a Google nexus, so it isn't an old phone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#vaccineherdthink</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17452" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Searching for the wth button</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17453" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">re: Apple watches and expensive gadgets. This guy forgot to read his 'Metaphysics'; he's rather confused about Time: http://www.vox.com/.../time-illusion-mctaggart-unreality<br />The big problem with the Apple Watch is that time is an illusion<br />The idea that time passes requires events to be in the...<br />VOX.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T15:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I don't have as much time to post on TNET as before, so I just do what I can now and then to stir things up mildly and keep it going...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17455" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Anthony Crifasi" data-date="2014-09-12T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Anthony Crifasi at 2014-09-12T15:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, I seem to remember arguments at TAC about whether time exists if there's nobody to count the numbers of motions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-12T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-12T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is just an example of Vox generating click bait content. But time exists potentially if no one is present to count it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-12T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-12T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus the McTaggert argument hinges on some very questionable presuppositions, which the author presents as if this is the only way to view time. Change is nothing other than an event going from future to present to past, pace McTaggert. This assertion is questionable. He subscribes to an event ontology, which necessitates his description of change in this way. Second, to use the argument from retorsion, if time is an illusion because there is no change, we still experience change when we are deluded since we are actually deluded as we move along the C series. Thus change does exist in our mental states, therefore there is time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, I clicked...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17459" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-12T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-12T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is why I hate sites like Vox. Guy reads one philosophy argument, decides it must be valid and sound, then throws up article which proclaims that because time is an illusion (something he merely asserts by another's argument rather than proving conclusively), Apple shouldn't sell watches. Well, that's not a problem for apple, but for all watchmakers. Except this is ridiculous. May Vox and its ilk die soon. Vox is BuzzFeed with a BA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17460" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I didn't know that more traditional speech about marriage was "outrageous". Seeing as the substance of what I said was in the Liguori I posted as well....did I deny an obligation to rear children? No. Not at all. Is rearing children an end of the use of marriage? No. It is not. Procreation is. Rearing is an obligation that flows upon that, but is not an end, as such, of the use of marriage. Heck you can rear children without continuing the use of marriage after procreation.<br />Yes we simplify things and speak of the ends of marriage as being procreation and education, and unity, and remedying concupiscence (though that third is wholly ignored by most)<br />That was not the sense I was talking about, but I was referring to the "essential" ends Liguori mentions. Perhaps I should use a different terminology. E.g., the intrinsic essential ends are monogamy and the indissoluble bond. These exist even without the use of marriage. I believe the 1917 code calls them properties.<br />Sadly Aquinas did not treat of this question as such. He does treat of the "goods of marriage" which is a broader term than ends, but he treats of ends of marriage itself here, in the Super Sententias. Note carefully what he says. He does not say the primary end is "the procreation and education" <br />Ad primum ergo dicendum, quod in prole non solum intelligitur procreatio prolis, sed etiam educatio ipsius, ad quam sicut ad finem ordinatur tota communicatio operum quae est inter virum et uxorem, inquantum sunt matrimonio juncti, quia patres naturaliter thesaurizant filiis, ut patet 2 Corinth. 12, et sic in prole, quasi in principali fine, alius quasi secundarius includitur.<br />To the first therefore it must be said, that in offspring, not only the procreation of offspring, but also their education is understood, to which, just as to an end, the entire sharing of works which are between man and wife, inasmuch as they are joined in marriage, is ordered, since fathers naturally lay up treasures for their sons, as is clear in 2 Cor. 12. and thus, in offspring, as if in a principal end, includes another as it were secondary end. (Super Sent., lib. 4 d. 31 q. 1 a. 2 ad 1)<br />In a real sense, while the education of children is demanded by procreation, and is included with it as a GOOD of marriage, it is not itself an end of the use of marriage. And since valid and licit intent to marry follows upon the intrinsic essential ends and includes the licit reasons for the use of marriage, whereas the education of children belongs to the good of marriage, being a product, not of its use, but as an end of the common life of man and wife resulting therefrom, the education of children should be distinguished from the procreation here. So that, even if, insofar as the "sharing of works", that is common life is weakened in polygyny, the education of children is also hampered, still polygyny does not go directly against the end here, as to its principal part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17461" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear, use of marriage= bo-doinky-doink</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-12T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-12T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bow chicka wow wow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I'm not sure how your citation from Aquinas leads one to think that the upbringing of children is not an end of marriage? Also, isn't "being an end" transitive? If X is an end for Y and Y for Z, then X is an end for Z.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17464" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Langley, re-read what I wrote....I didn't say it wasn't an end of marriage, I said the opposite of that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz--how do you deal w/ the texts I cited--where he explicitly deals w/ goods of marriage AND w/ the ends of marriage--from the Supplement, which is gathered from Thomas's commentary on the Sentences (iirc).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, fwiw, Thomas does not seem to consider the cure of concupiscence an end of marriage per se. Perhaps there is a distinction b/w "end of marriage" and "end of the use of marriage"...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">procreation doesn't require marriage... it is fairly common without it. Why have a long relationship bound in a marriage "thing" if all procreation takes is one night?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if not for rearing and education of children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17469" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said it wasn't an end of the USE of marriage, but followed, quasi secondarius, from procreation of offspring, and both are understood by in prole, a good of marriage<br />Joel HF I think we were quoting from the same place essentially</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17470" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Procreation is not the only end of marriage, and furthermore are natural (i.e. non-sacramental) marriages indissolvable?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17471" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">they're not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17473" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T15:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">singles bars and alcohol end concupiscence... although the end is temporary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz--I do think that Q 65 of the supplement is where Thomas most directly deals w/ the ends of marriage. Here's the quote (I still have the cut and paste up, miraculously): <br />“Matrimonium ergo habet pro fine principali prolis procreationem et educationem: qui quidem finis competit homini secundum naturam sui generis: unde et aliis animalibus est communis.” <br />And further in the same article:<br />The secondary end--i.e. the one proper to man as man, and not just as animal--is “communicationem operum quae sunt necessaria in vita” (See Aristotle NE VIII 12).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-12T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-12T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig ^^ Richard Nutley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I defer to the knowledge of others who have studied moral theology. I would like to see what you make of the texts from Q 65 though, Joshua.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh, missed the distinction between end of marriage and end of use of marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, I'm not sure I'll grant that the end of the use isn't education since the end of the use is instrumental relative to the ends of marriage and thus the latter still are ends of the use in some sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17479" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes and no. Even the power of the pope to dissolve marriage bonds, in not consummated marriages and in disparity of cult marriages was strongly resisted by theologians until the 18th century. Precisely because of the emphasis on indissolubility makes this hard to justify<br />St. Thomas justifies the dissolution of the bond, when not consummated, through the taking of vows, by saying that entering religious life is drying to the world spiritually, and hence death separates. But once consummated, only bodily death suffices!<br />Now, divorce is forbidden even to purely natural marriages, ony the Church can grant divorce in those case, as a privilege for the faith. Maybe one could make a similar argument, that being baptised into Christ changes things? But then the controversial until recently Petrine privilege doesn't jive well...which is why it was resisted!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17480" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-12T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-12T15:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig ^ again, Richard Nutley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17481" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't St. Paul basically say, if your non-baptized pre-conversion spouse wants a divorce, grant it? Or am I misremembering. Anyway, Thomas implies that marriage as sacrament is what makes it truly indissolvable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, that is the Pauline privilege. But it remains that divorce is forbidden even to natural marriages, save as a privilege of faith (Pauline privilege)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Paul allows it because Baptism is a real death.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17484" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T15:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">.<br />Can. 1141 A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death.<br />Can. 1142 For a just cause, the Roman Pontiff can dissolve a non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and a non-baptized party at the request of both parties or of one of them, even if the other party is unwilling.<br />Can. 1143 §1. A marriage entered into by two non-baptized persons is dissolved by means of the pauline privilege in favor of the faith of the party who has received baptism by the very fact that a new marriage is contracted by the same party, provided that the non-baptized party departs.<br />§2. The non-baptized party is considered to depart if he or she does not wish to cohabit with the baptized party or to cohabit peacefully without aVront to the Creator unless the baptized party, after baptism was received, has given the other a just cause for departing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just some authorities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, btw, read Cajetan's commentary on Ia Q 12 Art 1--w/r/t the dispute we were having WAAAY above. I'll note that the first thing Cajetan notes is that the article is dealing with whether "any created intellect" can know God and not with whether any "human intellect" can.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz, the original quote of yours I took exception to was confusing, if you truly were talking about the end of the *use* of marriage and not the end of marriage simply. I think discussing the end of marriage is more relevant to the issue of polygamy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17488" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-12T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-12T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No discussion among TACers can avoid sex talk for very long.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, a Roman who divorced and remarried and THEN converted--does he have to put his wife away?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17490" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do think there is some confusion in terminology here. Ends, goods, properties, are all used differently in different authors. Perhaps I should have avoided Liguori's manner of speaking....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17491" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems rather harsh for the Gentile nations. Israelites have a special dispensation to divorce AND take multiple wives. Gentiles--one wife, no divorce! Good luck with that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. My understanding is that the prohibition is of divine positive law, and was given by Jesus. Though it is a question what about before that with the Gentiles...Christ says Moses allowed it...which means it is after the Noahide covenant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, just convert to Judaism.... although an adult bris may be required.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^So the dispensation would be for "all peoples"? And Thomas understands the reason for the prohibition for Christians to be because marriage is a sign of Christ and his Church and Christ is one etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">???<br />I am not sure about whom the dispensation was for (both Jews and Gentiles?) But it is certain that after Christ no one, not Jews, pagans are Christians can take multiple wives or divorce (save the few odd cases, Pauline, Petrine, non consummatum, etc)<br />Is there a question about whether St. Thomas things polygamy is prohibited now to pagans/Jews? I am not sure when that was settled (Benedict XIV certainly thinks it as settled)....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17496" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it's of divine positive law, Joshua, wouldn't it only bind the baptized to whom it was promulgated?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17497" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:04:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This discussion is all moot now, since the Archangel Maroni relieved us of that silly "1 wife at a time" requirement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17498" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T16:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it binds everyone. That is why only the Church can grant divorce to anyone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no question that St. Thomas thinks that polygamy is contrary to natural law. And God of course could dispense it (assuming polygamy to be contrary in a way that it could be dispensed) for everyone, baptized or not. The question is whether Christ's new teaching on marriage apply to everyone or just the baptized. Also whether the original dispensation only applied to the Israelites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17500" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah! Well Matt Walsh says monogamy is not natural! <br />Samantha Cohoe, you'll love this!<br />http://themattwalshblog.com/.../01/07/monogamy-is-unnatural/<br />Monogamy is unnatural - The Matt Walsh Blog<br />Monogamous marriages are unnatural. On this, I agree...<br />THEMATTWALSHBLOG.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17501" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is Matt Walsh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17502" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T16:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record, on the whole I think he is rather foolish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17503" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T16:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A fool, Joel. Just another fool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what do you mean who is Matt Walsh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17505" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">uuuuuuugh Matt Walsh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not reading it, but if he means not in accord with our fallen nature, then sure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I like Matt)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, Jeff. I didn't mean to offend.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't get offended</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T16:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds like a challenge...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-12T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-12T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_17513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bring it on!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean I'd never heard of him. My finger is far from the pulse of Catholic blogdom. Thank heavens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17515" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's not all bad, just occasionally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17516" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like he was SO WRONG about Noah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">SO. WRONG.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17518" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that's actually the only post of his I've ever read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Noah is a nice fable. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What did he say about Noah?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re concupiscence: Anyone here familiar with the occasion for Diogenes the Cynic's wish that he could relieve his hunger by rubbing his belly? Erik Bootsma</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Noah the movie? Or Noah the patriarch?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ohh, the movie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the loud Catholic bloggers are generally just rash.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17525" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the movie. Catherine-- he just made fun of it. It was kind of funny, but he wasn't at all fair to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, especially on films, there's no accounting for taste...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once read patheos. <shudders></p>
</li>
<li id="post_17528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">chaque a son gout + accents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17529" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bloggers are usually a waste of time. Sometimes a welcome waste of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET, on the other hand, is never a waste of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17531" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">P.S. Yes, Joel , that story is vaguely familiar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17532" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T16:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">His Noah review was where I began to suspect he had no literary sensibilities. His piece on Robin Williams was where I realized he's an obnoxious turd and stopped promoting his writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh no, never a waste of time...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17534" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-12T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-12T16:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, talk to Joseph Andrew Chaney.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only good blogs I've run across are:<br />http://thomism.wordpress.com<br />http://branemrys.blogspot.com/<br />http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17536" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T16:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF With regard to the former, the Church has answered that...it binds everyone. That is why if I seek to marry an unbaptised woman, who "divorced" her unbaptised husband, I cannot. Because they are still married in the eyes of the Church. But if she is baptised and he will not live with her, that is different. But note only upon baprism does the Pauline privilege take. So before that, no divorce (cf. ASS 34, p. 550...and yes I mean ASS, not AAS...it is an older document) But of course this is merely baccking the assertion that it is so, not an explanation of how<br />With regard to the latter, that I do not know. St. Thomas' article implies it was only to the Jew wrt polygamy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew Matt Walsh was going to make an appearance here eventually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As well as this: http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/<br />from time to time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17539" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Erik Bootsma--where do you think I first heard the story? #diogeneslives</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-12T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-12T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chastek's been running that Thomism blog for over a decade solid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't mind Matt Walsh, as long as I'm aware he is being intentionally inflammatory and (perhaps unintentionally) imprecise, and sometimes intentionally "insensitive".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, he was better longer ago. But he's still worthwhile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but of course... that is how you grow readership</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nobody likes reading a bore</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a good point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are definitely some bloggers whose charm is their outrageousness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">While she might not be to everyone's taste, Ann Coulter is a prime example of this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17548" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Walsh have a particular angle? Like you know, Mark Shea has cornered the whole "Loud Catholic who is almost always obnoxiously wrong and is cringe-inducing even when right"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_17550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is a good blog that everyone here should go to. http://www.danherrickphilosophy.com/<br />Dan Herrick Philosophy<br />Philosophy with a vision to bring you closer to God through daily articles and interactive conversation. Think as much as possible.<br />DANHERRICKPHILOSOPHY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17551" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Walsh I think manages to be right 80% of the time and nearly always imprudent in his manner of delivery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17552" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is imprudent per se is prudent blogiciter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17553" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one ever got followers on the internet by being measured and reasonable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The death of google reader really meant I stopped following most blogs. Mostly sports blogs now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The hard thing to see when one agrees with x blogger is how off-putting he is to everyone who disagrees with him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T16:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And perhaps vice versa.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17557" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, feedly is pretty good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did Herrick overlap w/ Caleb at Princeton?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup. He and his wife are very close friends of ours.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's also an amazing rapper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So no one ever answered this--to what extent, if any, is Calvin's doctrine on predestination different from Thomas's? Joshua Kenz; Samantha Cohoe; Jehoshaphat Escalante</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Double vs. single predestination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(as I understand it)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that double vs. single predestination stuff is just a technicality</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think so. It's the difference between saying that God permits an evil vs. saying that God wills an evil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel-- I don't know for sure, though I'm sure there's lots of overlap and they both pretty much lifted their views from Augustine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17567" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-12T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-12T16:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading Thomas on the subject reminds me of the caricature (not in a bad sense) version of double predestination that I learnt as a kid, but with lots of distinctions thrown in and presented much more carefully. But I'm not sure I even understand Thomas's teaching, and heaven knows this is hardly a settled question in the church (either as to the actual doctrine or as to what St. Thomas thought).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17568" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-12T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-12T16:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I looked at the Summa passages recently, Joel, and he's pretty careful to distinguish what God orders from what he permits (ordinat vs. permittit).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17569" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T17:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Calvin's doctrine on predestination need not be read as all that different than Aquinas or Augustine. <br />This is a gross simplification, especially since TULIP is not always like by Calvinists to summarize their doctrine here, but take it for what it is worth<br />Total Depravity- Any actual Calvinist I have read does not understand this as I had been led to think they do. What I mean is, if one says, simpliciter, that every act before justification is a sin, sure that is wrong. But every act before justification is a sin, in a certain respect. This is explicit in Augustine and is in Aquinas too, who understands it to mean that no act can be rightly ordered to our due final end. Which is true.<br />Unconditional election- God elects some people for salvation, without regarding foreseen merits. If we understand by this complete predestination (that is both to grace and glory) that all Catholics agree that it is unconditional, it would be heretical semi-pelagianism to say otherwise. If understood as referring only to the election to glory, and not to grace, then some Molinists (not all) hold that this is conditional, but most theologians, historically, have held unconditional (Thomist, Congruists, Syncretists, Augustinians, Scotists). Consequently, excepting the late Fr. Most and his weird positions, all Catholics hold that positive reprobation (the decree predestining this person to hell) is based on foreseen demerits (as Augustine holds quite explicitly), but some Molinists hold that negative reprobation (the passing over and permitting to sin) is based on foreseen sin, but most, including Molinists, hold that negative reprobation is unconditional (oterwise circular...the permission to sin is given because of foreseen sin?).<br />If we understand double-predestination to mean God, from all eternity, predestines some to heaven and others to hell. Well that is Catholic doctrine, even if we came to use predestination to refer to election, and reprobation for the decree to damnation to avoid confusion. If we understand it to means complete predestination (both the end and the means thereto), then we only hold this as unconditional and predestined with election (as God is the cause not just of glory but of merits), but we deny it of reprobation (God decrees the sentence, He does not cause us to sin). Again, most Calvinists I have read would hold a similar distinction and would not make God a predestinator of evil.<br />Limited Atonement- If this is understood to mean that, in every sense, Christ died only for the elect, then we hold this as heretical. Similarly, in a Jansenist context, if it means Christ died only for the faithful (namely only for those that will obtain grace at some point, even if they should fall later), it is offensive to pious ears and savoring of heresy (those are the Church's words)<br />But if we understand it to mean that Christ's death is only effective for the elect, or the faithful in general, but sufficient for all, and we affirm the antecedent will to save all men, then this is in accord with the Roman Catechism explaining "for many". Further, Calvinists are divided on how to understand this. I myself have read Calvin make a similar distinction to Aquinas's antecedent and consequent wills. I believe "will of decree" and "prescriptive will" was the distinction.<br />Remember that Aquinas says, simply speaking God does NOT will the salvation of all, but only secundum quid. And this seems obviously true, in that God could predestine everyone to heaven regardless of your views on how that works, but does not.<br />Irresistible Grace- We must say that the will is free to resist even under the influence of efficacious grace, but what does that mean? By definition it will not resist under efficacious grace after all. The way it can resist is only the same as when I say "I am sitting, I could stand. But while I am sitting I cannot be standing" <br />From my understanding, some Calvinists present irresistible grace as a victorious delectation, which is Augustinianism. And this is held both in a corrupted form by Jansenists, and by Augustinians. One is condemned, the other approved. Approval is made on the condition that one does not hold it as something extrinsically necessitating the will. But the necessity is interior. Here, through an infallible moral motion of the will. Others I have heard explain it like Thomists, with the physical pre-motion of the will. Others do not think it wise to explain.<br />I have yet to meet a Calvinist that holds there is no freedom in the act. Whether the details of how this or that one holds the workings are compatible with Catholic doctrine, well that varies. But I think as a general doctrine, it need not be opposed<br />Perseverance of the Saints- The doctrine that one who is justified will not fall from that state. Here we clearly disagree. To Calvinists anyone predestined to grace is predestined to glory. We hold some come to grace, but fall and do not obtain glory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17570" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T17:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat Escalante can correct me on any of the points about Calvinist doctrine. I know it is not always as monolithic as the caricature I learned,and I know there are many internet commenters that self-label Calvinist who fit the caricatures. But thus is my understanding of serious Calvinist theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-12T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-12T17:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes Joshua thats basically right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T17:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tl;dr</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-12T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-12T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's funny because I totally read and it was awesome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17574" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-12T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-12T18:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Michael Beitia<br />Calvinists don't all agree on everything, but by and large what they hold on predestination is not contrary to what Catholics may hold, with the exception of the belief that those who come to grace do not fall away from grace (if predestined to grace you are predestined to glory)<br />Was that short enough?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It could have been shorter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T18:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or say something radical, which would inspire a reader to pay attention.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17577" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T18:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua: I did read it, it was my way of saying "well put, I have nothing of value to add" and still get notifications when the subject changes to something I more interest in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17578" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T18:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wish me luck y'all - featuring my poetry tonight in front of real live poets. Cheers! I will compose an ode to TNET if all goes well. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">post video somewhere</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-12T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-12T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bonne chance!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17581" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T18:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will try to have someone with a magic phone capture a poem or two</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T18:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">write a poem on the magic phone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17583" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T18:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Friiiiiiiiiiday!!!<br />http://youtu.be/r5WgYoRCs2U<br />The Dubliners & the Pogues - Whiskey in the jar<br />From their collaboration in 1987<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good version....Metallica, Thin Lizzy, The Dead, all the real irish versions....never gets old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's good craic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe here this in church one day at midnight mass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jFn9T1ge2g</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17587" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T18:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">this too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au30c9ZMIPg<br />The Pogues With The Dubliners<br />the pogues perform the irish rover with the dubliners RIP RONNIE DREW<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17588" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T18:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And this:<br />http://youtu.be/gMMgIqW9vso<br />Dirty old town - The Pogues<br />Brilliant song<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the barque of ireland...a song for Ian Paisley</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17590" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T18:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a bit torn about Paisley. What he did in his last few years to bring about the peace was noble ... but man, what a life. May God forgive him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">on bbc today, he said in an old interview that he had a brush with death-and it focused his thinking...a hard man...400 years of orange men in one voice...there will never be another Reverend Ian Paisley.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17592" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T19:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">just as long as you stick to "dirty old town" and not the sick bed of Cuchulainn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T19:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i never liked dirty old town....but, It was Christmas Eve, in the drunk tank-and old man said to me, not see another one-than he sang a song- ...The Rare Old Mountain Dew<br />I turned my face away<br />And dreamed about you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17594" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T19:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEe7_b6NHtA<br />The Pogues - The Rocky Road To Dublin<br />Previously unreleased<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if the barque of peter wasn't divine, the wee boys would have kicked the bottom out of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17596" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T19:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCoUj3kSwrc<br />The dropkick murphys- Rocky road to dublin<br />uber irish rock song<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17597" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T19:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKkMKbocjOA<br />UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!<br />Lemongrab - Unacceptable Back and Forth<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Play whatever you want, Jeff: the thread is wide open ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cmon Jeff...Ian Paisley only gets to die once....and there is some dancing in some sectors around. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17600" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T19:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's times like these when I'm proud to say: I have zero Irish blood in me. (JOKE! I know how sensitive you Irish types are)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">basques don't understand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17602" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T19:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a willful ignorance, Frank</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ETA or IRA?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ETA all day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Guggenheim in Bilbao is an abomination</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17606" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">should be blown up on aesthetic principle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">will call an uncle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually like Richard Serra's work, but 'de gustibus ...'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">disagree?:<br />http://www.apite.eu/.../_migr.../pics/guggenheim4744x300.png<br />APITE.EU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you hear the one about the IRA foot soldier who went to confession?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, I haven't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He confessed, saying "Bless me Father for I have sinned, I blew up the railway tracks last week."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-12T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-12T20:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">kicked out of the church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17615" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And so the priest says: "Okay, I will absolve you, but for your pennance I want you to do the Stations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_17617" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was talking about the building itself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17618" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Frank Gehry, I believe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, it looks like that other one of his, in downtown L.A.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Walt Disney Concert Hall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Better than the "massive" art piece.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">here's the opera:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Frank_Gehry<br />List of works by Frank Gehry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />This list of works by Frank Gehry categorizes the work of...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">crap from top to bottom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://upload.wikimedia.org/.../Image-Disney_Concert_Hall...<br />UPLOAD.WIKIMEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is to deflect lasers when the aliens finally attack</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17626" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-12T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-12T20:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a Transformer sleeping.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.latimes.com/.../la-levitated-mass-photo...<br />'Levitated Mass' opens at LACMA<br />With iPhones and cameras out, crowds virtually stampeded the white concrete path to view Michael Heizer's...<br />LATIMES.COM|BY LOS ANGELES TIMES</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">except instead of sleeping in the shape of a car or truck, it is an inside out fun house</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I that a big rock, Jeffie?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">on two walls?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A big rock on a ditch.... They shut down the freeway system to move it on a huge truck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T20:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So close to 18,000. I don't have anything controversial to say. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-12T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-12T20:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the sculpture is the Jane Austen of sculpture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17634" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-12T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-12T20:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^evil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T20:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was able to get verification that the church's definition of conception is not at implantation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-12T20:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sperm, meet egg.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-09-12T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-09-12T20:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Ryland Bring up Euclid's Fifth Postulate just for giggles?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17638" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-12T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-12T20:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dirty Old Town is a fantastic song.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-12T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-12T21:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Machiavelli was far before his time. The prince is a great book on leadership and applies incredibly well infernal business</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-12T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-12T21:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET need to take the weekend off</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17641" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-09-12T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-09-12T21:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson Don't say you didn't ask for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahvSgFHzJIc<br />Loverboy- Working For The Weekend<br />Loverboy- Working For The Weekend Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17642" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-15T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-15T14:43:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET 20000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17643" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T14:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's back, Samantha; just when I thought I was going to get some writing done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17644" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did we do this, Daniel? Others were whining, too, but from the timing it appears that Matthew heeded our sadness in particular.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17645" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T14:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we're his favorites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T14:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or else he hates your writing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17647" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T14:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I am writing about illumination theory in the later middle ages ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17648" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T14:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somebody tag Isak, I want to know how his poetry reading went.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17649" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">also,http://www.themorgan.org/.../divine-jane-reflections-austen<br />The Divine Jane: Reflections on Austen | Video | The Morgan Library & Museum<br />Watch more videos:<br />THEMORGAN.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew McGuire" data-date="2014-09-15T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew McGuire at 2014-09-15T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys have really slowed down. I was expecting exponential growth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17651" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson keeps shutting us down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17652" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak - we're up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#Buzzkill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think Matthew was getting complaints? I take the new instruction on blocking TNET to be evidence of this thesis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17655" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">beats me? I just want all these super smart Aristotelian-Thomist types to explain to me quantum mechanics using only matter and form. That should be good for a couple hundred comments, and laughs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you have to phrase your challenge a little more specifically if you want it to take off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FACT: Aristotle's physics are out-dated, and don't take into account the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in describing nature.<br />FACT: matter and form only describe notional or human made divisions and not nature (unless the division is tautological)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17658" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Handwaving ... Heisenberg ... handwaving ... potency ... handwaving ... indeterminate ... handwaving ... and fin. How's that Michael Beitia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">close.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pay no attention to the man behind the Mckeon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not enough of us super-smart hylomorphic types (alright, that doesn't really describe me) know enough about QM to really say much at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17662" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Caleb might. I'll ask him at dinner and get back to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17663" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe everyone should go home and read their Copenhagen Interpretation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17664" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that hasn't stopped us/them from writing about relativity or hell even classical mechanics, now has it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17665" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ahh, dinner table #gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is everybody impressed that Cornel West thinks Jane Austen is all about freedom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17667" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cornel West is so cool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Austen is about freedom I'd rather be a natural slave (as was accused earlier....) <br />Freedom.... pshaw.... freedom to be banal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17669" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cornel West is disappointed in you, Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17670" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If eliciting disappointment was marketable, I wouldn't be at "work" right now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/.../CornelWest.jpg<br />THEOCCIDENTALOBSERVER.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17672" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's Cornel West's disappointed face.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope you feel chastened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17674" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-15T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-15T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Scottish Independence. For or against?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope. I feel empowered</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-15T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-15T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is that too relevant a topic to be discussed amongst TAC alum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, if Groundskeeper Willie is for it....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm against it for reasons of historical aestheticism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-15T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-15T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Explain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love Brother West. Here he is in a cab talking about Plato et al.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfD3X3f5C_w<br />Examined Life - Cornel West<br />Cornel West excerpts from Examined Life, a 2008 documentary film directed by Astra Taylor. The film...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm in favor of Scottish Independence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is not a deeply thought out position. I think it's pleasing the way the line of succession joined up both nations in James I and VI. Great Britain is awesome and did lots of awesome things and it would be sad if it went out of existence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17683" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This will all be moot when they bring back the Stuarts, rightful kings of Scotland *and* England.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there still a Stuart claimant kicking around somewhere hoping the Jacobites take control of Scottish parliament?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17685" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">English hegemony has been destructive in several parts of the world. Time to end it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Franz, Duke of Bavaria, is the current head of the Stuart household, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's been destructive *and* awesome. In different respects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, so does Franz have a real shot at taking the Scottish throne if independence happens? If so, I reverse my position</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17690" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sadly for us Jacobites, none since the cardinal king Henry IX have actually claimed their rightful throne. Luckily, the divine right of kings needs the consent of neither the governed nor governor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17691" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I made up that last bit, I think even the divine right of kings recognizes abdication. But we do have the precedent of forcibly making men bishops and even popes, so ....)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the current idea is that the Queen would still be monarch over Scotland.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17693" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">divine right of kings is mythological</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17694" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kinda like Canada.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17695" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">'Merica's back 40, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Scotland would still be in the Commonwealth? Laaaaaame.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the divine right thing was a modern development.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is not how to claim Independence, guys.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sort of grew up side by side with the myth of "nation state"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17700" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman--we already established that the Stuarts are the rightful kings. Also, Michael Beitia, I suspect you of harboring modernist enlightenment principles!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, still in the commonwealth, just poorer and in a worse position all around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17702" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">suspect away, I'm a card-carrying anarchist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But "free."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even King David derived is right to rule from the consent of the people of Israel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17705" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anarchists carry cards? Kind of wrecks the spirit of the thing, doesn't it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-15T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-15T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anyone had a divine right to rule it was David.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17707" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which species of anarchism are you talking about? Bakunin? Kropotkin? Proudhon?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-15T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-15T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think to become independent from England and not be part of the Commonwealth you have to kill a lot of people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a left-authoritarian type of guy: I can't keep track of all your divisions. It's worse than protestantism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahaha ...... nothing's worse than Protestantism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">except popery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">King David derived his right to rule from the consent of the people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On that libertarian bar-graph thingy, I always come out way to the left and slightly into the authoritarian quadrant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not on the division thing, though. You've got us beat, there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17715" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T15:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Libertarians suck</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about potpourri?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17717" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">interesting, I always come out way to the left and not authoritarian. (unless they ask about social issues like pornography, then I float more toward authoritarian)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17718" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Libertarians? <br />Ayn Rand as the natural successor and fulfillment of Aristotle: GO!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Strong words on Scotland.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17720" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, re QM, Aristotle invented it and it took until Heisenberg et al for scientists to get the memo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">exactly Edward. QM/QP and Metaphysics. The Thread/SuperStringTheory---now the telos must be optimization and control, for the common good. The Noble Truths to counter balance the Noble Lies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but what is the means to the telos? what is the means?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17723" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha! next you'll tell me that sub-atomic particles are "prime matter" or have incomplete substantial form.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, that would be completely crackers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17725" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">substantial form is a noble lie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">prove it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17727" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kinda like calling an electron either a wave or a particle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not either. wave and particle. Copenhagen? where are you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When waves and particles are just models of experimental effects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah, that would be non sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, waves are real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was referring to the way physics is taught.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17733" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, you're the metaphysical guru, and I'm just a humble baby sitter--but did old Aristotle, invent QM, or somehow observe it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">baby sitter? I'm just a midwife</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17735" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Frank, that was inflammatory hyperbole. But Heisenberg did tell us to think about QM probability as Aristotle's potentia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sneaky...where is that cat?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the threads are delicate-yet resilient.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is roughly what one would expect to find if the material parts of substances had less being than complete substances.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(i.e. since the less actual is less determinate)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're quoting Heisenberg out of context</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17741" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">he follows up the potentia, by saying <br />"Modern physics is of course not satisfied with only qualitative description of the fundamental structure of matter; it must try on the basis of careful experimental investigations to get a mathematical formulation of those natural laws that determine the "forms" of matter...."<br />I'm home next to my book case now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-15T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-15T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see how that nullifies my claim, though: it more indicates to me that he has the relation between the "qualitative" and the "quantitative" wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-15T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-15T16:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, read the text, Edward! *best seminar voice*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Daniel, re: Scotland, I'm a supporter of every seccession.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17745" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose our observation, which causes waveform collapse, gives the particle its substantial form.... or not...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17746" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but what if the quality and quantity keeps shifting the more and more closely one observes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wow mb-that was pretty fast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">now need to comport laws of physics with moral law and praxis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17749" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-15T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-15T17:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The reading really could not have gone any better, folks - thanks for the support. Unfortunately I don't think there is any video but maybe that will be an upcoming project.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17750" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-15T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-15T17:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also - TNET 20000!!! Onward!! Once more into the breach, and fill the walls with our English dead!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">this hit 13 minutes ago...http://www.nytimes.com/.../a-discoverer-as-elusive-as-his...<br />A Pioneer as Elusive as His Particle<br />The Nobel laureate Peter Higgs, 85, whose public appearances have been as rare and fleeting as the...<br />NYTIMES.COM|BY DENNIS OVERBYE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17752" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dying was nothing and he had no picture of it nor fear of it in his mind. But living was a field of grain blowing in the wind on the side of a hill. Living was a hawk in the sky. Living was an earthen jar of water in the dust of the threshing with the grain flailed out and the chaff blowing. Living was a horse between your legs and a carbine under one leg and a hill and a valley and a stream with trees along it and the far side of the valley and the hills beyond.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is fun. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01124a.htm<br />CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Actus Et Potentia<br />A technical expression in scholastic phraseology used to translate Aristotle's energeia or entelecheia, and dynamis<br />NEWADVENT.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-09-15T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-09-15T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia Silly. Everyone knows that prime matter is tofu. Berquist said so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On another subject, I just found out that it's common practice for Catholic parishes to charge per child for Sunday school. What the what??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Charge? charge what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Money!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no. we have catechism once a week (Tuesday nights) and they provide the book</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Glad to hear the practice isn't universal, but several catholic ladies i know confirmed the practice in their parish</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what people pay into, they commit to...I have no problem with a small fee to teach the children the faith. My grand parents took their gold wedding rings and donated them to the church for the chalices....commitment is commitment, and buy in helps the organization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17761" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T19:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmm Ed was saying something funny about QM, and then he went away....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You could use the same argument to support charging admittance for mass, Frank. In evangelical churches, Sunday school is a part of children's ministry. You don't charge people to be ministered to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T20:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mass is different. the Eucharist is a common good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17764" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T20:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">so is teaching about Jesus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17765" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T20:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the gospel is a common good</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17766" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T20:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, and the little children are brought away from the mass, and taught the gospel...if the parents went to church and brought the kids...problem solved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but, now--attendance dropping....so it goes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17768" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T20:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i liked the Actus Et Potentia stuff...thank you TNET for introducing it to moi.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get the impression that it's pretty hard to be a family with little kids in the Catholic Church. No nursery, not a lot of children's programs generally, and then there are all the people in mass who expect all children to sit still and quiet through the whole service.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i like it when the priest calls the fussing of children the voice of angels...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17771" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-15T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-15T20:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A crying child is a wonderful excuse to avoid a bad homily . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17772" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't get me started on bad homilies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and a a bad homily is a wonderful opportunity to express humility and stay there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17774" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-15T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-15T20:41:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am rightly rebuked for my lack of humility. I guess I will have to stop pinching my children to get them to cry when I want to escape a deadly homily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17775" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-15T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-15T20:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are Catholic churches with Sunday schools?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17776" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T21:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was told by a priest once that the crying of infants is how we sound to God. small consolation as my 4th screamed incessantly for the first two years of his life.......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17777" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T21:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Samantha, it's not a service, it's Mass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17778" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T21:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">mass and energia...oh yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17779" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T21:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">eternal return...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">at every moment on earth....that's the time thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"we shall harness for God the energies of love. And then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire." teillard chardin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAFH2_3o-oo<br />White Lion - When the Children Cry [HD]<br />White Lion - When the Children Cry (Official Music Video)<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17783" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Frank Morris" data-date="2014-09-15T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(91, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Frank Morris at 2014-09-15T21:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">little chiiild, dry your crying eyes-how can i explain.........hoooooooo, that's bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T21:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">frankly, I find the idea of "sunday school" or "children's programs" to be pandering. I hate pandering</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh please. What's pandering about teaching children about Jesus? Is it pandering to support families attempting to bring up their children in the faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I know y'all don't call it a service, but I'd already used "mass" in the sentence. Anyway, isn't service sort of a generic term?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17787" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T21:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">separating and talking down to them is not the same as supporting or teaching</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-15T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-15T21:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Protestants.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cXrEPNvRO8<br />Norman Greenbaum - Spirit in the Sky (PSK Remastered)<br />v.2 Thanks for the 1,463 likes people (11/18/13) (New)...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T21:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">apparently you had a bad experience with Sunday school somewhere along the line. Mine have been good, especially the ones my kids are involved with.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17790" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-15T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-15T21:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam Rocha - this is what the youth mass at Stuebenville was like, right?<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cXrEPNvRO8<br />Norman Greenbaum - Spirit in the Sky (PSK Remastered)<br />v.2 Thanks for the 1,463 likes people (11/18/13) (New)...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17791" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-15T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-15T21:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Psychedelic gospel rock, man. Pure sixties. A Jewish rocker singing about Jesus. Dig it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha - I've been to pretty much every church imaginable. Raised as an atheist, but grew up in Mormon country. <br />As to my thoughts on pandering, I have four children that have made first communions, and have been through catechism (independent of Mass) with each of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17793" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Adam Fuller" data-date="2014-09-15T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adam Fuller at 2014-09-15T21:34:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have anything to contribute to this thread. I just wanted to provide the 18,016th comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-15T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-15T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I didn't mean to make condescending assumptions or anything. I just don't see why you would say Sunday school is "talking down" to kids if you hadn't had a bad experience. I've been in just about every kind of church too. Sunday school can be bad if its done badly, but that's a bug, not a feature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree, but for obvious reasons. I think Sunday should be the family all together. Separation is never good, IMHO. However, I can see how it would appeal to parents</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17796" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-15T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(70, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-15T22:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there is Sunday school and there's Sunday school. And there's bad homilies and there're homilies that are an occasion of sin for which taking out crying babies is a remedy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17797" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(61, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but seriously, what happened to physics contra Aristoilet, adn #mathgnoisi!!? we have been derailed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17798" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-15T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-15T22:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, mine makes 18,020.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-15T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-15T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never heard Aristoilet before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-15T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-15T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">May I submit this as another of TNET's many themes? "The road goes on forever and the party never ends."<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj6HfWp-eh0<br />The Highwaymen - The Road Goes On Forever<br />From the album The Road Goes On Forever (10th...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17801" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-15T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-15T22:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">like Aristotle, only all his arguments are crap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-15T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-15T22:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does he make any sounds when you kick him, or does he just gurgle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17803" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Stouffer" data-date="2014-09-15T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Stouffer at 2014-09-15T22:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, things are looking up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17804" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-16T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-16T00:33:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Phew. Just submitted 2 proposals to the Kalamazoo Medieval Congress at the midnight hour.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T08:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T08:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I've got no takers in a defense of Aristotle's physics?<br />How about a question: does a rock have a substantial form? Or do all the diverse parts of the rocks have substantial forms, and the whole is an accidental unity? Does it really make sense to talk about substantial forms outside of living things?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17806" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T08:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would take you up but my ignorance has been exposed too many times already. Good questions but physics is filed in my memory archives under Lethe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T09:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is the substantial form of a cat? That which makes a cat to be a cat. the particular instantiation of catness. The whatness of the stufficity whereby one cats a cat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17808" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T09:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">crap. I forgot "thinghood"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T09:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An essentially hypocritical whatness or a cosmetically clean and pure animal that preens continually and licks the unlickable to have the most spotless anus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T09:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have had some 12 cats in the last year. Distinguishing attributes and properties from their quiddity is my science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T09:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The substantial forms of inanimate things are weak yet still the principle of unity. In the case of animate things they are stronger but naming is never as precise as we would want. It is but straw in the end and yet invaluable straw that prevents absurdities. Without them the world is unintelligible and the atomists and nominalists do not escape the problem either; they betray their reliance in ordinary speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T09:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how is it not tautological?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-16T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-16T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When it falls away from the form, it is less than what it was supposed to be.<br />Standing cat is not cat, but it looks like one at times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T10:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it lacks the catness of caticity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-16T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-16T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Less catastic due to uncatly behavior</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catastrophic catness admits of cat-tastic degree? Schrodinger may have something to say about that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-16T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-16T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17818" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T11:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Schrodinger is dead..... or is he?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-16T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-16T12:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can has or can not has?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T12:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Forget medieval logic. All hail "thought" "experiment". #mathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17821" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="David Upham" data-date="2014-09-16T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">David Upham at 2014-09-16T12:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I shall never depart from this thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17822" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">These are serious questions (originally) John, I don't see how Aristotle's physics means anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If all we mean by "substantial form" is what it is to be what it is, I don't see how anything can be deduced or learned from this tautology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that your questions are serious but I am really too illiterate to answer. I have similar concerns though about modern physics: mathematical formulae seem to hide more than they reveal and veer off into the land of fantasy and absurdity: and that is an age old criticism of physics: give them time and they refute themselves. But thanks to you I am now wondering what the whatness of everything is. Barfield's "Saving the Appearances" is a corrective for seeing only invisible atoms, but is not demonstrative proof. I haven't read the physics in too long but the intelligibility of things requires a doctrine of forms. The alternatives lead to absurdities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-16T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-16T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, the first question is: can you really explain change without recourse to form and matter?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-16T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-16T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this object. Were the plan of the convention adverse to the public happiness, my voice would be, Reject the plan. Were the Union itself inconsistent with the public happiness, it would be, Abolish the Union. In like manner, as far as the sovereignty of the States cannot be reconciled to the happiness of the people, the voice of every good citizen must be, Let the former be sacrificed to the latter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-16T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-16T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And "catness" is not the same as "the substantial form of cat" since "catness" includes matter disposed to receive such a form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, yes. yes I can</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, so you're an anarchist too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"substantial form of cat" has only notional existence, because it is not separable from cat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17831" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-16T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-16T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cat = "fur + tail" That is the cat test. Does it have fur? Does it have a tail? Then it must be a cat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17832" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--szrOHtR6U<br />VeggieTales: Monkey Silly Song<br />Silly Song from Big Idea, the makers of VeggieTales. This song can be seen on the DVD entitled, "The Wonderful...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://dims.vetstreet.com/.../thum.../645x380/quality/90/...<br />DIMS.VETSTREET.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-16T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-16T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ not a cat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, it's an ape</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But does the notional participate in a (non analogous) way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-16T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-16T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is a cat http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/10d-17/vervet-monkey.jpg<br />MCCULLAGH.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-16T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-16T13:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Note both the fur and the tail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, it's a monkey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I rearrange the dna sequence of a chicken I get a small dinosaur. Is it a toothed chicken with scales, or what? how does substantial form explain anything more than simply a rearrangement of parts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17841" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-16T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-16T13:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha started reading Gilead yesterday. Didn't realize it was set in Iowa, the tone is very Iowan. Congregationalist are a rural minority around here too, afaik. Very promising!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It explains the principle of a thing's unicity and intelligibility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17843" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you really create a chickosaurus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW: "WHERE ALL THE 'RISTOTHOMISTS AT?!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17845" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Dominic Bolin" data-date="2014-09-16T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominic Bolin at 2014-09-16T13:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It takes too long to type anything with one hand, so I just don't bother.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-16T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-16T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.londontheatredirect.com/.../CatsToMakeWestEnd...<br />LONDONTHEATREDIRECT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17847" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Abandon forms and down down the slick slope to militant magisterial nominalist fideism. . . . aka PB/SW. RIP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-16T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-16T14:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matter without form is just algae</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not even: blocks, stones, worse than senseless things . . if that. And even the stone ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T14:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there's no matter without form. they are inseparable. (one might extend this to say simply: there's no matter and form.....)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think 'ristothomists duck the question because matter/form notional distinction can't explain modern science. It works well as a pre-scientific understanding, but get Ockhamized in the end</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">disagree. But I don't have the comprehensive theory for everything perfected. A couple stones to polish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As things increase in complexity the need for a principle of unicity is more apparent. But things like mud and stone and atoms appear to have almost no form at all. Rather they are matter to be ordered and stuff to be taken up by beings of higher form. Modern science is at loss to explain the ordering and unifying principle: it would be tidier if the question didn't exist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17854" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T14:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ack biology is just applied chemistry, chemistry is just applied physics, and physics is just applied mathematics. <br />unicity is meaningless at the most basic level. (a pile of stones has no form, but each of the constituents must, right?) I suppose the question of modern science pushes the level of unicity to another level. Are atoms fundamental? yes and no. are the constituents of atoms (protons, neutrons, electrons) fundamental? yes and no. where is the unicity? All electrons are the same</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So DNA on the cellular level is the unifying and ordering principle of the oak?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the individual cells just tap into the world spirit or sumfin', and voila, they get on the same page without any need for commitees to assign and oversee the formation and proper alignment of xylum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17857" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">biology is messy. But formality makes more sense with living things. but isn't there a sort of mathematical unity that is given to something by virtue of structure on the DNA level?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mathematics idolatry still. Just smash it Michael.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I see problems with the substantial form but I will stick with it until the next best thing. I can't answer your objections but it gets messy as you acknowledge without it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17860" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-16T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-16T16:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia has already seen this, but I'm adding it to the thread because I know there are other fans of Darnielle / Mountain Goats out there. (Sam Rocha maybe?)<br />http://electricliterature.com/interview-john-darnielle.../<br />INTERVIEW: John Darnielle, author of Wolf in White Van<br />Nearly every song on John Darnielle’s fourteen albums...<br />ELECTRICLITERATURE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-16T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-16T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a big fan, but his politics are just so terrible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-16T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-16T16:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know about his politics, but don't tell me. I don't want to spoil the music.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-16T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-16T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_17864" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-16T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-16T16:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't look up live shows from the last, oh, 3 years or so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17865" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-16T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-16T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw him play as a duo with his bassist in Detroit in 2013. He didn't say much between songs. It was a great set. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue about it -- I usually don't pay any attention to a musician's politics unless it's an integral part of his/her music (e.g., Billy Bragg).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I second Joel, it will spoil something....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17867" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">new topic: why do musicians/actors/athletes think we care about their political opinions?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T17:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">because we do. Why is that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T17:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe we should ask them about the substantial form of a pile of rocks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T17:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">most actors are a pile of rocks (between the ears)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17871" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Their co-formality may give them special #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">rocks don't have substantial form</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17873" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T17:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#rockgnosis [the cure for hyperdulia of math]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-16T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-16T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson: I fear that it may be necessary one day, (if it isn't already necessary today,) to abolish the Union for the preservation of the public good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-16T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-16T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a question for the denizens of TNET. What exactly was the manna in the desert? The Israelites jokingly called it "what," but what did they call it when they weren't joking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17876" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-16T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-16T18:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*gnosis gnosis gnosis*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17877" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T20:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sustenative rock bread material</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17878" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-16T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-16T20:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak-- I always pictured it as a super thin graham cracker.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17879" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-09-16T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-09-16T21:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tofu. Dried Tofu. Now you know why they complained so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17880" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-16T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-16T21:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A super thin graham cracker made out of protein powder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-16T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-16T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, the Jacobite heir is a Bavarian duke at this time. The last real claimant to the throne was Henry Cardinal Benedict Stuart. He almost became pope, and so came very close to uniting in his person king of England and head of Church!<br />In his latter years he was financially supported by the Hannover 'pretenders'. And the monument, in the Vatican, to the Stuart kings, including the good Cardinal Duke of York, was last restored through generous donation from Elizabeth....really think they have reconciled </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17882" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-16T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-16T22:10:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, authority is not derived from consent of the govern, you heretic!<br />I kid, I kid. It frustrates me to no end that I have every issue of the Thomist save the 1950's, because there were some great articles in that decade. One was on various competing theories of the authority of governance. Bossuet, Suarez, Thomas...it was fascinating and the author was better versed than I in explaining Thomas here . First, to show I submit to the magisterium<br />"Those who believe civil society to have risen from the free consent of men, looking for the origin of its authority from the same source, say that each individual has given up something of his right,[15] and that voluntarily every person has put himself into the power of the one man in whose person the whole of those rights has been centered. But it is a great error not to see, what is manifest, that men, as they are not a nomad race, have been created, without their own free will, for a natural community of life. It is plain, moreover, that the pact which they allege is openly a falsehood and a fiction, and that it has no authority to confer on political power such great force, dignity, and firmness as the safety of the State and the common good of the citizens require. Then only will the government have all those ornaments and guarantees, when it is understood to emanate from God as its august and most sacred source. (Diurturnum, Leo XIII)"<br />In a rather nasty non-debate I had with some Americanists, in which a priest had to repeatedly call people on misrepresenting what I said, I summed up my views thusly, and this still makes the best sense tome<br />"Government derives all of its just authority from the common good. The actual establishment of goverment may be of different types. The authority comes from God. Those are the propositions which all Catholics must agree with. The particular Thomistic view I take is actual far more congenial to a "democracy" than other permissable views. It is simply this, there is a natural law inclination to form in a society. It is necessary that such be governed, so there is an obligation to set up one, a few or many in charge. This does not require explicit consent, but only tacit, and the authority is not derived from the consent as from its source, rather it is usually determined by it. In extraordinary cases even that is not needed, as say in the papacy or when God Himself, in the Old Testament, chose rulers."<br />But to see someone who really knows his stuff, see if you cannot find Thomist 16, 71-81, 11 p. January 1953</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17883" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-16T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-16T22:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also from Diurturnum (I forgot how great that Encyclical is)<br />5. Indeed, very many men of more recent times, walking in the footsteps of those who in a former age assumed to themselves the name of philosophers,(2) say that all power comes from the people; so that those who exercise it in the State do so not as their own, but as delegated to them by the people, and that, by this rule, it can be revoked by the will of the very people by whom it was delegated. But from these, Catholics dissent, who affirm that the right to rule is from God, as from a natural and necessary principle.<br />6. It is of importance, however, to remark in this place that those who may be placed over the State may in certain cases be chosen by the will and decision of the multitude, without opposition to or impugning of the Catholic doctrine. And by this choice, in truth, the ruler is designated, but the rights of ruling are not thereby conferred. Nor is the authority delegated to him, but the person by whom it is to be exercised is determined upon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T22:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">saying "all authority comes from God" seems to me to be like answering "for the greater glory of God" to any historical question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17885" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-16T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-16T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is wrong with that? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17886" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T22:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nothing really. But then we say that bad rulers rule by God's authority, and then we have to distinguish between active and passive will, and it all gets very complicated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17887" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-16T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-16T22:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Benedict, when I was briefly in Catholic school (after my first foray into public school, but before my one semester of "homeschool"), I was taught the manna was bird shit. Literal bird shit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17888" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T22:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure it isn't a graham cracker. those we invented to "suppress carnal urges...."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17889" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-16T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-16T22:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . and by a mysterious twist of fate hit on the exact chemical constitution of the manna in the desert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17890" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-16T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-16T22:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">IDK if the pre-promised land Israelites were suppressing any carnal urges....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-16T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-16T23:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Didn't they have to eat crow or sumpin before the carnal urges ended? What's in store for us ya wonder, belly full and belly aching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-16T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-16T23:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So our candidates for the role are rock bread material, a super thin graham cracker, tofu, and bird shit. A promising start.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-16T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-16T23:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you could all do better if you cited some text up in here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17894" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-16T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-16T23:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17895" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-16T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-16T23:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe the manna was crystallized gnosis juice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-16T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-16T23:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna<br />Manna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Manna (Hebrew: מָן) or al-Mann wa al-Salwa (Arabic: المَنّ و السلوى, Kurdish: gezo, Persian: گزانگبین), sometimes or...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-16T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-16T23:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some say it was psychedelic...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ergot, perhaps?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T00:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17900" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T00:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heh, heh, heh. Quail turds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The wiki article is a good start.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17902" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T00:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some kind of entheogen would make sense, like the kykeon of the Eleusinian Mysteries.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If they let it sit, the good book says it became nasty and full of maggots right quick. Had to boil it so it would keep, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17904" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-17T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-17T00:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously it was polenta. Or grits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T00:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feta cheese?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17906" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Tim Hsiao" data-date="2014-09-17T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Hsiao at 2014-09-17T00:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This has been on my newsfeed for weeks. I've just noticed how many posts it has....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17907" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T00:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The taste was supposedly honey-like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17908" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T00:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haydock says it was not Arabian manna...hmm I don't even know what Arabian manna is!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17909" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T00:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T00:18:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Welcome, Tim Hsiao. TNET has drawn you here. TNET is always here.<br />What is TNET? Well, TNET is what gives your comments their power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Tim Hsiao" data-date="2014-09-17T00:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tim Hsiao at 2014-09-17T00:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cool story, bro.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Its just not natu'l. I say. Not many substance refrain from spoiling by maggots every seventh day. And only allow for a limited daily harvest. Daily bread from heaven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17912" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T00:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it does spoil if they try to save it for later without boiling it, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Timothy Gerard" data-date="2014-09-17T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Timothy Gerard at 2014-09-17T00:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aloysius Wilson Is TNET expecting children? Can it even reproduce?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T00:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">except Sabbath.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T00:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I just read New Advent. My Bible is unopened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T00:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How long was this the only food?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It is plain, moreover, that the pact they allege is openly a falsehood and a fiction." The antecedent of they? Rousseau? Hobbes? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">40 years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder where they went in those years, or did they just go nowhere, satisfied on eating ... Mana... And doing nothing.... And never getting to a body of water for fish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know it is analogically/ metaphorically significant, but it seems to challenge reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17921" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T00:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was never the only food. They had oil, flour, milk and meat. They also bought supplies from neighboring peoples.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T00:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T00:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They wandered. What were they punished for though? That is very interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you wander with 40 years worth of flour?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T01:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would seem they may have stopped for years at a time to replenish supplies, but 40 years worth of mana and wandering seems more reasonable/desirable to maintain the "story".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17925" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T01:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, they might have only had enough to make offerings with. I'm not certain about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17926" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T01:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"story"? I assume they weren't always moving but also not settling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T01:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - I thought they were punished for not believing that they could take over the promised land from its current occupants?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-17T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-17T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I wouldn't deny what you said. Although I think there is room for "consent of the governed" in those declarations. This is not opposed, simply speaking, to authority coming from God. <br />At least this is how I have always understood things. Perhaps I am wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17929" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T01:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T01:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. The article I recommended makes it clear that consent of the governed in some way plays a role in every Catholic theory here, including Aquinas's. Bossuet's was a certain kind of "designation" theory, whereas Suarez and Bellarmine had a kind of transference theory (and held that pure democracy was naturally presupposed). Whereas Aquinas held that pure democracy was not a natural form of government, and hence not presupposed by the rule of one, a few, or many. But still his view was not quite the same as Bossuet's.<br />And in anycase, I don't think such a mechanism is needed with say David. My understanding is that, for Aquinas, the actual establishment of a rule is required by the natural law, but if that rule is established directly by the source of authority, God, then the secondary causality of our politicking is unnecessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17930" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T01:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ETA: the other theory is the "transmission theory" Not transference. Transference mistates it<br />The problem, why we can reject the claim that the origin/source/basis of the authority is the consent of the governed, is threefold<br />1. Some authority is given in nature, as father over son. The father need not his son's consent in order to bind him in conscience<br />2. Some authority is given by God directly, as in the pope. The pope does not need the consent of the faithful to govern<br />3. Just as no individual merely by being a member of a common society can have authority over another of that same society, neither can any number of them, even a majority. Conversely, even in our system, even if the vast majority disagree, still those in governance have lawful authority for this or that act, and that authority may bind in conscience.<br />The analogy with fatherhood is apropos. The son is not free to choose whether to be governed or not. It is given is nature. Likewise with society. Now Bellarmine and Suarez recognized this, and proceeded to argue that therefore, since society needs a rule, that authority, given by God (or else it could not bind in conscience) is primordially and naturally present in the whole (pure democracy is a natural form). But Aquinas doesn't lend himself to this. Rule requires some form of hierarchy and unitive principle. And so this authority never belongs, even considered hypothetically, to the mass of the people, but still, by an obligation of the natural law, and often tacitly rather than openly (I think of Rick's rise to leadership, initially, in the Walking Dead...) they do transmit said authority to one, a few or many. Not give, but transmit. It only has the form, as it were, of authority when so transmitted and not before.<br />The designation theory, on the other hand, given by Bossuet would hold it something akin to how Cardinals select the pope. The merely designate the man to whom God grants authority. They in no sense transfer authority to him, as if it were theirs to grant, as indeed their entire authority derives from him<br />You are going to love this, Daniel Lendman, but Cajetan can be credited with introducing both the transmission and designation theories! He ascribed the former to royal authority, the latter to papal. Suarez and Bellarmine took the former to a different conclusion, though, that I hold is Aquinas's (and correct).<br />So we could say, if I am right, that the formation of political authority is like the establishment of human law. Natural law may dictate that one should drive on one side of the road (insofar as self-preservation leads to demanding certain safety rules). But this or that is determined by human law. In the family, the determination of authority is more or less already given, but in political society it pertains to "the consent of the governed" to give it its further determination, without which it does not exist (just as the rule to drive on one side cannot exist unless which side that is is determined).<br />Does this seem tenable?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17931" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear: you are saying that the consent of the governed at some level or at some time or in some manner must be given to make the one, the few, or the many the ultimate authority in a given regime?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17932" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T02:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, explicitly or tacitly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well with the exception of divine intervention. Just as with the papacy, God could just say "hey guys, Bob here will be your king. obey him"<br />Kind of causing the effect directly rather than through the natural processes there though...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you considering the consent of the governed to be a principle of lawful government, or merely a condition of it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More clearly - the way Matthew stated your position makes it sound like you are merely pointing out an obvious condition for government to exist. A people that will not be ruled, will not be ruled. Are you claiming further that the consent of the governed is a _cause_ of government?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17936" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T02:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17937" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T02:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, once established the acts of the sovereign remain binding in conscience (presuming they are not unjust laws, etc) as long as there is some ordering to the common good, even if a majority disagree with this or that law/act etc (practical difficulties aside). The common good is the justification for the acts of government. Consent of the governed for who will govern. God for the basis of its authority, even over the will of one who does not want to be governed.<br />It seems to me that once established, it is not like the new members, upon the age of reason, deliberate about consent. Natural law is that there be an authority, and an authority is already, in the case of an existing society, a given (at least normally).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T02:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not sure if you are saying authority is derived from the consent of the governed or not. Could you explain what the difference is between authority "derived by" and "determined by" the consent of those governed?<br />Does my question make sense? I might just be missing something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17939" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T02:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am denying that it is derived by the consent of the governed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17940" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T02:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That would imply that the authority, as such, was theirs to give or that it was constituted, as such, by their consent. Neither can be the case. Still, it does belong to them, in any of the Catholic theories, to give determination to the form of government, most frequently tacitly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T02:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, I see. Would that not make it a necessary condition rather than a principle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17942" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T03:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, Andrew Strain, The Neverending Thread is talking about transmission and designation theory!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17943" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T03:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T03:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz have you read Elliot Milco's piece on sovereignty? : http://the-josias.blogspot.co.at/.../introductory-notes...<br />The Josias: Notes on the Relation between Sovereignty and Commonwealth<br />THE-JOSIAS.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17944" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T03:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T03:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I haven't. But I shall</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17945" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-17T03:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-17T03:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The violence inherent in the system (i.e., in the formation of nation-states):<br />http://youtu.be/J7HpE4k5JLc<br />Noam Chomsky on Scottish Independence<br />Noam Chomsky on Scottish Independence : Statehood and Power. Recorded at MIT, Boston by Stuart Platt....<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17946" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T07:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T07:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">manna gnosis:<br />http://gnosticwarrior.com/the-philosophers-stone.html<br />The Philosophers Stone<br />For many ages our great ancestors had known about what we call today, "the philosophers stone." However it wasn't...<br />GNOSTICWARRIOR.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T08:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T08:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">manna is phosphorus....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17948" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-17T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-17T09:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who on this thread recommended The Historian? I've almost finished it. It's getting super scary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-17T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-17T09:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The end is SO scary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17950" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-17T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-17T09:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">edit: think I stole this from a facebook friend... http://www.karlremarks.com/.../we-give-scottish...<br />Karl reMarks: We Give the Scottish Independence Referendum the Middle...<br />KARLREMARKS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17951" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T09:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since God isn't speaking to us from pillars of fire, the problem in these debates over consent is what the more traditional types thundering against consent mean practically.<br />The practical options as regards deciding on a fundamental regime form are consent/persuasion or force/violence. Usually, of course, in the course of human events both are involved in foundings and revolutions, and force and violence seems to prevail. This is because many do not seem to care about consent or persuasion. Force and violence domestically are more often than not signs that one or both sides are seeking power, and not the public good.<br />To say that consent is not part of whether or not a given people chooses whether the one, the few, or the many ought to fundamentally govern seems to suggest that the wise rule by force, and politics then becomes an arms race between various groups claiming to be the wise that are justified in using force.<br />Liberalism begins by trying to mitigate the problem - consent being a barrier to force and violence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T09:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So the problem with ancien regime platitudes like "error has no rights" and "it is the office of the wise to rule" is that what truth and error are, and who is wise, is precisely what is in dispute in political life, and the more so they are in dispute, the more meaningless such propositions become. They solve nothing. Do we determine what error and wisdom are and how they ought to be implemented via something more akin to an arms race and force, or by something more akin to persuasion and conversion? That's the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17953" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle, by the way, who is the founding father of the common good and virtue and justice rightly understood being the end of the polis, was well aware of this and thus did not childishly repeat such mantras when he rolled up his sleeves to discuss politics. <br />He recognized, for instance, that even if the many (who assert that justice is equality) and the few (who assert that justice is inequality) had extreme and incorrect understandings of justice, one must give both views a say in an attempt to give the mean and the correct understanding of justice a fighting chance. This is also why he is so big on the existence of a middle class, so understanding of ostracism and attempts to keep the oligarchs in line no less than the mob. Etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Scotland giving consent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17955" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-17T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-17T10:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd say consent of the governed is virtually never given explicitly, unless consent means "we submit, please stop shooting us."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17956" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-17T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-17T10:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle is also great for understanding the overratedness of written constitutions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17957" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T10:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hamilton and Madison agreed with both of those points.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17958" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Andrew Strain" data-date="2014-09-17T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Strain at 2014-09-17T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I pretty much agree with Elliot Milco's piece on Sovereignty that Pater Edmund linked above. Moreover, the transmission theory of authority which holds that the entire political community is invested with political authority is in my opinion incompatible with the essential function of political authority:"the unification of action for the common good when the means to the common good is not uniquely determined" (Simon Phil. Of Dem. Gov.). If every member of the community is invested with authority there is no authority properly speaking because direction towards the common good is simply not possible in the vast majority of cases where the means to common good "is not uniquely determined." Any decision would have to be unanimous, but authority is intended to supply unanimity on account of the very impossibility of attaining it. (see Finnis Natural Law and Natural Rights 248-252)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17959" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Andrew Strain" data-date="2014-09-17T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andrew Strain at 2014-09-17T10:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also how is thing still alive? I stopped following it around the 8 or 9k mark.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right. But very few actual political bodies have ever meant that the consent must be unanimous. Usually it is a mixture of the majority and some outside understanding or standard of right and wrong and what is good, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17961" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T10:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why the modern nation-state of leviathanic proportions is so unnatural. what could consent even mean in a country of 300 million people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes means yes. (Lack of "yes" also means yes)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No means yes, if the person saying no lacks the power to defend their belief.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T11:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is wise is really not disputed. Indeed in democracy there is a long standing tradition of despising anyone who reminds us of inequalities. As to the rest of Matthew's remarks or rather snipes they are hardly worthy of response as if Aristotle were aware of the so called platitude that error has no rights - indeed nowhere mentioned by Joshua. Continue boxing shadows though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A whole nation saying no may mean yes if you confuse the wording on the ballot and half answer no/yes on accident</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T11:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what part of "polis" includes nation-state?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T11:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">translated "global village". It includes all nation states and continental unions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17968" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T12:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Global village is an interesting concept. It also brings up whether "nation-state" can have any meaning in a G8 world of global economy. <br />plus nation from "natio" or "birth" means very little when the mobility and scale of the state is such that, for example, I can live 2000 miles from the land of my birth and still be in the same "nation" (FWIW I consider myself an immigrant...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T12:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Taxes, politics, laws, flora, fauna and pronunciation different? Yeah you immigrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The old empires operated under subsidiarity, some moreso (and better imo) some less but all moreso than the modern state maybe even when we had the 10th amendment. This degree of centralization of lawmaking and administration is an historical first (cf. de Tocq. and schools with today's CC which is unprecedented again in scale and scope as 2 days ago confirmed to me by a life long public school teacher who finally just got out).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17971" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T12:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, then authority doesn't rest with the consent of the governed, but rather with the will of the ruling elite. <br />I suppose the centralization of power is kind of like trying to teach algebra to a class of 1000 junior high kids. The material may be the same, but the teacher would be incapable of tailoring anything to any student specifically, and would be ineffective.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17972" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T12:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">or to put it another way:<br />all political authority is a populist deceit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the irony. the irony. But nothing can be more ruinous to welcome in your social circle than the least attempt to undeceive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The system does not require your opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17975" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T12:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes it does. It requires enough of an opinion that rule is legitimate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we like our little lies but our big ones we will take to the grave and send others first early to theirs rather than let go our grasp.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-17T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-17T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honest question-- why do y'all hate the Common Core? Is it the principle of the thing, or the practice?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">both. Its the same as the old rot on a grander scale and there are testing aspects that are Orwellian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17979" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-17T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-17T13:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Louis CK hates it too. He had a lot of stuff on Twitter about it, from a while back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-17T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-17T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are the Orwellian testing aspects?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even many of the most classicly denominated schools adhere to the modern curricula with better material and a couple additions. Even the renegades conform with unquestionable docility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17982" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T13:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since the primary common good is peace, there has to be a certain level of implicit consent for the common good to be preserved. But authority comes from the common good, and from consent only insofar as it is a subordinate element in the common good. I agree with Andrew Strain on the incoherence of the transmission theory. Moreover, Pius X in Notre Charge explicitly rejects the strong version of the transmission theory: <br />«The Sillon places public authority primarily in the people, from whom it then flows into the government in such a manner, however, that it continues to reside in the people. But Leo XIII absolutely condemned this doctrine in his Encyclical “Diuturnum Illud” on political government in which he said: <br />“Modern writers in great numbers, following in the footsteps of those who called themselves philosophers in the last century, declare that all power comes from the people; consequently those who exercise power in society do not exercise it from their own authority, but from an authority delegated to them by the people and on the condition that it can be revoked by the will of the people from whom they hold it. Quite contrary is the sentiment of Catholics who hold that the right of government derives from God as its natural and necessary principle.” <br />Admittedly, the Sillon holds that authority - which first places in the people - descends from God, but in such a way: “as to return from below upwards, whilst in the organization of the Church power descends from above downwards.” <br />But besides its being abnormal for the delegation of power to ascend, since it is in its nature to descend, Leo XIII refuted in advance this attempt to reconcile Catholic Doctrine with the error of philosophism. For, he continues: “It is necessary to remark here that those who preside over the government of public affairs may indeed, in certain cases, be chosen by the will and judgment of the multitude without repugnance or opposition to Catholic doctrine. But whilst this choice marks out the ruler, it does not confer upon him the authority to govern; it does not delegate the power, it designates the person who will be invested with it.” <br />For the rest, if the people remain the holders of power, what becomes of authority? A shadow, a myth; there is no more law properly so-called, no more obedience. »</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, I don't quite get the distinction between "designating" and "delegating" in the Leo XIII quote above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nationalized database for regular computerized tests that tailorize questions according to answers of previous questions. . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read it as delegating=transmission theory; designating=designation theory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17986" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T13:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nina Rachele: that Scotland article is great. I loved this bit: "This rivalry for long manifested itself through the competition between the two main football clubs, the Protestant Rangers and the Catholic Celtic, until Rangers were hilariously relegated to the third division in 2012 as a result of financial troubles." That was such a great day: http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/.../sometime-miracles-do.../<br />Sometimes miracles do happen....<br />The first line of the Wikipedia entry for a certain Football team, "Rangers Football Club was a football club based...<br />EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17987" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't it kind of a cop out to say all authority comes from God? <br />"why is it raining?" - God wills it<br />"why is it not raining?" Deus vult</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, both designation theory and transmission theory agree authority comes from God. The disagreement is about how that works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">everything comes from God. Case closed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but seriously, if the "people" or whatever can designate a ruler, then they can designate another, how is that different from delegating authority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17991" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T13:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">One difference is that on transmission theory revolutions are easier to justify.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Delegating implies the authority comes from the people. The authority to rule comes from God. That does not mean all rule is legitmate. It is only authority to make just laws and promote the common good not its opposite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure I understand the transmission theory though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure I see a difference (yet)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17995" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-17T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-17T13:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another difference is this: on the one account (transmission theory) delegation is of the essence of political authority, whereas on the other account (designation theory) designation is one of many ways by which the ruler can receive authority (cf. Milco).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17996" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To designate is simply to point out who shall have the power. Designation can occur by law, by a king, by nobles, by the people in democracy or in popularly elected monarchy. Unless i confuse it for the tacit consent of the governed but I dont think that is the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And God Himself can designate as with David who was chosen by the people as well. It occurs in all regimes but is not a transmission of authority itself. That comes from God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_17998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I read, God gave the Israelites a king they wanted, one "like other nations", Saul. And when that flopped, He gave them a king after His own heart. He doesn't force his will upon us but gives us what we pray for. Sometimes you wish He weren't so accomodating </p>
</li>
<li id="post_17999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">however, Pater, even if there were another way of ruling, lack of the consent of the governed makes for a de facto loss of authority, wherever that authority may have come from.<br />the people can always march the sovereign to the guillotine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no. Not if merely designated. Leo refutes this opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so if one were to march Louis XVI to the guillotine, he still has authority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18002" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T14:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who ought to judge whether a regime form is looking to the common good? If the King doesn't look to it, the people grin and bear it until when, exactly?<br />Funny thing about the common good - it implies a deep or ultimate equality. For it must be truly common to all. Utilitarianism's greatest good for the greatest number doesn't cut it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18003" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T14:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Put another way - when is it legitimate for the one or the few to force the many into a regime form they do not desire?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18004" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T14:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">shut up and pay your taxes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-17T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-17T14:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one disputes, obviously, that the common good is the goal and this ought to trump the mere will of the one, few, or the many. <br />Our own regime acknowledges this, and our politics are often about when majority rule goes wrong.<br />But the question is how to arrange things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">one or few? No one is saying that or implying. And what of the many or those who write the laws? [To 3 comments above.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Often the change of a corrupt regime comes from outside. As Cyrus to Babylon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-17T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-17T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what about Cardinal Burke's change in position...?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wall scrubbed and put in edit. Not to worry. Daneels will replace Burke at the synod.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18010" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-17T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-17T16:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re: Burke. It is dismaying news. Without wanting to overreact, it makes me want to put my head down, focus on my own spiritual life, and just try to ignore what goes on in Rome altogether (as far as that is possible for a practicing Catholic, of course). It would be a disgusting travesty if he is not able to participate in the Synod, while Kasper and his anti-Catholic views are paraded around like a hero.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?? I know little of Cardinal Kasper, so I just read up what I could find, but I am not sure why you are critical of him. Is it the not ending the excommunication of Pius X bisohps (due to the biships denial of the jewish holocost), the desire to bring divorced/remarried back to the sacraments, or something else?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-17T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-17T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are better links, but here's a quick one:<br />http://dailycaller.com/.../the-scandal-of-cardinal-kasper/<br />The Scandal Of Cardinal Kasper<br />Cardinal Walter Kasper has become the man of the hour within the Roman Catholic Church. With the...<br />DAILYCALLER.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks... I'll check it out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">divorced/remarried back to the sacraments? what does that mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If a Catholic has divorced and remarried civilly, if they are ever allowed to return to receiving communion without the "no sex" requirement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-17T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-17T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is a 2-minute video of Burke on Kasper:<br />http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/.../cardinal-burke...<br />Creative Minority Report: Cardinal Burke: Cardinal Kasper in 'Error'<br />Thank Thank Thank God we have Cardinals like Cardinal...<br />CREATIVEMINORITYREPORT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18017" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes Jeffie, that's the definition of marriage that the Church has always taught.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As long as the divorced spouse is alive, the remarried person is barred from communion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18019" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T17:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, any one with mortal sin is barred from communion. why add sacrilege to fornication (or adultery)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-17T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-17T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Burke doesn't really get what Kasper is trying to say. Perhaps he should learn to speak German first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I know. It appears Kasper was making an aruement for "mercy" on those that wish to return to the sacrements while remarried and "living in sin"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18022" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T17:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If we believe in the real presence, and we believe in mortal sin, there is really only one conclusion. <br />Unless one thinks communion is like a badge of honor that has only to do with oneself and not with God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-17T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-17T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was making a pastoral claim (Kasper is) not a claim about Canon Law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18025" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T17:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">if you separate the pastoral from the theological, then you're asking for trouble</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am constantly amazed that the number of people in the communion line exceeds the number of people in the confession line</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18027" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T17:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">One is much easier to approach in the state of sin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but with no merit in it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18029" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T17:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not just no merit, but condemnation. <br />Kasper's position is incoherent. No surprise, he stopped defending the Catholic faith, if he ever did, years ago.<br />You don't help people by encouraging them to damn themselves through sacrilegious communion. There is no hope, grace, joy of the Eucharist in any of this. He talks of that, but that can only be true of incidental aspects, of "feelings" and "self affirmation"; here, affirmation in their sin. Don't worry, you are fine where you are, we don't exclude you; but God will, for all eternity. And we think sending the opposite message hear is pastoral?<br />How many Cardinals, bishops and even popes much go to hell for all eternity, before they learn that a shepherds hook is there to bring wayward sheep back, if necessary against their liking, to the straight and narrow, and not to be dragged by the sheep.<br />If Kasper prevails one of two things will happen...the Church's teaching of marriage will further be rejected, and this will be seen as part and parcel of that; and we will be accessories to the sins of many, as we encourage sacrilegious communion.<br />Kasper is clear enough to understand. He doesn't believe, so such "pastoral" solutions are easy for him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18030" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T17:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is with this opposition of pastoral to canon law, and the avoidance of the underlying theological basis of the same?<br />Newsflash, pastoral law could be another name for canon law...to oppose to two is ludicrous. Kasper is at the very least rejecting canon law...the pastoral label is being used the way Averoists were alleged to use philosophy. Oh the world is eternal, philosophically, but theological it is not. The whole "two truth" claim, but this time as a cover to excuse sin and deny Church doctrine. Oh, I am only pastorally counselling the aiding the condemnation of souls through sacrilege, but canonically....how absurd must we get?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-17T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-17T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Denn mit welcherlei Gericht ihr richtet, werdet ihr gerichtet werden; und mit welcherlei Maß ihr messet, wird euch gemessen werden." (Matt. 7:2)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18032" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T19:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church has repeatedly judged that divorce and remarriage are grave sins and an impediment to receiving communion. I'm not judging - that's the Catholic Church. <br />and the idea that a pastoral claim is not a theological claim is at best misguided, at worst, total bs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18033" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T19:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I take that back. In all cases total BS, at worst grave sin for leading the faithful into worse sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18034" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-17T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-17T19:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I am uncomfortable when proponents of controversial positions take a Scripture passage and invoke it talismanically."- Ed Peters.<br />He said it better than I. By condoning their behavior, you become an accessory to their sin. I am not saying we should bring back the sentence of excommunication non-senentia et tolerati that was imposed on those who, through attempted bigamy, attempted to marry a second person after abandoning common life with their spouse, let alone subject them to excommunication vitandi where they do get barred from even setting a foot inside of a Church and all except close relations and those with necessary civil business are barred from even saying a word to them.<br />But should we not uphold the discipline of protecting the sacrament? And to elide over their adulterous attempt at simultaneous bigamy, because that is what it is...bigamist, adulterers, abandonment of common life with their actual spouse.... by calling them "suffering"...this is not helping them. It is like affirming the cancer of a patient who is suffering. How does that help? <br />No my version of charity is a bit more in line with scripture here...hot coals and all that. And to claim that some hidden gnosis exists in Kasper because he spoke German! Hah!<br />Do be charitable to these who, mocking marriage enter into false unions, who, maybe realizing the grave evil they have done, are unwilling to renounce evil. Yes, circumstances of their adulterous union, e.g. children, are real issues. Pastoral solicitude may be for them to live under the same roof, as brother and sister. Anything else is SIN. And to counsel anything else is to take the place of Satan and place yourself on the path of hellfire. <br />Can we be serious? Kasper, I know, has no fear of the Lord here, but I for one do. That is the stakes here, not someone's feelings about the Church, but whether the Church brings that person to God...we don't do that by ignoring the cancer of sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18035" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-17T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-17T20:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A further case for the admission of remarried divorcees to the sacraments is argued in terms of mercy. Given that Jesus himself showed solidarity with the suffering and poured out his merciful love upon them, mercy is said to be a distinctive quality of true discipleship. This is correct, but it misses the mark when adopted as an argument in the field of sacramental theology. The entire sacramental economy is a work of divine mercy and it cannot simply be swept aside by an appeal to the same. An objectively false appeal to mercy also runs the risk of trivializing the image of God, by implying that God cannot do other than forgive. The mystery of God includes not only his mercy but also his holiness and his justice. If one were to suppress these characteristics of God and refuse to take sin seriously, ultimately it would not even be possible to bring God’s mercy to man. Jesus encountered the adulteress with great compassion, but he said to her “Go and do not sin again” (Jn 8:11). God’s mercy does not dispense us from following his commandments or the rules of the Church. Rather it supplies us with the grace and strength needed to fulfil them, to pick ourselves up after a fall, and to live life in its fullness according to the image of our heavenly Father." - Card. Muller, Prefect of the CDF</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not like thinking pulling a "Henry VIII", of murdering one wife to marry another is more forgivable than divorce and remarriage. <br />But I guess it is what it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-17T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-17T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Full text here: http://www.news.va/.../archbishop-muller-care-of...<br />Archbishop Müller: Care of remarried divorcees must not be reduced to the...<br />NEWS.VA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18038" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T20:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wouldn't it be better to also provide the tools and resources to discover when annulment is possible for the first marriage and how to complete the process?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18039" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T20:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Henry never did murder his true wife. Let second "wives" beware. But haven't we sacreligious communions enough without more open false sanction?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-17T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-17T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He sort of murdered Catherine of Aragon by neglect, and he straight up murdered Catherine Howard, who was his true wife, since he married her well after Catherine of Aragon was dead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18041" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-17T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-17T20:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I'm Henry the eighth, I am. Henry the eighth I am, I am. I got married to the widow next door, she's been married seven times before..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine perhaps died of her penances but Professor Wiki relates that it was cancer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18043" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T21:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you murder your wife, I don't think you can contract another marriage, but maybe that's only if you conspired with the future "wife" to murder the former</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18044" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-17T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-17T21:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just saying, he was only a tiny shade nicer to C of A than the ones he did murder, and probably only because her uncle was Charles V.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18045" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T21:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">see what happens when people aren't allowed to divorce and re-marry? they behead their wives and start their own church. Look at the pastoral need!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just object to Jeff. Since Henry VIII did not repent, no divorcee should? It doesn't quite follow if you see what I mean. C of A was raised to point out one flaw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18047" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T21:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a happy marriage. I love my wife. I want to grow incredibly old with her. (This counts as public record, right)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best part about the church are the keys. What is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven. There are no null annulments once granted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing to worry about, Liz. We just speculatin'.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18050" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-17T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-17T21:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't imagine the position of someone divorced and remarried. I don't want to. But part of me feels like it is people that stopped practicing the faith for a period of time, did whatever, and now that they are coming back, expect that there is no problem with how they behaved in the intermediary time. Frankly, you can't have your cake and eat it too. there are consequences for everyone's actions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. I anulled the anullment comment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T21:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liz's phone died, she can't reply. I guess I am free to marry another phone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-17T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-17T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anullment declares something never was: no binding or loosing involved. That right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-17T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-17T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Quinan</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18055" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Daniel Quinan" data-date="2014-09-17T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Quinan at 2014-09-17T22:26:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, that's right. <br />Also, it's high time for this:<br />https://i.imgflip.com/bmx4t.jpg<br />I.IMGFLIP.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-17T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-17T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the problem here? Is this Cardinal actually saying that those who are in the state of mortal can receive communion? Or, is he saying that more needs to be done to help them come back to the church? I see no problem, assuming he's sticking to doctrine. "Liz"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18057" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Quinan - read the revised status. Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18058" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have another serious question for TNET. Which one was in the very center of the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18059" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, that correct answer to that question is: who gives a shit. (I'm drinking.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18060" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was a rather large G&T...but now it is sadly almost gone...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I want to go to there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18062" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(75, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T01:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would just like to point out how the crusades were a failure because the Christians ultimately failed to liberate the Holy Land.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18063" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a topic: Caring about the demotion of Cardinal Burke or the opinions of Cardinal Kaspar makes you a modernist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18064" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T01:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is possible that Burke, whether intentionally or no, is part of the problem in the curia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET needs one:<br />http://www.youtube.com/embed/Qiw3vVy_eN8?autoplay=1<br />Office Space - Jump to Conclusions<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18066" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To answer your question, Aaron, I give a shit. You honking great pockmark, you pickled herring, you pinhead. Like drinking is an excuse to be an ignoramus...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does anyone a little less dismissive think about the possibility that they may have been one and the same tree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's quite ambiguous in Genesis, which makes it fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T01:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak I have never thought about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T01:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know Augustine thinks they are different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes he does. I'm wondering if he's right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18072" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm always surprised few people seem to tackle the question of the trees and what the hell is going on with them and what their names even mean, myself.<br />In the older authors, they seem to speak authoritatively about it in often in deeply unsatisfying ways - and the issue often gets far too quick and easy a pass.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you think it would mean for it to be the same tree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18075" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the simple question: what the hell is wrong with such knowledge? What does it even mean? And why a tree relating to life? Etc. It all seems very complicated to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18076" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To paraphrase Woody Allen, how the hell should I know about the trees in the Garden of Eden. I don't know how the can opener works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I'm not entirely sure. I haven't teased out the possibilities completely yet. It would mean that one tree might have two aspects of its consumption that could not be simultaneously encountered by Adam - the conferring of wisdom and the conferring of immortality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18078" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why a tree and a fruit? Ye shall know them by their fruits. Curses the tree that withers. Etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18080" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I know is that I'd like a wee but more Gin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18081" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I certainly think it's a bit of a riddle. Another interesting thing is that the properties of the tree of knowledge of good and evil are mirrored in explicit references to King David's and King Solomon's personal piety. They are both said to be able "to discern good and evil," which seems to be an almost angelic power. Why was it forbidden for Adam to acquire those same powers of discernment?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T01:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't mean that the fruit would have been forbidden forever -- just until it was ripe perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18083" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T01:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, maybe it is better to start with some of the more basic questions, then. Why is knowledge a problem? Why fruit? Why all those images?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T01:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like the gift of immortality. It was to be delayed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18085" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And doesn't knowledge being associated with all this strike us as odd given the focus on contemplative and speculative as higher than practical/ethical in our circles.<br />In both Solomon's case and here, the focus is not on that, it seems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18086" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I'll see you guys later. I'm heading over the the fundamentalist TNET to discuss whether the trees in the Garden of Eden had rings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18087" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T01:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T01:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why does man have to know evil? (know good yes, but why evil?) It isn't the tree of knowledge in general.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18088" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm back. They're talking about this, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why does it appear that the serpent tells the truth about the tree of knowledge of good and evil while Yahweh does not? God says if they eat of it, they will surely die. The serpent says no you won't, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil. Then they eat the fruit, and they don't die, and Yahweh is all like behold, they have become like us, knowing good and evil! What's going on there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18090" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But they do die . . . later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the problem that they take contemplative seeing and knowing too far?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron Gigliotti - this is cool:<br />http://www.theatlantic.com/.../30-years-of-coens.../380220/<br />30 Years of Coens: "The Big Lebowski"<br />Raymond Chandler in a bowling alley<br />THEATLANTIC.COM|BY CHRISTOPHER ORR</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah Aaron, but Yahweh explicitly says they will die on the day they eat it. And they don't. Unless we take "day" to not be literal, which might be the case I guess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T01:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read that! Loved the discussion of Coen Brothers references in Lebowski.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T01:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would it mean to take contemplative seeing and knowing too far? Isn't the goal to know God Himself? How much farther could one go?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18096" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T01:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Die === as in mortal sin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18097" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T01:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Benedict - take that to mean that NOW they are sure to die (upon eating eventual death is set in motion).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's what Augustine says...but are you guys sure that's not stretching the meaning of the text too far?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if they had then eaten from the Tree of Life, their sentence of being in mortal sin would have been immortalized. So putting them out and closing the garden was for their own good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And weren't they going to die anyway, as mortal beings as such do...?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18101" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Augustine, modernist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18103" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They could have entered eternal life without dying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah that's an interesting point, Jody. I had not thought of that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The one about them then eating from the Tree of Life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like Our Lady did (fall asleep in the Lord)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18107" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T02:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine also said that to sing "On Eagles Wings" is to pray thrice. And, he didn't kneel after the Agnus Dei.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The priest who gave our TOB class the other night said they even glowed in the garden. Interesting. Not sure of his source for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18109" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That would have made finding them easy. And seeing when they had sinned even easier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Huh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18111" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T02:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/OpaZU4Q3Ubk<br />Now young Skywalker you will die HD<br />:)<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18112" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just like saying that Adam literally tried to cover his ass after he sinned... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18113" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine's favorite song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNXqjwh8is<br />Gather Us In<br />Gather Us In by Marty Haugen If you like this song, please show the artist appreciation by purchasing it: http://itunes....<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18114" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll have to ask him his source. He was a student of Dr Waldstein. Maybe Pater Edmund knows this info. ??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18115" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T02:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or rather, is the problem how they came about the knowledge? What would have happened if they had simply asked God for the fruit?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel I wonder about that too. As if the fruit itself could have been had at the asking, but was not to be seized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18117" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.ccwatershed.org/.../Dan-Schutte-Mass-of.../<br />Why Can't We Use Secular Music During Mass?<br />Listen to these audio files. Is there any difference...<br />CCWATERSHED.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My sense is that knowing good and evil, here, means more something like, being the measure of what is good and evil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18119" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off to bed. I'm sure when I return this topic will have morphed into teacher salaries or homily rankings or something of the sort.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel you said above "Isak, maybe it is better to start with some of the more basic questions, then. Why is knowledge a problem? Why fruit? Why all those images?"<br />Could you maybe elaborate on your own question? Why do you think that might help solve some riddles?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I would love to, but I must be off to class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But when does "knowing" ever mean "being the measure of?!?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18123" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T02:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh be sure to listen to the "My Little Pony" liturgy I posted above. Some things can't be 'unheard'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not to be aggressive at all, I'm just conveying excitement in my digital speech.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Darn I will await your return eagerly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18126" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well if everyone is going to bed maybe I will engage myself in scintillating conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T02:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLyxmD_UAK4<br />that's not true. that's IMPOSSIBLE<br />it's about damn time.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-18T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-18T02:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET. Good times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18129" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michaella Pape" data-date="2014-09-18T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michaella Pape at 2014-09-18T02:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, I'd not read that article before now and that is an absolutely horrifying similarity!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#ponygnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T02:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, the esoteric truths of modern worship music laid bare...TNET is pleased</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-18T03:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-18T03:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't actually think that "the garden" is one physical place and not a metaphysical state of man?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18134" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T03:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T03:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why not both?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why not the tree as both real tree in the middle of a garden and as a cosmic axis in the center of all things?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18136" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-18T04:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-18T04:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So who let TENT theme of endless talking about TAC get diverted to the Thomism discussion group? I thought TENT had a monopoly on that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18137" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T07:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T07:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just in case this was bothering anyone else, Charles V was Catherine of Aragon's nephew, not her uncle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T09:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When you have read and carefully listened to these things, you shall know what God bestows on such as rightly love Him, being made [as you are] a paradise of delight, presenting in yourselves a tree bearing all kinds of produce and flourishing well, being adorned with various fruits. For in this place the tree of knowledge and the tree of life have been planted; but it is not the tree of knowledge that destroys— it is disobedience that proves destructive. Nor truly are those words without significance which are written, how God from the beginning planted the tree of life in the midst of paradise, revealing through knowledge the way to life, and when those who were first formed did not use this [knowledge] properly, they were, through the fraud of the Serpent, stripped naked. For neither can life exist without knowledge, nor is knowledge secure without life. Wherefore both were planted close together.<br />from The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, 2nd century.<br />It seems like the early early Church tradition separates the two trees.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18139" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gregory of Nyssa argues that they are one tree (if memory serves).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, please. It's TNET. And you speak like someone from the ancient days of TNET. Time have changed. Many epochs have passed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18141" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T10:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">All right this has been bugging me: why the T in TNET? The original acronym was simply NET. Isn't it bad form to include the definite article in acronyms? TUSA? Anyway acronyms are evil; why can't people just tag The Neverending Thread it doesn't take much longer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18142" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T10:42:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET sounds more sci-fi than NET. Like that system that brings on the age of robots in Terminator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18143" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T10:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The worst acronym of all is LOTR. I just hate it; "of" AND "the" in an acronym?! By that logic the USA should be called TUSOA.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18144" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T10:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The internet: it even destroys proper acronyms. But TNET does have a ring to it, I have to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Toosoah" has a ring to it. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18146" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T10:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NET is ambiguous, infected with modernism. Just read Pascendi. TNET has a gnostic signifiance for the initiated, viz. those over 1000 posts. . . . mostly Straussians i think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18147" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T10:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I meant the sci-fi comment in support of TNET as our acronym, but Pater Edmund has a solid point about acronyms generally.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18148" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T10:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about tNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oooh, that's even better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, I was looking in Gregory of Nyssa this morning, but I couldn't find the citation. Do you remember what it is from?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T10:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[t]NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's in the Sermons on the Song of Songs I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18153" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Found it (Gregory of Nyssa anticipating Isak Benedict's point): «If we hear that paradise was planted by God and that the tree of life is in the center of paradise, we seek to learn from the One who reveals the hidden mysteries of which plants is the Father both the husbandsman and the vine dresser, and how it is possible that there are two trees in the middle of paradise, one of salvation and the other of destruction. For the exact center as in the drawing of a circle has only one point. However, if another center is somehow placed beside or added to that first one, it is necessary that another circle be added for that center so that the former one is no longer in the middle.» http://www.lectio-divina.org/index.cfm...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18154" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T11:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#mathgnosis<br />what if circles in the Garden are non-Euclidean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18155" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T11:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18156" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T11:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it is elliptical geometry, there are two "centers"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">«There was only one paradise. How, then, does the text say that each tree is to be considered separately while both are in the middle? And the text, which reveals that all of God's works are exceedingly beautiful, implies that the deadly tree is different from God's. How is this so? Unless a person contemplates the truth through philosophy, what the text says here will be either inconsistent or a fable.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18158" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T11:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've no dog in this fight. <br />So the "trees" are one tree considered under separate notions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18159" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can you have no dog in this fight?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia--admit that you stole tNET from tMG. Those who know, know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18161" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't like dog fighting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18162" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-18T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-18T11:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks of SkyNet from Terminator when they hear TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the tree needn't be evil in itself nor permanently forbidden. And why couldn't they both be in the center next to each other?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The disobedience brought death spiritual first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18165" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I admit and deny nothing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18166" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-18T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-18T11:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The text of Genesis suggests to me that they are different:<br />"Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever'" (Gen. 3:22, RSVCE)<br />The language here seems to imply that they have not yet eaten of the tree of life and that it is different from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God places an angel to guard the tree of life. It is my understanding that this is done to man's benefit, since if he ate of the tree of life while spiritually dead, he would live forever in a state of death (or something like that). It seems analogous to abstaining from the Eucharist (the Fruit of the Tree of Life/the Cross) when in the state of mortal sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18167" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T11:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, Sean, it certainly looks that way from this<br />et ait: Ecce Adam quasi unus ex nobis factus est, sciens bonum et malum: nunc ergo ne forte mittat manum suam, et sumat etiam de ligno vitae, et comedat, et vivat in aeternum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18168" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-18T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-18T11:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As to knowledge of good and evil being a bad thing, wouldn't knowledge of evil detract from their freedom for righteousness? That is, if we understand freedom as the ability to do good, then would not a knowledge of evil perhaps be unnecessary to a knowledge and accomplishment of the good? It would in a certain sense be a knowledge of non-being (whatever that would mean), which cannot be said to be necessary for knowledge of being/good. I think Adam and Eve had knowledge of the good (maybe just not as such?) before eating the fruit.<br />It could also be that the knowledge spoken of is an experiential knowledge. They now have knowledge of good and evil because whereas before they only had experiential knowledge of good, they now have experiential knowledge of both, since to contradict the divine command was an evil. But perhaps that is a voluntaristic reading of the nature of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18169" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T11:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody Haaf Garneau: I think the glow-in-the-dark Adam and Eve thing is a Kabbalistic tradition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18170" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T11:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Above Matthew J. Peterson wrote: "Who ought to judge whether a regime form is looking to the common good? [...] Put another way - when is it legitimate for the one or the few to force the many into a regime form they do not desire?"<br />Maybe we can look at some concrete examples. 1) The anti-pope Anacletus II had the support of the majority of the cardinals, with only 16 belonging to the "sanior pars," which elected Innocent II.<br />2) The supression of the popular uprisings of 1848 in Bohemia and elsewhere.<br />3) The Spanish Civil War.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater-- are you suggesting that church government operates on the same principles as state government? Otherwise I don't think the anti-pope example is helpful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(different topic): Where do you people get your news about the Vatican from these days? Our priest said something weird at mass this morning about what Pope Francis is going to do (re: 2nd marriages and communion). I do hate rumours in the days of the internet. <br />And how is it even possible for consider communion for people who are in a "remarriage" situation (i.e.: first marriage is not annulled)? Has anyone made sense of this possibility? I am shocked at the comments (and ignorance) on the Catholic news sites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As discussed earlier, it doesn't seem possible without a dramatic change in doctrine, not just practice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And is that even possible? (to change doctrine)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T12:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">shouldn't be</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apparently, if we find this offensive, we are pharisees. (according to the priest this morning)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what is the Pope actually saying? (Not some cardinal or bishop or commission)? Humanae Vitae showed that the pope can pull good out of evil suggestions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18178" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-18T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-18T12:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's probably the humanae Vitae situation. Never an intention to change it but some clergy thought there was so we ended up in a mess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what really ticks me off is having a priest tell me what the pope will do. How does he know? Where is he getting his info? (I need more facts)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, the tree of knowledge of good and evil woudl, by its name, seem to provide practical knowledge: i.e. knowledge about good and evil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T12:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is going to be - strike that - has become ugly. Stick to the daily rosary. The Faith of many will be tested. [Jody]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, what do you mean? Your prophecy of doom is vague.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As befits prophecies of doom, I suppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We've had a tidal wave of daily bad news. It's unbelievable: friends, family, the Vatican etc. A ten year old at our monastery who just fell to his death, couples breaking up, a fire in our house and delinquent contractors etc. on top of the daily craziness out of Rome et al.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I AM NOT the only one saying it. And lots more i could say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is feeding the Koolaid to the guy on the Thomism discussion forum? Yikes! Maybe we should cross post over here some of the themes. (should women be allowed to vote? are husbands allowed to physically discipline their wives?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's the Thomism forum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Nutley" data-date="2014-09-18T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Nutley at 2014-09-18T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">re: jody<br />1. people shouldn't be allowed to vote<br />2. women are people<br />C. ... I'm not going to say it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Is it supposed to be the end times or something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The upcoming synod is going to cause great confusion. But yeah, a chastizement has begun already. No need for prophecy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have great hope for the upcoming synod.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18192" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just to check-- everyone on TNET thinks women should have the vote, right? I mean, assuming they think there should be a vote at all?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18193" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">strike that. I don't actually want to know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have hope for the Church and in Our Lady. The synod not so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18195" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-18T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-18T13:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I lean heavily towards the one vote per household position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, how about not all women and not all men as a response? But I am not a fan of democracy. It is inherently unstable and lots of other things. Hoi polloi are not great masters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18197" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have that in my household, Daniel, but I'm the one who gets the vote</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18198" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The one vote per household model is actually prejudicial against family units, since it gives two married people the same vote as an unmarried person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18199" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But anyway, I SAID I didn't want to know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(82, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, the one vote per household position is dumb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18201" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And also, my husband doesn't get to vote because he's Canadian, in case I gave the wrong impression</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18202" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what the rest of this conversation has been, and I refuse to press 'previous comments' but a lecturer at the ITI once proposed that votes be counted by household but weighted by the number of people represented, including kids. So you (Samantha) and Caleb would have one vote that counted for 5 whereas I would have 1. Interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18203" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T13:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one votes in my household. We are on indefinite strike.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18204" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That presupposes unity of views within the family that doesn't always exist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18205" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18206" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I thought the idea of acknowledging that the vote of parents represents a larger portion of the populace than themselves was intriguing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18207" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hi Katherine. : )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18208" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do like that aspect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18209" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a better system for getting from TAC to LAX now than back in our day? (that is, the system of getting a ride from a Teichert)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-18T13:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Roadrunner Shuttle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-18T13:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">www.rrshuttle.com<br />Roadrunner Shuttle -Los Angeles, LAX, LGB, BUR, SBA.<br />RRSHUTTLE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18212" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. Ha ha, that was the system, you're right. His (J. Teichert's) wife is a treasure, btw. Anyhow, I drive, though poorly, and only when not in class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18213" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But roadrunner, yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18214" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I loved being a courier. Taking them to LAX over the rivers of highway, and then coming back myself up the one. Stop at Neptune's Net for a beer and a bite all by me lonesome. Good times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18215" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just changed the status above to protect myself, but I guess I'm almost 20,000 comments too late. The judgers have already judged.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18216" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope you aren't facebook friends with anyone who might be on a search comittee anytime, oh, ever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unfortunately...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In another thread on that FB Thomism group, someone just said in all seriousness that men should be able to corporeally punish their wives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Patrick X. Gardner said: "Ray Rice Theology."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18220" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is this THomism group?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18222" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's it, I'm going for a run before I read any more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18223" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good for you, but did you get my message?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you seem to have messenger turned off</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18225" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(P.s. in cas anyone is wondering, that person is NOT my brother Patrick.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.facebook.com/groups/TeamAquinas/686322341452314/<br />Brian OrtizThomism Discussion Group<br />I hope this is not terribly off-topic.<br />So... there are ex-St. Thomas Aquinas College students at my university. TAC is a liberal arts college in Santa Paula. Th...<br />See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-18T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-18T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oops..., on now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18228" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T14:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^[the discussion group link, not Katherine's comment] This is why we can't have nice things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18229" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T13:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some people have no idea what it means to be a Thomist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For reals quote from that thread:<br />"As for corporal punishment. I’ve never hidden the belief, but I don’t go out of my way to be abrasive. I brought it up to a close female friend not long ago, and convinced her of my position. What kind of punishment? Slapping or spanking, probably."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18231" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T13:56:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">50 Shades of Thomism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-18T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-18T13:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yikes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T14:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">voting is stupid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18234" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T14:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would refer anyone with a strong stomach for language to South Park season 8 episode 8</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18235" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T15:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't remember voting for a candidate for national office and not feeling sick to my stomach afterwards. I would say "a candidate for any office" only occasionally I don't know much about candidates for local offices, and so don't know what I've done.<br />I maintain that ignorance is the only way one may feel anything less than utter revulsion upon voting for any of the presidential candidates (in primaries or otherwise) of my voting life time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18236" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T15:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't blame me, *I* voted for Kodos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18237" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always felt pretty good voting Republican in New Jersey, because no one I voted for had the slightest hope of winning office. Except Chris Christie, that one time. Ah well, the other guy was a crook, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I voted for Kang....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18239" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm voting for Dukakis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18240" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joseph Ferrier" data-date="2014-09-18T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joseph Ferrier at 2014-09-18T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you're voting for someone who makes you sick to your stomach, you're doing it wrong. Very wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18241" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T15:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak-- is your profile picture a TNET reference? I'm impressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18242" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T15:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#metagnosis #alltheladiesbelikedayyyum</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18243" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">#profilegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18244" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Voting is never about anything other than the best possible. Practical politics is nothing other than answering the "compared to what" or "compared to who" question. So don't let it bother you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18245" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you did think your candidate was wonderful and perfect - well, then I would be worried.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18246" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Some people drink Pepsi, some people drink Coke, the wacky morning DJ says democracy's a joke..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Every time I vote my dad calls me up and asks who I voted for and then he yells at me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18248" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We need to get rid of the puritanical view of politics. What can best be done? Then you hold your nose and vote/do it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18249" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">NEVER! I only vote for the best. See also Ivan Karamozov</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18250" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say more, Joseph Ferrier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18251" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T15:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">A lot of time, though, even that is hard to determine, and it's more a question of guessing which future evil would be worst and hoping you didn't just indirectly abet genocide in the Middle East, or something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right. That's politics/prudence. So it has always been!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18253" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nuh-uh. Politics is the art the care of which is men's souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18254" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the best prudential decision is to join the PNDP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All you wan to do is vote for whatever candidate you think is better, even if only marginally so (less evil). There is nothing wrong with that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep. Still sucks, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18257" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">other than you are actively supporting evil. but whatevs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE<br />The People's Front<br />From Monty Python's The Life of Brian. Great for getting discussion board sniping back on track.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that actively supporting argument is ridiculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T15:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that video may have been posted here before, but who can say?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18261" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T15:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's another principle at work in politics: if a politician needs your vote and needs to lie to get it, he will probably continue lying as long as he needs to be reelected by you: thus, he will probably act politically as you want him to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When it comes to voting between set candidates, at least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think voting for an evil man is ridiculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18264" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T15:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson: Sed contra: http://www.amazon.com/Cthulhu-President.../dp/B008EWPEA2#<br />Cthulhu for President. Why Choose the Lesser Evil? Pinback Button<br />You'll receive one button measuring 2.25 inches. Each...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18265" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(73, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not if he's less evil than the other candidate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18266" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF - I prefer Zod.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18267" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T15:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, Michael Beitia--choosing an evil "man" is silly. This is why the party of Cthulhu guarantees you won't be disappointed by half-measures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18268" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/.../e/e0/Vote_quimbya.jpg<br />IMG3.WIKIA.NOCOOKIE.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18269" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a two party system is also evil</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18270" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T15:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why DO we have a two party system? (Forgive my ignorance, but I've never understood (a) the reason for it or (b) when/how it got set up that way.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18271" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T15:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fine, throw your vote away. I'm still voting for Kodos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as I can tell it's a historical accident</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my guess is an agreement between the rich white man and the rich white man to maintain rich whiteness</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Oleg Kostoglotov" data-date="2014-09-18T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Oleg Kostoglotov at 2014-09-18T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do the same thing in Canada with a multi-party system, though the two party system probably makes the agreement easier.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18275" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rich creamy whiteness... like the middle of a double stuffed oreo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18276" class="entry even" data-likes="10" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T22:05:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">My view is that *all* of the views on tNET are Matthew J. Peterson's personal view. Especially the ones that contradict each other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18277" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T15:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nice use of the lowercase "t" Joel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18278" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF: Because in a multi-party system, you get to vote for "purer" candidates and parties that clog up the system and promote discord and instability. Heh.<br />Winner take all elections (especially as regards the presidency) are what dictate or create our mostly two party system (with some marginal third parties that sometimes help change the face of the two parties). The two party system moderates extreme views and forces constantly changing large scale coalitions within the parties, which are simply speaking coalitions that seek to win elections. It helps make large scale republican or popular government possible in the sense that it forces very broad and big coalitions that, as I say, are always changing. It pushes politics towards a "center."<br />If you had a Prime Minister instead of a President based on votes in parliament, you could have a multi-party system here too. I'm not convinced that would be an improvement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18279" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-18T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-18T15:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">18500 comments, what are we talking about these days?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If people understood that parties are simply coalitions to get elected, and that voting is simply about choosing the best possible, and accepted that reality - then we could start to get somewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18281" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T15:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure my views are mainstream enough to really sit comfortably in any coalition in the USA these days.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is always a better and worse, and closer and farther, and politics is about persuading others and working prudently to move things towards what you see as the good insofar as it is possible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The parties are like unreal "averages" created to win elections. Most people don't sit comfortably within them. We need to stop thinking about them the way we do: as ideological choices through and through that OUGHT to each be based on clear political philosophies. Most people still view them and voting in a way that prevents realistic engagement with American political life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18284" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Oleg Kostoglotov" data-date="2014-09-18T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Oleg Kostoglotov at 2014-09-18T16:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem wit the United States party system in my opinion is that the two party system worked better as a general position or trend that you wanted the country as a whole to gravitate towards, in this I think you can find more commonality between people . But as the Federal government usurped the minutia of policy that should be in the hands local government it became harder to find that common ground between diverse peoples from different parts of the country.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-18T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-18T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's with the disclaimer on the original now? Matthew J. Peterson are you being held responsible for all views expressed here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18286" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T17:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a much too late attempt to ensure my diverse array of friends and colleagues understand -- well, it's probably far too late.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HA! Peterson, you just need to join NPDP. we vote with open windows</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Tom Sundaram" data-date="2014-09-18T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Tom Sundaram at 2014-09-18T18:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I have now seen the bodies of 4 different incorruptible saints in Rome ALONE and yet I have never seen so many lifeless bodies as I see on TNET. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18289" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T19:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I broke into the Thomist thread. I am selling a new line of wife beaters for tNET. (BTW pretty funny how that ended up on the bash TAC thread.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18290" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T19:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">can't do it. One infinite thread is enough for me. (and I reeeeealy hate misogyny, especially the religiously justified kind)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">only looked at 2 comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18292" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T20:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No time to comment on everything. But a few<br />1. Jeff, if you murder your spouse in order to marry another, you cannot. That is a diriment impediment to marriage<br />Can. 1090 §1. Anyone who with a view to entering marriage with a certain person has brought about the death of that person’s spouse or of one’s own spouse invalidly attempts this marriage.<br />§2. Those who have brought about the death of a spouse by mutual physical or moral cooperation also invalidly attempt a marriage together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T20:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Women in combat! Go!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18294" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T20:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">2. Mrs. Samantha Cohoe and Daniel Lendman, I once too held the one vote per household<br />Problem is, that disincentives marriage. Better, especially if we agree, for my spouse and I to be separate, and get two votes, than married and get only one...further, while the man is the head of the wife (just quoting scripture there), the whole political structure presumes relating to individuals. I think the desire to respect subsidiarity and family is Lendman's motive, mine too. But that is better down first and foremost in other ways, especially local.<br />Not to mention the legal issues. If no unmarried persons can vote, well maybe that would work. But if they can, are we using the femme sole, femme covert distinction in law? In which case the wife's say belongs to the husband as the one in charge of her, precisely as her father was, whereas a single woman, a femme sole, would have her own say (and property, etc)...hardly incentive to marry! So forget the easter states and stupid New York laws. California has the common property law. Unlike the subjugated nature in the east coast, our laws treated the spouses as one person, as is especially seen in ownership of property (and that gets complicated, e.g. firearm laws and who owns what), but it is every different than merely placing the woman under a man's custody.<br />But if so, if they disagree, who gets to punch the ballot? You say the man, as head. Okay, but then the practical difficulty arises, the woman has incentive to be her own person and not marry<br />Ending woman suffrage would, de facto, be very beneficial but only in the same way that nuking New York and SF and LA would shift American politics...not in its root, but because those happen to be more "liberal" blocs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18295" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T20:21:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It normalizes violence against women. And therefore is evil. Why would you want women to perform the worst activity of men?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T20:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18297" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is only going to work if I tag all the people who were arguing over on that other thread, but I don't seem to be friends with them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18298" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T20:25:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">MAX SUMME, WHEN DID YOU UNFRIEND ME YOU JERK.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18299" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T20:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Max Summe and Evan Dunkel are not your friends?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18300" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T20:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">what other threadt?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18301" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T20:29:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">THERE IS NO OTHER THREAD</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18302" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Evan Dunkel" data-date="2014-09-18T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Evan Dunkel at 2014-09-18T20:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I refuse to be sucked into the Never Ending Thread... This shall be my only post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18303" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T20:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thing has been going for over a month and it's the best thing on facebook. But I understand not following the crowd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18304" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T20:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#nonconformitygnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18305" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-18T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-18T20:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kind of like Facebook, you can only put it off for so long. Eventually everyone joins though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18306" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T20:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">pffft... Evan Dunkel, the more you deny tNET, the more you will be drawn into it - your FB being is even now only existing within tNET, regardless of your acknowledgment of the fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18307" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sarah Susanka" data-date="2014-09-18T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sarah Susanka at 2014-09-18T20:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">In 2014, tNET became self aware.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-18T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-18T20:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe - I didn't?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T21:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET has always been self aware, Sarah. It let us become aware of it in 2014</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18310" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-18T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-18T21:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh, I sort of want to agree, but I'd hardly call warfare the worst activity of man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-18T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-18T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dunkel's tautological proof for the existence of the thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-18T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-18T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kenz, did you seriously mean anything you just said about denying women voting rights or any of the other crap about subjugation to her husband?<br />And you didn't actually think I was serious that murder is more forgivable than bigamy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-18T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-18T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As for firearms laws and ownership, what is your point? Clearly you are a gun nut, do you not think that your wife is not a gun nut too? <br />(All the women in my wife's family are gun fans... To a degree you could never comprehend)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18314" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T21:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz actually argued against denying women voting rights, albeit circuitously</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Max, that's weird, because we definitely used to be friends. I remember because you had a LOT of strong political opinions-- oh. well. this is embarrassing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18316" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're friends now! All's well that ends well, right? haha. ha. ah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, no, I was just seeing stuff in my feed about your water carbonator the other day, so we must have been friends then, and I definitely didn't unfriend you in the last couple of days, so it WAS you! Proof!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18318" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-18T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-18T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe - A long time ago, I was on facebook. Then I was off facebook. Then I was on facebook again. Then I was off facebook... and now I'm on facebook. <br />So I never unfriended you specifically. Just facebook.<br />(Also - you can see stuff in a feed that a mutual friend liked. Depending on privacy settings. So that proves nothing.)<br />If I were going to unfriend you though, it would be because I had a grudge against Caleb Cohoe for the way he used to keep winning sneakily at board games over the summer on campus... But I haven't unfriended him so.... that seems absurd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18319" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T21:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I wouldn't blame you if you unfriended me for that. Everyone hates Caleb for sneakily winning at board games.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-18T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-18T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, Kenz's arguement "for" equality ended when he said he was once against it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, it clearly wasn't an argument for equality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">politics sucks let's throw them all out windows #PNDPgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18323" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T21:57:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Abolish the vote!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18324" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-18T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-18T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife was accepted to tac, but chose not to go and instead went to Washington, D.C. To work for congressman Dornan. She has first hand political experience that I do not have and an understanding for hill politics beyond the average American. <br />As for gun rights and ownership, I'm proud to say she took me on our first date to the shooting range her sister worked and the femAles in her family own the nicest weapons I have ever held. <br />Your chauvinism is shallow and immature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18325" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T22:06:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">name calling Jeffie? It's a little early for that. I think this is more a question of how to emphasize family in the political sphere - not keep women pregnant and barefooted....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18326" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(63, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T22:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Weinerface Scrotchburger being mean to anyone else on their profile pictures? I knew it was a bad idea to accept his friend request...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18327" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T22:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did accept it a couple of years ago and he did the Linda Blair on me. Yes bad idea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff. You have got to be kidding. Do you seriously think that the guillotining of the head of household isn't just a modern aberrance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18329" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You survived Weinerface's tNET friend purge?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18330" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And John, I feel like I never understand what you are talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you speak in code?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18332" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T22:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">#culturaldifferencegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18333" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T22:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#friendpurgegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T22:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Austen had been barefoot and pregnant we wouldn't have to hold our tongues so much. I mean if she walked the walk, we wouldn't have these contraversies about domestic rabbits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18335" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T22:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#gnostic_gnowledge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-18T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-18T22:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh...come again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18337" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Say it in English so I can bite your head off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and here come the domestiated rabbits to the rescue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">J.K. . . i guess i am too obcure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18341" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You better not be calling me a domesticated rabbit. That would be worse than "hip chick," making you worse than Weinerface.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18342" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-18T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-18T22:26:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">#hipchickgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18343" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ahhhhh cute. I'm not mad anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18344" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-18T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-18T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, what are we mad at Josh for? Quoting Canon law or did I miss something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's a gender essentialist, and he's only reluctantly in favor of voting rights for women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-18T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-18T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I have zero tolerance for subjugation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18347" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-18T22:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to simply say that the last century has demonstratively made the case against women's suffrage. <br />* ducks *</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18348" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-18T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-18T22:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh that's nothing new. <br />As for subjugation that's all over Scripture... now what we understand it to mean though... That's not as clearly stated, however it is part of marriage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18349" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T22:42:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have blocked Jeff...I said nothing about equality or non-equality. I have no stomach to argue against someone who isn't even arguing against me, but is chasing phantoms and burning strawmen. Though I hope the fact that I dislike the "femme covert/femme sole" as opposed to the common property approach (inherited via Spain from visigothic law) would indicate I don't think the husband "owns" his wife. Obviously reverting to that old English law doctrine was something I thought was a negative.<br />My initial support for voting by household arose solely from the fact that the family is the primary unit of society, rather than the individual. Now either we restrict voting to only family units, specifically in the context of marriage, or we all individuals who aren't married a vote, and families a vote. But if the former, then the family, as a unit, is diminished because whereas before marriage there were two votes, now there is but one.<br />And in either case, the question must be "who decides the vote" Yes man and woman are as one person, through a moral union. That doesn't mean they agree. And where there is but two, then a majority vote doesn't work...so one must be the decider. I mocked the idea of making the man the decider via the femme sole/femme covert distinction, which treated woman as under her husband, the way a minor female was under her father. Even Aristotle didn't think those "rules" were the same. But even under a different legal doctrine, we hold that "man is the head of the wife." That is simply quoting scripture. So he would end up, practically, having a vote and through marriage woman would lose the vote. Or else women would never have the vote (if the unmarried in general were denied).<br />Hmm, the fact that I saw this as a problem...yes, my argument was only about incentivising/disincentivising marriage. But it doesn't follow that I secretly harbor a belief that women shouldn't have a say. <br />These considerations and others forced me to abandon the "respect family as a unit of society by making it the voting unit" approach. If that is sexist, then so be it. I guess everything is sexist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T22:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ryan Burke. Oh, perhaps that was hyperbolic. War can be done justly. But even then it is one of those uglier things that are sometimes necessary, no?<br />There are virtues associated with war...bravery for one. And of course, insofar as we speak of those virtues in general, women are capable and should in fact aim at them. But war is still an evil, even if virtuous men must engage in it from time to time. <br />So maybe not the worst thing men do, but the worst among the sometimes "good" things.<br />ETA: and certain dispositions, while they may be ordered properly to reason, are certainly less desirable in themselves, though desirable in war, such as aggression, the ability to suspend empathy, etc. Put it this way, the sort of dispositions desirable in a soldier are double-edged things, but even when ordered by virtue they remain less desirable, then say the meekness of Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18351" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-18T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-18T22:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz, I was mostly kidding with my above comment. I'm a gender essentialist, too. It's a shameful secret I hide around (non-TAC)academics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18352" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T22:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I wasn't calling you a domesticated rabbit. I was amazed at Joel's rapid response to my silly joke. I don't want to resurrect Austen. But I am pissed that I forgot my thesis regarding her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18353" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T22:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger, I am more progressive than that. Pregnant, barefoot, and in the kitchen! I am fine if women wear shoes.....<br />Okay bad joke....I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18354" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T22:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am amenable to feminists in the context of modern culture on many issues, but I also hold that we have indeed unnecessarily diminished masculinity. Most people who say the latter I despise, so I hesitate to say it.<br />But war is ever present in some form or other, no? Even with ourselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18355" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-18T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-18T22:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shoes are uncomfortable while pregnant and in the kitchen... Well that and they tend to shrink..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18356" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T22:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, I wish feminists put their money and focus where their mouth is, as modern culture and college campuses are indeed full of "rape culture." They rarely attack the most obvious targets, however, or the roots causes of violence and injustice against women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18357" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They shrink, or the ankles swell?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18358" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-18T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-18T22:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The shoes shrink!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18359" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T22:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I couldn't agree more... I have seen more of that nastiness in the last 4 weeks than I could have imagined. If one wants to see actual subjugation of women, watch their position in the society that is a college dorm, how they are related to, and how they relate to men in that context. It becomes quite clear how unhealthy the air is for a woman who respects herself...because certainly very few of the men respect her, and the culture of those dorms do not. And in that atmosphere, well I fear for them at times....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18360" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T22:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Put it this way, few Law and Order episodes on the subject, I used to think of as hyperbole...I don't think that anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes and we have to be very very careful of victim blaming, insofar as we're "putting blame" where it is due.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T23:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually agree with Matthew J. Peterson on multi-party systems being worse than two party systems.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18363" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T23:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austria is multi-party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18364" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-18T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-18T23:10:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">But this would be much better: https://opuspublicum.wordpress.com/.../on-royal-government/<br />On Royal Government<br />For the first time ever a French/English edition of Fr. Reginald Garrigrou-Lagrange's essay "On Royal...<br />OPUSPUBLICUM.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T23:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">execute all monarchs. (Sorry Pater)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">READ von Luddhin's Equality or Liberty - free at von Mises Inst.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18367" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T23:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with you abstractly, Pater, but in most practical circumstancs monarchy would result in a step backwards (Mid East excepted).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh what's going on in the Middle East is conservatism at its most pure - conserving the caliphate....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Monarchy is the best form . . . . its not even close. Von Luddhin even as a liberal saw that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18370" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T23:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's a difference between the claim that "X is the best simply speaking" and "X is the best in such circumstances"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T23:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In most Western Countries, instituting a monarchy would be a step backwards because the people would not accept such a form of government and so it would lead to constant internal strife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does backwards mean Edward. What, is Islam backwards or monarchy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18373" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-18T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-18T23:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">both, really</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">late</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18375" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T23:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I mean is that if the US were to become a real kingdom in the next ten years, it would be a bloody mess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(literally)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-18T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-18T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(i.e. not figuratively)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18378" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T23:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, the hatred is more of the name than the reality....which is why the 2nd Roman monarchy named the Emperors rather than kings, and made every pretense of still being the Roman Republic....now that Emperor is a bad name, we just have to get creative</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, are the people backwards or the regime? And I agree that it cant be imposed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">late again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I do encourage you to look at Luddhin. Anarchy doesnt work because it cant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once the democratic age falls, monarchy will be restored and not the decrepit sort.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18383" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-18T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-18T23:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I only see a massive change like that through an age of violence first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">democracy ---> tyrrany ... always (as if the 20th century weren't proof enough)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, Joshua, but not an age. It will be short and it has begun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18386" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T23:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund: I have some good readings on the two party subject I have to dig out for my syllabus anyhow. Would be interested to hear what you think of them.<br />We "actually agree." Hah. Have you ever read Hamilton's long speech in the constitutional convention?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18387" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T23:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahah...monarchy.<br />I agree with Aristotle. And Plato. And St. Thomas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18388" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T23:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The President has more power than many a monarch (as opposed to a tyrant), but the trade off is short term elections.<br />Then again, we are far from a democracy. More like a constitutional gov or polity, even still, that drags towards the corrupt form (democracy).<br />But we are just as far much farther in terms of corrupt regime forms toward oligarchy than democracy.<br />Representation itself is aristocratic by nature and corrupts into oligarchy. It's not democratic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But as Aristotle said, the best possible is to inculcate a neutralizing tension between oligarchy and democracy, which can help a few good citizens shoot for the mean and a true notion of justice in the midst of the messy affairs of humankind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18390" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T23:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think any of the trinity I invoked thought monarchy simply speaking was the best possible form of government.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-18T23:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-18T23:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have have to think a bit and dig to see what sort of government we have: on paper and also in the real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18392" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-18T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-18T23:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure. It still would be called a government of the many by Aristotle, as the few must still get majority opinion on their side at some level.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T00:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always thought that the Constitution, while clearly not the product of Thomistic thought, does resemble in many respect's Aquinas' ideal government, as described in the Summa</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But as to whether it is a good witch or a bad witch, well...let's just say no one during their lifetime, regardless of the underlying form (one, few, or many), thinks the form they are under is the good kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jefferson probably read Bellarmine, and they still had vestiges of a scholastic education, both via the Scottish enlightenment guys and their Aristotle and via their Tudor English roots - but yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This was a time in which you were accepted to school based on Euclid and Greek and Latin abilities. Madison's logic and rhetoric course started with Aristotle's categories like at TAC - and he wrote against Locke's epistemology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jefferson mentions Aristotle along with Locke and Sidney.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18398" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what saves it above all is old time religion and long experience. The entire federal Constitution and and the entire Federalist movement is dedicated to countering democracy as a corrupt form with what amounts to polity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That and people like Hamilton's push for a more mixed regime.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18400" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Otherwise - how the hell could any republican or democratic form last this long?!? It's an amazing anomaly. And Christians will be sad and look back at the moment longingly when it's gone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18402" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wish I was in Pater Edmund's neck of the woods for some real beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the government we got has often been better than the "ideal" of even many of the founding fathers, particularly Jefferson and Madison (on the issue of religion certainly). Perhaps the familiarity with the classics helps explain that<br />But frankly I think the mass of people were more "conservative" and certainly more religious than most of the founding fathers....that certainly had some (beneficial) effect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, it seems to me that Rome is the best comparative for our government. As to Aristotle, Plato and Aquinas endorsing ours as best, that requires a rather selective reading and a curious application but I am pretty rusty there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18405" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T00:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T00:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, only in a certain respect<br />I answer that, Two points are to be observed concerning the right ordering of rulers in a state or nation. One is that all should take some share in the government: for this form of constitution ensures peace among the people, commends itself to all, and is most enduring, as stated in Polit. ii, 6. The other point is to be observed in respect of the kinds of government, or the different ways in which the constitutions are established. For whereas these differ in kind, as the Philosopher states (Polit. iii, 5), nevertheless the first place is held by the "kingdom," where the power of government is vested in one; and "aristocracy," which signifies government by the best, where the power of government is vested in a few. Accordingly, the best form of government is in a state or kingdom, where one is given the power to preside over all; while under him are others having governing powers: and yet a government of this kind is shared by all, both because all are eligible to govern, and because the rules are chosen by all. For this is the best form of polity, being partly kingdom, since there is one at the head of all; partly aristocracy, in so far as a number of persons are set in authority; partly democracy, i.e. government by the people, in so far as the rulers can be chosen from the people, and the people have the right to choose their rulers. (St. I-II q. 105 a. 1 co)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18406" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T07:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T07:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say anything about those cats endorsing ours as best. I just said monarchy simpliciter supporters they were not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True about the religiosity of the people - of which many intellectuals today are entirely ignorant. New England laws were over a century old and devoted unabashedly to virtue by the time of the revolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But even the most unorthodox of elites like Jefferson thought reason proved the existence of God and the virtues known by reason largely overlapped with the virtues of Christianity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was mad that priests taught superstition and faith when God could be proved via reason. Hah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18410" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you had a recognition even among most elite enlightenment types here that the ethics and virtue of religion and reason largely overlapped and that "pure democracy" was a bad thing and needed serious mitigation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T00:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, that needs a lot more fleshing out. I have no problem with what is said there. I DO have a problem saying that ours is the application of what Aquinas says. Matthew, you are compelling me to do some rereading and new reading. I may do so. . . maybe starting Sunday.So thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone read Aquinas' treatise on monarchy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mixed governments aren't bad. But they do need to be mixed. Medieval governance was often more mixed than ours.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18415" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T01:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We read On Kingship at TAC...and I have read is a half a dozen times since</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18416" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T01:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange's introduction to On Kingship has now been translated. I linked it above, but here it is again: https://opuspublicum.files.wordpress.com/.../lagrange-on...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18417" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T01:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson: I remember reading a good speech by Hamilton where he talks about how the president should be elected for life (if I remember rightly; at least for a long time).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Artur Sebastian" data-date="2014-09-19T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Artur Sebastian at 2014-09-19T01:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rosman Bless their hearts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T01:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He made that speech (saying out loud that the British form of gov at the was best in the world - not a popular opinion) and then left the convention to pay bills back home with his law practice. Not a landed wealthy type.<br />But many think he did it on purpose to make Madison's proposals look palatable and more moderate by comparison, and I think they must be right. Shortly after this the convention moved in Madison's direction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T01:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://twitter.com/BuckeyeinIdaho/status/512831269797756928<br />Ross Cunningham on Twitter: "God Save the Queen and God Save the United Kingdom! Now let's work...<br />When you tweet with a location, Twitter stores that location. You can switch location on/off before each Tweet and always have the option to delete your location history. Learn more<br />TWITTER.COM|BY ROSS CUNNINGHAM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T08:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T08:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Franklin wanted two heads of state elected for one year, a la the Roman model</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18422" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T08:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T08:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">55% vs 45% It wasn't even that close. Quebec got a lot closer in 95.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T09:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You monarchists are adorable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18424" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T09:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">if adorably wrong. <br />gimme an H!<br />gimme an E!<br />gimme a G!<br />gimme an E!<br />gimme an L!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for monarchists:<br />http://www.taleswithmorals.com/aesop-fable-the-frogs...<br />The Frogs Desiring a King an Aesop's Fable<br />Visit this site dedicated to providing Free Aesop's Fables for kids including The Frogs Desiring a King. Free version...<br />TALESWITHMORALS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My authority for kingly rule is Monsieur Rip van Winkle. It is much more compatable with leisure: sitting in the shade, pipe smoking, unfrenetic discussion, and sipping beer. Rip for peasant! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18427" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T10:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">see that's the problem I always have with monarchists. They seem to assume that they are the aristocracy and not the dirt farmer who lives and dies in squalor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T10:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And really, no American has any cause to assume that. If you're here, it's because your ancestors were having a lousy time in the old country under the monarchs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18429" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T10:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#immigrationgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, your view of kingship is maimed by centuries of Jacobin propoganda. Indeed the most tyrranical monarchs in past ages - and there were some douzies - don't come close to some modern totalitarian "democracies". But just keep dreaming anarchy . . . . just how does that work again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which anarchy are you talking about?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why we need balance of powers and the rule of law-- nobody is advocating totalitarianism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and my view of kingship is maimed by years of reading history)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">rip was not aristocrat. Nor have I any such ambition . . .at all. Nor do I imagine it to be a panacea or perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">any utopian dream is a failure from the get go, whether it be anarchism, monarchy, or representative democracy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is probably why Peterson keeps advocating the 'Merican regime. as the least awful of crapulent choices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fixed </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18438" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T11:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faculty seminar on the Crito this afternoon. I plan on being provocative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Crito is one of the most difficult of the dialogues. It is deceptively simple. Anyone have a definitive take on it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18440" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T11:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are no definitive takes on Plato.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#straussgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Michael you should know that Pater Edmund is perfectly just in assuming that he is in the aristocracy:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Waldstein<br />House of Waldstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />The House of Waldstein (Czech: Valdštejnové) is a Czech noble family, originally from the old early mediaeval Bohemian clan Markvartici. Formerly a poor and less significant family, it gradually acquired large properties in the territory of the Crown of Bohemia (especially in Bohemia and Moravia), r…<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18443" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm Basque. We're all nobility</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your Basque?!?! Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is so cool!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just like d'Artagnan!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Basque are one of the strangest groups of people on earth in terms of genetics and language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Strangest and most fascinating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18449" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't I know it. You should go to a cultural fesitval</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Basque language isn't derived from the Indo-European mother language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18451" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know my grandparents speak it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T11:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a dictionary at home, but I can't pronounce it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's awesome!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You would be cooler if you could speak it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18455" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(65, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can say "where is the bathroom", count to 20, and "poor man with loose pants" which is idiomatic for pathetic. My grandmother used to say it to us when we were kids and injured....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that's cool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's weird. What's it related to, then? Anything?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18458" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This excerpt from Wikipedia basically argues that Basque is a stone aged language:<br />Though geographically surrounded by Indo-European Romance languages, Basque is classified as a language isolate. It is the last remaining descendant of the pre-Indo-European languages of Western Europe.[6] Consequently, its prehistory may not be reconstructible by means of the comparative method except by applying it to differences between dialects within the language. Little is known of its origins but it is likely that an early form of the Basque language was present in Western Europe before the arrival of the Indo-European languages to the area.<br />Authors such as Miguel de Unamuno and Louis Lucien Bonaparte have noted that the words for "knife" (aizto), "axe" (aizkora) and "hoe" (aitzur) derive from the word for "stone" (haitz), and have therefore concluded that the language dates to the Stone Age, when those tools were made of stone;[9][10] others find this unlikely; see the aizkora controversy.<br />Latin inscriptions in Aquitania preserve a number of words with cognates in reconstructed proto-Basque, for instance the personal names Nescato and Cison (neskato and gizon mean "young girl" and "man" respectively in modern Basque). This language is generally referred to as Aquitanian and is assumed to have been spoken in the area before the Roman conquests in the western Pyrenees. Some authors even argue that the language moved westward during Late Antiquity, after the fall of Rome, into the northern part of Hispania in which Basque is spoken today.[6]<br />Roman neglect of this area allowed Aquitanian to survive while the Iberian and Tartessian languages became extinct. Through the long contact with Romance languages, Basque adopted a sizable number of Romance words. Initially the source was Latin, later Gascon (a branch of Occitan) in the northeast, Navarro-Aragonese in the southeast and Spanish in the southwest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18459" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is classed as "Lingua Isolate"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or something like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Woah, cool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T12:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is so awesome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T12:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Lingua Isolate." I learned something today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there are varying dialects within the Basque region. My grandfather is from Gipuzkoa, which is supposed to be the most "pure" linguistically</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18465" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there was my giant Basque flag flying in the 300 dorm, back in the day....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate<br />Language isolate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />A language isolate, in the absolute sense, is a natural language with no demonstrable genealogical (or "genetic") relationship with other languages, one that has not been demonstrated to descend from an ancestor common with any other language. Language isolates are in effect language families consis…<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(69, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How Basque are you? 100%? I'll be disappointed if it's less than 100%</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18468" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">50%</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">be disappointed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so disappointing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18471" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, is Beitia at least a Basque name?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">People with Basque descent move their eyes differently when they try to remember something, also.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">shut up. that's not real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18474" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18475" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes. it means "down"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18476" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is also the most common Basque surname, but it is usually mixed with other words.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18477" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-19T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-19T12:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman is full of the crap. Beitia is Basque and fibs all the time and his telltale eye movements are totally normal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-19T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-19T12:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madinabeitia is common, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18479" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most people look up and to the left when they try to remember something from "long term" memory. Basque, I think, look the opposite way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18480" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat, they don't know me like you do.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18481" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">fyi:<br />http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/B/beitia.html<br />Buber's Basque Page: Beitia<br />Buber's Basque Page, Basque history, language, culture, sports, food, Blas' biography and a description of research<br />BUBER.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T12:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I highly suggest those with small children teach them "Basque Santa"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18483" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I don't lie to my children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-19T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-19T12:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, 'cause Santa is not Basque. He's Turkish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18485" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(67, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Santa ruins Christmas. I hate Santa.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18486" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-19T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-19T12:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">such a Protestant, Samantha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nobody wants to fight about Santa?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18488" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-19T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-19T12:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Knowing nearly nothing about the Basque, TNET continues to remain weird and interesting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you guys think that the arguments Socrates makes to Crito for why he should remain in prison and not try to escape are convincing arguments? What do you think he is up to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18490" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T12:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#basquegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18491" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basque santa is a drunken evil giant that eats bad children. Much nicer than a bishop flying around depositing presents<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olentzero<br />Olentzero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Olentzero (Basque pronunciation: [olents̻eɾo]) is a Basque Christmas tradition. According to Basque traditions...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18492" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">disclaimer: we never did Santa at my house.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18493" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This #Xgnosis thing should be getting old by now, but somehow it continues to delight me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it never gets old to me #hashtaggnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18495" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that Santa ruins Christmas (especially the American Santa invented by Coca-Cola advertisements), but isn't there a way of having similar figures (eg. St Nicholas and Krampus) that is not a lie? Figurative speech and all that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18496" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Michael Beitia would say, I have a link for everything: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../lying-to-children.../<br />Lying to Children; or Edward Feser at the Battle of Solferino<br />In an excellent series of blog posts Edward Feser has...<br />SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18497" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know, Pater, my kids are very good at distinguishing fable from fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18498" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I don't agree that there is ever a time that children think dolls are as real as their brothers and sisters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18499" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Children are good at pretending, but they know when they are pretending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18500" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those of us with children near the puberty line have to know what is appropriate to explain without lying, but still at an age appropriate level. That is a difficult task</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, if you tell your kids that St. Nicholas is coming to fill the shoes with candy, what is figurative about that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">isn't anyone going to read about Olentzero</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see how it's figuratively true any more than it is literally true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18504" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-19T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-19T13:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We never did Santa... I don't think we missed out on anything. Though it was amusing when my aunt had to tell my 5 year old brother not to ruin her 12 year old daughter's last year of believing in Santa. Though I think the gifts left in our stockings may have given her a clue (she got a disc man, we had Oranges, toothbrushes and a movie.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18505" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the hardest for us was having my blabber-mouthed second son not ruining it for other kids at school. (he takes after me)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18506" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-19T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-19T13:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm glad there are moms who fret about Santa in the world. That sounds condescending, but I mean it in the best way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">St Nicolas is the occasion of one's parents filling one's shoes. So the figure is occasion for cause, as in "Christmas fills the shops."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why is that more exciting than saying "we celebrate St. Nicholas's day by putting candy in your shoes!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-19T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-19T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other kids never believed me... But I guess it was 12-1 ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are figures of speech ever more exciting?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. It isn't more exciting because it's a figure of speech. It's more exciting because they believe something that isn't true, which you intended them to believe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think if there is some distant sense in which what you are saying is true, but it isn't the sense you intend to convey, and it isn't the sense in which it is believed, then it's a lie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a child I never experienced it as a lie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">really Pater? I was pissed when I found out I was lied to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18516" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know lots of former kids who felt lied to, and lots who didn't. Doesn't really change the facts, though. If you were lied to, you were whether you felt deceived or not, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the question is whether I was lied to or not. The fact that I never experienced it as a lie is not proof but it is evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18518" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-19T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-19T13:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some parents take it way to far. We always talked about the toothfairy but always knew it was just mom and dad...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Lauren.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18520" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T13:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">leprechons are ok, but that's bc they are real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18521" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think intending to deceive your child is taking it too far. If you're telling a story, and everybody kinda knows it's a story, that's fine. My eldest is pretty literal minded. He would want to pin us down on the details.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18522" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I agree on that. My parents never tried to deceive us about St Nicolas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18523" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, what did they say, exactly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18524" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw, I like that no one is even trying to defend Santa</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18525" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's the worst</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18526" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">They told a story and everyone kind knew it was a story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, well, no wonder you didn't feel lied to then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Frederick Benedict Grimm what do you think?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18529" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, way, way back in the infancy of TNET you mentioned being possibly amenable to elevating the status of The Great Gatsby to Great Book. I've simply not had time to formulate a small defense of the work as such until now, so at risk of derailing the #santagnosis, here are some somewhat formed thoughts about it.<br />1. Let me state up front that my usual response when I hear someone refer to a character as a "Christ figure" or a trial as "Passion like" is to roll my eyes. Often this is an example of lazy thinking, since any story at all about a heroic character or a personal sacrifice will draw automatic comparisons to the greatest story ever told, and as such, does not usually help us truly understand the character being thus compared to Christ. That said, I think this may be one of the cases where it is in fact worthwhile to make such a comparison.<br />2. In "The Life You Save May Be Your Own," Flannery O'Connor describes the figure of Shiftlet (who ends up as another one of her "weird bringers of grace" to others) standing at the end of the driveway as forming "a crooked cross." I believe that in a similar fashion, Fitzgerald intended to portray Gatsby as a sort of "crooked Christ." Here follow a few examples of support.<br />3. The language used to describe the life and death of Gatsby is sacramental. Gatsby is referred to explicitly as a Son of God, but a self-made one. The moment he truly changes from Gatz to Gatsby is when he kisses Daisy for the first time, and Fitzgerald's exact phrasing is "the incarnation was complete." [SPOILERS] After the murder-suicide that ends the novel, when the bodies of Wilson and Gatsby are found, the exact phrasing Fitzgerald uses parallels the former - "the holocaust was complete." He is using holocaust here in the sense of "sacrifice."<br />4. Consider the facts leading up to and including Gatsby's death. He decides to use his pool for the first time all year, and blows up an air mattress to float on. He picks it up and bears it to the pool on his shoulder. He stumbles under its weight at one point, and his chauffeur offers to lend him a hand, and Gatsby merely shakes his head in refusal and moves on towards the pool. I think this is an obvious slanted reference to Simon helping Christ. Furthermore - Christ dies on a wooden cross. Gatsby dies on an air mattress. It's a twisted, slanted, not-quite-exact and frankly Wal-marty version of Christ's death.<br />5. It is common and easy to claim that Fitzgerald was writing his masterpiece MERELY as a critique of the current wealthy elite. It's more than that. Christ died to save humanity. Gatsby died because he lied to protect Daisy. It is easy to say that Daisy is an object unworthy of Gatsby's love. It is harder to say that we are like Daisy, unworthy of a love like Gatsby's, unworthy of a love like Christ's. Obviously Gatsby is not a perfect person. But just as one could argue cosmically that Christ throws Himself away for something not worth it, but that He nevertheless loves madly, one could argue that in a slanted way Fitzgerald was writing not about a single wealthy culture of a single time, but of humanity in general, by showing a great man like Gatsby throwing himself away for a wretch like Daisy that he nevertheless loves madly. We like to identify with Gatsby, we like to identify with Nick - we should be identifying ourselves with Daisy. I do not believe that the title of the book is ironic.<br />6. These thoughts are messy and partially formed, so I would be glad to modify them, clarify them, or retract them if there is evidence.<br />What does TNET think? It's been ages since we talked about this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18530" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-19T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-19T13:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's the bell Compline, I'll read your Gatsby thing tomorrow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18531" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOOOOOOOO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18532" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay pray for us </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18533" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T13:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">good luck finding it tomorrow</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18534" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#suspiciouslyconvenienttiminggnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18535" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What makes Gatsby great?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18536" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's good at making money, and he loves Daisy. That's it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18537" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T13:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And he throws a good party, obviously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well that's exactly it. I'm saying it's ironically his love for Daisy that makes him great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well that and his personal integrity, which is admittedly not uncompromised.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's always entirely possible that I'm seeing in the novel what I want to see. Nevertheless I think my evidence needs to be considered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18541" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not convinced about the personal integrity, but I like the rest of your reading.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All right. I really need to hold my tongue just because I can't finish certain books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18543" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T14:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#integritygnosis?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah as far as I can see there are two possible grounds on which to criticize him. First, the method by which he obtained his wealth was illegal bootlegging. Although we objectively consider Prohibition unreasonable and the consumption of alcohol lawful, his involvement in the criminal world is still apparently reprehensible.<br />Second, he doesn't respect the lawful marriage of Daisy and Tom. Going along with my semi-allegorical interpretation, Daisy wedded to Tom is humanity wedded to the world, and Gatsby seeking to take Daisy from him is Christ seeking to free humanity from the world's influence.<br />Bear in mind that I am not claiming this to be the "main" or "central" point of the book. It's primarily a fantastic story, about people as real as can be written; secondarily a story of modern cosmic sacrifice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure I understand your comment, John. Why don't you like the book?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">cosmic sacrifice? Definition anyone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Meaning merely that Gatsby's death bears universal significance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18548" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well. You are getting me to consider reading TGG again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18549" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is truly my only goal! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope I didn't break TNET with that long bit of Gatsby recurrence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18551" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET is not dead, but sleeping</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18552" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I hate to be a stickler, but it has been decided that the initial "t" in tNET is lowercase. that is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really? Must have missed the memo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18554" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think I like that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">our favorite compline-ite objected to "the" having a letter, others preferred the sci-fi sound of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You weren't here, so you didn't get a vote. Sorry. tNET's polling hours are short.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18557" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:08:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">unlike the trolling hours, which are 24/7</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it mirrors the iPhone and iPad nonsense, which bugs me for some reason</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18559" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T20:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">[t]NET. Pater has a pet peeve about acronyms but especially acronymizing the definite article. Causes him to cause all kinds of problems at the monastery i hear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">late again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it may mirror iPhone et al. but it is better than typing out The Neverending Thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">t'NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18563" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sounds like a football player: D'Brickshaw</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18564" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no apostrophe. polling hours are over.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18565" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-19T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-19T15:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">While we're nitpicking about acronyms, neverending is one word.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18566" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-19T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-19T15:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNT is such an explosive acronym.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is but I can't spell Toluene</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18568" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T15:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">People who tell their kids that there is no Santa Claus and dislike The Great Gatsby are history's greatest monsters. If you felt "lied to" by you parents when you found out there was no Santa, might I suggest that there are other issues at play that a professional might help you work through.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18569" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I've worked through those issues. And we didn't tell the kids that there was no Santa, we just didn't *do* the Santa thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18570" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, yeah. I should definitely see a professional. I'm not gonna deny that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm 43 and the oldest of seven. My dad STILL won't admit that there is no Santa, and it's hilarious. We DO Santa, and it's the best thing going.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">your dad is a LIAR. he sounds nice, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18573" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">we finally found a Santa-supporter! Good news!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18574" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do false beliefs about an old fat guy distributing presents increase kids' wonder at the Incarnation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18575" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also feel lied to about global Capitalism. they didn't tell me that little slave kids made my He-Man dolls.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18576" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I think it's cool that I called Aaron's dad a liar, since he called us history's greatest monsters. but I'll totally apologize if you like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18577" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-19T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-19T15:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I am mildly pro-Santa (I think it's a nuanced issue), and find the history of the Father Christmas tradition pretty interesting, but unfortunately can't post much about it because I have to get ready for my sister's rehearsal dinner. Maybe we can revisit it later?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18579" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET never revisits. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeanne's getting married?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18581" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't be talking about Cecelia, she's 10 still, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18582" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-19T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-19T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I tell my boys that Sinterklaas is real and so is Zwarte Piet.<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-19T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-19T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially Zwarte Piet, because if they're bad they'll get taken back to Spain, and everyone knows that is pretty close to hell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-19T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-19T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kinda old, but it may be one of the last Zwarte Piet songs for a while:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LurEuv7LjMU<br />Zwarte Pieten Stijl - Nederlandse Gangnam Style<br />Follow!: Like us on FACEBOOK: http://on.fb.me/1usxPYQ<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-19T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-19T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha: yes, Jeanne. Cecelia is 18, which seems pretty old, but is still probably too young to get married.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18586" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best wishes to her! I'm relieved it's not Cecelia, that would make me feel old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18587" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Olentzero would eat Zwarte Piet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18588" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-19T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-19T16:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET comes from tMG, who long predate iPhone, iPod, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18589" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, hey, Joel, I believe John called you a "domesticated rabbit" last night. You should fight him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">domestiated i believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18591" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T16:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, TNET ALWAYS revisits (eternal return...). Or, if you like, it never revisits because it never unvisits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18592" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T16:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I don't like tNET. I'm a disciple of the school of TNET. We have tradition on our side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18593" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T16:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I have a fear of rabbits ever since I saw that Monty Python horror scene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18594" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-19T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-19T16:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">tHE dOG rETURNS tO iTS vOMIT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18595" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T16:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, to speak of polling hours is to make TNET a democracy, which I think we can all agree is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18596" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only top ten commenters get a vote, so it's an oligarchy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FKATNET or [t]NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18598" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T16:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristocracy. Clearly none of us have any wealth to speak of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18599" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-19T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-19T16:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristocracy, please. Unless I'm not in the top 10.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18600" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T16:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley where's the data? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, tNET straight up doesn't make any sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18602" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T16:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we should appoint faux-bureaucratic positions for the top ten commenters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18603" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-19T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-19T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Olentzero looks like he drank everything in Spain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that would make PereScott something like VP....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18605" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T16:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nah it's not based on volume, but quality. So he's the janitor. I want him cleaning out my toilets.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18606" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T16:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ostracized. Back in ten years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18607" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T16:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want him cleaning out my toilets in bathrooms well stocked with toilet paper made of pages from that stupid bestiary of his.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18608" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T16:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have a very detailed idea of this faux-bureaucracy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, what ever happened to bearing his offspring. . . how's that working? Still friends?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you read his bestiary? I did not. Was it amusing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18611" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to be Consul. Michael can be Tribune of the Plebs. Isak can be tNET's poet laureate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18612" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson should be Censor, and probably also Mr. Kenz.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being anti-Santa is ham fisted humorlessness masquerading as piety. Samantha Cohoe, it does nothing to reinforce the mystery of the incarnation. So what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18614" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So it's a big distraction from the actual importance of Christmas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18615" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Must every waking moment of Christmas be spent discussing the incarnation? Do you ONLY talk about the incarnation at a Christmas party, or do you socialize? What about tree trimming? Is that too big of a distraction? Santa is a fun thing that keeps kids entertained during Christmastime. Objecting to it is reactionary and silly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-19T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-19T16:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The data must be delayed . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like to do all manner of festive things that celebrate Jesus's birth, including tree trimming and parties and whatnot. That's just part of the party. I don't see Santa that way. To me, it seems to truly make Christmas about something else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18618" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus there's the lying part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18619" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess Ed should be the Quaestor, since he is keeper of the stats.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18620" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T16:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not lying. It's fooling around. When we go camping I tell my kids to look for fairies. Am I a liar? This strained rejection of fantasy and play smells slightly of Jansenism. But this thread is made up of alumni of an institution that employs "prefects" to ferret out the sinful behavior of their classmates, so I guess I'm not surprised.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18621" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'm probably a Jansenist. I like fantasy and play, though. There's a big difference between fantasy and play and legitimately trying to deceive one's children. I admit Santa can be done in an innocuous way that's probably fun for some people. But it's often just straight lies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18622" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T16:50:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I had carried around a trained ferret with me when I was a prefect. That would have been fantastic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18623" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T16:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would have used it like a drug sniffing dog to "ferret out" sinful behavior. They would all have feared me and my ferret.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18624" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T16:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">His name would be Jansen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18625" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T16:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What's that Jansen?"<br />[excited ferret noises]<br />Morgan I Branch isn't back to the dorm yet and it's past curfew?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18626" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I note that no one has objected to my nomination of myself as Consul of tNET, so I'm just going to call it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18627" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have said so...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-19T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-19T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least prefects are not sneaky like at other colleges.... Or not as sneaky...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T16:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know LOTS of parents that do insist on the Santa myth, who would be less offended if you told their kid you didn't believe in Jesus...think about that. I can say, I don't believe in God or Jesus to children with less risk of an angry parent than disbelieving in Santa.<br />If one does the Santa thing, then at least make it actual St. Nick...he didn't have no wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somebody can be my coconsul if they speak up fast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18631" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T16:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I nominate Michael Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18632" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T16:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No Mr. Kenz, he's Tribune of the Plebs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-19T16:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-19T16:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Make my kid doubt Santa... You evil villain!!! Place doubt in their mind about Christ or God... no big deal, you don't want your kids living in a bubble now do you?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18634" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T17:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That whole spy routine that crops up now and again that Aaron Gigliotti is referring to is infuriating.<br />Institutions are better off paying close attention to helping students who exhibit signs they need help. You'd curb a lot of shenanigans that way.<br />But the tattle tale stuff is infrequent and comes and goes in cycles - or at least it used to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just finished being a prefect there, and there was not any tattling, nor really any "ferreting" to speak of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18636" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, I am Caesar. That means my Coconsul is Pompey and we will later fight a great war, which I will win.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18637" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who wants to be Brutus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, you can be Cato.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No prefect ferreted out sinful behavior while I was there! Heck I was suite mates with a prefect, and kept a whole stock of bottles visible as soon as you opened the bathroom door...bourbon mostly<br />In all seriousness, the one prefect that tried to be too nosy had a massive backlash iirc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get stuck in traffic driving home from work and you've all doled out the honors without my input? I am ashamed of all of you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18641" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I made you Tribune of the Plebs. Be grateful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The nice thing about being a prefect is that you don't have to waste time at Mass craning your neck to see who's sitting out communion. Matthew J. Peterson, I have heard really creepy stories about prefects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18643" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not even sure how we ended up using the Roman system.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that probably makes you Marc Antony, by the way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I cannot speak for every prefect especially the girls, despite having slept in every dorm (St. Therese was the nicest)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because it's the best and the funnest!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron has heard stories! Eww, how exciting!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since Caesar made Marc Anthony a Tribune of the Plebs. So you'll have to avenge me later, fyi, Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18649" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson keeping an aquatic mammal, you know for personal use... inside city limits.... that ain't legal neither dude.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, perhaps that's true (no one during my time would have done it), but don't think of it as the norm. Most prefects are just normal students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-19T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-19T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well the prefect I roomed with never gave out an hour... And she didn't like the thought of me coming through our window and having to give me one either ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18652" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got tackled by two prefects half drunk trying to sneak into the dorm at 3 in the morning. After the wrestling we realized we were all locked out....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">While there are occasionally over-zealous prefects, to say that the school hires them to ferret out sinners or do anything of the kind is garbage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18654" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-19T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-19T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like where this is going...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The prefects were pretty ok when I was there, I thought, except about the dress code.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18656" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">some people are just jerks, and some jerks get authority</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18657" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nobody wants to be Coconsul? This can be the early years. We don't have to turn on each other for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, what I object to is you automatically treating me like an inferior.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll be proconsul of my own thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever. tNET will just have to conquer your thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not if I'm proconsul. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18662" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, proconsul, eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, then? By exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18663" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, before I scandalize anyone two of the female dorms were unoccupied and I was exhausted and on break while working in them, by myself. The other one, well all the occupants were either working or out at the moment and I was working in that dorm, and I thought, wow if I took a nap I could get reactions from people by saying I had slept in all the girls' dorms...do I did...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I'll go to my own thread and dominate everyone there!!! Bwahahahahahaa</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18665" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:12:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">As long as you remain under the rule of tNET and send regular tribute</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18666" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18667" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T17:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what do they want t prefects to do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now we see the violence inherent in the system!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18669" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea, Aaron. Mostly give me shit about my foul mouth, I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18670" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-19T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-19T17:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18671" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Prefects are glorified RA's...and I would take the hours (never got one myself...despite all my attempts to goad them) over the massive fines at other schools</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18672" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got hours, I just never did them. The cook, Todd, used to smoke cigarettes out back with me instead</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18673" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe the top twenty commenters can be Roman citizens, and the rest of you are conquered subjects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18674" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-19T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-19T17:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18675" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I note that no one seems to find this Roman thing as fun as I do. I guess it's because I already called Ceasar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18676" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heck, at USC if you lock yourself out of your room the 2nd time, $25 fine. Oh its your 4th time, that is a $75 fine....really clumsy aren't you, this is your 7th time, $150 fine for unlocking your door. Oh, your guest lost his pass and wants his ID back? $75 fine!<br />Heck we didn't even fine you that much if you smoked in the dorm ! (and that was the only fine I remember)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yet, Michael Beitia, you won't let your poor children enjoy Kris Kringle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, there are rules that need to be upheld if the community is going to maintain its integrity, and it's better if they come from the student body. I'm not saying I loved or agreed with all the rules (even as a prefect), but as a whole they are very beneficial to the program.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18679" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-19T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-19T17:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like a failure by graduating without an hour or encounter with a prefect...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My kids and I enjoy a lot of things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lots of fantastical things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">we've seen every episode of Dr. Who from the first to the fifth doctor</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18683" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">we've read Tolkien aloud</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18684" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">we even made a totem pole once:<br />https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220031034705954&set=pb.100000971786144.-2207520000.1411161550.&type=3&theater<br />Michael Beitia<br />found picture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-19T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-19T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, those SC fines are stupid, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18686" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should add that that assumes good and moderate enforcement of the rules. They're easy to take to stupid extremes, but when enforced moderately and common sensically aren't weird or extreme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I realize that trying to defend the rules probably makes you think that I was one of those uptight prefects, but that wasn't the case. I tried my best to be as chill as possible while actually doing the job I was being paid to do. Most of the prefects I knew were the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18688" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since Daniel Lendman is probably sleeping, and can't protest, he gets to be Pompeius Magnus! Haha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As (probably) the youngest TNET contributor, does that make me Octavian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18690" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure. Sounds good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18691" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That means you and Beitia get to rule when I am murdered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18692" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That means I get a glorious 40 year reign and to live to a ripe old age.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18693" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund can be Cicero.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18694" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I vote we don't proscribe him, yeah?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18695" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">IDK, the rostrum needs some hands. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ironically, I have to go brush up on my Latin skills for a proficiency exam tomorrow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-19T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-19T17:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak could be Catullus or Ovid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T17:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FKATNET delenda est!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18699" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-19T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-19T17:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mike I'm pretty sure I was in the room you tapped on trying to get in that night. Was particularly bad timing since both the prefects were in there at the time. I thought it was you that tackled them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18700" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, Pierre hit me low, Curphey high. It was Fogel's room, and I'm pretty sure you were in the room when I tapped on the window, cause I was flying (recently) solo....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18701" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Erik Bootsma" data-date="2014-09-19T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Erik Bootsma at 2014-09-19T17:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup that was it. I remember how Pierre's eyes lit up that he was gonna catch someone. hahahah</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18702" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">except he was in my room while we were drinking a lot. Remember, mine was the designated smoking lounge....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then all three of us had to knock on Fogel's window to get let back in because neither of them had their keys</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18704" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T17:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak is definitely more Catullus than Ovid...and I mean that as a compliment. Catullus is the better poet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18705" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T17:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and dirtier</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18706" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T18:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is certainly true....o Hymenae! was a refrain of the last poem I read of his...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18707" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-19T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-19T18:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aw, shucks, y'all really know how to make a gal feel special </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way Sean, of course the school itself never hires students to ferret out sinners, to use the accepted colloquialism - however, certain individual administrators certainly have made use of them that way. Did you just graduate? A certain Ass. Dean when I was there did refer to himself as Rudy Giuliani, and his prefect team as the NYPD...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T18:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WTH? but to be fair, both ass deans while I was there hated me....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Drew Summitt" data-date="2014-09-19T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Drew Summitt at 2014-09-19T18:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">its on my feed agai</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18712" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Drew Summitt" data-date="2014-09-19T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Drew Summitt at 2014-09-19T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">how did this get on my feed again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">blame Sam Rocha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll be the demiurge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18715" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T18:31:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Drew Summitt: let tNET feed YOU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Drew Summitt" data-date="2014-09-19T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Drew Summitt at 2014-09-19T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have no idea what's happening and frankly i am not reading 18000 comments to find out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18717" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-19T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-19T18:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing is happening. Everything is happening. There isn't really "happening" in tNET exactly because time isn't a thing here....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wise man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18719" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T18:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"'Tl;dr' - Yes! That's your answer. That's your answer for everything! Tattoo it on your forehead!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18720" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean, I also know firsthand of couples who were followed around by prefects who were explicitly assigned to keep an eye on them. This happened to me too except I was walking around holding Max Summe's hand</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18721" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-19T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-19T18:36:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam Rocha has been reduced to providing comedic relief. He wants in to the puppet government though. Find him a position (although he is a gentile)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love the Lebowski references, FWIW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18723" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T18:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You really only need to read 1783. But if you are Straussian, I recommend comment 1820. #straussiangnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-19T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-19T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you read every 10th comment, it makes sense. If you read every 100th comment, it is kind of humorous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18725" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catullus is too filthy for me to quote here. I'm really nowhere near as bad as he is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18726" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#filthygnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18727" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T18:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#pudendagnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hyuk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18729" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cover your butt Bethea - Scott is watching...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18730" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott can kiss my #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18731" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T18:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#smoochgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T18:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Catullus isn't all that bad...oh wait, just re=read the poem I mentioned (Epithalamion number 62 in the collected works I have). It isn't really dirty, but flipping to it I skimmed the ones to Ameana....those are nasty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18733" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T19:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catullus 16 is the absolute worst. Investigate with much discretion only.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh that one....I had forgotten about that one....I had bought the book as a gift for a friend studying Latin...I believe that was the poem that made me keep the book rather than give it to her....when the first line mentions the act of irrumatio....you know it is impudicium.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18735" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-19T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-19T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though it is an interesting way to respond to criticism about being too vulgar...just take it up another notch<br />nam castum esse decet pium poetam<br />ipsum, versiculos nihil necesse est</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-19T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-19T19:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone have advice on how to turn my tl;dr dissertation into a book?<br />https://www.academia.edu/.../The_Meaning_of_the_Public...<br />The Meaning of the Public Good in the Rhetoric of Ratification<br />The dissertation examines the meaning of the public or...<br />ACADEMIA.EDU|BY MATTHEW PETERSON</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18737" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T19:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#bookgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18738" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-19T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-19T19:18:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can only advise you to harness the power of...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18739" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T19:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Change the name to something like, "The key to unlocking self-empowerment through the new rhetoric: in six easy steps"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18740" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T21:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . . then drop the footnotes. Cut out half the chapters and pay 20 TACers 5 bucks each or buy each a forty and have them write reviews on Amazon related to the title. Take a picture of a Coulter look alike for the cover.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18741" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-19T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-19T21:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm cheap John, I'll write a review for $1.20. but all of my reviews contain #reviewinggnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-19T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-19T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, interesting to note the contrast between decet and necesse est there. Catullus isn't denying the charge . . . or I should say claiming to be castus. Do you think he is right to notch it up? Is it just feigned outrage by Catullus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I did just graduate. I was only a prefect two years (would have been under a different A. Dean than you), but that certainly wouldn't have happened in the time I was there. We intentionally tried to shake off the idea that we were "police". Obviously I can't speak to times before I was there. There have always been overzealous prefects, but my experience is that they are few and taint the whole system. That said, I definitely didn't see eye-to-eye with the A. Dean on everything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-19T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-19T23:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, it's hard for me to speak for the women's side of things, because from what I could tell being a female prefect is a whole different job.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Stouffer" data-date="2014-09-19T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Stouffer at 2014-09-19T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to see this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18746" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-20T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-20T02:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, I just read your dissertation up to the following: "For if our understanding of political philosophy does not fit that of the founding generation, we ought not, of course, to immediately start sifting their words through our own philosophical framework and begin speaking of tensions and contradictions. One must first assume they had a coherent political philosophy to some degree and seek to uncover it, giving them the benefit of a doubt. This rule of interpretation is especially apt given the continuing success of what they created. In the final analysis, they were doers rather than thinkers. Their magnum opus was an actual government that still exists today rather than abstract works of political philosophy. Their thoughts (often by their own admission) were formed by practice more than theory. To a great extent they were not writing treatises in the vein of Aristotle’s Politics but persuasive texts aimed at erecting a particular regime for a particular people in a particular time and place. To read the founders carefully, then, one must assume they came to their thoughts on government from the induction of experience just as much as (or, more likely, far more than) their reading of books. Given this fact and the obvious success of the regime they established that we the living inhabit, it is somewhat illogical, not to mention ungrateful, to accuse them of holding contradictions if their thought does not fit into our theoretical conceptual categories. We owe them a fair hearing given that, unlike most political philosophers, they actually created a successful government that has managed to stay intact for over two centuries."<br />While I wholeheartedly agree with your proposed "rule of interpretation," I cannot agree that we should begin by acknowledging the "obvious success" of the regime the Founders established, unless you mean by "success" the simple fact that the government they created has remained intact for over two centuries. It seems likely, however, especially given your use of the charged word "ungrateful," that you mean more by "success" than mere existence in time. If so, is there not a begging of the question here when one begins with the assumption that the regime one is proposing to examine is successful, especially if the word "successful" bears within it a judgment about the good of souls? I am reminded, by contrast, of the way Plato begins the Republic by having Socrates state that "the procession of the native inhabitants was fine; but the one the Thracians conducted was no less fitting a show." These words seem intended to assure us that Socrates is willing to hold his own regime up to the light of reason and judge it objectively, the sine qua non of any genuine science. Would it be unfair, then, if a critic suggested that your examination of the meaning of the key term "public good" was unduly influenced by your evident gratitude? In other words, did you find what you wanted to find in those crucial words because piety required you to find it? For what it's worth, I would suggest when you publish your dissertation that you not leave yourself open to this criticism. After all, someone who is not convinced that the regime has been a success (because the regime's very notion of success is severely defective) might not give your analysis a fair hearing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T02:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T02:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I have time for.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T02:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18750" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T03:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Slow night? You guys are missing your drive. Only 28 comments from making 19000. Seriously!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18751" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T03:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T03:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T03:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things you should never say on social media:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18753" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T03:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sooo tired</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18754" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T03:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Such a longggg week</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18755" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T03:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sooo busy right now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18756" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T03:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am having a hard time going to bed with this job undone. really</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T03:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T03:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where are the Europeans? Aren't they getting up by now? Jason Van Boom</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T03:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T03:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is going on over on the Thomism Discussion group? Seriously? I need to go wash my eyes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T03:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T03:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: read the whole thing, as they say, as imperfect as it is.<br />But. There is something to longevity, even if not the only thing, especially when to comes to a regime form that is usually NOT long-lasting. Granted that is no complete argument for goodness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T03:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T03:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thoughts on the new rumoured appointment: Associated Press learns Bishop Blase Cupich of Spokane will be the next Chicago archbishop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T03:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T03:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And to Jeffrey Bond - obviously - well, hopefully obviously - I do not thing you are quote right about "the regime's very notion of success" even if I think we are in a very bad way at present.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18762" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not so many Aristotle valentines. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I was impressed to find Aristotle on a scientist valentine website.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, most moderns would not classify him as a scientist. Don't you think?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18766" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-20T04:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-20T04:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, we usually find that we need to vacuum the grass before cutting in Vancouver. It helps it look more green.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">10 Sam Rocha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just 9 more...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or wait, it is like time travel! It is 7 more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I count, I subtract.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18772" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-20T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-20T04:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18773" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For tNET:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-20T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-20T04:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gah! 3 more (2?) and I can go to bed!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-20T04:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-20T04:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_18777" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T04:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T04:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">19000!!! Good night!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18778" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-20T04:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-20T04:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Santa Michael Beitia style: http://youtu.be/5BtYI_OndA0<br />Werner Herzog Reads Twas The Night Before Christmas<br />German director of Caves Of Forgotten Dreams,...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18779" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-20T04:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-20T04:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Catullus/Ovid: I like your Gatsby interpretation. But how would you respond to this:<br />«Of the great, redemptive romance on which the entire story is supposed to turn, [Fitzgerald] admitted, “I gave no account (and had no feeling about or knowledge of) the emotional relations between Gatsby and Daisy.”What was Fitzgerald doing instead of figuring out such things about his characters? Precision-engineering his plot, chiefly, and putting in overtime at the symbol factory. Gatsby takes place over a single summer: three months, three acts, three chapters each, with a denouement—the car accident and murder—of near-Greek (but also near-silly) symmetry. Inside that story, almost everything in sight serves a symbolic purpose: the automobiles and ash heaps, the upright Midwest and poisonous East, the white dresses and decadent mansions. <br />Heavy plot, heavy symbolism, zero psychological motivation: Those are the genre conventions of fables and fairy tales. Gatsby has been compared to both, typically to suggest a mythical quality to Fitzgerald’s characters or a moral significance to his tale. But moral significance requires moral engagement: challenge, discomfort, illumination, or transformation. The Great Gatsby offers none of that. In fact, it offers the opposite: aloofness.» http://www.vulture.com/.../schulz-on-the-great-gatsby.html<br />As for me, I love fables and fairy tales, but a great novel should be a novel. Something more like Jane Austen...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T08:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T08:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[. . . shhhh . . I'm hunting wabbits.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T08:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T08:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater hits on a great point. There are only a few books I didn't finish. You have to tell the story first. Yeah, and Austen is a very good story teller. (There is just something wrong with Austen's world and I don't think she sees it.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T09:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't do a fourth round of Austen, Pater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18783" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T09:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here are the things I look for in a novel, in order. 1) nuanced and interesting psychological/emotional lives of characters 2) an authorly perspective that reflects some truth 3) good plotting 4) effective descriptive writing 5) symbolism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T09:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#5 is actually not something I look for in a novel, but I sometimes enjoy it if it is there. Isak makes a good case that Gatsby does #5 well, but that doesn't make it great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18785" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T09:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and Austen has the first four, obviously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18786" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T10:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A great poet has to do everything well but plot and choice thereof is king. TGG is not in Austen's league imo. But Rip van Winkle . . . . that's a great story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18787" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I'd say Gatsby also has #3 and #4, but is pretty weak on #1 and #2.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T10:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't read a lot of novels. But a couple I liked recently were OBrians "Strangers and Sojourners" and Helprin's "Soldier of the Great War". I do have a couple on my to read list from this thread though. Many of the so called classics of the 20th century are meh or total fail (among which Rand's rants lead the throng).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Helprin. Ugh. I read In Sunlight and In Shadow and it was soooooo bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was strange, because he came very highly recommended.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I have been meaning to read Strangers and Sojourners for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18792" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-20T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(206, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-20T10:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've started Lucky Jim because of Joe Zepeda's recommendation on The Neverending Thread, and it's brilliant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine-- did you read it? Am I crazy or was it just terrible?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T10:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Helprin is hit or miss imo. Soldier is his best and "Ant Proof" is pretty funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18795" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The writing was SO flowery, the dialogue was completely artificial, everyone talked in exactly the same way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The characters weren't real, the plot was maudlin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hated the last chapter of Strangers but the rest of the story is a must read imo. Beautiful story (and I didn't like "Fr. Elija" btw).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And on the back, there were quotes from the New Yorker and such, calling Helprin the next Tolstoy. What??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LIS Helprin is hit or miss. Soldier is the only must read. Good character, great plot. Not as flowery and perhaps more reflective of the author's personal experience but it has been several years. Sojourners might be better though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18800" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sojourners has gone on my list. I have an actual list, with now several recommendations from tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.nytimes.com/.../mark-helprins-in-sunlight-and...<br />Mark Helprin’s ‘In Sunlight and in Shadow’<br />The couple in Mark Helprin’s new novel fall madly in love and seem destined to live happily ever after, but there...<br />NYTIMES.COM|BY MICHIKO KAKUTANI</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18802" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anyone learns anything from tNET, let it be that In Sunlight and in Shadow was a terrible, terrible book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am actually glad to see the Helprin criticism. He gets a bit overhyped. I couldn't finish Winters Tale.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard his other stuff is better, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to give him another chance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T10:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">LIS i have no doubt Soldier is his best . . . . it's the plot choice. But I would still take Strangers and Sojourners. I have never read anything like it and i suspect you will really like it, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18806" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Brendan Hodge" data-date="2014-09-20T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brendan Hodge at 2014-09-20T10:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found Soldier of the Great War unsatisfying and frustrating -- though it had moments of interesting imagery. Later I read a Helprin interview where he said that anyone who cared about World War One or Italian history would probably hate the book because he hadn't felt bound by what happened, and I felt somewhat more justified in disliking a book many friends loved.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">interesting. I read it 6 years ago. Perhaps i would change my opinion on another read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some think it is the GOAT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18809" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Roger Schwitalla" data-date="2014-09-20T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Roger Schwitalla at 2014-09-20T11:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The top of my feed every time I log on. Never have I seen so epic a thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never has there been so epic a thread. The Neverending Thread contains multitudes. Welcome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T11:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Helprin's an interesting dude. Met him and observed him at close range a few times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Soldier is worth reading if only to understand why it is a favorite of some (but i think people's dislike says something as well - its a man's book). Kind of like Atlas Shrugged . . . . it's popularity speaks volumes; in Rand's case a wasteland of dead souls. I cannot comprehend her popularity - there is better writing in Chamber's short critique than in the entire fountain of shallow filth, the frenzied, nonstop, neverending, Brendan orgasmic, relentless screeching that is the corpus of Rand; nails on a chalkboard is melodious by comparison. . . . and if you really want to know what i think of Rant, pm me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18813" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Andy Simons" data-date="2014-09-20T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Andy Simons at 2014-09-20T12:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I post, therefore I am. Someone else has probably already said that, but screw 'em.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T12:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Novels: Shusaka Endo (read Silence before Scorcese finally makes his movie version).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read Kazuo Ishiguro's stuff. The Remains of the Day was not like the movie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T12:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read Mo Yan's stuff, particularly this soon to be translated book called Frog about an abortionist in China who just up and stops one day. Sounds like very interesting work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T12:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As for Helprin, try Winter's Tale or Freddy and Fredericka and if they aren't your kind of thing, drop them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18818" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(192, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T12:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read some of these wonderful new translations of China's classics that are some of the great works of civilization that we are completely ignorant of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T12:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dream of the Red Chamber or The Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Monkey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't read Silence but a friend wrote a screenplay based on it - cheerful stuff . . . . better than Scorcese's take.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-20T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, why didn't you like Father Elijah? I read that a couple years ago over Christmas. I loved it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18822" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T12:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also love sci-fi, which I think the most promising and thought provoking of the available genre-type works of our era. But I do not wish to scandalize anyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-20T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-20T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone know if the Aquinas Review can be found online? I seem to recall hearing of a plan to digitize it, but I'm not sure if that has happened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18824" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hated Benson's apocolypse to. Both were signs of what is wrong as much as anything, but in different ways -- shallow which Strangers and Sojourners is not. Apocolyptic thrillers. My memory is too poor to expand but that was my impression and the heroes in both left a bad taste in my mouth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hated Benson's. Just disliked O'Brien. In both the good guys were as much the problem causing the where we are headed. Truth: Benson freaked me out with his faux heroes and weird Catholic remnant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fr. Elija = Fr. Brown meets antichrist or maybe its a clerical 007 with the unconsumated love affair to boot. Other things wrong with it too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-20T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-20T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really enjoyed Fr. Elijah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The novels of Iris Murdoch. Anyone? I found The Sandcastle and A Severed Head both to be gripping and well-written.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have u read Strangers and Sojourners?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-20T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-20T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-20T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-20T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ I did not like it as much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18832" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-20T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-20T12:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only truly brilliant Catholic Apocalypse is A Canticle for Leibowitz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-20T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-20T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ A little weird at the end. But I liked it very well. Very well indeed!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">interesting. I am so convinced that taste in novels reveals a lot about character. And those tastes change over time. Not saying anything negative about anyone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Green Knight by Iris Murdoch is also great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18836" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-20T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-20T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think John just insulted me. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18837" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-20T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-20T13:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have not. It's on the list (although, unlike Samantha, my list is unfortunately imaginary).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18838" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-20T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-20T13:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My favorite novel happens to coincide (Pace Daniel O'Connell) with the objectively best novel ever written: Don Quixote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18839" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-20T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-20T13:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Proof of my being well ordered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18840" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Strangers had a profound impact on me when i read it. Changed forever the way i view a few things. And there are a few beautiful scenes in it. Rip van Winkle did too. That sort of thing weighs into how one views a particular work at a particular moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don Quixote is on my to read list. I just never get around to it. . . . and it doesn't help not having a copy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That and I rarely spend more than a day (or night) reading a novel. Cervantes deserves a slower read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18843" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(225, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel: Don Quixote is one of the great novels ... like Shakespeare's corpus, it contains so many wonderful stories ... it's up there with the Kitāb alf laylah wa-laylah (aka 1001 Nights), and Boccaccio's Decameron, IMHO.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer surreality to reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18845" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ So you read Borges?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is a good translation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys are crazy. Don Quixote is not a novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18848" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Silence is the most painful book I've ever read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THE ONLY novel worth rereading. All others being footnotes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18850" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The last part of Canticle for Liebowitz gave it a run for its money, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I think is fascinating about Don Quixote is the stated desire to get past unrealistic "romances" and stories of knights, and get to "real" stories ... and then the reality turns out to be more fascinating than any romance. But Samantha, if you think it's not a novel, how would you classify it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18852" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's a long, loooooong string of stories, loosely held together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">recommended translations?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18854" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough ... that's why I compared it to the 1001 Nights.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18855" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, for Don Quixote I like the Penguin edition. Not sure of the translator though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Borges, Nabakov, Kafka.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">even Umberto Eco can be really surreal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18858" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But those are the best, Samantha. Like Chaucer's tales.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think a novel needs more unity than Don Quixote has. It's a proto-novel, maybe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chaucer has unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about Homer's Odyssey? Did that have enough unity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don Quixote would be better adapted to a mini-series than a feature length film? Discuss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously correct.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone think the Odyssey is a novel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18865" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only if it were a 16-part miniseries like the original Brideshead Revisited.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but we give it a unity. We cal it "a poem" ... same with Chaucer ... don't we?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Canterbury Tales, Odyssey, 1001 Nights, none of those have the right sort of unity for a novel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not saying they have no unity, just not the right kind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18869" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T13:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Totally disagree about 1001 nights. You can't just start in the middle. there are stories nested within stories there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The raises the question then: what would be the first novel in the European tradition...?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18871" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T13:31:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">guys, guys, we're not being Aristo-Thomist enough.....<br />Chaucer lacks the unicity whereby one thing has the oneness of a unity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Presuming we accept "unity" as a criterion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am Ceasar. All must accept my criterion for the definition of the novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Still can't believe you guys let me be Ceasar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18875" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The unity of Chaucer is the pilgrimage: the context of the tales and allegory for our lives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, it's a bunch of tales and allegories with a common theme. That's enough unity for a great poem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not a novel, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No the stories are more or less diversions from our end. All the stories are judged in the light of our true end. That too is why some stories appeal to us. Others not. as we follow the narrow path or as we wendin off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(184, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw, I'm just making stuff up that sounds right to me. Nice of you guys to play along, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don Quixote de la Mancha is typically considered to be the first European novel. It's about a man who, inspired by the romances he reads, sets out to do good deeds in an evil world. ... right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I do think that any category that contains Don Quixote and, say, Pride and Prejudice needs some fine-tuning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18882" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-20T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-20T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why? Or, rather, how?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sort of. But there are fables, allegories, vignettes, and many other things that seem to have their own purpose within Don Quixote</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there is unity, it isn't unity of the story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18885" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You do know what happened to Caesar - right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And after a while, it doesn't even really seem to be about Don Quixote anymore, at least not primarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw, I loved Fr Elijah but hated Strangers and Sojourners. It creeped me out. Just too fear based.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe Ceasar reigns for a hundred years of peace, beloved by all. Am I remembering correctly?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chaucer is actually critiquing all novels before the novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18890" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beware of friends, Caesar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel is my good friend, so he should probably be Brutus, that loyal friend of Ceasar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18892" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-20T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-20T13:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our Caesar can't spell her own name. Time to get out the stabby stab stabbers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T14:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think i have to die first. ["Austen delenda est."]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen = Dido . . . . . . . the principle of emasculation that eventually gives rise to the new man, homo effeminatus. ["Austen delenda est."]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm embarrassed. Caesar deserves to be spelled correctly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and you should be flogged. Not stabbed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have to keep our justice proportional.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like Caesar, I would prefer to be stabbed than flogged</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T14:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a very uncaesarly Caesar. You take correction too easily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18900" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(65, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T14:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's Ceasar!! The historical record is wrong!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">snort</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">now that's the Caesar we hates. [CC delenda est]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is Samantha's crossing the rubicon finally admitting that Austen isn't that great?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No way, that would be capitulation to the evil demands of Cato Ruplinger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caesar will not be deprived of his Egyptian delight. But I suspect Caesar was master in that affair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18906" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-20T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-20T15:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don Q. is not "loosely" tied together! The novel makes several points within its sidetracks and little stories, but they are all subordinate (and, as a whole, essential) to the main story of Don Q.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18907" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-20T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-20T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Samantha is Caesar, then naming a Cleopatra could make things get weird fast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll stick with Tribune of Plebs, thanks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen = Cleopatra.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen is in no way like Cleopatra, except that they are both awesome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cleopatra was only awesome because she was the last of the Ptolemies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That, and she was pretty good at getting powerful men on her side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel = Cleopatra / Austen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stop that! Joel is Brutus!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18915" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-20T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-20T15:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Cleopatra's nose."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen is a Victorian Cleopatra. That is all. Dido redux.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because she was a Ptolemy....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because she was smart. And she had to be pretty appealing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and the inheritor of #ptolemaicgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">who wouldn't want a horde of slaves to calculate in base 60?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18921" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dido's world revolved around Dido. Cleopatra's world revolved around Cleopatra. Austen's world revolves around tea pots.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18922" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">teapots, and the equant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what Cato Ruplinger thinks Austen and Cleopatra have in common other than that they are women notable to history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In both the private surplant the public good. Public good is absent in Austen (and God is dead). I cant blame Austen necessarily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God is not dead in Austen. Read Persuasion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I don't think you can argue that Cleopatra put her own good over that of her country, if that's what you're saying, anymore than any of the other rulers of the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok. Persuation it will be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I still don't know what you mean when you say the public good is absent in Austen. What is an example of a novel that exemplifies the public good over the private, in your view?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha! really. And that is exactly what Dido did too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18930" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:28:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Is God Dead in Austen? An Examination of Nietzschean England and the Will to Marriageability"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is the world Austen depicts. In which the private is magnified but I think Virgil depicts it best and for him it was only part of that world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18932" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you mean the private as opposed to the political?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My good before the common good or even making my good the end of political life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18934" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"At bottom, these simpletons want a single thing most of all: that nobody should hurt them. Thus they try to please and gratify everybody. This, however, is cowardice, even if it be called virtue."<br />#nietzscheAustengnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pretty sure Nietzsche was talking about Christians there, thus not just Austen but all of us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18936" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope. clearly an Austen reference. I'm digging through more now.... I'll be back...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it is also a narrow minded private good. And I see no God in Austen but will read Persuasion again next</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fleas is a straussian code for bunnies btw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18939" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys are so frustrating. You keep saying stuff that makes me think you haven't even read Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cato, I keep trying to pin you down on what exactly you mean, but to no avail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YOU say the most astounding things. Like praise of Cleopatra. I can think of dozens of amazing queens. But not Cleopatra.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think I evaded any question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Carthage was overly consumed with private affairs albeit material wealth esp. by trade like its mother city and for which they also sacrificed their own children. [Delenda est.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You evade by vagueness. Your criticisms are never clear enough to refute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18945" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(242, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T15:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say Cleopatra was a great queen. I just said she was awesome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^that had me laughing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do keep them in the general. True. But they could still be refuted. I can't get into the specifics for several reasons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like that you don't really remember the books?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18949" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha!<br />"Ultimately they all want English morality to be proved right - because this serves humanity best, or 'the general utility,' or 'the happiness of the greatest number' -no, the happiness of England. With all their powers they want to prove to themselves that the striving for English happiness - I mean for comfort and fashion (and at best a seat in Parliament)- is at the same time also the right way to virtue; indeed that whatever virtue has existed in the world so far must have consisted in such striving."<br />#ulitmatenietzscheAustengnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ sounds like something Austen would say about her villains.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18951" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">sounds like what the rest of us say about Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18952" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I'm always happy to dig up Nietzsche quotes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18953" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am very familiar with P and P. The others are rusty. But there are other reasons. I am tossing out my general criticism. I will take you up on Persuasion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's just a weird criticism, even if I try to make it specific enough to understand. So people in P and P prioritize their private good over the common good? Sure, some of them do, but not everyone. And if all you're saying is that many of the characters pursue their own good, then so what? Doesn't everyone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Beitia's quote. . . . . ooouuch [QED . . deleta est ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen's world reeks. One could live in it. Lot's of good there but ONLY by fighting that rot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, but that's true of the whole world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes. But Austen glamorizes it. That's the prob.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why? Because Darcy is rich and that doesn't turn out to be a problem?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She reinforces it and romanticizes it and makes a virtue of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"it?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Darcy's noble deed is base in motive and execution. Its a cheap cover up that he can afford.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it = that world and the ends that move it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18964" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">did I mention I like surreality? Did that come up? we don't have the same problems in that area of fiction. Anyone besides me love a good Umberto Eco novel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18965" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Foucalt's Pendulum is great. Filled with #allkindsofgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't read Eco. Realty is surreal enough. Give me earthy real and celestial surreal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have all of his novels, and quite a bit of his non-fiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18968" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chaucer and Dante are enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hardly. Russian literature >>>> everything else</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, you object to Darcy helping to save Lydia's reputation because he does it for Lizzy's sake?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It isn't a cheap cover up, it's Lydia's only chance not to be ruined. It's not a great chance, but it's the best possible outcome for the family at that point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18972" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shakespeare>> all Russian lit. The russians are a bit off balance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha. Shakespeare = meh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Donne >>> Shakespeare</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18975" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">there's nothing wrong with being off-balance. It makes great literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18976" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Donne? Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18978" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[head shaking]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bah. no taste.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18980" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Dull sublunary lovers' love" <br />is a craptastic line</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18981" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">from a craptastic poem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT that is the whole world and all that is in that world. The world and man is much bigger than that. Reputation is a puff of air. High sounding one minute and gone the next. I wont get my hose all tied in knots for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's easy to say when one's entire social and economic future doesn't depend on reputation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18984" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">publish or perish?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18985" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Russians = crazy as hell. (I was being nice.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(209, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's right. That's also why the fiction is the best</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Show me deare Christ, thy Spouse, so bright and clear.<br />What! is it She, which on the other shore<br />Goes richly painted? or which rob'd and tore<br />Laments and mournes in Germany and here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sleepes she a thousand, then peepes up one yeare?<br />Is she selfe truth and errs? now new, now outwore?<br />Doth she, and did she, and shall she evermore<br />On one, on seaven, or on no hill appeare?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">good. not best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dwells she with us, or like adventuring knights<br />First travaile we to seek and then make Love?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Betray kind husband thy spouse to our sights,<br />And let myne amorous soule court thy mild Dove,<br />Who is most trew, and pleasing to thee, then<br />When she is embrac'd and open to most men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18992" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha is our new pb bard </p>
</li>
<li id="post_18993" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">QUIET YOU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I resist saying "X is the best" or what have you when the language is archaic. Sadly, (or not so sadly, I have indoor plumbing) I live in the modern world and want things in modern English. (except Russian fiction)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's your problem, not Donne's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18996" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Donne's problem is that he's dead, and not that good of a poet...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You just admitted that you can't tell if he's any good, because you are incapable of appreciating anything not modern.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's NOT what I said. re-read</p>
</li>
<li id="post_18999" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">plus, can you rap to "death be not proud"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">def. what you said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, I said, I WANT THINGS IN MODERN ENGLISH not that I can't appreciate anything otherwise</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Dante and Chaucer best and dont hesitate to say. The time now is out of joint. I cannot find sanity in the russian muse though much to wonder at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19003" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T16:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I stand corrected:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKEz3kKsEPY<br />Ϟ Death Be Not Proud~~ Rap=Poetry<br />THE Library for the World: http://www.archive.org Read a book or donate a book: http://www.gutenberg.orgUse...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T16:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Modern spanglish is meaningless</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To clear the air, the ONLY insult - and I didn't make it - was to Joel. Though legitimate, it was invalid because of a typo - null and void. And in jest besides. That excludes my initial charge of arrogance which I mistakenly retracted 18900 comments ago. Let the air be clear, especially now that the Austen contention has been laid to rest by the wise #gnosis of N.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T18:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a rule of thumb, it is silly to insult another's intelligence and foolish to insult a fool to his face. Best not to insult at all unless courtesy or truth require it. All of which i am sure i have transgressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, in the context of the rest of the poem I read it as saying that the immodest verses do not make him an unchaste poet. Frankly I like is condolentia better, like 101. His invectives against critics...well it is feigned outrage in some way. His other poems may be dirty, but nothing compared to the invectives. Sort of like telling a guy he has drunk too much, and he goes "oh yeah, I'll show you drinking" and ramps it up a notch. Or 10. Then again, the acts he threatens them with, especially irrumation, were considered not just impure (a receiver of it is considered an os impurum), but very degrading. The mouth is ordered to speech, rhetoric, the public sphere. The Romans considered it like rape, and even worse than forcible sodomy. Apparently the Romans in general weren't clean in invectives, but threatening someone with it was also a colloquial way of attacking political opponents, telling them to shut up.<br />Then again, Catullus clearly thinks the actual act, and any act of os impurum, to be disgusting...well that was far more than I wanted to say on such a distasteful aspect of Catullus...he was young and died young and it shows (but Martial, Horace and others also get dirty this way too...what's their excuse!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, wrt to Canticle of Leibowitz, that sadly was the only good work of that author. His follow up, published decades later was terrible. I think because he had lost the faith in the meantime and committed suicide shortly thereafter. Rather depressing that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T19:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">His point that impure verses do not make a poet necessarily impure may not apply here, given what he is and threatens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19011" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T19:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, Don Quixote is a novel. I am flabbergasted why you would deny that. Heck in most places, Cervantes is regarded as the first European novelist! How can the first novel, the first work to get that appelation, not be a novel? If Austen differed markedly enough, then it is her work that would not be a novel.<br />After all, the romance was distinguished from the novel. Cervantes was a proponent of the novel (Novelas exemplares anyone?)<br />Cervantes considered himself a novelist!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">" . . . the immodest verses do not make him an unchaste poet." LOL. Did I just walk into 16th Century Geneva? You guys have to loosen up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19013" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T19:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Gigliotti, maybe you should think before commenting. Those were Catullus' own words we were talking about. Yank your foot out of your mouth sir.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you need to know what Catullus was saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T19:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DANG. Its like the nastiest threat in all poetry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T19:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but that threat is used colloquially against rivals. And Martial says adulterers should be punished with it...after cutting off their ears of course....Martial may have had some issues himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19018" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jared Q. Tomanek" data-date="2014-09-20T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jared Q. Tomanek at 2014-09-20T19:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I may join in at 20K.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19019" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T20:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best poet ever was David....psalter anyone?<br />Best English poet, meaning the language we speak, That is a hard one. I enjoy Robert Frost the most, but that is rather subjective.<br />Including older forms of English, poet qua poet I must concede to Mrs. Cohoe that Donne is better than Shakespeare. Way better. But Shakespeare's poetry are, as it were, a side diversion. Shakespeare was a playwright and that first and foremost. There he has no equal, though this or that work measures up or surpasses this or that of his, no other playwright measures up to the sort of totality of his work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T20:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See how I run away from discussing Catullus who I brought up...it was clerics that found his writings in the middle ages...I hope they blushed at least!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, you brought up Catullus or rather expanded and burnt more words on him than all else combined. I am still trying to scrub those images from my mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T20:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, Why'd you delete that? I was in the process of liking it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-20T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-20T20:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha. Wrong thread. But maybe the right comment...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19024" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T20:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are other threads?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz, I already conceded that Don Quixote is a proto-novel. I am proposing a definition of novel which includes a unity of action which Don Quixote lacks. I can propose any definition I like because I am Caesar. Which, again, I cannot believe everyone is still cool with.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we at 20,000 yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, what are we looking for? Greatest novel? Let's get something going here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19028" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Y'all should see the food at this block party. All my neighbors are Italian restaurant owners, it seems. Five kinds of pasta, scallops and shrimp grilled in prosciutto, so, so many olives. My Alderman brought cannoli. I think I love St. Louis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19029" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's an Alderman, btw? Does he want me to vote for him, or something? He's very friendly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19030" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, greatest novel is Anna Karenina. I already declared it so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay. Anna Karenina it is. BTW,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19032" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, is that new AK translation that everyone raved about any good, or what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW know that when I die I shall be more powerful than you can imagine. . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">gatekeeper of . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is that? I can't tell if it looks delicious or horrifying. Depends on whether there are beets in it, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19036" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yeah. Pevear Volokhonsky all the way, baby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is marinara sauce. No beets.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mmm. You should come to our block party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's why I posted that! I'm trying to out dago those guys!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19040" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh no, you can't. Some of them didn't speak English until they started school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that sounds pretty legit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you make a proclamation re: greatest American novel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's so cool. They've all been in this neighborhood forever, too. I wish I had roots instead of being a vagrant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19044" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Gilead by Marilynne Robinson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, no wait, that was greatest living novelist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19046" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19047" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gatsby is the greatest American novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19048" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, or My Antonia. Shoot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19051" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My Anotonia is a lovely novel. There are twenty better American novels.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund offered this excellent critique of Gatsby earlier:«Of the great, redemptive romance on which the entire story is supposed to turn, [Fitzgerald] admitted, “I gave no account (and had no feeling about or knowledge of) the emotional relations between Gatsby and Daisy.”What was Fitzgerald doing instead of figuring out such things about his characters? Precision-engineering his plot, chiefly, and putting in overtime at the symbol factory. Gatsby takes place over a single summer: three months, three acts, three chapters each, with a denouement—the car accident and murder—of near-Greek (but also near-silly) symmetry. Inside that story, almost everything in sight serves a symbolic purpose: the automobiles and ash heaps, the upright Midwest and poisonous East, the white dresses and decadent mansions. <br />Heavy plot, heavy symbolism, zero psychological motivation: Those are the genre conventions of fables and fairy tales. Gatsby has been compared to both, typically to suggest a mythical quality to Fitzgerald’s characters or a moral significance to his tale. But moral significance requires moral engagement: challenge, discomfort, illumination, or transformation. The Great Gatsby offers none of that. In fact, it offers the opposite: aloofness.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Twenty?? No way. Name them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gatsby defines what it means to be an American. The language is so beautiful, and it does NOT turn on a redemptive romance. If that's how you read Gatsby, than you have completely missed the point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no "romance" between Gatsby and Daisy. There is only an illusion that Gatsby must continue to believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19056" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's true. The romance part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Quoting myself now<<Here are the things I look for in a novel, in order. 1) nuanced and interesting psychological/emotional lives of characters 2) an authorly perspective that reflects some truth 3) good plotting 4) effective descriptive writing 5) symbolism.>></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19058" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The romance is a figment of Gatsby;s rustic imagination: "His heart beat faster and faster as Daisy’s white face came up to his own. He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of God. So he waited, listening for a moment longer to the tuning-fork that had been struck upon a star. Then he kissed her. At his lips’ touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gatsby has 3,4, and 5 in spades, but is weak on 1 and 2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19060" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The power of Gatsby is contained in your point 2. Fitzgerald describes the illusory nature of The American Dream in a way that no one has before or since.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i just puked from that quote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe i will still read it again. But i have a problem with stories that aren't stories.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19063" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is it not a story? I have no idea what you are talking about. I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19064" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I almost never know what he is talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19065" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe it's the Greatest *American* Novel, but not the Greatest American *Novel*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19066" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, I think the "pioneering spirit" is at least as distinctively American as "The American Dream," and Huck Finn and My Antonia describe that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19067" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Err, I think Huck Finn says quite a bit about The America Dream.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, they have the #1 most important quality in a novel, unlike Gatsby</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is symbolism different from allegory?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19070" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So how about Huck Finn for first place? Everyone agree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Symbolism is a device within a work, allegory is the work itself . . . I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no problem with that, but I know that I will never read HF again, but I will read Gatsby many more times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19073" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I will probably never read Gatsby again, but I'm going to read My Antonia lots more times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19074" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But is TGG allegorical?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19075" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If not, what is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19076" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read The Sun Also Rises probably fifteen times, but I won't argue that it is the greatest novel. It's just a novel that I really enjoy reading. TGG is an allegory, yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19077" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW the real discussion is on Fed 10 or on Bond's status.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19078" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Booooooooring.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, why is The Sun Also Rises so fun? Is it mostly the drinking and the bull fighting?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not a Hemmingway fan at all, but it is super fun</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19081" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For me it's all about fishing in the Pyrenees. I savor that section. So good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19082" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because of you and Isak, I will read it again. And HF is ok but rambles or meanders in the end, very American.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's because he's describing the best Spanish bender ever, and you feel like you're there with him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">PEEK at the last page. Its Peterson's previous status.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19085" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hemingway is the greatest America writer who never produced the greatest works of America literature. He's like the Mickey Mantle of America Letters. The writing is so good, but it never adds up to much. Although I would argue for The Short Happy Life . . . as the greatest short story ever written. The first line is the greatest first line ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, are you talking about that thread on prostitution? I guess we could talk about prostitution here, but we're probably all on the same page.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19087" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was now lunchtime and they were all sitting under the double green fly of the dining tent pretending that nothing had happened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19088" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T21:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Federalist 10. Bond knocked out Madison cold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T21:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wait, you guys are against prostitution?? I'm kidding, I'm kidding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19090" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T21:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aaron, you said there were twenty better American novels than My Antonia. You have named one that is not better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19091" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T22:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Americans, The Grapes of Wrath, Call of the Wild, Bonfire of the Vanities, and Black Boy, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sleep, and American Tabloid are at the top of the list for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bleh. You only like boy books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does that mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just mean your list in kinda masculine. That's fine though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOOOOOOO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read The Americans, or the Androids book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">G of W!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a great novel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19099" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">quintessence of cockroach poop</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You just object to the politics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah, good luck trying to figure out what he actually objects to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">blasphemous communist drivel with paper thin characters that needed to be put out of their misery. JS tells the story but cant show it. And rants every other chapter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19103" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-20T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-20T22:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Talking about the greatest American novel might have some merit. Discussing who is in the top 20 is a waste of time. Americans are not known for their literature. Perhaps the country is too young.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">one step better above ayn RANT.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Two of the five Man Booker prize nominees this year are Americans! First year ever we could be nominated!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19106" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T22:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I completely disagree that Americans don't have great literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">G of W is crap!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19108" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T22:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">East of Eden is crap. G of W is amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-20T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-20T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your Androids book is going on my list. Good title.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-20T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-20T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record... My Antonia is in the top ten... Or the top five...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IDK I run hot/cold on Steinbeck.... but GofW is .. . something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never read my Anotonia...it sound like chick-lit....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19113" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a sixth (yes, you read that right) generation native Californian, so my love for G of W could be biased.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19114" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My Antonia has a whole wedding party eaten by a horde of ravenous wolves. Peter Jackson could have a field day with that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of Cather, I cry every time I read "A Wagner Matinee."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-20T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-20T23:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was a great choice of topic. For sure but that took an aimless turn like a wandering turtle. Can you say what the point was?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19117" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both "Wise Blood" and "The Violent Bear it Away" are great American novels. As is a lot by Chaim Potok.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19118" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My Name is Asher Lev is a great American Novel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19119" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">DUDE! The Chosen is an amazing American Novel. Another book I could read over and over until I die,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">POTOK!!!! I love it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So psyched he is getting love on a TAC thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Potok was required reading at my high school for AP English.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Every teenage boy should read The Chosen. Modernism vs. Tradition, Father vs. The World. It's epic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19124" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Totally blew my mind when I was 16.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19125" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">they tried to ruin it by making it about "Jewishness" but as I re-read it as an adult I saw the themes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19126" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is, secondarily, about Jewishness; and I appreciate that. But the coming of age themes are beautifully drawn.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">see that's what they ruined. The Jewishness is the backdrop for the more important, and universal theme of growing up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TACers should do a Potok book club. I would love to hear all the opinions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19129" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would love to do it. I have all his books already on my shelf...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Orthodox Judaism is a terrific window through which to view ACTUAL tradition. I mean living, breathing Tradition with a capital T.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19131" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My bedside table resembles midtown Manhattan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, where do you live?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just a hair south of Chicago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A ha! I went to N'western Law. Lived in Chicago from 93-00.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">been here 02-present</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I grew up (mostly) in southwestern Idaho</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19137" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm in LA which is my native country. Anyhow, my wife is at a school function. I just got the last of the brood down to bed. I'm going to get hammered. Pax, TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-20T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-20T23:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Already ahead of you (two hours and hammeredness..... was at the church campfire where we all sneak in booze to the Chicago park district....)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19139" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wife and I had a trying week. Came home from TJ's yesterday with enough booze to take down pledge week at the University of Arizona. She just nodded gratefully.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19140" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-20T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-20T23:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grapes of Wrath was loathsome to me. <br />I consider California to be my native country, particularly Southern California. But the California that I, my father and his father before him were born in is not the same California as now. Even in the last 6 years, remnants traditional California culture has almost been annihilated in Los Angeles county. I weep since it is no more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19141" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The decline of California is the great tragedy of my life. One day, someone will write the Great California Novel. It will track the decline Joshua describes above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19142" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-20T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(233, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-20T23:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of the great California books (non-fiction) is Hells Angels by Hunter Thompson. Describes California in beautiful elegiac language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19143" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T08:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T08:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Na Servus! So many things to disagree with... A few numbered points:<br />1) Don Quixote is not properly speaking a novel, though it is a precursor of the novel—the novel's John the Baptist if you will. The novel properly speaking requires a certain diffusion of Cartesianism in the general culture. (Cf: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../post-novelistic-age/) The first novel is Robinson Crusoe.<br />Post-Novelistic Age<br />Essays by novelists lamenting the de-throning of the novel as the preeminent narrative art form of our culture have...<br />SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19144" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T00:52:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">2) John Ruplinger, your reading of Jane Austen is even worse than your reading of Newman. The primacy of the common good is one of the main themes in Austen. Austen uses the modern, individualistic form of the novel, but she uses it to describe and affirm the attempt to find ways in which the life of virtue ordered to authentic common goods can survive in the modern world. Thus Emma is all about Emma learning to serve the common good of her village, rather than her own amusement. Pride and Prejudice is about the the respective vices of the aristocracy (pride and vanity) and the middle class (small mindedness, putting the private before the common, lack of understanding for aristocratic virtue), and the resolution comes from Miss Elizabeth and Mr Darcy forming a family of gentlefolk who will have the virtues necessary to really help others participate in common goods.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19145" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T00:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also Mansfield Park is all about the virtue of constancy needed to foster the common good of a family, and of the extended community around a great house against the ravages of fashionable modernity. (Cf. MacIntyre).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19146" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T01:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">3) Actually, never mind... I'm going to go break fast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19147" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T01:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's Sunday after all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you sure that Austen and Newman haven't led you to post virtue, Cartesian modernism? Wasn't there a passage about that in Pascendi? Maybe I am too hard on Austen. But whenever I start coming around, then someone comes along praising Mr. Icantwritebutpretendto who calls for "bombs, bombs" and prophesies the red "deluge". How did that become acceptable literature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What makes Austen great is, I think, hard to notice and point out to someone else: it's a certain balance in the action and the presentation of the action. Other novelists may be more exciting or more thought provoking, but Austen balances everything optimally: think Mozart as compared to Beethoven (exciting) or Bach (cerebral).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T01:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And another beef with Austen is that her hero and heroine emerge with a more refined pride and prejudice in the end. Does she teach the reader to be condescending and prejudicial to aristocrats at all? Isn't Liz condescending to Darcy's aunt and prejudicial? Do they really overcome these faults?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Langley. I am not unappreciative of her art. There are deeper flaws. MacIntyre confirms these lacunae. What is the virtue contrary to pride? Prejudice?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19152" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">She overcomes her prejudice toward aristocracy by falling in love with Darcy. Her despising Lad Catherine is just justice; Lady Catherine embodies everything that can go wrong with aristocracy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19153" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And my whole point was that Austen is against Cartesian modernism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19154" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's MacIntyre, by the way: http://www.scribd.com/.../Alasdair-MacIntyre-on-Jane-Austen<br />Alasdair MacIntyre on Jane Austen<br />An excerpt from After Virtue (http://www.scribd.com/doc/149998537/After-Virtue-McIn...<br />SCRIBD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't Austen pick apart her characters with greater precision than Liz and teach the reader to do the same, inculcating a refined unnoticed condescension?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Refined condescension is good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But note Mr. Knightley reprimanding Emma for mocking Miss Bates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen is against mocking the parvula Dei, but she shows a way of appreciating their ridiculous side all the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19159" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"refined condescension is good", spoken like a true Austenian aristocrat. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19161" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That quote is from one of the bad guys (David Miller), but he proves the point by opposition to it. Condescension is a true aristocratic virtue, and only in modernity does it come to be seen as a vice. Austen shows the difference between true and false condescension.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can't see pics here. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just a sec. Let me do OCR.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19165" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">«By Jane Austen’s time, condescension is viewed more ambiguously. Readers (or viewers) of Pride and Prejudice will remember the appalling Mr. Collins, who is forever praising the condescension of his patron, Lady Catherine de Burgh. Collins is both a comic and a pathetic figure, and Austen's characterization is plainly a satirical one, but she is describing a moral world in which it was still possible to regard condescension as a virtue. Today it is not possible: to describe someone as condescending is to condemn him or her. Condescension is a vice because there are no legitimate “privileges of superiority” from which to depart, and so someone who behaves in a condescending way is claiming a superior status to which he is not entitled. The progressive acceptance of social equality as an ideal, I am suggesting, could be roughly measured by tracing the moral passage of the concept of condescension from virtue to vice.» http://books.google.at/books?id=y2wMzJtEZ_8C&lpg=PA240...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT I maintain that Austen does not understand nor can she the virtue of humility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19167" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Emma is largely about Emma learning humility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and i will grant a place for condescion as necessary to one's state or office.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19169" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also Fanny in Mansfield Park is a heroine of true humility, who is then fittingly exalted. A Marian heroine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then i should look at that before Persuasion. But can you cite humility in P and P?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19171" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, P & P is maybe a little harder, but certainly both Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy have to be cured of pride.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ahhh but there is the best kind of humility shown or near it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is still a corrupt society. . . . . . Pelagian if you will</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For once you agree with Newman, and it's where I disagree with him. (He too thought Austen Pelagian).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To repent of one's sins but that is first to God for against Him alone have we sinned. (re humility)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19176" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you are worse than Newman. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the Newman quote with which I most violently disagree:<br />«I have been reading "Emma". Everything Miss Austen writes is clever, but I desiderate something. There is a want of <i>body</i> to the story. The action is frittered away in over-little things. There are some beautiful things in it. Emma herself is the most interesting to me of all her heroines. I feel kind to her whenever I think of her. But Miss Austen has no romance - none at all. What vile creatures her parsons are! she has not a dream of the high Catholic ethos. That other woman, Fairfax is a dolt - but I like Emma.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19178" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19180" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T02:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok. So Newman and Nietchze are on my side. I surrender.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19181" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T02:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer Twain's critique which is really a critique of himself:<br />«Whenever I take up “Pride and Prejudice” or “Sense and Sensibility,” I feel like a barkeeper entering the Kingdom of Heaven. I mean, I feel as he would probably feel, would almost certainly feel...barkeepers are like everybody else—it humiliates them to find that there are fine things, great things, admirable things, which others can perceive and they can’t.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T03:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T03:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want to like Austen but the Pelagian thing just ooozes in Austen's world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19183" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T03:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T03:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Help, Beitia. I'm being domesticated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T03:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T03:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So much to disagree with...so, so much...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-09-21T03:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-09-21T03:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course Austen is Pelagian, not to mention boring as hell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19186" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T03:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T03:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I spent my Saturday on an ale trail. Pub crawl, colloquially. I think we were in nine different bars. What did you guys do? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19187" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T03:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T03:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">get domesticated </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T03:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T03:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"so so much wrong". How often that is said wrt novels. Chaucer already pointed out that stories are diversionary. They reveal what we love, what takes us off the path. We are imitative creatures. They are all more or less vanity and agreement is impossible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T04:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T04:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As to Austen, I am free of her Siren song again now that I reread Bond's previous status, a quote of St. Gregory (and since that dreadful parson has made off ). No, as wonderful as the social virtues are, they are most entangling and most shallow in isolation. Where are the children in Austen? Too messy for tea parties. Austen is as clean as a parlour as tidy as a morgue </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T04:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T04:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if Austen is all that, why can't they cook? Nice china, nice tea from the far east trade to go with scones, plain dry scones . . . and that's the best meal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19191" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T04:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T04:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bar tender.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19192" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T04:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T04:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cross-posting this, so as to tag the whole Thread:<br />Somehow I didn't notice till now that Joel HF had tagged me in the ten books thing. So, the original rules: “List 10 books that have stayed with you in some way. Don't take more than a few minutes, and don't think too hard. They do not have to be the 'right' books or great works of literature, just ones that have affected you in some way."<br />I'm going to limit myself to profane books, (how could one choose ten books out of the Bible, or even out of the Fathers—too much). I'm also limiting myself to books that I read (or had read to me) before my 13th birthday, since books that one reads as a child have a special kind of haunting influence on the imagination.<br />1) The Little House in Big Woods. My mother read this and its sequels aloud to us. But the first book of a series is usually the best, and that is true here. The image of the vast forrest stretching out in all directions as far as man could go for a whole month...<br />2) At the Back of the North Wind (George MacDonald). My father read a lot of MacDonald to us. I might have chosen The Princess and the Goblin or Ranald Bannerman's Boyhood, but North Wind is the one I remember most often.<br />3) The Lord of the Rings. I had had this read to me at least twice, and read it myself at least that often by the time I turned 13. Perfect book.<br />4) lias und Odyssee nacherzählt von Walter Jens. Jens's retelling of Homer, and especially the pictures by the Provensens were my introduction to heroism and tragedy. My older brother and I used to act it out. He cried at the death of Hector, and his tears moved me no end.<br />5) Jenseits des goldenen Nebels (Auguste Lechner). Amazing book. Tolkienesque effect on the imagination. But very dark. All her other books are good too, but this was my favorite.<br />6) Jane Eyre. My father read this out-loud to us when I was about ten, and we lived in Germany. Re-reading it much later I was astonished how clearly I remembered all the details...and how little I had understood it.<br />7) A Child's History of the World (V.M. Hillyer). I read this about three times. My ambition when I was about 12 was to grow up to write books like this. Hillyer is the American Herodotus.<br />8) Bill Peet: An Autobiography. I read this when I lived in Indiana, as Peet had.<br />9) The Gentleman from Indiana (Booth Tarkington). Booth Tarkington is an underrated genius. I read all his books.<br />10) Pride and Prejudice. I read this first when I was 12. Jane Austen is _by far_ the greatest Anglophone fiction writer. BY FAR.<br />Shoot, now I haven't left enough room for Robinson Crusoe or The Betrothed, both of which were read to me around the same time as Jane Eyre. Nor for Rosemary Sutcliff's books, nor for Jack London, nor for... oh well.<br />Tagging: The Neverending Thread (why won't the tag work, Facebook?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19193" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T04:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T04:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does Austen ever mention scones? I don't remember any such passage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19194" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T04:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T04:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are criticizing the straw-doll of Austen, not Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T04:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T04:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">She does however mention porter (as in porter's ale, stout) and cold beef.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T05:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T05:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen is scorned because her promoters seem to assert that she portrays the full flourishing of human virtue. But she does not. Be more modest in praise and the uncouth might be less condesceoding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19197" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T05:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T05:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This discussion on Austen has made me return to my absynthe drinking...now the bottle is empty!<br />Instead of buying a couple of books on analogy, I should have bought more booze! Curses</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T05:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T05:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^edited. I will try to play nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19199" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T05:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T05:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">O Lord let me be submissive to my superiors and condescending to my inferiors!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19200" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T05:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T05:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW Pater I believe Twain is knocking Austen. He was anti aristocratic. In his mind the bartender would hate heaven being the servant of the devil's liquor. Likewise Twain hates all the so called fine things being through and through democrat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T05:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T05:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That makes Twain, Newman and Nietchze.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19202" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T08:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T08:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love it when Pater Edmund drops by and argues all my points for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19203" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T08:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T08:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish you would stop talking about tea parties, John. It is the most straw filled of your straw man arguments against Austen. There are balls, shooting parties, picnics, and dinners in Austen, but I can't think of a single tea party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19204" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-21T08:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-21T08:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr Berquist said Emma was one of the best books.... I think it was him... If not I'm just promoting another TAC rumor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T08:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T08:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rabbits. rabbits. ....rabbits</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T09:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are now some sad gaps in my #gnosis what is the rabbits thing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eh. Michael originally argued that Jane Austen is like a painter who portrays rabbits excellently. She is good at the technical, but her subject is small and boring, is the idea. There have been many non-sensical riffs on this theme over the last 10,000 comments or so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19208" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I specifically compared her to Albrecht Durer, thank you very much, who happens to be one of my favorite painters<br />#IhavewrittenandIhavenotwrittengnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19209" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He also called John Donne "craptastic," so we obviously don't have to listen to him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19210" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you just fear my neologisms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-21T09:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-21T09:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I return (sort of) and what has happened?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19212" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I fear no neologisms. I am a greater user of neologisms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HA! that's a boooold claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19214" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T09:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">«First come the Neologisms, that are afraid of no man; fresh, young, hearty, and for the most part very long-limbed, though some few short and strong. There also are the Misprints to confuse the enemy at his onrush. Then see upon the flank a company of picked Ambiguities covering what shall be a feint by the squadron of Anachronisms led by old Anachronos himself; a terrible chap with nigglers and a great murderer of fools.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-21T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-21T09:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, call me domesticated again and I'll sock you in your gd face and you'll stay plastered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19216" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-21T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-21T09:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, I can't be Brutus, I'm not a republican.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's wrong with being domesticated? I like indoor plumbing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-21T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-21T09:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia, mostly I was making an obscureish reference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19219" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough. But I really don't understand what is so disagreeable when one writes that Austen is great, just not as thematically great as other writers. Is that really that controversial?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When you (or anyone) use "domestic" in a slighting way, I get cranky.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't use domestic in a slighting way. See above comment. Domesticity is great. I get square meals, indoor plumbing. . . etc. it beats hunter/gathering</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19222" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I don't agree that her subjects are small. They are not epic, or perhaps very sweeping, but they are not small.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19223" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Small is different from "thematically great" which is the phrase I actually used<br />#strawmangnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what sense are you using "great" if not as opposed to small?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19225" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">deep as opposed to shallow? Sweeping as opposed to particular? Universal as opposed to individual? I'm not sure any of these dichotomies fit the bill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">remember, I'm the one here with an over-fondness for Russian literature. Whatever anyone can say about the Russians, they (usually) tackle the largest themes they can. I don't see that as much in Austen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T09:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you read the MacIntyre excerpt, Michael? http://www.scribd.com/.../Alasdair-MacIntyre-on-Jane-Austen<br />Alasdair MacIntyre on Jane Austen<br />An excerpt from After Virtue (http://www.scribd.com/doc/149998537/After-Virtue-McIn...<br />SCRIBD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did when you (or someone) referenced it before</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are not "the one" with an over-fondness for Russian literature. I assume we all have an over-fondness for Russian literature, except John who hates everything except the Aenead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-21T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-21T09:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Russians tackle larger themes. Do any Anglo novels (that reasonable could be said to be better than Austen) also do so?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Katie has the over-fondness. But I'm pretty sure my collection is pretty large.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19233" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T09:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So themes: human action leading to happiness or misery, virtue, the common good, etc. Big themes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">always in a more particular way Pater, and I'm not the one who said Austen wasn't great.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't force me to defend a position I never took</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're lucky tNET is far too long for me to go dig up your comments and prove that you are being disingenuous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Better than Austen...... I am partial to Potok</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19238" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mansfield Park is probably about as big as Ithaca...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">haven't read that one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19240" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Potok is lovely but not in the same league as Austen</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">anti-semite (JOKE)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Orwell is a great writer....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19243" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So we're all agreed that Austen is a great writer, and the fact that she doesn't take any climactic upheavals in society as her subjects in no way detracts from her greatness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Excellent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19245" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you can't dig up evidence for me being disingenuous, I have said the same things every time the Austen thing comes up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19246" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-21T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-21T09:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Orwell wrote an hilarious review of That Hideous Strength: http://www.lewisiana.nl/orwell/<br />LEWISIANA: George Orwell on C. S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength<br />Manchester Evening News, 16 August 1945. Reprinted in The Complete Works of George Orwell, ed. Peter Davison, Vol. XVII (1998), No. 2720 (first half), pp. 250251<br />LEWISIANA.NL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(66, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a just criticism (I hate Lewis' writing, is that another black mark?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19248" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That Hideous Strength is terrible. I love CS Lewis as much as the next person, but let's call a spade a spade.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19249" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, I didn't care for the first two of the Space Trilogy either</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19250" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we all (Samantha) agree that Albrecht Durer is a great painter, and his paintings of rabbits in no way detract from his greatness?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can agree on that as long as we aren't drawing any analogies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19252" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T09:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't annoy the true worshipers at the altar of Austen, Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19253" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha! I found one! <<If Austen is about freedom I'd rather be a natural slave (as was accused earlier....) <br />Freedom.... pshaw.... freedom to be banal>></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19254" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am now extremely resentful that Michael made me hit "show previous comments" about ten times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(53, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T09:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You called Austen banal! J'accuse!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T09:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T09:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I stand by that - thematically</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19257" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T10:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and contextually, you have misread it as an Austen criticism, instead of a criticism of Capitalist "bootstrapping" you're going to have to hit "show previous comments" a few more times to find damning evidence....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19258" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T10:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">you monster</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19259" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T10:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">holy moses, only made it a couple thousand back. I give up. you win. keep denying your crimes against Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you always take everything in the worst way. Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T10:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">obviously domesticated rabbits are charming and endearing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19262" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T10:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">craptastic is an expletive of surprise and praise and wonder at the same time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T10:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I ONLY objected to Beitia saying Russian novelists are better than EVERYone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T10:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Joel is not charming or endearing." . . . Is that what you want me to say, Joel? Can't a guy compliment manners and society without getting beat up? Never seen such rude domesticated rabbits and condescending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19265" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T12:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grand themes in Austen: Longsuffering or "How my sister got the sniffles and the hem of my dress was soiled". Magnanimity or "When the new neighbor condescended to visit and my heart went aflutter". . . etc. Homeric</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T11:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like that Orwell review, and I agree that Lewis seemed to overuse allegory / deus ex machina in his novels. <br />I guess I prefer tragedy, where virtues are not set on a pedestal but rather are identified through their falling away from some ideal. He train wreck of consequences makes the story fun to read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19267" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-21T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-21T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Austen is divine. Magnificent insight into human persons. Especially women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19268" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T14:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ do you mean only women </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19269" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T14:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Back to theses: "After virtue: how Austen's virtues of the trifling led to Nietchze concluding God is dead, Henry James' amorality, Twain's cynicism, and Newman's modernism." </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19270" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T14:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"How tea party virtue drove men (Joshua Kenz) to find absynthe and the spread of drunkenness, eventually leading to prohibition and more tea-totalling"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LIS, I am ok with Austen. Please, just knock out the great stuff. She's not the epiphany of all virtue. If you push, I feel suffocated or like a bull on the verge of becoming a steer. Know what I mean? I try to be nice; it's so hard. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ruplinger, when was the last time you read Austen, in fairness?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19273" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T14:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I go to Mass you there's only 20 new comments? Now who is the monster....?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew Dugandzic" data-date="2014-09-21T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Dugandzic at 2014-09-21T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, speaking of these theses (unendingly), where are they published? Ie, is there a place where I can access them?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19275" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T14:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TAC has them in the library, at least in some boxes upstairs last I knew of....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew Dugandzic" data-date="2014-09-21T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Dugandzic at 2014-09-21T14:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">womp</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fairness, I taught P and P a few years ago. I poured over the text and found that it wasn't as deep as I had thought. BUT I should read it again. The discussion has been helpful and at times I am overstating my case. NEVERTHELESS, Austen while good is not as great as advertized and may even be flawed. On top of that I have a terrible memory. I am reeeeeaaaally not that big on the whole novel genre. I think she is one of the very best in it. So "ok" for me means "good" to "great" for others. Joshua Kenz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Joshua Kenz, in fairness, did you read all of Beitia's remarks above as well as Pater Edmund and my exchange?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If having to admit you misjudged an artist makes you feel emasculated, that's too bad. She is great, and she doesn't have to be the epiphany of all virtue to be so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's what some claim ^^^^^!!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think anyone has claimed that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The epiphany of all virtue?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, let's talk about something else. Caleb has a blog post with his project coming out this week about whether "Think for yourself" is actually good advice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you think? Is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All I asserted above was that Austen's focus is mainly on the social virtues. Will any say that she is presenting magnanimity or the full scope of virtue? All I've asserted is that she reveals some part of human nature and not all aspects. Will any entertain greater scope? If we admit that her aim is more to present feminine virtue, I am fine. And have so stated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Think for yourself" -- what do you mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"feminine virtue?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19288" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope. can't move on yet. changed my mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She is trying to impose "feminine virtue" on men, no????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">social virtues are "feminine virtues?" Are you claiming that it doesn't matter how men relate to one another?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19292" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">define your terms, sir</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't say that. However, the virtues Austen shows are more the domain of women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am done arguing. Arguing is not a feminine virtue ..........</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">....... it's a vice too often</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and we can quickly descend now to the abysss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does "think for yourself" mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. You said Austen deals with "social virtues" and that the virtues she shows are more the domain of women. So, "social virtues" are more the domain of women, according to you. That is indefensible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">then I won't defend it. ^^^^ that's "just dumb"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is "think for yourself"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Furthermore, you have been extremely critical and dismissive of Austen, so if your real complaint is that her books portray "feminine virtues" then you must not think very highly of these supposed "feminine virtues"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I do think highly of them........ only not when men only engage in them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are these "feminine virtues" you are talking about, then? Again, are you saying men are not supposed to have "social virtues?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact scroll up. I said the social virtues IN ISOLATION are offputting. Austen is offputting to many men because they are a bit isolated and not manly. Do I need to prove this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOT AT ALL. (to your comment)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're not reading what I write.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Social virtues are important but more important for women than men. And women can use their household as a training ground for the beasts in such.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For those men who lack them. ....... which is most.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you heard of the unity of the virtues?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And who has that?? pray tell?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What of reverence for the sacred in Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are social virtues more important for women than men?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BECAUSE THEY ARE QED</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Think for yourself" -- what virtues are more feminine? what more masculine?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're the one throwing around the term "feminine virtues" like you know what it means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you deny there are such, we really have NOTHING to discuss because the point is that Austen's men are a tad too womanly. That is why so many men take offense at Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19319" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#virtuegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does not mean that women and men do not share in ALL the virtues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are using the term dismissively, possibly without actually knowing what you mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only that the men accentuate some more than others; women others. But this is obvious............. no not dismissive at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19323" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would be more horrified (and am) at portraying a bunch of testosterone pumped women. Amazons are not natural as the etymology of the word indicates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your entire critique of Austen apparently comes down to the fact that she focuses on "feminine virtues," and according to you that seems to be a fatal flaw. So how is the term not dismissive?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I didn't say fatally flawed. I have said what I said many times now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">again ignored</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19327" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You didn't say fatally flawed, but you have said enough derisive things to make your attitude plain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's dismissive to say that a man is not a woman. That a woman should not strut about like a man. It's dismissive to say that Austen's men are somewhat feminine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MY ATTITUDE changes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">precisely as folks who defend Austen, claim there is no flaw at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If we limit our praise of Austen to the scope of the world she depicts, fine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If we deride those more Homeric loving men for not liking Austen, I think that is to not ackowledge that Austen is not investigating the more manly VIRtues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's pretty obvious what's going on here. I think I'm out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what is "think for yourself" mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, ANYONE. What did I say that was offensive here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's kinda funny, I thought that the "social virtues" like justice were the greatest of the moral virtues because they are directly ordained to the common good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How so? Since the social virtues are in the private sphere?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would social graces help you to understand? Affability, amiability, hospitality?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes John, I saw what you said could be taken offensively. Why would you say that social virtues are more important for women than men? <br />Leadership relies on social virtues, which is not feminine or manly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19340" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Adam Woodward" data-date="2014-09-21T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adam Woodward at 2014-09-21T16:17:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, at over 19,000 posts, you could just just take this thread and recopy it as a short novel. Add some typesetting and good layout and you could market it as a stream-of-consciousness dialogue inside the head of an erudite and nostalgic schizophrenic. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19341" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T16:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's the thing. I don't mind so much if you think there are virtues more suited to women, even if you have poorly defined ideas of what that means. But if you simultaneously want to relegate women to "feminine virtues," and obviously disdain these same "feminine virtues," then you unwittingly reveal that you don't actually think much of women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did I say more important? I meant more feminine but perhaps should have said are more noticeable when lacking in women than in men.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19343" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't even mind that much if you don't like Austen. But if you think her work can't be great because it seems to focus on what you think are "feminine virtues," then we have a problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19344" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T16:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want to say that Austen depicts a primarily domestic world, and that doesn't interest you all that much, then that's fine. But if your complaint about Austen is specifically her femininity, then I think you're probably a misogynist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Other virtues are more necessary in a leader. These however grace the leader.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19346" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have entirely misconstrued my meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously you would say that, but I don't think I have. I've been trying pretty hard to understand you, but it keeps coming back to this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have had the honor of knowing some great leaders (military generals), they actively preach that being a servant, listening and social conflict resolution are the greatest virtues for a leader to aspire to. <br />What is in Austen more closely provides a guide through these virtues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again to go way back, the society itself may be my real complaint. It is the men more than the women who are feeble. But I am done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T16:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see that what I wrote can be construed as misogynist. When I say feminine, I do not mean exclusively feminine. But men and women show virtue differently. Again my real criticism of Austen is the society. As to her writing, I have many times praised her as one of the best but also that I am not a fan of the novel as much and gave reasons 3 times now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, you're not being Aristo-Thomist enough. <br />Feminine virtues are the virtues by which a good woman is said to be good insofar as she is a woman. that is good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19352" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T17:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Think for yourself is both the most terrible advice and the best advice taken in two ways:<br />1: first we need material to think on, and a guide as to what is worthwhile. there's lots of stuff out there to study<br />2: intellectual discipleship can be blinding. Which Laval Thomist claimed to have never read Descartes? (as if that was a virtue) think for yourself so that one can be critical of our guides through learning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is actually easier to discern and not so obscure. Courage in a man can be rashness in a woman yet both can be equally courageous. In fact the kind of courage a woman often required is the highest type or most properly what it is as when she bears children. It is just less noticed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think a lot of your claimed misunderstanding is using the phrase "feminine virtues" or "social virtues" other than saying "niceties" or "courtesy" or "social skills". Those phrases are probably less charged and seem to describe what you're trying to get at better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't it usually mean: be your own guide. In that sense, it is easily a pitfall especially without prior training. But the difficulties you posit everyone faces. And the role of moral virtue is forgotten.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did clarify when I said affability, hospitality and amiability. I thought that is what Aristothomists meant by it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19357" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T17:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope. now you have to go back and edit every post where you put "feminine" or "social" virtues to say social niceties. I have spoken</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"a guide as to what is worthwhile" is priceless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19359" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T17:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">seriously how many young men fall into Ayn Rand's "philosophy"? they need to be protected from themselves</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T18:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Arist. Nic. IV end: mean between boastfulness and self deprecation; homilia emmeles (honeyed confab); [modesty - only touched on as regards shame]; but I added hospitality to refer to the external things in private society or comradery for a less ambiguous term.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-21T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-21T18:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">19,584...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I forgot affability. It is true that these are virtues in conversation and living together and common life in words and deeds. But Austen narrows the scope though as with Aristotle who follows by treating on justice, in Austen the action and words fall under what is just.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19363" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we can hit 20,000 today if we put our backs into it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19364" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm waiting for someone to say something I can argue with, instead of John being hard to understand, Samantha being angry all the time and Isak just doing fly-bys <br />Screw you people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading Descartes is accidental to a philosophical education: he's more a rhetorician than a philosopher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That's the analytic coming out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have this not only on the TAC-authority but on the authority of one of the most historicist philosophers I've ever met.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is fine. But I think it essential to read for a well-rounded philosophical education, even if it isn't 'taken seriously' as a philosophy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T18:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why, what positive contribution does he make such that it's essential for a philosopher to have read him?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel so bad about the fly-bys - I maintain a very active lifestyle* and often a large amount of time passes before I can return to the conversation. I'm considering the responses to my Gatsby interpretation at the moment, to which I will direct some further thoughts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19371" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard to understand a lot of the modern movement in philosophy without having read Descartes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only novelty in his thought is that he takes the "evil genius" argument as a real problem to overcome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19373" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">*advanced pranking, beering and poeting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19374" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and seriously, I would never brag about NOT having read or studied something. I see that as a defect in me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T18:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, I think I would if someone were to make too big a deal about someone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19376" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I brag that I've never read Twilight...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">if you hadn't studied it, how would you respond</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, you're not helping</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd ask them what they thought was so important about X and then try to argue about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19380" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">True true, being a little facetious. When it comes to recognized or influential contributors to the Great Conversation, I'd never brag of not having read an author either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19381" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T18:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">De Koninck thought most modern- contemporary philosophers as dialecticians rather than philosophers. But even a large portion of Aristotle is dialectic. Maybe many of the moderns were trying to reinvent the wheel- there is something to be said of the post-moderns here.<br />Since truth is a common good, then studying the moderns, especially someone like Descartes, serves not only to elucidate truth by comparison with error, but is also necessary in order to engage and share truth. And there are true insights in many of the better moderns and contemporaries.<br />Dang, I wrote an article on the necessity to study the moderns while at my job the other night...maybe I should type it up.<br />Here is a controversial thing....Duane Berquist is wrong in his definition of philosopher. He opposes the nominal or etymological definition to the current use. But he misses the proper use of the term. One may be a lover of wisdom and not be a philosopher after all....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19382" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T18:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not angry all the time! I'm not even the angriest person on this thread by a long shot!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"all German philosophy is worthless, therefore, since I have judged it so, no one should ever read any of it"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh yeah!? who is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I definitely get more angry than Samantha. But her feathers are more easily ruffled.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19386" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T18:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's not the claim, I just wouldn't think that a philosopher had missed something important qua philosopher if he had never studied Kant: he might have missed something important as a teacher or such, but not something essential for figgering out reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"figgering" I love it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey you guys want to hear a word I made up the other day?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19389" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plagiarism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19390" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Emily Norppa" data-date="2014-09-21T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Emily Norppa at 2014-09-21T18:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ #gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19391" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T18:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was going to say Isak. But I would also nominate Mr. Kenz and Jeff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#jocosegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T18:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I saw you type that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, I'm not sure philosophy is that necessary for figgering out reality. #needsmoremathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19395" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh and Jeff just get huffy, I think. I on the other hand become a broiling vessel of the Lord's righteous wrath!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">almost as much as Scott....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19397" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Scott took Viagra, he would grow taller.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19398" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T18:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">see that's good work people, we can push this dumpster fire of a thread past 20K</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-21T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-21T18:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha: to answer your earlier question, I haven't read "In Sunlight," but I read "Winter's Tale" and thought it was awful. I can't stand magical realism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19400" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Dumpster fire" just made me laugh out loud</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19401" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who doesn't like magical realism? You don't like Borges or Garcia-Marquez?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can understand not liking Helprin - I've found him sort of second-rate - but magical realism as a whole is delightful!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">never read it. Isak</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T18:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read what John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T18:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't get angry, I just dislike diatribes against women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19406" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T18:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I do not "get my feathers ruffled." I become angry in direct proportion to the injustice before me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me angriest? I get angry, yes, but I quickly cool off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-21T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-21T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil @Isak: haven't read any Borges, but no, I don't like Garcia-Marquez, even though he is a better writer than Helprin. I just find the whole genre sort of ridiculous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19409" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">see you even get angry about getting angry (Samantha)<br />#angergnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like a bad deodorant commercial, "courage strong enough for a man, but disproportionate for a woman"..... I have warned a few "men" prior to their ass getting kicked by a woman, they need to put heir chauvinism in check. (They inevitably push it and they get their ass kicked by a female)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19411" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">diatribes against women? What thread have you been reading Jeffie?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry you don't like Garcia-Marquez. He's one of my very favorites. His books changed my perception of the world for the far far better. But that's a subjective encounter. Have you read Chronicle of a Death Foretold?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19413" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophy just is figgering out reality, Michael Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T19:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is this "subjective encounter" nonsense? We don't agree to disagree on tNET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nah, that's math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19416" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">100 years of solitude is a great novel. there. I SAID IT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19417" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marquez or Borges. . . . . Just bragging [and Jeff I am sorry for not having been clearer]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19418" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">read both (read this as imperative, not as a statement of what I have, in fact, read [as past tense in this case])</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19419" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IMHO</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Dominic Bolin" data-date="2014-09-21T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Dominic Bolin at 2014-09-21T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: Surely you mean something stronger than that; the claim you are making is true as long as you think all men are rational (there is no super-rational man).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19421" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, all I meant by that is that just because a book had a profound effect on me does not guarantee it will have that same effect on others. That seems pretty clear.<br />In other words, I am not upset if someone else does not think as highly of Gabriel Garcia-Marquez as I do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19422" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not demand that anyone worship at the altars of my favorite authors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19423" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">or as highly of Austen as ....I...do..... bwahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although I would of course argue for his objective literary greatness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19425" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks for the clarification. Truth: i haven't read a novel in a while because of a long series of great disappointments. Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19426" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I have an inordinate love of nested parentheticals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19427" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also do not refer to the phrases of others as "nonsense" until I've understood them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T19:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T19:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha... John I wasn't steering my comment at you, you just received collateral damage from my drama bomb. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19429" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">drama is so feminine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19430" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T19:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yet men think arguing is manly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Disappointments include a few favs on here (not Austen). Saints lives don't disappoint and Alban Butler is a great writer btw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19432" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I think you would enjoy any of Marilynne Robinson's books - Housekeeping, Gilead, and Home. They are extraordinary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of those who have read her, I think I am in the minority in liking Housekeeping the best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone besides me feel really strongly about Knut Hamsen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19435" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got a copy of Hunger on your recommendation, and will read it when I am done with "The Dharma Bums" and then John Darnielle's new first novel "Wolf in White Van."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - excerpt from Housekeeping: "To crave and to have are as like as a thing and its shadow. For when does a berry break upon the tongue as sweetly as when one longs to taste it, and when is the taste refracted into so many hues and savors of ripeness and earth, and when do our senses know any thing so utterly as when we lack it? And here again is a foreshadowing -- the world will be made whole. For to wish for a hand on one's hair is all but to feel it. So whatever we may lose, very craving gives it back to us again."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19437" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gilead is on my to read list.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">More from Housekeeping: "There is so little to remember of anyone - an anecdote, a conversation at a table. But every memory is turned over and over again, every word, however chance, written in the heart in the hope that memory will fulfill itself, and become flesh, and that the wanderers will find a way home, and the perished, whose lack we always feel, will step through the door finally and stroke our hair with dreaming habitual fondness not having meant to keep us waiting long."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">interesting. But gotta say: having > craving especially after greatly craving or long absence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and my memory is such that my name comes under the heading: out of sight out of mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19441" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-21T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-21T19:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a layman I must say this thread is quite good. I mean, I'm not in much of a position to go on about the philo/theo, but I do like what I'm reading. <br />Keep it up!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19442" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T19:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the point is that the mere existence of longing destines us for fulfillment. It's teleological.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19443" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">fortunately for me, I crave a beer, and I have some in the fridge. It all works out. <br />For my next trick, I'm going to find the hidden message at the bottom of the bottle. #boozegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T19:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I crave fig newtons, but having is not as satisfying as the time spent craving. Memories are better than reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if so, Isak, thing and shadow are backwards. Plato and Homer make me a stickler on metaphor. No better teachers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19446" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T21:02:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">according to facebook, I'm the only person to ever hashtag #boozegnosis I feel accomplished</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"know anything so utterly as when we lack it" my senses dont work that way. The opposite. I appreciate and even know a thing or person - and in ways better - in absence. But that is of the mind not sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The 2nd quote is more teleogical and rings truer though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-21T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-21T19:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ready for the next round....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19451" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Aaron Gigliotti" data-date="2014-09-21T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-09-21T19:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The effin' TNET. Gotta love it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T19:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">t-effin'-NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19453" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T20:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#rockgnosis - MY personal gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-21T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-21T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somebody stop me before I break out into Depeche Mode.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19455" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-21T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-21T20:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No John, it's not backwards - she's employing a form of antimetabole, that's all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DANG i aint heard that before never</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T20:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the way the metaphor works, I don't know. I am def. a having is better than desiring guy but i get it: I think that's magisterial too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19458" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-21T20:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-21T20:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">antimetabole, sheesh. That's almost as bad as metagism, or syllaphor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19459" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T20:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">poets . . . sheesh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T20:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a cover my ass trope imho.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19461" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T21:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">antimetabole? more like syllophoric metagismic chiasmus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19462" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see tNET has ascended to Marilynne Robinson quotes. Very good. Carry on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Adrw-- how are you liking Gilead? Have you finished yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOT antimetabole. But you had me going, Isak. And I had forgotten it. Figures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19465" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, what's this three days of darkness? Relatedly, why is there so much weird Catholic stuff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's wrong with "weird Catholic stuff"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd kinda expect, people being what they are, that a whole horde of everything from superstition to legitimate private revelation would be found among the believers: especially since the Church's book is so obscure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, in the case of the three days of darkness, it's super creepy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">3D of D is from the one of the false La Salette secrets.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I've heard about it isn't too far-fetched, given St. John's Apocalypse and other such things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19472" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I understand it, the "prophesy" is that there will be three days of cursed darkness where everybody who goes outside gets eaten by demons unless they have special blessed candles, that, fortunately, weird little groups of super-Catholics can sell you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My attitude to private revelations is that, if their is any truth to them, we'll find out in due time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then what's the point of them?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps certain people at certain times needed them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dont know if there is a legitimate version. I just dont ever plan to live in Paris or Marseille.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some of them, like the reports of Marian apparitions in the Ukraine or Fatima are clearly that way: they occur in a very particular location where the Faithful are suffering and they help to "keep morale up".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, what I remember of the three days of darkness was that at that time only fire from blessed candles would light, but not that the provenance of the candles would matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not too weird, though, especially since the second coming isn't exactly a "natural" time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, there's also a lot of weird fundamentalist stuff that's like that, it just all claims to come from Revelation instead of from private revelation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Private revelation is for two reasons: warning and comfort. The latter more. Like EL says.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19482" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"your old men will dream dreams and your young men see visions"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">right out of Revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. Fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And we are in the times of Chastizement imo. So yeah it is comforting. (No rapture. Not THE antichrist)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, what's comforting?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think we're going to make it to 20,000 tonight, y'all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That it will be short, usher in the age of Mary . . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know you guys don't care, but the age of Mary is sooooo not in the Bible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . the Church will be restored, its not the last days . . . etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19491" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you know it's not the last days? It could totally be the last days. Jesus is pretty clear that nobody's gonna know when the last days are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what about the 6th seal and the 7 thunders. . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">probably allegorical stuff from Revelation that is impossible to understand?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">7 thunders have not happened and you know what Anthony Marie Claret said about them </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. I don't know what he said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I will now google him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19497" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Protestants looking at blood moons. . . BWAHAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19498" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T21:48:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">The 3 days of darkness, as reported by Mrs. Cohoe, is how I heard it (except it had to be your baptismal candle). I figured I was screwed, as by grandmother baptised me in the NICU (the doctors figured I was certainly not going to make it, and my parents weren't exactly religious...so she snuck in the NICU with some Lourdes water, under the pretense of giving me a teddy bear, and baptised me there clandestinely. But she didn't give me no candle)<br />Trial, Tribulation and Triumph is the book I recommend here. You can safely skip the first 60% (the title should really be "My justification of traditional scripture interpretation against the excesses of historical and form criticism, oh yeah and also the end times/antichrist tacked on)<br />There are some interesting things in private revelation, but let's be frank. It all boils down to this- I can die on my walk tonight. And go to hell. So I better get to Christ now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">who is the seer of that because i do know there is one legit source?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">7 thunders = sons of Mary . . . but they have not spoken.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19501" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T21:52:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and I still have that teddy bear...his name is Squeaky. He HATES communists and is foul mouthed. Since he was my baptismal gift, would he work against demons during the three days? Nah, he would probably just call them (censored) communists. And spit at them.<br />He also has a terrible cigar and beer habit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-21T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-21T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, taking it slow. No more than 20 pages in. I read in the mornings with my coffee </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just NOT La Salette.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19504" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh many saints have spoken of 3 days of darkness. St. Hildegard von Bingen for one. But she was a bit big on crazy imagery in general, who knows how literal that is meant<br />Bl. Anna Taigi had this: <br />"There shall come over the whole earth an intense darkness lasting three days and three nights. Nothing can be seen, and the air will be laden with pestilence which will claim mainly, but not only, the enemies of religion. It will be impossible to use any man-made lighting during this darkness, except blessed candles. He, who out of curiosity, opens his window to look out, or leaves his home, will fall dead on the spot. During these three days, people should remain in their homes, pray the Rosary and beg God for mercy. All the enemies of the Church, whether known or unknown, will perish over the whole earth during that universal darkness, with the exception of a few whom God will soon convert. The air shall be infected by demons who will appear under all sorts of hideous forms."<br />I don't know; this at a time when the Church was under attack in France and Pius VII prisoner....some of it could be projection on her part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Taigi. That's what I thought. It will actually be a lot worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">comforting </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">probably should start the daily rosary ahead of time. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19508" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T22:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">private revelation is not de fide. I love telling that to Fatima nuts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T22:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh those wicked and adulterous generations.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19510" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-21T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-21T22:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">what do you mean private revelation is not de fide? You arrogant TACers probably don't even know what de fide means since you don't know anything about the magesterium (sic).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19511" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-21T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-21T22:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(sorry, just trying to help things get to 20,000).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pious assent. And yeah Fatima is the elephant in the prophecy room.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19513" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T22:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well of course not. But I do think too dismissive an attitude is a problem. As if one simply cannot bring himself to believe that God can actually do miracles. It is a disease of the mind, one infecting modernists, that cause them to doubt the credibilia<br />But ultimately many fans of these things miss the point. What matters if I am prepared for the 3 days, if I am not prepared to go to the Lord tonight?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19514" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-21T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-21T22:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This always gets interesting when I leave it alone... And then I have to scroll back a million miles...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is no new revelation. It ends with St. John. therefore I can dismiss Fatima, if I want.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19516" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T22:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man, all that piety stuff always drove me nuts. If I reconvert, can I just be a really impious Catholic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-21T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-21T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also... I'm going to go get some candles blessed now... Do the matches need to be blessed too? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19518" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I call tNET magisterium on Fatima.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19519" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">At TAC I had a running dialogue with Peter Miller, that started with talk of the 3 days, etc. I said, well Paul says the Jews will come to the Church before the end. That hasn't happened, so the end is not here.<br />He caught me in the parking lot one day. "Hey did you here, the Jew converted...ALL of them...run to the hills!"<br />We also called each other cracker and white bread and threaned to carve each other...in front of Mr. Nieto...at Mr. Nieto's home....he gave us some odd looks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19520" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, I'm pretty sure the "no new revelation" claim is a fairly specific claim: it means that with the writing of the Apocalypse (or whichever was the chronologically last book of the Bible), everything necessary for Salvation had been revealed. I don't think it's meant to indicate that apparitions/etc. won't happen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha most catholics are impious. You might improve that department.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19522" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, both the Rosary and the Brown Scapular were originally matters of private revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19523" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T22:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, the Brown Scapular is scandalous. Also, I would like to never pray the Rosary again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19524" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the Prayer to St. Michael "St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle . . ." is reported to have been written in response to a private revelation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-21T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-21T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scandalous?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19526" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T22:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. As in, a scandal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19527" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not sure what basis a Catholic would have to think that (I'm not forgetting you aren't a Catholic): The Church is pretty insistent on the importance of material things in aiding one's salvation: Holy Water, Blessed Salt/Oils.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Those who die wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire." That's a scandalous claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, the Scapular is part of the habit of the Carmelites, Franciscans and Dominicans: not exactly fringe Catholic groups.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why? It's just another sacramental.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19531" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T22:17:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it is true that no revelation after that is public. And hence none of it must be believed. But to reject all of it I think is just as dangerous, and can be scandalous, especially when we have liturgical feasts under those titles.<br />I believe in Fatima, but I rarely think of it. It is not the object of faith, after all.<br />What is good, for example prayer, the Rosary, etc need not be so tied (oh Edward Langley, scapulars in general were derived from the religious habit regardless of whether this or that one bases itself on private revelation. The rosary appears to predate St. Domininic, and there are many versions of the rosary, not just Our Lady's Psalter...and the prayer written by Leo XIII was a different prayer, much longer than the short version that was established from after low Mass)<br />Oh and Mrs. Cohoe has reminded me I need a new brown scapular. I will say, though, that some of what some TACers said about it amounted to superstition, as if the sacramental, qua physical object, was a talisman of salvation, rather than a sensible reminder of devotion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I might be wrong, Joshua, about the Dominicans and Franciscans: but I remember hearing that their habit includes the brown Scapular.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19533" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And this seems to confirm that: http://www.3op.org/faq.php (last q)<br />FAQ<br />Answer: The Dominican Fraternities exists because it is a gift from God for His Church through the Dominican...<br />3OP.ORG<br />September 21 at 10:21pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Joshua Kenz You are wrong The Dominicans stole theirs from the Nobertines!<br />The Dominican scapular is white. The Brown Scapular, formerly only able to be blessed by a Carmelite priest, is still tied to the Carmelites, the feast of Mt. Carmel, etc<br />The Franciscan's scapular is brown, but is not the same as "The Brown Scapular." Both OP and OFM (small) scapulars are fairly novel (like 20th century novel)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Benedictine's Black Scapular is fairly old.<br />Remember 3rd orders were funny thing. The Dominicans absorbed many penitential societies, but did not really associate them closely with themselves until after Trent, as a way from protecting them against the Franciscans who were seizing all such and forcing them under their rule. (St. Catherine of Sienna in a Dominican habit! hah...really was a b beguine under the protection of the Order of Preachers, lest her group be forcibly Franciscanized)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19535" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-21T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-21T22:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The claim re: the Brown Scapular is no more scandalous than the Apostolic Pardon, Absolution or anything else which can be abused. No one can know another's intent. I can "confess" my sins without sorrow or a firm purpose of amendment and claim that receiving absolution from a Priest on my death bed will save me. It won't. Does that mean that Absolution is a scandal? Of course not. Abusing Absolution is scandalous - as is wearing a sacramental disingenuously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19536" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-21T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-21T22:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">PS - similarly a wedding ring....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19537" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, anyone who thinks that the Scapular is an excuse for license is just asking to be surprised at the last minute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T22:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The scandal isn't the prospect of abuse, the promise itself is an invitation to superstitious understanding. All the qualifications that have to be added make the promise meaningless at best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-21T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-21T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The comparison to a wedding ring misses the point completely</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19540" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T22:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There were some at TAC who took it that it was impossible to be damned if wearing it...if pressed they would claim stories like "this guy was unrepentant, and before he died it fell off" Well if it is just going to fall off if you sin, well what does that say of the promise? The promise is supposed to be hopeful not, well if you are damned, it will fall off.<br />So the promise should be read as: those who follow what wearing this scapular symbolises, who are wearing it "honestly" shall not be lost. But that just means one who follows God and perseveres is not lost. So really, what was the point of the promise? Is it that if you stick to the way of life, originally Carmelite spirituality, embodied in this, you will in fact persevere in following God, because to do this is to follow God, in a particular way? Yep I think it is that last one, but I do think that many fans don't present it that way...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19541" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-21T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-21T22:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok Samantha. Let Father Kavanaugh know that. He uses the wedding ring analogy. He is the English translator of the writings of both St.Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, a member of the Institute of Carmelite Studies and was the vice postulator for the canonization of St.Edith Stein.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19543" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-21T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-21T22:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(not to say that that promise is Scripture, but it's a feature of revelation in general that it's often obscure and requires interpretation).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-21T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-21T22:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been discovering the Anchorage Cathedral, Holy Family, of late. Dominican. Rosary ever morning and not what I'm used to. They skip the three Hail Marys for faith, hope, and charity. But it's also not the Dominican Rosary. I've been looking around for an explanation but haven't found one. As to the brown scapula: this one seems the standard. Right? There are others worn by members of Orders, but the one for laymen is the smaller one, right?<br />As to the Rosary. Apparently, few Dominicans believe the Virgin Mary gave the Rosary to St. Dominic. But the rarely say so in public.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19545" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scandal = lead into sin. You accuse Our Lady of leading souls to sin. There is the attachment of the rosary of course. All that remains. But to persevere in that is not for those of false devotion or superstition. Or Our Lady will lead them out of such. She will crush the head of the serpent and that hour approaches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19546" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-21T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-21T22:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The 3 Hail Marys and Our Father is not part of the Rosary which is Our Lady's Psalter. If you read St. Louis Marie de Montefort, you would see he starts it as one does the traditional office ( O Lord open my lips to proclaim thy praise...) and the veni Sancte Spiritus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19547" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T22:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">She is much more powerful in these times than you can imagine and more beloved of God than all men and angels combined. If superstition cause one to begin the scapular, it is not the reason they will persevere. Impossible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T22:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T22:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fine line of superstition....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-21T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-21T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kenz: came across Montefort. Didn't recognize that version either. All I knew was being out of the church for a little while, next thing I know JPII adds The Luminous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19550" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T23:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want a sure path though or the surest by far. That is TRUE DEVOTION of Louis de Montfort. That kind of blows away the superstition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19551" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wouldn't worry about luminous, pray them or not. I think folks have unnecessary scruples over being supertitious actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-21T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-21T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.catholic.com/.../michell.../a-mission-for-st-jude<br />A Mission for St. Jude<br />Whenever I go to eucharistic adoration, I have a little ritual that I follow, something I consider to be a good deed...<br />CATHOLIC.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19553" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-21T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-21T23:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is an ad in my side-bar now for "crowdsourced menswear" ... the name of this menswear is "Gustin" ... probably because of the earlier mentions of Molly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19554" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-21T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-21T23:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley I wear a brown scapular.... with a miraculous medal attached.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19555" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-21T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-21T23:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wear one myself, though w/o the medal. Can say I fault some for believing superstitiously, where it's concerned. The lady who explained its purpose sort of implied as much, and I'm sure she didn't mean to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">those are mine. Miraculous medal is way cool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-21T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-21T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I meant that I cannot say that I fault...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19558" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T23:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some may seem superstitious who simply have a great deal of confidence in Our Lady. Can be mistaken especially by those without faith. . . . apropos Joshua's status.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19559" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-21T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-21T23:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looking back on comments, I have to say that the scapular (and medal) I see as a badge of my devotion to Our Lady, however poor that be. Also a sign of her care for and fidelity to Our Lord and to me, as well as her special protection over me, the solitude of a real mother. The medal and its prayer also have a profound meaning, a whole spirituality in itself - amazing really. True devotion carries it further but I would be lost without it, no doubt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-22T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-22T00:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.stpeterslist.com/.../7-things-you-should-know.../<br />6 Things You Should Know about the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel | St....<br />STPETERSLIST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19561" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-22T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-22T00:05:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">“Wear the Scapular devoutly and perseveringly. It is my garment. To be clothed in it means you are continually thinking of me, and I in turn, am always thinking of you and helping you to secure eternal life.” <br />I think people often overlook this very important aspect in favour of only focusing on the moment of death part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19562" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T00:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19563" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T00:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the constant physical presence of the blessed item close to one's skin reminds one to behave accordingly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19564" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T00:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My key chain for my car is a miraculous medal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19565" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-22T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-22T00:10:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">#sacramentalgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T00:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19567" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T00:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">so how many ages and epochs have I missed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19568" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">a lot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19569" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T00:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T00:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eh. No biggie. They'll come around again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19570" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Oleg Kostoglotov" data-date="2014-09-22T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Oleg Kostoglotov at 2014-09-22T00:35:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread should be published and made into a huge leather-bound tome and displayed as art at some prestigious gallery. The public will just eat up the narcism mixed with naval gazing tech debating philosophy and raw exposure of religion, and politics from what seems to be lunatics escaped from an asylum in the California mountains.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19571" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T00:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other day I found a photo of Molly Gustin at La Cabana having a liter turbo margarita... Good times</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T00:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Punctuated by occasional bursts of humorous truth; we cannot deny that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T00:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Post it, Jeff!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T00:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah crud... Let me find it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T00:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow ... only 200 away from the big 2-OH.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19576" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T00:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We got this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T00:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Honest question. What IS superstition exactly anyway, and what's wrong with it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19578" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T00:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Superstition is an excess to which the virtue of religion is opposed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19579" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T00:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/wDZFf0pm0SE<br />Stevie Wonder ~ Superstition<br />Stevie Wonder in the studio 1973 [Superstition]<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can dig that Ed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you check out my catholic answers link? They had a few more articles on superstition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19582" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a textual starting point, you could do worse. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19583" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T00:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19584" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T00:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha... Just kidding here it is (sorry no scanner... These are traditional photos)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the defect? Doubt? Skepticism? Agnosticism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19586" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, now all I can think of is that series of bud light football ads from a few years back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T01:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, Jeff!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19588" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The defect is irreligion (tempting God, simony, perjury, sacrilege)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Makes sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/superstition "excess of religion"<br />Superstition | Catholic Answers<br />"I have been listening to you on EWTN for about a year now. I left the Catholic Church 42 years ago. After many...<br />CATHOLIC.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this a natural virtue? My guess is yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found my old shoe box of school photos, nearly all will never visit the Internet or be digitized. As photographer, my goal was to never be photographed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19593" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer, religion is a natural virtue, ergo irreligion and superstition are too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a photographer, that was never a goal but it was a effect. Most pictures of me from my active days are of me looking through the camera.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Within superstition Aquinas includes undue worship of the true God, idolatry, divination, and observances. Actually, to these last three Aquinas calls them the "superstition of divination, the superstition of"<br />After all, Francis and Dominic both practiced divination (with Missals), hence the Gospel passage that inspired Francis (not heard at a Mass, but picked by flipping the Missal open and putting his finger down) and the motto of the OP's, taken from the Preface of the BVM<br />Undue worship is in observing the rites of the Jews, which, since Christ has come, and they foreshadow Him, are now a lie. And in impersonating the whole Church. And this happens when one offers worship contrary to the use of the Church, while acting on the part of the Church, whether this be against divine or human authority or ecclesiatical custom. So in acting for the Church, a priest commits liturgical abuses, he has sinned through superstition. This seems odd, but as Aquinas says<br />Et ideo quidquid homo faciat quod pertinet ad Dei gloriam, et ad hoc quod mens hominis Deo subiiciatur, et etiam corpus per moderatam refrenationem concupiscentiarum, secundum Dei et Ecclesiae ordinationem, et consuetudinem eorum quibus homo convivit, non est superfluum in divino cultu. Si autem aliquid sit quod quantum est de se non pertinet ad Dei gloriam, neque ad hoc quod mens hominis feratur in Deum, aut quod carnis concupiscentiae moderate refrenantur; aut etiam si sit praeter Dei et Ecclesiae institutionem, vel contra consuetudinem communem (quae secundum Augustinum, pro lege habenda est). Totum hoc reputandum est superfluum et superstitiosum, quia, in exterioribus solum consistens, ad interiorem Dei cultum non pertinet. Unde Augustinus, in libro de vera Relig., inducit quod dicitur Luc. XVII, regnum Dei intra vos est, contra superstitiosos, qui scilicet exterioribus principalem curam impendunt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19596" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T01:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(obviously not denying that there is more to religion than the natural virtue).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19597" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I just want to let you know I actually read through the Latin this time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19598" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also pertinent are "observances" (which has to do with "magic" incantations, throwing salt over your shoulder...)<br />in omnibus incantationibus vel Scripturis suspensis duo cavenda videntur. Primo quidem, quid sit quod profertur vel scribitur. Quia si est aliquid ad invocationes Daemonum pertinens, manifeste est superstitiosum et illicitum. Similiter etiam videtur esse cavendum, si contineat ignota nomina, ne sub illis aliquid illicitum lateat. Unde Chrysostomus dicit, super Matth., quod, Pharisaeorum magnificantium fimbrias suas exemplo, nunc multi aliqua nomina Hebraica Angelorum confingunt et scribunt et alligant, quae non intelligentibus metuenda videntur. Est etiam cavendum ne aliquid falsitatis contineat. Quia sic eius effectus non posset expectari a Deo, qui non est testis falsitatis deinde, secundo, cavendum est ne cum verbis sacris contineantur ibi aliqua vana, puta aliqui characteres inscripti, praeter signum crucis. Aut si spes habeatur in modo scribendi aut ligandi, aut in quacumque huiusmodi vanitate quae ad divinam reverentiam non pertineat. Quia hoc iudicaretur superstitiosum. Alias autem est licitum. Unde in decretis dicitur, XXVI, qu. V, cap. non liceat Christianis etc., nec in collectionibus herbarum quae medicinales sunt aliquas observationes aut incantationes liceat attendere, nisi tantum cum symbolo divino aut oratione dominica, ut tantum creator omnium et Deus honoretur.<br />It seems fair that some treat the scapular this way, as a talisman. Read the whole of S. Th. II-II q. 93 and q. 96 a. 4 is helpful here</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19599" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Btw, q re scapular. If you aren't doing the associated devotions on the reg, is it really worth wearing, ie are any of the associated promises good because the necessary devotions productive of the necessary virtues aren't present? I've heard contradictory things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">C'mon, people; only 185 shy!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19601" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's fight about something</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fight!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You electric donkey bottom biter</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19606" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T01:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you've come to the wrong place. This is insults. Arguments is next door.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas was wrong about...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19608" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19609" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T01:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your insults suck ass.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua , no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19611" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I fart in your general direction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The white man persecuted and oppressed the Native Americans to such a shameful extent that there can be no reconciliation, no amends possible. Discuss.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No he didn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes he did</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19615" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Casinos are a way to transfer wealth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T01:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.patheos.com/.../2013/02/white-history-month/<br />“White History Month”<br />Two years ago, during my first year of teaching at Wabash College, I was invited to give a “Chapel Talk,” a weekly...<br />PATHEOS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ding. Good afternoon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19618" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bullfighting. For or against?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Claim: The Detroit Lions will come out atop the NFC North by the end of the season. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Beitia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:List_of...<br />Wikipedia:List of controversial issues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />This is a list of Wikipedia articles deemed controversial because they are constantly being re-edited in a circular manner, or are otherwise the focus of edit warring or article sanctions. This page is conceived as a location for articles that regularly become biased and need to be fixed, or article…<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19621" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes you are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19623" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">De Koninck is overrated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, and destroy the places immediately surrounding the casinos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19625" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gilson is the only true Thomist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19626" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19627" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T01:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak: I am pro bullfighting. But only if they let you try it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sex should be spelled "reproduction".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hands over five dollars. Ok. But I wasn't arguing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19630" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T01:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Only if f*ck you is a synonym.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Prohibition didn't fail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19632" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we all be serious for a moment?<br />We all know the most controversial question you can ask a bunch of TACers....opposite sex allowed in the common area of dorms, at least during the day?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How else are we supposed to find a mate...that is why the girls go there, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19634" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^If you allow that, Joshua, the college might as well pass out condoms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is it so hard for women to find men that are sensitive, caring, and good-looking?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19636" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^My wife had no trouble at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19637" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because those men already have boyfriends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19638" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well she may have gotten 2 out of 3</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19639" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">OH SNAP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then they died and she married Daniel. BURN!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19641" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nah, isn't necessary, Joshua. There are all kinds of ways to socialize...or is it fratrenize with the fair sex. .. you really think that's necessary?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting. Pope Francis just reiterated Benedict's Regensburg address, in essence...and the libs love him for it:<br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../pope-francis-extremist...<br />Pope Francis Slams Extremists Who 'Pervert Religion'<br />* Francis makes first papal trip to Albania in 21 years *...<br />HUFFINGTONPOST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they should put on the dating game at dances. Would help the quieter people find a spouse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey Steubenville allows them to visit each other's dorm rooms, as long as the door is open...or at last did last I checked..we should be more like Steubie!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19645" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:42:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ew why would anyone want to visit a girl's dorm room</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19646" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is shocking to me how many pre-marital pregnancies come out of the Christopher West TOB culture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19647" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T01:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T01:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sh*t, while you all were making funnies, (and yours was the best, Isak,) I was answering the question asked by Mr. Can We Please Just Get Serious Here For A Second, and ....<br />Oh, I give up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19648" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless francis analyzed the breakdown of theology in relation to philosophy using an analysis of logos I'm not reading it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19649" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also think the way the girls dress at USC should be adopted as dress code at TAC...very minimalist, easy to get a man that way</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't really know Christopher West but I already don't like him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19651" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">In case no one can tell I am trying badly to troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T01:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha ... I'm still blocked by josh after calling his beliefs chauvinistic. Without his comments, the rest reads funny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19653" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have a lecturer coming here who is going to lecture on "The Metaphysical Errors of Christopher West's Deconstruction of St. John Paul II's Theology of the Body." Should be interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19654" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:44:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua I appreciate how poor you are at trolling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19655" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You must have a greater antipathy towards rational discourse in order to be successful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I knew he sucked after listening to five minutes of a tall he gave here in Houston as part of the diocese's young adults series. It was dumbed down and sounded like a Protestant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^He isn't all bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19658" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Popularizers always cause certain difficulties.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, like I said, I barely know the guys work so this is all prejudging.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19660" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman remembers me finding where Liguori speaks of certain shameful acts West said could be licit in marriage... , because, as he claimed, as long as it ended the right way, just about anything was fine leading up to it. Not to mention the immodestly of speaking about irrumatio and pedicactio to teens and young adults.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19661" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yeah. Imprudent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T01:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the guy do you mean st. JP2? Or Christopher west?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Christopher West.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As a friend of mine once said, "It's not gay. It's anal play." He was joking but I think there are too many people who don't think about it in too much detail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19665" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think his main fault is that he never really studied any actual theology...he only read JPII, and that is being a fan, nor a moral theologian...JPII is difficult enough...not knowing the tradition makes it easy to make grave errors reading him. Such as thinking that such impure acts (os impurum or even worse, imperfecta sodomia) were licit in marriage.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19666" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Precisely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would be too much detail?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19668" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T01:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have two problems with JPII. 1) Not a fan of his writing style. 2) fanboys who don't really understand the underlying issues.<br />Plus why should I care about Max Scheiler? Or however you spell it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19669" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In general, I grow increasingly annoyed at the uneducated commenting on matters "too high" for them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19670" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T01:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't that the guy who compared Hugh Hefner to JPII?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text"><sigh></p>
</li>
<li id="post_19673" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">About the women in dorms...there were some who argued we should adopt a Steubie policy...majority I remember were against it, but many thought that daytime visitation to the courtyard (not beyond) was fine...and maybe. But I liked having a place for just men...especially after seeing a USC guy come into the lobby in a bath towel having locked himself out of his room...well if girls were around, modesty would restrict us and we would have to change after a shower in the bathroom, and in general behave differently</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, what matters are too high for whom? Isn't this the topic of meno?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19675" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T01:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, in other words, Joshua, behave like civilized people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19676" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T01:52:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a safe haven for the women too to live in an area where the men can't go. For more reasons than modesty and sexual temptation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T01:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many college boys do not understand personal space or stalking. The first few weeks of the year are best spent sitting on the smoker's patio watching the whole campus of freshmen constantly hitting on every female that passes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19678" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, in general, one ought not to attempt to comment authoritatively on matters that one has no idea about. <br />For example,<br />1. I do not, as a rule, debate about what kind of rocket design SapceX should use. Why? I know little to nothing about rocket design. <br />2. Christopher West ought not, as a rule, comment about matters of moral theology because he knows little to nothing about moral theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19679" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T01:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is Lendman, when you say that it gets dismissed as arrogant...but it is not really. MacArthur thought a majo problem was being "educated beyond one's capacity" which I suppose is similar.<br />I have gotten backlash for not answering certain questions but telling someone to study X, Y, an Z first. But no, someone reads a short and misleading article, say and predestination, and now they feel they have to "pick a side" and Molinism just sounds better, but what they hold is actually semi-Pelagian and because they didn't actually understand the issues, which presumes studying things prior to that debate, they come off as fools. And the same goes for tons of amateurish theological speculating that everyone and his dog thinks they are competent to do...as long as the Church hasn't defined something de fide, I can be as speculative as I want! And you must respect my opinion, even ifI know nothing at all about what I am pontificating on.<br />As you can tell this has been a pet peeve of mine...even those fully capable of learning the subjects, rather follow the trail of curiosity and controversy, rather than restraining judgement until being learned enough. Perhaps most of us do that from time to time though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19680" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T01:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">100 more to go guys. Let's get a move on. I'd like to be in bed before the clock strikes 2:30.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gah. I can't catch up on why you want to nail Christopher West but you can't knock his results. He speaks to the culture and is transmitting the sense of what JPII wanted to say. I've done both -- CW and Waldstein's translation of TOB. CW is like the fast food version; the original is a feast.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But some people will only stop for fast food</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, once again, precisely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19684" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T01:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if you read 'Love and Responsibility' Wojtyla is pretty explicit about how a husband should treat his wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19685" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jody, I have been rather scandalized at the number of Christopher West followers who, 1. Have children outside of wedlock and 2. Think that NFP is the only way marriage could ever exist and endure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T01:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Love and Responsibility is quite good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T01:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is enough to hold CW responsible for what he says; his followers might be another thing. But really, he has stopped more people from using ABC than those who abuse NFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Like I said above, he is not all bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19689" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">o'Connell Well, there are certain things that are fine in the company of men that are not in mixed company...such as certain moral questions, advice, the sort of consolation one can take with other men, that they simply cannot do with cootie-infested girls (okay the last part was tongue in cheek)<br />I am sure women often need the same thing. Man and wife even, though that differs too (they can discuss and hear things together that are immodest in unmarried mixed company, such as the details of NFP )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^This from Daniel Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19691" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone read acting person besides me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CW isn't talking to the philosophy and theology crowd. He's talking to the ones who have bought into secular culture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where did you get a copy John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(60, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Popularising complicated theological texts is always difficult and rather dangerous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hear Acting Person is amazing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19696" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hold West accountable for a disgusting view on os ipurum and imperfecta sodomia. They inherently are abusive and objectivising of the women, contrary his radical claims about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19697" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I studied Person & Act in its entirety with Janet Smith one semester at Dallas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19698" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Someone who does not grasp fundamental principles is more likely to make errors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19699" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Acting Person is indecipherable</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christopher West makes errors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19701" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but Daniel - this is one text that can't stay in the libraries and seminaries! It would be almost useless there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19702" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, Jody.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19704" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Person & Act is not indecipherable ... it's just a very complex text (and the translation doesn't really help matters). It pays careful study, if one is interested in a phenomenological ethics that has a good critique of Kantian normative ethics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not condemn Christopher West and his efforts. I have even learned something from him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman, I had to look CW up, since I have never heard of him. But fortunately for me he has a website and he says he is totally pro, and he's been on tv.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19707" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CW has to recognize his limitations and be humble about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is, however, is that he oversteps some bounds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19709" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Popularity can be a heady experience</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19710" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had to take course on phil of JP2. I found it annoying. Everyone else in course found me annoying for complaining both positions were right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's like a TOB rock star</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19712" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But let's face it -- without CW, most Catholics would still not know anything about TOB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many of you have read the original (outside of taking a class)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly in America that is true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19715" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I say that about Acting Person, having read it multiple times and used it in my abortive thesis... I don't see "ToTB" as unorthodox, but nor do I see it as some sort of answer to the world's problems. The text is far more muddled than it needs be, because frankly that was how he wrote. Not all of that is the translator' fault, though that doesn't help, as the translator makes the text unclear on some important points, especially how to relate some of his claims to perennial philosophy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19716" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:06:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wouldn't mind most Catholics never hearing anything about "ToB"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19717" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're kidding Joshua!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which class are you referring to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I really am not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is amazing! And it has a lot more to say about the human person that just procreation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19721" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have to give it a fair reading.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19722" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have. I find it overrated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish Pater Edmund's dad would lead online seminars on TOB for TAC graduates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is an important teaching. And very much of moment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can someone explain what is meant by TOB before we hit 20,000?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the uninitiated ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19727" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are one of the stumbling blocks to it being taught in the church (TACers and other orthodox thinking theologians). We are resistant to the expression.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19728" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I think part of the reason you experience it that way is because of your awareness and connection to the the whole of Church Teaching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19729" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T02:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read the Wed. lectures. Not in a class.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19730" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think many of his personal opinions on certain points are in fact wrong....not least taking a "phenomenological" approach...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19731" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Theology of the Body -- but you knew that right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Got it. I didn't know that just as ToB though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam -- if you get a chance, take Fr Alan Boisclar's classes that he gives in the Archdiocese</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19734" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps, but I see almost every admiring theologian of JPII muddle things with the obfuscatory method of "phenomenology" There is some limited application and benefit, but preaching to the masses ain't one of them. And it would be a mistake to think "ToB" is Church teaching</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It includes opinions that, while are defensible, are his opinions qua private theologian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua -- 'his personal opinions' as in JPII? Or CW?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19737" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I feel like when you compare the work of JPII and Benedict, you have to admit that JPII was a philosopher, someone who was interested in working out a philosophical anthropology of the human person, whereas Benedict was a dyed-in-the-wool theologian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19738" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you imagine how obscure and disorienting it would have been for the "common man" to go to the Wednesday audiences while JPII was giving his TOB series????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">While of course also defending central aspects of Church teaching</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No kidding Daniel -- it couldn't be understood that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JPII's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which makes one wonder about the prudence of such a delivery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think both JPII and BXVI will be Doctors of the Church some day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19744" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Probably true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19745" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I highly doubt that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what option did he have?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A super long encyclical????</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Write a book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19749" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. Never gonna read anything else but The Jewellers Shop anymore, besides the encyclicals. I have very serious, but fairly obtuse and technical objections to his approach to phenomenology. I don't know enough about theology to have an opinion though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No - it wouldn't have the theological weight</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19751" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">JPII a Doctor of the Church? Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, no. His addresses on Wednesday about TOB are not magesterial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The encyclical would have been wrong, as again not Church teaching here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr Waldstein wrote the 'book' that pulled it all together</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19755" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">JPII said that his project is purely speculative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And is still not complete...he has some rough edges in it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Wednesday audiences hold a higher regard than you think Joshua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was trying to encourage discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19759" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are notmagisterial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was trying to re-argue Humanae Vitae</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19761" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish he would have said it [that his project is purely speculative] a few more times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19762" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">*cues Auld Lang Syne for the balloon drop at 20,000*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19763" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Benedict wrote Jesus of Nazareth as a Theologian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19764" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:13:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can reject them as such, and do reject certain aspects...and HV was a badly written encyclical as far as its argument goes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">JPII should have done something similar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. Humanae Vitae...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think anyone who hasn't read it in whole should talk about rejecting any of it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are all still recovering from that FUBAR.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">First do your homework.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson -- are you tuning in?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably with some help -- since you don't know how to read anything that isn't presented in Thomistic terms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that is fair to ask.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is FUBA?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19774" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It shocks me how myopic declaring any of the recent popes a Doctor would be. That title has already been fairly abused in its expansion, but still. There are several popes that I think all would recognize as greater teachers...like Benedict XIV, or Leo XIII. That is not a dig</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19775" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^edit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19776" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are you getting nasty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19777" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I so wish he would have stuck to play writing, because it is amazing, even in translation it holds up, and actually does what phenomenology is supposed to do (i.e., imagine the real).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read it all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guys, play nice. And ladies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ducked up beyond all repair</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not being nasty, but honest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19782" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW. We made it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19783" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, you are making unwarranted assumptions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Replace d with f</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is our fearless leader, Matthew J. Peterson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19786" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the world can agree that JPII did not write clearly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19787" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I think the 'edit' post was the 20000th</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read all of JP II, and I have studied non Thomistic theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T02:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">wait, has someone *not* read it? I was operating on the other side of the assumption...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19790" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heck, Lendman could vouch for what this means, but my paper on Husserl's theory of truth earned praise from Fr. Ramelow, who said I articulated things he had thought but couldn't articulate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am sure the majority of TAC alumni haven't read it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19793" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Thomistic Personalism" is a project for those who are super interested in phenomenology but it is neither necessary nor indispensable for answering these questions. If it works for you, God bless. However, since it requires thomistic metaphysics, it presupposes thomistic anthropology. I just don't see what it adds which couldn't be argued through traditional fields and means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19794" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That may be true, and I have no problem with that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So much for my assumptions about TAC'ers...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19796" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">are we having a "read off" here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19798" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:18:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Didn't Lagrange, (JPIIs disertation director) say that he uses a lot of words to say very little.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19799" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Janet Smith did an interesting course at UD, it was Acting Person read side-by-side with part of ST I-II ... I found it illuminating at any rate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19800" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T02:18:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">All is tNET, and tNET is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So Joshua, I would ask you to explain exactly where JPII goes wrong --- but I have to get to bed. And by the time I come back, this part of the conversation will be gone. I think Dr Waldstein might differ from your position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What really bugs me is when people on the JPII side trash St Thomas; and the St Thomas people trash JPII. I think there is room for both.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19803" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:20:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">JP II is not the end all. Were it not for some particular projects I had, I wouldn't have read him. There are many books most TACers haven't read that would be, in se, good to read. And while I would love everyone to read them all, let's be realistic. It is perfectly fine to have quite a few higher on your list than reading JPII, who quite frankly, while there is benefit in there, is not among the greats of history...and that is just fine. So when someone has read all of the actual Doctors, all of Aquinas, and Liguori, and many other things besides, maybe then I will say JPII should be next on your list. Until then, it is a matter of personal interest</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^There is. But it is really hard to work them both together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman's knows my writing were putting them together (or did I not send him excerpts from my thesis)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19806" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the need for personalism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19807" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^There isn't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exaaaaactly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19809" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My thesis was addressing JP II and St. Thomas, against a certain philosper's reading of JP II (namely against Crosby)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19810" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T02:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is only one song epic enough for 20,000:<br />http://youtu.be/9jK-NcRmVcw<br />Europe - The Final Countdown<br />Music video by Europe performing The Final Countdown. (C) 1986 SONY BMG MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, John, I would say that Personalism arose as a reaction to the neglect of the dignity of the individual. And that was a real problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19812" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was on Personhood and its dignity in St. Thomas, JP II and Crosby. I argued that on substantial points JP II was at least compatible with Thomas, as against Crosby I argued he skewed JP II to favor a pernicious form of personalism, but I also had some issues with JPII, including the relation of act to existence, and on the question of essentialism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One only needs to care about personalism, if you want to communicate to the majority of people today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophy, in my opinion, need not be communicable to the many. <br />Theology, on the other hand, must always be evangelical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not sure about that if we are talking about a particular type of phenomenology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19816" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean philosophically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19817" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even then Daniel Lendman, I think you have to be aware of the issues raised by Cardinal Villeneuve and De Koninck. In fact, I find that one of the big failings in JP II. There is a tension in his writings between the common good and individual dignity and rights, that I think dissolves when we follow Leo XIII's advice, "Ite ad Thomam" But that has as much to do with the questionable notion of subjective rights as personalism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, I think we are agreed on this matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One can only express so much in brief, typed sentences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Btw, can the FB app auto refresh the thread without having to go to notifications?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19821" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unfortunately so....when I finish writing my book on the whole subject, I will post it to TNET.... (actually I probably could make a book out of various articles, with some editing and additions....there are some lacunae to fill out)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19822" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FB app? You guys and your stupid smart phones</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel -- to continue that thought about theology being evangelical (or digestible by more than the 'schools') -- we need a language to do that. JPII gives us a new language.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19824" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T02:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, and though not used to it, found it quite sensible. Besides, now having heard from my wife what went on in some if thr girls' dorms.... I think it best if things remain as they be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^True, Jody, but I do not think that that is finally the language we should adopt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It had its place perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not as the basis for thought but it has a place in today's world. No?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, if the truths expressed in TOB remain only in books, it is useless. It is meant to change hearts -- of the whole church; of the whole world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I wish to make clear my meaning: I do not mean that Theology always must be for the masses. I do, however, mean that it must always be communicated \'today.'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Those truths must be purified from the admixture of error and confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is the work of theologians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is, what I believe, JPII wanted theologians to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think there is as much error as you guys think there is. I think it is mostly misunderstanding</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Judy, which point about language are you making? About the language of personalism and phenomenology or of the popularizer?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like said, "...and confusion."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose both John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19837" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:35:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is the novelty that makes it indigestible outside of the schools....really that is one of the worst things in his writings. I remember Nieto and I poured over a text for a long time because he had abused a word and the meaning, given the normal meaning of the world, would have been heretical. It took as an hour to figure out in an earlier passage he used that word as well in a way that was nonsensical and even excluive of its traditional meaning. We had to look up another work of his to find what he meant by his peculiar and unclear use, and then the passage was orthodox.<br />You cannot tell me that couldn't be avoided by not reinventing the wheel on language (the issue, btw, was the word election, in the context of salvation and predestination)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19838" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. Just want to be clear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19839" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-22T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-22T02:35:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really hate it when one of my comments winds up a dozen places down from where it'd be comprehensible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What he is doing is appealing to the heart of the person (of every person) to draw out why this way would be best for the human person. As opposed to HV which just comes down with 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not' (just what most people expect from the Church)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a difference between style and terminology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua -- If you poured over it before the definitive translation by Dr Waldstein, it wouldn't have made complete sense. He unified the translations (5 different editors over 4 years of preaching)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it was an encyclical Joshua was working on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19844" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He wouldn't have cared as much in ToB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19845" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't read JPII the way you read St Thomas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ToB is it's own field, or so it strikes me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No you can't. And that's my problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yes, JPII makes up words (drives me crazy; but he does it all the time - - so get used to it)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm talking about the more academic works.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T02:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T02:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I better head off because I have a class in 8 hrs. But you can say you heard it first on tNET that JPII will be a Doctor of the Church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see the need to respond to Kant and his heirs, but I'm not sure using a similar method is how to do it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It wouldn't surprise me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19853" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what he ends up doing is sounding as incomprehensible as the German philosophers to most people. And those that claim to readily understand him, more often than not (with a few rare exceptions) don't. Don't get me started on the stupid attempts at applying the phenomenological method, following his example, by some of his followers (cough...Crosby and his fallacious argument against Thomist "essentialism...cough) And I am referring to just about his entire corpus, not just some Weds audiences. The issue I had was an encyclical of all places (I don't remember predestination coming up in ToB, seriously did it?).<br />And St. Thomas is succinct and clear, at least in se. So what was that about new language being needed? We need confusion? I am sorry that I don't think him a great thinker. A good thinker, por writer, perhaps, but great? Again, if you want to study it, that is fine. But it is not the panacea for the world. Christ is. Nor is it even the definitive work within its own field...a beginning of a project, not its final form, as it were.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, the reason we need a new language is that people cannot understand St. Thomas. They are alienated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19855" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">FB is a really difficult place to get into this....the issues I have trace back further than JPII, e.g. to moralities of conscience, to subjective rights, to a ambiguation of the notion of the common good (I mean really JP II clearly has difficulty reconciling the primacy of the common good with individual dignity...he says as much himself)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Benedict wrote about how, as a young theologian, he found Aquinas off-putting and incomprehensible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^edited.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19858" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that the world is largely alienated from its history and from the Traditions and teachings of the Church. Mostly due to modernism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19859" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, what is the best language to use then? I think the technical language needs to stay because it does what it's supposed to do. Not disagreeing. Just curious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think any philosophy/theology must have difficult technical language in order to maintain precision.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19861" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, the way I see it, is that modernism almost completely broke our connection with our past culture, philosophy, and traditions. Consequently, with regard to how we are connected to doctrine, (and NOT with regard to authority) we are in, as it were, a new patristic era.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19862" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T02:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Very interesting thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We need to speak in the terms of today, in order to get people back to the truth of Catholic Doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19865" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T02:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T02:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you respond to the claim that Pope Francis himself is a modernist, Daniel?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a "riff" on John Seniors view. I think he was too extreme, but he saw something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19867" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not talking about preaching in scholastic jargon, whether Aquinas' or others (who quit frequently, all the way to the 20th century, used terms differently than Thomas). But using the word "election was a great example...if you used it as JP II did in (I think it was Redemptor...) then you read the word in scripture in the same sense...and now you are in error. As far scary words like transubstantiation, natural law, etc, the words that are necessary for the faithful in general are relatively easy (if they are truly listening and not just bored kids forced in CCD) to get across sufficiently well.<br />As far as the schools go, well Benedict had the misfortune of being under the influence of obfuscators...I will leave it at that Personally I found Aristo-Thomas jargon quite natural.<br />When I was 4 or 5, the first argument I remember having, was over the size of the universe and my argument that it was not infinite in size to my brother because it had to have boundaries in order to be a size...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T02:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T02:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19869" class="entry odd" data-likes="9" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:50:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Patristic era is not one known for clarity of argument, thought, or terminology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19870" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:50:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">JP II would fit right in</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19871" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I would probably agree with that. We are all influenced by modernity. However, I would have to insist on a very nuanced meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19872" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T02:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua for Pope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, that is my point exactly, about the patristic era.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19874" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Joshua, you are hardly "everyman."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19875" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So who would be our Boethius, that pre-cursor to the clarity of Aquinas...sure he was imperfect, but he foreshaows the scholastics....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19876" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would agree with Joshua though that the scholastic terminology brought clarity to my own thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19877" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, mine also. But we are few. Very few.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19878" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problems with scholastic terminology today are not "ontological" they are circumstantial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I nominate you to be the next Boethius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19880" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hurry up and get a doctorate already, damn it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19881" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is funny that my email (got it right before TAC) is severinus.boethius @ gmail .com</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^#destiny</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19883" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We need to distinguish between reaching out to the educated/theologically and philosophically inclined, who we should try to encourage to adopt our language, and the common man. One step at a time. And the basics of our terms (actual, potential, etc) are easily grasped.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19884" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or, #emailgnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19885" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The prudential questions, John, are the hardest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19886" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:57:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang...if I am Boethius, does that mean I eventually get imprisoned and executed for treason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19887" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">doomed^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19888" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^#keepblogging.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T02:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T02:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#theyarewatchingyou</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19890" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm all for using basic terms with laymen. I reject the notion that they can't understand at all. We need to explain when we talk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T02:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NSA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19892" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T02:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I am going to pour another glass of wine then...eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, there needs to be a re-establishment of fundamental principles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19894" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T03:00:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophically speaking, we live in another "pre-Socratic age."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^THIS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19896" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T03:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Get to work Socrates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19897" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's why I don't like thomists who don't engage with the Parmenideses and Zenos of our day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19898" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T03:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are also doomed, btw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would I be a conservative if I didn't think that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19900" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://ecx.images-amazon.com/.../51LKNcGX4wL._SY344_BO1...<br />ECX.IMAGES-AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19901" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T03:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T03:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is the best thing to happen to FB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19902" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the worst thing for my sleep schedule after having a kid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19903" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T03:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T03:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is, I think, a very singular anomaly in the book of faces. I feel like I'm a part of world wide web history in some small way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19904" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's what twitter was supposed to be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, "Theology, on the other hand, must always be evangelical". I'd disagree: theologia in se is just as much a contemplative activity as philosophy (in fact, it is such to a greater degree). It's just that the duty to teach is much more strongly tied to the study of Theology than to the study of philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19906" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T03:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T03:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are you talking about? tNET makes getting up at any hour worth it </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Although, one might further argue that only members of the hierarchy have a strict duty to teach.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a difference between evangelization and teaching, just to add a distinction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not really, John Boyer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The distinction has more to do with content than method.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure there is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say audience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you evangelize seminarians?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19914" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nowadays? I think they may need it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19915" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T03:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.... These days... Yes...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha! But in principle, they are different activities, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think so</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see why you'd distinguish them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really? Is all teaching meant to bring someone to convert, to hold the faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One, I can teach things which I don't promote as true. Second, I can teach the background of something which someone already holds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wouldn't narrow evangelization to that degree, Joshua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm teaching Spinoza right now. Sure as hell not evangelizing for Spinoza.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or necessarily dismissing him. Just presenting him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I think presenting a position you think false as false is only teaching extenso nomine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless you want to say teaching TACers Thomas on the existence of God, for example, is evangelizing for Thomism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, even if you distinguish them, the point stands: speculative theology is sought primarily as an object of contemplation and the communication of those truths is secondary: for one thing, the former belongs to the contemplative life while the latter to the active life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19927" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you evangelizing when you teach Euclid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but as I said, the distinction has more to do with content than method or audience.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19929" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">According to Jehoshaphat Escalante TAC might consider math as evangelization</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19930" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or rather Euclidean math</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say evangelization is focused on persuasion, and that's essential to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So would I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19933" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T03:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T03:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I think that is what almost everyone means by it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's only essential to it because the content is, to some degree, not teachable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the strict sense, you cannot teach a non-demonstrable truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And is the end of teaching a habitus of knowledge of the way things are or of facts?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19938" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(with the possible exception of the "manuductio" that points out a self-evident truth)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I asked an either or question. Which one is the yes affirming?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant the former.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">habit of knowledge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's incindental to my claim: if you want to qualify evangelization as something like "preparing for the gift of Faith" or something, it still holds a secondary place in the intellectual life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Note, I'm speaking formally here: I don't deny that evangelization can be more important in a Christian life, but . .. .)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T03:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just had issue with your terminology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question was actually a point of contention between the doctor communis and the doctor universalis: St. Albert held in his Summa (composed after Aquinas's) that sacred theology is a practical science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19949" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">... on to 25K</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T03:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T03:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Ad hoc dicendum, quod in veritate sacra scrip- <br />tura practica est et stat in opere virtutis vel theolo- <br />gicae vel cardinalis, quia si etiam verum in re fruibili60<br />vel utili inquirit, hoc ipsum refert ad affectum, ut <br />scilicet in fide vel in eo quod succedit fidei, fruatur <br />per affectum vel intellectum affectivum summa veri- <br />tate, per spem vel spei succedens summo beatificante, <br />per caritatem summa bonitate. Historice autem65<br />proposita et praeceptive in lege et parabolice ad opus <br />refert meritorium. Hymnidice autem in psalmis de- <br />scripta ad affectum refert pietatis, et verum, quod <br />inquirit, de deo et operibus eius inquirit, non ut <br />verum simpliciter, sed ut summe beatificans, in quod70<br />referat totam pietatis intentionem in affectu et opere. <br />Sicut Aristoteles etiam in x ethicorum felicitatem <br />contemplativam determinat ut finem, ad quem refe- <br />rantur actus virtutum intellectualium et moralium <br />et heroicarum; propter quod et ipsa quae tractat de75<br />felicitate contemplativa, moralis sive practica est <br />sicut et ceterae partes scientiae moralis. Differt autem <br />ab aliis practicis, quas philosophi considerant; aliae <br />enim practicae stant ad opus perfectum perfectione <br />virtutis acquisitae, ista autem stat ad opus perfectum80<br />perfectione virtutis infusae per gratiam. "(Albert, ST, I, t.1, q.3, c.3)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T06:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T06:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley.<br />"Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world." (Ps. 19:4)<br />There is, as it were, an inherent impetus to the Gospel that compels it to go out from itself. This compulsion is twofold: First, it is a command from Christ himself, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt. 28:19). Secondly, there is a kind of power in the truth of the gospel that makes it heard and known (cognoscere) to the hearers, "For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Heb 4:12) <br />With regard to Philosophical truths, however, there is no such compulsion. There is none in the first way because any merely human doctrine can in nowise be commanded to be taught to "all nations," since in human doctrine there is always an admixture of error. As the Philosopher says, "It is more common for man to be in error." So also, with regard to the second way, philosophical doctrines do not compel the hearer as the Gospel does. For, human understanding, is slow and prone to errors as said above. Thus, even when men hear things that are true, they can deny it or put it off saying, "We want to hear you again on this subject."(Act 17:32) This is why, in response to the few conversions Paul saw in Athens when he then went to Corinth he said of his time there, "For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified."(1Cor. 2:2).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T06:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T06:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consequently, Edward, I hold that Theology is necessarily evangelical, whereas Philosophy need not be. In theology we attempt, and are compelled to reveal Christ. This does not mean that all theology should be popular. But I would argue that all theology should be attentive to the current age in a way that the philosopher need not be. To be a theologian means to teach the Word of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19953" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T06:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T06:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nor should one hold that there is an identity between evangelization and teaching. <br />"Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit;<br />And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;<br />And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.<br />And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.<br />To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;<br />To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit;<br />To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches.<br />But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will." (1Cor. 12:4-11)<br />All spiritual gifts belong to evangelization. This is why, for example, St. Teresa of Calcutta's sisters need not "teach" properly speaking, but they evangelize by caring for the poor and sick.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19954" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T07:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T07:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">why, in tNET's eternal return of the same, is Theology overnight, whereas literature is in the day?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19955" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T07:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T07:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because you have an "Americo-Centric" worldview. It was day, here when were discussing theology. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_19956" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T07:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T07:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're in the minority Daniel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19957" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T07:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T07:49:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was thinking it had something to do with drinking schedules....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19958" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T07:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T07:51:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">and to be clear, I'd like to throw my non-professional opinion behind Kenz's assertion that JPII is unintelligible. I find the same goes for lots of the more modern magisterial documents. Thank God (literally) for tradition so that we have more clear teachings to refer the new obscure teachings</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19959" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T08:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T08:01:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">for example, Lumen Gentium makes no sense without Mystici Corporis, which requires Unam Sanctam. <br />It seems like magisterial teachings get less clear and more garbled over time, kind of like me and a fifth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T08:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T08:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^this</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19961" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That works with the Rerum Novarum series and what follows Providentissimus Deus. I think they all thought they had to be as lengthy as Leo XIII (a papal who can write the most comepetition). They could have just said "see Leo" or "^this" and saved a lot of confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19962" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T08:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T08:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I curious to see, historically, when "pastoral" became synonymous with "obscure"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19963" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T08:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nocturnal theologians seem to have passed out again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T08:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">definition of pastoral = #ultimategnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19965" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T08:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T08:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, since we've lost the theologians again, I suppose we'll have to discuss Jane Austen.....again....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T08:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T08:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">defining it is like bringing matter amd antimatter into contact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T08:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T08:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i am done with discussion. All i have left is derision and slight regard. For JA . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19968" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . actually i really dont like many of the Austen haters nor the quality of the members of team Austen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Maybe i will actually have to put away the movies and read one the books ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19970" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">more Nietzschean Austen quotes from my up and coming thesis: "The Will to Marriageability" <br />“To live with tremendous and proud composure; always beyond —. To have and not to have one's affects, one's pro and con, at will; to condescend to them, for a few hours; to seat oneself on them as on a horse, often as on an ass — for one must know how to make use of their stupidity as much as of their fire. To reserve one's three hundred foregrounds; also the dark glasses; for there are cases when nobody may look into our eyes, still less into our "grounds." And to choose for company that impish and cheerful vice, courtesy. And to remain master of one's four virtues: of courage, insight, sympathy, and solitude.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19971" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">[prod prod]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">talk about obscure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nietchze is quite the impish condescending ass himself. The question: did he learn it from Liz and Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19974" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">STOP, Beitia. You are baiting me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19975" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen:<br />“They were within twenty yards of each other, and so abrupt was his appearance, that it was impossible to avoid his sight. Their eyes instantly met, and the cheeks of each were overspread with the deepest blush. He absolutely started, and for a moment seemed immoveable from surprise; but shortly recovering himself, advanced towards the party, and spoke to Elizabeth, if not in terms of perfect composure, at least of perfect civility.”<br />Mr. Darcy is the ubermensch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19976" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or from Sense and Sensibility:<br />“I will be calm. I will be mistress of myself.” <br />just like Nietzsche....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19977" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T09:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Will To Marry</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19978" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">traditional definition of pastoral: to define and to condemn error (cf Pascendi and note like its first word maybe)<br />updated pastoral: fuzzy wuv and no never any meany uncharitable words AND definitions are sooooo 19th century.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen:<br />“Know your own happiness.”<br />how Nietzschean</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19980" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia is getting serious. That's three quotes in one day. I just wait for Kenz and Langley or pater for the smack down / diversion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19981" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T09:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jane Austen: "Richard Wagner used to be a friend of mine but then he got lame."<br />How Nietzschian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19982" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer: It's "The will to marriageability, Mr Darcy and the Ubermensch"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19983" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T09:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's a dissertation title.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19984" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-22T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-22T09:50:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">The final sentences of chapter 24 of The Long Goodbye by Raymond Chandler - probably how every chapter of a book should end.<br />"She hung up and I set out the chess board. I filled a pipe, paraded the chessmen and inspected them for French shaves and loose buttons, and played a championship tournament game between Gortchakoff and Meninkin, seventy-two moves to a draw, a prize specimen of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object, a battle without armour, a war without blood, and as elaborate a waste of human intelligence as you could find anywhere outside an advertising agency."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19985" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T09:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">6! When will it end! "Know your own happiness" is that for realz?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19986" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is. I just have to cherry pick some quotes, write about the society depicted in Austen is rotten, how most of the characters are small, and how Darcy comes along and wills past all of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19987" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T09:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">shit, this comparative literature stuff is easy! Tenure track, here I come!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T09:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T09:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson that was perfect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T10:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">DON'T scroll up; its a bloody massacre. Bits of bunny splattered everywhere. O Horror Horror Horror! The queen of wabbits is dead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19990" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T10:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">When you stare into tNET...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19991" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T10:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T10:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET stares long into you. And when hunting an Austen quote, make sure you don't turn into an Austen quote</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19992" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T10:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Jane-Austen-fan-submits...<br />Jane Austen fan submits her work anonymously to publishers... and receives...<br />DAILYMAIL.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19993" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T10:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">my thesis: "Darcy as post Christian pelagian Luther: covering over our sins with money."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19994" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T10:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^This piece is supposed to highlight the flaws in the publishing system. But could it highlight the flaws in Austen herself...hmmmm...?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19995" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T10:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about: "Marriageable All-Too-Marriageable, Austen and Nietzsche's Four Virtues"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T10:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11610489<br />Austen's style 'may not be hers'<br />The elegant writing style of novelist Jane Austen may have been the work of her editor, an academic at Oxford...<br />BBC.CO.UK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T10:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Jane Austen didn't even write Jane Austen, apparently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-22T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-22T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chandler should be part of Senior Seminar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_19999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I OBJECT in the most Austenian terms to Peterson's quote. Knowledge is for its own sake. I refuse to condescend to peddle myself at the institutions of higher prostitution. Have you learned nothing from N.? De K.? Austen? What should a TACer do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20000" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T10:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The Birth of Mr. Knightly, Austen the Dionysian"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T10:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I await the right suitor. . . . . even if that means following Austen's fate. [Of course i assumed Peterson was criticizing tNET, a conversational novel, and not Austen]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20002" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This quality too of Austen. While selling off others into trifling marriages, she remained the unmoved mover. Also in ordering her kingdom of cottaintails (Beatrice Potter being one caretaker), she took a page out of Herodotus. Anyone remember how Croesus saved his warlike Lydians from annihilation at the hand of Cyrus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^this is why Austen gets so much deserved hate. She's fricken Circe i tell you sans squeals. . . . . and Beitia has the wand of Hermes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20004" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T10:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#wandgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T10:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kind of disappointed.... all this prodding and I can't get a Austen fan to bite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20006" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T10:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund is sleeping</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20007" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T11:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT THE JOKES! how can anyone sleep through the humor?<br />#dumpsterfiregnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">they are all slain. Or huddled trembling in their wabbit holes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20009" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(70, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T11:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And here I though you were sooooo tired of me being angry all the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20010" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T11:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">no! far from it. I like angry people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20011" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T11:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still haven't criticized Austen yet. Keep looking</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20012" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Humor = overhead. [And take a look at what Bond did to Madison on Peterson's page. Not to mention MY jokes that only Bond got. . . . . . crickets . . . Fed. 10 status]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20013" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T11:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">how are we ever going to have the facebook thread record if we all get along?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20014" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HA! Beitia! You established all the premises. Do you not see the conclusions? Or are you taken with the siren song of Zarathustra?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">getalongism is what rabbits do. They are docile unless you attack their queen unless you slay her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20016" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">PATER EDMUND is hiding. Probably under an Austrian aristocratic petticoat of some distant aunt. He may pop in to say he has to go to vespers with a "virtuous" condescending flourish and 3 or 4 links. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20017" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T11:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, Michael has "never criticized Austen" and John already admitted defeat, even though he's pretending that he wasn't vanquished, so I consider the Austen case closed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20018" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-22T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-22T11:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not actually asleep. Our Holy Father St Bernard was against sleep: «What should I say of sleep, which in other men is a restoration after labor, a recreation of sense and mind? From that time till now he was awake more than is humanly possible. For no time did he regard as so wasted as the time of sleep. He held the comparison of sleep and death for very fitting; for as the sleeping seem dead to men, so the dead are sleeping in the eyes of God. Hence he could scarce keep his patience when he saw a religious in sleep who either snored too loud, or sprawled indecently; he thought such a one a carnal or worldly sleeper. The meagerness of his sleep was proportionate to the meagerness of his food; in neither did he indulge his body to satiety, in both he was satisfied if he had any at all. As for night-watches, he considered a watch moderate if he did not spend the whole night sleepless.» #Monkgnosis http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../jerome-k-jerome.../</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[goad goad and gloat] AHH! and voila ^^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm quite willing to get angry about something else, though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20021" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T11:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll be honest, tNET is a great outlet for the socially unacceptable side of my personality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[pssst Beitia. qed. nullum argumentum contra verba sua]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NEW question: how did Croesus pacify his Lydians and could it work in modern times . . . . say 19th century England as a random culture and era?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the poet a lawgiver of sorts? . . . meaning by "law" "nomos" to include custom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, be angry. They are now debating whether chocolate is per se evil on the pseudo-thomism forum.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T11:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the same place where the wife-beater hangs out, right? I would expect no less from them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"On whether the pseudo thomism forum should be flagged and removed from FB?" slander and an absolute disgrace. Next they will be asking whether it is ok to beat one's parents. sickos.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20028" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T11:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Monkgnosis:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTBiuv4Se68<br />I'm going Monk (Zoolander)<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T11:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"prayer...prayer"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20030" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T11:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i just quoted the Bill Cosby chocolate cake song. They shouldnt even be talking about thomas. They need to be beaten as Aristotle says for asking impious or stupid questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20031" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T11:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">alum friends, our gesamstkunstwerk is not far from the FB comment record</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not that the questions are hooorrible imo, but really they should it call the ignoramus and morally clueless forum. Thomas would beat them with a fire brand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20033" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T11:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, since chocolate is a modern invention (after the 13th century) it is clearly immoral</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. Take that cig outta your mouth. You modernist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20035" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T12:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Jehoshaphat Escalante, I think it is more Kuhscheiße werk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20036" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we really that close? I thought the record was something like 80,000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20037" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">kuhscheibe yourself. This is a tac forum. German Verbotten!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20038" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T12:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, Rome wasn't built in a day on the backs of the oppressed plebian class</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20039" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-22T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-22T12:11:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, you may knock Austen, but I draw the line at knocking Beatrix Potter. If you don't see how genius her books are, you are a moron. And immoral.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20040" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the record is 54,000 but the comments are mostly 'ram' 'ram' 'ram' (why? -- no idea)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20041" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T12:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">More like 154000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20042" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T12:12:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">at least tNET has substance</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20043" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T12:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But does it have form?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20044" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a higher word count</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">did i knock her? MAAAAYBE the rabbits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20046" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T12:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nothing has form. Form is a purely notional human construct</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20047" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T12:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">hang on, insofar as tNET can be said to be man made, as opposed to eternally present dumpster fire, it has form</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20048" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Technically these are posts on a status update. The current record is 584,444 http://recordsetter.com/.../comment-thread.../12598...<br />Longest Comment Thread On A Facebook Status Update<br />DawarKazi set this world record with RecordSetter, a...<br />RECORDSETTER.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20049" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My teen said we could go for the record for the most intelligent conversation on Facebook. I told her not to push it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is death natural?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if Jesus and Mary have their bodies, where are they? (<< ^^ questions my 12th graders want to know)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20052" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in heaven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But 'where' is that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20054" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T12:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Grade 12s are harder than most crowds. And they flit all over the place with questions!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">beyond the lunar sphere. . . . . . . . somewhere. Do you have to know everything? What is Faith?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you know. Like the de fide definition. NOT the non de fide non definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO ONE KNOWS. Nor never has. (Where heaven is that is.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We know next to zilch on all the great mysteries (mysterion = sacramentum). What is faith? De fide? . . . . . . . Secundum Paulum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question what is faith is a response to petulance regarding "where is heaven?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">". . . . will there be any Faith?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20061" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that seems like an intemperate response to a perfectly reasonable question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20062" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"o ye of little faith."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20063" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">faith of little children?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20064" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, you still need to face your reckoning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20065" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T12:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like Beatrix Potter a lot. Mr. Jeremy Fisher is my very favorite!<br />But can we please stop saying things like "Everyone who doesn't like [insert author of which speaker is fond] is a complete [insert derogatory]." What possible good can that do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"erit enim tempus cum sanam doctrinam non sustinebit, . . . . . ad fabulas autem convertentur."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I don't think your position is compatible with the dignity of theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20068" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T12:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I don't actually have time to argue now because I'm making coffee then heading out the door.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha i am totally serious. And it is the best response.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20070" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T12:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward. You are wrong. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20071" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, anyone who likes Beatrix Potter is a jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20072" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once again, I am proved a jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20073" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's a long line Daniel Lendman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this about whether TOB is from hell again. Are the theologians just waking and in hangover?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20075" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ToB is not from hell. But I think Michael said that anyone who likes it is a jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20076" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I find it hard to distinguish between Beatrix Potter and JPIIs writings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20078" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who said anything about a hgnsvero?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-22T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-22T13:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, which Pride and Prejudice TV adaptation is better Garvie-Rintoul '80, or Ehle-Firth '95?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20080" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ehle-Firth. Hands down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20081" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Next question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20082" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I MADE ONE JOKE ABOUT POTTER (not HP) and i get hammered. People cant take / get a joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20083" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T13:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lest I be thought to be advocating some kind of literary relativism - I would definitely say that there are better and worse books and authors. However, as with fine wine, the taste for them needs to be developed. An individual literary "palate" needs to be cultivated, not mocked because it has not yet acquired entirely good taste.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So here is some Darwinian evidence for prehistoric Jewish origins. Apparently they came from this guy:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../huge-king-nose-dinosaur...<br />Scientists Discover Dinosaur With Massive Schnoz<br />Scientists are calling it the Jimmy Durante of Dinosaurs....<br />HUFFINGTONPOST.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20085" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what I just posted was racist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20086" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Potter > JP2. more clarity. And shorter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20087" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T13:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John - I would be careful about stating that you got hammered right after throwing around hangover comments </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20088" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T13:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Jimmy Durante of dinosaurs - HAHAHAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20089" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T13:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"That's not a banana, that's-a my nose! Hachachachacha"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20090" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T13:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Home roasted coffee beans . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20091" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">John said Harry Potter is superior to St. JPII</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20092" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, you may send them to me, care of the ITI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Head feel better, Edward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20094" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Irony: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/.../far-left-climate.../<br />Far Left Climate Geeks Leave Mountain of Trash For Cities to Deal With<br />On Sunday, tens of thousands of committed leftists held...<br />THEGATEWAYPUNDIT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20095" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I refuse to talk again about him who shall not be named.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20096" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T13:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh shit...^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20097" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you really just associate Saint John Paul the Great with Lord Voldemort?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lips are sealed. Refuse to spew back shit about shit that came from. . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BEATRIX. Beitia knew it too. He is a troublemaker.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Threadness forces all to speak eventually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">troublemaker!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20102" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">just stoking the dumpster fire</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he who shall not be named = HP (antimetabole, your poetness) </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20104" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">chiasmus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20105" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-22T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-22T13:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, please don't worry -- I too am against name-calling, but I am trying to pick up the slack for the great black hole left by a certain person named after a bird of prey and a Franciscan theologian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"how hp is the father of voldemort"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20107" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just here to pad my stats in case a certain individual comes back. I'm not relinquishing #1</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I need to up my game too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have refered to HP as he who shall not be named so long, I forget others dont see the likeness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20110" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is why I brought in tasteless racism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20111" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#statpaddinggnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He who shall not be named was the guitarist for the Dwarves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what was wrong with the Nazis anyway?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20114" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Horton" data-date="2014-09-22T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Horton at 2014-09-22T13:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread is stronger with this included.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20115" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">we'd managed to avoid Godwin's Law for so long....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you hear the diary of Anne Frank was a fraud?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20117" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">do not "think for yourself" about the Holocaust.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20118" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's going to be part of my husband's blog post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yeah. That is why Benedict XVI lifted Bishop Williamson's excommunication.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^False.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20121" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Repeat-- DO NOT "think for yourself" about the Holocaust.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fransisco Franco was just as bad</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20123" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Holy Moses, I just looked up Williamson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^...yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">doesnt count when you raise Nazis to pad posts by gaining reference to godwin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, he's not excommunicated, but he's definitely not an actual bishop of anything, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20127" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^He has no canonical standing in the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is a bishop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20129" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because the evidence for their existence is so overwhelming that the only reason anyone would deny them is anti-semitism, or some other morally repugnant reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20130" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But he is just kind of floating around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Foolishness?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20132" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Paranoia?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20133" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought guys like that were a fabrication of the left-wing media to make conservatives look bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He exists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's too bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha is no Zionist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20137" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are no really legitimate questions that can be raised regarding whether there was mass genocide under Nazi Germany.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There may be legitimate questions as to how it was carried out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20139" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T13:53:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, don't be one of "those people." I know it's cool to be a contrarian (I'm one myself), but unless you've got a 2nd career as a Shoah researcher that I don't know about, don't ask stupid questions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"STUPID QUESTIONS" is my point. You zealot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-22T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-22T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Da kannst Du mich am Arsch lecken.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Mozart wrote a song to those lyrics!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"no legitimate questions" QED</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">With regard to historical facts, such claims are easier to be made.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T13:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Its religious zealotry. And there are plenty of legit questions without losing your head like Williamson or Sungenis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are no legitimate questions to be asked regarding whether George Washington was the first president of the USA and that he lead the colonial army.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not about whether 6,000,000 jews were killed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not the questions i have in mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T14:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T14:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is my only point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T14:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like I said above, one might question where, how, and details, but THAT^ happened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20151" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T14:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The existence of death camps also cannot be legitimately denied.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20152" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I stated originally that Robinson's metaphor was a FORM of antimetabole, John. You can't read literature like philosophy. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20153" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They just discovered another one, didn't they? I saw that floating around Facebook a little while ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AND I raise it because we are going to repeat unless the hard questions happen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John. Seriously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was kidding and Robinson wasnt using antimetabole. She was being a sneak. Its called sneakosis i believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ABSOLUTELY certain, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20158" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T14:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just because it isn't taught de fide, doesn't make deniers anything other than horrible ignorant little trolls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peoples are stupid. It is already brewing in the Ukraine. Reeeeeaaally stupid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">DEFINE denier, you moron.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20161" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-22T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-22T14:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what is going on here and I am running around today with little time - but I have plenty of friends and acquaintances from varied backgrounds reading this, I assume.<br />If people want to reveal their extreme ignorance or disturbing prejudices, that's their problem I suppose, and not mine. Maybe this tNET can help. But if idiocy or prejudice isn't countered over time I would shut things down at some point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T14:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, how does blocking work?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20163" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-22T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-22T14:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the connection between you and I or you and TAC circles?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-22T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-22T14:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where have you ingested these poisons?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is a denier. Definitions. I am certain that I am not. But as Matthew points out we cant ask for a definition here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T14:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, are you also a 911 truther? Oh, I suppose you just have "doubts" as to who did it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think this is just more trolling, guys.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20168" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Either way it's tasteless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20169" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He has to believe it at least a little bit to take things this far, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look I made a joke to point play on Lendman's point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20171" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Oleg Kostoglotov" data-date="2014-09-22T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Oleg Kostoglotov at 2014-09-22T14:17:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_20172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, there are some "doubts" for which educated people have no excuse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-22T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-22T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't want to get into this at all, but I am wondering whether you've ever been to Auschwitz or one of the other big camps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Very little in history has been as well documented and attested as the Holocaust</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am very serious about the definition. It is precise. And a matter of law. That is all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A DENIER IS. and i have denied being such.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20177" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-22T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-22T14:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak I think you are right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and in Ukraine. YES. Jews are fleeing and under threat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe in the camps and whodunnit. That is not the gray area. But what is a denier which I am not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20180" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T14:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I stop reading to do some "work" and this is where we're at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ignore it. I don't want TNET shut down. I like TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-22T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-22T14:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would rather be insulted about Jane Austen, seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As usual, I can't really tell what John is saying, but it seems to be horrible. And yeah, do you even go here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, can we calm down a little bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20185" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This kind of nonsense is exactly where the worst online conversations go. TNET is better than that, so cut it out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20186" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always had trouble with German thinkers -- Benedict XVI is the exception to my rule</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-22T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-22T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways. My initial posts were just to stir contraversy. There are very very important questions about the holocaust. Not asking causes backlash like neonazis and offbalance reactions like Sungenis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha -- has John blocked you? Or you can read him but he is obtuse?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20189" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sooo lost...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20190" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, no, he's just confusing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well we don't use abortion and the Nazis to stir the pot. Ok? (A little tNET etiquette)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But John, neo-Nazis are not caused by laws against holocaust denial. They are the reason Germany has laws against holocaust denial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20193" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm torn between my desire not to encourage John, and my desire not to let terrible false statements go uncontroverted...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20194" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T14:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">How did you guys get from Beatrix Potter to Hitler in 20 mins or less?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let it go Samantha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20196" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just let it go</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but... but...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Discuss spanking instead: Valid parenting tool or evil? (Matt Walsh drives me nuts -- disclaimer) http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/09/18/spanking/<br />Spanking is a disciplinary measure, not child abuse. Get a grip, people. - The Matt...<br />THEMATTWALSHBLOG.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I TOLD you guys about him. Didn't i tell you? But noooo, it has to come to this before anyone believes me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-22T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-22T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he is just confused.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20201" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T14:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No let's not get into the spanking thing, I've been on enough mommy blogs to learn to just keep my mouth shut on that one. (I've also been told I should go to prison for pinching a 1 year olds hand to get her to stop touching things she shouldn't)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T14:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer Hitler to Matt Walsh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20203" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-22T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-22T14:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is a tough one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20204" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll bite. I wouldn't call spanking child abuse, but I think it's potentially damaging, and unnecessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I say this as someone who was spanked a *lot*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't read that Matt Walsh article, though, and I'm not going to, because I'm still mad at him about Noah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matt Walsh is a boob.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T14:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is he anyone I should care about? (Separate from whether he is good or bad.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20209" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T14:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20210" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T14:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">he is the worst sort of click bait for conservative leaning Catholics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20211" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Should care about" ??that's moving the relationship along.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20212" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Huh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20213" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T14:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we get back to a real subject?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He is a staffer for buzz feed </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T14:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What did the theologians talk about last night after I went to bed? Anything good?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20216" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T15:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I posted pictures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T15:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T15:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't remember... I thought it was interesting at the time... But I was half asleep and trying to feed a baby so who knows..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha--FWIW belief or disbelief in any private revelation should not deter anyone from Catholicism, imo. E.g., I also think the brown scapular is commonly misunderstood (at best), a lot of the three days of darkness stuff seems nutty as all get out, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lots of stuff on just how great JPII's writings were or weren't. (Re the theology talk last night.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20220" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I know. That stuff just triggers all my "nope" instincts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, right. I started ToB one time... That is all I have to contribute to that conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20222" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">uggggh..... I hate writing newsletters for parents.... someone do mine for me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20223" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">should I tell them about the illicit Lingua Latina I'm sneaking into the curriculum?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of yeah there was about to be a good discussion of superstition vs prayer; example: praying the rosary is good, carrying a Rosary as a "talisman" (having but not using) is superstitious. (Forgive my edits, I am discovering that iOS 8 has serious autocorrect issues)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20225" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T15:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wouldn't tell them. My mom made the mistake of listing the New St Joseph's Baltimore catechism as one of her resources for the first communion class and she wasn't asked back (but was told they would 'Review' the book.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a better definition: superstition is all that papist stuff that isn't in the Bible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20228" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Evangelical "rapture" (rupture?) is super scriptural too... right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20229" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come on. You think I'm into that stuff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20230" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whose Bible?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The cool thing about being an evangelical, is you can just reject the craziness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have to tie myself up in knots defending it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20233" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Truthfully, I don't think any profound theological differences arise from the canonical vs. apocryphal Bibles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is John trying to have a private fb conversation with any of you about holocaust denial?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20235" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or am I the only lucky one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20236" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">two things: you're the lucky one<br />and <br />isn't rejecting the craziness rejecting evangelicals?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is unclear to me that Catholics have to accept much "craziness" either. As Kenz laid out earlier, the dogmatic disagreements between Catholics and what I believe Escalante called "magisterial reformers" (i.e. Luther and Calvin) are overblown. There are disagreements, but fewer than one might think.<br />W/r/t the "Catholic pious devotionals" those are optional. I suppose it depends on whether one thinks things like the Eucharist and prayer to the Saints constitute "craziness."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20238" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's called me a "domesticated rabbit" and a "moron" so I'm not holding my breath.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20239" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I personally like his comments, for the most part, but I've got pretty thick e-skin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the evangelical movement is good at its core.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20241" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Expand</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20242" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T15:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have soft, sexy e-skin. I rub my e-skin daily with coconut e-oil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20243" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and Joel, I think you're right about the magisterial reformers. And I'm an Anglican, so the Eucharist isn't the problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20244" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I too dabbled in Anglicanism. Not in ‘Nam of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20245" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:29:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">#Biglebowskignosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20246" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, my e-skin is e-calloused and e-hardened from years of e-trolling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20247" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The disagreements are actually huge; Joshua was only discussing a narrow set of topics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20248" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#egnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20249" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're not wrong, Joel, you're just an</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat Escalante--what do you see the chief doctrinal disagreements being?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ecclesiology, justification/sanctification, sacrament; all deep rifts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Justin Tse I think" data-date="2014-09-22T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Justin Tse I think at 2014-09-22T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Escalante is going to go all ontological on us if we push him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20253" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T15:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been re-reading Pride and Prejudice so as to try to mend the hole in my soul. Just finished Chapter 12 and GOD WHAT FUSSY, MINCING DRIVEL!! CALL YOU THIS PROSE?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh and sola scriptura of course</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Much like Royal Tenenbaum, I've always been considered that, but I prefer SOB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, sola scriptura leads to some pretty massive differences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was sort of onboard with Scripture + Tradition for a while, when thinking of Tradition as the way the Church has interpreted Scripture, but in practice Tradition seem to mean that the Church can define new doctrine and claim it was always part of "Tradition" as long as someone somewhere thought it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20258" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that seems an oversimplification....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20259" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">every Christian has to believe in a stronger or weaker form of tradition. The disagreement is how much to admit or not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm certainly not going to get into any apologetics here with my charming alumni friends, I only wished to say that there are immense and important differences</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's right. I believe in the weaker form. The much weaker form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course, otherwise you'd be Catholic...or Orthodox.<br />And Jehoshaphat, I appreciate that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat--that's fair. I tend to think the justification/sanctification divide while real is not as great as some make it to be. I'm also not an expert on "what Protestants believe." Round my neck of the woods, growing up, it was either (a) any damn thing they could wring out of the Bible themselves or (b) not much of anything at all. Of course, if one looked at the (unofficial) beliefs of actual Catholics, one could say the same things but they didn't need to find it in the Bible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20264" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^The above is not, and is not intended to be an insult to my thoughtful Protestant friends here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20265" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, all two of us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20266" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb answered the one technical question. Thanks for the recommendation Caleb! So that's three at the very least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20267" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T15:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I'm off to the dentist. solve all the divides between Protestants and Catholics while I'm gone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20268" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The justification divide is definitely huge, recent exercises in waffling notwithstanding. <br />And I should note, since you quote my use of "magisterial reformers", that this is a term current among historians of early modernity, and it does not mean, as most (especially Catholics) understandably take it to mean, that Protestants regard Luther or Calvin as equivalent to the Papal magisterium. It rather comes from the word "magistrate", and indicates those mainline, orthodox Protestants (as opposed to Radical Reformation) who looked to the civil magistrate, having the cura religionis, as the main implementer of reform.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20269" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:54:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">and by "recent exercises in waffling" I mean the "Joint Declaration", which serious Catholics ought to find as appalling as I do</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hmm, you don't like it? interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's an exercise in dishonest glossover</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read it since high school-- maybe it wasn't as great as I thought at the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T15:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I understood the term to mean that, and was using it to differentiate those Protestants from some of the ones I was acquainted with as a child—you know, crazy Southern revival types.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T15:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, shudder, ana-baptists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Justin Tse So Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Justin Tse So Escalante at 2014-09-22T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is saying that Protestantism needs to be understood as a set of political theologies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christianity is a political theology</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20277" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Justin Tse True. Or, duh." data-date="2014-09-22T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Justin Tse True. Or, duh. at 2014-09-22T16:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_20278" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T16:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">rex, regnum, fides, redemptio, glorificatio, civitas Dei</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20279" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T16:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat--w/ one or 2 exceptions, the ecumensim of the Catholic church for the last 50 years has been deplorable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-22T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-22T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(IMO at least.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20281" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-22T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-22T16:18:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Joint Declaration was terrible....even Avery Cardinal Dulles heldit was an exercise in sophistry...I use X to mean Y, and you use X to mean Z, and we pretend we agree!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20282" class="entry even" data-likes="11" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T16:21:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">When TNET reaches 21,000 comments, it should be legally permitted to purchase and consume booze.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T16:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^absolutely, Joshua</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20284" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T16:23:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">re the JD, it seems to me that the committee's basic idea was "hey we were all very precise in the 16th and 17th centuries and that didn't solve anything so let's just never use terms clearly again but chant 'unity' to Taize tunes and hug and see what happens"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20285" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T16:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I remember my mom thought the JD was a sign that the churches were all going to unite under the anti-Christ and Jesus would soon come back and save the few elect who remained apart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20286" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T16:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fortunately, *that* didn't happen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As the churches are today, they'd make a pretty sorry army for the Antichrist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20288" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T16:30:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't imagine the army of Antichrist with pastel felt banners</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20289" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-22T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-22T16:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Elmer's glue=chemical warfare</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20290" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T16:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://news.yahoo.com/polygamist-ninja-women-sneak-utah... See... that's why you can't support poliganinjas.<br />Polygamist Ninja Women Sneak Into Utah Home To Abduct 15-Year-Old Girl, Fail...<br />NEWS.YAHOO.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-22T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-22T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They will use the edge of brightly colored construction paper to cut the other side into kindness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-22T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-22T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They will smother the opposition in wads of cotton.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Margaret Grimm" data-date="2014-09-22T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Margaret Grimm at 2014-09-22T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blackwell So what's being discussed today?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20294" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-22T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-22T16:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Polyganinjas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20295" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T16:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know how to put clip art on my newsletter. Do I have to?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-09-22T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-09-22T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe Clip art is inherently evil. Sort of like Comic Sans.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. I'll just have a little box on my newsletter with text inside, that say "this is where I would have put clip art if it weren't inherently evil." Parents will love it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20298" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T17:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's something fun!<br />http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-generic-college-paper<br />A Generic College Paper.<br />Since the beginning of time, bullshit, flowery overgeneralization with at least one thesaurus’d...<br />MCSWEENEYS.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20299" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^that's going to be like my Nietzsche/Austen crossover paper! You spoiled it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I come back from the dentist to find that y'all haven't solved all the problems between Catholics and their "separated brethren"....<br />as an aside, this is twaddle:<br />18.Therefore the doctrine of justification, which takes up this message and explicates it, is more than just one part of Christian doctrine. It stands in an essential relation to all truths of faith, which are to be seen as internally related to each other. It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ. When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this criterion, they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of faith. When Catholics see themselves as bound by several criteria, they do not deny the special function of the message of justification. Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts. [cf. Sources for section 3].</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't be sore, Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20302" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We were waiting for you to get here to really sink our teeth into the subject</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20303" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know the drill</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20304" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But be nice - remember we've got fillings too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20305" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everybody brace yourselves</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20306" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're about to have a brush with tNET destiny</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20307" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">is this pun til you puke hour? Did I miss that memo?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, actually that takes place starting at tooth-hurtie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">*RIM SHOT*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20310" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're gumming up the discussion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20311" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bite me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20312" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">one more pun and we're removing your tNET plaque.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Won't chew please lighten up?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tim Cantu the wordplay has begun</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can you tell it's Monday?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20316" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak's just being tongue in cheek</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20317" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">paying lip service</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just bridging the gap until something else happens</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T18:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T18:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the tooth, you just can't handle it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T19:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We've been trying to extract meaning all along</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4DOJhjwPME<br />Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau "Denn es gehet dem Menschen wie dem Vieh" Brahms<br />Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau sings "Denn es gehet dem...<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />September 22 at 7:11pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview<br />Jeff Neill Is George rr Martin's book series.... Is it virtuous?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20322" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Innocent Smith" data-date="2014-09-22T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Innocent Smith at 2014-09-22T21:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real question is, is it art?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has the thread died?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20324" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T22:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it's hibernating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20325" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T22:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmmm, I think it's dead. All that Hitler stuff made everyone just give up on it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20326" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T22:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I actually think it was the puns. The unphilosophical generally lack appreciation for the most philosophical form of humor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20327" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-22T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-22T22:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope it's the Bears game (halftime now, I'm makin' nachos)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oooo... nachos... Ok well as long as it picks up by the time I'm up for the 2 am feeding session.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the pun is the lowest form of humor, it is therefore the foundation of all wit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20330" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T22:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So would the situation with ISIS be an acceptable time for a Crusade? (Given that it would even be a possibility which I don't know if it could be given training etc)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20331" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T22:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oliver Wendell Holmes once said “People who make puns are like wanton boys that put coppers on the railroad tracks. They amuse themselves and other children, but their little trick may upset a freight train of conversation for the sake of a battered witticism.”<br />Mr. Holmes only ever came to such a simile because he never made a good pun in his life. Sometimes, when the passengers are being lulled to sleep by the drone of endless travel, that big, dull freight train of conversation should be derailed. A truly good pun must be granted admission to the rarer excellencies of conversation, if conversation is to be lively and interesting. Punning is a talent despised only by those who have it not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-22T22:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-22T22:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A pun is merely two strings of thought twisted into one verbal knot. The punster is, essentially, a “corrupter of words,” like Feste.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20333" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T22:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have to distinguish the puns.<br />A pun is an ambiguous usage of an equivocal word for humorous effect. If the two meanings just happen to come together (as with the trite example, "bat"), the pun is a relatively low form of humor. If the two meanings are logically related (As for example Oscar Wilde's "'I can make a pun on any subject.' 'Can you make a pun upon the Queen?' 'The Queen, my dear sir, is not a subject.'") the pun has a much loftier place within the realm of humor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20334" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T23:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">GRR Martin's books are nihilistic. I don't care how many times he denies it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Any character in game of thrones who looks around at the world and concludes that the forces of good have a shot at winning is an idiot, and probably will die horribly on the next page.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-22T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-22T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, have you read them? If so, I bet you and I are the only ones on tNET who have.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T23:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T23:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is failing at satisfying my bedtime reading tonight, I guess I'll have to go back to Anna Karenina</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20338" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T23:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not 2AM yet, Lauren.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you putting baby Phil on her back?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most of the time (like all but two nights) (and please don't anyone come after me with an axe for this)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(48, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And her name is not Phil. In fact Alex would be mad if he knew I responded to you when you called her that </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20342" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-22T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-22T23:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just sharpening it now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-22T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-22T23:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In my defense it was recommended by a Nurse for dealing with her tummy issues </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20344" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T23:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yup, Samantha, I totally dig the books. It is the best of Greek tragedy outside of Russian authors. <br />Every character has virtues and vices; the virtues make them successful in their endeavors and their vices are their undoing. It is nihilistic as far as nothing being sacred, but the unspoken/unseen main characters have not been introduced yet. The book series is a chess game with two people (gods) playing the game.... One of which doesn't even have a name yet. <br />The best part being the focus on politics and minimizing the fantasy aspects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even the tv shows have been well done. (If the uncensored versions are too much for your sensibilities, you can find censored versions out there).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-22T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-22T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The sad part is it is one of those books where you can't talk about it with the uninitiated. (Lacking #songoficeandfiregnosis)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20347" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T00:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T00:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Didn't he say he considers himself the anti-Tolkien and he uses the R.R. on purpose for this reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T00:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many do you have to have read to be initiated? I read the first one and thought it was terrible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20349" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T00:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But back to the praise of the pun! Mr. Holmes is somewhat accurate in stating that those who make puns amuse themselves. Part of the delight in a good, well timed pun lies in the loud groans from everyone else within hearing. There is a great deal of satisfaction to be found in it. The specific wordplay of a pun seems to be ordered towards a certain kind of humor – not the kind of humor for making others chuckle or laugh, for a pun is not a joke told for the entertainment of others – no, a pun is made for the amusement of the man who is clever enough to capture two thoughts in one net.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T00:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A pun is, unashamedly, ordered towards the pleasure that is to be found in the exercising of a quick wit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20351" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And there is nothing to be found in this exercise of wit which needs condemning. To "get" a pun, and groan at it, requires only a rational being. But to make a pun…ah, that needs a gentleman’s intellect, beyond the mere capacity of comprehension, able to see humorous relations and express them quickly! A pun demands a well-read, verbally competent, nimble and ready mind (as well as the admittedly unavoidable lack of shame in cracking a witticism meant only for personal enjoyment).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the pun is not entirely selfish - put two punsters together, give them a topic, and they will find each other to be very funny gentlemen indeed. They will exercise their wits in tandem and share something in which everyone else is either unable, or able but unwilling, to partake: the activity of wordmongering, and the great fun that is to be found in the form of humor not limited by the laws placed on popular comedy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">In a world of egalitarian humor, the spontaneous pun is the lone misfiring atom of elitism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20354" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The pun is proud, the pun is defiant, the pun has a twinkle in its eye, and the pun elicits groans because of the reluctance of witless men like Mr. Holmes to pay it tribute in laughter.<br />And yet few will pass up the opportunity to crack a good pun, however rarely it rises before them – and thus, it may be that the groans emitted by all those who hear a magnificent play on words are the result of deep-down, subconscious admiration and jealousy: “God, why didn’t I think of that?”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#pungnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So did you hear the one about the fire at the circus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20357" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was IN TENTS! </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20358" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren - as for the conversation failing your bedtime reading, may I just say - ask not what TNET can do for you, but what you can do for TNET.<br />That a better example of antimetabole for you, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel - I used to be addicted to soap.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20360" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But now I'm clean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">“Funny how I got to be educated by degrees.” ~Robert Frost, upon accepting his honorary doctorate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where does the one-legged waitress work?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">IHOP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And what's her name?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eileen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20367" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">... but I couldn't find any!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20368" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's great about living in Switzerland?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20369" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-23T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-23T01:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">... well, the flag is a big plus ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T01:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T01:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Shut up, both of you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20371" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T01:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T01:29:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">"As one gets older, one loses one's mind by degrees." —my grandmother to my father on the occasion of his getting his second doctorate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20372" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-23T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-23T01:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, your last objection was hardly substantial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20373" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T01:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T01:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Isak: thought old RR's work was terrible, did you? Please tell me why. I haven't read them, nor Annette FitzGerald, but we both think that there is much good to the series, aside from the gratuitous sex and violence and all of the Identity Politics they mask. Do you care for the show? I'd like to know what you think of the written form, Martin's own work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20374" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I found his tone quite stark </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20375" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-23T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-23T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was hoping you would be talking theology again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20376" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ask not what TNET can do for you, Jody...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-23T01:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-23T01:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was wondering what you all thought of St Therese of Lisieux being named a Doctor of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20378" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T01:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, now you're using the pun to hide rather than make things interesting. C'mon. .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-23T01:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-23T01:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since many of you poo-pooed JPII being one. I was wondering about your criterion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20380" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lazy, bloated storytelling full of clunky, awkward prose from a clearly sadistic writer obsessed with betrayal. There is nothing noble about the first book. <br />I did also see the first season of the show, and while it was pretty to look at, I found the underlying nihilism overcame the spectacle. Also boobs. Which are great, but I'm not married to any of the women to whom belong the ubiquitous mammaries on that show.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading one of seven and you don't get satisfaction of a complete story? How many other books do you read the first chapter of and have a sense of completion? As for sadistic boobs, I guess that you think the same of Aristophanes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20382" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T01:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've considered whether the work was nihilist or perhaps something else. Wanted to know what you thought. Sadistic? Meaning Martin enjoys inflicting the pain on his readers at the death of good men like Stark? Martin writes the story the way he does because he's pulling our hearts out and he gets off on it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T01:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, clearly not. He's writing a tale of virtue and vice. From virtue is life, but vice kills.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20384" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, read my comment again, you consummate ass. Who said anything about a sense of completion?<br />No idea why you mention Aristophanes there - he's a comic genius, and about as far away from Martin as apples from wheelbarrows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Martin is a dirty old man who doesn't know how to write anything beautiful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T01:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do you say that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20387" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T01:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T01:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love you too isak. (This is not sarcastic, I'm quite genuine)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20388" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T01:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't know what to make of the show because it is the work of so many in addition to Martin. Knew I'd have to read him before judging the stories. That's why I wanted Isak's opinion on the words on the page. What of the beauty that is there, in some other characters, context, etc?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T01:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does he not know beauty or does he not write of the simple/true/good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T01:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not saying it's wrong to write a sex scene - but there's definitely a wrong WAY to write a sex scene, and that's with his clumsy half-clinical descriptions.<br />Can you show me anything beautiful in the first book? I've already made clear that's all I've read of the series. It seems quite realistic to assume the other entries are similar in form and style. Also, full-length books that get longer and longer are not the same thing as chapters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T01:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to be more of the inferno. A slow walk through each level seeing the lives and consequences of actions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20392" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you really just compare Game of Thrones to Dante's Inferno? I'm telling Tom Sundaram on you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you don't like the book/chapter analogy, let's not get caught in that..... Analogies aren't real anyway.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is Tom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He may agree with me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Be it so, if so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, so the reader is part of the book being lead by the author through people's lives, seeing the consequences of actions... There fore inferno</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nobody loves in hell, they all die.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think my main criticism is that his sentences are basic, his prose fan-fiction-like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many were well intentioned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some better than others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the Inferno is followed by Purgatorio and Paradiso. It isn't the whole story.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read the rest of the books that are out, but I'm aware of their contents.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20404" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neither is the first book</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20406" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't get any better in Martin's world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20407" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Comment anticipated and addressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T02:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak: how would you describe Martin's writing of the sex scenes? Bloodless? You said clinical. He doesn't understand love?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">History has a way of building upon itself, is now better than before, what can we learn from a long tale of tragic loss?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are the consequences of the consequences of the consequences? (Can you for shadow three orders out? Of you can what can you do to change it?). I think his work does more teaching and is more reachable to a broader audience than if it were written in "fancier" prose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20411" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could find you some quotes Fitz </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T02:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T02:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What of Martin's language bent? I thought he basically wanted to be the next Tolkien. That he was doing philology in a similar way. <br />That's also what got Annette and me talking. The incest and sick twisted stuff is more akin to the French influenced Arthurian Legends, ad ND therefore decidedly anti Tolkien, because of the latter's hatred of the French influence on old Icelandic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T02:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't go to any trouble, just say more about how Martin misses the mark when writing a sex scene.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HAHAHAHA this is priceless. Click with discretion. Awkward descriptions of genitals contained here. <br />http://www.dorkly.com/.../7-things-from-the-game-of...<br />7 Things From The Game of Thrones Books Even More Haunting Than The Red...<br />DORKLY.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The sex scenes are completely extraneous, for one thing. With the actual writing, he's literally just going through the motions. Someone is drunk with head-spinning lust for someone else, an unintentionally hilarious word for male anatomy gets employed, then naughty body parts get caressed or fondled and then it's the next chapter. Might as well be Harlequin romance novels.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20416" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I read about Don Quixote reading so many crappy adventure stories that his brain dries up, I think of A Song of Ice and Fire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had to look up the "evil eye" earlier today since I wasn't aware of what it was or its history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T02:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T02:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I see what you mean. Clunk, clunk, clunk. Can the man write, at all, isak?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I certainly can't criticize him on grounds of quantity...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But maybe you should ask someone who has made it through more than just the first book. (chapter?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20421" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point of bringing this up (see what I did there, it is a pun; you like puns) is the world different outside of a Christian society, however there is still morality. Right and wrong still exists and just punishments are dealt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20422" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can certainly agree with that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm afraid the pun went over my head.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can say that beyond the first book/chapter, that bad people reform their lives and good people falter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20425" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was about sex and the evil eye.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20426" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ooh just like life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20427" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha. Erection joke. How thick of me not to see it right away.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The evil eye is a pendant of a phallus worn by the Romans as a talisman... <br />(I learned that today really creepy)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, the best aspect of the series is the ongoing discussion of virtue, and which virtues are held at what standard and whether man can reform their life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps we should give the TNET floor to the discussion of higher things at this point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20431" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T02:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pun...overload...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, perhaps I shall give the second book a try some time. I can't promise anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Coming of age is obviously an underlining theme, but at a further theme is theology within cultures of conflicting beliefs and what does it mean to believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have bad priests that go through the motions and discover through miracles that God exists and that you need to reform your life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T02:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T02:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bedtime an hour and a half ago for me. Think TNET will tuck me in if I ask nicely?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Similar you have people owing a false religion and losing their faith in droves</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Goodnight. (Forgive my autocorrect, looking back many words were "fixed" to unintelligible garble.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T02:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well John, I'm not sure what/how far you read, but if you haven't, it is worth it. As for the naughty bits, they can be glossed over, like an HBO tv show, they get thrown I there. To attract a wider audience that may not spend the time to read Jane Austen or Tolstoy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T02:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T02:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Followed along to the end.... can't stop.... it was worth it. Thanks for sharing your views.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20440" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T03:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T03:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have more views, but I don't share them since it gives the plot away, and presupposes the final purpose of the book. <br />I admit that a "clean" version would be desirable, but it is harder to find an edited book than a edited tv show.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20441" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T06:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T06:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I read the first three books. I thought when I was younger that the style was best adapted to a miniseries, then became really unsurprised to find out that Martin wrote for TV series. I tried to go back and re-read the first one, but meh. there's so much better out there to read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20442" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T06:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T06:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read them all, and while I enjoyed them for what they were, the only defense I will give of them is that they are loads better than that crap Rowling writes. The sex scenes are embarrassing and are a manifestation of a larger problem—he really is a poor stylist generally speaking. (Some of the middle books are written with a much better style, less clunky and awkward, than the first one. I believe the first one was the first book he had written in a long time.) His strength is plotting and world-creation. But this is genre writing, and what one wants out of the “fantasy genre” are an interesting three dimensional world (which he provides) and a good plot (which he mostly provides).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20443" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T07:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T07:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't you think, stylistically, jumping from the POV of one character to another really just means he's writing a TV miniseries?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20444" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T07:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T07:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, a lot of modern novels suffer from that: multiple POV, quick chapters that end in "cliff-hangers", etc. GoTs definitely has a bit of that going on. And in the final analysis I wouldn't really defend them to someone who disliked them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T07:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T07:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I liked them enough to read the first three...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T08:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T08:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read them all. I have a lot of feelings about them, which I'll be back later to share. But what's wrong with multiple pov's? I think they can work if they're done right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20447" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-23T08:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-23T08:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Funny, Joel HF, I found Rowling much more enjoyable than Martin. Rowling is more imaginative; GoT is basically cobbled together from episodes in Western European history with the names changed. The parts I found most enjoyable are the parts that follow an historical event beat for best</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T08:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T08:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kind of a Martin hater, but I don't think the other haters are giving the man his due. It *is* genre writing, but it's really good genre writing. There is a reason Martin has gone mainstream. Joel pointed out that he has great plotting and world-building skills, but he also writes great characters, which the genre is usually lousy about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20449" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T08:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T08:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and then kills them..... Look, a dirty little secret is that I've read a shit ton of fantasy/sci-fi growing up and I wasn't turned off by Martin's writing so much as I caught up when the 3rd book came out and simply lost interest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T08:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T08:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(better than anything by C S Lewis, though)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">GRR Martin draws from history, but he also describes a believable world with more or less believable societies. Rowling's world is shallow--are all wizards employed by the ministry of magic, or just most of them?--and not terribly well fleshed out.<br />Rowling is also much more derivative, imo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20452" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rowling is for kids, Joel, be nice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20453" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:05:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">E. Nesbit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rowling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20454" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and really people Martin is awful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, E Nesbit is certainly very different from Rowling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">E Nesbit and MacDonald.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20457" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't argue with you there Escalante (w/r/t GRR Martin not being v. good).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">he's a great script writer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20459" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the one great fantasy novel besides LOTR is Herbert's "Dune"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20460" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is "Dune" fantasy or sci-fi? And I have a great deal of love for Gene Wolfe. He's actually pretty good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20461" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Martin is just a soap-operafied rehash of the dumber kind of D and D sensibility, and owes a lot to D and D fiction I think; plus the all those trailer-parky faux-Celtic names, ugh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20462" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd actually say that dialogue is one of GRR Martin's many weaknesses. He writes a good plot, or at least an engaging one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew Dugandzic" data-date="2014-09-23T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Dugandzic at 2014-09-23T09:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the thread that never ends yes it goes on and on my friends</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20464" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Dune" is fantasy, really, because technology in it is "premodern"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20465" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dune was good but the only good Herbert novel. "The White Plague" "the jesus incident" and all the rest of the dune books were crap</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">indeed, true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the stereotypical "blind squirrel/nut"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20468" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If "Dune" is fantasy so is "A Canticle for Leibowitz," so that's another great fantasy novel beyond LOTR.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20469" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also think that Gene Wolfe might arguably fit into the "fantasy" genre.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20471" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-23T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 98%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-23T09:34:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe I shouldn't mention the Twilight books, but once someone read one sentence aloud to me, and I thought it was a joke. Possibly some of the worst writing I've ever experienced.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know why Joel keeps comparing Martin to Rowling. Totally different kinds of things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20473" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-23T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-23T09:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is incredibly good... but I love alternate histories. Another one along that line is The Bartimaeus Trilogy, which is actually a very moral set of books for recent young adult fantasy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20474" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^^YES YES YES</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20475" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To the Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell part of Nina's comment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20476" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did anyone else find reading "The Hunger Games" like getting punched in the brain over and over?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO. Shut up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously. Shut up. I have to prep here. Can't defend Hunger Games.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20479" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">uh oh about to go into schism with Samantha for the first time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20480" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">good story, written by a four year old</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's the great difference between Martin and Rowling? That HP is aimed at children?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20482" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and that HP isnt soap opera</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They have almost nothing in common. Plot, world, structure, themes, style, character-- all totally different</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys just shouldn't even read YA fiction if you can't get off your high horses a little bit first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20485" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat, this is a sad moment for me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well there's good YA and bad YA. E.L. Konigsburg > (vastly) Hunger Games</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It isn't? Seriously, there is almost nothing well done about the HP books. Cardboard, unlikable (but not on purpose) characters, a flimsy world, trite plots, bad prose, wooden dialogue...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20488" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn. Soap opera is a much better descriptor than miniseries. I tip my hat to you sir</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20489" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(93, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T09:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Samantha, the general dumbing down of kid's lit is a tragedy, not a defense of bad YA books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20490" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T09:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T09:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Teaching now. Will crush you all later</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">EL Konigsburg and Arthur Ransome, good YA. Hunger Games, BAD</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T09:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rowling, mixed, not great</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20493" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T09:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I almost hesitate to say the HP series isn't that great because that's definitely not the hill I'd want to die on, and I'd hate to be lumped in with the people who think it's going to turn twelve-year-olds into Aleister Crowley. But look at this list--almost every influence and analogue cited is a far better book, and she's cobbled together many of the influences very clumsily. The stitches totally show from the road. http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Harry_Potter_influences_and...<br />Harry Potter influences and analogues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Writer J. K. Rowling cites several writers as influences in...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20494" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(61, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T09:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Not the worst books ever, but no literary triumph, either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T09:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good luck with that Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20496" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T10:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T10:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my sister wrote a YA novel. It gets 3 stars from good reads</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20497" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-23T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-23T10:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For both pro- and anti-HP people, why do you think HP became so immensely popular? I'm not trolling, I genuinely don't have a ready answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20498" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T10:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ignorance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20499" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T10:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">misunderstood orphans escaping from drearydom to high adventure, castles, flying, quirky crotchets, wise wizards, young love, growth into responsibility through ordeal...whats not to like</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20500" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T10:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I felt the same way about the Hunger Games that Michael Beitia did about GoT. I read the first one and had no interest in reading the other two. Joel HF gave me the rundown on the plot and it doesn't sound like I missed much. (Far more controversially, I'm sure, this is also how I felt about Breaking Bad. I watched the first two seasons and did not feel a burning desire to keep going. Maybe someday. But it's not the best TV show ever if I don't give a damn about finishing it.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20501" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T10:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil (And yes, Joel HF, I'm outing you as the only adult in our household who has read all three HG books.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20502" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Ryan Burke: Lack of exposure to better-quality options?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20503" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T10:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">HP isnt great kid's lit, but it's not the worst, and I have a soft spot for it because it finally motivated my son to be game for Latin about which he had been hitherto grumpy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20504" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-23T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-23T10:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, definitely things like Wind in the Willows and Homer have fallen out out of pop culture. From your view of HP as stitched together from greater forebears, it suggests a mostly unfulfilled appetite for good fiction. I wonder what books have been pulled along by the HP bandwagon, old or new</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-23T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-23T10:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I want to go on record saying I liked the Divergent series, and loved the anti-utopian/Long Defeat sort of vibe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-23T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-23T10:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also want to make clear that however stitched together HP may be, GoT "draws from history" with breadth and specificity that approaches plagiarism. (seriously, almost every strut of world-building and major piece of world backstory has a direct analogue). The scale of GoT invites comparison with Tolkien, which isn't really fair but causes me to judge GoT more harshly than I should. I did admire the Dorne arc in particular.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Haven't read GoT, so I'll have to take your word for it, but just for the record, in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't accusing Rowling of plagiarism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20508" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-23T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 94%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-23T10:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Catharine, I didn't think you were, I just wanted to take a gratuitous shot at Martin again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T10:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil No, no need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure we were all clear on that. My choice of phrase might have left that unclear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20510" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T10:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">can we at least agree that we don't know the size/shape of all the breasts in HP, something I can't say about a lot of other fantasy... (I'm looking at you Steven R Donaldson)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20511" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Ryan Burke" data-date="2014-09-23T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ryan Burke at 2014-09-23T10:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, you are like a troubadour of Facebook posts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T10:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what? (laughing to myself)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sci-fi has the most quality of the last 30-40 years of all the contemporary genres.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ryan Burke, the history of literature (particularly novels) stealing from history/real life is long, and I don't have a problem with it, nor with literary allusion to other works of literature (Tolstoy and Dante are exemplars of each). I will say that Rowling does nothing with her lifted elements and isn't even clever with them: Le Guin, Tom Brown's School Days, Nesbit (an acknowledged influence), The Little White Horse, ... she doesn't really transform her sources so much as clumsily patch together second rate copies of them. I will say her taste of influences is pretty good, and to the extent that those other works are discovered, then HP isn't all bad. But that's a tepid defense at best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20515" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ender's Game is better than the Hunger Games (which I didn't mind, although they weren't exactly top shelf anything. Comparing and contrasting the two is a good exercise that reveals superiority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But fantasy has hit a dead end. Sci-fi has not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The trick is finding a genre transcender, like, for instance, Raymond Chandler: The Long Goodbye transcends crime mystery stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20518" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T10:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">How far did you get through ender's game? The first few books were good. But it eventually fell apart completely into space Mormons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just meant the first one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20520" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok... Not the part where it is poligamy and space Mormons.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20521" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you people need to be reading fiction from Shūsaku Endō (Silence), Kazuo Ishiguro (Remains of the Day), Mo Yan (Frog), and the Chinese classics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20522" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wheel of time also started out well, but got harder and harder to read without the story developing significantly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, I always like good recommendations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20524" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Left Hand of Darkness, for instance, by Ursula K. Le Guin has a protagonist on a planet of androgynous people - it is likely taken as some kind of Progressive statement about gender, but in reality I think it much more pro active and insightful than that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="James Heffernan" data-date="2014-09-23T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Heffernan at 2014-09-23T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree that fantasy has hit a dead end. I think most writers struggle with originality, which is why so many fail, but there are a few gems remaining.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eifelheim, by Michael Flynn, about what happens when aliens converge on a medieval village during the time of the plague - now that's a fairly recent book any TACer would like find arresting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">James Heffernan: list off some gems and near gems so we can read 'em if we haven't already.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20528" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T11:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about this:<br />Sci-fi/fantasy suffers from a whole hoard of misogynistic writing and puerile 12 yo fantasies. that's why most of it sucks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20529" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T11:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Song of Ice and Fire (GoT is only the first in the series) is absolutely wonderful, and a great relief to me after being continually sickened by self-satisfied fantasy poking along in a sad Tolkein imitation. Wheel of Time is a perfect example of the kind of fantasy that is almost a parody of itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="James Heffernan" data-date="2014-09-23T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Heffernan at 2014-09-23T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mistborn Trilogy and the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson. Star Bearer Trilogy by Patricia Mckillip.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tbf, most books in any genre--"literary novels" included--are terrible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20532" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">true Joel, but at the same time they don't suffer from the same defects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And yet they were published and people read them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">right, and 80% of men look at porn so what's the problem, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="James Heffernan" data-date="2014-09-23T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Heffernan at 2014-09-23T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So was Twilight.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20536" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Artur Sebastian" data-date="2014-09-23T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Artur Sebastian at 2014-09-23T11:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rosman This is the thread that never ends!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20537" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T11:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Key to writing standard fantasy: come up with almost unpronounceable names that look exotic in print. Come up with an Unlikely Hero as protagonist. A peppy, independent woman needs to be involved, and she has to keep the hero at a distance for a long time before ultimately succumbing as his Prize. There should be prophecies that the characters all distrust but which the author takes very seriously. Probably a few secret clans or mysterious religious groups that the hero at one point will have ot join, demonstrating his fabulousness by reaching the Higher Levels in record time. There will be Good Guys and Bad Guys. Any women worth mentioning will be either young and beautiful, or old so it doesn't matter what they look like. A few characters you like die, and it's sad, but you never doubt that the protagonist will make it through because the author looooooves him and is so impressed with his little fantasy world.<br />George R.R. Martin does none of this shite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did someone block me? No idea what Michael Beitia's porn comment or the "so was Twilight" by Heffernan comment are about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff Neill?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I commented that people read bad fiction and miler motioned other forms of written publications that are commonly (Stupid autocorrxt ). My point is quality is not necessary for success.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't block folk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20542" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T11:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">can you be blocked on your own thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20543" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T11:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Have any of you read Mary Doria Russell's "The Sparrow"? In which Jesuits go on a missionary trip to an alien planet? Very theological. And not pretty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20544" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T11:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All right. I went back and reread my posts. Realize that they were misleading. Sorry folks. My main beef is with the laws against Holocaust denial. I can't find a definition of what that means. It's related to hate speach. Neither of these can I get behind. So, apologies for misleading everyone. <br />My main CONCERN with the holocaust is what is the meaning of it? how was it caused? what were the reasons for antisemitism? ...... because I really think it can happen again. There's also some fuzzy math there. Why the insistence on precisely six million (I honestly don't know the meaning of that number)? Anyways, lots of legit questions that have nothing to do with denying the holocaust.<br />I think Williamson was very imprudent and I DON'T agree with him, but I read up on what happened to him. I don't think anyone here has. strike that. I'm sure the haters haven't. Can't get behind him nor his approval of the "Poem of the Man-God" and other stuff. But I have some sympathy for him. He's an interesting fellow if he's gone off the deep end in a few ways. But I don't know him or any SSPX clergy personally and only met a few on one day. (I think he was mistreated by the SSPX too. Loooooot's to read about that and really really weird how the SSPX -- SO were kicked out.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson wrote,"Sci-fi has the most quality of the last 30-40 years of all the contemporary genres." That's interesting. I can't get into it despite having lots of friends love it. And Jehoshaphat Escalante, I gotta disagree about Dune. A priest and good friend encouraged my reading of that years ago. It's popularity is interesting. In fact, the whole phenomena of sci-fi and fantasy is very interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20546" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rebecca Bratten Weiss - no, but now it is on my list. So do your think Martin is not fantasy, or is better fantasy (I'm assuming).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20547" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:14:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dune is better fantasy than most fantasy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss It's good fantasy. It uses the freedom permitted by the genre well, instead of assuming that the genre provides a blueprint. Reading SOIAF rejuvenated my sense of what fantasy could be, so of course I now have my own fantasy plot in the works, again, after giving up 20 years ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20549" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T11:15:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Dune is a must-read. for many reasons, not least that one is happier when able to make jokes about Spice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T11:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True about Dune. But I had probs with it. LIS the fantasy and sci-fi genre which I loved as a youth are an interesting phenomena.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree that Dune should be read. I can't get behind the Dune love that friends have.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20552" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T11:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rebecca Bratten Weiss IS NOW trapped in the net of tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20553" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T11:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone else read the Shannara books by Terry Brooks as a teenager? Those were delightful, if definitely derivative of Tolkein.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked Terry Brooks. Was long ago, but enjoyed them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20555" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That makes like FIVE real life people I know that are caught up in tNET which is soon to take over all FB.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20556" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The more recent entries, not so much. But the Heritage of Shannara series of four books was really good, especially the Druid of Shannara.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You people also should be reading Richard Russo's accounts of small town life in America. Recognized by everybody, he draws from western NY state where I grew up from time to time. Nobody's Fool was a great movie and the books are better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does LIS stand for?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20560" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T11:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">And taking that up a notch, read Marilynne Robinson (Gilead, etc.) but I think Samantha Cohoe told you that already.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LIS = like I said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20562" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T11:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Thread for recommending Lucky Jim. Brilliantly funny. «...the prospect of reciting the title of the article he'd written. It was a perfect title, in that it crystallized the article's niggling mindlessness, its funereal parade of yawn-enforcing facts, the pseudo-light it threw upon non-problems. Dixon had read, or begun to read, dozens like it, but his own seemed worse than most in its air of being convinced of its own usefulness and significance. 'In considering this strangely neglected topic,' it began. This what neglected topic? This strangely what topic? This strangely neglected what? His thinking all this without having defiled and set fire to the typescript only made him appear to himself as more of a hypocrite and fool.»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20563" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T11:52:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone remember Lloyd Alexander fondly from youth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20564" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T11:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^THE BEST</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20565" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T11:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Westmark! the best!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20566" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my kids have all of them including weird ones about time travelling cats</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20567" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I added Lucky Jim to my list several hundred comments ago. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20568" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now have 10 books to read from tNET. decisions decisions decisions ........</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET or read books?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20570" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia: what should I do? Read some Austen or just continue grilling and deriding her on tNET? WWJD?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20571" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T12:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss What Would Virginia Woolf Do?<br />Never mind....not a good route to follow....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20572" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T12:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Stephen King's Dark Tower series is in many respects very good fantasy; unfortunately, he got himself into a bit of a rut as a popular horror writer and had trouble dislodging himself at times. Nothing against horror - but it's important never to be a slave to one's own idiom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I completely missed "Lucky Jim" being mentioned on tNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">comment 18,674 </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20575" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why do you guys talk about all the fun things when I've got stuff to do?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20576" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">conspiracy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20577" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia-- what is your sister's name? Who is she published with?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20578" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How do you all know which comment number each post is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that was a joke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">People still seem able to tell, for instance, when the round numbers are coming up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20581" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#commentnumbergnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20582" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand the complaint that Harry Potter is "derivative." Who cares? Everything is derivative. Rowling took elements from everything and made an awesome story out of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone holding up "the wind in the willows" and "tom brown's school days" as better examples of kid's lit don't know what kid's lit should be aiming at.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20584" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T12:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T12:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh look yet another Christ allegory.... Should be good reading. ....not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why not? Why wouldn't story-tellers want to borrow from the greatest story in human history?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20586" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#commentnumbergnosis I could tell you, Joel, .....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20587" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you read, you'll see that no-one dislikes it simply b/c it is derivative, but b/c it is a clumsy poorly-told derivative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20588" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, are you really saying that "Wind in the Willows" and "Tom Brown's School Days" aren't as good as HP?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have any of you read Pooh Perplex? He has a hilarious faux- essay by a faux-literary critic who sees Eeyore as the Christ figure (because every story has to has one, he says) of Winnie Pooh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wind in the Willows is so boring.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20591" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.amazon.com/Last-Good-Place-Lily.../dp/0738720682<br />The Last Good Place of Lily Odilon<br />"We have to get to her first…" Abducted? Runaway? Murder victim? Lily Odilon—local wild child from a...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20592" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha! are you serious!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kids don't read it because it's boring.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20594" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">to be clear, this^^^ is not great fiction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20595" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Samantha!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20597" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">ok what about the examples I have earlier? EL Konigsburg and Arthur Ransome?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20598" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pooh Perplex: to top of reading list, Jehoshaphat Escalante</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(who are very different but both very good)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20600" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:34:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read Wind in the Willows time after time as a kid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, those are good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kids love W in [t]W</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20603" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:36:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">my kids love Wind in the Willows</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haven't read enough of either to really judge, Escalante</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20605" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I bet they love Harry Potter more, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because it is so much more fun</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20607" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you got me there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We don't use that word in my household: viz. he who shall not be named.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">20834</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20610" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">but let's discuss the truly great children's literature: eg, ENCYCLOPEDIA BROWN</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">20836 [taunting Joel here]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So is Fifty Shades of Grey--and hey, I bet Christopher West is already working on his book on the Theology of the Body and Fifty Shades of Grey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Not that HP is as bad as that)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20614" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really loved "The Great Brain" series as a kid. Has anyone else read those, or is it a Utah/Idaho thing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20615" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T12:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wind in the Willows is the good shiz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If HP was fun because it titillated, then you would have a point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20617" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T12:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Kipling's imperialist self rawks too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20618" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read them all and loved them when I was little. I don't think I enjoyed them much when I looked back when I was older. (re Michael Beitia's Great Brain Q)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20619" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T12:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Treasure Island is the shiz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20620" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kidnapped is better</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20621" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hunger Games is good because it's a gripping story, which makes up for the stylistic weaknesses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20622" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mockingjay was garbage, though, I'll freely admit that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what about Hinton?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the "Black Arrow". Not so big on Treasure Island.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T12:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dunno Hinton</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Far better than Rowling's Harry Potter series is Ayn Rand's Harry Potter series</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20627" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T12:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Start here: http://the-toast.net/.../ayn-rands-harry-potter.../<br />Ayn Rand's Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone<br />Ayn Rand presents Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.<br />THE-TOAST.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">those are hilarious</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20629" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T12:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kids should read Edgar drunk ass Poe more these days too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There aren't any Ayn Rand fans on tNET, are there? I always like yelling at people about Ayn Rand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">funny, I thought the writing got better as HG went on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">....... Matthew J. Peterson, I think that can give kids nightmares actually. My kids get them from much less. (Poe.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20633" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ayn Rand sucks</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe but the story fell apart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20635" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Ayn Rand sucks" is a repetitive and redundant reiterative statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I felt less like I was being punched in the brain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20637" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T12:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">At this point I think Ayn Rand is overly slammed - people are Rand-shamed into silence when the more interesting question is "why so popular?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-23T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-23T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew you do so know Hinton. Rumble Fish , The Outsiders, etc</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree, Matthew J. Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20640" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rand is only popular because quoting it makes teenage boys feel smart</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20641" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael how can you be so sensitive when you admit to having read a ton of fantasy? Haven't you built up a tolerance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But still, Atlas Shrugged: reading that I felt violated. I did not tear up the book and burn it page by page in just retribution only because it was a library book under someone else's name. no ...... there cannot be too much vituperation for her incessant rant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20643" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T12:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no dog in the fight - I've never really been interested in Rand. I think I tried once and put it down. But it is more interesting to consider why she was and is so popular and why people were and are drawn to it<br />Because leftish pseudo-philosophy fiction that sucks is so pervasive and usual we don't even notice it, and lots of smarties read and cite it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was intrigued by something Jeff said ages ago about Game of Thrones-- something about two gods who haven't been revealed yet fighting it out. Assuming one of them is R'hollor, who is the other one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read Rand on an 800 mile road trip. I should have closed it earlier. Putting it down is the right reaction. I get angry because people actually read it and folllow it and think it's great (I just DON'T get it). Her soul is dead, dead, dead. Love Chamber's criticism "Big Sister is Watching"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">reading a "shit ton" of fantasy doesn't mean one can't see the defects</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20647" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was totally an Objectivist for, like, a week when I was 15 after I read the Fountainhead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20648" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or "The virtue of selfishness"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But grown adults still imbibe that stuff. Like Matthew says, lots of other leftist books that are almost as bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"How Austen introduced the virtue of selfishness" </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20651" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but unless you really like being punched in the brain, having read "a shit ton" of fantasy it is an argument that bad style doesn't make you feel like you're being punched in the brain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20652" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably because as I get older I have less tolerance for crap.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20653" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. I can't read stuff that punches me in the brain. I wanna punch something back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that gets me into troubles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20655" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How come Umberto Eco gets no love?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew Peterson's point bears repeating: "But it is more interesting to consider why she was and is so popular and why people were and are drawn to it." Why is that? This is the sort of thing that I ask about lots of books (including things like Dune and HP and even LOTR). Very interesting and fruitful considerations)\</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, Eco's on my radar and I almost read him. But I've just been soooo disappointed with so many books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read better stuff. Still might look at Eco. Which one do you recommend?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20659" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have all of them. Foucault's Pendulum is a personal favorite, but you might enjoy Baudalino more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20660" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry Sam, at a chiropractor office, but I'm baited to answer your question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">added to reading list ^^^ Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20662" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the best thing is you can usually get them for $.99 on amazon in hard back because no one ever finishes them...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah. I look for those deals, especially for kids books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">["Better books" ======= not novels]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20665" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">like tNET </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Escalante Westmark is not the best L. Alexander; at least, it's a great story but the evil revolutionaries are portrayed as the good guys.... The First Two Lives of Lukas-Kasha was my favorite I think, but it also had the whole women's liberation bit which was tiresome...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How's that quote from Metropolitan (Stillman) go, you know the one about Austen criticism. (Haven't seen it in a while.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20668" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:08:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also Samantha Cohoe: as a child I LOVED the Wind in the Willows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20669" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:09:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can you say it's boring? Toad gowing to jail is boring? Badger collecting clubs and pistols?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as to Ayn Rand, the "moral" philosophy is solipsistic, and can't be argued against. It is purely to make the "objectivist" feel good about himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I even liked Tom Brown's Schooldays as a child, although I admit to finding the beginning and the end parts boring. The middle is intensely exciting though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20672" class="entry even" data-likes="9" data-name="Owen Sweeney" data-date="2014-09-23T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Owen Sweeney at 2014-09-23T13:10:00 with 9 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jr. "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ~ John Rogers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20673" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-23T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-23T13:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">With regard to children's literature, Wind in the Willows is outstanding. <br />Also, have any read the Red Wall books. I found them, on the whole, delightful.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20674" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have the entire Red Wall corpus in the kids' library....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20675" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:12:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked Redwall for a time, but then got "too old" for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20676" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">, “You don’t have to read a book to have an opinion. . . . I don’t read novels. I prefer good literary criticism—that way you get both the novelists’ ideas and the TNET’s thinking.” </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20677" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:12:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure sign of inferior children's lit. is that one gets too old for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Flying Dutchman books got some re-reads from the kids.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20679" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(43, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a bit sad not to be in the boy's club on this one, but I was utterly bored by Wind in the Willows. I don't remember it that well, but I remember how boring I found it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tom's TRUTH: “You don’t have to read a book to have an opinion. . . . I don’t read novels. I prefer good literary criticism—that way you get both the novelists’ ideas and the TNET’s thinking.” ------ his downfall was giving in to reading Austen: classic case of domestication.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I was eight or nine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20682" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T13:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most kids think McDonalds is delicious. This doesn't mean one should allow one's children to eat junk food.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20683" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-23T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-23T13:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have the Chronicals of Prydain been mentioned? They were my favorite for a long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20684" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah, I brought those up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20685" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, maybe Wind in the Willows is the kale smoothie of children's lit, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20686" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:14:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">« The Rat looked very grave, and stood in deep thought for a minute or two. Then he re-entered the house, strapped a belt round his waist, shoved a brace of pistols into it, took up a stout cudgel that stood in a corner of the hall, and set off for the Wild Wood at a smart pace.<br />It was already getting towards dusk when he reached the first fringe of trees and plunged without hesitation into the wood, looking anxiously on either side for any sign of his friend. Here and there wicked little faces popped out of holes, but vanished immediately at sight of the valorous animal, his pistols, and the great ugly cudgel in his grasp; and the whistling and pattering, which he had heard quite plainly on his first entry, died away and ceased, and all was very still. He made his way manfully through the length of the wood, to its furthest edge; then, forsaking all paths, he set himself to traverse it, laboriously working over the whole ground, and all the time calling out cheerfully, 'Moly, Moly, Moly! Where are you? It's me—it's old Rat!' »</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20687" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw, in case there are any weirdos here, "kale smoothie" is a stinging insult</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20688" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-23T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-23T13:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">has anyone else read The Iron Ring by Alexander? probably my favorite of all his books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20689" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:15:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">« 'Exactly,' said the Badger; 'that is my point. The weasels will trust entirely to their excellent sentinels. And that is where the passage comes in. That very useful tunnel leads right up under the butler's pantry, next to the dining-hall!'<br />'Aha! that squeaky board in the butler's pantry!' said Toad. 'Now I understand it!'<br />'We shall creep out quietly into the butler's pantry—' cried the Mole.<br />'—with our pistols and swords and sticks—' shouted the Rat.<br />'—and rush in upon them,' said the Badger.<br />'—and whack 'em, and whack 'em, and whack 'em!' cried the Toad in ecstasy, running round and round the room, and jumping over the chairs. »</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yup</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and by 'weirdos,' I mean, people who claim to like kale smoothies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20692" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I ran around and jumped onto chairs on hearing the above passage read aloud.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(32, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, was that meant to not be boring?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the bit about Toad running around in ecstasy is cute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20695" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not boring.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20696" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So is the imagine of small Pater Edmund jumping on chairs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20697" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the difference is that little boys find swords and sticks endlessly fascinating and little girls don't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20698" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">sexist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20699" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, Prydain has been mentioned implicitly, but Jehoshaphat Escalante prefers Westmark—the crypto-Jacobin!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20700" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-23T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-23T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha I also didn't like WitW but I've read The Swiss Family Robinson about 6 times, (which I know some other people find boring) so I don't totally trust my own judgment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20701" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's called "gender essentialism," and I've already copped to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20702" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you, Nina, I was starting to feel very alone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20703" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they might have chocolate in the recreation room... Hmm the Thread or chocolate with my confreres—hard choice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20704" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw, if I ever get my YA book published, none of you are allowed to read it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Darn, even if you use my walk in the snow description?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's going in the sequel, but no. Not even then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">“You don’t have to read a book to have an opinion. . . . I don’t read novels. I prefer good literary criticism—that way you get both the novelists’ ideas and the TNET’s thinking.” Or should I (re)read the drivel? That is the question. INPUT here please, tNET. Do you have to read it all to have an informed opinion? Can't one limit himself to a few good books to read again and again. Like toad running around and jumping on chairs. That's my opinion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20708" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-23T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-23T13:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">if I ever publish my book I am going to link it on here and I expect everyone to give me five star reviews to help drive up my rating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20709" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My great uncle just read Brideshead Revisited over and over again in the last years of his life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're expecting *these* people to give you a five star review?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, that's what I'm saying. A really good book can be read again and again to much better good than many lesser books.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20712" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:25:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will give five star reviews to any Thread authors who publish novels, but the have to mention the Thread in the author's note.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would read the first part of Brideshead over and over. I don't think the second half bears a lot of re-reading</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20714" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">read all the things</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20715" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">«Young men, especially in America, write to me and ask me to recommend “a course of reading.” Distrust a course of reading! People who really care for books read all of them. There is no other course.» –Andrew Lang</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, Beitia. I think a good selection of all the things is good enough. Like the first couple pages of Twilight. No need to read more.........</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20717" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-23T13:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it seems like a lot of people on here would love to participate in a conspiracy and this seems harmless enough to fulfill their dreams... and to help me out as well. it's a win-win.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">all the things</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20719" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">..........not only that but I COULD not read more. CAN NOT do. It was torture</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20720" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(36, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia = masochist. Sick one he.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20721" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm, that's a good theory Nina.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20722" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-23T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-23T13:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Auf ein baldiges Wiedersehen, Thread, time to go get some Chocolate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I might do that too as long as everyone agrees not to read it. Wouldn't want anyone to feel that they were being punched in the brain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, that is wrong wrong wrong. I like Vives course of reading to a young man beginning on Greek. I think the early books are most important. After you've taken a good course (got a good start), maybe it's ok to READ ALL THINGS. But that's not possible. And many THE BEST THINKERS '/ WRITERS settled on just one or two books (like Plato)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...... The Clouds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20726" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET is like getting punched in the brain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T13:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">AHA! so you do like it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20728" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ masochist QED</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20729" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no, John called it right, I'm a masochist.<br />I finished Auto De Fe by Elias Canetti</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20730" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T13:36:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil FTR, although I certainly think some children's books appeal more to boys, or more to girls, I never thought of The Wind in the Willows as one of those books. I liked it a lot as a child.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20731" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T13:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil (And still do.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20732" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-23T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-23T14:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Also FTR: although it makes for a good simile, Joel HF is way more likely to let his children eat McDonald's than read bad literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20733" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T14:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Simile? Please, it was a metagism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20734" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-23T14:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-23T14:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Wind in the Willows was my all time favorite book growing up, I read it so many times I even made up my own melodies for the poems in it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I used to love the Stillman. I think my disaffection dovetailed with my disaffection for HER who will no longer be named. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20736" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T14:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I Whit Stillman. Weren't we all praising him not long ago on tNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20737" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T14:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everybody should take the Amazon poll so that they make more episodes of The Cosmopolitans.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20738" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:45:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Wind in the Willows is absolutely wonderful. I still stand by this as a life philosophy: “Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20739" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, the Redwall series is some of the best children's literature ever. I have never gotten tired of that series and still return to favorite scenes and events in my imagination. Martin the Warrior was my favorite entry. I have to admit that they got a mild repetitive the more Brian Jacques wrote, God rest his soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20740" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:50:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, I met Jacques when I was about 10 years old. My Dad took me to a book signing, and I waited in line with my heart pounding. When I got up to the front, he shook my hand and said in his delightful Scouser accent "What's your name then?"<br />"My name's Isak," I said. He looked me up and down for a second, and I will never forget what he said next.<br />"And with a cold smile, Isak drew his sword and lopped off the head of the principal."<br />Then he signed two of my books. I still have them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20741" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">He looked in my soul and gave me a story. Summed up my essence at age 10. God bless him, I miss him so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T14:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T14:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss I LOVED Wind in the Willows when I was very small. But I also eat kale in large quantities, and not in smoothies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T14:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">kale's fine if you cook it with bacon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20744" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T14:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Note to self: if you leave the never ending thread, you will miss the discussion on Ayn Rand, and the opportunity to talk about being a teenage objectivist, and how it does NOT get one dates.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-23T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-23T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss I sautee it in butter with scads of garlic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that works, too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20747" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T14:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"objectivist"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I didn't get any dates that one week when I was 15.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20749" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T14:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those were strange times, the '50s...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20750" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian Jacques, people. Brian Jacques. Go read Redwall again, Pater Edmund </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20751" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T14:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That was a good story, Isak. I feel it deserves more recognition than a couple of likes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20752" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET recognizes it, likes or no. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20753" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is your name spelled like that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20754" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's Czech. I'm named after Isak Dinesen. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, that's all right, then.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20756" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm so glad you approve...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wasn't she Danish?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T14:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T14:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but Isak Dinesen was her pen name.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20759" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been meaning to ask you that for a while, but I figured I should wait until after I said something nice, to balance out the rudeness. Did it work?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20760" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have any of you read her short story Sorrow-Acre? I want to hold a beer seminar soon on it. Breathtaking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha I wouldn't have minded. It's an unusual spelling, not rude to ask about it in my opinion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is Cohoe a Scottish name?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one knows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20764" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Cohoe who first emigrated this way was from Ireland, but they think the name may have originated elsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also - deceptively attractive and ultimately insidious children's series - His Dark Materials, Philip Pullman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Irish = Awesome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, my maiden name is Scottish. I'm not Irish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Still awesome</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20769" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was gobsmacked when I finished His Dark Materials.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20770" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gobsmacked! SUCH a good word</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Philip Pullman might actually be evil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of all the places in the world, the one I want to visit most is Ireland. All of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd rather go to Scotland.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20774" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you might be right. About Pullman that is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20775" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_20776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man! I was so close!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20777" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't gotten any of the ,000 comments!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NAILED IT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20779" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET CAN DRINK NOW</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20780" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to buy tNET a whiskey sour. That was my first legal drink in a bar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay time to teach some rhetoric classes. See you later TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got several, Samantha. But I have an army of kids that monitor the situation so that I can pounce on the glory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[I am a crypto-rabbit. Don't tell Michael Beitia.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[undomesticated though]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20786" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(93, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T15:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here I am back when I was just a weee little tike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgj3nZWtOfA<br />Monty Python The Holy Grail - The killer bunny<br />Here is the infamous rabbit scene. That rabbit's dynamite!<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20787" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T15:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">21012 - Palindromic is better than round. Just sayin'<br />#mathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20788" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guess I'll just have to shoot for 32123</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20789" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or 21112 - it's closer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">211112 - purer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20791" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T17:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ugh... I just lost what I typed for you. <br />The title actually fits the series, "a song of ice and fire". The story is of theology, politics and ethics. The main gods being a diafied ice god and fire god, each controlling the seasons of summer and winter. (Hence seasons can last years or generations). <br />The stark family starts as the most virtuous, but through excesses in their virtues, the patents die and their children become the extremes, personified Demi-God in the "tree of life, and personified Demi-God in "death" (faceless ones). <br />Only through renouncing vice and sin are any characters saved. <br />What hooks the reader is the slow train wreck of best intentions that devolve into "just punishment". <br />At this point you could almost make a Christ allegory or Homeric epic, with the onion knight as the "good thief" and Reek as Judas.<br />I anticipate that the family will reunite, but will destroy themselves as the pawns of the ice and fire gods.<br />I could type more but thumbs on cell phones are not good mediums for typing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">onion knight and Reek. Is that one or two people?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Huh, so is there a god of the white walkers who is the ice god?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And who do you see getting "saved" by renouncing vice and sin?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20795" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And don't say Jaime. His redemption arc is a big con Martin is trying to play on us</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20796" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The hound joins a monastery. (He didn't die)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jamie is partially redeemed but I agree he will fall again. <br />And the "onion knight" and reek are two people. (Sorry if I wasn't clear... For those that haven't read)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20798" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes the white walkers are from the ice God but are not it itself. <br />That the white walkers even exist is one of the best subplots since they do not have an active role (since everything is perspective based and they are barely encountered)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Re: the hound-- Is that a theory, or did I miss a major plot point?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Missed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the imp.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20802" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T18:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a theory, but the textual evidence is extremely strong (and George RR had all but admitted it in interviews, I believe)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20803" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T18:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Deaths that occur off stage in A Song of Ice and Fire are always suspect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The challenge is you never get a clear Theon Greyjoy is now just called Reek until much further. In he tv series it is very immediately clear that he is reek.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20805" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even on stage deaths are suspect</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Out of nowhere you have zombies, undead and Frankenstein.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20807" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T18:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T18:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, even some on stage deaths are suspect, though usually there is at least an actual (though perhaps not final) death.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless they are burned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20810" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't like Daenaries. (Spelling?) she has too many flaws and set on way too high of a pedestal with a "divine right of kings" subtext.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20811" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll take Austen over Martin...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20812" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T18:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daenerys, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...and I probably won't take Austen... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One writes of social ethics on the small scale, the other on social ethics of a large scale. <br />I prefer global politics over. Local.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20815" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know, they're not really comparable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Best children's literature for adults? <br />I vote The Velveteen Rabbit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20817" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Winnie the Pooh. Or Alice in wonderland. (Euclid #gnosis)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20818" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Little Prince.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here are a few gems to ponder. http://www.buzzfeed.com/patric.../touch-the-cow-do-it-now...<br />19 Unintentionally Disturbing Moments From Kids' Books<br />" Touch the COW. Do it now. "<br />BUZZFEED.COM|BY PATRICK SMITH</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still not convinced by the virtue narrative though, Jeff. Weren't the hound's "last" regrets wishing he'd gone ahead and raped Sansa when he had the chance?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20821" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T18:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This thread makes me wonder if there is an inverse proportion between a man's dislike of Austen and his height.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20822" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(53, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T18:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And tyrion doesn't turn to virtue, he's just consistently less horrible than everyone else</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20823" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel - that one went right over my head...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T18:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Men who love Austen do not do so in proportion to height, necessarily, but those who dislike her? You wouldn't happen to be extremely short would you Isak Benedict? Just a wild guess!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just a little humor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20826" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am quite short, but you mean to tell me you had no previous knowledge of that? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T18:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sam, Sandor said that only to taunt Arya to kill him and end his suffering.. It wasn't genuine. As for tyre ion, he is on a slow path to virtue, with his obvious vice of lust, which he is trying to overcome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20828" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T18:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is John Ruplinger also short? What made you wonder about an inverse proportion? If at the very least a correlation could be established that would be truly hilarious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How much do I like Austen?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#gnosis<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffyiV14LmDQ<br />Akram Khan - Gnosis<br />Sadler's Wells Theatre 26 & 27 April 2010 Khan's new solo piece, created with Gauri Sharma Tripathi and Pratap...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-23T19:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-23T19:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#teasergnosis<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWRjcLdJvMw<br />AKRAM KHAN: TEASER GNOSIS<br />teaser de l'émission de Arte du 3 juillet 2010, chorégraphie: akram khan, réaiisation: denis caïozzi, production:...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, you're right, I misremembered. I did read all the books over the course of about two months, so it blurs together a bit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But when does tyrion ever try to overcome his lust?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">After he's married he lives a chaste life (since his wife hates him)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20835" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T19:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And also, I felt very conned by these redemption arcs in which true moral monsters (Jaime and Sandor) are suddenly so sympathetic because they kind of refrain from doing horrible things for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He isn't an angel though... But he makes a legit go at living a virtuous life And seeking a student (since he is the philosopher teacher)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20837" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jaime POV chapters spend all this time reassuring us that he had really good reasons for killing the mad king, whereas throwing bran out the window is never addressed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not so sure Tyrion is really getting better throughout the series.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20839" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Sandor feels bad for letting the kingsguard mistreat Sansa, but that's totally mild compared to chopping up he butchers boy and dropping him home in a sack</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-23T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-23T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the last book, tyrion spends all his time drunk and despondent, not exactly a step toward virtue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T19:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, better than what he was doing the last time we saw him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Hard to talk about this book w/o spoiling stuff.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trying to work on the vice of lust. Hah. Said every man ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20844" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I'm not reading all this crap. But I'm not watching it either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20845" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T19:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I forget the Saint, but I remember in one sermon Father Buckley said "And this holy woman was even tempted by impure thoughts on her death-bed...of all places!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20846" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I was on a two week vacation I might take all the books with me but as things stand I don't start with Martin because if it hooks me I WILL immoderately ingest them all ASAP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20847" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like an ANIMAL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20848" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If animals could read, and the desire for story was base, and ... hmm</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T19:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When do we circle back to Theology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20850" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like a rational ANIMAL.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Andrew Seeley points out, Aristotle never calls human beings rational animals.<br />Who does first? What is the source of the phrase? When does it become popular?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20852" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T19:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Porphyry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And does it just take off from there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why does he introduce it and how - its a bizarre bit, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T19:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why whenever I hear his name do I think of this cartoon jingle music behind someone saying in chipper voice: "porphyry the phoenician!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20856" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great point in Jamie, but then again, the story isn't over yet.... And the Stark family is known for dispensing justice.<br />But as said before, you don't want to give it away in the event people despise to read it themselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20857" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T19:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Porphyry does it in the Isagoge, in attempting to fill out his tree so as to give full evidence for the predicables; though he actually subdivides rational animal into mortal and immortal. I think it might be Boethius who runs amok with the definition, actually, but my late Ancient/early Medieval is a little fuzzy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Porphyry is the source for it at TAC, but it is naturally put on Aristotle almost without noticing. Clearly it was a scholastic thang, but it would be interesting to examine more closely. <br />I don't remember it from what we read of Boethius but it's been a long time since I've read him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20859" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T20:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Deely has written about the issue piecemeal here and there (I think the longest treatment would be either in The Four Ages or Medieval Philosophy Redefined), but usually in the context of his arguing for his own proposed definition of the human being, "semiotic animal".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20860" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cooked bacon eating animal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">consensual mating animal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20862" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">smoking animal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20863" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The laziest animal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^these all suffice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20865" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">ashamed of its own body animal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T20:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T20:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Psh. According to a commercial I saw repeatedly on Sunday while chugging beer after beer, sitting on my couch, watching the Chiefs on my 40" TV, koalas sleep 18-22 hours a day. Now that's lazy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What other animal wants privacy when excreting fluids?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20868" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNetting animal?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20869" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^thats a contradiction. To be tNetting is to transcend animality completely and to be subsumed up into something wholistic and greater!<br />But this is disputed among the wise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">One potential problem with "rational animal" is how bifurcated it is.<br />For the whole might be greater than or substantially different than the parts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20871" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">dirty joke telling animal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T20:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNetting sounds an awful lot like some sort of proto-transhumanist-singularity. Teilhard would be happy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20873" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T20:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T20:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#rationalanimalgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20874" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Could there be another "rational animal" (w/ animal said loosely)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, either that or tNetting is a sign of inherent contradiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You mean rational aliens? Yah, why not? It almost seems likely to me at this point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20877" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T20:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">An extraterrestrial, corporeal critter who has possession of an intellect would by definition be a human.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To interact with such a creature would help us understand what intellect/reason/"rational" means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20879" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So many potential sci-fi novels going through my head...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Makes me think of the Ender's Game series, actually.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20881" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to logon echon zoon. Ti esti logos;</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many series get into this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20883" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The trads will want to slay the aliens as demons. You can count on that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mad, alien hating trads.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20885" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Jesus didn't die for alpha centauri"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20886" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">mad alien hating animal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20887" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trads are a different species.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20888" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-23T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-23T20:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It makes me think of sci-fi novels too. Like that French guy who wrote all those science fiction books, Teilhard de something or another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thank you^ ^ Brian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always wanted to write one wherein Adam and Eve being locked out of the garden means being relegated to earth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20891" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does it mean to be exiled from it? Flaming sword which turned every which way guarding it. Heh. Don't see that around in the Middle East or anywhere on earth, literalists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Read Efelheim, people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-23T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-23T20:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I argued, at TAC tongue in cheek, that whales must also be rational animals.<br />Note, in Genesis 1, two words are used, one rendered usually "make" and the other "create". God created the heavens and the earth. God made/formed the animals on land. God created man. God made the birds. But it also says God created the whales. Well the rational soul requires a special act of creation, and so rational animals cannot be simply made. Besides, we see that they are unfallen servants of od in Jonah. QED<br />The argument was not accepted strangely enough</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-23T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-23T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle does call man a social animal and a political animal. It seems to me that, while he didn't personally use the term rational animal, that is implied even here. How do we distinguish, e.g., the society that is an ant hive, or a wolf pack, from society as said of man? Or for that matter, being political as opposed to merely being united and having a rule amongst a group? Reason enters into the definition of these things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He does call him the animal having reason in the politics. Logon echon. I want to say book one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">imitative animal in Poetics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, to be social and political implies reason. But what reason is is a tricky business, as is how, exactly, it enters into the notion of political man. <br />It seems more obvious and clear to say we are social or political. Reason enters into the definition of human beings as political, to be sure. But to say the political animal is more sure and readily understood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question is what we mean when we say "rational." Discursive reason is one thing, and it is a mystery in itself when we really bear down on what it is and means.<br />But reason seems to mean a hell of a lot of things. Without some kind of self-awareness there is no reason of the sort we mean, no? Or - wait - but - heh. Disputes on every side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T20:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd answer what reason is, but that'd be a spoiler for my dissertation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">en arche en ho logos. . . . John 1.1</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20901" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T21:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T21:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in principio erat Verbum</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20902" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T21:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^Word</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T21:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T21:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you have an abstract or proposal, Brian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Proposal is in the works, submitting a draft at the end of this week.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20905" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe we need Scott back to give us his #logosgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Politics 1253a. But he does speak differently of man in divers works. Logos means speech there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20907" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T21:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If aliens came to Earth Peterson would make felt banners with them<br />#elmersgluegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20908" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T21:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">and teach them "on angels wings"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T21:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This banner over me is total domination</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20910" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Major premise: I have the technology to arrive your world unnoticed....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, you're not an alien, but a Californian (little difference)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm from Irvine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is more like the Borg, we assimilate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You've heard of their popo right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no clue what you're typing about</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-23T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok I'll drop it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T21:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">is this a Star Trek next generation reference? WTH is popo?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20919" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T21:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrjmeGKoR1E<br />Napoleon Dynamite - I don't understand a word you just said<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. Pray like the aliens would convert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But work like this:<br />http://www.youtube.com/embed/elJ3t6AOPJc?autoplay=1<br />ALIENS Robot Sentry Guns - Deleted Scenes<br />Delete Scenes: ALIENS (1986) This scene features the...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20922" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T23:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">would you at least teach them how high to raise a pseudopod for the responsorial? Show them how to give the tentacle of peace?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20923" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-23T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-23T23:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nonpseudopod raising rational animals</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I don't think the Aliens in Aliens are rational creatures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20925" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T23:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">depends on what they burst out of. I saw Alien Resurrection in the theater with you, remember?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-23T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-23T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"of what they burst out" damn dangling participle</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20927" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier The new translations of Aristotle, Descartes, and others change everything. There, that ought to keep the thread going!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20928" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier May I add, Joe Sachs ROCKS!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr. Do tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is joe Sachs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20931" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:36:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier My old friend from SJC, and a fine translator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20932" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-23T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-23T23:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He wrote an excellent commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kathleen Kathleen Wilson. Help a sister out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20934" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T23:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being-at-work-staying-itself! I love to irritate my colleagues with that one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20935" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_9...<br />Amazon Search<br />Online shopping from a great selection at Books Store.<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cheers! Thank you </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T23:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I have to give the nod to the Bartlett & Collins translation of the Nicomachean Ethics over Sachs'; the former is less awkward and more approachable for students.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^You've use it in class and approve, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20939" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:40:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I use both.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep. I think it was on your suggestion, too, so thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I use Sachs for myself, in conjunction, but it's difficult enough getting students to buy one translation of what I assign... and also getting the book store to actually place my orders.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Richard Delahide Ferrier - both as in the Bartlett and Collins along with Sachs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20944" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good to know! I can't wait to have occasion to teach the Ethics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20945" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thread is awesome again!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I am doing it now ... it is so rich and subtle ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hah. Where are you now (in the Ethics)?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20948" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Finishing book 2</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20950" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Bless you, Liz!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kidding</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Simple, simple child that I am. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_20953" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier k</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20954" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-23T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-23T23:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm bridging book 2 and 3.1-5. It's a lot to cover, but I used this book as an introduction, which summarily covers a lot of the issues--so I'm pinpointing the areas where Aristotle gives more nuanced and sophisticated reasoning about the mean, the voluntary/involuntary, and deliberation--though less so on the lattermost, because I'm also doing Aquinas on that, and I think he's better. <br />http://www.amazon.com/Living.../dp/0813221455/ref=sr_1_1...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-23T23:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-23T23:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you for the blessings dr f</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20956" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">To spend a whole semester teaching the Ethics! I hope your students love this opportunity, Richard Delahide Ferrier.<br />What's got their interest so far, and yours?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20957" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier tall order!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20958" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier well, the way A. keeps offering a bit, and then changing it. The big tease about the idea of the Good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20959" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:52:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier But most of all, the way happiness seems to depend on the Divine ... and yet, that A. won't go there ..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20960" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-23T23:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-23T23:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahah. I love how Aristotle naturally ticks good students off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20961" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:53:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Bad students think he lays it all out, and even proves it all. They are objects of pity ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20962" class="entry even" data-likes="11" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-23T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-23T23:56:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier So, have I kept the thread going for a bit? If so, I have not lived in vain! lol.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was able to start my into to Am government at CMC this year with selections on democracy from the Politics. And I loved how a few students called out the back and forth dialectic of the treatise.<br />"But he says here that the many added together... but over here he says the many added together..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20964" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T00:10:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are all extremely fortunate - extremely blessed - to have had such teachers as Richard Delahide Ferrier.<br />It takes many years to fully realize such things - how rare some people are. I can't believe what I took for granted as an undergraduate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20965" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-24T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-24T00:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hated Junior philosophy (I don't blame the tutor -- but my immaturity). But my daughter is happy in your class Dr Richard Delahide Ferrier</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T00:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T00:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of the best arguments I ever had on campus was with Peter Schofield over whether or not Aristotle had pulled the wool over all our eyes concerning the idea of the Good. I believe we eventually agreed, after some hours and the coming and going of many temporary participants, that he was indeed a giant tease and that that was perfectly okay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T00:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I regret that I never had Dr. Ferrier as a tutor. I remember fondly the many spontaneous conversations on the smokers' patio.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20968" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-24T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-24T00:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I had to quit smoking ...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T00:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you have my prayers for your fortitude's endurance, good sir!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20970" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-24T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-24T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I do regret the way tobacco leads to good talk ...it's not for me anymore!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20971" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T01:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">To me Sachs's English is a little too weird; like Heidegger's German, which I think it is imitating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20972" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T01:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Irritating?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20973" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T01:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak: your Brian Jacques story is amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20974" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-24T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-24T01:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I think H. has the Greek right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20975" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T01:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There was a time when a new Redwall story coming out was a great event to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20976" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T01:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of them formative moments. When the kid in front of me in line told Jacques his name was Derek, he just quipped "Desperate Derek" and signed his book.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20977" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T01:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got a sword.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20978" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T01:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T01:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I felt special.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20979" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T01:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But surely Sachs is good for getting people thinking, no? I would likely never assign one of his translations only in a class, but his translations are always essential for triangulation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20980" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T01:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T01:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All time favorite use of the word "gobsmacked" was in the Guardian's brilliant 2010 video on the Tory Conference. It's at about 1:22: http://www.theguardian.com/.../conservative-party...<br />(You will like this Richard Delahide Ferrier and Matthew J. Peterson)<br />VIdeo: Conservative party conference: Are we all in this together? | John Harris<br />Harris's fringe: John Harris gauges the reaction to the...<br />THEGUARDIAN.COM|BY JOHN HARRIS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20981" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T01:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T01:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I agree that Sachs is good for triangulation, but if one is only going to read one translation then Sachs is too weird.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20982" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T01:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way, Richard Delahide Ferrier:<br />"Tuesday, October 7, will be Harry Jaffa’s 96th birthday! There will be an open house at his home in Claremont that day (come on by when you can, it is an all-day event). If you cannot attend, he would certainly enjoy hearing from you. Send him a birthday card with some comments, or give him a call. Harry is no longer as physically strong as he once was, but his mind is as sharp as ever. <br />Address and phone # available upon request.<br />Pass the info on to others as appropriate; it would be nice to fill his house and mailbox, and make the day especially memorable."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20983" class="entry odd" data-likes="12" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-24T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-24T01:13:00 with 12 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I think I have done my part for tonight. Would you all please pray for me tonight, for my kidney disease? and also for Jeremy Holmes, and many others, who are not well?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20984" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-24T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-24T01:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sachs' account of the definition of motion is the best I've encountered; moreover, the etymologically-based translation of the key terminology does most definitely help someone get at the nitty-gritty all-too-often obfuscated by the nice and neat Scholastic terminology.<br />And it is in the line of Heidegger's thinking--Sachs takes it from Klein, who took it from Heidegger. Joseph Owens, particularly in his masterful bit of scholarship The Doctrine of Being in the Aristotelian Metaphysics, is also influential on his thinking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T01:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T01:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many prayers Mr. Ferrier! For you and for Jeremy Holmes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20986" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T01:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I could just write a review of a new Ethics translation for the NYT when I'm in my 90s...<br />http://www.nytimes.com/.../book-review-aristotles...<br />Book Review - Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics<br />A new translation of Aristotle’s “Ethics” addresses the...<br />NYTIMES.COM|BY BY HARRY V. JAFFA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20987" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(People need to watch the "gobsmacked" video; it's awesome).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20988" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T01:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. In prayer with much love and respect for Richard Ferrier et. al.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-24T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-24T01:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is CDK's dissertation in the collected works? (Seems a good a place as any to ask the question)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20990" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-24T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 97%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-24T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier May I say this? I am not worthy. I am just trying to follow the ... very tough ... text. I am not at all sure that it conforms to my [our] Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20991" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T01:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-24T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-24T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good. I was too lazy to go look on my bookshelves because they are very out of order right now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20993" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T01:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">v.1, called something like "the Philosophy of Sir Arthur Eddington"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20994" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T07:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T07:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">6 hours? Where's the night time (day time European) contingent?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T08:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T08:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just hope RDF doesn't run junior philosophy like it was ruined for me "let's go through this line by line"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20996" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T10:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's dead...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20997" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I apologize for dropping the ball on this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have been busy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_20999" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That gobsmacked video is priceless.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21000" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, homebirth--gross or the grossest?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am just going to throw out a controversial position I hold to see if I can help things along.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Beat you to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Joel! No!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said controversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21005" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not dangerous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21006" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still hold that marriage is not properly speaking a vocation. It is only derivatively, so called.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21007" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is there a mob of women waving pitchforks and torches outside my door?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21008" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^doomed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21009" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-24T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-24T10:29:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like baiting aspiring mommy bloggers is the derivative vocation of tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21010" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T10:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">home birth is fine. some of mine were born at home. no biggie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21011" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Catholics get way too hung up on "vocation" generally. I'd have to dig up the research I did, but even those about to enter the priesthood don't have a "vocation" until they are actually called during the ordination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Btw. I am serious. And not trying to bait.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21013" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(57, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T10:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The worst part was after my daughter was born, I had to empty out the inflatable pool myself....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21014" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, such was my conclusion a few years back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sooooo gross!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with you, Joel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21017" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T10:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">gross? not really. just more to do</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21018" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But seriously, vocational discernment because such a means for psychological and emotional constipation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21019" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:39:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^And this is because most people misunderstand vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21020" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T10:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Considering how fast things went with my first, I don't think I have an option not to have a home birth next time!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21021" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never understand when unmarried people say, "I have a vocation to the married state." Or, "God is calling me to marriage." <br />How on earth could one distinguish between "God's call," and natural inclinations?<br />Does a woman have a vocation to marry men in general?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21022" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T10:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you're right Daniel. Vocation as call can only be named after the fact.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21023" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only vocation that is so called, simply, is the universal call to holiness, the perfect fulfillment of which is religious life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21024" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is why Aquinas can say that all are called to the religious life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks like everyone agrees with Daniel. On the other hand I raise truly controversial sayings. Just call me troll master.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">On vocation: http://www.firstthings.com/.../love-god-and-do-what-you...<br />Love God and Do What You Will: Avoiding Over-Devotion to Our Lady of Perpetual...<br />FIRSTTHINGS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I thought I'd get more push-back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21028" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T10:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got a lot of flak over the same claim when I was at TAC.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21029" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T10:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought I'd have hordes of women descending on me. Maybe I need to work on my trolling.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21030" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T11:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman--Of course, back then, you'd make the same points somewhat more ... controversially!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21033" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I also sang sweet tunes!<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri5k3VkmGPA<br />Man Faced Ox Progeny - The Longest Time<br />Short clip of Billy Joel's "The Longest Time" sung impromptu by TAC's barbershop quartet in 2004.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trolling 101. #trollgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21035" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-24T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-24T11:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Has anyone else noticed that The Artist Formerly Known as Peregine is now trolling on the TAC Alum Facebook group?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21036" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I forgot we had one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yep...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trolling 201. #Ultimatetrollgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21040" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T11:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">the PB is trolling the Alumni page right now in fact</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21041" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heh. I just realized I never joined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am now a member!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, I'll bite: maythis ease your boredom. I think that marriage can absolutely be called a vocation. As mentioned above, we are all called to holiness, but each life we choose is accompanied by different duties. A priest's duties are different from a wife's but both aspire to be closer to God. To discern one's vocation is to discern what duties you are must capable of fulfilling and to live a life succeeding in those duties chosen is to live your call to holiness: hence, vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you for your courage Annette!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21045" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T11:25:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Daniel is correct more or less- the modern Christian usage of "vocation" for any craft, occupation, or state in life is a Lutheran usage originally, because we rejected (and still do reject) the idea that "religious life" is the perfection of a life of holiness; all licit modes of human life are "religious" for us. Modern Catholics have adopted our language without being very clear what they mean by it; Lendman's position is the traditional one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21046" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I would only point out that that is a derivative use of the term.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^By "you" I meant Annette.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21048" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I agree with you too, Jehoshaphat.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I would argue that "any craft, occupation, or state" is not necessarily vocational because not every craft or occupation is necessarily spiritual.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Annette, that would just beg the question, and restate the fact of the Protestant/Catholic difference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21051" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought the question broached was whether marriage is vocational, and, if so is it vocational in the narrower Catholic sense, or only in the broader sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21052" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Controversy: "Daniel is too agreeable. Is it really him or an FBbot.?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T11:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">in the traditional Catholic view, marriage is vocational because sacramental, but not in the plenary sense that religious life is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dont think so, formerly known as JA. Vocation is strictly a call to leave ALL for the kingdom of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21055" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T11:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think the single life could be called sacramental, yet it still can be vocational for Catholics. Would it not follow then that vocation and sacrament are, at least to some degree, separate subjects?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21056" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Marriage is a sacrament. Religious life is not. It is a call from God. God does not "call" people to marriage. Concupiscence often leaves that calling card as Lendman noted above. Good question: when was marriage first called a vocation among Catholics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John I think marriage is secondarily vocational in RC thought nowadays at least. And Jesus called Peter, but Peter remained married, so I don't think your definition quite works</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21058" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T11:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's only very very recently that people call the single life a vocation. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21059" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T11:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and it seems like a cop out [ducks]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21060" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T11:45:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">unless we're using "vocation" analogously to "for the greater glory of God". then it is so watered down in meaning that it becomes meaningless</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T11:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tonsure is a sacrament in the East, and this is probably the more consistent position</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21062" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T11:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do laundry "for the greater glory of God" </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21063" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T11:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I swear for the greater glory of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21064" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T11:47:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel called to smoke a cigarette, is that my vocation for the next 10 minutes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21065" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T11:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Michael?" <br />"here I am Lord"<br />"go smoke"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21066" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21067" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">JA, I only asked your question in different words. When did we start watering down vocation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21068" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T11:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">probably the 60s (because that's when everything happens)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21069" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So we're back to marriage being vocational in-so-far as it comes with its own duties within the general call to holiness. I don't know whether that is a watered down view, but I'll concede it is a broader one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21070" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, you may lack the the gift of discernment of voices. just saying. not that i dont smoke too. Incense in the temple of the Holy Spirit. . . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21071" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. Marriage is a vocation in a derivative sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21072" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T11:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Being single is in no way a vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T11:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">analogous or equivocal? ^ 2 UP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah... I think that one could say that it is analogous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21075" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-24T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-24T12:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">See! I am the oracle of RC orthodoxy. Thanks Daniel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T12:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I though that the single life could referred to as vocational when a single person uses the freedom of not being committed to either spouse or church in order to devote himself to others in ways that neither priest or married person could. Going back to duties within the call to holiness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^purely equivocal?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21078" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is, "being single" is not a state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21079" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not a dig on singles to say they don't have a vocation . . . . like a religious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Still, it seems unsatisfying to entirely rule out single life as being without vocation...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21081" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T12:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it can be if you're a consecrated single...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21082" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the problem with understanding vocational in any way other than sacramental opens up a whole hoard of watered-down 'meanings'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21083" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is an in between and imperfect life. There can be no state of life without some sort of vow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">much better than getting left out of the kingdom of heaven altogether, Anette. Our dissatisfaction is an effect of living in an egalitarian society. " But i want the right to have a baby" syndrome. We are not all equal in every respect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vocation does not pertain to the permissive will of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is also the "state" of life that everyone is born into. there is no change in state from infancy onward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21087" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"it" being single</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21088" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, did you say all were called to the religious life above?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21089" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T12:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I'm not thinking as an egalitarian. I'm thinking in terms of devotion. I think there is a place for the unique positioning of a single person within the call to holiness. Someone who purposely remains single lives a life of devotion different from that of a married person or a priest, and takes on different spiritual duties. Does that not suggest room for some other category of vocation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21090" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T12:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman--what of those who vow to remain single? One doesn't *necessarily* enter an order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T12:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Precisely.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21092" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T12:27:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, I think a "vocation" only exists properly for priests after they have been "called" at ordination. But I can't find any of the stuff I wrote on it, and I've completely forgotten my argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a feel good watered down thing. Everyone is as good as everyond. We are all just as good as each other. No one feels left out. That's how i see it. Anti-elitism. But striving for holiness is by its nature elitist just as the religious vocation is by its nature higher.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">single vows are good. Just not a religious vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Annette, I agree with all you say above except calling it vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21096" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See, Joel agrees with me too (except that religious life has always been considered a vocation).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">except tonsure was not considered sacramental (in the West)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am by no means arguing from a "first place for all" standpoint, and I think I agree with you in saying that only ordained priests devote themselves to religious life in the true sense, and, consequently, their lives are the proper definition of "vocation". However God does call us all, and based on our path in life we serve him in different ways. Again, I concede a broader use of "vocation", but not that it is necessarily watered down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21099" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not budging on watered down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21100" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">holy orders:broad sense vocation :: private fb message: posting on tNET<br />#ratiognosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21101" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe it is bad analogy time:<br />priesthood:broad sense vocation::limo:bus</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21102" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be clear. I do not like using the word vocation in this way. The religious life (esp the contemplative) is denigrated and misunderstood. Most have no idea what it is nor its importance for the Church and the good of the state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21103" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21104" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, one does not need to be in an order to be a religious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21105" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">narrow sense vocation:broad sense vocation::personal chef:buffet table</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21106" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">bad analogy hour is much better than pun til you puke hour</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21107" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(214, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:49:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I once was talking to John Nieto about this question at his house as we were drinking fine scotch, smoking cigars, having just finished a couple bottles of wine and a nice meal, and he pointed around his house and said, "You think this is a vocation?!?!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21108" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#anecdotetime ^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21109" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T12:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">#anecdotegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, they used to call diocesan priests "secular priests" (and that may still be the proper name for them). But I was thinking of something like Msgr. Knox who vowed to be celibate as a young man--of course, he wasn't Catholic at the time. He wasn't in an order or even a priest, had he lived out his life (and been Catholic) I'd be willing to call that a derivative vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am lucky to attend mass and receive direction at a monastery. So i see its effects first hand. I became aware most especially of them when reading the life of Sister Mariana.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21112" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T12:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman--many a Jesuit has lived in nicer digs while enjoying fine scotch and cigars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21113" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T12:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the scriptures are clear: single life>married life. Vocation does seem to be something different, strictly speaking, since a priest could be married.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21114" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Priesthood is not by nature a vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Strictly speaking, Priesthood is a vocation derivatively.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's a vocation then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, it is strange because being a bishop is a vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A vocation is a call by God to holiness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21119" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T12:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, to perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I also read the lives of the early Jesuits at Marquette. They lived poverty while enjoying the ocassional cigar. The traditional Jesuit was the greatest ascetic . . . . without appearing to be so. . . . St. Anthony Marie Claret's autobiography gives good insight into Jesuit virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21121" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T13:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">In support of Daniel Lendman: http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/.../theology-of-vocations/<br />Theology of vocations<br />(Since we had lots on this in the past, might as well keep adding stuff): Some eminently sensible stuff in Hilary...<br />EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-24T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-24T13:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, I'm agreement with you about marriage, re: calling it a vocation. And I don't think the regular single life is a vocation. But in my mind the priesthood is, in fact, a vocation in the full sense. What's your reason for saying it is derivative?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21123" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is still room for use of the term "vocation" as a discernment of duties toward the goal of committing one's life to growing closer to God. Perhaps a lesser meaning than applying the term to priests who are the ones truly committed to religious life, but not in the meaningless way that a secular person might call "teaching" a vocation. "Vocation" as just "something I do or how I live" is what I would call watered down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21124" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-24T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-24T13:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd also be interested to know people's thoughts about the priesthood and the religious life. They are usually listed as different "vocations", yet often (not always, of course) religious are ordained. Is this a strange crossover between states of life?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21125" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T13:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been called to a vacation vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, THANKS for the link. I think it answers a lot of questions and dispels confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21127" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T13:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T13:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The watered-down vocation of a water-park vacation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21129" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about vocational school?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T13:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">called to fix the plumbing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean, see Joel's link for what a priestly vocation is. Makes sense of your question i think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21132" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T13:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many vocation centers are in India, but nothing can hide the accent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21133" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">shit vocation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">holy sh*t</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sanctification of . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21136" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do enjoy the religious/non-religious distinction in diocesan priests vs religious priests. But it would seem that both are proper vocations. As for the "single vocation" that is not the colloquial "confirmed bachelor"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . would that be a second or third class relic?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, "Priesthood is not by nature a vocation."<br />Isn't it the case that no one is made a priest unless chosen by the Church? That, to me, seems to be what is definitive of a vocation: the Church picks you to serve her through a public act (ordination, in the case of priests).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21139" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ see Joel's link</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21140" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">religious vocation= picked by God<br />priestly vocation = picked by Church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Those don't differ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The way God picks us in this life is through His Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ummm they do differ because of free will not? . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^see link. I just follow the magisterium. They do differ Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, can you improperly live your life if you have a religious vocation but get married?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21147" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T13:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basically the Church can ordain priests .... Baby crying...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, I don't see what you see in that link: all I see there is a denial that the priestly vocation is an interior call.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which I am not disputing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that once you're married, you can be sure that being married is what God wants you to do (and probably what he always wanted you to do).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21151" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I just think it's silly to think "I had a religious vocation but decided to get married".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21152" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21153" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21154" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Fr. Lahitton was denounced to the Holy Office for his book, but the Holy Office’s response endorsed his claim: here it is.<br />‘The book of the eminent man Joseph Canon Lahitton, “La Vocation Sacerdotale.” is in no way to be reprobated, but rather is is deserving of outstanding praise in the following points: (1) that no one has a right to ordination antecedently to the free choice of him by the bishop; (2) that the condition to whcih the Ordinary should look, and which is called a priestly vocation, by no means consists, at all events necessarily and as a general rule, in some interior aspiration of the subject or in impulses of the Holy Spirit to receive the priesthood; (3) but, on the contrary, nothing more is required in the candidate that he may rightly be invited by the bishop, than a right intention together with a fitness based on those gifts of nature and grace, and confirmed by that goodness of life and sufficiency of learning, that afford a well-founded hope, that he would be able rightly to fulfill the priestly duties and maintain its obligations holily. – AAS 4 (1912), 485"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21155" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I should note that, even in the religious life, whether one makes final vows is not up to the aspiring religious: in the Dominicans, for example, he must be "elected" unanimously by the members of the house.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21156" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The link points out that a priestly vocation is derivatively so (God choosing through the Church OR hierarchy choosing by God's permissive will). Religious vocation is properly so called and discerned with guidance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see any evidence for such a distinction in the link.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I don't think the decision to become a religious is a matter of one's own choice: rather, one is chosen for the religious life by being allowed to make final vows (or, perhaps, through becoming a consecrated virgin with the permission of the bishop).<br />As far as I can tell, the cases are perfectly analogous.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21159" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward your above notion on vocation amounts to saying i am called to what i am because that is what i choose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, there is no vocation to the married life, because the married life is part of the course of nature. There is a vocation to the priesthood/religious life because Church authorities must choose you to follow those lives.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is certainly a danger, Edward Langley.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, that is a tempting position, and one I held for a long time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My problem, finally, with the position is that it ends up confusing the notion of vocation as traditionally held. And makes a muddle of things that ought to be distinct.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your absurd statement was that a person could not miss their vocation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21166" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as I can tell, the classic notion of vocation is a call by God to holiness/perfection. Such a call is co-extensive with the religious life. <br />The priesthood, is not necessarily co-extensive with a life of perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21167" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^But the episcopate is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The priesthood, is not necessarily co-extensive with a life of perfection."<br />What do you mean by that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21169" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For example, a priest can be married.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21170" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the West, typically a priest is compelled to effectively live a life of perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21171" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that is not necessary to his priesthood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That just means that he isn't called to a certain perfection, though,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21174" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vocation is a call to perfection, simply.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I.e. a perfect living out of the evangelical counsels.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21176" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There also was a common practice of people becoming religious after their children could support themselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21177" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus why Aquinas can say that everyone is called to the religious life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21178" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously, (and according to your own statements) not everyone is called to the priesthood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T13:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, that makes my point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, you're saying that ordinarily everyone has a vocation?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21181" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T13:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess I'd grant that, insofar as vocation names a call to holiness, but that seems to stand to vocation in the proper sense like "animal" common to man and brute stands to "animal" proper to brutes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21182" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, not quite. All other states of life that are derivatively called vocation are ordered to the state of perfection as to their end. Marriage, and Priesthood should terminate in a perfect living out of the evangelical counsels, either in this life or the next.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21183" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T14:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think using "vocation" and "calling" indiscriminately as opposed to specific technical language is confusing. The entire above discussing seems to be just nailing down terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21184" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We can, therefore, speak of a vocation to the religious life in an analogous sense because here we mean, "Not only am I called to live the state of perfection, but God has given me the grace to enter into the state of perfection, now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21185" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T14:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel--in further support of your position, recall St. John Vianney's tears at the thought that he would not be able to perfect himself as a secular priest. I seem to recall that he even attempted to flee his parish to a monastery on a few occasions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21186" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Its all making sense now. #vocationgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21187" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T14:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T14:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think many of the Church fathers felt similarly to Vianney even about being Bishops--they wanted to be hermits, and had to be forced (by mobs!) to accept the episcopacy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21188" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that proves anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems like a call to a particular perfection in this life is co-extensive with the priesthood and similarly with the actual religious life and so both of those lives are vocations in the strict sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The fact that certain perfections, such as celibacy or poverty or whatever, don't attach to certain states doesn't make the call to either state any less a call to perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21191" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T14:14:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Merely illustrative. The main point is that Catholics tie themselves up in knots unnecessarily. People think they have to "discern their vocation" as if they were Samuel and God was going to directly tell them their life's aim in the middle of the night.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21192" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m1EFMoRFvY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T14:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#vocationgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21194" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, you are going backwards</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How so? I've conceded that the universal call to holiness is a vocation, but I've always held that it's only such per posterius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Which is backwards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21197" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is vocation per prius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see any evidence for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward is confusing me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21200" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:22:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You mean besides the arguments given and the tradition and history of the Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see an argument given that decides the question either way. And, I'm probably not familiar enough with the tradition of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21202" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T14:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T14:27:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">If only we had learned at college from the full datum of magesterium and dogma. #perescott_gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21203" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose one could just look at who is doing the calling? <br />One is called to holiness through Baptism, by God. There is no external call to holiness. <br />With marriage, my wife called me to marriage until death before God. <br />In Priesthood, the Bishop calls a man to service until death before God. <br />In the case of marriage and priesthood certainly one would expect God to be influencing and gracing the decisions. But the decisions and calls are, in the end, human.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Does this make sense Edward?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"He who hears you hears me". I deny that one can distinguish the call of the Church and the call of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21206" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially when we're dealing with things narrowly inside the sacramental order.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21207" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Really?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21208" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, when a Bishop ordains a man to the priesthood, that man is infallibly a good and worthy candidate?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least in this case: when the bishop ordains, he ordains as a minister of Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not denying that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"So, when a Bishop ordains a man to the priesthood, that man is infallibly a good and worthy candidate?"<br />Well a person being baptized isn't infallibly a "good and worthy candidate" either, especially in adult Baptisms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21212" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is the decision to ordain, rather, a matter of prudence, hopefully guided by the Holy Spirit..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21213" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah see. There's the difference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the Church leaders CAN make mistakes in whom they elect for priesthood. CF. Pius X 's many warnings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21215" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not talk about those who are called to Baptism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21216" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I spoke of the call of holiness that comes to us through Baptism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">late to comment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The call to holiness that happens in Baptism is an interior call to perfection by God directly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21219" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as the Church can call people improperly to Baptism .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, but that seems to be an extension of the use of the word "vocation".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The interior call by God is an extension?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially given the contents of Joel's link.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21223" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wouldn't God's proper call be said per prius.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21224" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as everything is said per prius of God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, the word "vocation" is imposed by us and that from which it is imposed is more particular.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-24T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-24T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am starting to think that you don't really hold the position you are representing Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Just as everything is said per prius of God?"<br />"Unde, secundum hoc, dicendum est quod, quantum ad rem significatam per nomen, per prius dicuntur de Deo quam de creaturis, quia a Deo huiusmodi perfectiones in creaturas manant. Sed quantum ad impositionem nominis, per prius a nobis imponuntur creaturis, quas prius cognoscimus. Unde et modum significandi habent qui competit creaturis, ut supra dictum est."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">According to the imposition of the name "vocation" first refers to the religious/priestly life and then, by extension, to the universal call to holiness.<br />According to the thing signified, the universal call to holiness is first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21229" class="entry odd" data-likes="10" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T14:41:00 with 10 likes</div>
<p class="text">Big news everyone!! I have been excommunicated by Pope Peregrine and now join the ranks of those in exile from the rays of his warm, benevolent light.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21230" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">blocked?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21231" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:45:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is what you get for leaving the confines of tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyways, back to reading Scotus criticizing Divine Illumination</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T14:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Danial, I need some terms clarified: are you thinking of "religious life" as synonymous with "contemplative life"? Also, do you hold that "being called to the religious life" refers to those who join holy orders, or, more narrowly, to ordained priests, or are you saying that "the call to religious life" and the "general call to holiness" are one and the same?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21234" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T14:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah Lendman, define your terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21235" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T14:49:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, you're just a jerk who wants to look like the smartest guy in the room, remember?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21236" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Sam Rocha" data-date="2014-09-24T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sam Rocha at 2014-09-24T14:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">defend, I mean, *define* your worms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">holy orders are not religious life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21238" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T14:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">defunded in Worms?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Worms in weeds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">religious is "bound (by vows) to live the evangelical counsels."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21241" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T14:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T14:54:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perfection consists essentially in charity; the Evangelical counsels are only particularly suitable means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T14:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T14:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"'verum' importat respectum ad exemplar. Igitur intellectus potest cognoscere intentionem entis, licet non cognoscat ipsam veritatem et conformitatem; et per consequens, ipsum quod verum est, potest cognosci antequam cognoscatur veritas."<br />"'Truth' implies relation to an exemplar. Therefore, the intellect can know the intention of being, although it does not know its truth and conformity; and, consequently, that which is true can be known before the truth is known."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21243" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T14:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">wyrm= 4 legged rational animal with wings that hordes gold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21244" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T14:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T14:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vocation has basically three meanings: 1) vocation to the Christian life universal and obligatory; 2) vocation to the Evangelical counsels which is universal but not obligatory (that's why the are called _counsels_; 3) vocation to a particular ecclesiastical office such as bishop of Chicago which is not universal at all, but particular to a particular person who is called.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T14:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dom Dellatte is really good on this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/77620033/Delatte-on-Vocation<br />Delatte on Vocation<br />a section from ch. LVIII of Dom Paul Delatte, O.S.B.'s Commentary on the Rule of Saint Benedict<br />SCRIBD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^the link linker strikes again </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T15:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So 1)=general call to holiness; 2)=devotion to religious life; 3)=a specific ordination?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is this slowing down yet?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21249" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks Pater, since Lendman wouldn't do it....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21250" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm gonna say yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21251" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://humility.slu.edu/blog/do-not-think-for-yourself.html</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do not think for yourself!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21253" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb Cohoe's first blog post! Go read it so we can fight about it!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21254" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oooooh! More to argue about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">HE'S WRONG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21256" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you read it yet, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21257" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T15:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What we live for!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm annoyed that my link didn't expand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21259" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:09:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's only slowed down because people are reading the stuff we linked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-24T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-24T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The terms seem clear so there's not much more to say...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21261" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're so charmingly optimistic, Pater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21262" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey, Caleb works with Elenore Stump? Give her my love. (She hated a paper I once did at a conference... or at least my answer to a question on suffering).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater-- what conference and what was the substance of your answer on suffering?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21264" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T15:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm reading the linked items because I'm procrastinating about studtying for class .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">She's a lovely person though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21266" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, she is lovely. Her husband knew right away where Una's name was from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21267" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We knew her at Notre Dame too, she even remembered me, and corrected me more in sorrow than in anger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was a conference on Creation Order organized by the Calvinists in Amsterdam.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21269" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, if she really knows who you are, then I will give her your love. That will be fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">2 dicta: think on whom to trust AND [my correction:] trust no one </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21271" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">can't read it. the typesetting is off center. OCD won't allow it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But yeah. He's right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sigh. The site is run by a grad student.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just scroll your browser over, Michael</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET's typesetting is off center.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cant read Father's link. Ok because i achieved #vocationgnosis already</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21277" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question was about the violence of evolution. This was the substance of my answer: http://thomism.wordpress.com/.../the-death-wish-in.../...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">reading...what did she hate about it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21279" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jody Haaf Garneau" data-date="2014-09-24T15:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-09-24T15:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott/Peregrine has raised his head in the TAC Alumni group. Guess what the topic of contention is? https://www.facebook.com/groups/2200569229/10152560847859230/?notif_t=group_comment_reply<br />Scott WeinbergThomas Aquinas College Alumni<br />In his Sept. 2014 lecture, Dr. Goyette seems spot on in regards to St. Thomas's view of St. Paul on Faith; however, he seems to present only a very narrow view ...<br />See More<br />Lecture Audio: “St. Thomas Aquinas on Faith Seeking Understanding” |...<br />THOMASAQUINAS.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21280" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The idea that physical evil might be in anyway necessary: "Have you ever seen an animal suffering?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21281" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">heresy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm confused. She literally wrote the book on why physical evil is necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And she doesn't address animal suffering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...I don't think...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, maybe not "in any way," but she objected to my defending Chastek's claim that materiality implies a certain necessity to coming to be and passing away. She thought my position Maimonidean. I subsequently modified my position a bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21286" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to go sleep now though, just give her my love and don't remind her of how sad my Marmonidean positions made her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#TrueVocationGnosis: http://www.scribd.com/doc/77620033/Delatte-on-Vocation<br />Delatte on Vocation<br />a section from ch. LVIII of Dom Paul Delatte, O.S.B.'s Commentary on the Rule of Saint Benedict<br />SCRIBD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-24T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-24T15:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good night thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bonne nuit<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21290" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, tNET is the center, and Edward, it runs down the center on my screen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21291" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-24T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-24T15:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPbxIT9W1AY<br />Mozart, Eine kleine Nachtmusik KV 525 Karl Bohm, Wiener Philharmoniker<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />September 24 at 3:34pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Samantha Cohoe Michael, are you really OCD or are you just trying to annoy me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Samantha, how do you know whom to trust?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang, now the alumni group is not safe....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">can't be trusted</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, that's a good question, of course. Caleb's planning a paper on that as well. But in general, the community with the most expertise on a given subject is the first place to start.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21296" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">my books at home are in Dewey decimal order. You tell me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...sounds legit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21298" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">good thing I'm not allowed in the alumni group. but Perescott is..... hmm......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21299" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and he blocked me again, although we've had no dealing since he banished tNET into the outer darkness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How does one know if one has been blocked?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">type a name into the facebook search bar. if it comes up, you're not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not. I feel a little left out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21303" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">easy to remedy..... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I posted to ignore him but people are always sucked into the sophism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trust gets tougher once the experts are wrong. . . . you know Plato's cave and all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21306" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T15:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, I kind of miss the sophism, but I can't see him at any rate</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21307" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure, the experts could be wrong, but the question is whether you are in an epistemic position to judge rightly if they are or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chances are, you're not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21309" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T15:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't see Kenz. Which is weird in the evening version of tnet when the flatlanders all sleep.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have the #gnosis though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#beyondepistemegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">gnosis > episteme</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21313" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T16:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, his diatribes are long and inviting, if it wasn't on the road to nowhere, you would be tempted to engage a discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sample of PB in the alumni group: "So, let me just complete my thoughts here, before I get kicked off. I am a TAC alum. I thank God I was unable to graduate from TAC because I am a mere poet with low IQ. But this question I am asking, and it is a very simple question, and I have asked this question before... it seems this question would have a very simple answer, but no answer has been given. <br />If TAC does not present the full datum of sacred theology in its study of sacred theology, but says it engages its students in sacred theology, this is a bit like a biologist, who only studies onions, saying that biology is the study of onions.<br />A perfectly reasonable answer to this question would be to say that TAC certainly recognizes that Dogma, Tradition and Scripture are the datum of the study of sacred theology. And we certainly encourage this study. But we present a mere introduction, for lack of time, and we encourage our students to study it all further; but in the time we have, we have decided to present the model of St. Thomas Aquinas; for he is indeed a model. He is the angelic doctor. <br />But this response, however reasonable and adequate, is not the response TAC seems to give to this question. Instead, TAC seems to give a quite different response. It presents this limited model as a representation of the whole, and presents it as the best and exemplar of sacred theology and approach to the Catholic Faith. As a result, many of its students, especially more recently, seem highly confused about what the Catholic Faith is. They view it as something that begins and ends according to the form of the TAC curriculum, with reason, leading up to the study of Saint Thomas. But this approach is not the beginning of Faith, nor is it what Faith is. On the contrary, the beginning of Faith is assent to grace and revelation. "Assent" is more than an act of the will over the intellect. It is not the will over-riding the intellect (some TAC alum have described this approach as "having doctrine crammed down one's throat"). Assent is a reasonable act of the will, an act of love, to the principles of Faith: Revelation, Dogma, Tradition.<br />But TAC does not view it like this, it seems. Instead it teaches that "faith seeking understanding" is an act of acquiring the liberal arts so we can examine the datum of theology in a syllogism. In addition to this approach, which is contrary to how the Catholic world views "faith seeking understanding" -- reasonable assent -- TAC also teaches in its Charter that the entirety of Western Academia is a tyranny of freedom.<br />No wonder TAC graduates find it difficult to obtain tenure.<br />Samuel A Schmitt, the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture is the stuff of sacred theology. So, Dogma is necessary for sacred theology. You can present Dogma in a catechetical way; or you can present Dogma in a theological way. My question is, how many Dogmas does TAC present in a theological way?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21315" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T16:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ Dangers of thinking for yourself and the need for trusting the right authority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21316" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T17:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the blog post could be used as a excellent justification for cults.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ouch!<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21318" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Thomas Hall" data-date="2014-09-24T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Thomas Hall at 2014-09-24T17:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sense that The Thread has slowed down considerably, as though even It cannot attain Perpetual Motion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael-- have you overcome your OCD enough to actually read the post?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21320" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T17:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I came home from "work" and moved my chair in front of the computer to the right....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so, short answer, yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. I can see cults misappropriating the arguments to support conformity, but since they don't have actual claims to epistemic authority, the arguments don't actually apply to them</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21323" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-24T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-24T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, I noticed, above, that you associated having a state in life with making a vow. This is wrong.<br />For public vows are taken by those married, and those who enter what were formerly called religious orders, as opposed to congregations. Sisters, brothers and secular priests do not take vows (though, since the 1917 CIC, distinguished congregation from orders purely on whether vows were taken, rather than the older, and you can never leave them principle, many congregations petitioned to take vows.)<br />By your reasoning, most priests and bishops aren't in a "state of life" since they do not take vows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21324" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T17:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">secondly, though this isn't fatal, no one chooses into what sort of family/social group they are born. I assume most children growing up trust their social group. So I suppose this seems like reducing belief to an accident of location. <br />But then again, if I trust my family, my political acquaintances, and the Fuhrer, what could possibly go wrong?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21325" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-24T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-24T17:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and it seems readily apparent that vocation implies a call to something, not already given in nature, but as it were above, or even at the expense of nature. Celibacy e.g. The religious life or the priesthood (and the vocation to the priesthood within the religious life is fundamentally different than the secular priesthood)..<br />I might very loosely call my occupation my vocation, as something superadditive to the general inclination of nature. But a vocation does imply a state of life, a call to be this sort of person, not merely to do this thing. And it would be most proper to restrict the term to the order of grace, even if, in His providence, I can speak of Him calling me to say teach.<br />Marriage would not itself be a vocation. It is wrong to too distinguish sacramental from natural marriages. Any valid marriage between two Christians is also sacramental. Whence, would we speak of two Hindus having a marital vocation? How about a Catholic who marries a Hindu, that is not a sacrament, but it is a real marriage...but if he becomes baptised, does it suddenly become a vocation?<br />So either we call marriage a vocation and use vocation for any call, even not connected with grace, or we restrict it to the sacrament, and have weird things like being married and that not being a vocation and then it becoming a vocation.<br />But there is this, in sacramental marriage, there is a further end, of raising children for the kingdom of God, and I suppose one can have a special inclination to that, and that would be in the order of grace. But it wouldn't be qua marriage, but qua sacramental marriage. So I guess I agree with Lendman other than his point about vows....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">making dinner. be back later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Solo fide.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T18:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">epistemic authority is sounding creepier and creepier. How do I get on that commitee? Any weird rituals involved?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21329" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T18:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha is Una's name from the story of the Red Cross Knight?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21330" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T18:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T18:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#faeriequeengnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">By the way - doesn't blocking usually work the other way around? The troll gets people to block him, the troll does not block.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21332" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T18:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^masochists and voyeurs. They like watching trolls. It beats bunnies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-24T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-24T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where were you being excommunicated by his magisterialness, Isak Benedict?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21334" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T18:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is too wonderful not to share, Linked below is a rewriting of Harry Potter as a Christian story so that your children do not become witches: retitled "Hogwart's School of Prayer and Miracles". https://m.fanfiction.net/s/10644439/1/<br />Hogwarts School of Prayer and Miracles ) Chapter 1, a harry potter fanfic | FanFiction<br />Author's Note: Hello, friends! My name is Grace Ann. I'm new to this whole fanfiction thing; but recently, I've encountered a problem that I believe this is the solution to. My little ones have been asking to read the Harry Potter books; and of course I'm happy for them to be reading; but I don't wa…<br />FANFICTION.NET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21335" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T19:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T19:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, I could tell because some folks were responding to invisible comments by him on Jeffrey Bond's status. Before that he was being a jerk on my profile picture haha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21336" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T19:30:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's how I figured it out too... someone responded to him on Jeffrey's status on The Laws.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21337" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T19:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak-- yes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21338" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T19:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael-- Caleb isn't advocating blind faith in whoever you happen to grow up with. Merely growing up under a certain authority doesn't actually give you reason to have trust in it. Quite the reverse can be true. A bad authority will give you lots of reasons for distrust over time. This was certainly the case for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21339" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-24T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-24T19:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">going drinkin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21340" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T19:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and John, all I mean by "epistemic authority" is a person or community who have a lot of expertise or wisdom on a certain subject.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^me [WRT Austen et al.]. That's all cool then. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21342" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jerry L Martin" data-date="2014-09-24T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jerry L Martin at 2014-09-24T21:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Terrific college!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21343" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-24T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-24T21:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder how The College feels about TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21344" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-24T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-24T21:59:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder how TNET feels about The College.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-24T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(97, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-24T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That sounded oddly aggressive. Didn't mean it that way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21346" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-24T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-24T22:07:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I can't bring myself to delete a comment, because that seems to be against the very nature of TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21347" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-24T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-24T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thinking for yourself and not learning from others is a terrible idea. Thanks for sharing Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21348" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-24T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-24T22:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">At least three tutors have shown up on tNET that I know of.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21349" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T22:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is probably the most effective advertisement in TAC history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21350" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T22:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why The College no doubt doesn't approve.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21351" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T22:39:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars in Facebook advertising.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-24T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-24T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boo hoo ha ha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-24T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-24T23:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best discussions have always been out of class anyway.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21354" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-24T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-24T23:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not if you have adblock. Mwahahahahahahahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21355" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-24T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-24T23:27:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET has given me something I was lacking. An internet time suck I don't feel is a *complete* waste of time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21356" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-24T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-24T23:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's the problem... TNET is easier to justify spending time on...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21357" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T23:48:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">well years from now being initial partipants of tNET will be CV brownie points. Future thesis topics: "whether one can retrieve the beginnings of tNET", "of the mythical troll named Pereventure"; "archeological discoveries on new possible origins of tNET"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-24T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-24T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">stories to tell the grandkids. Hey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-25T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-25T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The purpose of the Internet is collegiate discussion and national defense. All other pursuits are tertiary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21360" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-25T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-25T01:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, when I mentioned vow I was not speaking canonically. I believe even Aquinas holds that there is a vow implied for priests when they are ordained.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21361" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-25T02:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-25T02:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Alan Fimister's critique of Garrigou-Lagrange reminds me of Matthew J. Peterson's critique of Thomistotle: «Garrigou does not distinguish enough between the principles that he takes from St. Thomas, and his own conclusions that he draws from those principles, but which Fimister thinks St Thomas himself would not draw.» http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../garrigou-lagrange.../</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21362" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T02:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T02:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John you just made me split my sides laughing - "A Holistic Analysis of Dogma and Recursive Conversation in the Context of the Legendary Never Ending Thread"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T02:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T02:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET seems to have slowed down significantly in the last 10 hours. What's going on here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21364" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T02:26:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, now that we're over 21,000 comments, I am very interested in the data Edward Langley seems able to procure. I think I'll be satisfied when we have pushed Perescrotch Weinervitch out of the top ten.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T09:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All good things must come to an end I guess...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21366" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T09:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I pushed him out of the top spot, so it's up to the rest of you to "finish him" (comment stat padding comment) and I'm done drinking now so I'm up for tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21367" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T09:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T09:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">weinburg is waxing magisterial o n Bond's status. Just now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T09:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T09:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">also questioning Bond's credentials.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T09:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T09:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">beats me, I can't see him. He must of unblocked you and blocked me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21370" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T09:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T09:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">also giving Bond a lecture on Hobbes. The irony.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T09:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still wonder about "epistemic authority"<br />something about that still isn't sitting correctly. I understand in fields of expertise, like the blog post used for examples, that trust in the authority is usually easy to give. But it is a big step to go from learning how to weld to matters of moral, and intellectual, importance. I think that's where the argument breaks down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21372" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T09:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Typical arrogant tacer, promoting "humility". The gall!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T09:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm trying to talk Caleb into making a brief cameo before he heads off to a conference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T09:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T09:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about the vaccination example?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21375" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T09:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T09:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lemme get my tinfoil hat, hang on....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21376" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's my brief cameo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21377" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do think that the qualifications for moral expertise or wisdom are much higher than metalworking expertise, that's why Socrates is happy to concede that craftsmen have expertise but keeps looking and failing to find someone with true wisdom or moral expertise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In general, the more that the knowledge or expertise in question involves a comprehensive view of reality (as in metaphysics) or human ends (as in ethics) the harder it is to truly know or to find a knower.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">therefore....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">because I see two ways that this could go</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21381" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that just points to the value that finding a person or community with wisdom would have. Technical experts can only help you with the means to the ends that they assume or that you give them (e.g. building a metal Pegasus). Someone with practical wisdom could help you order your life and someone with theoretical wisdom could help you with understanding reality as a whole.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">by what epistemic authority do we find?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, partly we start with some default sources to trust like our parents and our community</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so it partly resolves to an accident of birth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the kind of strong epistemic authority I'm interested in is something we do need to come to recognize using our cognitive faculties</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21386" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But this doesn't require being experts ourself. Sometimes we can recognize expertise even without expertise ourselves.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21387" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Watching how someone responds to their opponents and presents their case can be quite informative as to what and how they know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21388" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:11:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm guessing the people active on tNET have lots of views by now on the expertise or lack thereof of the various interlocutors</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am genuinely surprised by what Caleb is arguing--or, more precisely, that he is arguing for it. It'll be interesting to see where he takes it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21390" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or watching Top Chef or other similar competitions, you can often tell who's good even if you're no chef.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21391" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was going to ask about Church authority</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21392" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there are two points I want to make: 1) often we are in fact relying on trust, even when we take ourselves to be making up our own minds</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21393" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">2) sometimes we are better off relying on authority instead of making our own minds up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21394" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">At the same time, there are examples of the appearance, but lack, of skill. Jeter appears to be an excellent shortstop, and won many awards for his defensive skill. More recent analysis suggests that he is in fact below average, despite his apparent grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21395" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am not saying that 2) is the default view we should have of experts, there are a lot of so-called experts I wouldn't trust or rely on in any strong sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">apparent grace within 5 feet of his original positioning.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21397" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, someone like Betrand Russell, who wrote very well and is smart, may appear to have real wisdom. But does he in fact or were most of his ethical/metaphysical view mistaken?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21398" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, there are definitely problems with us tracking things that seem to be related but aren't (like impressively diving for balls, or speaking very confidently)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21399" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I think we shouldn't just look at the disputed cases in evaluating trust or measuring expertise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21400" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeter really was a better defensive shortstop than all but 100 or so other players</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">aren't all cases disputed? (with regard to ethical/metaphysical)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Othello speaks impressively.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21403" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^low estimate^\</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21404" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the ethical or metaphysical cases are tricky precisely because there is real fundamental disagreement there about first principles</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21405" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I agree, but I'm having flashbacks of Mr. Berquist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">whom should I trust?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21407" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant 100 or so other shortstops in a given year</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21408" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">now I trust you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21409" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though the more qualified version of what I'm saying definitely applies to ethics or metaphysics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21410" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're better off thinking through these issues with the great philosophers of the past and present than trying to come up with your own metaphysical or ethical system</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21411" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb Cohoe, that's probably low re Jeter, since lots of defensive shortstops don't play because they can't hit. But yes, a "bad" player in the mlb is still top quality if you expand the population he is compared to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21412" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In that sense, it's a very TAC point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21413" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also a very Catholic point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21414" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that's my point, I don't know enough about shortstops to give the numbers, but if the comparison class is everyone who's played baseball or all human beings, then obviously he's a defensive expert.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21415" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">100 per year sounds closer, didn't see that before I posted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21416" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but it is definitely the more qualified version, when you're talking about great philosophers' writings. <br />Someone has to determine greatness, and the arguments still need to be thought through</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It certainly could be - one question that I had in an earlier version of the post was whether morality or religion are exceptions because each of us is directly responsible for our views and behavior in these spheres</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21418" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there's something importantly different in these domains, but I'm still not sure if or whether it rules out authority or trust in the relevant senses</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21419" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the Bertrand Russell example, I'd say that you'd benefit from reading him if he's defending and expressing his position well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, I'll remove my unliking your blog post with these relevant qualifications. (I'm sure you were worried about that)<br />But someone needs to fix the layout! Off center is awful</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21421" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does seem like there's something wrong though about just reading one philosopher and sticking with that, there's some kind of need to see the case for different first principles before evaluating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21422" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm no layout expert and I'm not sure I know one, but maybe something could be done</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, it's been fun, but I have to go to Indiana now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21424" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If one believes (as I do, but many nominal Catholics and Christians do not) that faith and the right faith at that (e.g. belief in the Trinity, not just modalism) is necessary for salvation, trust will be necessary for just about everyone, not only as regards the content of faith but also who teaches it to us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21425" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off to a conference at Purdue in honour of Richard Swinburne, a prominent philosopher of religion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21426" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Godspeed. Hoosiers can be vicious....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21427" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, yes, I think you could definitely take the framework I'm working with in that direction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T10:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">my problem Joel, is how one determines that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T10:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fides illuminat rationem. I do trust Pius X and Leo XIII. They employ both faith and reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21430" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Caleb Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Caleb Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:30:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess the other thing is that I wrote the blogpost directed towards the sort of people I encounter these days in the secular academy. If I was writing it to address the sort of errors TACers are inclined to fall into it would probably be a little different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21431" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21432" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T10:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T10:32:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now I'm going to read this blogpost. But only because it has been validated by the authority of tNET as worth the effort.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T10:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T10:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">TACers fall into errors. Caleb can take over for the Falcon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21434" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:34:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem with TAC is that everyone scatters across the country immediately after graduation. This is also just a problem with the instability (moving locations) of modern American life generally. It is particularly acute for TACers, I would think. How is one to develop Aristotelian friendships these days?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T10:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">new troll. YEAH</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21436" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb is probably the least troll-like of anyone who has ever made even a passing comment on tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21437" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He lacks all the trollish qualities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel but that was the raison d etre of the tNET smokers lounge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He's Canadian though, so not ALL trollish qualities are lacking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21440" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel has put his finger on exactly what has made tNET great</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">samantha i kid of course</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus further demonstrating that I am NOT the least trollish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21443" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:39:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmm, well if we take Scottegrine to be the form of all that is trollish, and not merely an exemplar, then his Canadianness must be part of the what-it-is-to-be of troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21444" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would argue that Scottegrine is just an exceedingly perfect example, and not the actual form</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thus Canadianness is not necessarily an inherently trollish attribute</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21446" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Canadianness is the matter, not the form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21447" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T10:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Caleb is barely a Canadian anymore anyway</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21448" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:46:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">For, it is written: "What makes a troll, Mr. Lebowski? Isn't it saying what is most provoking no matter the cost?<br />Well, sure, that and being Canadian."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21449" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">#trollgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21450" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Oleg Kostoglotov" data-date="2014-09-25T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Oleg Kostoglotov at 2014-09-25T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be a Canadian does not necessarily constitute being a troll. To be a troll to Americans is more the matter at hand, the accidental interaction between the two cultural natures exhibits the appearance of trolling though in reality it is just superiority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21451" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^troll</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21452" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Oleg Kostoglotov" data-date="2014-09-25T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Oleg Kostoglotov at 2014-09-25T10:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">No just superior, I can see that you are confused, Should I type in all caps to make it easier to understand?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21453" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T10:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Universally, trolls are from northern climes: hence trolls originate in Finland and in the new world, in Canada. Doesn't Thomas talk about this in "De Regno"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21454" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OLEG was born, named and fated to such. What star were you born under?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21455" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Oleg Kostoglotov" data-date="2014-09-25T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Oleg Kostoglotov at 2014-09-25T10:58:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Northern lights burned at my arrival and all the stars flashed their secret morse round my ancestral bridge to welcome this troll to the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Canadians are probably the least troll-like people on this earth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, we're famous (infamous?) for just wanting to get along.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21458" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrind Grendal excepted ^^^^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21459" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is he Canadian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"sorry"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21461" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If so, as official Canadian ambassador to TNET, I revoke his Canadian/TNET dual citizenship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21462" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T11:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe he renounced his tNET citizenship quite a while ago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21463" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in the most vehement of terms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21464" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How many people has that cretin blocked?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not me. Yet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha. I was only blocked by the Peregrinne incarnation of the troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21467" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's because I not once had the patience to engage him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm all alone and sad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21469" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">His attack on professor Bond is pissing me off. I'm going to have to quote some of his inananities. Bond is probably least troll like member of tNET btw.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21470" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T11:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which Bond?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21471" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-25T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-25T11:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I still have 4 "mutual friends" with the Scottegrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21472" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-25T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-25T11:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This Bond: https://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.bond.9421/posts/699410823468167<br />Jeffrey Bond<br />In the opening pages of Plato's Laws, where an Athenian Stranger is conversing about politics with a Cretan and a Spartan, we find something truly remarkable: ...<br />See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrendal on Joshua Kenz as Stomachosus (a different status): " I disagree with most of what this blogger is saying, except perhaps his confession of ignorance."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21474" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T11:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I confess. I have forsaken tNET a little to argue on that Bond thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21475" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T11:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is a very interesting argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T11:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems like pretty mild exercise of his troll-powers so far.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21477" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-25T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-25T11:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not enough people were taking his bait on the tac alumni page.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21478" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrendal instructing the ignorant Bond on all things political: " Jeffrey Bond, Do you have a degree in political science? Hobbes held to the idea that man desires peace by his internal nature, and that this desire was one of the strongest proclivities of man's nature, but that government is a device required and contracted to secure this peace. This is not too far off from Aristotle, who positied that the state wages war to secure peace, for peace is equated with justice and negotiated through the common good, which is the rational principle of governance, at all levels of human interaction: family, city, state. A close look shows these political thinkers were all men, and alike in many respects."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21479" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peremagistrate pontifex maximus coming out: "I will grant that Hobbes was prone to rhetorical hyperbole, even in his representations of the authors of antiquity; but the tragedy in America today is not religious freedom, but the inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths such as the Immaculate Conception or the necessity of revelation for moral veracity. Democracy in America is open to Catholic rule. Catholics are simply not open to American democracy."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21480" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ The danger of course is that Peregrine is starting again down that path that leads to burning heretics. He's kind of like incredible hulk that way. One minute he is singing odes about medieval beasts; the next he transforms into a raging insatiable green monster.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21481" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">IRNONIC too that the Cretan could follow the reasoning of the Athenian stranger, but Peregrind cannot follow Dr. Bond. Cretan > Pregrendal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21482" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A list of PereGrendalisms: "A close look shows these political thinkers were all men [brilliant, genius!! Peregrendal realized after close analysis they were men], and alike in many respects." Yes, they were all men upon *close* analysis, not trolls. But Hobbes = Aristotle, com'n man.<br />"the inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths such as the Immaculate Conception or the necessity of revelation for moral veracity." Still stinging from tNET two weeks ago.<br />"Democracy in America is open to Catholic rule. Catholics are simply not open to American democracy" == NOT Madison nor de Tocqueville really (though he did think America was going to become Catholic. But I have fundamental differences with the de Tocq. That would be a long argument to show where he got Catholicism wrong.) AND WHAT American Catholics is he talking about?? good grief!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T11:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T11:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a link to a previous discussion on Matthew's page (and it actually goes back to July 25 'round when Bond first entered the FB and in the pre-tNET era of FB). All great stuff.<br />https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152669232891508<br />Matthew J. Peterson<br />I love the smell of Federalist 10 in the morning...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21484" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T11:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">He blocked me, I cannot fire across his bow. This saddens me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21485" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I miss the way you handled the troll: Beitia = troll whisperer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The essence of the PereGrendal for emphasis: <br />"the inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21487" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T12:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T12:02:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's sad that we apparently miss our troll so much that we're cross-posting lesser examples of his trolling from another thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21488" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the PereGrendal is blocked by all TACers, will he cease to exist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My link to Peterson above is a great discussion. I don't think the troll appeared on it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21490" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The July 25 discussion in which Bond defeats Madison, but Matthew Peterson refuses to submit <br />https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152543773981508<br />Matthew J. Peterson<br />A sure sign of a corrupt era: lots of Senators in the mix for the Presidency. The reason only 16 have been elected President thus far?<br />By virtue of their office...<br />See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ that's the only reason I'm on tNET. A couple of Bond vs. Peterson duels</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21492" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am only the troll-whisperer because like knows like </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21493" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">troll master, troll tamer, troll trainer ^^^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, great link on vocation. However, I don't think anything you or Joshua Kenz say refutes Daniel Lendman. You are disagreeing over minutia perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21495" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:40:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Calling back the troll is the equivalent of Madison multiplying faction. It may increase unity, but at what price?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21496" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-25T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-25T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^At what price, indeed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21497" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't calling him back, I was trying to read Dr. Bond's status. If you can't see Scott, it's like listening to someone else talk on the telephone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21498" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-25T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-25T12:41:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">I consider myself a veteran a troll warfare; but never has anyone seen the likes of the Perescott troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21499" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott only makes a couple comments on it actually and Bond responds to two I believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21500" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm really not sure what Peterson is saying is very controversial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It makes more sense not reading the Peregrendal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21502" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-25T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-25T12:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fortunately TNET can outlast any troll.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT do you follow what Bond is saying?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21504" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that there are factions? That Aristotle (at least) recognizes that the main disjoint is between the rich and the poor? That Madison recognized this? I don't get it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have followed every of their debates for two months, and it seems to me that Matthew is not understanding Bond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21506" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://laughingsquid.com/secret-bay-bridge-troll-guarded.../<br />Secret 'Bay Bridge Troll' Guarded the San Francisco--Oakland Bay Bridge for 24 Years<br />After the San Francisco--Oakland Bay Bridge was...<br />LAUGHINGSQUID.COM|BY EDW LYNCH</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a million personal reasons to disagree with Peterson, for a while I made it a specific goal of mine. But in this case I just don't see it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21508" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-25T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-25T12:44:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Speaking of factions, I think I must recall all you, my brethren, back to orthodoxy. You should abandon this heterodox from "tNET" and return to true orthodoxy: TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21509" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">so am I the tNET herisiarch?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^^ I think you fail to see Bond's argument, Beitia. I recommend the July 25th discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do fail to see Bond's argument, because I see Peterson's</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^^ this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21513" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bond has been consistantly arguing the same thing. Go back. Even if Bond is wrong, his argument is COMPREHENSIBLE. So, that you don't grasp Bond is a failing. And there is another lesser thread as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21514" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't read the whole thing, but Jeffrey Bond's point makes sense to me--at least the one regarding the Laws--whereas I'm still quite unclear on what Matthew J. Peterson actually thinks here. He keeps talking about practical stuff. Get your head back in the clouds, Peterson!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That said, the more I read there discussion, the better I do see where Peterson is coming from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUT Matthew Peterson is by far the majority opinion. Bond is a minority but very important opinion. INDEED I think he is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia--what is it that Matthew J. Peterson says that you agree with?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find Peterson's argument compelling.<br />And maybe it's my American upbringing, or further back, my Basque cultural identity, but anything remotely smacking of monarchy makes me vomit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I listed some of them above, Joel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YEAH, And, Joel, above points out a major disconnect. BOND is arguing NOT about the practical but about the principles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The argument isn't directly about monarchy though, is it? It is whether faction should be an ordering principle of any state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not exactly sure what "principles" are in politics, if not practical</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ right</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21524" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T12:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahaha did Peregrine actually ask Dr. Jeffrey Bond if he has a degree in political science? Because, as it happens, he does. That's the Doctor part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">democracy per se is not illegitimate. Bond never argues that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, what is our we aim at generally vs what is it we can achieve hic et nunc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">as soon as someone critiques the American founders, there's usually a "God save the King" hiding somewhere near by</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. Isak. that cracked me up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21530" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was Plato a monarchist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21531" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T12:53:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is faction the ordering principle of our state? My point is that no one thought so at the time. My argument isn't very practical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I will say that my considerations of the last few years have led me to become a monarchist. In principle, there is nothing wrong with monarchy; I do think that democracy has a tougher road from day one. . . .. . . and this is from PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS. So many practical problems with democracy. But we just got the super heavy blinders on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there a state where faction, and controlling faction isn't an ordering principle?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21534" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T12:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no state without faction, because all faction means is a group of people who want to violate others rights or trounce all over the common good en route to what they want.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">like monarchs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question is what you do about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#factiongnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">classical anarchism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21539" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-25T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-25T12:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe the state of grace is without faction. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276732/<br />State of Grace (TV Series 2001–2002)<br />Created by Brenda Lilly, Hollis Rich. With Mae Whitman,...<br />Save<br />IMDB.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21540" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T12:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All Madison does is argue that by creating a bit stronger, larger government over the whole of the states you will incorporate more factions and this will make a majority FACTION less likely because it will be harder form and implement its sinister designs. THE WHOLE POINT IS TO STOP MAJORITY FACTION, or to stop the many who have ultimate power from misusing it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I just learned that Tocqueville never refers to Fed. 10, despite refering to scores of other issues of the Federalist. What?!? Is this true?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21542" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="James Patterson" data-date="2014-09-25T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">James Patterson at 2014-09-25T12:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. how no single religious sect could lay claim to an entire nation, hence all opting to defend against any one of them claiming to be the established church. It turns then into unintentional defenders of liberty (and eventually into intentional ones).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21543" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FACTION ISN'T GOOD. BY DEFINITION IT IS BAD. But political life in free-ish countries consists in large part in arguing about who is and isn't a faction. <br />Madison has faith that we have enough virtue in a large, extended government plus we will have more virtuous rulers in a large, extended government, PLUS all the little factions will help kill and reveal a developing majority faction for what it is and thereby kill it or prevent it from acting on its evil desires.<br />For crying out loud. What I am fighting against is a 1950s anger at where things ended up read back into the founding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, forgive my ignorance of secondary sources, but what exactly is Beard's interpretation of Fed. 10? All I really know is that Beard thought the founders were motivated by economics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21545" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T13:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond come back to tNET and argue with Matthew J. Peterson within its all-encompassing glow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T13:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plus, Jeffrey Bond will be safe here from Peregrottish impertinences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21547" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A last salvo and then I have go back to teaching this stuff for a living.<br />Tocqueville doesn't mention it explicitly, but he does talk about the principle a bit, I think.<br />Federalist 9 and 10 are simply arguments defending the Constitution as a LARGE republic directly against the anti-Federalist Brutus in his first Brutus #1 arguing that a SMALL REPUBLIC is better because in a large republic the public good is sacrificed to a 1000 views and in large republic you have to deal with more ambitious men of large fortunes - among other things.<br />First, Hamilton shoots Brutus down re his use of Montesquieu in Federalist 9. Hamilton points out that what Montesquieu (and we might add, Aristotle) are talking about is already smaller than the states. So should we split up into a million polises [sic]? Surely creating leagues adn federations of smaller republics into larger bodies isn't some kind of unknown, and even Montesquieu talks about such a thing as potentially advantageous. (As I have pointed out to you, Madison in fact studied ancient examples of larger popular governments made up of smaller popular ones for months leading into the convention.)<br />Anyhow, then Madison (who gets excited in a letter to Hamilton about Brutus's arguments against them - finally a serious Anti-federalist worth opposing!) jumps in with Fed 10 - which is based on some thoughts he's been working out since before the Constitutional convention - trying to figure out all the ways we can counter the central flaw of the rule of the many - majority tyranny. In other words, not only does Madison think that the large republic can be defended, but he's been thinking about it as a solution to the problem of increasingly radical and unstable democracies in the states.<br />Fed 10 is mentioned in Jefferson's second inaugural, I think, but it doesn't become a big deal until a vaguely modern materialist/marxist Beard in the early part of the 20th century tries to give a since disproven economic take on the founding in which the Constitution was all about the rich ruling over the poor - Beard seizes on fed 10 as proof of this amoral calculation/capitalist machine. <br />This leads to some great booksy types (mostly Straussians) in the 1950s reading fed 10 a bit more broadly as MODERNISM simply. They read Fed 10 and Fed 51 and it is all very simple - they read our modern thought and problems directly into those two papers ripped out of contexts as the evil seeds of our present discontent. This is the school from which Bond ingested his arguments.<br />But Joel HF, if you want to understand Fed 10 you need to read these documents I link to (the precursors to it) and consider it in context of Madison's developing thought on the matter:<br />https://www.facebook.com/notes/matthew-j-peterson/jim-madison-and-the-desideratum-of-human-governance/10150222335550931<br />Matthew J. Peterson<br />Jim Madison and the Desideratum of Human Governance<br />Since we've been talking about sovereignty here:<br />Jim Madison, Ratification, and the "Right of Secession" I<br />https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150204601425931<br />and here:<br />...<br />Continue Reading</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I look forward to reading that. Thanks Peterson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21549" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the important part is just the snippets from those three precursors to Fed 10 by madison - not my gloss</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21550" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T13:24:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET is proof that factions are essential</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21551" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:25:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">For without Scott, tNET would not be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21552" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:25:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">OH HAPPY FAULT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21553" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">OH HAPPY FACTION?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21554" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-25T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-25T13:29:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The whole point is to stop majority faction." But the means to stopping it is a sort of balance of faction system, analogous to the balance of power system that perfidious Albion and her progeny have been promoting since time immemorial. The point of Jeffrey Bond's quote from the Laws is that the way to overcome strife is not through balance of power, but through virtue—i.e. through subordinating everything to one principle. (Don't forget to use a bucket Michael Beitia).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21555" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did read that Matthew J. Peterson. And saw the same thing that Jeffrey did, but couldn't quote at the time, being away from the internet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To me, Pater Edmund, this sounds like saying something like this:<br />Virtue is what should stop vice. So as parish priest, I can't tell anyone at the village bar to tell me or his wife or otherwise prevent the village alcoholic from entering or in any way try to dissuade him to leave. Even avoiding the occasion of sin is no way to try to prevent sin, for it does not rely on virtue.<br />Also, any sort of accountability software on the internet that would reveal to multiple people what any one person is looking at is off limits. For it doesn't rely on virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^How does that follow?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The entire Constitution is trying to wrest power over commerce away from the states and give it to more virtuous leaders in a less democratic system. Madison depends upon more virtuous and better leaders and representatives who will be protected from popular whims and will by the structure of the Constitution, and who will be elected in such a way and live and breathe in a structure that will look after the good of the whole - the Union - of all the states combined rather than the partial interests of one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, and Jeffrey's argument on July 25, is that in attempting to prevent majority faction, Madison created a super-majority faction that necessarily becomes intolerant of those who adhere to and publicly proclaim the truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, he mentions in a few places that the fact that the republic will be LARGER means that it will have more factions within it, and this will make it harder for any one faction to become a majority faction, since it will be opposed and outed to the majority of people by other factions and other non-factions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madison isn't CREATING any faction. He's simply creating a larger government over more territory and population, albeit with more limited ends.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21562" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-25T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-25T13:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do agree that the balancing out thing can sometimes have a good effect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MADISON DOES CREATE A NEW SUPERMAJORITY FACTION. QED below: <br />https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152543773981508<br />Matthew J. Peterson<br />A sure sign of a corrupt era: lots of Senators in the mix for the Presidency. The reason only 16 have been elected President thus far?<br />By virtue of their office...<br />See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ by Jeffrey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21565" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Subordinating everything to one principle in practice means that no one has any recourse if that principle turns out to be corrupt</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Fed 10 on its own isn't quite correct. Madison wanted to give similar interests, opinions, and passions via education and of course all kinds of freedoms were restricted then if people thought they were too factional. Government can and does today and especially then sought to go after the causes of faction within us.<br />The point in 10 is simply that government cannot ultimately eradicate faction within us - it can't make us perfect - it must deal with us as we are. Like any sort of moral advice. So one of the auxiliary precautions and helps Madison's sees to help keep majority rule on the right path is that in a larger republic it will be harder for a majority faction to form and if it does form (which is inevitable, according to him and myself) it will have a harder time acting on its evil desire.<br />AS OPPOSED TO A SMALL REPUBLIC/PURE DEMOCRACY, in which majority faction will run amuck and no one can stop it very easily.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The confusion lies in our desire to conflate real problems and philosophies we see among us today a bit too quickly with snippets of texts we find from the past.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21568" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater, I threw up in my mouth a little bit...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21569" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson--you are the one who was challenging FB to provide a law (that wasn't of the Pol Pot variety) that either educated or lead people to virtue, aren't you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21570" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-25T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-25T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha that depends on what the principle is, and how the subordination is arranged.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21571" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T13:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So what principle would you propose?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21572" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-25T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-25T13:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The bell rings so I'll just leave the Thread with a nice link: http://the-josias.blogspot.co.at/.../the-american... #LinkGnosis<br />The Josias: The American Founders and the Aristotelian Tradition – Part 6:...<br />THE-JOSIAS.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21573" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:47:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF: yes - I have this crazy tic in which I like to hear examples to help understand airy fairy talk, especially when it comes in the form of a critique of things that actually exist. I love how this question is often mocked - well, this PRACTICAL stuff has no bearing on my principles...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21574" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T13:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wasn't mocking (here at least!). But you were giving examples of Law leading to the common good (which I think were right), and I was wondering if I was crazy or if you had questioned that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21575" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"snippets". But Jeffrey puts together a coherent argument that has yet to be refuted IMO.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21576" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T13:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T13:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, you just have to trust tNET to provide a principle, as tNET is expert in all things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And being Cato, I am the moral authority of tNET which is .......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the epistemic authority of all things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">call me pragmatic (no, don't really) but shouldn't a lot of "oughts" be purged from a rational discourse on politics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21580" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, no, Joel HF: I was simply asking for examples. I think that this airy fairy talk in our circles fails to understand that even for Aristotle, law doesn't lead to virtue in a direct way. In fact, the law, if we are to believe the gospels, CONDEMNS but FAILS to ultimately make us virtuous. <br />But even for Aristotle, for instance, the law ought to indirectly try to make the people themselves friends. That is, the bond of unity and virtue will come from people doing things, not from laws. The laws do not directly CAUSE virtue. They work indirectly.<br />Of course, there is probably no greater example of an attempt to create explicitly Christian popular government than the puritans in early America. As Tocqueville points out, they had what almost anyone would describe as draconian laws yet they were democracies, through and through.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21581" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The confusion lies in our desire to conflate real problems and philosophies we see among us today a bit too quickly with snippets of texts we find from the past." -------- an unfair rendering of Jeffrey's argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21582" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T13:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">isn't a lot of critique of the American founding utopian in nature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ not at all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am in no way Utopian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T13:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you want heaven on Earth, admit it John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ no. heaven in heaven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heaven = realplace (eutopos) not "noplace" (outopos)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21588" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T13:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that laws can and should be ordered to the common good, but I think people get sloppy about how this can and ought to happen as well as a bit high and mighty about what the common good consists in for a political body.<br />I also think that Bond seizes on texts in which Madison does flirt with the kind of thing Bond calls out on occasion, but that in overall context (or even in those texts themselves) it simply isn't true to say that Madison or the rest created a regime based on faction or didn't think there was an objective good. <br />That doesn't mean what they created was perfect, or obviate other objections.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ a fairer take on Bond</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21590" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Bond also nowhere has argified for anything practical. He is trying to point out what he sees as the logical effect of a principle Madison "seems" to espouse. (And I see the same things that Bond sees.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21591" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a dystopian, "vale of tears" kinda guy. (Hard to argue against that, viz. that I'm a cynic.) Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T14:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">best of all possible worlds for me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21593" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T14:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">[As to Beitia, he's Basque, anti-authoritarian, anti-monarchial, anti-hylemorphe, troll-trolling anti-troller. So, go figure.] </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21594" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T14:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel like I have been defined and circumscribed. I have no more to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21595" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T14:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But to underline Joel's point, the Bond - Peterson debate has been the best thing on FB. tNET at times reaches that level of #gnosis, but is inconsistent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21596" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T14:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T14:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"ineffabIe". That's how I feIt as a poor maIe in a high-end IiberaI arts schooI with 60/40 maIe to femaIe ratio. IneffabIe. Maybe I shouId Iook up that word........</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21597" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Peter Nuar" data-date="2014-09-25T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Peter Nuar at 2014-09-25T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Metarequest: Given the near impossibility of loading back to the original conversation for those who haven't followed from the beginning, will the comments be published in book form or .pdf (as if there needs be a difference)? Also, you may or may not be aware, the original link is.... dead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21598" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T15:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thread calls: come join us Richard Arndt and James McPherson </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21599" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(227, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T17:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET is dying just when I need it most. Stay with me tNET! Don't leave me all alone!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has played dead before. It always returns.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21601" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-25T18:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is it possible for that which cannot end to die?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21602" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T18:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't worry Samantha, TNET merely rests.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21603" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-25T18:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This would be more enjoyable with beer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Peter Nuar" data-date="2014-09-25T18:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Peter Nuar at 2014-09-25T18:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Max: T'is personification, as in, "beer beckons us".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21605" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T18:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T18:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">you can always pass the time by scrolling up and reading the 20,000 pages that pater links. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21606" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T18:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh ye of little faith! This is the cthulhu thread! It is the Facebook worm which dieth not!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21607" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-25T18:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peregrinch tried to kill it, Matthew J. Peterson tried to kill it, but it liveth on!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21608" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've already read all 20,000 of the links Pater Edmund posted.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T18:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">to give up tNET or not.... or perhaps, will tNET let me go... four (waking) hours is a personal best, I think......<br />fortunately, I'll be at Mass this evening.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21610" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha, I'm lying obviously</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21611" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-25T18:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you think the browser would even support it if you tried to load the whole thread?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, if you're out I'm out.I already feel like the last one at the party, long after the host has gone to bed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21613" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think when tNET is over, though, I might as well quit facebook</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21614" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T18:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia will never leave as long as i have breath. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21615" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T18:29:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our host ditched us long ago. Trolling him on other threads just seems sad. But if I don't cynically mock his heartwarming enthusiasm for teaching, the founders, and America, who will?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . and bandwidth. He got me into this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21617" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T18:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">quit tNET. Quit sooner life. . . . . but if it does die, i hope Edward can extract a searchable copy. There is some treasure amidst the trolls and fiery dragons. And great troll fighting too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21618" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T18:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha the party will gain a second, and third, and fourth wind. TNET is by definition never ending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hypothetical question, tNET-- if you were donating a bunch of money to TAC, would you donate it with specification as to how the money should be spent, or not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is this donating of which you speak?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21621" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Benedict-- Imagine somebody was giving you a whole lot of money specifically for the purpose of giving it to a non-profit institution. Unfortunately, you cannot keep any of this money for yourself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it was a lot yes, I'd donate it to the *forgets the name* the fund that just earns interest that most colleges use to give scholarships</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and the name of the *forgets the name* fund is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21624" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T18:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T18:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The endowment fund... I think..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21625" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T18:50:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"empty endowment fund" is that the name? Just guessing and trying to help out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21626" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T18:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">May I suggest the human fund? "Money for people"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T18:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have always been a proponent of the teachers' catholic "tea party" fund.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21628" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T18:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T18:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They have an endowment fund??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21629" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel-- I'll split it with you 60-40 if you can come up a valid tax id.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21630" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And probably a couple off-shore banking accounts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T19:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes they do, but they need to raise so much each year (and that increased so much with the economy) that nothing ever makes it into there unless specified.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T19:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Also because paying for each year is obviously a priority)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21633" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-25T19:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They really ought to put 2-3% of total donations into the fund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21634" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Max Summe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Max Summe at 2014-09-25T19:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Money always appears when you really need it - but if you don't earmark funds they disappear....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, helpful. Thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21636" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:06:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Assuming Joel doesn't follow through on our embezzlement scheme, of course</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21637" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T19:16:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, thank you for calling me back to the Eternal Return. It's nice to be missed. But don't think for a minute that I ever left the Great Thread. It has never been far from my heart. Were it not for the fact that I have to return to the shadows of the cave each morning to make a living, I would dwell forever in the intelligible realm illuminated by the Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21638" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T19:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe you mean our "totally legit and legal charity" scheme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21639" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, right, right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21640" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T19:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And in my absence, I have found my argument against Madison quite ably defended by John Ruplinger and Pater Edmund, as well as others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21641" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T19:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I have often fantasized about having such a large sum of money that I could stipulate that they had to change their ill-conceived rolling admissions policy. (And probably a few other things, too.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21642" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John mostly just asserted how boss you are, and how much you owned Madison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T19:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"tea" party fund aka teachers good "spirits" fund. [Sadly rumors caused a diocese wide ban on spirits in San Antonio Catholic schools.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21644" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, you raise an intriguing point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21645" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T19:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow. I haven't been called "boss" since I was in grade school!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did link to said boss arguments though, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it's quite enough to start attaching strings though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21648" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rolling admission is so bad</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21649" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, the youth say "boss" again. I know because I have a sister who is a youth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">embezlment schemes, the American dream, the city of commerce enters the thread again. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21651" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Totally legal and legit charity schemes, John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21652" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you against legal and legit charity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T19:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T19:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the cave enters the thread of enlightenment and gnosis. The battle of tenebrae et lux. We know who wins though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did I say that your beneficence with Joel was unAmerican?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, but I assume you are against the american dream</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21656" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T19:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, seeing as I essentially agreed with Lendman that marriage is not called a vocation properly, I can see why you think I didn't refute him.<br />I only called him out on vow. Speaking of which, Daniel Lendman, how would you define a vow then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21657" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T19:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T19:49:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, if I had money to donate, yes I would. Namely I would require it be applied to pre-existing college debt, because the savings in interest would be a multiplier.<br />ETA: proper salutation for a lady.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21658" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Joshua Kenz that would depend on whether the interest accruing on the debt is greater than the interest that would be accrued in the endowment fund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T19:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T19:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And what happened to the Mrs? I found it charmingly pedantic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21660" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T19:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would donate with strict stipulations.<br />I would establish a missionary/charity work program in the first two summers. Mandatory. You'd have choices and earn work study money by doing menial and visceral charity work. My parents thought of this years ago, and many have suggested it over time.<br />The last summer and the summer after graduation I would fund pre-professional programs of all kinds, also mandatory, that put students in top notch orgs and biznesses or educational institutes, etc. and let them be learning the landscape and what they do or don't want to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21661" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T19:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T19:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would also use money and prudence to pressure them to enact more stringent admissions policies and formalized, transparent, and professional procedures when it comes to hiring and firing decisions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21662" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I would specify at least a large portion of it (or all of it, depending on the size of the sum). I'd talk to recent graduates and current students about what they think needs money (taken with a grain of salt for the inevitable cynicism, of course). Of course, students don't know all the ins and outs of how the money is spent, but they see a side of the school that others don't, and often there are many things pertinent to everyday student life which go unfunded in favour of bigger, more PR-friendly projects. I don't necessarily mean that as a criticism of the administration, but it was an unfortunate fact of life while I was there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21663" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T19:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T19:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And probably, as a friend suggested, a program to bring in a certain percentage of non-traditional tutors who have not been just been in academia their whole lives, as well as higher and clearer standards and procedure re hiring tutors in general.<br />This would include significantly upping tutor salaries, by the way.<br />I would also make pedagogical practice and instruction a more formal part of tutor development.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21664" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T19:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T19:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^strings are always attached. Strings are unattached to penury. cf Xenophon's Oikonomia for how Socrates escaped.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T19:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But frankly, I would probably wait and see how things develop in the next decade before giving them anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21666" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T19:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T19:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah don't get nothing for nothing, as my grandfather used to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21667" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T20:09:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also I would commission a statue of James Madison and demand its placement in the chapel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21668" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T20:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ hey, Bond [just saying. . . \ American religion QED \ ]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, what's wrong with the rolling admissions policy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21670" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:08:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But also, I think one of the wisest attitudes the College has is to turn down donations of whatever size that call for changes they don't think are of advantage to its mission. (One could make mistakes in the particular judgements of course, but the principle illustrates what is best about this place, and hopefully, what will help it maintain its identity and serve students for decades to come.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21671" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">May I suggest an addition to Matthew's commissioned statue of James Madison? His right foot should be stomping on my head, and his left on the head of Ruplinger, with a serene, otherworldly smile on his saintly countenance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Ha! Oh. dear/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure you could get that statue of Madison in there. They found a place for all those gross dead animals, didn't they?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21674" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Katherine, rolling admission adversely affects the quality of the incoming class, which adversely affects everyone's experience, especially given the communal nature of the education</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T20:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine Gardner: I think so too, in principle. Most institutions of Higher Ed are cheaper dates than politicians. I love TAC for the same reason - they tell presidents NOT to speak there. Heh.<br />And yet. I'm not so sure about the mission as understood and implemented. Not sure it can last as it has operated in the past.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21676" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T20:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T20:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've been unblocked by Pope Periwinkle Scrotch. Why, I have no idea. This is like being in a bad relationship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21677" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmmm. How does it adversely affect the quality of the class?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21678" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You mean something like, people get accepted who are worse fits just because they apply earlier in the year than people who are better fits?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stupid people make for stupid discussions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21680" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T20:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I know of quite a few stories of promising, intelligent high school seniors who only found out about TAC during the normal college admissions "season"--i.e., Dec./Jan. By that time, the college's incoming class is already full (of people who are related to an alumnus and were thus "in the know"). Anecdata, maybe, but it bothers me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21681" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I find that not to be the case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21682" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, I guess I'm being flexible with the meaning of 'stupid people'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21683" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the smarties in the room need the slow people to get anywhere real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21684" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">They don't admit not understanding things to themselves as readily sometimes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21685" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can sympathize with that Catherine, though I don't know that it's a bad policy simply because some people don't get in. They don't let just anyone in, afterall... only people they think can benefit from and contribute to the discussions somehow. And why shouldn't they come, even if someone smarter also wants to come? As I said, smarter doesn't always add what's most needed to a the mix.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though maybe I am oversimplifying your position by identifying the smart people as the ones hurt by rolling admissions?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21687" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I have caught up on the discussion of Madison that I missed. James Patterson (whom I am unable to tag) said about Federalist 10 that "no single religious sect could lay claim to an entire nation, hence all opting to defend against any one of them claiming to be the established church. It turns then into unintentional defenders of liberty (and eventually into intentional ones)." That, I think is a correct read of Madison. But that is also the problem. Madison's plan makes sure that the one true Church could never be established. This effectively removes the one true God from the public realm. And that, as Leo XIII insists, is an affront to God. For while it is true that Catholicism is permitted to enter the public realm and makes its case, nevertheless American Catholics who imbibe the Madisonian principle of religious indifference will soon be unwilling and ultimately be unable to make the argument for Catholicism (as we see today). The supposed goal, then, that "no single religious sect could lay claim to an entire nation," is actually not the outcome of Madison's plan. What Madison actually achieves is a super majority faction where one single religious sect--call it Americanism--does come to dominate American political life. And it is a tyrannical faction of the worst kind because it destroys not property but souls that uphold the dogma of dogmatic tolerance over the dogmas of the one true Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21688" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going to drink all the rest of the pappy's while Caleb is gone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21689" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That will show him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T20:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil I can understand why they had the policy originally, when nobody knew about the college and the classes had about twelve people in them. But now that they have more interested people than spaces in the class, what would be so bad about assembling all the applications and considering the group as a whole?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21691" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T20:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I see what you're saying. I wonder if the result wouldn't kind of naturally be picking all the brightest spots, though if we went that route. And I don't know the whole rationale behind the policy, either. I am only speaking of my experience teaching class here, which is limited. Gotta run... will check in later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey-- what does "make the case for Catholicism" mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21693" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(195, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine-- I was mostly advocating for smarter students, so no, you didn't misunderstand me. : ) Mostly, though, we need more good, vocal students. I wasn't the perfect TAC student by any means, but there were lots of kids who *never* said a word in class. If you have enough of those kinds of students, section is torture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21694" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, does Vatican ii change things at all, in your view?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21695" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T20:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil McArthur gave a talk at one of the alumni dinners a few years back where he seemed to be saying that he thought the College should be employing a different approach to admissions, given the limited number of spaces, the importance of the College's mission to teach a particular school of thought, and the unfortunate tendency of nice Catholic youth to stumble in looking for nothing more than a nice Catholic environment. Jonathan Monnereau, do you still have the text of that talk?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21696" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T20:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the contrary, Katherine Gardner, "iron sharpens iron," as the good book says.<br />A more competitive edge to the place would have helped me, at any rate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21697" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T20:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Katherine Gardner: They don't all have to be geniuses. I just think that considering the applicant pool as a whole would be beneficial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21698" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Caleb Cohoe, who has abandoned me but who is one of the all time awesomest TAC graduates, almost didn't come because of the rolling admission policy, for the reason Catherine Joliat Feil mentioned</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21699" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson. You wrote: "This leads to some great booksy types (mostly Straussians) in the 1950s reading fed 10 a bit more broadly as MODERNISM simply. They read Fed 10 and Fed 51 and it is all very simple - they read our modern thought and problems directly into those two papers ripped out of contexts as the evil seeds of our present discontent. This is the school from which Bond ingested his arguments." Now, I don't mind being called "space man" (see The Ninth Configuration), or having my arguments referred to as "airy fairy" (which borders on hate speech in our enlightened times), but to reduce me to 1950s Straussian anger is going too far. As Groucho Marx and Bugs Bunny once famously said, "Of course you know this means war!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T20:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T20:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: you are in Madison's place in 1786. What do you propose?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, the answer for smart students going too fast is tutors like Berquist. Or, if manducatios aren't your thing, Kolbeck. Relying on idiots seems backwards to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21702" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, though, Joel HF and Catherine Joliat Feil and I are a bunch of snobs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21703" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T20:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I think is ironic and yet even touching about the school's policy is how democratic it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21704" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T20:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, I would love to read/hear that talk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I think the official purpose of the policy is egalitarian in nature</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21706" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, I'm not sure you what you are referring to when you say "make the case for Catholicism."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21707" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was quoting you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21708" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are, for sure! But I think Catherine is making a slightly less snobby point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You said Madison leads to a world where Catholics don't make the case for Catholicism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what context?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T20:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, why would it matter at all what anyone would have done in Madison's place? Isn't the whole debate an investigation, a quest to understand what Madison actually DID propose?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because there isn't room for the Catholic Church to be the one official church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or something. that's how I understood you, anyway</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21714" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, we're making excellent, snobby points. It's not mutually exclusive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21715" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:41:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, OK. American Catholics, for the most part, are Americans first and Catholics second. It is called the heresy of Americanism. They place the First Amendment above the dogmas of the Faith. Hence, they say things like "Catholicism is true for me, but not necessarily true for you," thereby demonstrating that they have subordinated their Catholicism to the higher truths of the American founding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21716" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, yes Vatican II attempts to complete the Madisonian revolution by making the Church fully American.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21717" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">That isn't because they're Americans first, it's because they're basically secular. THey have imbibed the relativism of the modern age. That's the Church's fault for not teaching better, not Madison's fault for establishing freedom of religion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21718" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does VII mandate a certain church state separation, Jeffrey Bond?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Both are true, Samantha. But Catholic teaching has failed because Madison has succeeded. The public realm is too powerful and overwhelms a merely private Catholicism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21720" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you saying that the Catholic Church can only succeed with the support of the state??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21721" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Surely you don't want to concede that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Argh! Was on my phone and missed your answer, Jeffrey Bond. Have you read Thomas Pink's articles on religious liberty and VII? I think they are quite interesting, myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">America, as the engine of the Enlightenment, is remaking the world in its own image. The Church and, ironically, Islam, are all that stand in its way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21724" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-25T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-25T20:46:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, section without a few quiet people would have been a disaster. Not everyone can talk all the time. Also, there's no way of telling how someone will contribute in section just by seeing their application. They could have straight As and not say a word, or they could have straight Bs and be very helpful contributors.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Locke gets the "credit" for the victory of Enlightenment principles. Madison is merely a popularizer of Locke's principles, especially the doctrine of toleration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas Pink on religious liberty and VII: http://www.firstthings.com/.../08/conscience-and-coercion<br />Vatican II’s teaching on religious freedom changed policy, not doctrine<br />In the nineteenth century, in encyclicals from Gregory...<br />FIRSTTHINGS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21727" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">More Pink: http://www.academia.edu/.../What_is_the_Catholic_doctrine...<br />What is the Catholic doctrine of religious liberty?<br />The paper examines Catholic doctrine and theology on...<br />ACADEMIA.EDU|BY THOMAS PINK</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21728" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, the Church can and will succeed with or without the state. But the state by nature is subordinate and can do great damage to souls when it elevates itself above the true Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21729" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, Joel. I will check it out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T20:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read Pink (per pater Edmund's pm links to me). They have several flaws. Be happy to share them but not from phone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21731" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T20:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T20:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sometimes that advantage of mission is a little more real politick than they let on...they have made changes, in the past, they disagreed with in principle in order to secure approval.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21732" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interestingly, I think there are some Calvanists who read Locke as an illiberal--i.e. arguing against toleration of Papist and Muslims b/c they have a temporal head of religion which trumps their civic loyalty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21733" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, this is a big vague for me. Do you not approve of religious liberty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz, spill. What changes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21735" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger-I'd love to hear your thoughts re Pink. Feel free to pm me, or post it or whatever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21736" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Religious liberty in the Lockean/American sense is not liberty. I agree with Leo XIII's magisterial account in Libertas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Advantage of mission"? Joshua Kenz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the American sense meaning that we do not establish an official state church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How to reconcile Leo with Vatican II? Michael Davies asked that question long ago, but he has never received an answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, read Thomas Pink, for at least an attempted reconciliation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He misdefines liberty (contra Libertas) and is ambiguous in his use of the word "religion". While critical of DH's silence on Church's teaching, Pink does the same. << brief summary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21742" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T20:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang! Stupid FB omitted 40 minutes of comments.<br />Responding to Ms. Gardner above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21744" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Christianity began and flourished without the help of the state. Jesus was pretty clear in fact that the realms were different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21745" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We in principle (as in the First Amendment) exclude even the possibility of an established Church, even if the population were 100% Catholic. This, as Leo writes, is an affront to God. Not only individuals, but also and especially the state must acknowledge His authority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Totally different kingdoms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21747" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The realms are different, but complementary. Read St. Thomas' On Kingship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21748" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T20:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak Benedict: no, what's not relevant is complaining about not taking an option that never existed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've read On Kingship, thanks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21750" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T20:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">An Anglican against state-established churches? How curious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21751" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh hush. My kind of Anglicans are just evangelicals who like liturgy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21752" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The option may not have existed, Matthew, but that was because of the success of Locke. Madison does not have a problem with that success.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21753" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It wasn't an option because of the plurality of religious communities already in existence on the ground in the Colonies</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21754" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T20:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">All of whom quite rightly wanted protection against persecution</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21755" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That may be, but it is another matter altogether to begin to embrace the principle of religious indifferentism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Samantha, in many ways the early church's relationship to the State may be the best for holiness, but that's only because martyrdom is a direct route to heaven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you've read On Kingship, why are you saying "totally different kingdoms" as if that rebuts the claim that the state must acknowledge God's authority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because I was citing Jesus, who seems to say something quite different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21759" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T21:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Matthew J. Peterson re: the discussion of egalitarian admissions above: the policy may have been egalitarian to begin with, when no one had ever heard of this fringe ranch with a bunch of trailers where they talked about Ancient Greeks. It's not egalitarian anymore. It favors people who have been dreaming about going to TAC since before they could read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21760" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:03:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, it favors the offspring of alums</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21761" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The conversion of Constantine was not a mistake. The Church has always sought the conversion of the state. Jesus, after all, said to go forth and teach all NATIONS.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which may, at this point, be the true purpose</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21763" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">#admissionsgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21764" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T21:05:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe Well to give a relatively minor, and well known, example. Dr. MacArthur separated the altar from the tabernacle and made it versus populuum, much to the consternation of Fr. McGovern who would not speak to him for days afterwards. Much more hurtful, the college not only had a falling out with one of its founders, at the behest of the non-founder Fr. McGovern. They completely erased him as much as possible from memory. You cannot find his name anywhere on the list of chaplains, despite being their first. And the dispute over which he left was his desire to appeal to the Cardinal after Fr. McGovern came in and said he wasn't allowed to celebrate the EF. The school didn't want any association that might be negative, such as politely asking the Church authority for clarification of the law.<br />And we were forbidden to organize anything in memorial when he died... Fr. Charles, being a Nobertine, though posted flyers advertising his requiem at their abbey (and I even got suspected of being behind that by the "we must never be associated with conservative liturgy movement by Mahony...yeah Dean, I am pretty sure too late for that.) Or the whole intimidate a student for activity not concerning the school, because the Cardinal might think we are conservative and we cannot have that (we have to walk on egg shells I was told).<br />How about the attitude to student workers during VIP workers? Everything was all for appearances and pampering donors. Only time I recall the school violating labor laws knowingly...Fr. Buckley did end the liturgical segregation, where we had to go to Mass elsewhere because they were rich.<br />Now I am making this all sound much worse than it was, in some ways. But the point is the college did worry about things like connections and perceptions and money to keep afloat to the point of not always being the most principled body.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where did Jesus say that the state does not have to acknowledge God's authority? Are you thinking of the rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's bit?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21766" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, that, and I also think it is relevant that Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. It doesn't depend on the authorities of this world to achieve its aims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your father's argument treads dangerously close to saying the reverse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, but this world is part of His kingdom, and that includes the public realm, not just the private.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(right, father and son, right? Am I remembering that correctly?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus doesn't need us or the state. But given our political nature, His love for us involves the conversion of nations, not just individuals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21771" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">assuming that love of God flourishes best when governments enforce a way of worshipping him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would have to ask a Biblical scholar, but I very much suspect you are not using "nations" correctly, there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not a matter of enforcing worship. Between indifference and force there is education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha - yes, father and son. Or so I am told. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21775" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Telemachus had the same worry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21776" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Samantha that should not distract you from the sheer quality and dazzling brilliance of our arguments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21777" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When, in history, has the state not used some kind of force to establish religion when the state had an official church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21778" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geniunely curious about that one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anything is distracting me, it's the whiskey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whiskey whiskey, Nancy whiskey</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21781" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get the feeling that "crusty-trads" (as Peterson call them (us?)) are over-represented here. Or maybe TAC is more traddy than I thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm drawing a blank on the Telemachus reference, btw. Care to impart #gnosis to me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21783" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T21:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">father and son= 22000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm all alooooone.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21785" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Telemachus wondered if Odysseus was really his father.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21786" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, oh, oh, right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, Madison and the guys who were concerned about establishing a state church had a seriously legit reason to be concerned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21788" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When, in history, when the state did not embrace Catholicism, did it refrain from persecuting Catholics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here, mostly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Almost entirely</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21791" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:21:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">If someone were reading this they would conclude that TAC was made up of reactionary traddy Catholic types (i.e. illiberal Leo XIII types), and protestants. Plus one lone, long-suffering Americanist. <br />This isn't my memory of the make-up of the school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, why not go for it-- We haven't persecuted you at all ever!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21793" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The whole history of the West involves the working out of the dynamic of Church and State both in theory and in practice. It has been perfected in theory. Practice is admittedly messier, but we would no doubt look at history differently based on the different principles we embrace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21794" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, that's because you are a snob and only remember the people you liked, and probably also the people you really hated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21795" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are dead wrong about America. The persecution here is brutal precisely because it is subtle and indirect. It has seduced American Catholics to build the pyramids without having to hold a spear to their back by convincing them of the very things you believe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, "perfected in theory" sounds completely meaningless to me if it's never been practiced.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, the persecution is brutal because it's not brutal?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without theory one cannot even meaningfully distinguish between theory and practice. How then can theory be meaningless?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't possibly know if an essentially political theory is perfect if it's never been put into practice</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, that's just how politics works</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffry's point about persecution is good. Aside from Catholicism you find few persecutions or religious wars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Somebody help me out here, Matthew J. Peterson maybe?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21803" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. There is clarity when one knows who the enemy is. When meaningful distinctions are blurred, there is a loss of intelligibility that is utterly destructive of human life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(16, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sounds like the persecution isn't brutal because it isn't persecution</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21805" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is persecution of the most deadly kind. It kills souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(196, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">communism sounded pretty perfect in theory, right? But then, so many famines!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was also somewhat bored by political philosophy at the time. But there were more Burkes than Thomases, iirc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're completely eviscerating the definition of persecution</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never sounded perfect, or anywhere near perfect in theory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Communism did *not* sound perfect in theory. It sounded deadly deadly dull at best.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I was pretty sure you would say that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I am speaking of real persecution. Just as Mother Teresa was speaking of real poverty when she looked at the modern West.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know what you're talking about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(Because I still haven't forgiven Das Kapital for boring my socks off.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21815" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spiritual poverty. Spiritual persecution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, the lone long suffering Americanist. Epic. Can we get an epithet from that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21817" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you saying it's persecution when people go around not believing in the Church and being relativists?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Aaron Dunkel" data-date="2014-09-25T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Aaron Dunkel at 2014-09-25T21:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew George Dolan</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21819" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't even know where to start. I try to give much more than I can time wise.<br />The high Middle Ages failed. Centuries of fighting for power against the impressive state led to covering state power. This led to the abominable corruption of the Church, replete with wicked Popes, and this led to the reformation and the "enlightenment".<br />Blaming Madison for the fact that America was populated by Protestants who understandably said "let's call this off as far as the federal government goes because we don't want bloodshed" strikes me as illogical, ungrateful, and outright absurd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21820" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am saying it is persecution when the state systematically denatures men's souls. It is not just religious truth that is stripped away, but also the capacity to reason about nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"systematically denatures men's souls"-- you are going to have to say what you mean by that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah! What Matthew J. Peterson said!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever the path and cause, all believers* in Christ are persecuted, albeit subtly and perhaps mildly, in America today.<br />*by which I mean Catholics and protestants whose beliefs are in line with historical protestant beliefs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can explain over and over again: faced with radical democratic majorities in the states dictating what was right and wrong and committing acts of injustice, Madison and friends see the need for an overarching government over the states.<br />You want to blame the existence of that government for moral relativism when Madison was expressly trying to prevent majoritarianism in respect to justice. Mitigating democracy with elements of aristocracy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21825" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T21:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the rotten TAC topic more... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21826" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man this thing moves fast. Just one more whack at this and then you all can return to whatever you were doing. I don't know whether it really is the case that most of the students applying and being accepted are alumni kids. There certainly seem to be a lot of them, but I also think the school's reputation has spread a lot since I applied. I was the first person in my family to hear of the school. Those who just don't apply in time can always wait a year. I did that myself- I worked for a year after deciding to come and hearing the class was full, and waited. Another point... I think it would be very hard to maintain the actual balance we have in classes if we tried to do it deliberately with all the applications in front of us at once. What are you going to do, look at a strong applicant with good grades and a weaker applicant who still is capable and say, we need a dumb one- so that's an arbitrary no to the smart one. She will never know why we said know, and she will have the same toss-up to face next year, but we need someone dumber. I can't see it happening that way. Also, I can't imagine anything worse than a room with 17 big talkers. It would not work. It's not the Thread.... class doesn't go on forever, there isn't a mechanism that makes everyone's comments show up separated and readable. You NEED the quiet ones to allow a conversation to even happen with that many people. And then you need the confused ones to get the others to explain things again and again, making it clearer every time to everyone and exposing holes in the accounts proposed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21827" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Smart and talkative aren't convertible. Look at me, I wouldn't shut up. I'd say the classmates whose opinions I valued most ranged from quiet to talkative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET > TAC</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21829" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Accepting the best students isn't going to mean that all the students are talkers, though. A lot of good, conscientious students don't talk very much, but they do the reading carefully and they contribute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21830" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">jinx, Joel HF</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21831" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a good point. But how much they will talk is hard to tell on paper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21832" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And no one here is knowledgeable or capable of dealing with the historical facts on the ground. Facts don't matter here.<br />Thanks to Madison you and the schools you've taught at exist. You want to blame the Constitution for the problems of the Church in America? This is why we fail.<br />They allow for deliberation. Imagine a Roman martyr listening to this?!? Hah. "Yes, yes, you have it so hard. Yes, it's the Constitution's fault that the largest cradle to PhD Catholic education system on watch ever has corrupted itself. Yes. Tell me more about how you don't have the liberty and resources you need?!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21833" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that's true, but it is easier to tell how well they would do the readings, how able they would be to do a prop, etc</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Paul: "I was going to preach here but I see all the gods and too many factions...hold on - I need to go get the government on my side first."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The existence of us, and the schools we teach at, and the schools at which we were educated, is only a good per accidens, dude</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21836" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But won't that just get you the smart ones? And then you have a deficit of less bright, which can actually be an asset.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21837" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I mean the less bright can be an asset to the bright.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21838" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This entire smart and not smart concept seems pretty two dimensional to me.<br />I teach and have been around the top 2-3% of students in the nation and some talk and some don't and they are all very different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21839" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah I know it's the worst wording... I can't think and type fast enough to be nuanced on this thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson someday I would like to meet you and shake your hand, sir.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21841" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean Collins once told me that he didn't say a word, a single word, in class until his Junior year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean there is a range of ability, personality, style of contribution... and this variety is good for everyone, and it happens naturally with rolling admissions, and it would be hard to deliberately reproduce.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21843" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Julie Ponzi" data-date="2014-09-25T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Julie Ponzi at 2014-09-25T21:43:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was thinking about TAC for my kids. But you people are scaring me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, I should say that my application was the all over the map application of an unschooled weirdo, so I should probably be glad of some leniency in the admissions process</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21845" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The less bright as an assert to the bright has always sounded strange to me - get the general point. I mean, in a way I really want to agree. But the thing is that any group will have differences and it just seems strange to say that those with less capability help in this way.<br />If smart students skip and move to fast, they're not really being very smart, are they?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21846" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">'smart' and 'bright' and 'quiet' are just place holders for the real differences because I can;t name them easily</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21847" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Joel HF: do you think I'm an Americanist?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21848" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm saying, there are a lot of students at TAC who aren't really contributing to the program, mostly by not engaging with the readings or in seminar. Abolishing rolling admission could help with that problem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's all I mean... if you think rolling admissions is bad because it keeps out the people you would judge on paper to be 'smarter' or something equally discernable from, well, applications, my guess is that statistically you will probably omit people whose abilities don't make for an impressive application, bt are essential.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if it could- how can you tell if they will read or not from the application? Maybe sometimes you can but no one says that in an essay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, you should know not to take my FB persona too seriously. I also accuse you of being a Straussian, which you've denied many times. After all, it wouldn't be salutary for TACers to think of you that way!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21852" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Julie Ponzi: please, please, please - this is not a representative sample! - but Katherine Gardner is a tutor I wish I had when I was there. And her point is serious - TAC doesn't have this asinine, servile type A who will go and become an unoriginal slave for Goldman problem. Which is cool.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine-- that's a fair point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21854" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it the rolling admissions that is the problem or simply that the admission standards have dropped? (But I think they were raised again since my class 2012 had such a huge drop out compared to the classes after it)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21855" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madison, following Locke, wanted the state to concentrate on the good of the body and move the good of the soul into the private realm. As understandable and appealing as that may have been given the dangers of religious factions, etc., his plan and rationale made life worse. As his letter to Jefferson reveals, Madison feared an established religion more than anything else. By effectively banishing false religions from the public realm so that they could not inflame the hearts of men, he simultaneously banished the true religion from the public realm where it rightly belongs so that it can best be enshrined in the souls of men. The price of "peace" as the world knows it was purchased at the expense of the true peace of Christ. The bargain was a spiritual disaster the effects of which have infected the entire world with a spiritual disease, much like the disease Dostoevsky describes in Raskolnikov's dream in Crime and Punishment. It is the nightmare of the Enlightenment. Welcome to the jungle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21856" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Besides, Matthew J. Peterson, isn't the standard response to deny the existence of Americanism tout court?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21857" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK - Joel HF - by these accusations drawing out my denial you help me keep my cover.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21858" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is also the problem of attrition that Lauren mentions. TAC shouldn't let in so many kids who just can't do the program</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21859" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T21:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why does Locke keep getting in the way of critiquing the admissions office </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21860" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: What philosopher would've wanted the federal government to deal with last end of man and morals in any sort of serious or direct way?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Katherine Gardner: I can see how you might have misgivings about how the total-applicant-pool method would work; I'm not sure how the particulars would work, either. But why do you think rolling admissions is *better*? Just because it's random?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21862" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose that may be true... I guess my experience of admissions at other schools just makes that problem at TAC look very small.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21863" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You wanted the US Protestant sects to fight each other and outlaw Catholicism from these shores?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21864" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, sometimes turning people down makes them work harder to get in which does show something about the work they will do to get through the program You are allowed to challenge the outcome </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21865" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't buy the argument that things are so much worse now than they were in the Middle Ages, or whatever mythical time Jeffrey Bond is referring to when the state took good care of men's souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21866" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine Gardner: what problems if you can speak of them?<br />I still don't buy quite buy it re TAC, but I'm open.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21867" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(190, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine is in the honeymoon phase of her tutor-hood, which is right and good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21868" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T21:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine Gardner: from what little I know of you I thank God you are there!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21869" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-25T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-25T21:53:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha Cohoe: yeah, all those years of rolling admissions and they still let in people who obviously are going to struggle to pass--you can spot them from day one. And they aren't even all that enthusiastic, some of them. There are also people who slip through the cracks and really shouldn't pass, but do, because approaches vary from tutor to tutor. And I'm not even talking about people who are really good at everything but Latin or math. I'm talking about people who couldn't produce an intelligible synopsis of what they had studied in *any* of their classes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21870" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:54:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, maybe that's true, Sam, and thanks for that, Matthew. I am new and I don't have tons of experience with how TAC does things yet, but after seeing the degree to which the last school at which I taught admitted students not remotely fi for the program out of a desire to stay afloat, the student body at TAC looks like a dream. SO few there who aren't interested or capable. So few.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21871" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T21:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think if you were all on my admissions board I wouldn't of had a chance at getting into the program </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(I do think admissions has been better since my class... But I mean we lost a huge percentage freshmen year sooooo yeeeeah)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21873" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(192, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T21:55:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">No place is perfect but a little perspective can be good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21874" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe--surely, at the very least, people are more confused w/r/t morality today than they were in the middle ages, or heck even the 19th century.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21875" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:55:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Locke not only destroyed Western civilization, he also got in the way of TAC admissions policy. That is serious persecution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21876" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T21:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">People who preach "toleration" are never going to be inclined to tolerate those who tell them that what they tolerate is sin and is bad for their souls, as far as I can tell. At least, as far as I can tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's talk about the body, the commercial city: is the aquisitive virtue a new find?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21878" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Ken Masugi" data-date="2014-09-25T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Ken Masugi at 2014-09-25T21:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Locke saved western civilization--what has TAC done lately?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21879" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel - "w/r/t" - been reading some DFW, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21880" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine, sorry, I didn't mean my honeymoon comment to sound dismissive of your points. They're good points. : )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T21:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T21:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We must have a discussion on the American cave. Do you pro-Madison folks recognize such a thing? If the shadows on the wall of the American cave don't come from Madison, from whence do they come?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no cave. 'Tis but a cave within a cave.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21883" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T21:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know. If Alexander VI were my pope I'd be pretty confused about morality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21884" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Things fall apart. The cave cannot hold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21885" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Alexander VI didn't teach heresy. He lived immorally. Very different problem.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21886" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:01:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">People are confused about morality w/ Fancis as Pope but who am I to judge?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21887" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(28, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry! Just a joke!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's actually a very similar problem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21889" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">People might be more confused about morality, but I don't think they're any less moral in practice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Teaching heresy and living immorally are not similar at all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21891" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">every society has its cave, some darker and deeper. What is ours?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21892" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The confusion they cause in the faithful is very similar</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21893" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T22:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I get it. I sound like a non-critical groupie. But I have been to a LOT of colleges (St. Anselm, TAC, Aquinas College, the ITI, and Ave Maria), and have had siblings at many more (Washington University, Harvard, Boston College, ND, Minnesota State, CUA, St John's Annapolis, Santa Croce). And I have never seen one more self-aware of the good it aims at, more careful to make thoughtful judgements about which goods to let go and which not to compromise on, or one that is accomplishing what it claims to so consistently.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On what are you basing that claim?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21895" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How are you supposed to take moral teachings seriously if your teachers don't take them seriously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you asking that question with a 21st century mind?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21897" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine-- I completely agree with that, and I have a lot of experience with academia, too, at this point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I'm trying to imagine the kind of person I might be in midieval France or wherever. So, if I'm not already dead from childbirth (probably would be), then I'm a completely uneducated mother of many, trying to live well but confronted by hypocrisy in the institution I'm supposed to trust.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21899" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think they are worse than merely confused. They condone what were traditionally thought of as perversions, right? And try telling them about virtue and teleology--this is NOT tolerated because it is seen as bigotry. This seems, if not new, then at least so rare that you have to go back a long way to find examples of it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21900" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(203, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our cave is the darkest and deepest of all because Americans are more convinced than any people anywhere that they are free--a sure sign that they are in the cave. Everyone say it all together, "We are free!" "We think for ourselves!" "We are individuals!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21901" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T22:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not claiming it does everything right, of course. It seemed to me that the rolling admissions thing worked well and acknowledged what the school offers as a common good to be sought by any comers who were ready for it, and wanted to hear and consider the objections.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21902" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T22:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, done for now. Cannot read and type fast enough. Long live the Thread!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21903" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No! Don't leave!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21904" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T22:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Must prep for class!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21905" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">All right, fine. See you soon!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21906" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-25T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-25T22:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which Monday is it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21907" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">October 27th</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21908" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T22:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cave life rules: <br />1. Do not make fun of the shadows on the wall.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21909" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, your vision of the world pre-America is based on American propaganda. Do you really think the contemporary world sets the standard for happiness?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I don't. My vision of the world pre-America is actually based on reading a lot of history and literature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21911" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T22:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">2. NEVER tell inhabitants they are cave dwellers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am 100% certain I'd rather live my life now than any other time in history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21913" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">3. NEVER point out the contradictions in Madison's writings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21914" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would have preferred to die at Thermopylae.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T22:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">3. Reverence the cave founders always and praise the craftsmanship of their freedom chains.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, yeah, we're very tolerant of sexual perversion these days. That's terrible. But we're not tolerant of violence against children anymore. We're not tolerant of violence against women. We're not tolerant of vice and hypocrisy and corruption in the clergy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21917" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously? Wouldn't you just have gone to hell?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or maybe limbo, if you were really, really good?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There has never been greater violence against children. Give 'em an iPad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21920" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What? Seriously?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seriously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's start with abortion and go from there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. Fair enough. We're no longer tolerant of violence against children who are born.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21925" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno. I think the 20th century has some of the worst violence against children known to man--and that's excluding abortion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21926" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">4. Point out the truth that all our ancestors were cave men and cave dwellers (shadows that depict slavery, women's oppression' horrible monarchs, child abuse and homophobia except the enlighted Spartan lover warriors etc.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's true, I'm talking about in America</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agreed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21929" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You don't see the spiritual war waged against the family, children being the greatest victims?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21930" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:17:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the most agreement here is Jeffrey Bond and others and myself when it comes to the evils we do face, and the problems of contemporary society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21931" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it's unique to this era. I don't think it's worse in this era than other eras. And I think as a society, we are less tolerant of violence against (born) children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21932" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And American is exporting that spiritual war abroad as it compels the rest of the world to embrace its anti-principles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21933" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T22:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">5. Yell the freedom cry of Caliban loudest. This gets many cave brownie points and qualifies you for cave leader.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21934" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree about the evils, but I think this rosy nostalgia for a better time when the church was looking out for souls is revisionist nonsense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not about nostalgia. It is an argument about reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21936" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine Gardner - thank you so much for these comments above. I need them. They mean much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21937" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh, plenty of times similar re violence against children.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But they cared a lot about their common good in Sparta. And Rome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">20th century violence against man, woman and child is unprecedented. How do the progressivists account for it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's a progressive, here?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You, by your own admission </p>
</li>
<li id="post_21942" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah - it stems from philosophies that erect man as god.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are supporters of Madison called to account for crimes of Socialists and Communists and Totalitarians?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because Madison opened the door and let them in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak-- really? When did I say that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21946" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">w<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21947" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">t</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21948" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">f</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Catholic Church opened the door, by screwing up so badly when it was in charge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21950" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The founders were hypocritical racists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spartan infanticide was evil. But it made more sense than our version. The state threw the weak off the cliffs. We grant that "power" to the individual in the name of "privacy."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21952" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you sure you actually did get in the program, Lauren? Maybe that diploma was just a likeness of a diploma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21953" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:27:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">*ahem* a SHADOW of a likeness of a diploma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21954" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have blood on our hands, but thankfully we won this century and not the others – the best by far of an imperfect bunch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They totally were, Joel, but they had some good ideas about how to construct a government</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21956" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the rolling admission scheme, for much the same reasons as Katherine is articulating: especially since it encourages evaluating each application on its own merits rather than by comparison to others. (And I missed the class I began my application for because of this policy).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21957" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: right - so better in your mind if the state sanctions and forces child sacrifice to it rather than letting it hang on individuals?!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21958" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as the "people you know will drop out": several of those people in my class would have looked great on paper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Sparta a Catholic would have to leave or eventually be slain, no doubt.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21960" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(81, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Evil either way. But Sparta had a criterion that limited this evil. Our version knows no limits. The Spartans, for all their flaws, would not have decimated their own population.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21961" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure they would, if a tenth of the population had birth defects.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21962" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A Catholic in Sparta would know the enemy. A Catholic in America embraces the enemy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21963" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">On the backs of oppressed slaves? Because I don't see how Jefferson's or Madison's ideas work without slavery. Well, capitalism exports it, I suppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the wind shall say, here were decent godless people...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Maybe slightly hyperbolic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it is much worse to force a mother to kill her baby than to allow a mother to kill her baby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^This is a horrific statement</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21968" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gently incentivize is what we do in our country.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant yours, but I should have asked for a clarification first. Worse for whom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">for mothers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21972" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Worse for the one permitting or forcing, I presume</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21973" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We don't "allow" abortion in this country. At the federal level we encourage it, particularly for the poor. The states have various approaches.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21974" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is worse for the mother to freely and without coercion choose abortion, than to do so under duress</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21975" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You really think it is better for a mother to be allowed to kill her own child than to be forced to kill her own child?!?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21976" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course I do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really have no idea why this is so controversial.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21978" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cause to do evil is worse than to suffer it, and to the degree that one is coerced, it is involuntary</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21979" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, in Sparta the child was taken from the mother and killed if it was defective. This is evil. But the mother killing her own child is much worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-25T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-25T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most mothers aren't choosing abortion "freely" really. I mean, they don't have a gun to their head, but still.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21981" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think some people are considering individual guilt while others are considering the just order of the community</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21982" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">IOW, the moral evil of a woman who, without duress, chooses abortion is greater than the suffering of injustice on her prt by being coerced</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Abortion is hidden. the mother who kills her child with full knowledge of what she is doing is very rare</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21984" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You would elevate the freedom of choice for the mother above the mother's blamelessness if forced?!?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would rather live in a state where I was allowed to have an abortion than in one where I might one day be forced to kill my child</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21986" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(70, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I would say that a society that forces abortions / infanticides is a worse society than one that merely permits them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21987" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But a woman who freely choose abortion/infanticide is more guilty than one who chooses those under duress.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21988" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am shocked that that is controversial...even Socrates saw that doing evil is worse than suffering it.<br />Even if one grants, arguendo, that there is usually some involuntariness due to ignorance, well ignorance is a sin. And even if the ignorance is inculpable, it takes the nature of a punishment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21989" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, and our society is closer to Sparta than I initially admitted, because Joel's point about incentivization is true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Their only monument the asphalt road...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21991" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a thousand lost golf balls</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21992" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley hit it on the head. The evil for this woman is greater in choosing evil. The evil of society in general is greater in forcing it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I think Joshua and Samantha are talking past each other.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21994" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(41, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Listen, I'm speaking as a mother here. I would probably do any evil to prevent any of my children being killed. The evil of being forced to expose one of my babies is incalculably horrifying to me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But not a regime that allows you to murder your child at your convenience?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you think that is an attitude to defend? Many might act that way, but we would say that is because we are sinful creatures</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you still think the freedom for mothers to do it themselves is better?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(67, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's horrifying to me to, but the other is worse</p>
</li>
<li id="post_21999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The ancient Greeks had some ... population problems, no? Bwhaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22001" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What I actually worry about today is forced sterilization for poor people and criminals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22002" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And sterilization of women in the third world</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22003" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">under the guise of helping them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22004" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It has happened from time to time in the 20th century, and there seems to be a vocal group of people that are pushing it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22005" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The "this regime is more evil than that regime" is a pointless exercise unless it relates to larger points.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The U.N. with America leading the way</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if you want to play that game it is a game of comparison and what is sanctioned and what is not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I don't know why these points are being used against me. I'm horrified by all those things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22009" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is interesting that opposition to U.N. population control is the one thing that brings together the Catholics and the Muslims.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And in that comparative the America as the Great Satan bit falls flat for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is interesting that "social issues" in a broad sense are common ground for Catholics and Muslims (excepting certain methods of evangelization and such).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But regardless, if you want to talk about solutions, I'm interested. I'm happy for what Madison gave me in that respect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz I don't know if that attitude is to be defended or not, but it's how God made mothers and I wouldn't try to fight it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22014" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a general principle as a young man to not get into particulars in political or ethical matters.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T22:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, no solutions from me, Matthew J. Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22016" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Knock it off with the prudence, Ed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22017" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:47:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW, a few points on previous comments<br />1. Whatever Locke held, and whatever Madison held, sometimes the power of a principle extends beyond the provincialism of its author. Locke would exclude Catholics from toleration. Madison, in the Detach Memoranda isn't exactly a shining example of religious liberty either (he being against the freedom of Churches, as corporate entities, and indeed against their incorporation...individuals only. Against chaplains in the military too)<br />But the actual law of the 1st amendment takes a life of its own, one far better, perhaps, than intended by some of the founders<br />2. Alexander VI was not as bad a portrayed in history. We repeat legends and calumnies against him all the time. The real Alexander was no shining eample of holiness, but the debauchery he is often accused of is largely mythological<br />Benedict IX really should be the bad pope to cite against us!<br />3. The Church holds that societies and states, qua societies and states, must recognize and submit to the reign of Christ. But we should also be ready to admit that this submission has rarely been achieved in history even when the state de iure professed such submission. Still we should work for its real accomplishment, true conversion to Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22018" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't let Aristotle scare you away, Edward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22019" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A society in which I was at serious risk of having a baby taken from me and killed is a society I would rather die than live in. Seriously, I think if I were given the choice I would simply rather not live. America, I can live in. That's all I was trying to say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22020" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, God clearly does not want us to do evil that good may come.He didn't make mothers that way. Sorry, I don't buy that. Perhaps the strong natural inclinations He did create them with, to defend their children, etc. But it is only concupiscence that corrupt that into inordinately loving them so as to prefer them against God, which is what doing evil for them would entail.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22021" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(93, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can agree with Mrs. Cohoe's last statement. The social order would be worse and more evil, I think we can all agree with that. And the evil to mothers who would not destroy their children worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, when the Turks captured Bulgaria they began a brutal campaign to convert the natives to Islam. They lined families up on bridges and took them one by one, demanding their conversion or their heads. Their heads fell by the hundreds into the rivers. Women would encourage their own children to face the blade first, to ensure them the Kingdom before bowing their own necks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I obviously agree with point 3. Point 2 I cannot say. As for Point 1, I think the First Amendment, whatever the intention of its creators--and they had different aims that led to it as a sort of compromise--has been a disaster.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak-- I've read those kinds of stories and I really can't think about them. That's all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22025" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But you can stomach the contemplation of a regime that allows, even encourages mothers to murder their own babies for the sake of convenience?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22026" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What would not having the first amendment have changed? It's meaning was perverted and misused, as the Feds feared. But that was on account of prots fighting Catholics and the rise of new ideas in Merica.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22027" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley. we want data </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22028" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">How did this turn into accusations that I'm somehow ok with abortion?? I can live in this country. So, presumably, can you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22029" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhaha. The hermeneutic of inquisition and critique.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are putting words in my mouth. I never accused you of being okay with abortion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22031" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but you've got a tone, young man.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would rather live in a regime that allows mothers to abort their babies, than one in which I might be in danger of allowing my baby to be murdered.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22033" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T22:59:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, that escalated quickly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22034" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T22:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The First Amendment enshrines the contradiction of Locke's doctrine of toleration. As such, it actually establishes a pseudo religion while insisting that no religion can be established. As the law of the land, it forms souls according to its vision of religious indifferentism. Most Catholics place this pseudo dogma above the teachings of the Church. Or rather, they reinterpret Catholicism to mean what the First Amendments means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T22:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Begging your pardon ma'am, but what happens to the mother's soul in either case?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22036" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T22:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T22:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Does anyone here actually think any of these founder cats would be cool with the last century of moral libertarianism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22037" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey, Joshua' point one is simply to detach Madison from the law written. He makes no judgement regarding religious liberty. He is being more prudent than Edward perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Marie Pitt-Payne" data-date="2014-09-25T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-09-25T23:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone seen this documentary? At least watch the trailer... the three deadliest words in the world = "It's a girl"<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISme5-9orR0</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22039" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(19, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Terrible, bad thing happen to the mother's soul in both cases</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it worse to commit evil or suffer evil? Simple question, ma'am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22041" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madison actually ate babies for breakfast. Chubby slave babies from Jefferson's plantations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22042" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, in the case of abortion, the guilt is almost always mitigated by a lack of full understanding of what is being done</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22043" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^and violence from friends/family/boyfriend</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22044" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T23:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, by the way, the only reason I'm still on this thread tonight is because my wife is at Jimmy Kimmel live watching this super trendy irish band called The Script play music because my little sister asked her to go, not because she even knew who the band was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, I know I brought it upon myself, but you can quit with the ma'am now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T23:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes ma'am</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22047" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T23:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think anyone advocating for ye olde good olde days should be bringing up slavery.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22048" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T23:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T23:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is advocating for "the good old days?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and seriously, if we take Church documents seriously about the numerous reforms proposed for the clergy throughout history thinks that the average Catholic well taught and well spiritually cared for. That's just a bunch of hooey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22051" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T23:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is impossible to imagine those men in powdered wigs walking around in the Village. No doubt anyone from any time launched forward into the future would be in shock--even Charlton Heston. But it is likely, as you suggest, that they would be shocked out of their stockings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-25T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-25T23:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And you know how the song goes - "in olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking but now God knoooooooows - anything gooooooes!!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is clear, and tNET has lead us to this, that the only political answer is perpetual revolution.<br />LONG LIVE THE SOVIET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22054" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, again, here we are. Waddya wanna do now?<br />Keep teaching. I love you people. But what do yah sugges.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">mb. What did you try to say?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22056" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">perpetual revolution</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22057" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T23:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Old authors who all once knew better words now only use four-letter words, writing prose, anything goes!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22058" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak-- in both states, terrible evil is being done. I would rather be allowed to do a certain evil, that I would never do, than be forced to suffer state-sanctioned murder of my baby. I mean, I still don't see why this is so controversial</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22059" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no before that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22060" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many local councils and synods throughout Church history have been about corrective measures for unholy, untrained, or otherwise clergymen. Let's not rosy the past up too much now folks.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">THANK you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">see also "why can't bishop's bastards inherit sees"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22063" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">miss me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22064" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T23:10:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ladies and gents, it has been a pleasure to spend the evening with you, but I will pay dearly in the morning. No regrets, of course. We must all give our best to the Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did, actually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22066" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks for your thoughts, Dr. Bond</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22067" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good night, Dr. Bond. Thanks for coming when I summoned you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22068" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-25T23:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-25T23:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Drop the "Dr" folks. Just call me "Space man". God bless us all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22069" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope, let's be formal, right Dr Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22070" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read those, Michael. I' m not nostalgic (ok a little). I'm apoplectic </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, to be clear, I agree in principle that it's better to suffer evil than to do evil. I don't actually think that is an argument that exposing infants is better than abortion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22072" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T23:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T23:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well Jefferson and Madison both predicted we would all be unitarians by the mid 19th century..Jeffrey Bond. I think the actual playing out of the 1st amendment has been, on the whole better, than it could have been.<br />My judgment on religious liberty, I forgot, is not known to you. I got some ire before for my criticism of the USCCB's campaign here<br />Religious liberty is ultimately not fully coherent. And we see the conflict in conflicting approaches by SCOTUS (compare Yoder to Employment v. Smith). And while we have granted far more standing to Churches than Madison would like, there is still the conflict over who possesses liberty, a church or the individuals? Because they sometimes conflict.<br />The American Myth of Religious Freedom by Craycraft does a good job documenting the dissonance, and Madison's views. But I think the actual law, as received in a body of citizens at once more conservative and religious than many of the Fathers, is a little better than the picture he portrays. Even if one cannot take religious liberty as a real principle, in the context of a society that does not submit to Christ, perhaps the somewhat contrived application of it, in the context of "ordered liberty," does more good than harm given our actual political reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22073" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T23:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't call me Dr.; can't help it if I had to receive the mark of the beast. <br />Someday I hope to have booze with Jeffrey Bond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22074" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-25T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-25T23:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">My little boys are begging me to read this book to them, so I must go:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF ignoring actuaI things said by and done by Madison and Jefferson and the actuaI cIimate of a worId with essentiaIIy 100% racism. Even IincoIn was a racist. Not sure you couId find from the 1700s that thought bIacs were equaI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22076" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua than who "portrays"? Amtecedents. Member? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22077" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T23:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The American Myth of Religious Freedom by Craycraft, which was the antecedent in that paragraph...I was both plugging it and criticizing it at the same time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22078" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Peterson, come to the Odyssey reading next summer in Chicago</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22079" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just figured that out. sorry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And they thought it was dead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22081" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I guess the problem I have with the U-S-A!! U-S-A!! types is that it is really an accident of birth that anyone is born anywhere. The difference being that people who are proud of being (say) German in Germany have a "natio" and "lingua" that isn't the same as a 'Merican.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22082" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's really just elitism on my part. Patriotism is too close to nationalism, and in a country with no shared "natio" it is meaningless</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22083" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know what happened here tonight. I thought I was trying to defend religious liberty, and argue that state supported churches were a bad thing, historically. Then I'm was being told I need to encourage my children to be beheaded and people are freaking out about abortion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22084" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's a nacho?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(208, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Patriotism is like filial piety. It's accidental, but it's still good to love your country and your parents. It's even good to have pride in them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22086" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not if your countrymen aren't the same as you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22087" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHAT is wrong with you, Samantha? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22088" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T23:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with the above ^ True patriotism is not about an ideology, but about te common soil and society, and the common good amongst you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why not? You still have shared institutions, national history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no I don't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22091" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T23:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T23:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">By above I meant Mrs. Cohoe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22092" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cause you're a special, self-invented snowflake, yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22093" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">National history? Genocide of the indigenous population, slavery, immigrant virtual slavery, child labor, crony capitalism.... stop me when I get to something you guys like</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22094" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with the Ashman hater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22095" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, ok, a lot of it's pretty horrible, but it's still our history</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YOUR history. my family immigrated later</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But natio is already a weakened bond and prone to false patriotism. But I agree with Beitia otherwise ( and Samantha)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can you agree with both of us?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22099" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:34:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET takes synthesis and antithesis and overcomes it all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22100" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">....except for the fact that pretty much every other country was more horribIe and the US reaIIy pushed freedom, Iiberty, naturaI rights and the modernization of government to unprecedented areas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, but you grew up here. You benefitted from our institutions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and immigration is part of our natio</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a huge part, in fact</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22104" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then it is a really weak sense of natio</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A criticaI part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whether your ancestors came over on the Mayflower (like MINE did) or later, on some boat from the continent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dont think Beitia is focusing on the right things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22108" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What are the positive as they say things we have in common?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22109" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T23:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about going to the same elementary school, singing What a child this is in the (public school) Christmas pangeant. How about my great uncle being big into early hotrods, and a big name in the circle? Why does it have to only be the big things in history when we speak of common history?<br />How about the death of my great uncle on Tarawa? And his sparing of a Japanese soldier in a previous battle...one he recognized as a fellow student from his California HS who had been conscripted while visiting relatives in Japan?<br />I am not a nationalist. Nationalism is part and parcel of modernity, I know. But I don't follow that modern idea. My country is my country, regardless of any attribution of nationality. We in fact live in one society, and even if only in mourning over it, I am connected to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22110" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It might be weak, but it's there. I feel the absence of it every time I go to Canada</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22111" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, if you can't give the US some credit for being Iess shitty that most any country in the previous miIIenium......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22112" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwLWNXFH2rg<br />Homer Simpson - USA<br />Homer Simpson - USA<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I think I just don't have the same tie to the land you've got</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22114" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But truly, you don't have to think the US *is* any better than any other country to feel patriotism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is the little things too that i am talking about, Joshua.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22116" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">perpetual revolution, like I said</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22117" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael-- would you think it was impious of me if I started talking about my parents the way you're talking about America?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">has anyone here read Nicholas Berdyaev's "The Russian Ideal"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, you haven't met mine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Au contraire, Michael, *you* haven't met *mine*</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NationaI preference is a good thing. If I say "Greece is the best because......" and you have good reasons, fantastic. But it becomes invaIid if you refuse to change preferences and move when another country surpasses your favorite. It sets you up as an awfuI consumer. And if you're a nation who doesn't want to attract more paying customers, and teII peopIe they can't come, then you're shitty at free marqet enterprise. And worse if you start shooting peopIe who want to move to teh competition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">let's just say filial piety is not one of my virtues</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, mine either, I'm trying to make an argument that we owe some small amount of respect to our country, as we do to our parents</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not an uncriticaI, biased respect though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An appreciation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22126" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A bit of bias is ok, I think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I need to go to bed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22128" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not even eleven yet!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22129" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(36, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My kids will all be up before six, and they're all sick, and my husband has abandoned me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22130" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it is conscious bias, because you enJoy it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22131" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will be at work before six.....c'est la vie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22132" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But at least tNET didn't abandon me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22133" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-25T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-25T23:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks tNET. Goodnight</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">perpetual revolution or constant change establishes a no country. Beitia's complaint is valid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To respond to Joshua, the hotrods are gone as the caroling of my youth. The California farms are no more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-25T23:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-25T23:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Absence of Americanism in Canada? Imagine that <br />I know what you mean though, Canada does lack the pride of a nation, however, it's people in general are more friendly (and how can you be proud of a country that's try to get a spoiled boy to hold the office of Prime Minister... Seriously!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And what now binds us as a people? What customs? Or is it only a common core of beliefs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T23:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We carolled until 1998....and I still have family on farmland</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22139" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-25T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-25T23:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A Iot of the Canadians I've met are pretty good at criticizing other countries though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22140" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">my childhood in California was living with a grandparent in a trailer park in Anaheim. Buena Vista trailer park, to be exact. The happiest trailer park on earth</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-25T23:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-25T23:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Beitia doesnt have that. I am in rural America and it is better here. Folks still carry traditions or try to graft them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22142" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-25T23:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-25T23:55:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Lauren Ogrodnick, Candians are not more friendly per se. They are generally more rural. Think of it this way, New Yorkers are thought of as rude, but all the little comon courtesies one might extend in a smaller town...imagine trying that when instead of interacting with a dozen people a day, you interact with thousands.<br />It is one thing to stop and let a car out of a parking lot in a small town, quite another to do that for every car that it might benefit in LA. What is 30 seconds inconvenience in one, is devastating traffic causing in another. I think a one one one comparison would have to be betwen similar demographics, rural to rural and so on</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22143" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-25T23:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-25T23:56:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">my first "I am not like these people" elitist moment came there.<br />I told a kid at the playground "Your grammar could use some work"<br />he responded with "well, your gramma's not so great either"<br />I was not like these men</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22144" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T23:59:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">And now for some trivia. There are official SI abbreviations for large groups of years: ka (kiloannus), Ma (megaannus) . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year#SI_prefix_multipliers<br />Year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />A year (Old English gēar, Gothic jēr, Runic Jēran) is the orbital period of the Earth moving in its orbit around the...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG<br />September 25 at 11:58pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Michael Beitia is it just me, or does that look like "mega anus"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22145" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-25T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-25T23:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Pa (petaannus) stands for 10^15 years . . . my I aged when I became a father.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22146" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">which is bizarre, because the so-called age of the universe is several orders of magnitude less that "pete's anus"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-26T00:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-26T00:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Traffic is a bad example, people are bad drivers everywhere and people who try to be nice just cause more problems on the road</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22148" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just got the kids down. Wife not back yet. Time for...Simpler Times:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22149" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there are people who are nice on the road (rough night on the south side tonight...)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22150" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(63, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren, it's not "people" who are bad drivers but "other people" that are bad drivers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22151" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">petannus and megaannus: sounds like it really hurts. Aint right that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22152" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-26T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-26T00:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And why did this thread go crazy when I could finally put my baby down without her waking but was dead when I only had one arm available.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially the dude in front of me the other night who was trying to take an unprotected left turn across a major street (New York Ave.) despite the "No turns" sign right next to the traffic light.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The 25 cars behind me played a new symphony in response to that incident.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22155" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">some jerk got shot at the 67th street exit of the Dan Ryan tonight, so no traffic could turn left, so everything bottled up on the way to Mass.... ugh it took four cycles of the lights for me to get through.<br />#Chiraqproblems</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22156" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Getting shot is generally a pretty thoughtless thing to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22157" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">then when I finally got to the intersection, the car 2 in front of me STOPS in the middle of State street, so no one can move, to decide which way to go. Horn section and f-bomb section blaring</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty frequent where I travel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">shot *and* killed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22160" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The pastor at one of the Catholic Churches in the area has a rosary made from casings collected outside his downtown DC church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have literally had to chase foaming at the mouth crackheads out of our parish</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but not for a few years</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Friends womder why I dont want to move back to the city.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was in a hurry to get to Mass, as well, because my second son was on the schedule for second acolyte</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . and DC has had some of the most ridiculous gun laws in the nation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so did Illinois</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe that's where I find the "natio" in the USA, guns. and the love of guns, and the use of guns.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22168" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's pretty distinctive </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22169" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">there's only 80 homicides in DC to date this year. <br />We've got 294!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">LA county had 387, but that's the only place I can find with a higher number and it isn't directly comparable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, there were more than 2,000 murders in NYC in 1990</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22172" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now it's down to like 230-something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.nyc.gov/.../pdf/crime_statistics/cscity.pdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22174" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wow. just wow. those numbers are staggering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">3000 rapes!? 44000 Felony assaults!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's 120 felony assaults PER DAY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T00:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not support the theory of ensoulment. Ineffabilis Deus uses the words infusion of soul, not ensoulment, when describing the creation of the Mother of Jesus. The dogma merely states that Mary was Immaculately conceived, once, in body and soul and substance, all at the same time. Mary is human, so it seems the dogma may also shed light on human conception in general; conception being the fusion of the very first strand of genetic material, together at the same time and along with the infusion of the soul, the soul acting as formal principle to the fusion of the first material component of the new human person. One may think of zipping a sweater; the form of the article of clothing -- its shaping or coming together -- is the result of the zipping, both happening in one unified act. No other theory seems to make philosophical sense. Mary was conceived in this manner, it seems, and most definitely preserved by a singular act of grace from original sin.<br />Please do not collapse this theological discussion of the Theotokos into a base discussion of human anatomy, as happened before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22178" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There have been four mayors of NYC since 1990, David N. Dinkins, Rudy Giuliani, Michael Bloomberg and Bill de Blasio.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever you think of NYC politics, they must have got something right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22180" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">either that or they're just ignoring certain areas....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott just posted something here, but I'm not sure y'all can see it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh I can see it, Scott unblocked me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(74, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Violent crime has gone way down over all since the late 70s almost everywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to get up super early in the morning to be at work so I will offer a few fly-by comments</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22186" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">immaculate enzippment</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since the 80s and 90s in large urban areas things have improved drastically re crime.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Infusion of soul = ensoulment. each rational immortal human soul is made by specific creative act of God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if what is responsible, Matthew J. Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to get up at 4:30 tomorrow myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22191" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">4:30 pacific? I'm 2 hours ahead of you buddy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22192" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and that's when my alarm is set for</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: disputed by scholars and pols, but the facts are amazing. I'm not sure myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my best case if five hours, at this point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22195" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are we on tNET then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It could indicate that we no longer value courage and thus, even if it's a good thing, it could be a sign of societal degeneration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22197" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've had a few, went to Mass this evening, the football game was a joke by the time I got home..... you know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22198" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">drink or die?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22200" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Into the tNET rode the 5,000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">like as asshole, I'm about to crack another beer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, Edward Langley. Decline narratives aren't much better than prog-ery. But who knows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22203" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, at least in hindsight, it looks like the decline of Rome was caused in an increase of luxury and a decline of the martial virtues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yah, but wouldn't luxury/dissipation lead to violence among the have nots?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22205" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But soft despotism might be the answer, to be sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22206" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depends on how lazy it made them. I'd expect initially it would cause an increase of violence and then, through welfare programs like Caesar's distribution of grain, to complacency.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Last one, I swear. ..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22208" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, as far as science and industry goes, I don't think the US today is anything like the US of the 40s-70s or so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22209" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(with the possible exception of the tech sector).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22210" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">panis et circensis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22211" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, even there, Asia and Russia seem to produce better programmers than we do nowadays.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22212" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">cable TV and food stamps protect the gated communities....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22213" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T00:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T00:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Immaculate enzippment is a lot more appealing this time. But strike the zipper analogy for Our Lady. I think it may hold some value for the rest of us in general.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22214" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">la plus la change la plus la meme</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">i hit two birds with one platitude that time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22216" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and the history of real culture, of philosophy, theology, music and painting is a blatant decline).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22217" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">yeah 80s punk is much better than what we have now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Art is on the biggest upswing in 20 years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">biggest in the sense of "Big f-ing rock"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">20 years is barely a blip.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is art?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">philosophy is in decline because of all those damn analyticals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22223" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lol yeah not that, put painting and fine arts are on a current upswing. The galleries and pricing is going up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22224" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You misspelled Heidegger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ask Heidegger. He's got a great essay on "what is a work of art</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm actually related to the greatest living artist </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Philosophy is in decline because of specialization within STEM.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://jameslangley.com/rome/<br />Views of Rome<br />CONTACT JAMES LANGLEY ⎜ ARTIST<br />JAMESLANGLEY.COM<br />September 26 at 12:49am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Scott Weinberg Art is an imitation in the form in a different substance. A metaphor, for example.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22229" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The current problem within business is the slow retirement of baby boomers and the promotion of engineers into management.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22230" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">don't bait me, Scott, I'm tired</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^recursive reversal</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22232" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T00:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Cricket sings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22233" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">STEM is on a decline too, though, there's a book by a prominent physicist, Lee Smolin, in which he basically says "look, the problem with physics today is that we really haven't made any progress since the 1950s"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Engineersake great first tier management, but are worthless in second tier and above</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Engineers are part artist, part scientist, and hopefully very wealthy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True and stem is in decline because of specialized stem high schools Forcing the learning curve downward to jr high.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22237" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-26T00:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love how we reminisced in the absence of trollery, and now that it returns we brush it off and continue on our way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22238" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22239" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T00:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm in decline though, I'll tell you that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The. Doubly stupid companies push engineers to get business degrees but they just become worse engineers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22242" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T00:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T00:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Crickets have not changed their tune in centuries. Their tune is simple, and happy. It just goes to show that if you practice a lot and keep things simple you will be happy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22243" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T00:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, my beer is empty.... 4 hours is the best I can do. Catch you all in about 5 hours...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22244" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22245" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">True the crickets are the same, but if they don't evolve they will be dinosaurs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T00:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T00:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You might actually feel better with only 3 hours of sleep: they say the sleep cycle is 90 mins.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think engineers have to be very creative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22248" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T00:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good night too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(212, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The best human orchiatrated experiment in genetics is dog breeding. Look at the wonderful accomplishments in rapid evolution through selective breeding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing evolves except thinking make it so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wrong. Engineers do not have to be creative At all. Most can not draw a square if you do not define it for them first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22252" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T00:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Engineers have become so specialized that they all require architects to design their thoughts, providing every predefined input and the form of every expected output.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T00:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T00:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ i believe it, Jeff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now, there is a new category of engineer the UX designer. They define the user, complete with virtual backstory and imaginary life history, they the. Define how this person likes to behave and what they can cope with learning or using. They then define for the engineer what exactly to do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22255" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Engineers are more worthless now then ever before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ peregrine bonaventure [2 UP]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are the carpenters of the virtual world, they can build anything someone else designs. Construction is too complex for the designer/builder</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, he's bAck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Carpenters i have worked with are very sharp. Not so much the engineers but there are exceptions like the ONE engineer in the company who knew everything at our avionics manufacturing co. without blueprints.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22260" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T01:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Holy cannoli, he's back...and making demands...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T01:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(as Peregrine Bonaventure?)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T01:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As Scott Weinberg. Can you see him? The usual drivel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">SW. He tried raising IC. Compared ensoulment to zipping a sweater.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T01:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can see him, but not the demands.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22265" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T01:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, talk about silliness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Orthodoxy by faith vs cult followers....... Go</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why is he back? Who permitted this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T01:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T01:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Looks like Matthew re-friended him or something like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You missed the invitation Beitia and Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The rest of you did not spawn interesting enough discussion and he was invited to return.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22271" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T01:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Garbage. I wish my disapproval noted for posterity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22272" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There was an outpour of tears. Peoples wanted there pet back: tNET circenses. Matthew gave into the hoi polloi.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the "faith of a child" better than examined belief?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Roman gladiator shows = tNET troll baiting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">faith of a child >> examined belief</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Faith is belief in what reason cannot know, properly speaking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True, but it would seem that most people do not "study" their faith and therefore take more by faith</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T01:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">At what point is a faith a cult?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T01:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">immediately. But there is good cultus and cultish fideism or fuhrer worship, then superstition and then the occult. I guess cults are all a form of false worship or true cult.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22280" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T01:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guns have very little to do with crime rates, as crime fell in both states that eased guns laws and those that tightened them. And we can compare stats in Australia before and after Howard, and same with England and see similar statistical insignificance.<br />I would have to look up the exact numbers for coefficients, but Mueller's formula for murder rates in the US satisfies the requirements of cointergration. log(homicide rate)= c1 + c2*log(economic fatherhood) + c3*log (proportion of adult males in prison) + c4* log(chance of murderer being executed) + c5*log(abortion rate lagged 16 years)<br />Economic fatherhood is the proportion of men, between 18-45 who actively are involved in fatherhood. Mueller proposed, following Augustine's account of gifts and crimes, and that anti-social indicators would vary inversely with pro-social indicators, and an exemplar is the giving of self in fatherhood He only roughly estimated this value (lacking sufficient data to be more each) by taking the total fertility rate as an indicator, factoring out males in prison and children supported by the state.<br />c1 was a relative constant over the last 80 years of 1.702962 . c2 is -0.716678 (iow for every 1% increase in economic fatherhood, murder rates fall by ~.72%) c3 is -0.250365 (for every 1% increase murder rates fall 0.25% and you get the picture for the rest). c4 is -0.029457, c5 is 0.083556 (meaning abortion rates positively correlate with murder rates, contrary Freaknomics). c1 can be said to represent a sum of other factors, that have overall remained fairly constant. And using a different c1 for each country, we find the formula works in all countries. It also works with other crimes. Note how execution rates do correlate with less murder, but has far less effect than healthy families! Likewise, attributing the recent (1994-present) dropping rates to incarceration (punishment as incapacitation) is only a very partial picture, and a costly and sometimes questionable method. Whereas economic fatherhood (and motherhood especially) is a positive cost measure. Note too, that the c1 constant varies inversely with the suicide rate of most developed countries...what I mean is that countries with an historically lower murder rate, also have historically a higher suicide rate. It is an interesting question, that Mueller could not answer, what happened between 1920-1936, that changed the constant coefficient. The murder rate in the US used to be a lot higher than say the UK, way before even the UK had guns laws...theirs has increased, ours decreased (4 times higher rather than 16 times higher!)...of course they count it different too....comparing statistics based on different criteria is messy.<br />Sorry for the digression there, but the comment about guns resurfaced my thoughts from last night (around 4 am while working). I am likely the biggest gun nut on this thread, but there is some truth to "guns" being a peculiar American obsession, that is rather sad (both among those pro-gun and anti-gun). An excuse to ignore the more fundamental issue of marriage and family, and by extension real community. But it gets to a deeper issue. In both sides of the debate, there is an underlying current of individualistic principles. This stands out most with pro-gun advocates, but it is also there in the other side and their right to feel safe and such. And no one questions the common ground which is the real problem...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22281" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T02:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T02:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the problem with not refreshing the page...I was responding to Michael Beitia's claim about the natio of this country....an hour and a half later. I am wondering as to Edward Langley's thoughts here. I dare not speak of the fall of Rome....I am not even sure we can speak of a fall at all. When was it exactly?<br />The late 3rd century, and Diocletian's attempt to decentralize rule (two Caesars and two pro-consuls etc)<br />Post Theodosius, the last to rule over all of the Empire (unless you count Zeno's brief treatment of Odoacer as viceregent and himself as sole emperor)?<br />The establishment of the Ostrogothic kingdom?<br />The Senate remained throughout the kingdom and republic and empire. It was the constant political institution of Rome...and it just sort of faded away. We know it recognized Emperor Phocas in 603 AD, even though Gregory was already lamenting the decline of it as an institution...and its place of meeting was turned intoa Church in 630....seems from 500-630 is just withered slowly and died.<br />The eastern Senate remained longer and underwent a similar fate, fading away after 1204 (its last known act was then). But the Emperor remained.<br />So maybe the fall of Constantinople?<br />But clearly in crowning Charlemagne emperor of the Romans, and prior to that still have a relation with the eastern Emperor, the was a sense even in the 8th and 9th century west that Rome was still a thing.<br />So what, 1806? Or in 1918 with the deposition of Bl. Carl?<br />Or why not even now...that is right, Lichenstein is the last remnant of the Holy Roman Empire! Roe still lives in Lichenstein!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22282" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T02:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T02:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe rather than fall, we could say Rome sort of mutated, and divide, and some elements of this fell, others mutated more, divided more, ad nauseam.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T02:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T02:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you think of the narrative that attributes the decline of Rome to Epicureanism, Joshua?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22284" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T03:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I had my first real encounter with a personalist yesterday. It didn't go well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T03:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T03:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go well for him or you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22286" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T03:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T03:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neither?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22287" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T03:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">His lecture was about refuting metaphysical errors of Christopher West. So I thought we'd have some common ground. Boy was I wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22288" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T03:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Try arguing with a real Scotist sometime.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22289" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T03:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T03:26:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">He says that souls are masculine or feminine before they are infused into bodies, and when I challenged him on this he simply dismissed the authority of the fathers and said I didn't understand the relationship between body and soul. All the while, he got a woman in the audience to stand up and give him a hug...twice. It was all very bizarre.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T03:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T03:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did the Scotus thing last year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T03:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T03:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Likewise bizarre.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T03:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T03:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know about you, but I generally find these positions a lot more respectable when I'm arguing with a person who actually holds then I find them in themselves.<br />Although, most of the time the argument only proceeds dialectically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22293" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T05:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T05:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vZFAlFT1BA<br />Thomas Quasthoff - R. Strauss, Die schweigsame Frau: "Wie schön ist doch...<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />September 26 at 4:13am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Joshua Kenz Sorry I was busy giving a bit of righteous indignation elsewhere over silly protestantized Catholics trying to claim a protestant ecclesialogy (as if those not in the Church can be said to be actual members of the Body of Christ...hello, whole visible reality of that Body and the inability to distinguish the visible from the Body, e.g. in LG.....but the decree of commemorating the reformation said we are in the same body, so I am the dissident....)<br />If you think trying to argue with a Scotus is bad, trying to argue with a "conservative" modernist is worse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22294" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T05:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T05:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, I don't buy that the popularity of epicureanism had much to do with it. First, while hedonist it is not hedonist in the way we use that term today, it advocates a certain simplicity in life. Second, it had already been popular it the time of Caesar, with Caesar himself having an affinity to it. Cicero opposed it, though most of his friends were Epicureans. Three, the decline and changing and mutating of Rome happened through many factors...economic, social, military. It is hard to attribute any philosophy as a cause even as only being a cause among many</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T05:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T05:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, I have a similar experience, typically. Sadly, this lecture I went to on the metaphysical errors of Christopher West was not one of those times. <br />The lecture ultimately was slanderous and calumnious of West. His lecture was a critique of West's work, but involved no quotations from West at all. <br />His response to my objections were dismissive and condescending (in a bad way).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22296" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T05:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T05:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am willing to talk to almost anyone and discuss with almost anyone as long as there is evident respect shown for me and the discussion at hand.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22297" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T06:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(95, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T06:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lendman I would agree with your sentiment there, with an addendum: I want someone who will actually say what he means and mean what he says. Even worse, sometimes, than someone using strawmen to attack you and the like, is the person who thinks dialogue means merely stating your varied views and leaving it at that...especially when it is a question of facts and the reaction to any challenge is to get extremely upset and stick fingers in your ears, but even worse to just ignore it with "oh we can agree to disagree"<br />I like some pugnacity. As long as the aim is truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22298" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T08:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T08:10:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">The lecturer got to troll Daniel Lendman, didn't have to quote his sources, and hugged women in the crowd. This personalism business sounds great so far. What's the problem again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22299" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T08:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T08:32:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua:<br />I answer that, This is the difference between the natural body of man and the Church's mystical body, that the members of the natural body are all together, and the members of the mystical are not all together--neither as regards their natural being, since the body of the Church is made up of the men who have been from the beginning of the world until its end--nor as regards their supernatural being, since, of those who are at any one time, some there are who are without grace, yet will afterwards obtain it, and some have it already. We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act; and this according to the triple class, of which the first is by faith, the second by the charity of this life, the third by the fruition of the life to come. Hence we must say that if we take the whole time of the world in general, Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ, as being no longer in potentiality to be united to Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22300" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T08:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T08:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you guys ever sleep?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22301" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T08:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T08:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's a personalist? Some kind of continental philosopher?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22302" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T08:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T08:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No. I've been here at "work" for over two hours now</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22303" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T08:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T08:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is your "work?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T09:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Rome fell. I think that's the way it was perceived at the time of the multiple sackings. But I know what you are saying. It was only mostly dead if that and the East lived. It was the end of an age though and the beginning of another</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22305" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T09:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T09:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd say "blue collar wage slave" but I'm technically management, and I'm salaried. But my collar is, in fact, blue</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22306" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T09:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T09:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">before facebook deleted my employment it said "indentured servant at the man"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T09:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T09:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FB fired you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22308" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T09:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T09:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope now it says "Former indentured servant at the man" I have no idea how this happened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22309" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T09:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T09:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Facebook knows you're management now. It will not allow you to falsely claim solidarity with the oppressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22310" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T09:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T09:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh I claim solidarity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22311" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T09:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was the best of threads, it was the worst of threads.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[pactatio Olisipiensis cencenda est.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon the thread I vowed revenge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">guillotine time?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T09:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T09:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hey Scott, when did you come back?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22316" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T09:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T09:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Last night at 11:52 PM. I had been on a blocking rampage then came to my senses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T09:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T09:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Scott = Cinna the poet]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22318" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T09:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T09:51:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't want to be Caesar anymore. After last night I think I need to be a republican.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not Casca. I was just upset by some of the discussion on the Immaculate Conception. But, you should buy this book. Poetry must be written for an interest. If you know how to use metaphor, you are on track as a poet; if you know how to use enthymeme, and if you can handle Scripture carefully, you can write devotional. I wrote this for the interest of the readers, and to sell. It is important to write to sell. This just means you are writing to an interest. If you are a pious theologian, you must also write to an interest. But anyway, this book is selling in the largest Catholic bookstore in the country, and other places. You should get a copy. It will have a positive impact on your life. I promise. It will delight and entertain and make you smile. It took several years to complete. I am a slow writer. The publisher asked me to write a botanical in honor of Our Lady, and I have also begun an epic about the experiences of a refugee in America.<br />https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...<br />Eastern Christian Publications<br />Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…<br />SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22320" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And because I'm teaching Federalist 51 again this morning, I can't resist: I simply do not see what others see when they give it what I take to be a careless read.<br />For the 1000th time, Madison in 51 is talking about preventing OPPRESSIVE and UNJUST majorities. He knows there will be majority opinion. He thinks the large republic will prevent BAD majority opinion and allow GOOD majority opinion to triumph.<br />This applies to religion as well. He has no problem with a religion that would be upheld by a majority if it wasn't oppressive and upheld the rights of conscience. He has his personal doubts over whether that is possible. Jefferson thinks that, far from getting rid of any religious majority, everyone will become unitarian. In neither case is there a rejection of the public good or an objective good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22321" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ wrong for 999th time </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22322" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T10:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">little 'r' republican, however</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I can't read the text for you. What you seek in it IS NOT THERE.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And it is strange to wish that it was there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ I am done. Let's not agree to not disagree for a change. (First step towards Madisonian supermajority indifferentism )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22326" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, we are arranging your resignation </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22327" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What you are all arguing is that because they didn't ban Catholicism (which they would have done if they adopted your principles) they made it hard for Catholicism to ever take root and made us all moral relativists.<br />But not a single one of these people were relativists. Nor were the laws and culture of the land. For well over a century.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22328" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">FACT: Madison never wrote a bestiary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ It seems that way, Matthew. What we are arguing are the moral consequences of the principles. That's a big difference. I understand the political reality in Madison's day. It isn't about "what should I have done". [Dang. I thought I was done.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22330" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's the first true thing I've heard about Madison on this thread, Scott. He did write about beasties though:<br />http://founders.archives.gov/...<br />Founders Online: Notes on Buffon’s Histoire naturelle, [completed ca. May 1786]<br />Notes on Buffon’s Histoire naturelle, [completed ca. May...<br />FOUNDERS.ARCHIVES.GOV</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why are some saying Federalist 51 is a shield against faction of the majority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the disconnect between reality on the ground and the refusal to speak of the actual circumstances and choice in front of these men writing to persuade people in the midst of those set circumstances on the one hand, and these so called principles on the other, is an enormous part of the problem, and refusal to address it will forever make your position look silly.<br />But I still want to see where Madison rejects the notion that there is an objective good. The entirety of 10 and 51 DEPEND UPON THE IDEA THAT THERE IS ONE. OTHERWISE, HE WOULD NOT HAVE CARED ABOUT UNJUST AND OPPRESSIVE MAJORITY TYRANNY IN DEMOCRACY, WHICH HE WAS TRYING TO STOP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here, let's read some relativism from Fed 51, shall we?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22334" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the INJUSTICE of the other part"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ No, yours is the disconnect. The realty is that society has embraced a demand that all be tolerant of all views and morality. This is the reality. Why is that? [It's an inquiry; not about skewering Madison though there is that temptation because you want to find someone that is responsible.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madison and Washington had an interest. The word interest may have been Washington's favorite word. Madison had an interest in forming a union and protecting it against factions. That is his subject and interest. His subject is the smaller faction, and forming the union amidst an onslaught of small factions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22337" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"There are but two methods of providing against this EVIL"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ Getting in that top 10 percentile on your status?<br />https://www.facebook.com/matth.../posts/10152684071056508...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22339" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"This view of the subject must particularly recommend a proper federal system to all the sincere and considerate friends of republican government, since it shows that in exact proportion as the territory of the Union may be formed into more circumscribed Confederacies, or States OPPRESSIVE combinations of a majority will be facilitated"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"JUSTICE is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit. In a society under the forms of which the stronger FACTION can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the VIOLENCE of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as themselves; so, in the former state, will the more powerful factions or parties be gradnally induced, by a like motive, to wish for a government which will protect all parties, the weaker as well as the more powerful."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22341" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T10:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew people weren't saying that Maddison is himself a relativist (at least I don't remember them saying that), but rather that he follows the Enlightenment thinkers in trying to turn the attention of political life away from concern with the last end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"States OPPRESSIVE combinations of a majority will be facilitated"... this is a smaller faction. States are a smaller faction, not a majority faction or tyranny of majority.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22343" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"In the extended republic of the United States, and among the great variety of interests, parties, and sects which it embraces, A COALITION OF A MAJORITY OF THE WHOLE SOCIETY COULD SELDOM TAKE PLACE...[WAIT FOR IT]...ON ANY OTHER PRINCIPLES THAN THOSE OF JUSTICE AND THE GENERAL GOOD..."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Please explain this passage to me. No objective good?!? An objective good underlies the argument of both Fed 10 and 51.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And no one will answer my question - how would any philosopher or Pope want the federal government to deal with man's last end, as all agree that as you extend the sphere the purposes get thinner and more basic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think he means in the same way Hobbes "rejected" Aristotle's summum bonum... but Hobbes did not really reject this, neither does Madison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22347" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T10:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So yeah, he is concerned with what is objectively good, but he wants to agree to disagree about the highest good/final end.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ You want me to read. And explain. I only make assertions (which has been sufficiently proven). </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund: Bond was indeed arguing, and has said repeatedly, that Madison did not hold to an objective good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ indeed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T10:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T10:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a misunderstanding of Bond.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ no. Bond said that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Repeatedly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madison, it seems, clearly, views happiness as man's final end. He just does not call it beatitude as St. Thomas does in his book about Kings. Madison was not eyeing a Catholic monarchial reign like some do today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T10:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever. He wouldn't have to to make his point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22356" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does Madison mean by "justice", by "general good", by "common good". This was the argument that Bond was making. I have not been rereading nothing excepts quotes and links posts. (Truth is it's not of interest.) But Matthew will make me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22357" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As to the agree to disagree business, again, what do you think the federal government should have done (the state governments ALREADY HAD established religions)?!?<br />Silence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22358" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did read loooooots on this. It's just been a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22359" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There was an OBVIOUS reason to agree to disagree - multiple obvious reasons - when it came to the federal government.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO, Matthew. It's not what *should* they have done. It's what the f. can we do now. That's the point of the inquiry and to gain interlechual clarity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's time to write in the manner of GKC: "It is not that Democracy has never tried Catholicism; it is that Catholicism has never tried democracy!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">consequences of his principles?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Neither Bond NOR I will respond to the "what should they have done". LIS it's not really about skewering Madison (and I have defended him at times). That's water under the bridge. It's trying to understand our particular circumstances and what is the idea, the practical, and the possible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22364" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't even matter what Madison means by justice and the general good - the terms will be defined by people deliberating throughout the nation about matters of policy.<br />Would putting Aristotlian definitions into the Constitution have served a purpose?<br />Read the state constitutions - they did this to some extent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madison is trying to form a just union, in the face of a confederacy of factions. He succeeded in a way that Catholics are free to practice their faith. The greater tragedy is that Catholics do not know their faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22366" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHat Bethea? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22367" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia. At least spell it write.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22368" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you want to understand our circumstances but don't want to deal with circumstances - call me confused.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22369" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the last time I am going to ask. It is Chesterton Friday. Please try to write your sentences in the manner of GK!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22370" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's time to write in the manner of GKC: "It is not that Democracy has never tried Catholicism; it is that Catholicism has never tried democracy!" ----- I disagree with GKC. He never left his anarchism. Moreover, his enthusiasm for democracy rested on his faith in rural peasantry which we have no more. Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22371" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I disagree with GK too, but at least it's fun to try to sound like him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22372" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T10:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You want to talk about what we can do now - bit you don't want to deal with what you can when the majority disagrees with you?!? Bwhahaha...<br />You will fail in this country. Because you don't understand Madison, in part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22373" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"understand circumstances" does not mean understanding the particular circumstances at the Founding ----- or I should say thinking about how they should have done it differently at that time. Certainly an awareness of those circumstances some of which obtain today is necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22375" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T10:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">perpetual revolution. it's the only way<br />Let's get a five year plan together</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22376" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think politically anything can be done, but I have engaged politically in the past (though not to the extant of Scott).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">perpetual revolution = what we have, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T10:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope. it is waaaay too static</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">change, change, change. nothing but constant revolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22380" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think some people are upset because the majority in America is not Catholic. They think it is wrong that America was not established as a Catholic monarchy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I certainly hope that was addressed to John and not me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22382" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But America was established for Catholicism to succeed and be able to persuade.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22383" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T10:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T10:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was just thrown out there generally, but not to you. This is a question you have to wonder about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T10:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T10:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Matthew, I do understand how the mechanisms work (per the Founding and really).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22385" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">SO WRONG: "But America was established for Catholicism to succeed and be able to persuade." It was not, Scott. Are you saying God providentially provide for the Founding for the liberty and exultation of the Church? What is your claim?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, it would be good for me if you could explain your position a bit more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22387" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew Bond has replied to your objections multiple times. It's not that Maddison says "oh shoot w've got multiple religions, therefore we can't establish religion, shoot" he says "oh yes, in the union there are so many religious sects that none of them will ever be able to opress the others, yes!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond: are you the Bond that I visited in Chicago as a child during a terrible heat-wave? Or was that someone else?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22389" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Religious freedom protects the Catholic Faith in America. There is no provision in the Constitution, no law, which restricts the Faith. There is no hindrance in our law preventing well-informed Catholics from running our country with virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But for the sake of clarity, John Ruplinger, what is your position? I have lost it in the weeds.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22391" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:04:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm all for piety toward one's country as a kind of filial piety, but why are you people all so against piety toward the middle ages? Aren't we children of the middle ages too?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think any amount of explanation can help, Scott. I do recommend Bond's arguments here. He says it better than I.<br />https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152543773981508<br />Matthew J. Peterson<br />A sure sign of a corrupt era: lots of Senators in the mix for the Presidency. The reason only 16 have been elected President thus far?<br />By virtue of their office...<br />See More</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">can we understand the founding in terms of religious dissidents setting up their own theocratic states? Is that possible?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My position Scott is that God did not inspire the Founding so that Catholics could persuade the conversion others en route to the establishment of a confessional state.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22395" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not necessarily see Hobbes and Bacon and Newton as departures from the Middle Ages. They are just different. They do a different thing. They did not kill the truths of all of the glory of Christendom. These truths are still with us. We can still exercise them in this democracy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22396" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It *is* awesome that there are so many factions that we can't oppress one another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you John. What is a confessional state exactly; is this one which is set up around the Sacraments?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The THREAD unites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, filial piety to the Middle Ages? Why not Filial piety to the Roman Empire? Why not filial piety to the Stone age? That's extended the definition too far to have any meaning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22400" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew Reiser" data-date="2014-09-26T11:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew Reiser at 2014-09-26T11:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia Well, Massachusetts was essentially a theocracy in it's formative colonial years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22401" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Protestants think that God founded the US for them to controI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political THREADS which have connected them with another...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22403" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just as Spaceman Jeffrey extends the definition of persecution to "not having a Catholic monarchy"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22404" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the American founding provides the "free space" of society within which w can act</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ashman, we do not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which is why they're going to boycott conservatives who are gay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22407" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">WRONG: " Just as Spaceman Jeffrey extends the definition of persecution to "not having a Catholic monarchy""</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, I know that's my point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He totally did that last night, John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22410" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"free" space so long as you adhere to certain religious doctrines. Y'all need to read Murray to see the problems Catholics face in our culture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22411" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not that we can't criticize the founding. Which I am by advocating perpetual revolution!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22412" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, he didn't specify that it had to be a monarchy. Persecution is Catholicism not being the established state church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22413" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're reminding me just how right Bond is (regardless of whether we speak of Madison as the source of the problem --- that question can be dropped and his argument still stands).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22414" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is not a whole lot of basis in the Federalist papers or in the founding documents that supports the idea that Catholicism was to be suppressed in America. The tragedy is not there. It's in the fact that Catholics do not know their Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22415" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael-- perpetual revolution goes against the first good of government, peace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22416" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:13:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew above you wrote «The high Middle Ages failed. Centuries of fighting for power against the impressive state led to covering state power. This led to the abominable corruption of the Church, replete with wicked Popes, and this led to the reformation and the "enlightenment".»<br />Can we at least admit that this is a highly simplistic and contentious interpretation of the High Middle Ages? In one sense they were certainly a failure—they came to an end. But was their decline and fall caused by subordination of the temporal to the spiritual? Note that the popes who aggressively pushed the classical integralist position (distinction of two swords, subordination of the temporal to the spiritual), from St Gregory VII to Boniface VIII, were mostly good guys, morally upright. The worst popes come later when that model has been practically abandoned under the pressure of the forces that brought the middle ages to an end—French nationalism, revival of Italian city states, decline of the emperor's power outside of Germany, increase of trade, usury etc. It is in the Rennaisaince that you get the worst popes, and that was because the papal states and been integrated into the political system in a way directly contrary to Gregory VII's model...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22417" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ Don't remember that, but I missed that part of the discussion. Samantha 3 up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no it doesn't<br />#revolutiongnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it's a true revolution, there's blood in the streets, man</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22420" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Catholicism were the state religion in America, imagine what this would do to our entertainment industry?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22421" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha/Caesar: I thought we were all for piety toward the Roman Empire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22422" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can have a bloodless revolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22423" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not Caesar anymore. I'm a republican! I don't really want to be Brutus, though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22424" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, he did not. You have made no attempt to understand the position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22425" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"centuries of fighting against the IMPRESSIVe state" --- Matthew is really a closet Monarchist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22426" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(66, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And don't get me wrong, I know that there is always an element of illusion in looking to the past for models. Link #22,001: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../all-times-are-bad.../<br />All Times Are Bad Times<br />Gloriosus apparuisti inter principes Austriae, sancte Leopolde, ideo diadema suscepisti de manu Domini; ora...<br />SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22427" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it is natural to think that the time in which one lives is the worst of all (and one is usually right).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22428" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(72, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes! All times are bad time! That's what I was saying last night!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22429" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, I certainly did make an attempt. It's possible it was impaired by whiskey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22430" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why "conservatism" is a dead end we can't go back. That's why we've got to out-liberal the liberals and come around on the other side</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reposting Pater Edmund: "It is in the Rennaisaince that you get the worst popes, and that was because the papal states and been integrated into the political system in a way directly contrary to Gregory VII's model..." <<<< this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Middle Ages was the glory of Christendom, there is no doubt. But with the rise of Britannia in the 16th C, it was just not possible to govern a civilized world through bishopric dynasties and Catholic monarchies. So we have freedom of religion. It is perfect for the growth of the Faith. Why do you need a Catholic King?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just reading Peter Handke's book on Serbia: everyone is so misunderstood!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22434" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Middle Ages didn't have indoor plumbing<br />QED</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22435" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#crapgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater: "But it is natural to think that the time in which one lives is the worst of all (and one is usually right)". <<<<< relativist --- I do think I can make that argument. But it is too huge for the thread. We have truly grave ills today when the very foundation upon which any state is built is being undermined.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or vaccines, or antibiotics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or novocaine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22439" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes they did have indoor plumbing. Check out the toilets in Stift Zwettl (one of our daughter houses).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have a King in heaven, and happiness as our end in this democracy. Why complain about the food?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But fair enough about vaccines.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22442" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, sure, *your* people had indoor plumbing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22443" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">*my* people wouldn't have</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Clean drinking water!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which Pater's people would not have had</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It's in the fact that Catholics do not know their Faith."<br />PossibIy true, but protestant don't seem to have any cIue who Geesus was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22447" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basic literacy for the masses!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have Ietters missing on my qeyboard...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">novocaine, vaccines, antibiotics, indoor plumbing: overrated. Clean water and sanitation not so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Basic literacy" --- YOU KID!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22451" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Listen man, there are plenty of uninformed Catholics and Protestants. We could trade insults with one another about whose sect has done a worse job all day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22452" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">that would push us close to 30k</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22453" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most people in this country know how to read. Most people in the middle ages did not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Kansas, you can get 5 acres and 5,000 square feet for under $250,000. That's far less than a bishop got during the Middle Ages.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We all agree that _in some respects_ our age is better than previous ages. But not many. Literacy for the masses is a mixed blessing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22456" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">uuuuuugh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Protestantism is a way of uniting peopIe to controI the state ostensibIy for seIf preservation.<br />CathoIicism has reverted bacq cIoser to its roots in the teachings of Christ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22458" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love you, Pater, but no, it's not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The masses by nature are a mixed bag.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22460" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I was joking.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Literacy ===== waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overrated (as you mean it)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The ability to read is over-rated???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, the issue for me is what Protestants are doing to the Tea Party. Or we can caII them socio-cons to avoid insuIting protestants, but the Venn diagram is practicaIIy a circIe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not though. What do you mean by read? And by what grade ought basic literacy be obtained? (Medieval DID NOT require literacy to function in society at a high level. And there was no printing press.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">«The medieval synthesis had all kind of weaknesses and internal contradictions, but it had a what Luigi Giusani calls “a unitary mentality.” It had “a conception of God as pertinent to all aspects of life, underlying every human experience excluding none.”<br />"In this sense, then, the Middle Ages are not to be considered a more interesting epoch than others just because at that time everyone was more devout or capable of behaving in a less morally reproachable way. No, it was more interesting, because it was characterized by a unitary mentality."»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22467" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-26T11:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Middle Ages had beer. No water necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Link #2,002: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../tarnishing-the.../<br />Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth<br />The eccentric French footballer Nicolas Anelka-- once of Arsenal, Real Madrid, Chelsea etc., now of West West...<br />SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Today, of course, basic literacy is needed. But by what grade should one have achieved basic literacy to be a competant plumber and make 60k per year?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In America, supporting individual prosperity and the pursuit of happiness is a way support the union. The union is not supported by putting down true freedoms. If a factious majority of people-pursuing-happiness rose up, they would be invited to join the union that already exists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22471" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, the Venn Diagram isn't even close to a circle. None of the evangelicals I spend time with are remotely Tea Partiers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22472" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without literacy, how are the future generations to read tNET?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(On balance, I would probably have to admit that Protestants have a better record on catechesis, btw).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22474" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Literally all the Tea Partiers I know are Catholic, as it happens</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22475" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ for realz?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22476" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In America, if a factious majority of Catholics rose up pursuing the virtue of true devotion, they would be invited to join the union and to keep on keeping on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think The Thread should do a line by line reading of Giles of Rome: http://amzn.com/0231128037<br />Giles of Rome's On Ecclesiastical Power: A Medieval Theory of World Government...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22478" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, John, the fact that there was nothing for people to read in the Middle Ages is an argument against the supposed greatness of the middle ages, not an argument against the importance of literacy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, define "true freedom". What is liberty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22480" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh my goodness this is going too fast</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22481" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha - Curious if they're advocating anti-immigrant stances, pro-drug wars and aII of that, or if they're advocating smaII government, Iow taxes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some are quite anti-immigrant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22483" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really think that liberal education is for the few (both by desire and competence). And the ancients and medievals read aloud.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22484" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know about the drug war aspect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22485" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In today's society of course it is necessary.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22486" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the difference betweening being a Tea Party adherent or trying to higacq it for sociaI engineering.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's hard to know whom you mean when you say "John," Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22488" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22489" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reminds me of answering the dorm phone and hearing someone say "can I speak with John?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is "John"? --- (actually I follow just fine)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22491" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Comments on Medievals = Ruplinger. Comments on Tea Party = Ashman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22492" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(180, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ashman, I don't really know much about what's going on in the Tea Party. I'm not that interested, to be honest. But I do know a lot of intelligent evangelicals and none of them are Tea Partiers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22493" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(28, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To conced e to Samantha, NationaI Organization for Marriage is run by a CathoIic. Very disappointing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only Tea Partiers I know are Catholic, too. That's interesting. I thought there would be more Protestants. (Just proves Bond's point that Catholics have drunk the Madison koolaid more deeply than the protties.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My point is how things spin over time. Protestants came to escape bad government and formed a government that tread IightIy and avoided intermingIng. That no Ionger hoIds true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22496" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Tea Party" is so unCatholic. I need to start the "Beer party": Plank 1 -- medieval beer purity standards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22497" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T11:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Dorm phones"--showing your age there, Pater Edmund.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I'm sure there are lots of Protestants in it, too. I just don't know them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CathoIic Churches have been doing yeoman's worq in supporting immigrants, even if immigration is now a "sin" somehow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sets Protestants on fire usuaIIy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22501" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Probably the difference between us is that John Ashman knows Protestants through political movements, and I know them through church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22502" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there is a huge difference in the teachings between a priest and a minister for the most part. Though..FWIW, the minister for my first wedding was a Iesbian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">either way, american reIigion and poIitics is a FUBAR.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, I would define true freedom and liberty as knowing, loving and serving God in this world with an alacrity of fully-informed devotion, and forever in the next. This, I think, is in line with St. Thomas' political writings which refer to beatitude as being the end of the Catholic King. In America, these freedoms so-defined are protected and guaranteed and are in no way limited by the government. Our government, in no way, forces any individual to deny any aspect of this freedom. Only in rare circumstances has this ever happened. But in those circumstances, changes have been made. Our government in no way persecutes Catholics. In fact, our government does not even tax the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anybody at any of the churches I have been a part of hated immigration (illegal or otherwise), I didn't know about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">«What does one "know," when involvement is nearly always only [tele-] visual involvement? What does one know, when all the "network" and "online" produces only knowing about, without that real knowledge that only comes from learning, looking and learning. What does one know he sees not the thing but an image of the thing, or in TV news an abbreviation of an image, or online the abbreviation of an abbreviation?» – Peter Handke, Justice for Serbia</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22507" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's funny how everything I read at the moment appears as a commentary on The Neverending Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, how does one prevent the confusion between the liberty you have defined and liberty as the freedom to believe and expresswhatever one wants?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I know I link too much, but I would be interested in your opinion on this: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../tarnishing-the.../<br />Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth<br />The eccentric French footballer Nicolas Anelka-- once of Arsenal, Real Madrid, Chelsea etc., now of West West...<br />SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://mashable.com/.../the-evangelical-movement-against.../<br />The Evangelical Crusade Against Immigration<br />The Evangelical faction against immigration<br />MASHABLE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22511" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We hold this thread to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ But is liberty here the same as you defined above?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22513" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T11:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(82, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T11:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, I have to tend my sick children now, but I'll read it in a bit and get back to you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, the liberty you and I have defined is self-evident. Liberty to believe whatever one wants is not self-evident, it was not what the Founders meant, but is the cause of faction, in the Bible and in government.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are right John, I think, it is a bit different in some regards; but it is the same in some regard, and consistent with in every way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22516" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">liberty is not the same as license.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22517" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Define liberty, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(36, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Blessings on the sick children. I'll think of them at vespers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">freedom from external compulsion - working definition, subject to revision</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My 16 year old daughter seems to think liberty is her driver's licence. (jk)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iiberty is the fuII reaIization of naturaI rights.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liberty is "let my people go, so they can worship the true God."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22523" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Religious liberty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Define religious liberty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22525" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">freedom to be wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Per Beitia, all law is contrary to liberty; liberty = license + [His pre-revised definition]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22527" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T11:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">A question for The Thread from Goodreads before I leave for Vespers: «We will be interviewing Marilynne Robinson about her new book, Lila, for the October Newsletter. Do you have any questions for the author about her previous work, her new book, her writing habits, her characters, etc.? <br />Respond to this message with your question! We'll include a few of the most interesting ones in our interview.»<br />Suggest some questions Thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure!<br />#perpetualrevolutiongnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Every government ceIebrates their Iast revoIution. None want another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22530" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T11:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and that ^ my friends, is the problem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22531" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Liberty, the highest of natural endowments, being the portion only of intellectual or rational natures, confers on man this dignity - that he is "in the hand of his counsel" and has power over his actions. But the manner in which such dignity is exercised is of the greatest moment, inasmuch as on the use that is made of liberty the highest good and the greatest evil alike depend."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Iiberty. you're not using it right"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22533" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T11:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T11:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There's nothing more dangerous than perpetuaI revoIution, except, perhaps, perpetuaI evoIution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">5. Liberty, then, as We have said, belongs only to those who have the gift of reason or intelligence. Considered as to its nature, it is the faculty of choosing means fitted for the end proposed, for he is master of his actions who can choose one thing out of many. Now, since everything chosen as a means is viewed as good or useful, and since good, as such, is the proper object of our desire, it follows that freedom of choice is a property of the will, or, rather, is identical with the will in so far as it has in its action the faculty of choice. But the will cannot proceed to act until it is enlightened by the knowledge possessed by the intellect. In other words, the good wished by the will is necessarily good in so far as it is known by the intellect; and this the more, because in all voluntary acts choice is subsequent to a judgment upon the truth of the good presented, declaring to which good preference should be given. No sensible man can doubt that judgment is an act of reason, not of the will. The end, or object, both of the rational will and of its liberty is that good only which is in conformity with reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T11:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T11:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">6. Since, however, both these faculties are imperfect, it is possible, as is often seen, that the reason should propose something which is not really good, but which has the appearance of good, and that the will should choose accordingly. For, as the possibility of error, and actual error, are defects of the mind and attest its imperfection, so the pursuit of what has a false appearance of good, though a proof of our freedom, just as a disease is a proof of our vitality, implies defect in human liberty. The will also, simply because of its dependence on the reason, no sooner desires anything contrary thereto than it abuses its freedom of choice and corrupts its very essence. Thus it is that the infinitely perfect God, although supremely free, because of the supremacy of His intellect and of His essential goodness, nevertheless cannot choose evil; neither can the angels and saints, who enjoy the beatific vision. St. Augustine and others urged most admirably against the Pelagians that, if the possibility of deflection from good belonged to the essence or perfection of liberty, then God, Jesus Christ, and the angels and saints, who have not this power, would have no liberty at all, or would have less liberty than man has in his state of pilgrimage and imperfection. This subject is often discussed by the Angelic Doctor in his demonstration that the possibility of sinning is not freedom, but slavery. It will suffice to quote his subtle commentary on the words of our Lord: "Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin."(3) "Everything," he says, "is that which belongs to it a naturally. When, therefore, it acts through a power outside itself, it does not act of itself, but through another, that is, as a slave. But man is by nature rational. When, therefore, he acts according to reason, he acts of himself and according to his free will; and this is liberty. Whereas, when he sins, he acts in opposition to reason, is moved by another, and is the victim of foreign misapprehensions. Therefore, `Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin.' "(4) Even the heathen philosophers clearly recognized this truth, especially they who held that the wise man alone is free; and by the term "wise man" was meant, as is well known, the man trained to live in accordance with his nature, that is, in justice and virtue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Having discovered seIf-evident truths, we must now improve them"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ We have no agreement on the thread (of relatively like minded folks) as to what is liberty or religious liberty. (Self-evident? not so much. certainly not today. Cf. John C. Murray's collection "We Hold These Truths". He saw the problem of lack of consensus, but didn't see others.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's such a shame that the onIy way to create a free, naturaI rights society is to vioIentIy impose it on the masses who wish to controI others by their own nature.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ReIigious Iiberty is a subset of naturaI rights. your right to it ends at the rights of others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22540" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had a great e-maiI exchange with a professor of Iaw (one of Mathew Matthew J. Peterson's FBFs coincidentaIIy) and I had to expIain how naturaI rights per the 9th and 10th Amdendment incIudes everyone, not citizens onIy. If there's one thing that needs to be taught properIy in coIIege, it is naturaI rights. With that, we soIve everything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the basis for natural rights, John? And how are they discovered?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22542" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T12:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T12:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">through the will of the soviet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22543" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">...and his moustache.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sentience is the basis for naturaI rights, it's Iiqe an easter egg Ieft for the brain to discover. It is fundamentaI because it is unassaIabIe. PeopIe try to modify it but with no grounds and no reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The probIem is the instinct to controI others for seifish benefit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22546" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T12:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T12:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_22547" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It would seem more reasonable to me that having factions of multiple religions would be better than a single state mandated religion. First of all, I have never met two people that believe the same thing (to the same degree) including priests, bishops and cardinals. As for laity, Nancy Pepsi is "catholic". What good has her faith done except to use it as a weak argument with "constituents" that have nothing else in common with her. I would rather be in a nation of Hindus Buddhists and Protestants all jumbled together and the "good" coming out of them commonly. If there are bad laws, give it 50 years and they will be overthrown.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22548" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T12:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey Kennedys are catholic, right? that sure helps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there are bad Iaws, give it 50 years and they wiII be 10 times as expensive as imagined, cause bigger probIems than that which it seeqed to fix and require perpetuaI tweaqing to maintain an apperance of functionaiity. It wiII probabIy not be overthrown.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22550" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Qennedies are Cathoiic Iiqe I'm Fin'g Superman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia is a fuhrer in infancy. beware -- just saying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe it is soviet</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22553" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">His worship of StaIin is seIf-evident.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's aII in the 'stache.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22555" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:28:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My daughter once asked me how an interview I had went. I told her it went really well but they apologized that did not have enough budget to buy me. <br />She responded "I didn't think you were allowed to buy people anymore."<br />"You can, but only for limited periods of time."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22556" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger: Religious liberty is the freedom to know, love and worship God and to pursue man's highest end which is the pursuit of eternal happiness (beatitude). In the Founding Documents, we see reference to the right to the pursuit of happiness. In the other section of rights, there is a right to religious freedom. The rights of the Bill of Rights could have been placed along with the self-evident rights in the Declaration. But they weren't. Madison and Patrick Henry came together to fight hard for the Bill of Rights, to ensure the Union would not usurp individual rights, but support them instead.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22557" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">On both sides of the spectrum, having a lax catholic ruler and would be just as bad as SSPX rule of law.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think good Catholic governance in America is a real possibility. We would have to think of what shape it would take and how it would come about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22559" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff wrote: "It would seem more reasonable to me that having factions of multiple religions would be better than a single state mandated religion. First of all, I have never met two people that believe the same thing (to the same degree) including priests, bishops and cardinals." BUT this is a consequence of our present confusion merely, the culmination of a false understanding of liberty. I completely agree (on the last sentence), Jeff. The lack of consensus is ubiquitous: nothing but divisions and sects of one. "Sects of one" is an exaggeration of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, the ambiguity is clear in what you say. We have two meanings of happiness and religious liberty here: " [1] Religious liberty is the freedom to know, love and worship God and to pursue man's highest end which is the pursuit of eternal happiness (beatitude). In the Founding Documents, we see reference to [2] the right to the pursuit of happiness. In the other section of rights, there is a right to religious freedom."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John R, thus having sects agree is stronger since the common good they each seek together is more universal, or at least less accidental</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22562" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most Catholics and most Americas do agree on many of the biggest and most important issues. Everyone uses these things to form unity and quell faction. Madison did this too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22563" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No they don't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22564" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most Catholics believe in God. Most Americans believe in God. Yes, they do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ I revised, Jeff. We only agree on the last statement. Compromised majorities are very problematic to me (or rather majorities formed by compromise). They are stronger only meaning more effectual. However, the adherents of them adhere to them more weakly (unless we speak of supermajorities like the adherence to the belief in modern "religious liberty".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22566" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Tea Party doesn't even agree with itseif.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which issues are biggest and most important?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22568" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most peopIe do NOT beIieve in God. If they did they wouId be scared out of their sqin to do the things they do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22569" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Believe, Scott, in what "god"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God has as much reIevance as the Tooth Fairy to most "beIievers". I don't pretend to beIieve in something that powerfuI. It saves my sanity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22571" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, "thus having sects agree is stronger since the common good they each seek together is more universal, or at least less accidental" aren't you equivocating on "universal"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22572" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's Iiqe drinqing O'DouI's and saying "I Iove beer". No you don't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, we believe in the one true God. The Bill of rights protects the right to exercise religion freely. This is all it says really. But this is enough. This is all it needs to say, to align the self-evident right of happiness with the full and free exercise of the Catholic Faith. Our history as a nation shows that the freedom of Catholics to exercise their Faith has in no way been put down. In fact, Catholics can even run for the presidency. Now is not that something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ not self evident. That's just an assertion. And you are playing, Scott, with two definitions of "happiness". Which is the self-evident one?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22575" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They held those truths to be self-evident. And so do we. I take them at their word. The only tragedy here is that Americans born in Canada cannot become President, even Canadians born on the southern tip of Vancouver Island, which is several miles south of most of the US/Canadian border.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seif evident was nothing more than a Iiterary fIourish to mean "IogicaI" and "unassaiIabIe"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ Scott, you do. I don't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it were obvious, it wouIdn't have required Iogic or reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is wrong with weak adherence to compromise? The goods of each state are different, the needs of the people are different agreement and consent are commodities of trade. Especially on issues of low relevance. Southern California is in drought. What does the other states care of their needs? Are they offering to redirect a river in aid?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AGAIN, Scott. Another ambiguity. The "one true God" or some other god?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22581" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do. Honestly. I will respect that you do not. But every political endeavor begins with self-evident first principles. That is the nature of politics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22582" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, if you can't equivocate on universal, then you aren't equivocating hard enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22583" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Like Ashman said, adherence to compromise is like calling bud light beer and saying "I love beer", when it's not even made from barley. Is the "common good" (the party planks) really a common good in any way anymore, Jeff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22584" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The God of Nature and Nature's God. It is the one, true God, and you are being a silly billy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22585" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^^ totally wrong, Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nature's god [of Deists] is not the one true God we as Catholics profess belief in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">0 is what peopIe actuaIIy gnow about god and infinity is what they don't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22588" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Saying someone is totally wrong, my silly friend, is not being reasonable in conversation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22589" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Saying the Founders professed belief in the one True God is silly. AND totally WRONG.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22590" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BeIief sits weII beIow reason, Iogic, science as a way to deaI with others. BeIief is a good way to handIe yourseIf.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^mere assertion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The God of Aristotle is the same God of St. Thomas. It's just that Thomas had more revelation and more Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If God didn't exist, Man wouId create him to fiII the void.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22594" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ big if.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, are you definitively saying that the Founding Fathers who wrote of the God of nature were really speaking of pie in the sky and not really God the true Creator? Please explain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22596" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no scientific evidence. I wouId presume that God wouId be pretty obvious with an overwheIming presence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, they were speaqing in generaIities, they were not stating that there is onIy one God and he's the onIy one of whom they are speaqing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Pie in the sky". Where did I say that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22599" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Ashman, that would leave nothing for belief. But the evidence is convincing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Americans had their fiII of the "one true God" phiIosophy and tyranny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22601" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ tyranny? philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I do agree, Mr. Ashman, that they seem to have had enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22603" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it were convincing, I'd be convinced. BeIief is not evidence. Things you don't understand aren't evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22604" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's one of the argumnents that Dr. Bond and I were trying to make.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22605" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the hands of humans, "one true God" has been aImost compIeteIy associated with tyranny. So they spoqe around it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I'm just asking if you think the Founder's "God of nature" is a fabrication and in no way the real Creator, but something else? Can you give me a yes or a no? St. Thomas said Aristotle and he were talking about the same God. The Church teaches in Her Dogma it is the same God: The God known by reason (in part) is the same God revealed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22607" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But there are proofs for the existence of God, Mr. Ashman. These are not proofs of the existence of a Triune God -- that requires Faith. But Faith is founded on the authority of the one revealing and the miracles are the signs of the truth of that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"in Her Dogma"? She teaches that the Founders god is our God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If there were proofs, I'd be convinced.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22610" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even the best proof of anything does not necessarily lead to conviction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God is a great idea, badIy run.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Church teaches that the God known by reason, which the philosophers knew existed by reason, is the same God. Are you willing to answer my question, John Ruplinger? Are you saying the God of the Founders, is not the same God as the God of Catholics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you can see why weaq proof doesn't go very far on many of us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T12:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T12:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ Founders "god" is not our God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22615" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T12:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why aren't the Romans correct? Or the Greeqs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22616" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T12:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T12:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But John R. Even people who love beer don't love the same qualities. But they profess the same love. And compromise the other to exist and be enjoyed as well. There is no loss in this compromise. However, beer purity laws would be a true compromise, against the pumpkin beer lovers. But beer purity laws are not for the common good but the private good of the narrowly beer minded.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22617" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bud Light isn't even beer though. It's made from fricken CORN and RICE. LIS the compromise is tasteless and lacks conviction even in those who still make that compromise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22618" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Founders God is a generaI statement aImost Iiqe "fiII in the _____"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, if the "God of Nature" of the Founders is not the same God as our God, then what or who is it? Are you willing to answer this question?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ nope. I haven't studied the Deists enough, but I do have an idea.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CouId be the same, couId be the same, because it was a generaIity, not a fixed conviction in the "one true God".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think it was a mere generality, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"God bIess you" <br />"You beIeve in God!!!"<br />"No, I, uh it's a convention"<br />"You said it!"<br />"SeriousIy, trying to be poIite with a common saying"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John and John, if the Founder's "God of Nature" is not the same God as a true believer, then why are the rights of the true believer protected by the right to religious freedom in the Bill of Rights that the Founders were willing to die for?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22625" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're free to beIieve in ApoIIo. If it were the one true God, there wouId be no need at aII for reiIgious freedom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22626" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ non sequitur. Not only that but the Bill of Rights were drawn up after the Revolution. (Scott)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22627" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T13:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The founders are decent moral relativists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The error seems not sufficiently eradicated, that the operations of the mind, as well as the acts of the body, are subject to the coercion of the laws. But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. If it be said, his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied on, reject it then, and be the stigma on him. Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man. It may fix him obstinately in his errors, but will not cure them. Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation. They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only. Had not the Roman government permitted free enquiry, Christianity could never have been introduced. Had not free enquiry been indulged, at the aera of the reformation, the corruptions of Christianity could not have been purged away. If it be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged. Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potatoe as an article of food." Thomas Gefferson.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22629" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That does not follow, which rhymes with Apollo. Believers of the one true God have been persecuted by factions from within and without for ever. Even from within the House of David.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22630" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ this, to Jeff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22631" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Some guy who wrote the DoI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A beIiever in the one true God wouId never maqe this statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22633" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ true (actually false -- many now have no problem with this statement, Mr. Ashman)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Gewish God and the Christian God are totaIIy different Gods.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22635" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">...need...new...qeyboard...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ 2 up. Depends. (another ambiguous expression)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gefferson beIieved that freedom created better reIigion. And he wrote his own BibIe for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You'd thinq God wouId get his reIigion right the first time. Not very infaIIibIe, this God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OR...humans are faIIibIe and can't be trusted with anything they say about God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22640" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T13:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My beer point.... You aren't making a compromise if you aren't making a sacrifice of yourself. This the bud light fan claims to love "beer". And the staunch catholic says "if it doesn't say Stone Arrogant Bastard, it's not allowed to call itself beer"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22641" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, Charles Carroll, the devout Roman Catholic Founding Father who signed the Declaration, in his own words, proves you scurrilous dogs are wrong. And you are so mangy I will not even share his words with you. That would be like throwing crumbs to the swine. I will make you go look it up. And I hope you like my references to dogs and swine... I through those in for dramatic effect alone. I mean no insult. I am very impressed with your dramatic abilities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And may the One true God, the God of our Founders, the God of Charles Carroll, and the God of the Pope of Rome, bless you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God of IsraeI and Mohammed....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22644" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God is aIways made in the image of His creators.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22645" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:13:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_22646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CathoIic God = God 2.0.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You can't argue with StaIin!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22648" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T13:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#PseudoGnosis form Lucky Jim on the Middle Ages: «As he approached the Common Room he thought briefly about the Middle Ages. Those who professed themselves unable to believe in the reality of human progress ought to cheer themselves up, as the students under examination had conceivably been cheered up, by a short study of the Middle Ages. The hydrogen bomb, the South African Government, Chiang Kai-shek, Senator McCarthy himself, would then seem a light price to pay for no longer being in the Middle Ages. Had people ever been as nasty, as self-indulgent, as dull, as miserable, as cocksure, as bad at art, as dismally ludicrous, or as wrong as they'd been in the Middle Age - Margaret's way of referring to the Middle Ages? He grinned at this last thought...»</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22649" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff: "And the staunch catholic says "if it doesn't say Stone Arrogant Bastard, it's not allowed to call itself beer"" <<<<<< straw man argument. German purity laws are very liberal (in the true sense ). They prevent the masses from confusing non-beer and beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, tNET kind of presupposes Christianity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is interesting. Do we have an atheist on tNET now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is anyone going to try to convert him?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22653" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">German purity laws are garbage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22654" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lots of my favorite beers wouldn't qualify as "beer"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22655" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund-- I did read your "Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth" article</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22656" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I liked it, right up til the last paragraph. ; )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22657" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ true 3 up</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22658" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^YOU WILL BE CAST INTO THE OUTER DARKNESS^</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22659" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it's a price I'm willing to pay, Samantha. We still can call the other things by names other than "beer".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No idea what tNET is MichaeI</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22661" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The The Neverending Thread" this thread</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22662" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ infidel (Not knowing tNET is like not knowing there is a God: self evident really.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22663" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">maybe I have to read Giusanni for the full argument, but the "unitary mentality" idea isn't very fleshed out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22664" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22665" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T13:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T13:20:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Having just finished vespers in our medieval Church, where monks have been praying vespers since the 12th century. Having just eaten supper in our refectory decorated with the portraits of medieval Austrian dukes and Hungarian kings, whose donations to the monastery literally still pay for the food we eat... It occurred to me that where we live might have something to do with our different judgements on piety toward the Middle Ages, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is a very good point, Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22667" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. And worse, I go to CHURCH. Atheist, in church. Every Sunday.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What? Why do you do that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22669" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, Catholic wife, or something?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22670" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We have a winner.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because if not, to heII and forever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Pater Edmund, since you pay such good attention to the objections, and present the pro-middle ages argument so briefly, I was more convinced of my own opinion after reading the post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If New Belgium wasn't allowed to call the Trippel beer, it probably wouldn't get made and sold.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ that is a completely decisive argument against garbage German beer purity laws</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22676" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-26T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-26T13:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Darn. #fail. I'm going to go see if they have any chocolate in the recreation room.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22677" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Obviously you've never had New Belgium's Trippel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't like the Belgian ales. Perhaps, we need to modify the German purity laws. All would be good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22679" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, it would have been fun if you were at the Congressional Convention in 1787. You could have asked the Founders what they meant by God. You could have also asked what they meant by "nature." Then you could report back to TNET, did they really mean the same thing as what we mean. It is too bad we cannot do that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22680" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^ we can though.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22681" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really don't have a modern caricature view of the middle ages, btw. I just think you Catholic revisionists revise too hard in the other direction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just read, Scott, what they meant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"revisionist" -- reduced to ad hominem argument, Samantha?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22684" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You guys have been ad homineming *me* for thousands of comments already!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22685" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not once. ever...... i don't think.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">trolling, yes. Ad feminam, no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22687" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T13:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, not you Jeff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I am anti revisionist .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, I don't think revisionist is necessarily an insult</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You want to revise the received wisdom about the Middle Ages. It's descriptive, not ad hominem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22692" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">My daughter Ioved beer as a 2 year oId. She puIIed an O'DouI's from the mini mart and so I bought it for her. The horrified Iooq she made when she tasted it was priceIess.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22693" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's until the history books get changed.... And Columbus is painted as a vicious conquistador.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22694" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha - you're a jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And IincoIn as the great emancipator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22696" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"the received wisdom" --- I object to your epistemic authority. And your equivocal use of the term "wisdom"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22697" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael, right that's the whole basis of our e-friendship, remember?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22698" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, you like to label people. Just returning the favor. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Founders meant "nature" when they said nature too. I'm sorry if that sounds seditious, or anti-Catholic, but that's just how I feel emotionally about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22700" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">an elephant never forgets.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22701" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You shouId see what he caIIs me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22702" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but was it a Newtonian deist clockwork nature? or the natural Aristotelian hylomorphic nature?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, my man, I have a poem for you!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Labels are helpful for mental sorting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22705" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">AIso for portraying fashion sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22706" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, the Founders were wrote in a very poIite manner and often used carefuIIy worded euphimisms and phrases to be as incIusive as possibIe and to avoid any obvious dismissaI of any group. <br />Again, freedom of reIigion wouIdn't be an issue if they thought everyone beIieved in the same thing or the same concept of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22707" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T13:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Labels are also important for understanding nutritional information<br />#caloriegnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22708" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see what you are saying, John, the founders were misleading everyone. Thanks for saving us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, they were unitfying us as best they couId.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">They caIIed sIave trade "importation" in order to avoid ruffIed feathers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22711" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anytime, Scott. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22712" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No poIitician has ever misIead anyone, ever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one has ever patronized anyone to get a favorabIe resuit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22714" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Euphemisms.....never happened.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When the founders spoke of "usurpations" they were not speaking of work place inequality. Thanks for clarifying all this for the nation. I feel we can all move forward, together, and united.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22716" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're weIcome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22717" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I continue to be amazed at how basically reasonable our Scottegrine sounds after returning from a massive implosion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22718" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe it's a Dr. Jekyll/ Mr. Hyde type situation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, like, the Hulk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22720" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T13:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">...... pretty simple really. Stay away from a few issues and it's all ok. Scott is the epistemic authority of tNET [Do I need to repost the rules of the cave?]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22721" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T13:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which carries with it enormous responsibility...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I have come down with trickygnosis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22723" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The difference between misIeading and poIite is that you are putting the truth in the nicest way possibIe when your wife says "am I getting fat". You don't deny the truth, you simpIy....put it in a nice box with a ribbon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T13:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the other person knows what you mean and everyone agrees to not dig deeper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22725" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T14:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T14:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Per way back: "Most people in this country know how to read. Most people in the middle ages did not."<br />I've heard from a respectable medievalist (Dr. Noone at CUA) that this is probably false: what used to be reported as "literacy" was being able to read/write Latin and not being able to read/write their native language. Noone seems confident that many or most people in the Middle Ages could read their native tongues.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22726" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, to be fair, most medieval languages are just dumbed down Latin.<br />French is what happens when Germans try to speak Latin</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22727" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When visigoths try tospeak Latin, it turns to spanish</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22728" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Try and speak???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22729" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To speak, whatevs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">fixed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(86, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed-- if that's true it's shockingly contrary to received wisdom. I don't suppose you know what he bases this on?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22734" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, most people where? In the cities?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22735" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why wouId someone read their native tongues in most cases? What wouId exist for them to read? Not much. If anything.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That seems true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22737" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what was written in the vernacular before 1300? drinking songs? Probably didn't have song books for those</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22738" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">All those happy, virtuous, literate peasants, reading books from their local library during their long holidays....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no printing press = less "received wisdom"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How wouId you even teach someone to read their Ianguage? with what books? As I understand it, it was probabIy priests and educated business peopIe and schoIars from outside that transIated spoken word into the Iatin aphabet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22741" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks for the flyby Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Eastern Europe didn't even have an aIphabet untiI the 800s.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22743" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dante wrote in the vernacular in about 1300. I imagine there was some precedent for it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22744" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get the picture. Of course, the period we are talking about is long and varied and it's easy to pick out the bright spots.<br />No one talks about massive prostitution problems, or widespread married priest problems, or widespread greedy monk problems, or the shameless corruption of politically powerful clergy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22745" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do. So shove it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">peasants had loooots more holidays. We get "labor" day if lucky</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22747" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">everyone remained spotless pure in their virtue until marriage too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22748" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know, I know.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Popes are infaIIbIe so no sins were committed by the church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why do I hate tNET? it makes me defend things I don't like defending.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22751" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But after all, giving concrete examples of high points in actual time and place is not necessary in these sorts of arguments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22752" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">#needsmorecharts</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22753" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T14:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, dude - unless it's an apology for that slanderous tripe you posted on my profile picture, I'm not really interested in anything you compose. Especially poetry-wise.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22754" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, the common good. <br />I believe it is best achieved when the fact that one wealthy billionaire has sexual relations with another it affects the welfare of millions of people they rule by virtue of their incestuously deficient genes and their disproportionate wealth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22755" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although, Wycliffe was trying to get the Bible into the common language in the 1300s, so there must have been at least a few more people who read English than Latin among the local Lollard populace</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22756" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">what kind of peasant gets a holiday, certainly not one farming. That's a 24/7 "job"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or vocation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahahaha</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22759" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But "most people" read and wrote it their common language? I don't know. I don't believe it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe he meant "most clerics?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22761" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">although even then...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In some times and places some scholars do make a strong claim they had a lot of holidays. Of course, they also had a lot of work to do keeping their living quarters and arrangements together.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22763" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where's Ed? Come back here and engage with my skepticism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are seasons in which farmers have less to do. And in some times and places they almost constitute a union you didn't want to piss off as a Lord.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22765" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T14:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T14:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if we are going to bitch about capitalism's inequality, we may want to avoid ignoring the structural inequality of the situation for many throughout the Middle Ages.<br />And then with a little freedom those people started to constitute a middle class. And this is what every modern intellectual hates most, right or left.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22766" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T14:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T14:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">He can't possibly mean "most women."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22767" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">InteIIectuaIs hate competition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T14:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T14:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">22,997</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22769" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T15:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T15:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, the common good.<br />Why set up a system in which both rich and poor, few and many, and all in between can argue and duke it out and a majority faction will be hard to form?<br />Why not just give power to an elite few to umpire and moderate the claims of all sides regardless of majority will - screw mitigating it! Madison speaks of this in 51.<br />Crazy, I know, but as it turns out sometimes giving supreme power to the few leads to oligarchic rule.<br />Which is why any sensible aristocratic system would try to structurally check power and force deliberation when it comes to the power of the few - especially via the rule of the one and the many - over and above trying to educate them well while explaining the hellfire that awaited them for abusing their power.<br />Which is what Madison wants to do in regard to the ultimate power in a Republic - find ways to check and force deliberation re the many, and add in powers of the one and the few into the system as such a check.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22770" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T15:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T15:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is why poIiticians can't sue for defamation for the most part, as weII as because they're they're aII thieves and whores.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22771" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T15:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">gnosis cut off point. [23K]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22772" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T15:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T15:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MarketpIace of Ideas™</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T15:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I get the sense that they wouId make a "do over" if they had a better crystaI baII.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22774" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It is through prayer that men come to the unitive knowledge of God. But the life of prayer is also a life of mortification, of dying to self. It cannot be otherwise; for the more there is of self, the less there is of God. Our pride, our anxiety, our lusts for power and pleasure are God-eclipsing things. So too is that greedy attachment to certain creatures which passes too often for unselfishness and should be called, not altruism, but alter-egoism. And hardly less God-eclipsing is the seemingly self-sacrificing service which we give to any cause or ideal that falls short of the divine. Such service is always idolatry, and makes it impossible for us to worship God as we should, much less to know Him. God's kingdom cannot come unless we begin by making our human kingdoms go. Not only the mad and obviously evil kingdoms, but also the respectable ones - the kingdoms of the scribes and pharisees, the good citizens and pillars of society, no less than the kingdoms of the publicans and sinners. God's being cannot be known by us, if we choose to pay our attention and our allegiance to something else, however creditable that something else may seem in the eyes of the world."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22775" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T15:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sonya is ill and has lost several children over a short span. Tolstoy, that most empathetic fellow, writes "There is no worse situation for a healthy man than to have a sick wife."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22776" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T15:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Husband of the year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22777" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T15:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T15:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tolstoy. Cared deeply about humanity writ large...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22778" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(44, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T15:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Stop being sick - this is making my life difficult! Why are you so selfish?!?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but a really odd mix of deist "Christianity" and anarchism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did not post slander against you Isak. I was merely representing your conversation. I was just saying how imprudent I felt it was for the founders of the college to describe Western academia as a tyranny. That is fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope Scott, it was slander</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got caught up in the wash too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22783" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Idolatry consists in loving a creature more than we love God. There are many kinds of idolatry, but all have one thing in common: namely, self-love. The presence of self-love is obvious in the grosser forms of sensual indulgence, or the pursuit of wealth and power and praise. Less manifestly, but none the less fatally, it is present in our inordinate affections for individuals, persons, places, things and institutions. And even in men's most heroic sacrifices to high causes and noble ideals, self-love has its tragic place. For when we sacrifice ourselves to any cause or ideal that is lower than the highest, less than God Himself, we are merely sacrificing one part of our unregenerate being to another part which we and other people regard as more creditable. Self-love still persists, still prevents us from obeying perfectly the first of the two great commandments. God can be loved perfectly only by those who have killed out the subtlest, the most nobly sublimated forms of self-love. When this happens, when we love God as we should and therefore know God as love, the tormenting problem of evil ceases to be a problem, the world of time is seen to be an aspect of eternity, and in some inexpressible way, but no less really and certainly, the struggling, chaotic multiplicity of life is reconciled in the unity of the all-embracing divine charity."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22784" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it was not. It was accurate. Sorry you do not see it this way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T15:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[^tNET idolatry]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22786" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you could be sorry for being a bombastic jerk..... but that may be asking too much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22787" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak, you sound like more of an anarchist than I do....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22788" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not talking about you calling me a jerk. That's no worse than me calling you a butthead. I'm talking about you calling me a heretic, and calling shame on me for supposedly disrespecting the Blessed Mother whom I love dearly. I was not involved in that conversation that got you in such a huff. What I think of the topic and the way it was handled is irrelevant. You accused me of things you have no right to. You slandered me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22789" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael - #huxleygnosis #anarchygnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22790" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So sit down and shut up, please, Scott, unless you're going to apologize.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22791" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(193, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I do not owe you an apology, and you should have the humility to not need one. I am learning how to converse with you super intelligent people. It can be a challenge sometimes when you remarkable scholars of Aristotle and Thomas say things like the Founders did not mean God when they said God, and the like.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22792" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You should not have been silent, in regards to Mary. I am glad you love Her.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22793" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Founders are wrong heresy. I sense another anathema.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22794" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">blah - you just don't have the #gnosis Scott. you missed the point and got huffy for no reason, and didn't read or understand anyone's explanation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22795" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I don't think the protestants (of some varieties) believe in the same God as I do. But the reality is one. We should keep the distinction between the reality of God separate from the varied beliefs/teachings of God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22796" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">#distinguognosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22797" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Chaucer was writing in English before 1400 (among which writings was a translation of Boethius's Consolation of Philosophy)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22798" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1400 is post middle ages, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22799" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Piers Plowman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22800" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">1343-1400</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22801" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">dates of Chaucer's life</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I dunno, I think of the 13th century as the high point of the middle ages with Albert, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Scotus and Ockham</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22803" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so if the middle ages stretch from 450 to 1400, we've got too much time to generalize</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but I think everything from 1100-1400 or so would be "typical middle ages".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22805" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">or maybe 1033</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22806" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As far as I'm concerned, the middle ages begins with Anselm and Abelard</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's post-Roman then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Boethius and Augustine are late-Roman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22809" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine pre-dates Alaric</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how about the Venerable Bede?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22811" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think of those things as medieval, because I generally think of the Scholastic period as the medieval period</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">which would mean 1100 to at least Suarez and John of St. Thomas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22813" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">so the claim is that most people could read their native language between 1100 and 1400, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22814" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Piers Plowman was a man out standing in his field.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22815" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Something like that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22816" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jefferson's God is not my God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22817" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">does that invalidate the founding? I don't think so</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22818" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, at the very least, reports about literacy are often too low, since the statistics of the time generally mistake ability to read Latin for ability to read due to the way people of the time spoke.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22819" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what did they have to read, though?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dante, Chaucer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bocaccio</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22822" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This isn't the United States of there are as many Gods as there are people to believe in God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22823" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, I might be confusing philosophical schools with historical periods</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty much. Allah is not my God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22825" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T15:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't it?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22826" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a huge gap in my awareness of history: from somewhere around Nero to 1492 </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God is God. Different religions have varying degrees of understanding of God; but our Constitution supports and defends the free exercise of the Catholic Faith. Is there a problem with this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Everyone imagines God differentIy, so one person = one God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22829" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know, I think one could argue that intentionally denying divine attributes leads to a different conception of God and thus to "believing in a different God".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not sure what happened between the glory of Christendom and Hobbes. How did we get from a Catholic understanding of governance to where we are today, and is that bad?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's my point Edward, like I wrote earlier, we need to distinguish between God as He is and God as we conceive of Him</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Evidence of which is that I've heard that there is a dispute among Arabic-speaking Christians as to whether to call their God Allah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22833" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And there were whole encyclicals written about what Chinese word to use for God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22834" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think grace has a lot to do with it... that intersection between natural belief and belief by grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22835" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, yes, the Chinese encyclicals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22836" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't need an apology, Scott. You need to apologize. There's a difference. And there is no need to tell me I need humility. I don't have your issues with self-awareness.<br />As for staying silent, you seem to imagine that I was reading and following the conversation and tacitly approving by not joining in. You're nuts.<br />Your sarcasm is noted, regarding conversing with remarkable scholars.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22837" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">is Allah triune? that may make a difference Edward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22838" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T15:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard that the whole "Allahu akbar" thing involves a denial of the Trinity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22839" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and thus, a denial of the true God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and therefore, not my God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22841" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the clockwork Deist God suffers from a similar defect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22842" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let it go, Isak. We were having a conversation about the Immaculate Conception, and some people distorted it into a discussion of crude human anatomy, which was breathtakingly inappropriate... and you were silent. And now you come begging for an apology. Forget it. <br />I think it is entirely possible for a Founding Father to have certainty about the existence of the true God, then fall into a kind of idolatry and worship something false. We are all prone to this temptation. But this is not to say that God in the founding documents secretly means something else, as some seem to be saying here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22843" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T15:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">let it go!? take your own advice sometime....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you really blaming me for not being present when a conversation occurred? Either I was sleeping or out doing something else. When I came back TNET was gone. What is wrong with you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AIIow me to be the bigger dick here. Geesus didn't even know he was the Son of God and besides, he was probabIy gay. And immacuIate conception is a stoIen beIief retroactiveIy inserted into Christianity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22846" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael-- you don't think we worship the same God?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22847" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">BEGGING for an apology? Fuck you, Scott. You never apologized for telling people to go to hell either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22848" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ashman, that's trolling too far I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22849" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Damn. I need to up my dickishness.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22850" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, see what Ashman said?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22851" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here we go, everyone unite around a common enemy!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22852" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even I try to treat the deeply held beliefs I don't accept with a touch of respect</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22853" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman might have been referring to me. Which is okay. To everyone else, I am sorry for my strong language. It is directed at Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22854" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T15:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, why are you blaming Isak for stuff I said? That's not fair to anyone</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22855" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T15:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T15:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we please block this lunatic from TNET again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22856" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">non est Deus insapiens dicit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22857" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who wouId Geesus teII to "fucq off"?<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The answer is Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22859" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T16:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ash man, I appreciate your attempt to move the conversation along to something else offensive, But it may not be helping. (Besides, I was about bring up polytheism as the easiest example of different god)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22860" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WeII, sure, you couId try that too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22861" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T16:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_22862" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=670if6Etx0o<br />Troll- Shane Koyczan<br />From the album and Graphic novel, 'Silence Is A Song I Know All The Words To' available for purchase, here http...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not the same as yours?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott made me cry.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22865" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T16:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I feel very bullied.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22866" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Adrw Lng" data-date="2014-09-26T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Adrw Lng at 2014-09-26T16:07:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">23000+ comments later and nothing new under the sun</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22867" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Noone is a medieval philosopher, right? Not a medieval historian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22868" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still shocked about this literacy in the middle ages claim, in case anyone cares.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22869" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nihil novi in linea infinita</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22870" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI the Romans taught them<br />Romans Go Home - Monty Python's Life of Brian<br />Subscribe to the Official Monty Python Channel here - htt...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22871" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John ßwenkler, welcome to tNet... why did political governance decline from a Catholic view to a more secular one between the glory of Christendom and the 16th century? Was this principally because of Protestantism, or was there a population explosion of unruly peasants that needed to be controlled by a more Hobbesian rule... and can the Faith flourish in America?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22872" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are you suggesting a desire for a state religion?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22873" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T16:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I doubt the British Anglicans look to the queen as 'defender of the faith' and desire that the system would be perfect if it were just more catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Noone is a medieval everythingist, Samantha. He's on the committee that's producing a critical edition of Scotus's works, so he has to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Medieval "historical context".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22875" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or is it a desire for a "holy american empire"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22876" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T16:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Noone also has a degree is medieval studies. #credentialgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22877" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, he studied at PIMS in Toronto.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All the medievals could read. They just lied to Baron Zogby.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22879" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">From what he says about it, that program definitely gave one a good sense of the medieval historical situation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, well then I'm just going to suspect you're remembering him wrong.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22881" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T16:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Defer to the expert, Samantha Cohoe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard him say things to that effect two or three times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Wikipedia puts literacy in the 1100s at15-20%</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has he published anything to that effect that I can read?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where? In England? Europe as a whole?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the context was Europe as a whole</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22887" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T16:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is Mowgli, learning to trust the expert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ILPl5FQaM<br />Trust in Me (English)- Jungle Book<br />Kaa singing "Trust in Me" from the Disney movie: THE JUNGLE BOOK<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22888" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I don't think so, I'll ask him for sources next time I see him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry to be so skeptical. It's just a very surprising claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22890" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T16:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T16:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am starting the freedom literacy movement: "liberate yourself from the epistemic authorities." THAT should keep the medieval stereotype going another 10k comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22891" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T16:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A more liberal (less reflective) version of Samantha meets a considerably more dyspeptic Pater Edmund: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNOuVhn_yRw<br />bad vicar<br />mitchell and web bad vicar<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T16:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">These are all the notes I have from that particular part of class:<br />"- initially they wanted to educate their people to talk/read Latin and preach<br />- preaching often in vernacular<br />- in medieval latin 'Litteratus' means you could read Latin, not just read simply"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22893" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T16:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, German purity laws do not distinguish beer from non beer, and they are post-medieval. They distinguish lagers from ales (using older definitions of those terms, where lager was a hopped beer, and ale was not)<br />Indeed, hops only began to be used in the 11th century. The reason for the German purity laws, and especially the requirement of only hopped beer, and no grute ales, was because of a growing tendency, by newer brewers, to add toxic plants to the mash. Whereas anise and mugwort and the like were staples, newer brewers had been less scrupolous, adding deadly nightshade for example.<br />Rather than punish brewers who used toxic plants, they simply banned using anything other than hops as an additive. But that is to mandate a particular style of beer, not distinguish beer from non beer<br />It also prevented other additives besides hops in hopped beer. So both grute ales and, e.g., an Oatmeal Chocolate Stout would be banned<br />Best beer I ever brewed was based on this recipe: http://www.gruitale.com/rec_mugwort_stout.htm<br />gruitale.com :: Gruit Ale & Unhopped Beers, Brewing Herbs and Recipes<br />Gruit Ale & Unhopped Beers, Brewing Herbs and Recipes<br />GRUITALE.COM|BY ALEXANDRE BESSETTE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF!!! I don't know if we can be friends anymore!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have literally never been so offended in my entire life!!!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was a joke!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I thought it was mostly offensive towards the pro state religion side.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22898" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T16:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">kinda like the Johnson quote "little Latin, less Greek" signifying a gradeschool level knowledge, not complete ignorance. Just not the reading of all the great works in the original.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I ever say "I'm spiritual but not religious" you have my permission to put me down for my own good!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22900" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T16:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T16:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">NB: I don't think those characters actually resemble anyone here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22901" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">THen maybe you shouldn't have called that woman a "version of Samantha!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Vicar gets all the good lines in that clip!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22903" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"not particularly religious?" "spiritual?" "interested?" are you testing me, Satan?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22904" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T16:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T16:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"This is a place of peace!" "Oh please, that's a very recent idea, and NOT one I think is going to catch on!"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22905" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:00:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well I don't know the literacy rate exactly in the middle ages. It did increase in some areas to a majority, but I think those were execeptions (such as some small communes, including one that tried to restore the Roman senate in the 12th century)<br />The rise of cathedral schools, colleges and finally universities (11th-13th centuries) did see a rise in literacy, among the clergy and religious certainly (especially among nuns actually). Don't think it spread to laity that much until later (which is why many "clerical" positions in government were still held by clerics)<br />But we could at least say this...the people weren't as ignorant as many would have you believe. Jacques Fournier's accounts of interviews with regular peasants and the like is fascinating for both showing the country simplicity of speech, but an amazing breadth of knowledge among the lowest rung. They knew their faith better than many literate today. Even knew the bible better (though, in fairness, their retelling of biblical stories were often embellished in hilarious ways)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22906" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I only meant the comparison insofar as you were on the pro religious liberty side. Rewatching the clip, I can see how the unjust comparison would rankle. My humble apologies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22907" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok, I just put a warm beer in the fridge and then, two minutes later, removed it again when I went to grab a beer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22908" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is a tragedy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22909" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, do we believe in the same God? IDK your belief-structure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22910" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I believe I'm going to take the kids to the lego store this evening....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22911" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that Avicenna and Thomas Aquinas believed in the same God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, at least, they believed in a God who's existence could be demonstrated by the same argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I highly doubt that. Edward. yeah, you can prove god.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22915" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">unmoved mover, first cause, personal, probably even loving, but not Triune.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua is making me nostalgic for the medieval age and becoming illiterate. Hear that, Beitia. Old skool epistemic authority was more enlightened. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but how good a Muslim was Avicenna?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22918" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure, but the former part is what is referred to by Romans 1:20</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that I don't know</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://quran.com/4/171<br />Surat An-Nisa' [4:171] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم<br />Surat An-Nisa' [verse 171] - O People of the Scripture, do...<br />QURAN.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What Protestants do you think worship a different God than you? Just ones with heretical views on the Trinity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22923" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">clearly unitarians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22924" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They aren't really Christians though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Avicenna was probably a fairly good Muslim. At least, Averroës criticizes him for mixing religious teachings (which, for Averroes, are only persuasive and not primary truths) with philosphy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22926" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mormons certainly don't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nor Jehovahs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22928" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think one can argue that Mormons (who, I know, aren't exactly protestants) don't worship the same God because they seem to be tri-theists.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22929" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">actually they are more like polytheists (they like poly-things)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22930" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, I think the Church has declared Mormon baptisms to be invalid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mormons do post mortem baptisms</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22932" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If the Church says we have valid baptism, then I think you need to acknowledge that we have the same God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why I didn't answer the Peregrinator way above. It gets tricky when you start mixing up natural religion with heresy and false religion. But pretty sure that Deism = false religion. Jurt don' want to argue it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">None of those guys are Protestants</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22935" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know how far to push this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22936" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always liked Mormons and Muslims, though, because they came up with a whole new book to justify their religion rather than trying to claim that the Church didn't understand Her own book .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22937" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even an atheistt can validly baptise an atheist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">push, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The answer is far.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22940" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And a Mormon can valid baptised a buddhist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22941" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you didn't grow up in a predominantly Mormon area Edward</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22942" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Valid baptism isn't the only mark</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22943" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that doesn't answer the question of whether a "Mormon baptism" would be valid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it isn't</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22945" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has given a negative response to a "Dubium" regarding the validity of Baptism conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more commonly known as the Mormons. Given that this decision changes the past practice of not questioning the validity of such Baptism, it seems appropriate to explain the reasons that have led to this decision and to the resulting change of practice."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22946" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm<br />THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER<br />The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has given a negative response to a "Dubium" regarding the validity of Baptism conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more commonly known as the Mormons. Given that this decision changes the past practice of not questioning the val…<br />EWTN.COM<br />September 26 at 5:15pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Joshua Kenz It isn't, because they are henotheists</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22947" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But under Hinckley they are trying to be accepted by mainstream protestantism, deemphasizing the wackier ideas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22948" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think one could argue that Mormon's can't validly baptize because they don't think the Trinity is what the Church says it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward: because they perpetrated greater fraud? You like them more?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, because they seem to me to be more honest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22951" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had an argument years ago with a Baptist in a weird sect of Baptists that was based entirely on a misreading of Acts. They only baptized in the name of God, not the trinity</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(and I'm not intending to criticize any particular non-Catholic)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22953" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mormons can validly baptise, the same way an atheist could...if they intend to do what the Church does, e.g. if a Catholic mom gets in an accident and her baby is dying and a Mormon comes to assist, and she says I am Catholic, I want you to baptise the baby etc, that would be valid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22954" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm criticizing all of them </p>
</li>
<li id="post_22955" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's a question for you egg-heads--most of the sacraments require a very minimal intention by the minister of the sacrament: "do what the church does." Even if the minister misunderstands or disbelieves what the church proclaims is done in the various sacraments, he still validly baptizes as long as he intends to "do that thing called baptism."<br />Recently, a lot of ink has been shed questioning whether many/most marriages are invalid b/c the intention of the ministers (i.e. the married couple) is incorrect. E.g. the married couple intends to use abc, or intends to probably get divorced, or something like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, they probably don't do valid baptisms then</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why the greater requirement for intention in marriage?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22958" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Episcopalians are ceasing to be actual Christians, in that many don't validly baptise (creator, redeemer, sanctifier crap). Same goes for the mainstream presybyterians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(And forgive any errors in terminology.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22960" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What does Unam Sanctam say? I forgot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22961" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Intending to use abc does not invalidate a marriage</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22962" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">hey, I already got lambasted for that, John</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've heard the opposite of that, Joshua Kenz</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22964" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:20:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">There isn't a greater intention, there are stupid American tribunals trying to "established precedent" even though stare decisis is not a thing in canon law</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22965" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ilots of secular marriages I've been to lately didn't even have vows.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22966" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then you heard wrong</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22967" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">really. I missed it, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22968" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz--this was my suspicion. So is the old school "manualist" answer for degree of intention need more or less the same in Marriage as in Baptism, confession, etc.?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22969" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott called me a Heretic on Isak's fb for that specifically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22970" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">With Mormon Baptisms, though, I'd wonder if they could form the correct intention, given their own preconceptions about Baptism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22971" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Look, are you handing marital rights over to the other, freely? That is the essence here. Intending to hold off children, or only have two, or even not to have any children does not invalidate in and of itself, nor does the belief in the possibility of divorce</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">An atheist can, so why not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22973" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">seriously Edward, grow up in Mormon-dense Idaho. it isn't a religion, it's a ponzi scheme</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It doesn't matter what they belief. The sacramental context differs</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22975" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">B/c a horribly heretical priest who disbelieves in transubstantiation will still perform a valid mass (assuming proper matter and form), w/ even a super minimalistic intention of "doing the thing catholics call a mass"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22976" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(249, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that is so incredible and beautiful!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22977" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the handling of marriage in recent years is puzzling</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if you don't intend fidelity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22979" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now if a couple marries with the intention of having it only last a few years, that would be invalid. If one marries with the intention to not have children, such that, if the other spouse requested it, they would refuse and such that not having hildren is, as it were, a condition of their marriage, that would be invalid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sure it does matter what they believe, Joshua, the Mormon person if "intention to do what the Church does" is necessary for a valid sacrament then if the Mormon intends a Mormon baptism or such, it wouldn't be valid either.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22981" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, I think Joshua Kenz is right, a mormon could perform a baptism, e.g. in an emergency on the battlefield or whatever. But Joshua Kenz, it'd still be a question (and the CDF has answered in the negative) concerning "mormon baptisms."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(unless something has changed since Aquinas)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22983" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T17:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Intended non-fidelity would also make it invalid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">my suspicion: lots of null nullifications. Benedict raised an eyebrow over it a few years ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22985" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">even if a Mormon or atheist baptizes someone, after the emergency if the person survives then there would still be a conditional baptism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22986" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:27:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">But to marry thinking no children is not invalid, as long as the no children is not, explicitly or implicitly, a condition of marriage. Just as if one intended infidelity from the get go, and so on.<br />Again, Langley, anyone and I mean anyone can baptise validly. Just because I am an atheist or a buddhist or even a Satanist, does not prevent me, in se, from a valid intention</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22987" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">careful John, remember the canons of Trent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wouldn't prima facie acceptance of the possibility of divorce invalidate the "til death" part of the vows?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22989" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">divorce can be licit. It's the "remarriage" thing that is illicit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22990" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">IOW, a baptism at the request of a dying mother is by its very circumstance and place not a Mormon baptism. What matters is the sacramental signification. And that is there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22991" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">By "Mormon baptism," I mean the baptism given by Mormons to Mormons in a Mormon church. So the difference is that a mormon could intend to do what christians do, same as any other minister of baptism, on the battlefield for instance. But the question is what they intend in the specifically mormon ceremony called baptism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">True...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I guess I accept this "anyone and I mean anyone can baptise validly" in principle, but I wonder about what the conditions for a valid baptism are in practice: what exactly is "intending to do what the Church does".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22994" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(103, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Langley it means I intend to do a baptism, even though I think it bullshit and stupid, fine I will do your "baptism". That suffices.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22995" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, Mrs. Cohoe, it does not</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, all the other person has to do is pour the water and say the right words?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Don't remember, Beitia.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">W/ the right intention. If you are doing it as part of a play, or something, that'd be an obvious example of lacking the right intention.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_22999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that, to me, implies a question about whether + to what degree one's preconceived notions can hinder formation of a correct intention.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Funny thing though. I deeply believe that Jesus was gay and that he never believed he was the son of anyone aside from Joseph. But your heretical (to me) and incorrect beliefs don't bother or offend me. I just find them to be...odd.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23001" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the case of most of the sacraments, the "intention" required is pretty darn low, as far as I can tell. And w/ the possible exception of marriage, which even by Mr. Kenz's account is at least slightly higher than baptism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23002" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Beitia, divorce is per se illicit. Even in the rare case where divorce (a vinculis) is even possible, it is granted as a privilege or indulgence, not a right, And only by the Church.<br />The state has no authority to claim a divorce a vinculis. However, since the Church does nto recognize dissolution of the bond performed by the Church, or annulments of the Church, and since the conditions of separation with the bond remaining often are different in the Church than separation in civil law (and so too the effects), we are allowed to use, as it were a legal fiction, civil divorce for purely civil effects.<br />But only when separation is justified (interestingly I have never met a Catholic who followed Church law on separation...and there is law there)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is John Ashman?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23004" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:33:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, gayness is a modern construct. No one was gay before 1800</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's why the hypothetical is interesting: could the Mormon invalidly baptize in extremis because he intends to do what the Mormon church does?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I know:<br />CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the Church errs, in that she declares that, for many causes, a separation may take place between husband and wife, in regard of bed, or in regard of cohabitation, for a determinate or for an indeterminate period; let him be anathema.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps I just don't understand what people mean by the "sacramental context"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23008" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, my understanding is that it is for that reason that the Church requires conditional rebaptism for cases like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23009" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then Mr. Langley he would not be doing what the Catholi mother asked, IOW not my example</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23010" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The intention need in marriage is not a slightly higher account Joel HF those examples of invalid intentions involve actually repugning the thing that is marriage. E.g. if a priest is heretical, he may still celebrate Mass, though he doesn't believe in it. But he can say the words over the matter and not intend the sacrament,.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is "church law on separation?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23012" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">SEPARATION WITH THE BOND REMAINING<br />Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.<br />Can. 1152 §1. Although it is earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life, nevertheless, if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or tacitly, the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the adultery, gave cause for it, or also committed adultery.<br />§2. Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the adultery. It is presumed, moreover, if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil authority.<br />§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.<br />Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.<br />§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.<br />Can. 1154 After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided.<br />Can. 1155 The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal life; in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to separate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's it? No other causes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23014" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well moralists usually allow for a temporary separation, by mutual consent, e.g. when a father works as a migrant worker</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23015" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But "otherwise renders common life too difficult" is a broad statement, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23016" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, that's pretty strict.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, I suppose so. I missed that line on the first read.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the "tacit condonation" part is definitely a hard teaching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23019" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catholic teaching on marriage is pretty hard generally. But then again, so is Christ in the scriptures.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23020" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well of course it is. We don't call it the bond of marriage for nothing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23021" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Vinculo Matrimonii</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23022" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Chains!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Doesn't seem like it takes into account the potential for power differential within a marriage, and the intense pressure there might be on the innocent spouse not to immediately disrupt common life</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23024" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T17:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6xU96KLBL4<br />#chained_gnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23025" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW, I like the 1917 wording better<br />ART. II: De separatione tori, mensae et habitationis.<br />Can 1128. Coniuges servare debent vitae coniugalis communionem, nisi iusta causa eos excuset.<br />Can 1129 §1. Propter coniugis adulterium, alter coniux, manente vinculo, ius habet solvendi, etiam in perpetuum, vitae communionem, nisi in crimen consenserit, aut eidem causam dederit, vel illud expresse aut tacite condonaverit, vel ipse quoque idem crimen commiserit.<br />§2. Tacita condonatio habetur, si coniux innocens, postquam de crimine adulterii certior factus est, cum altero coniuge sponte, maritali affectu, conversatus fuerit; praesumitur vero, nisi sex intra menses coniugem adulterum expulerit vel dereliquerit, aut legitimam accusationem fecerit.<br />Can 1130. Coniux innocens, sive iudicis sententia sive propria auctoritate legitime discesserit, nulla unquam obligatione tenetur coniugem adulterum rursus admittendi ad vitae consortium; potest autem eundem admittere aut revocare, nisi ex ipsius consensu ille statum matrimonio contrarium susceperit.<br />Can 1131 §1. Si alter coniux sectae acatholicae nomen dederit; si prolem acatholice educaverit; si vitam criminosam et ignominiosam ducat; si grave seu animae seu corporis periculum alteri facessat; si saevitiis vitam communem nimis difficilem reddat, haec aliaque id genus, sunt pro altero coniuge totidem legitimae causae discedendi, auctoritate Ordinarii loci, et etiam propria auctoritate, si de eis certo constet, et periculum sit in mora.<br />§2. In omnibus his casibus, causa separationis cessante, vitae consuetudo restauranda est; sed si separatio ab Ordinario pronuntiata fuerit ad certum incertumve tempus, coniux innocens ad id non obligatur, nisi ex decreto Ordinarii vel exacto tempore.<br />Can 1132. Instituta separatione, filii educandi sunt penes coniugem innocentem, et si alter coniugum sit acatholicus, penes coniugem catholicum, nisi in utroque casu Ordinarius pro ipsorum filiorum bono, salva semper eorundem catholica educatione, aliud decreverit.<br />It gives some sense of what constitutes grave harm or making common life too difficult. Suh as becoming a heretic or trying to raise the children as heretics</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23026" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">btw, I'm not really objecting. I would have expected it to be strict.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23027" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T17:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, you should read the canonical commentary on this. It is generally admitted, and this isn't new, that having relations under some form of duress can rebut the presumption of tacitly condoning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23028" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:51:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">always back to sex with you guys</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23029" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I call protestants idolaters and this is where you take it.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23030" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd be disappointed if it weren't strict. The day you guys compromise on your various strict principles is the day I can stop wondering if the claims are all true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23031" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(227, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's very kind of you</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, and with regard to the idolatry comment, Michael Beitia, I was told by the chaplains at TAC that there was no need for me to be conditionally rebaptized, and I was baptized by a Presbyterian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So either the TAC chaplains were playing pretty fast and loose with my salvation,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23034" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or there is firm consensus that standard Presbyterian baptisms are valid</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">valid Baptism does not necessarily imply same God. but like I said, not sure how hard to push this one</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23036" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mormon baptisms aren't valid because they baptize in the name of their God, who is different. We baptize in the name of the same God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that is, for a Catholic the reason that Presbyterian or other protestant baptisms are valid is because of the Catholic Church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So our baptisms are good. I don't see another way to read it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just answered that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Presbyterians aren't intending to baptize "as the Catholic Church baptizes" though</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">uhm, yeah they are</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23042" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">#secretunderlyingcatholicistygnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We intend to baptize the way Scripture tells us to baptize. We don't care how the (Roman) Catholic Church baptizes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23044" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T17:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">(that's where you got scripture....)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T17:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a separate argument, I think</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T18:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but with regards to same God/different God, I wonder how much can be made from TULIP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23047" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23048" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T18:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">on that note, it's off to the lego store</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23049" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T18:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">jerk. have fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23050" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-26T18:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-26T18:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If they weren't intending in the same way, from the point of view of the church, converts would have to be re baptized or conditionally baptized.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23051" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T18:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is intended the same way, but that's because we have the same beliefs about God, not because we're trying to do "what the Catholic Church intends," as in the case of the Morman emergency baptism example</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T18:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, I wish "neo-Scholasticism" meant people started writing commentaries on the Sentences or the Summa or some such work again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23053" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T18:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T18:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Instead we get a bunch of historical studies written by people trying to get tenure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23054" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T18:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now I want to play with Legos...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23055" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You know, it'd be nice if some of these arguments were separated out nicely so that people could follow up on them later.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23056" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T18:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On some sort of forum-like thing, perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23057" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-26T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-26T18:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This discussion of baptism reminds me of a conversation I once overheard between my parents. My mom (protestant) was complaining about my dad's lapsed faith and quoting the text in I Corinthians about unbelievers being "covered" by the faith of a believing spouse. My dad wryly replied: "well, your faith may be what is 'covering' me but my church is what is 'covering' your faith."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23058" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T19:03:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, the standard is not to do what the Church intends, but to do what the Church does. You can have your heretical beliefs about what baptism is, but you are still intending to do a "baptism". You may think what the Catholic Church believes about baptism is wrong while doing it, but you are still intending "baptism", namely to do what Christ ordered the apostles to do.<br />The Mormon's fail at even this standard, not because they don't believe the same about baptism, but because, ultimately, what they call baptism is only called that by equivocation...it differs not from baptising someone in the name of Xenu or in the name of Shiva and Ganesha.<br />Put it this way, when an atheist does an emergency baptism, it works, because even though he doesn't believe any of it, he is still intending to do what Christians do, and when he says the words "Father, Son and Holy Ghost", however much he doesn't believe those Persons exist, and however deficient is understanding of what we believe about them, he still intends to be doing as Christians do and to be saying the names of our God.<br />Whereas Mormons really intend a different god, and only use the same names with pure equivocation, which is why it might as well be in the name of Shiva.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23059" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T19:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley, socraticum.com might take off more if it wasn't constantly down during the day</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23060" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T19:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T19:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you have an account with http://socraticum.com, you now can ask a question by just sending an email to replies@socraticum.com, as long as the email address you're sending from is the email address associated with your Socraticum account.<br />Socraticum.com<br />Discussion group for the philosophically minded<br />SOCRATICUM.COM<br />September 26 at 7:04pm · Like · Remove Preview<br />Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, that's odd, I've never seen it down.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I keep an eye on it, at least seven or eight times a day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-26T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-26T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is much of the time...gives an "Application Error" Next time I see it I will send you a screenshot</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23063" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T19:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T19:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thanks, I'm curious as to what's happening, could you also include a date and time so that I can consult the logs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23064" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WHO CAN RECEIVE BAPTISM?<br />1246 "Every person not yet baptized and only such a person is able to be baptized." (CCC)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23065" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got kicked off of the TAC alum fb page. That's positively medieval.<br />In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.<br />As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23066" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T19:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T19:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm shocked, shocked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23067" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T19:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T19:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gambling? In Casablanca?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23068" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T20:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T20:02:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Legos? Why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23069" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T20:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, that's the Tower of Orthanc on the right....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23070" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T20:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T20:09:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">regarding Baptism:<br />3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23071" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is that your collection or at the store?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23072" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T20:15:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">a small piece of the collection</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23073" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-26T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-26T20:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">We always grew up being told that Lego was the one thing that you could never have too much of </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23074" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T20:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anybody on Spotify and have a great playlist for an abandoned philosopher's wives' craft night?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23075" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-26T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-26T20:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Around here they're called "philosophy widows."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23076" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T20:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that makes it sound so permanent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-26T20:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-26T20:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">they're here see ya tNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23078" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-26T20:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-26T20:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want in on this philosopher widow's craft night..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23079" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T20:40:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia "kids what did I say about touching dad's Legos"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no they're all the kids'. My sister "appropriated" my legos from youth and now they are locked in a storage unit somewhere in Southwestern Idaho...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23081" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T20:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hahaha... I still have mine. After taking the kids to the movie they told me "we have all the 1980's spaceman ones at home"... "Yup"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23082" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-26T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-26T20:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyone have any tips to give me for reading the Illiad... I have such a hard time following it every time I read it and should probably do a better job since I have to lead a discussion on it next Friday...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23083" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-26T20:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cliff notes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23084" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-26T20:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-26T20:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well here is the odyssey http://youtu.be/qf3XrZW2o4I<br />Homer's Odyssey - Thug Notes Summary and Analysis<br />I have heard the Siren's song. And all they say is...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23085" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-26T20:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-26T20:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha! I love those!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23086" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-26T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-26T21:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh great, I asked for advice from my husband and now he showed me how to Wikipedia every person/town/etc on my kindle... I knew there was a reason I wouldn't like this kindle thing... (Disclaimer: kindle is being used because of the ease of reading while taking care of a newborn)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23087" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:15:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">tip one: skim the list of ships</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23088" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">tip two: Armor is important</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"philosopher widows craft" doesn't have a homey feel at night. Caleb is "gone". What kind of craft is that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23090" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha: https://play.spotify.com/.../playlist/3OyYF0LlX51u2xMnFHV0eX<br />Live Like Isak<br />By Isak Benedict<br />Save</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23091" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">tip three: Book one starts with anger, book 24 ends with magnanimity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23092" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">tip four: DONT mess with Diomedes:<br />http://greekmythcomix.wordpress.com/.../deaths-in-the.../<br />Deaths in the Iliad: a Classics Infographic<br />As requested: buy this as a poster in the UK! Or buy this as a poster in the US! NEW: go here to find out exactly how...<br />GREEKMYTHCOMIX.WORDPRESS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23093" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T21:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">re. Iliad: outline the whole thing. Worthwhile if you have time. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23094" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lauren - if you can find anything by Glenn Arbery, I have found his lectures and commentaries on the Iliad quite good!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23095" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.amazon.com/Why.../dp/1882926595/ref=sr_1_1...<br />Why Literature Matters: Permanence and the Politics of Reputation<br />Through an examination of the work of poets and...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23096" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:32:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">okay, this is too funny (salty language):<br />http://www.badassoftheweek.com/diomedes.html<br />Badass of the Week: Diomedes<br />The ultimate list of all badasses past and present.<br />BADASSOFTHEWEEK.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23097" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Love that site</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23098" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael - salty language?! On TNET?!?!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">shit, I like to fucking warn people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23100" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T21:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T21:33:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Next thing you know we will start engaging in impassioned arguments!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pretty sure I managed to go 23,000+ comments without dropping the big one and then came the troll again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew - no impassioned arguments allowed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23103" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">the problem, for me, is that working in a blue collar, male dominated, industry, I hear the f-bomb approximately 5000 times a day. never in reference to anything, but more like the trashy way of saying "uh"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23104" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do this at work, with variations:<br />http://xkcd.com/90/<br />xkcd: Jacket<br />Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor...<br />XKCD.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It does tend to lose its rhetorical power with frequent use. I think that's the point with those words you can't say on TV.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23106" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T21:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T21:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Assuming they have seen the original three, when, if ever, is it permissible to allow one's children to watch Lucas's last three Star Wars movies?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23107" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:38:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Great question. I say never. If they want to do it themselves when they've left the house, that's their decision.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23108" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">there was an argument at the pit when I was a senior that went along the lines that the f-bomb must always be said violently. Fleury, RIP, ended it by muttering "that's fucking stupid"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23109" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's the point of having words you can't use unless you use them? </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23110" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:40:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">My older kids have seen them. The are natural born (that's I lie, it is imitation) critics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(79, 89%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxf1c3fzDOU<br />Star Wars Episode I: What Went Wrong<br />The true account of why Episode I was simply terrible.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23112" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-26T21:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-26T21:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Jar Jar is a key to all this."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23113" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-10-22T01:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-10-22T01:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, you earlier today invited some thoughts on Federalist 51. I posted what follows below on my thread about Plato's Laws, but I am posting it here as well in response to your invitation.<br />Returning to the problem of embracing division as a principle, which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully unfolds, it is worth noting that "divide and conquer" has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a people. In Federalist 51, Madison employs this principle with a vengeance: "This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public. We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to DIVIDE and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the other--that the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public rights." Since the legislative authority necessarily predominates in a republican government, the remedy is to DIVIDE it into different branches. As for the government as a whole: "In the compound republic of America, the power surrendered by the people is first DIVIDED between two distinct governments, and then the portion allotted to each subDIVIDED among distinct and separate departments." Finally, society itself "will be BROKEN into so many parts, interests and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority." The problem here is not so much the fact that a government would have different branches or centers of authority. Many governments long before the American experiment had similar divisions. The problem is Madison's willingness to so thoroughly embrace division as a principle in the absence of any apparent concern for "better motives." As he famously wrote, "Ambition must be made to counter ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place." This spirit of division and contention is so thoroughly embraced that it breeds and gives license to a people and statesmen who are indifferent to virtue and self-restraint. After all, one serves the "general good" when one acts ambitiously, or so we are taught. Every American schoolboy from time immemorial as been taught to sing the praises of the saving graces of "checks and balances," as if the system alone were sufficient to replace the need for virtue. In Choruses from the Rock, T.S. Eliot had this to say about men like Madison and his Enlightenment friends.<br />They constantly try to escape<br />From the darkness outside and within<br />By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good.<br />But the man that is shall shadow<br />The man that pretends to be.<br />This profound poetic insight brings us to the heart of the Enlightenment project and the Madisonian proposal to turn away from virtue to embrace a system that seizes on ambition and harnesses it to achieve the so-called "common good."<br />I therefore do not find persuasive Matthew J. Peterson's argument that Madison's proposal is made on behalf of justice and the common good simply because he employs these terms. Madison says in Federalist 10 that "Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit." But what does Madison mean by "justice"? Based on this passage and others like it, it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with liberty. For Madison, justice is not, as St. Thomas defined it, "a habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual will." Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are due, as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the interstices. <br />And so we are left with Eliot's question: <br />What life have you, if you have not life together?<br />There is not life that is not in community,<br />And no community not lived in praise of GOD.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I got dragged to that movie the summer between Junior and senior year. AWEFUL</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23115" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson, here's a companion piece to the above from my thread on Plato's Laws. There you wrote: "First off, if you hold that government can get rid of the latent causes of faction, methinks you should read some of that olde time Christian religion, and the words of Jesus Christ in the gospels, all of which suggest that something beyond human wrought laws is needed."<br />I do not recall anyone saying that government can simply get rid of faction. But a few of us have faulted Madison for turning away from the traditional political art, the business of which is the care of souls, which art would require a statesman to concern himself with the causes of faction. That Madison rejected this ancient ideal is, I think, undeniable since in Federalist 10 Madison explicitly rejects dealing with causes of faction. (If Madison speaks or acts contrary to this principle elsewhere, that is another matter that I cannot address here at the moment.)<br />In response to your claim that the Christian religion and the words of Jesus Himself suggest that something supernatural is needed to overcome faction, I wholeheartedly agree. But that is quite a different point and it does not, as you seem to suggest, put Madison in the Christian camp. St. Augustine's City of God makes this clear. There St. Augustine insists that the natural virtues are essential to human happiness, even though he is quick to point out their limitations. The natural virtues are necessary but not sufficient to perfect us. We need the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity to overcome the factions in our souls. But that is not because the natural virtues are unnecessary. St. Augustine does not reject them or the effort required to establish therm in our souls. He simply insists that the natural virtues cannot on their own make us happy, for the natural virtues require constant effort so that we might win the battle within ourselves against our own propensities to sin. Hence, even when we defeat temptation and act justly, temperately, courageously and prudently, we still cannot be at rest because it is a constant battle against our fallen nature. Yet this does not mean we should be indifferent to the effort to discipline ourselves in order to be good. After all, despite our fallen nature, we are ordered both naturally and supernaturally to what is good. Hence, there is no agreement here between true Christianity and Madison's willingness to give up on the causes of faction and deal with the effects only. I have argued elsewhere that I think Madison's view of nature is non-teleological, and that is the essential difference between Madison and the traditional Christian thinkers. Having faction in our souls is not our natural condition; it is our fallen state. Yet we remain oriented by nature to the good, and that orientation is not destroyed by original sin. Hence, the political art is obliged to address the causes of faction even though it cannot, as you rightly point out, get rid of faction without supernatural assistance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry, Jeffrey Bond, but this argument is odd to me. It seems evident on the face of things that people have their private interest (factually) and pursue it. And, given the fallen state of man, and the propensity to sinfulness, it happens that frequently men do not attempt to gain their natural or supernatural end. That is the matter of politics.<br />Taking Federalist 10 or 51 out of the context of a rhetorical and persuasive argument for the formation of a union, and making it a political philosophy in itself, is odd, and I think unfair to the text.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23117" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see why it is odd to unpack the assumptions behind a political document, especially one that has been hailed as the sole contribution by an American to the history of political thought. The rhetorical context does not change the principles involved. Yes, fallen man is known to pursue his self-interest. The question is, how does the political art address this fact. Madison's proposal takes a certain path. Why can we not critique it, especially since it has been so formative of the American psyche.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IDK, Aristotle himself spends more time discussing the "mixed regime" - which is what the American Republic is - than any other regime.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23119" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Aristotle first sets forth the principles by which he can meaningfully descend to the particulars. And he puts those principles into play in his analysis. He does not abandon the notion of a best regime in his effort to analyze actual existing regimes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Best" is not the same as "possible"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23121" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course. But possible cannot be evaluated without a view to the best. That is the hallmark of classical political philosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23122" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:07:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I gotta bow out tonight. Listening to "Visions of Johanna" and drinking cheap TJs beer.<br />But I'll be back. Appreciate the comments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is clear that Aristotle thinks kingship or aristocracy is best. This is so because in both cases the ruling power contributes to the good life. When Aristotle investigates the lesser regimes of oligarchy and democracy, he rates and ranks them according to the standards established in evaluating aristocracy and kingship.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isn't polity a mix of the demos and the aristoi?!? Isn't that the best possible?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that aristocracy or kingship being the best is subject to debate, and Aristotle spends much time on the mixed regime because that's what is the best under normal human conditions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23126" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Trying. To. Stay. On. Target. And. Off. tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T22:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T22:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can we all admit that we live in a different regime than the one Madison et al. founded?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23128" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(213, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are a number of senses of best that have to be sorted out. Best in the absolute sense. Best possible. Best for most times and places.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23129" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is clear that kingship and aristocracy are best simply because he uses their contribution to the good life as the measure by which others are judged. Aristotle rewrites the demands of the oligarchs and the democrats so that their claim to rule is based on what they contribute to the good life, not just mere life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23130" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-26T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-26T22:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the point of reading the Federalists, Matthew J. Peterson? Historical curiosity? Getting to the true meaning of the constitution? Political philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23131" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd say historical curiosity, but I'm the one with #perpetualrevolutiongnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23132" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Matthew would say getting to the true meaning of the Constitution, but that would also be part of political philosophy. But when he returns--if he can stay away--I am sure he will answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23133" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel, I think we are living in the logical extension of the regime Madison founded. The principles seem unchanged to me, though equality is fast replacing liberty as the political goal.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23134" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Locke leads to Rousseau.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23135" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and from there to Zizek.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23136" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"tolerance is the only virtue in the west"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23137" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, but tolerance as a dogmatic principle rather than as part of the virtue of charity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23138" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes it is, and "tolerance" leads to the worst sort of "intolerance" - promotion of vice and outlawing virtue. But I think that is distinct from the founding</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23139" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real question is should I have scotch, bourbon, cognac or some sort of gin drink.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23140" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scotch</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">All this political stuff is a sign of intellectual laziness </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23142" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(preferably an Islay)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23143" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Locke was Jefferson's supreme hero. And Locke is the source of the toleration principle you see in action. That was the founding.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23144" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not exactly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23145" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23146" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"However, as we will see in time, during periods of intellectual decadence, of intellectual fatigue, during periods in which intelligences are too exhausted to give themselves to disinterested speculation which in reality conditions all ethical philosophy, during these periods one does nothing but morality."<br />http://www.charlesdekoninck.com/course-notes-on-nietzsche/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23147" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who's in charge of the Charles De Koninck website? that preview is horrendous!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The First Amendment is pure Locke. So are the principles of consent, social contract, sovereignty, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23149" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">toleration, rightly understood, I think, allows free individuals a social sphere within which to act. The modern "tolerance" voices scream down all who make a choice to act contrary to the will of the loudest faction</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23150" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The modern tolerance factions are just trying to rectify the plight of oppressed minorities . . . and if you don't understand that, you're eeeeeeeeevil.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For in Locke we live and move and have our being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23152" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, a lot of the enlightenment political principles can be traced back to the eve of the High Middle Ages.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scotus is the first to enunciate the view that the consensus populi is the legitimating principle of government (in his commentary on the 4th book of the Sentences)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">William of Ockham basically invented the notion of subjective right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23155" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's new in Locke is the idea that the right to property is the fundamental subjective right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Charlie Rich. Such a talented soul. But wild. Boozing. Blazing waste of talent.<br />And when he comes out with that jazz/blues/American country album after years of silence after years of debauchery and then dies. Well. It does something for me.<br />And when he sings this song, I think he means it.<br />http://www.youtube.com/embed/lXqDyytuRvo?autoplay=1<br />Charlie Rich "I Feel Like Going Home" 1973 Version<br />Produced by Billy Sherrill. Issued in 1973 as the B side to...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Consent of the population may not be the legitimating principle, but it is a sine qua non, factually</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23158" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which causes him problems when it comes to important things like taxation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23159" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Locke puts it all in a pretty package.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23160" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-26T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-26T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier http://www.nationalreview.com/.../ralphism-vs-being...<br />Peter Augustine Lawler - Ralphism vs. Being Personal?<br />As I complained before, I can’t seem to get things to stick...<br />NATIONALREVIEW.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My guess is that the political theories of people like Suarez and such were, de facto, more important. People like Locke generally wrote to get the masses on board.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23162" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ugh, we're so close... should I stick around for 23456?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23163" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrpRHznWSiQ<br />HANK WILLIAMS "I`ll Never Get Out Of This World Alive" Deutsche 78er MGM 1952<br />Deutsche Schellack MGM 0152 .<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />September 26 at 10:29pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Michael Beitia okay if this turns into country music hour, I'm out.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/H1DO7SnZy34<br />Feel Like Going Home ~ Charlie Rich + Lyrics Below<br />"Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23165" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-26T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-26T22:31:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I, on the other hand, might be in. just sayin'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23166" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">God love you Ferrier, but I hate your musical choices...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I'm sure that statement is convertable</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23168" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-26T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-26T22:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's next? Little Bobby Dylan and Johnny Cash?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23169" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Old country charlie rich does jazz in his old age:<br />http://youtu.be/pZtX_yJ7k1A<br />Charlie Rich ~ Pictures & Paintings<br />Charlie Rich performing Pictures & Paintings in 1992.<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23170" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJeFcOqzdXc<br />Claudio Monteverdi - Il ritorno di Ulisse in Patria<br />Credits: http://www.allmusic.com/album/monteverdi-il-rito...<br />YOUTUBE.COM<br />September 26 at 10:36pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview<br />Richard Delahide Ferrier Merle Haggard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Waylon Jennings sings about fallen human nature before becoming completely steeped in debauchery:<br />http://youtu.be/-vEGDSD-fYs<br />Waylon Jennings Lay It Down<br />Waylon Jennings Lay It Down from The Journey Six Strings Away Box Set. Travelin' down on different roads...<br />YOUTUBE.COM|BY WAYLON JENNINGS</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23172" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heh, heh, heh:<br />http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZHAFmFsb9XM?autoplay=1<br />Merle Haggard -- The Fightin' Side Of Me<br />1968<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23173" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-26T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-26T22:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier How did you know, Matthew J. Peterson?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-26T22:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-26T22:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VLhH2wCtAQ<br />Merle Haggard - Fightin' side of me<br />A modern reflection of the song in our Time. (2010-2012)<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23175" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T22:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T22:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oof</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23176" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(194, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's Waylon doing a song Charlie Rich made famous:<br />http://youtu.be/dse6a-wFXDs<br />Waylon Jennings.... Good Time Charlie's got the Blues<br />I just can't stay away from the ' lonesome on'ry and...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23177" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T22:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T22:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23178" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"However, as we will see in time, during periods of intellectual decadence, of intellectual fatigue, during periods in which intelligences are too exhausted to give themselves to disinterested speculation which in reality conditions all ethical philosophy, during these periods one does nothing but morality."<br />http://www.charlesdekoninck.com/course-notes-on-nietzsche/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23179" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T22:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T22:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"A Thomist cannot view history the history of philosophy otherwise. With St. Thomas we assist in an immense intellectual effort of humanity. St. Thomas was a superman of formidable proportion: and one can say that the difficulties that he encountered in his milieu were proportional to his greatness. Human ignorance has something of the brutal. Although it is not more cruel than weakness. Today we are spoken to always of the persecution of Galileo, when in reality, the difficulties which this man encountered were childishness compared to those of St. Thomas. The middle ages finished by digesting St. Thomas a little. The regional excommunications of his doctrine were lifted, and the Dominican Order set to the work.<br />But the intelligence of humanity was extremely fatigued by this immense effort. (page 23) The curve descends. Scholastic quarrels became more and more verbal. Dogmatic theology would soon cede precedence to moral theology, moral theology also decapitated into theology of sin: the essence of virtue soon became the pure absence of sin. During periods of intellectual decadence, theologians speak only of sin. In order to justify it, they fall into a vicious circle: We speak a great deal about sin, because there is a great deal of it, they say.<br />The descent of the curve lead us to Luther, who has exercised so profound and quasi-determinating an influence on all modern spirituality.<br />Luther succumbed to fatigue. He allowed himself to be led by this current of degradation. Here are his own words: “I am no more than a man apt to let myself be led by society ( by mass ) drunkenness, movement of the flesh, negligence, and other importunities. (page 24) Ego otiosus et crapulosus sedeo tota die.” I am here from morning to evening and get drunk."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23180" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T22:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-26T22:57:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvdmxszsDM8<br />"Pancho and Lefty" - Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard<br />"Pancho and Lefty" - Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23181" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T23:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley - Not that there's anything Wrong with that...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-26T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This! Could answer so much:)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23183" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"The morality of slaves wants to realize a return to the amorphous indetermination of matter. The morality of masters wants to create an armature of habit which elevates us above ourselves: which renders us divine. Hence the emphasis on force.<br />The morality of slaves is essentially impious. It tends to the destruction of all spontaneity. It codifies. It formalizes. It destroys reason. It tends towards independence: it becomes the categorical imperative. It sets itself above metaphysics. It has a horror of metaphysics, because the latter opens horizons too vast: it gives us vertigo. Vertigo must be ruled by force: but force is terrible; arduous, requires a positive and constructive asceticism. This morality is impious, because it uses God as an instrument. Having exiled reason, having banished metaphysics, it (fouch? bonct?) (thinks? wishes?) that it justifies itself. To do this, it declares all laws divine after having turned away (?) from God toward whom morality should elevate us, after having demolished reason, which is the very essence of morality. Laws become extrinsic constraints which destroy us. They aim at the destruction of the passions, although the passions are the triumph of nature, and although they are essential to morality. (page 8) They establish feebleness as an ideal."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23184" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-26T23:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-26T23:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hy! Oh never mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T23:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see now, Mr. Langley. You have not succumb to fatigue and cannot condescend to speak of mere morality or the archetonic art. And here I thought you were being humble merely. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-26T23:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-26T23:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another fav:<br />http://youtu.be/4uSFw165Qk0<br />Willie Nelson - Me and Paul<br />Yesterday's Wine 1971<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23187" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think CDK here is indicating that there _is_ an evil here—he seems to be paralleling this sentiment of Chesterton's: "It is foolish, generally speaking, for a philosopher to set fire to another philosopher in Smithfield Market because they do not agree in their theory of the universe. That was done very frequently in the last decadence of the Middle Ages, and it failed altogether in its object. But there is one thing that is infinitely more absurd and unpractical than burning a man for his philosophy. This is the habit of saying that his philosophy does not matter, and this is done universally in the twentieth century, in the decadence of the great revolutionary period. General theories are everywhere contemned; the doctrine of the Rights of Man is dismissed with the doctrine of the Fall of Man. Atheism itself is too theological for us to-day. Revolution itself is too much of a system; liberty itself is too much of a restraint. We will have no generalizations. Mr. Bernard Shaw has put the view in a perfect epigram: "The golden rule is that there is no golden rule." We are more and more to discuss details in art, politics, literature. A man's opinion on tramcars matters; his opinion on Botticelli matters; his opinion on all things does not matter. He may turn over and explore a million objects, but he must not find that strange object, the universe; for if he does he will have a religion, and be lost. Everything matters—except everything."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am being humble, Mr. Ruplinger: humility involves knowing the extent of one's powers and acting accordingly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23189" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:08:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I haven't studied enough speculative philosophy to begin practical philosophy well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23190" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-26T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-26T23:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">parting shot, as I go watch TV:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3yUQFluNq0<br />Black Flag - TV Party<br />T.V. PARTY TONIGHT T.V. PARTY TONIGHT T.V. PARTY TONIGHT T.V. PARTY TONIGHT WE'RE...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(92, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"[A]llow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism." How can these TAC graduates, these renowned scholars of Aristotle and Thomas, assert such claims as the Founding Fathers of America believed in a false God, or that without baptism there is no hope for salvation, or that Mary's material body was not immaculate, but only her soul? Is this false claim anything less than a material heresy? Why are they shocked when someone calls them out on this? They should thank the one pointing out the error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23192" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because, Scott, the TACers here are generally being more subtle than your sweeping accusation can countenance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23193" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T23:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ no tac grad said that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-26T23:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-26T23:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The right to property is a very, very naturaI beIief. Anyone with chiIdren knows this. My 2 year oId's favorite saying was "it's mine!" and when corrected, started with "it's mine....NOW".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23195" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott you twist words to find heresy. And if that dont work, invent new heresies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T23:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T23:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Without baptism, no hope for salvation": who said that? Besides even to not hope is to deny no dogma.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23197" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It depends what you mean by "baptism" in "Without baptism, no hope for salvation": if you just mean an infusion of sanctifying grace through some means, that statement is true: if you think someone can get to heaven without grace, you're some kind of Pelagian. If you mean that people who don't receive the ordinary Baptism of water can't get to heaven, then that statement is false.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T23:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T23:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is the subtlety in Ruplinger's statement that the Founders God was a different God that the true God? Am I missing something? Is this a nuanced approach to Socratic dialogue, to state something outlandish in order to lead to truth? Please explain!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23199" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T23:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET 50,000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, in point of fact, no one denied that: the dispute generally involved how to present the necessity of Baptism in an evangelical context.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It depends on what you mean by baptism...? I think what you mean is it depends what you mean by "is."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23202" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T23:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, that is a very sophisticated and nuanced twist to understanding. Thank you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23203" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a real philosophical/theological question of how to know when two people who claim to believe in God actually believe in the same God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-26T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-26T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah yes, of course there is... so of course Madison and Washington did not believe in the same God as the Catholics. QED. God bless you Ed. Perhaps you can lay out that argument tomorrow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, were you in DC's chinatown a week or two ago, Scott?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23206" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T23:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T23:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">1) I have no affiliation with TAC<br />2) I will not debate the nature of the god[s] of the Founder[s?] with an uncredentialed heresy hunter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23207" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-26T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-26T23:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"But there are some people, nevertheless—and I am one of them—who think that the most practical and important thing about a man is still his view of the universe. We think that for a landlady considering a lodger, it is important to know his income, but still more important to know his philosophy. We think that for a general about to fight an enemy, it is important to know the enemy's numbers, but still more important to know the enemy's philosophy. We think the question is not whether the theory of the cosmos affects matters, but whether in the long run, anything else affects them. In the fifteenth century men cross-examined and tormented a man because he preached some immoral attitude; in the nineteenth century we feted and flattered Oscar Wilde because he preached such an attitude, and then broke his heart in penal servitude because he carried it out. It may be a question which of the two methods was the more cruel; there can be no kind of question which was the more ludicrous. The age of the Inquisition has not at least the disgrace of having produced a society which made an idol of the very same man for preaching the very same things which it made him a convict for practising."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23208" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-26T23:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-26T23:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"[A]llow us to hope" is a permission not a command nor a declaration of a definition for a matter proposed for belief. And none have denied such hope. Your accusation is doubly false. No one said such a thing and it is no heresy outside your own mind. Regarding the Founders, good luck finding a statement from me that does not point out the difficulties in the matter. And are you accusing me of denying Americanism?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23209" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-27T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-27T00:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward, do give references. I have no idea where you are quoting from. Academic standards, man, academic standards.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23210" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-27T00:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-27T00:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, I realize it's CDK, but where are you getting this?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23211" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T00:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did give the reference with the first quote: http://www.charlesdekoninck.com/course-notes-on-nietzsche/</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23212" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T00:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T00:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The other stuff is from Chesterton's "Heretics"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23213" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel P. O'Connell" data-date="2014-09-27T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-09-27T00:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you really follow DeKoninck's mini-history of philosophy between Aquinas and Luther? I mean this view of the long decline of philosophy from it's high scholastic peak on down is really so 1950's. I find so much vibrancy and life in the 14th and 15th centuries ... fascinating stuff. Of course, most of it wasn't really unearthed until the 1970s and 1980s ... but don't you think that view of the long decline can only be maintained when the knowledge of the 15th-c. philosophy (the Albertists, etc.) is lacking? Also, he's entirely unfair to Luther. Not that I'm surprised by it, but really polemical ... not at all giving a clear picture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23214" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T00:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T00:52:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sewed a really cute apron for my daughter tonight. Have a good weekend, tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23215" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T00:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T00:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know, my experience with Scotus is that he seems subtle and argumentative without really being convincing. But I don't really know enough to judge the matter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23216" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T00:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sure Noone would disagree, but he seems to equate the complications of 14th and 15th century philosophy with profundity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23217" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">CdeK knows nothing about Luther</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23218" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is a great book on Luther and philosophy: https://drive.google.com/.../0B1NKBnJwd.../view...<br />Though it falls for Luther's misunderstanding of eudaimonism.<br />Aristoteles und Luther by Dieter.pdf - Google Drive<br />DRIVE.GOOGLE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23219" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:09:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">does it mention alchemy? if it doesnt, then it doesnt understand Luther and philosophy at all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23220" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but downloading it now to read</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23221" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T01:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T01:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kinda curious why you think that "CdeK knows nothing about Luther", Jehoshaphat Escalante. He probably had read Luther and I'm more willing to trust his judgment on the matter given the evidence I have.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23222" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Alan Keeler" data-date="2014-09-27T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Alan Keeler at 2014-09-27T01:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">23456?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23223" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">because Luther wrote vastly, and not all in a scholastic vein, CdK didnt read him widely or well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23224" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know them both well, and C de K definitely doesnt know Luther</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23225" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Alan Keeler" data-date="2014-09-27T01:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Alan Keeler at 2014-09-27T01:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">bah. I should have waited another few seconds. This is Claire, by the way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23226" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T01:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is still incommunicable evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23227" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">or authority</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23228" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No alchemy mention, but when I said "Luther and philosophy" I meant "Luther and Aristotle"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23229" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">hahaha ok</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23230" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Luther's relation to Aristotle was complicated; its hard to tell when he means "the school Aristotle" or "Aristotle himself" when he says "Aristotle". He is often respectful of the latter, never of the former</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23231" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:22:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"I understand Aristotle better than Aquinas and Ockham understood him, and I can prove it" —Luther</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in a way I think that might have been true</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(94, 90%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Definitely false as far as eudaimonism goes; Luther sees it as selfish.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23234" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">as did Augustine</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23235" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Augustine _was_ a Eudaimonist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23237" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 32%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Luther has much, much less riding on a reading of Aristotle than Thomas or Ockham do; so it makes him usefully disinterested sometimes. But he's just not much of a commentator on Aristotle at all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not in the Aristotelian sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ahem * pagan virtues christian vices* ahem</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23240" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough, but he understands that seeking happiness ≠ ordering all things to oneself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T01:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T01:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm always suspicious of that sense of "disinterested," but I see how it could be a good thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T01:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The obvious counter is that Luther wasn't smart/interested enough to put enough weight on a good reading of Aristotle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23243" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T01:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T01:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Luther's a eudaimonist too, in a way, except that the fallen person isnt the proper centrum; only in the "maxima persona" (Christ) can you speak of a proper subject of happiness; Christ alone is the "true self", in which one must be by "ecstasy" (Luther's own term for the real incorporation in Christ by faith). So his ethics has a strange topological prolegomenon which must be understood first</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23244" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T01:34:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wish that I could remain in the intelligible light of The Neverending Thread, but alas I have to enter the cave and write a talk on Familiaris Consortio. So long.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23245" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T01:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T01:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Write it as a series of comments on tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23246" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So where are we on the whole question about do we believe in the same God as X discussion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23247" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think there is a some disagreement and someone who seems to think the answer is self-evident.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think nearly everyone agrees that Mormons don't worship the same God as us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23249" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That seems obvious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is some debate about Muslims and Unitarians.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23251" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there really a debate about Muslims?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23252" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then a question about Deists like Jefferson and whatever the other Founders (USA not TAC) held</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Mr. Beitia was arguing that denial of the Trinity was a deal breaker.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23254" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that is fair.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23255" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I argued that they would grant something like Aquinas's arguments for the existence of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is all we need.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And then people were wondering if Avicenna was a typical Muslim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23258" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Essentially, we just need someone to grant that He is one and almighty, and then we know we are talking about the same God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is why Mormons don't count.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not as though we can set a number of attributes that one has to have right in order to be sure we are talking about the same God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Heck, I would hold that even Hindus worship God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23262" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Insofar as the hold that there is one God who is the cause of all things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23263" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although if our concepts change because of what we predicate of them (as, for example, being from Physics -> Metaphysics), one could argue that someone who explicitly denies the Trinity (rather than merely remain agnostic about it) worships a different God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If someone denies that there is immaterial being, I do not think that his account of being is false, only incomplete.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23265" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^BIG difference.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23266" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if they think being is necessarily material?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23267" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">After all, first operation can err because of the second and third operations.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23268" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would say, "I understand why you would say that. It is hard to see that there is immaterial being."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23269" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But our account of material being would be the same.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23270" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">essentially.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23271" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not as though I would wonder if we were talking about the same thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23272" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it was Lawrence Krauss talking about nothing, I would wonder if we were talking about the same thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23273" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_23274" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23275" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scotus is interesting on the concept of being.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23276" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He basically says that being is a concept that is simple in such a way that you can't think of it incorrectly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But then he goes on to say that no one except the metaphysician ever thinks "being" in second actuality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23278" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is something true about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe not that part.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23280" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, the concept of being is held in habitual cognition by everyone and somehow drives all concept formation that person does: which explains why, ultimately, every attentive philosopher comes to the same categories.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23281" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Behind this all is his theory of abstraction: he thinks that when the intellect abstracts, it abstracts all the intelligibility of the thing (since both the agent intellect and the phantasm act as natural agents and natural agents always act to the utmost of their power). However, most of that abstracted intelligibility is just stored in the possible intellect and we only think the most specific species of the sensible that most strongly affects our senses (e.g. whiteness, or the note A, or some such)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23282" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weird.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23283" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(177, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the thing is, he's really good at arguing against other people's positions and for his own.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23284" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. The little I know and am familiar with Scotus, he was a really smart guy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Intellectually mal-formed, but smart.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23286" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 97%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My guess is he had a very strong power of imagination.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've always thought something like his notion of habitual cognition has to be behind the way the cogitative power works: somehow the power of the intellect has to be in that power so it can provide appropriate material to be abstracted from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23288" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know Scotus well enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23289" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have a friend here at the ITI who used to be a follower of Scotus, and knows him quite well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23290" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like to sit in on a conversation between the two of you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23291" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Basically, "habitual cognition" what he calls all the intelligible forms which are held in the potential intellect but not thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23293" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, for Scotus, they somehow direct thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23294" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, to me, there seems to be something right about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23295" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In what way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23296" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that, in certain circumstances, the first actuality of the intellect somehow directs human operation.<br />For one thing, I'm inclined to think that the possible intellect is, in its initial state, in remote potency to most intelligible forms/concepts just as prime matter is to most corporeal forms; This is why the first concepts we form are so vague: vague concepts are the only one's proportional to our intellect's natural potency.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That seems plausible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23298" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I would have to think about it more.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23299" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see how else to block the argument that the agent intellect is a natural intellect and, as such, always acts to the utmost of its power: the agent intellect can't change, so any limitation on it's power has to come from the passive principle that corresponds to it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23300" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I see the appeal of the position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23301" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">However, it seems one can also attribute the limitation on the agent intellect to its object, namely the phantasm .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Some phantasms can only possess so much intelligibility.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23303" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ergo, we can only form a vague concept.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23304" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know if that's sufficient.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23305" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think what we are saying is contradictory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23307" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For one thing, Aquinas talks about angels being able to illumine phantasms in such a way that we can abstract from them better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23308" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So that would seem to be a strengthening of the agent intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23309" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, thus, the limitation can't be wholly on the side of the possible intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23310" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T03:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T03:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">phantasm, that is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, we can say that the angel is actually supplying intelligibility to the phantasm itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is why the object of the illumination is the phantas,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T03:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T03:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This would seem to be within the power of the angel, since the angel knows the nature of thing directly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23314" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. without abstraction from the phantasm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23315" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, as I think about it, this position makes more sense to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23316" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, if the angel is strengthening the agent intellect, it would make it more able to impress on the possible intellect as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, it doesn't seem demonstrative to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23318" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, i think what I have said can hardly be described as demonstrative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23319" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But now you have given me something to dwell upon and perhaps write about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23320" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's some texts:</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23321" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Albert: Ad id quod ulterius quaeritur, puto sine praejudicio esse dicendum, quod daemon non injicit in animam sui Prophetae species, sed potius de existentibus ibi elicit intellectum novum futurorum. Est enim de speciebus et litteris aliquo modo simile: quia sicut eaedem litterae diversimode combinatae et ordinatae faciunt comoedias et tragoedias: ita etiam eaedem species diversimode ordinatae exprimunt diversa praesentia, praeterita, et futura. Sicut enim dicit Philosophus in II de Somno et vigilia: Sensibus ligatis per somnum, efficitur intellectus agens potens ut extrahat de phantasmatibus quaedam signa futurorum, in quibus accipiuntur praenosticationes: ita dici potest, quod applicatio luminis naturalis quo viget intellectus daemonis ad lumen intellectus Prophetae falsi, elicit quaedam quae ostendunt futura, et aliquando vera, et aliquando falsa, semper autem cum intentione fallendi: et hoc modo est inspiratio falsi Prophetae. (In II Sentent. Dis. VII. E, Art. 3. ed. Borgnet)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23322" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas: Ea vero quae ipsi Daemones praecognoscunt, revelare possunt, non quidem obji- ciendo se animae sicut in speculum, in quo videntur quae in speculo relucent, ut quidam dicunt: quia anima humana, ad minus secundum statum viae, non videt ea quae sunt a materia separata, nisi quatenus ex phantasmatibus in eorum cognitionem venit. Nec iterum species quae sunt in intellectu angelico, sunt proportionatae intellectui humano, cum multo simpliciores sint, et universaliores. Unde sicut species quae sunt in intellectu imaginatio non potest comprehendere, nec sensus species quae sunt in imaginatione; ita nec intellectus humanus, secundum statum viae, species quae sunt in intellectu angelico. Sed Angelus bonus vel malus aliter ea quae cognoscit, revelare potest, scilicet per appli- cationem luminis sui ad phantasmata, sicut applicatur lumen intellectus agentis, ut ex eis quaedam intentiones in intellectu eliciantur; et quanto lumen fuerit fortius et perfectius, tanto plures et certiores cognitiones elicientur. Et ideo ex phantasmatibus illustratis lumi- ne angelico resultat aliquorum cognitio in intellectu possibili hominis, ad quam eliciendam illustratio intellectus agentis humani non sufficeret, cum lumen ejus sit debilius lumine Angeli. (Super Sent., lib. 2 d. 7 q. 2 a. 2 co.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23323" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(notice, comments on the same texts)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23324" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also notice in Aquinas: "Sed Angelus bonus vel malus aliter ea quae cognoscit, revelare potest, scilicet per appli- cationem luminis sui ad phantasmata, sicut applicatur lumen intellectus agentis, ut ex eis quaedam intentiones in intellectu eliciantur"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23325" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas: "Ad sextum dicendum, quod mali Angeli cogitationes immittunt illustrando phanta- smata... Non tamen intellectus cogitur eas accipere: quia praeter objectum et potentiam cognoscentem, exigitur ad actualem cognitionem intentio cognoscentis vel per sensum vel per intellectum... Sed boni Angeli etiam directe in intellectum imprimere possunt: quia, secundum Augustinum, operantur in intelligentias nostras miris quibusdam modis. Hoc autem est inquantum lumen intellectus agentis nostri confortatur per intellectuale lumen ipsorum. Sed hoc daemonibus non competit: quia quamvis naturale lumen eorum sit effi- cacius quam lumen intellectus nostri, tamen lumine gratiae non sunt perfecti, sed tenebris culpae obumbrati; et ideo non intendunt judicium rationis nostrae rectificare per confor- mationem intellectualis luminis, sed aliqua nobis ostendere ex quibus decipiamur, quod faciunt phantasmata illustrando. (Super Sent., lib. 2 d. 8 q. 1 a. 5 ad 6)"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23326" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"luminis sui ad phantasmata" would seem to support the position that the agent intellect is not being strengthened, but its object is being made more intelligible.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23327" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the angel is working "sicut lumen intellectus agentis" which seems to mean that there is more intelligibility in the phantasms than our own intellect can access.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23328" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(since our agent intellects don't provide intelligible content but only intelligibility)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23329" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23330" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas: Angelus vero, quia naturaliter habet lumen intellectuale perfectius quam homo, ex utraque parte potest homini esse causa sciendi; tamen inferiori modo quam Deus, et superiori quam homo. Ex parte enim luminis, quamvis non possit intellectuale lumen in- fundere, ut Deus facit, potest tamen lumen infusum confortare ad perfectius inspiciendum. Omne enim quod est in aliquo genere imperfectum, quando continuatur perfectiori in ge- nere illo, magis confortatur virtus eius; sicut etiam videmus in corporibus, quod corpus locatum confortatur per corpus locans, quod comparatur ad ipsum ut actus ad potentiam, ut habetur IV Physic. (Quaestiones de Veritate Q. 11, a. 3, co.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 27%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(what's missing in that quote, I think, is him saying that the angel can form phantasms by acting on the body)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23332" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But doesn't the angel, by illuminating the phantasm simply supply intelligibility about the thing that it knows better and in a higher way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23333" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think what it does is, by strengthening the agent intellect, make the phantasm more abstract material to be abstracted from.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23334" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's what the QDV seems to indicate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23335" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(91, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Insofar as the phantasm falls away from the thing itself, it must be deficient in intelligibility. The angel can illumine the phantasm by making the falling away of the phantasm less.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23336" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That kind of help, though, doesn't seem to be "ex parte luminis".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right? A stronger light makes the colors more visible but doesn't change them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23339" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">(at least, ideally)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(201, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But angels do not just have a stronger light. They have a more perfect light</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is more life a full spectrum light compared to a black light</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, in this text, the angelic light works though our own light.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23343" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I admit it does seem like that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23344" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I understood this analogy better: "sicut etiam videmus in corporibus, quod corpus locatum confortatur per corpus locans, quod comparatur ad ipsum ut actus ad potentiam, ut habetur IV Physic."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23345" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suppose it's just saying that bodies are preserved by remaining in their natural place.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23346" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, that is what I am thinking about too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23347" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I collected a bunch of texts by Albert and Thomas on the illumination of the phantasms in order to compare their views of abstraction for a paper.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23348" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was wondering how these quotes came so quickly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23349" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The paper was marred because I wrote it for a historicist professor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23350" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, I stayed away from making actual philosophical judgments.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23351" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Meh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23352" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jon Andrew" data-date="2014-09-27T04:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jon Andrew at 2014-09-27T04:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Greig ^ I feel your pain</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23353" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Could you send me the paper?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23354" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it was the easiest 12 pages I ever wrote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23355" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T04:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T04:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would like the paper if only for the references. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23356" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is where I got Albert: http://albertusmagnus.uwaterloo.ca/<br />Alberti Magni e-corpus<br />Albertus Magnus (ca. 1200 – 1280) is one of the most important medieval philosophers and theologians, and...<br />ALBERTUSMAGNUS.UWATERLOO.CA<br />September 27 at 4:41am · Like · Remove Preview<br />Daniel Lendman By the way, Edward, have you run the stats on TNET recently?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23357" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T04:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T04:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will, have to get some sleep first.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23358" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Nutley" data-date="2014-09-27T05:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Nutley at 2014-09-27T05:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Normal Songs" i.e. Songs Against Modernity. If you know any, add them to the list. Help me TNET, you're my only hope.<br />https://www.facebook.com/richardnutley/posts/10100100596990307</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23359" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T06:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T06:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please block Scott.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23360" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T07:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T07:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, thanks for your thoughts the other night. I'm sorry I was not around to respond. I will check out Craycraft.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23361" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T07:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(16, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T07:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, when did you visit Chicago as a child? I was there from 1978 to 1986. It seems like there was a brutal heatwave every summer . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T07:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T07:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, it would have been in the early 90s.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23363" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T08:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T08:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess it was not I then. It occurs to me that it was probably my older brother, Doug, who still lives in Chicago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23364" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T08:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That might be. Is he a lawyer?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23365" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T08:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T08:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23366" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T08:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T08:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I suspect your father and my brother are friends and that is why you sought shelter there during the heatwave.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23367" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T08:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T08:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's probably right. Is your sister-in-law an art historian or something like that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23368" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T08:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T08:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. Small world, eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23369" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T08:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T08:10:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">A little while ago I sat next to someone at a concert in Vienna who happened to be a former student of Dr. McArthur's at St Mary's. He said there are probably only a few hundred people in the world, the rest being merely painted on. I suspect he is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23370" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T08:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T08:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I guess they call that CGI today. . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23371" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T08:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(236, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T08:16:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Another beautiful connection brought to us by TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23372" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T09:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T09:30:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^^ interesting premise for a sci-fi story</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23373" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T09:44:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">Plot: Spaceman discovers his earth brother gave refuge to a lost child suffering from heatstroke in the 1990s due to global warming. The child, once grown, reveals to Spaceman through TNET that most humans are CGI only, and together they set out to expose a plot against humanity traced back to James Madison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T09:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We played a fun game last night at craft night. It was "guess everybody's Myers-briggs personality type."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T09:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's do that here.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23376" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T09:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know Myers-Briggs is pseudo-science and everything. But still fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23377" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T09:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T09:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ok. To begin with. Everyone here is an "N"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Literally every person</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23379" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">even though 'N's supposedly make up about 35% of the population</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23380" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T10:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lol</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T10:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T10:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">entj</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23382" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff!! Me too! High five!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're probably also mostly "T"s</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23384" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF-- INTP?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23385" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T10:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T10:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also a heavily "t" bunch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23386" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T10:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T10:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uh, int something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23387" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Instead of finishing my Familiaris Consortio talk I have been looking through Jstor and Google books for stuff on medieval literacy. Fascinating stuff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T10:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea, I've never taken one of those tests.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23389" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine Joliat Feil-- do you know?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23390" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I likewise have no idea what Myers-Briggs thing I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23391" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What did you find out, Pater?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund is an INTP also, would be my guess</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23393" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had to take this test this week for work, so I'm fresh</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23394" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Introvert vs. Extrovert is a bit hard to tell on tNET, this being the internet and everything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23395" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">J is "Judging," basically, do you have your sh*t together? Or does Catherine Joliat Feil keep it together for you? if the later, you're a "P" perceiver</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, probably everybody her is an "NT" and the maybe mostly Introverts, too</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T10:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always get ENTP or something else - I forget which one - but only one letter changes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson-- I was going to guess ENTP for you. I am so good at this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My guess for Michael Beitia is also ENTP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll take a test later.... but from the wiki, I think there's a J in there somewhere</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23401" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, though, might be an ENFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">OK, revised guess is ENTJ</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23403" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, scratch that, Daniel Lendman is an ENFJ</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23404" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But maybe close on the Feeling vs. Thinking, like me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23405" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems like everyone is off having a more fun Saturday morning than I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23406" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak is also an ENTP, I would guess</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23407" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T10:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to take my kids to soccer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23408" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ugh, so do I but not for an hour</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23409" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">soccer is the worst</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23410" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-27T10:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-27T10:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have to move furniture in 30 minutes. Then I have to tutor three students on papers which are due in three days and I guarantee they just started them. Hope you feel better about your day, Samantha. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23411" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T10:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T10:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, then "p" for sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23412" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Soccer seems like the worst today now that Everton have got a last minute equalizer in the Merseyside Derby https://twitter.com/natefc/status/515857812279148547<br />oh you beauty on Twitter: "FT 1-1. that is some unbelievable bullshit and is exactly something...<br />FT 1-1. that is some unbelievable bullshit and is exactly something that would happen in 2009-10 and I really hate this season so far<br />TWITTER.COM|BY OH YOU BEAUTY</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23413" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-27T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-27T10:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss I'm grading English 211 papers. Everyone in the world is having more fun than I am.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23414" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, what I found out about medieval literacy: there has been a lot of challenging of the received wisdom recently, partly due to Noone's point about "literatus" meaning someone who could read read and write Latin well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23415" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is a lot of variation over the centuries, and a lot of disagreement about what the evidence means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23416" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But a lot of people, even peasants, knew a little Latin, and could read a little without being able to write.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23417" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:48:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Interestingly in England, you had a lot of vernacular literature before the Norman conquest (Alfred the Great's New Testament trans. etc., and then after almost everything is Latin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23418" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's one of the more interesting pieces: http://books.google.at/books?id=Rv_QzOML3U0C&lpg=PA9...<br />Literacy and Historical Development<br />BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23419" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T10:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T10:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">More on soccer today: "If you don't laugh, you're gonna cry and maybe explode and maybe go on a murderous rampage, so I recommend laughing." http://ohyoubeauty.blogspot.co.at/.../liverpool-1-1...<br />oh you beauty: Liverpool 1-1 Everton<br />OHYOUBEAUTY.BLOGSPOT.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23420" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T10:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T10:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, Saturday mornings are for sleeping. Everyone knows this. Now I'm starting up slowly with some coffee and TNET, which has led me to read up on Myers-Briggs tests.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23421" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:50:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean, spoken like a non-parent</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23422" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T10:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha, yes, I realized after I wrote that that it sounds like bragging.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23423" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T10:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T10:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not intended!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23424" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I read a chapter of that Literacy and Historical Development book just now, Pater Edmund</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23425" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T10:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T10:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems like the "knowing a little Latin" just means knowing the Pater Noster and the Credo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23426" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T11:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T11:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So from a quick wiki read, I am INTsomething. I think INTP, but the P/J distinction was not very clear to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23427" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just got back from dropping four kids off at swim lessons, and eating a donut with the fifth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23428" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 95%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean-- do you like to be spontaneous? Are you one of those terrible late-all-the-time people? Do you hate planning? Then you might be a "P"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Definitely a J, in that case.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23430" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If, on the other hand, you function well in the world, have a rational approach to organizing your life, and like to know what to expect, then you are probably a "J"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ENFJ according to the test I just took</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23432" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T11:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, definitely INTJ.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23433" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">the above explanation might be colored a bit by my extreme pro-"J" preference</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">an F, eh Michael? Interesting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ENFJ on the second one. <br />Extravert(67%) iNtuitive(25%) Feeling(12%) Judging(11%)<br />You have distinct preference of Extraversion over Introversion (67%)<br />You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (25%)<br />You have slight preference of Feeling over Thinking (12%)<br />You have slight preference of Judging over Perceiving (11%)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T11:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T11:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just took a test, Samantha, and this was the result:<br />Extravert(33%) iNtuitive(50%) Feeling(38%) Judging(22%)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YES!! I knew it!!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23438" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, don't you feel known?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23439" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T11:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not really...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23440" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like Walker Percy's "Lost in the Cosmos"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23441" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, I got Michael wrong, but I don't actually know him.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23442" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T11:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T11:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I mean, yes. But in another way, not so much.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23443" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">can anyone know anyone else?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23444" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T11:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Not until he knows himself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23445" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you read "Lost..." by Percy? the cultural references are dated, but it is an interesting book nonetheless</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23446" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T11:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's reductive pseudo-science, but I definitely think it's measuring *something* legit</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23447" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T11:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T11:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I prefer the temperaments as a model, better. 4 basic temperaments, with various combinations. Indefinite personality possibilities.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23448" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T11:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am INTJ: no test needed. #INTJselfgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23449" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">oooh I just found out I'm sanguine! these personality tests certainly tell a lot....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23450" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha = JJJJ. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23451" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T11:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">INTJ<br />Introvert(100%) iNtuitive(38%) Thinking(62%) Judging(67%)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I could kill a few minutes screwing around with these</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T11:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T11:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Temperamentally speaking I am Choleric/Melancholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T11:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T11:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even though in this case it might not be a good thing, I still feel good for scoring 100% on part of that test.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23455" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 82%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T11:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow strong scores. Probably not the person that would high five a comets stranger.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T11:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T11:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Which test did you take for the percentages?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T11:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp<br />Personality test based on C. Jung and I. Briggs Myers type theory<br />Personality test based on C. Jung and I. Briggs Myers...<br />HUMANMETRICS.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23458" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T11:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was just the first one that came up on Google.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">time to pick up the kids from swimming....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23460" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T11:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">is melancholic choleric. . . . but the point of knowing one's temperament is to strive to become even tempered. Why Briggs Myers = Jungian self affirmative fail</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23461" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-27T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-27T11:37:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss I dislike the temperaments. I get a different answer every time I take it, depending on my mood, or how drunk I am, or what I've had to do in my life in order to get by. I'm a melancholic choleric phlegmatic sanguine, and there you have it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-27T11:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-27T11:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Astrology, however, is fun.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-27T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-27T11:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss John - if that's the point, why then, I have succeeded. Hooray! Self-affirmation for me!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T11:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T11:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Extravert(89%) iNtuitive(88%) Thinking(75%) Judging(56%)<br />I don't think it is to strive to be even tempered, just how to relate to others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23465" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T11:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T11:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">should say Briggs ends with diagnosis: embrace yourself and your intjness. And you're an INTJ in denial, Rebecca. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23466" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-27T11:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-27T11:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">now everybody do the enneagram one because I'm curious...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T11:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">no. In the secret radtrad tradition temperaments were used as a means to aid in spiritual direction. And even temperment was word of praise. Good stuff. All i am saying. @Jeff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T11:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T11:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">enneagram?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23469" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-27T11:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-27T11:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there are nine types, everyone has a type for the way they relate to themselves, the world, and how they actually think. here's a short quiz http://www.enneagramquiz.com/quiz.html<br />Comprehensive Enneagram Quiz<br />This quiz takes approximately 3 or 4 minutes to complete. Remember, the test can only be as accurate as the...<br />ENNEAGRAMQUIZ.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Nina Rachele" data-date="2014-09-27T11:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Nina Rachele at 2014-09-27T11:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not sure I explained it very well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritype The other enneagram theory is that you are a type that leans towards one or the other of the neighboring types. So, I am a six wing five, for example.<br />Tritype - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />The term Tritype refers to a theory regarding the Enneagram of Personality and was coined by Enneagram researcher and coach Katherine Chernick Fauvre[1] and later developed further in association with David W. Fauvre. The word tritype was formed from Latin, with the prefix tri meaning three,[2] and…<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23471" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T12:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">enneagrams = geometric spirituality on wings. Probably started when desert monks found those manna 'shrooms Peterson mentioned a thread age ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23472" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T12:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T12:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">okay..... 8w7 6w5 2w1</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23473" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T12:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T12:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ #shroommathgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23474" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T12:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T12:05:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">I've never heard anyone who likes the four temperaments refer to themselves as anything but choleric, melancholic or combination of the two. Usually those who fancy themselves melancholic love it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23475" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T12:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T12:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Depending on how I take the M-Bs it flips one letter, which seems realistic. But still a bit asinine.<br />And don't get me started on the whole extrovert/ introvert thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23476" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T12:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T12:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but phlegmatics \ sanguine are not interested by temperament. . . . . . and melancholic (\ cholerics) make the tests. . . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23477" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T12:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T12:11:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . and rule the world or try to. To be precise, cholerics conquer the world, melancholics talk about it or brood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23478" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-27T12:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-27T12:12:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It'd be much cooler if sanguine were said as a temperament with it's other meaning. Charles Bronson would be the mascot.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T12:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T12:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cholerics praise and imitate Madison. Melancholics criticize idols. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23480" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T12:33:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I have myself completely circumscribed:<br />Sanguine/choleric<br />ENFJ<br />8w7 6w5 2w1<br />put all those personality tests together and you get: big jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23481" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T12:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">That means you and I are basically the same Michael... but that can't be right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23482" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T12:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T12:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Michael Beitia / Daniel Lendman - but then - we knew that already.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23483" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T12:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T12:33:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">that' we're both big jerks? at least I'm a sanguine happy go lucky big jerk</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23484" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(209, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T12:40:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Samantha I took the test, and was slightly impressed to see that you guessed right: INTP.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23485" class="entry odd" data-likes="8" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-27T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-27T12:41:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the test that The Neverending Thread should really be taking is this: http://uquiz.com/jyoHiC<br />Which Early Christian Heresy Are You?<br />"Catholic theology followed a fairly well defined direction. Its path was not from the outset as broad and straight,...<br />UQUIZ.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23486" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T12:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T12:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am dogmatically, empathetic, angry, jerk.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23487" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T13:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T13:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">. . . . . shouldn't that be updated, Pater? to which Council Father?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23488" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T13:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, that quiz must have been designed by Salvador Dali.<br />Anyways, I'm Monophysitism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23489" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund:<br />I said: <br />"The high Middle Ages failed. Centuries of fighting for power against the oppressive state led to coveting state power. This led to the abominable corruption of the Church, replete with wicked Popes, and this led to the reformation and the "enlightenment"."<br />You said: "Can we at least admit that this is a highly simplistic and contentious interpretation of the High Middle Ages?"<br />1) Well, I suppose the so-called "Reformation" just up and happened out of the blue? Bad reformation. Bad enlightenment. The Other just up and came out of nowhere. Not the Church's fault at all? Heh. Whatever floats our prejudices. But I often argue about how complicated and varied the period was, and I freely admit that the history is up for grabs. But that works both ways. Let's not pretend like those arguing it was good don't paint cartoons the same way enlightenment propaganda does.<br />2) But what I find even more interesting about your response is this: you don't want to automatically ascribe the cause of the reformation and the enlightenment to what I identify as the prior cause. Fair enough. But maybe you and others should apply that sound bit of logic to "Modernity" and American history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23490" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:11:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed Langley, we were discussing earlier the metaphor and whether it could be a demonstration. I wanted to point you to Book 3 of Aristotle's Rhetoric where he says the metaphor is a rhetorical demonstration of the greatest clarity. Now an enthymeme is a demonstration; and a metaphor is an enthymeme of the greatest clarity. I also wanted to give you a few examples. You may recall President Reagan's famous demonstrative metaphor: "America is a city on a hill"; the demonstration being that a city on a hill is eminently worthy of defense, America is a city on a hill, therefore America is eminently worth defending. Another example is that "a good education is water in the desert"; the demonstration is that water in the desert is rare and valuable; education is water in the desert, therefore education is valuable. Another example of a persuasive and demonstrative metaphor is that "a man who must always be right is like a child carrying a loaded weapon."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23491" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T13:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T13:14:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, a "rhetorical demonstration" is equivocal with the sense of demonstration that was under question at the time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23492" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. John Ruplinger. We were talking earlier about whether George Washington and the Founding Fathers believed in the same God as we do. It seems to me quite clear that we do, and that this question is one which seems strange to ask. Here is the famous prayer of George Washington, I wanted to present to you:<br />"Almighty God, and most merciful father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise thee for thy protection both night and day, receive, O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to thee; I yield thee humble and hearty thanks that thou has preserved me from the danger of the night past, and brought me to the light of the day, and the comforts thereof, a day which is consecrated ot thine own service and for thine own honor. Let my heart, therefore, Gracious God, be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works, but wait on thee, and discharge those weighty duties thou requirest of me, and since thou art a God of pure eyes, and wilt be sanctified in all who draw near unto thee, who doest not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in thy courts, pardon, I beseech thee, my sins, remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into thy temple, and compass thine altar, my prayers may come before thee as incense; and as thou wouldst hear me calling upon thee in my prayers, so give me grace to hear thee calling on me in thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of the soul in the day of the Lord Jesus. Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me, Gracious God, the good work for which thou has sent it. Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God & guide this day and for ever for his sake, who ay down in the Grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23493" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T13:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T13:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Man, that soccer took a lot out of me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23494" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, I believe you had stated that an enthymeme was a kind of demonstration in no equivocal sense. The examples I provide immediately above, as well as book 3 of Artistotle's Rhetoric, also seem to support the idea that a metaphor when used as an enthymeme, is a very clear kind of demonstration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23495" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T13:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm more inclined to think well of George Washington than of most of the other founders: for one thing, he's one of the few historical figures that refused power offered to him (being made a king) and willingly giving up the power he did get (setting the precedent for two term presidency: a precedent that lasted as a tradition without legal force until FDR).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23496" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T13:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T13:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I got Pelagianism, but that was embarrassing to me, so let me take it again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23497" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T13:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">to question 1, definitely b) defend myself with a flame thrower</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whatever I had said about enthymeme before, I don't think either enthymeme or metaphor have the kind of necessity required for knowledge, in the strict sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Agree.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23500" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T13:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The important question, Samantha, is the one about the Montpelier codex.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23501" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:23:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond:<br />"Returning to the problem of embracing division as a principle, which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully unfolds, it is worth noting that 'divide and conquer' has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a people."<br />Well, that's a method that any leader uses who wants to win, and it is not intrinsically evil in any way, shape, or form.<br />"In Federalist 51, Madison employs this principle with a vengeance: 'This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public. We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to DIVIDE and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the other--that the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public rights.'"<br />This is, to me, common sense. And virtually any government that lasts more than 5 minutes employs such logic. Any government. In a school, in a family, and elsewhere, one ties pride, honor, and self-interest to institutions and functions in order to bring about the public good and order self-interest towards something greater.<br />But as to the division here - the separation of powers among the three branches - this for the founding generation is not arbitrary. As I tell my classes, they do not view "POWER" as a block of ice to be chopped up and divided for the sake of mere checks for checks sake. The three branches represent three very different KINDS of power. It is a very different thing to be a judge than a representative, and another thing entirely to be an executive official, etc. So this division has a basis in reality given the nature of governmental power. But yet, one does tie the interest of a participant in each branch to the branch in question. That's common sense.<br />This is why, when old Senator Byrd was asked what it was like to serve under so many presidents, he looked askance at Charlie Rose, and said "Served WITH." That's healthy for the Republic, and any form of government. The best Monarchies employed much the same principle, in which different kinds of authority and power were given their due.<br />If you do want to just depend on the virtue and love of the common good simply, society would fall apart. The very idea is absurd. This isn't how virtue is attained. This is giving everyone the ring of gyges. If you want to build up virtue, you hold people accountable and let them know they will be held accountable. You use their native sense of shame. You don't create occasions of sin. A teacher in a classroom will take steps to prevent teaching. A parent will take steps to prevent abuse of the internet. You don't simply depend on virtue. In fact, you assist virtue by taking these measures.<br />But what the remarks above miss is the very thrust of the Constitution, which is to create a unitary government over the rest that UNIFIES the nation and that very much does depend ultimately on the virtue of the people and the fact that the Federalists think they will attain more virtuous leaders in the federal government. <br />In fact, the Anti-Federalists didn't like this dependence on virtue and love of the common good. It made them nervous. And thus Madison is calming them down with his argument about how the federal goverment will help steer clear of what they fear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23502" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T13:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T13:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Proust is overrated</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23503" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond:<br />"Since the legislative authority necessarily predominates in a republican government, the remedy is to DIVIDE it into different branches."<br />Yes, and if you read any Federalists, including Madison and Hamilton, as to WHY this is a good thing you would discover arguments that, again, speak of different kinds of power qualitatively and how bicameralism assists deliberation and promotes the public good and protects minority rights.<br />This is a commonplace at the time. You needed a more aristocratic Senate to slow things down, and the Federalist Papers and scads of other writings at the time give plenty of real examples of how two legislative bodies with different characters will lead to better deliberation over what is truly good and mitigate against "might is right" democratic majoritarianism.<br />So the "division" is for the sake of unity, and for the sake of deliberation over what truly ought to be done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Indeed, Madison seems to use this tactic to protect the federal government against faction, AND to protect individual freedoms. It is just a tactic in his noble strategy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23505" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AGH Pelagianism again!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, why were you only slightly impressed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23507" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I sing of TNET, and a man of threads...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems without division, there is no balance of powers. One focal point would become too heavy and tip the scales always in the direction of its own interests.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond:<br /><<"As for the government as a whole: "In the compound republic of America, the power surrendered by the people is first DIVIDED between two distinct governments, and then the portion allotted to each subDIVIDED among distinct and separate departments." Finally, society itself "will be BROKEN into so many parts, interests and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority." The problem here is not so much the fact that a government would have different branches or centers of authority. Many governments long before the American experiment had similar divisions. The problem is Madison's willingness to so thoroughly embrace division as a principle in the absence of any apparent concern for "better motives." As he famously wrote, "Ambition must be made to counter ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place." This spirit of division and contention is so thoroughly embraced that it breeds and gives license to a people and statesmen who are indifferent to virtue and self-restraint. After all, one serves the "general good" when one acts ambitiously, or so we are taught. Every American schoolboy from time immemorial as been taught to sing the praises of the saving graces of "checks and balances," as if the system alone were sufficient to replace the need for virtue.>><br />This is simply false. This hollow checks and balances interpretation that Bond speaks of really comes from the 1950s, and the materialist vaguely Marxist approach of Beard before the Straussians and friends started interpreting the founding in terms of the defects of post-WWII America.<br />Schoolboys were NOT taught this. The founding generation did NOT teach this. People centuries later grabbed Madison and other's AUXILIARY PRECAUTIONS that amount to common sense and took them as a political treatise. No major founder thought this. The best you can do is uncharitably read two texts, two stones from the mountain ranges of documents from the time to wring this out of the founding era.<br />This spirit of division is not our problem. That we are divided on the highest things, and the deepest things, that is a problem. But it is NOT caused by what has allowed our government to last, in part: the separation of powers, or our three branches, or the fact that those within those branches tie their self-interest to the respective branch to which they belong and the job they happen to embrace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T13:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T13:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ed, it seems to me the reason metaphorical and rhetorical demonstrations do not have the kind of necessity for knowledge in the strict sense is because they deal with topics that are not scientific in a strict sense. They are, however, reasonable, according to Aristotle in Book 3, and require a speaker who in logical and moral and aware of the emotions of his audience. These other demonstrations -- enthymeme and metaphor -- deal with the will and imagination, respectively. Whereas the syllogism is a form of reason in the strict sense and the intellect. All three are similar in form, as they are also formally similar to the rational soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond<br /><<In Choruses from the Rock, T.S. Eliot had this to say about men like Madison and his Enlightenment friends.<br />They constantly try to escape<br />From the darkness outside and within<br />By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good.<br />But the man that is shall shadow<br />The man that pretends to be.<br />This profound poetic insight brings us to the heart of the Enlightenment project and the Madisonian proposal to turn away from virtue to embrace a system that seizes on ambition and harnesses it to achieve the so-called "common good.">>><br />Again, the fact one builds in auxiliary precautions is just common sense. The fact one harnesses ambition doesn't prove that one has abandoned virtue or the common good, and a century post-Madison of American culture and history reveals that virtue and religion were NOT so abandoned.<br /><<I therefore do not find persuasive Matthew J. Peterson's argument that Madison's proposal is made on behalf of justice and the common good simply because he employs these terms. Madison says in Federalist 10 that "Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit." But what does Madison mean by "justice"? Based on this passage and others like it, it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with liberty. For Madison, justice is not, as St. Thomas defined it, "a habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual will." Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are due, as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the interstices.>><br />This is illogical. You do want to write off the plain language of Madison and friends. But in this you are remarkably Straussian, no? If you want to prove the esoteric meaning of these words, you must bring a bit more to the table. <br />The passage you cite does NOT equate liberty with justice. In fact, one cannot make sense of it if that is the case. The passage you cite reveals that Madison does NOT equate liberty with justice - it proves MY point. What he means is that we treasure justice so much, that we will give up liberty and self-government in the pursuit of it. He is referring to demagogues and tyrants who arise in the midst of radically democratic mayhem and INJUSTICE, which is what he specifically complains of in the states, repeatedly. <br />If things continue this way, and radically unstable democratic majorities continue to act unjustly, not rendering people their due (and Madison can give you specific examples), then Madison fears that people will elect tyrants to keep the peace, as western political philosophy warns of.<br /><<And so we are left with Eliot's question: <br />What life have you, if you have not life together?<br />There is not life that is not in community,>><br />So the Federalists sought the unity that would come with a stronger federal government. Out of many, one. But no sane person thought that bond could entail a religious unity leading to the last, best, and highest end of man. First, because the size and extent of the government would make that tricky. But most obviously because of their disagreements about such. Yet there are still many a facet of the common good that the federal government could help achieve.<br />And, of course, even today it does indeed legislate about morality (drugs, abortion, marriage, discrimination against minorities, etc.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23512" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T13:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, I am discussing the very thing on another thread. We've only touched some of the difficulties and seem close to an impass. I decline to "discuss" it with you. I am glad to see you show how metaphor can be used as enthymeme.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF: "What is the point of reading the Federalists, Matthew J. Peterson? Historical curiosity? Getting to the true meaning of the constitution? Political philosophy?"<br />You sound so modern. Heh. Of course, so does Jeffrey. <br />I think the Federalist Papers still reveal the working principles of the regime, even with all the changes - and they reveal some principles that worked even if things have changed.<br />In the main, however, they correct false understandings of where we have been, and therefore how we came to where we are, and therefore help inform what ought to be done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23514" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond:<br />I said: "First off, if you hold that government can get rid of the latent causes of faction, methinks you should read some of that olde time Christian religion, and the words of Jesus Christ in the gospels, all of which suggest that something beyond human wrought laws is needed."<br />You say <br /><<I do not recall anyone saying that government can simply get rid of faction. But a few of us have faulted Madison for turning away from the traditional political art, the business of which is the care of souls, which art would require a statesman to concern himself with the causes of faction. That Madison rejected this ancient ideal is, I think, undeniable since in Federalist 10 Madison explicitly rejects dealing with causes of faction. (If Madison speaks or acts contrary to this principle elsewhere, that is another matter that I cannot address here at the moment.)>><br />Yes, Madison doesn't mean that there is NO way in which one can deal with the causes of faction. That is evident from his life and other writings. But he does appear to mean something like "you can't ultimately get rid of the causes of faction by means of a federal government or any government." And that just seems true, if we take Christianity seriously.<br />If you bother to expand outwards of your Straussian inherited Fed 10/51 myopia, you would see that the VERY POINT OF ESTABLISHING THE CONSTITUTION is to eradicate the causes of faction by erecting a strong central government that takes power over commerce OUT of state/radically democratic majority might makes right hands and puts it into a popular form that has more aristocratic elements. And to make all the states one. Out of many one. A UNION.<br />Again, all that is happening in 10 is a response to Brutus re large and small republic. But I've already driven down this road a few times.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23515" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T13:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T13:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson: I wrote: "Returning to the problem of embracing division as a principle, which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully unfolds, it is worth noting that 'divide and conquer' has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a people."<br />Your wrote in response: "Well, that's a method that any leader uses who wants to win, and it is not intrinsically evil in any way, shape, or form."<br />We certainly differ on this point, and perhaps here we are getting to the heart of our disagreement. I do not view leadership as winning, nor could I ever endorse "divide and conquer" as a principle. This is precisely what the Athenian Stranger finds in error at the root of the Spartan and Cretan regimes. Politics is not about winning. Politics is about unifying souls (individually and collectively) since the good of each depends on the good of all. Our happiness, because we are political by nature, requires an art that aims at the common good, and that art cannot start with the principle of divine and conquer and still be the political art. That is power politics and assumes the good of the leader (as he sees it) is to be gained at the expense of those ruled. I doubt you really endorse such ideas, but what you have written above is hard to interpret in any other way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23516" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T14:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T14:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ you just disagree with Jeffrey over what those principles are [several up already now that blows fall fast if not furious]. Moreover while criticizing Bond's myopia, you to focus on 10 and 51 as do most all teachers and students of the founding. I am not addressing any argument Matthew. Just pointing out that some of your strokes fall upon your own head as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T13:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T13:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But just in case, one. more. time.<br />Brutus the Anti-Federalist says the federal government will be too big. The question is large versus small republic.<br />Madison doesn't CREATE faction with the constitution. He doesn't DEPEND on it. He makes the point that the problem they face is MIGHT MAKES RIGHT majorities violating minority rights and contravening the common good of all. But, he says, a large republic will actually help prevent a BAD majority from forming. Of course, the majority will still rule. But with more interests, bad and good, these small factions will fight and much will be revealed. It will be harder for a bad majority to form or to implement its sinister designs once formed.<br />But the overarching argument is simply whether you have an overarching federal government or not. In small or large republic, you have faction. That's a fact of life. For Madison and the Federalists, the smaller and "more pure" democracies were full of might makes right majorities that couldn't be stopped. They hope that a federal government with better legislators and aristocratic elements, as well as an extending of the sphere, will help prevent the fatal flaw of government by the many.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23518" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, when you think what you want is the common good, and other side doesn't want this, you want to win. Yes. In a just war, you want to win. And you certainly divide and conquer, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.<br />In rhetoric, one does this by agreeing with people where and on what one can, and disagreeing where one disagrees. Sometimes one must prioritize which is more important. This is how coalitions are formed. This is how dialectic occurs. This is how we think outside of ourselves and our own thoughts and desires and begin to start thinking seriously about the common good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger: No idea how you know what I focus on. Heh. I'm just responding to what is thrust in front of me on the Book of Faces. There are a lot other Federalist Papers, and I teach a number of them. But I also bring in a lot of other works. Aristotle and Plato on democracy. Tocqueville. Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, Du Bois, Malcom X. Etc.<br />And I've pointed to multiple other texts by Madison and in the Fed Papers, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23520" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if you wanted to unify souls in early America, you would need one government over those souls, no? Heh. A UNION, as it were?<br />And if you wanted to unify those souls, you would have to do so in a government of the many by preventing them from joining to look at immediate interest and contravening the common good and violating the rights of minorities, no?<br />So having a larger government with a more diverse population, if set up such that all the groups could argue publicly about what is best for the whole, might help one along, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">coalitions generally form by compromise and coalescing different factions. Dialectic, however can end in agreement. That or a better understanding of what divides.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The point is NOT to divide and conquer. The point is that the ALREADY EXISTING DIVISIONS over all the colonies will fight each other and help prevent any one BAD division from becoming the law of the land. It's just an auxiliary and Madison says salutary byproduct of a larger government over a larger population and territory: moderation of majority tyranny.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23523" class="entry odd" data-likes="11" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-27T14:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-27T14:09:00 with 11 likes</div>
<p class="text">I tried to describe tNET to some non-FB tutors yesterday evening, but was unable to finish doing so because when I got to the name of our household troll, there was a violent explosion of merry groaning and laughter. #guessIshouldhaveseenthatcoming</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The problem is not that there won't be a majority on any given subject. Of course there will be a majority of people who think such and such. The question is how to prevent the majority from becoming tyrannical. When you are the one, or the few, or the many ultimately in charge in your regime form, you have no one to judge you. You judge yourself. And in a "pure democracy", which Brutus and the Anti-Feds think is ideal, the many rule without opposition, and this is unstable and radical and lacking an aristocratic element.<br />But, again, Madison doesn't create faction and debate in the public square. That already exists. His point is simply that in a larger republic, it will be harder for a tyrannical majority to form.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23525" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, with religious sects - there will be a majority there too, and Madison is indeed personally suspicious of any such religious majority. But the logic of the Constitution is simply that the only majority that will be able to form will be one that convinces everyone that it will not act unjustly or tyrannize religious minorities.<br />True, they wanted no established federal religion for obvious practical reasons. But this wasn't true of states and local communities. And the 1st amendment itself could be changed with a majority in agreement, obviously.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23526" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The real question is what Hamilton asks: if you think that a large republic like that of the Constitution is by nature somehow divisive and too dependent on factions, which is strange to me, then how small does it have to be? As he says, the states are already much larger than anything Aristotle has in mind. So you must want a number of tiny little ancient Greek style republics - but these are tyrannical and unstable, based on "pure democracy" which is generally disastrous without some other binding force.<br />An exception, perhaps, are the very democratic puritan colonies which are one of the best democratic examples of theocracy you can find in history.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23527" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">As you know, it doesn't matter whether my position comes from the Straussians or unicorns; what matters is whether it is true. But since you seem to believe that the reduction of my position to the Straussians weakens my argument, I guess I had better address this point. I first studied the Federalist Papers at Kenyon College under a professor who was a student of Martin Diamond. Diamond, as you know, was a socialist in his earlier life, but he "converted" to the Straussian position and the conservative Republican political agenda that often goes with it. But I do not agree with Diamond's read on the Federalist Papers, nor with any of the other Straussians, all of whom, in my experience, defend and laud Madison. Yes, they point out that he does not strive for the same nobility as the ancients, but they praise him nonetheless for creating a regime that is "lower but solid," or words to that effect. That is, Madison lowers the goal of politics but therefore more readily attains his object. Hence, Madison is to be admired, as you admire him, for being practical, prudent and realistic. But, as you now know well, I do not share this view of Madison. And my critique is quite other than that of the Straussians. I think Plato and Aristotle were fundamentally correct about the nature of politics and the human nature with which it is concerned. I do not think Madison shares Plato's and Aristotle's understanding, and in that respect at least my view is quite mainstream and hardly esoteric. What is not mainstream is my rejection of Madison for his misunderstanding of politics and human nature. That my position is not mainstream is hardly surprising, of course, since most political philosophers today share Madison's fundamental views, the result, no doubt, of the fact that they were raised and formed in the regime he created.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23528" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right. This reading of Madison is modern as the professors of today. They read their own calculation of interests and power politics into that of the founding era.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23529" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T14:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward Langley: Speaking of demonstration in the strict scientific sense, would you say that any of the infallible dogmas of sacred theology (revelation or the Church's infallible interpretation thereof) can be known in this way, that is, through a scientific demonstration?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23530" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T14:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, Matthew J. Peterson you both seem to be using "divide and conquer" in different ways.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23531" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:25:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Straussians I most disagree with, like you, never say what they wanted instead. With the federal government, you have two problems: 1) the people underneath it have different ideas about what the last, best, and highest end of humanity is. So there is no agreement. And 2) this sort of government over extended territory and diverse populations can only do so much and go so far anyhow, as it is largely concerned with more basic common goods by its very nature. Yet they did leave it open to "higher things." And we do flirt with such. But, again, we don't have agreement.<br />Things go pretty well while you have a general protestant agreement, and then protestantism largely breaks down, often throwing in with liberalism simply in pure form in order to counter Catholicism, which makes things worse. And so you get to where we are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T14:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, would you please explain why you think Madison does not share Plato's and Aristotle's notion of politics? Is it because you think Madison does not agree that politics is a natural good for man, or what is it agan?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23533" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the Straussians are quite content with Madison's regime, as long as the Republicans are in power.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T14:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T14:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry, I do not follow... how do you say Madison differs from A and P?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23535" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you are wrong about Madison creating a regime that is "open to higher things". He already has the highest thing protected: individual liberty. But to keep his version of the highest thing safe, Madison has to shut the door on any "faction" that would establish a truly common good. This, Matthew, is the core of our disagreement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23536" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is why I say that Madison created a super faction, all of whom agree that individual liberty is the highest good. Here is an example where the words "highest good" clearly do not have the same meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23537" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest good, they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23538" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, that is quite a leap: to say that Madison quelled faction that would cause a common good, and to say he created a super faction! What do you make of the Bill of Rights?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23539" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:31:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">All: Did TAC kill the link in the status on purpose? Should we relink to TAC? Or should I start linking to whatever the 'ell I want?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23540" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ideas welcome.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23541" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-27T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-27T14:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Um, what link is dead? Cause it worked for me if you mean "my radical "great booksy" alma mater, Thomas Aquinas College"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23542" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, it sure doesn't look like all agree that individual liberty is the highest good when I look to our laws. Heh. In fact, it seems that equality and liberty are always fighting each other, along with notions of very real and true common goods, regardless of means.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23543" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Boyer: that's my own tag - I'm speaking of the link to the theses.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23544" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-27T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-27T14:35:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha: so, when I moved to Atlanta after graduation, my dad had me meet with this businessman whom he knew. The hope was that he would give me a job, but alas, he was somewhat eccentric, and his idea of how to help me get ahead in the world was sending me to an industrial psychologist. So this guy gave me a bunch of personality tests (and declared me an INTJ), and then told me what I should be (a lawyer). I remain somewhat dubious about personality types in general. When I read the descriptions of INTJ traits, some of them sound like me, and some don't. It seems only slightly more precise than astrology to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23545" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For Madison it is liberty, but he did not fully anticipate the influence of Rousseau and the slow take over by the principle of equality that de Tocqueville feared.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23546" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-27T14:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-27T14:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Hmmm that's interesting.... Why would they remove the link?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23547" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-27T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-27T14:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/.../slideshow-2014-seniors...<br />Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles | Thomas Aquinas College<br />Each year, starting in the fall and continuing well into the...<br />THOMASAQUINAS.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23548" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We do agree on this, I suspect: the regime is coming apart, and the lovers of equality over liberty are in charge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23549" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-27T14:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-27T14:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did they just change it then?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23550" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Plato and Aristotle, knowing well the nature of the democratic soul, predicted this descent long ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23551" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liberty isn't so much a good, but rather the free space in society within which we can act.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23552" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Genuine liberty is a good, but false liberty certainly is not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23553" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T14:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, the highest principle in Madison's political philosophy is God the Creator of human liberty. If you are not willing to answer how you feel he disagrees with Aristotle, but instead make additional opinionated claims such as he failed to anticipate Rousseau, then it is increasingly difficult to follow your train of thought.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23554" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-27T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-27T14:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The link which Matthew put up was a shortened link. http://thaq.co/Y1uhlx<br />Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles | Thomas Aquinas College<br />Each year, starting in the fall and continuing well into the...<br />THOMASAQUINAS.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23555" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-27T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-27T14:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the link shortener link just died.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23556" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, that's a bold claim. ..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23557" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm sorry, Scott, but you came late to the party and you have to do some catching up on where the argument is now.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23558" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Madisonian politics is practical first and foremost and as such has no need for God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23559" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree Madisonian politics is fundamentally practical, but I do not agree it is practical to think one has no need for God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23560" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">For him it is Jeffrey Bond</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23561" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We certainly agree on that!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23562" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because Madison's God isn't my God. ..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23563" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I hope not!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23564" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">He was definitely not into the Tridentine Mass . .</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23565" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whether that invalidates the principles of the founding, that is another question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23566" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:45:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The question for me is whether or not practical politics fits Jeffrey's understanding at all.<br />Hence the rocket man bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23567" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What invalidates them is nature first and foremost. Man is not what they think man is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23568" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think practice can ever take its eyes off of truth. Agreed?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23569" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think most regimes are usually coming apart. If fact, most institutions.<br />To me you are blaming secondary structural aspects that are good and not bad, and neutral to what you oppose.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23570" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Prudence is not, as you suggest above, about winning. You equivocated on "win" when you equated politics with just war.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23571" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I tend to be a hugely uncompromising ass when it comes to theory, but in practice I tend to be more . . . able to see gray areas. Madisonian politics is the latter for me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23572" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I point to the secondary structural aspects as evidence of Madison's principles. As I said, division in government is much older than Madison. Madison's problem is that he thinks we, by nature, are fundamentally divided. By fallen nature, yes. By nature simply, no.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23573" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T14:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T14:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course - practical refers properly to means ordered to right ends. Your problem with the word "winning" and, indeed, your fundamental error is simply not thinking politically at all. And by that I do not mean disregarding morality or the common good.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23574" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T14:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So how do you define politics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23575" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T14:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T14:49:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm going to a bookstore. Have fun y'all</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23576" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-27T14:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-27T14:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are we still talking about Madison?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23577" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Jeffrey Bond And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest good, they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us all."<br />What is higher?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23578" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T15:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T15:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, I have read every entry of tNET and I do not see where you have every really explained what you regard as the fundamental difference between Aristotle and Madison. You seem to be describing Madison as a godless libertarian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23579" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sigh. The reIigous can't get over the faIIacy that the Founders were aII of one reIigious mindset and the non-reIigious can't get over the faIIacy that they were theoIogicaI thugs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23580" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T15:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm just saying, if you read Madison at face value, he is a Christian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23581" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(84, 87%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:11:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">When did Matthew J. Peterson change the disclaimer to include the possibility that some of us are mentally ill? Not that it's not obviously true, of course.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23582" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-27T15:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-27T15:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh good, TNET is almost itself again.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23583" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Ryland" data-date="2014-09-27T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Ryland at 2014-09-27T15:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wish I had a lot more time to catch up...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23584" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Catherine, excuses, excuses</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23585" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-27T15:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-27T15:13:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I think he had Joshua and Edward in mind. Anyone who posts that much latin....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23586" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson: I wrote: "Madison says in Federalist 10 that "Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit." But what does Madison mean by "justice"? Based on this passage and others like it, it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with liberty. For Madison, justice is not, as St. Thomas defined it, "a habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual will." Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are due, as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the interstices."<br />You wrote in response: "The passage you cite does NOT equate liberty with justice. In fact, one cannot make sense of it if that is the case. The passage you cite reveals that Madison does NOT equate liberty with justice - it proves MY point. What he means is that we treasure justice so much, that we will give up liberty and self-government in the pursuit of it. He is referring to demagogues and tyrants who arise in the midst of radically democratic mayhem and INJUSTICE, which is what he specifically complains of in the states, repeatedly."<br />I think the burden is on you, Matthew, to say what Madison meant by justice if he did not equate it with liberty. (Especially since that is the mainstream view on Madison, yes? Hence, my reading here is hardly "esoteric".) Are you saying that Madison agreed with St. Thomas' definition of justice? Madison is certainly not in agreement about justice requiring both the individual and state to give God His due. And what is due to each citizen is, for Madison, negative not positive. Each is due the liberty to pursue happiness as he sees fit, for happiness is fundamentally subjective for Madison. Were it otherwise, he could not speak as he does and allow its attainment, in principle, to be left to the shifting sands of temporary equilibrium created by the conflict between factions.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23587" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IronicaIIy, we have the reIigious who beIieve that reIigion shouId be imbedded within government, even though the Founders understood the bad resuIts of this thoroughIy, and yet, go baIIistic at the thought that Sharia Iaw couId become imbedded.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23588" class="entry even" data-likes="7" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:16:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, that is only ironic if you think all religious are equally untrue.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23589" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ashman, what's ironic about people supporting one kind of theocracy, and not another?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23590" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:16:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">jinx, Dr. Spaceman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23591" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott Weinberg, how could you have read everything written on this thread (and others) on the debate about Madison and Aristotle and not seen over and over again that, at least according to my argument, they differ on teleology?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23592" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ashman, you wrote: "Jeffrey Bond And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest good, they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us all."<br />What is higher?<br />Truth. As in, "the Truth will set you Free."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23593" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">samantha, because you're saying that the personaI reIigious nature of one person is vaIid and the other is not and you're wiIIng to force yours on them. Yet are infuriated if the reverse is true. It's more hyocriticaI than ironic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23594" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not hypocritical if she is convinced of the truth of that religion. Even so, she said nothing about forcing the religion on someone else.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23595" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the probiem with deepIy heId beIiefs. They're generaIIy arbiitrary or faIse, but the conviction to force it on to others is very high.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23596" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:24:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are assuming a different kind of interlocutor than the ones you've got here I think, John Ashman.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23597" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And John, are you not trying to "force" your nonreligious position on others?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23598" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It is not hypocritical if she is convinced of the truth of that religion."<br />Yes it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23599" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is yours not a "deeply held belief"? Why is your belief exempt from your critique?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23600" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope. I beIieve that states that promote atheism are as dangerous or more dangerous than those who promote reIigion. The proper roIe of government is to neither promote, not infringe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23601" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The danger here lies in thinking Plato is right simply or practically or absolutely re statecraft as soulcraft, and what "soulcraft might be given the birth of "priestcraft".<br />Now, the goal is still "living well" as opposed to simply living or the city of pigs.<br />But the problem is that the more we bear down on what the last highest best purpose of human beings is the more disagreement there is. The question becomes how we convince or force people to act as if or agree that our understanding of that end is right or true.<br />Further, there is the problem of organization. We are naturally social, but we are rational. Governments don't grow wholly organically. We construct them in no small part. And it is not clear how this ought to be done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23602" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same exact thoughts they had towards immigration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23603" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm actually on the anti-theocracy side of tNET, but I don't think the right argument against theocracy is that it's ironic, or hypocritical. As Dr. Spaceman said, that only applies if you assume there isn't a true religion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23604" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same problem arises for the order and structure of the University. We would have to have the mind of God and knowledge of all that is in order to know how best to create and structure the University.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23605" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So your deeply held belief, that states should not promote or infringe, you think should be forced on others who disagree with that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23606" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There is no true reIigion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23607" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you have mastered all the religions of the world and KNOW they are all false. How do you know that, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23608" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And if promoters of theocracy agreed with you, then they would be hypocrites.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23609" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(200, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But since they don't, they're just mistaken about the best way to promote the good through human government</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23610" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You think your position is neutral, John, but it is anything but neutral.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23611" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Same problem arises for our position in nature. We are in some way of the highest beings on earth and in charge over it. But it is beyond us in many ways, and our ignorance is overwhelming.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23612" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it's hypocrisy of government. You onIy beIieve it is right to force your "right" ideoIogy on others and refuse to accept the opposite.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23613" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not advocate force in this matter at all. There is a middle ground between "force" and "liberty" (in your sense of the word). It is called education.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23614" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If God wanted to ensure one true reIigion, aII he needs to do is stop by and do an announcement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23615" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You and Madison are the ones who want to force your "neutral" position on others and then point the finger at believers and call them people who want to force their views on others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23616" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Science is education, ReIigion is indoctrination whoIIy Iaccing observabIe substance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23617" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our Lord did make that announcement, John. I guess you missed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23618" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:31:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You hold a religious position without realizing it, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23619" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, peopIe have cIaimed he did, but onIy a Iuccy handfuI appeared to be invited. God wouId invite everyone if he were serious.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23620" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am all for science, and I have shown you five different ways, based on the science of logic, that you are contradicting yourself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23621" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So now you know not only that all religions are false, but also that God did not go about things the right way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23622" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the absense of proof, there is no vaIid argument for God in government.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23623" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are proofs, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23624" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scientific proofs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23625" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if you do not acknowledge contradiction, I don't think they will mean much to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23626" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you mean by scientific?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23627" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">RepeatabIe with proper methodoIogy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23628" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">even the Founders understood that god and government don't mix.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23629" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mere assertion. Is that science?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23630" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:34:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Liberalism lies about its neutrality, of course. But it doesn't truly emerge here until 100 years ago or so. If you asked anyone, elite or no, about John's position they would have laughed and shot it full of wholes.<br />This is obvious if anyone pays attention to what most of the founding generation thought liberty truly was or meant: never mind the American Protestants for a century before and after.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23631" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Repeatable experiments with proper methodology don't constitute proof, just evidence</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23632" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's your evidence for one right reIigion?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23633" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(76, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:36:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's your evidence that all religions are false?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23634" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't need any. You need to prove that one of them is not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23635" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you are going to force your "neutral" position on me and others believers, I think you need some proof.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23636" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, one can Iooq at the constant change of CathoIism and Chrisitanity and contradictions and have a good idea it's not them. Aii of the stories are based on pagan stories.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23637" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Oid and New testaments are a mess of contradiction.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23638" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thomas Gefferson expIained this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23639" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you do accept contradiction as a measure of what is not true? Please then explain the contradictions in your position that I have repeatedly demonstrated.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23640" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what contradiciton?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23641" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:41:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have we not been talking with each other these last twenty minutes or so?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23642" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He did John, 2000 years ago.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23643" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We're just hard of hearing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23644" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T15:41:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think we caught va "new atheist" guys! I have to go read my children inferior quality children's literature, but don't let him leave!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23645" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(182, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even if any one Founder beIieved in one true reIigion, most appeared to beIieve via their votes that there it has no pIace in government, onIy in the person.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23646" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And that forcing a singIe reIigion is wrong, even if the reIigions is right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23647" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Not even Gesus beIieved he was the son of God. He was a reformer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23648" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are the only one advocating force here, John. No one else has even hinted at it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23649" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is the "higher" cause</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23650" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even the least religious founders thought Jesus Christ the greatest of moral teachers, and thought religion and reason overlapped to such a degree that both taught almost the same about how we ought to live.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23651" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the one more important than Iiberty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23652" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus didn't beIieve in force nor government run reIigion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23653" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T15:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T15:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, John Boyer, I post Latin just to irritate you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23654" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Thomas Jefferson, perhaps the most modern of the founders, who was very into modern science, John Ashman, was mad at priests because they taught that faith was needed to believe in God - when he thought all you needed was reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23655" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus is a great spirituaI teacher. Jefferson didn't beIieve he was teh son of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23656" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">In fact, Jefferson took it for granted that his university of Virginia would have a publicly paid professor of ethics and morals who would teach the existence of God via reason.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23657" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(78, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:44:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is pleasure to be agreeing with you, Matthew. I guess that is what you mean by "politics"!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23658" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Question even the existence of God for......</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23659" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And he welcomed all the denominations to pay for their own professors of theology who would be part of campus life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23660" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Even Catholics?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23661" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But...my Iogic and reason tooq me eIsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23662" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, modern evangeIicaIs don't care for Jefferson because he didn't accept Jesus as his "Iord and savior"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23663" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">CathoIicism is Iiqe EngIish. It grew by absorbing everything around it. the whoIe Jesus thing is based on pagan stories.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23664" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">immacuIate conception, resurrection, etc. AIi not new ideas.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23665" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have a right, John Ashman, not to be forced to accept revelation or faith. But you have a sacred or central duty to hone your conscience and seek the truth with all your heart, mind, and soul</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23666" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23667" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My u nderstanding of bond's position is that we need a theocracy based on higher one true reIigion principIes and that this is more important than freedom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23668" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T15:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife is as serious a CathoIic as anyone here (never misses sunday) but we accept each other's different beIiefs. She's going to try to "save" me though. She's waiting for some openig.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23669" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T15:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I blocked Ashman yesterday. In him the religious character of the principles of the founding are most evident. It is a blind faith, zealous and indefatigable. And contradiction be damned.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23670" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, John. I have never once advocated a theocracy. The paradigm in your brain compels you to push me into that position to fit your preconceived categories. This habit of mind reflects precisely my concern about the founding principles and how they shape souls.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23671" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I add my prayers to those of your wife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23672" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not agree with your assumption, John, that freedom and authority are opposed in principle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23673" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the higher good, beyond Iiberty?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23674" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 28%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John: Following the pattern of the shadows of the American cave, you are next going to be saying that I think everyone who disagrees with me is going to Hell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23675" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I like the common one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23676" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Authority is onIy good and vaIid when it protects naturaI rights. Otherwise, it is anti-freedom buIIying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23677" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T16:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I want the Scott-troll back.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23678" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Natural?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23679" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">On what authority do you accept natural rights, John?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23680" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sentient rights, if you prefer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23681" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please explain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23682" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">von Liddihn's (?) book demonstrates that democracy is opposed to liberty (since its true aim is equality).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23683" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's not authority, it needs onIy the abiIity to reason and the abiIity to empathize. Once you reaIize that your bubbIe of seIf is essentiaIIy identicaI in nature to aII others, and you can get to the idea that you shouId treat others as you wish to be treated, then you're there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23684" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">You then are the one true authority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23685" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you do with all the other bubbles who don't see it your way?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23686" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, it is the acceptance that everyone is their own authority and I am not theirs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23687" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T16:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Utilitarianism is so nineteenth century.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23688" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then you have the right to defend yourseIf against aggression from eviI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23689" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You envision a land of Cyclopses, each making laws for himself and his own.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23690" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aggression, in your world, is in the eye of the beholder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23691" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">your reIigion is so 2000 years out of date.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23692" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aggression is fairIy weII accepted in meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23693" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I will check out the church of what's happenin' now to get updated!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23694" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Accepted in meaning" is the true authority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23695" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course, the reIigious rareIy beIieve they are aggressing, they are saving peopIe by chopping their heads off.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23696" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One's own conscience is the supreme arbiter . . . . unless it hold that their is a Truth that binds all consciences. Then we have troubles.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23697" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(105, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Again, there is no true authority. there are 7biIIion of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23698" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I recall you said elsewhere that we can only know "accepted" meaning, not objective meaning. So why should anyone take seriously any claim you make? What motivates you to speak? The desire for power?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23699" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one has to accept any cIaim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23700" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">there is no obgective meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23701" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I asked what motivated you to speak. That puzzles me if we cannot, in principle, come to know something as it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23702" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(114, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When you say "There is no objective meaning," is what you mean objective?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23703" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">YOu refuse to answer what is "higher" than Iiberty.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23704" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did answer long ago. Truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23705" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Meaning is subgective.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23706" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Check out the court records, John. I did answer you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23707" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If meaning were subjective, I would not know what you meant by that claim.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23708" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">truth such as...taII taIes about a dead person?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23709" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we agree on the meaning of subgective and obGective as we use them. but we created those meanings. they weren't there before. It is a product of our mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23710" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your mind, you mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23711" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">On your own theory, you cannot know my mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23712" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do you disagree with the dictionary?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23713" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's why I can't teII you how to Iive.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23714" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The dictionary is now the supreme authority?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23715" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and you have no direct Iine to god that you have argued, Iet aIone proven.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23716" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what truth do you need to impose upon me?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23717" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are just talking about natural reason here, John. If you cannot see that meaning is not subjective, then I don't think talking about Jesus is going to help us communicate better.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23718" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The truth imposes itself on all, John. It needs no help from me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23719" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"What we have here is a failure to communicate."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23720" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so there's no need for reIigion in government or forced reIigion of any type.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23721" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(110, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T16:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player<br />That struts and frets his hour upon the stage<br />And then is heard no more: it is a tale<br />Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,<br />Signifying nothing."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23722" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what is the use of truth to a government? what type of truth has it the authority to force?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23723" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">True religion cannot be forced. You are the only one talking of force.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23724" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pilate: "What is truth?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23725" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am still wondering how you exempt yourself from your own position, John. Are you not making truth claims here? And if you are not, what is motivating you to speak?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23726" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Power? Prestige? Idle curiosity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23727" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:24:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have claimed to KNOW that all religions are false. Is that not a massive claim to truth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23728" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-27T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-27T16:30:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing is true and John is its prophet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23729" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:25:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You have claimed to KNOW that all meaning is subjective. Is that not a massive claim to truth?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23730" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">when did I cIaim that truth doesn't exist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23731" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">supernaturaI truth, however, is an oxymoron.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23732" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I misunderstood you, I apologize. So you do think we can know things objectively?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23733" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What if only his meaning is subjective. How can he be sure it is not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23734" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i thinq we can get to the point where we accept them as obgective, via scientific proof, math and demonstration. But wiId, after the fact cIaims don't reaIIy cut it for that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23735" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i wonder if Mary new she was a virgin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23736" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Are they objective because we accept them as so? Or do we accept them because they are objective?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23737" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">these things shouId maqe aII christians doubt their authority to impose their beIiefs on others.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23738" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am trying to grasp what you mean by truth, John, but you're not helping because "force" and "imposing" seem to be all you can think about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23739" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Humans are faIIibIe enought that "obective truths" aiways Ieave the door open to questioning. but the more proof, evidence, math, the better. I mean, seriousIy, not even Jews thinq Jesus was the son of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23740" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm trying to find out what truth has to do with government. why is this more important than protection of freedom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23741" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is your position as just stated--that "objective truths" are always tentative--also tentative?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23742" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or do you know that your claim is unalterably true?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23743" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what does truth have to do with government and why is it more important htan freedom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23744" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what does truth have to do with government and why is it more important htan freedom?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23745" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, you are shifting ground. Please answer the question.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23746" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not untiI you answer mine first. Mine has precedence from way bacc. YOu'er the one moving the goaI posts to avoid baccing up your statement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23747" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:37:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, if we cannot agree that the mind can know things as they are, then there is no point in discussing anything. That question takes precedence over anything, does it not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23748" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not reaIIy, but nice dodge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23749" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i accept your surrender.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23750" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are a most gracious man, John. But what does surrender mean?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23751" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-27T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-27T16:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">*tags in*<br />The first important distinction is the meaning of freedom. If that which is free is "that which is unconditioned," then freedom would not be contingent upon the truth of what is, but nevertheless is meaningless in a world of dynamic and dependent interactions. If freedom is, however, "the lack of determination to one particular," then freedom requires an understanding of that-to-which one can be determined and is consequently contingent upon that grasp, i.e., knowing things as they are.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23752" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I said above that once truth is dismissed, then power, prestige or some other goal becomes the goal of discussion. Since you are looking for surrender rather than truth, it seems you agree with my position.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23753" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:42:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a real drag when grown men prefer not being wrong to reasonable discourse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23754" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-27T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-27T16:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I guess I was not mistaken when I said that you thought that truth does not exist, John.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23755" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T16:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T16:43:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pot meet kettle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23756" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T16:44:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you don't believe in truth, freedom literally has no meaning</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23757" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Can anyone tell me why the Arab world is upset with the US? We've done so much for them. We've given them the gifts of western democracy, we've toppled regimes and all the want to do is kill us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23758" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffrey Bond, it is not immediately obvious how Aristotle and Madison differ in the area of theology. Aristotle was a philosopher, and Madison was a political philosopher and statesman. They both believed that truth and freedom come from God. There is not this radical difference you suppose. You also claimed Aristotle and Hobbes were opposites. This is not exactly clear either. Perhaps you not exactly engaged on solid ground, in this "conversation"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23759" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T16:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T16:48:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">"It's a real drag when grown men prefer not being wrong to reasonable discourse." HAHAHAHAHA</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23760" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ha-ha... ha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23761" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T16:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T16:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kettle and pot indeed, Jeff.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23762" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Kettle, pot, charcoal and burnt remains all at once.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23763" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me Madison and Aristotle are most different in that one was Greek, and the other an American, one lived before Christ, the other lived after Christ. One was a Christian, the other not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23764" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle wrote a book titled Politics. Madison did not. There, that is another difference. Can we agree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23765" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But of all these difference, Jeffrey Bond claims they differ most in the area they most agreed upon, that God was the Creator.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23766" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T16:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T16:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">ENFP (close, Samantha!)<br />sanguine choleric<br />4w5, 7w8, 9w8 (Nina)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23767" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T16:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle = Hobbes = Madison. Its so clear. Deism = Catholicism. / debate. << I can be reasonable too.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23768" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T16:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T16:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle does not equal Hobbes, and Hobbes does not equal Madison, but they are not opposites, and the biggest similarity is between Aristotle and Madison in their understanding of God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23769" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, we were discussing whether or not the God of Washington and Madison is the same God as a Catholic in good standing. It seems they are and I am not sure why anyone would say they are not. Would you care to elaborate?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23770" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">... I didn't think so...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23771" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">24,000</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23772" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T17:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am a bit stuck on the natural religion argument on the other thread. The assumptions of the counterargument are denied and we may be at an impass. BUT I answered Scott already.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23773" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John ßwenkler, welcome to tNET 24,000 where we all have agreed that the God of Aristotle is the same God as Madison, and the same God as Catholics who know love and serve that same God to higher perfection.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23774" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I had time to research more into the Federalist papers and to think about political philosophy I am sure I would have something better to contribute than this post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23775" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Boyer" data-date="2014-09-27T17:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Boyer at 2014-09-27T17:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ditto what Daniel said.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23776" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As it is, who is this John Ashman fellow, and why does he Truth, Beauty, and Goodness?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23777" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Since we are all agreed that these good political philosophers were speaking of the same God but in different ways, and to various perfections, and since we all agree that the Church hopes for the salvation of those who have not had the occasion to be baptized, we can agree that most Americans who believe in God have a great deal in common.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23778" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:10:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nobody agrees with Scott, that we can agree upon.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23779" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And having this in common does not constitute a faction of the majority but, as Madison said, a Union, the mortal powers of which must be divided to ensure a balance of power, so that these God-given freedoms under the dominion of God alone, who is the ultimate power, is not put asunder.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23780" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think Madison would agree with the above... they are pretty much his own words.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23781" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, while I am not sure that I agree, what Scott just said here seems reasonable.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23782" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Thank you Daniel. You are a blessed soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23783" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To be fair, I was just paraphrasing Madison, but you have a blessed brain. I can tell.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23784" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't mean to flatter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23785" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T17:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T17:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ do you mean like going to hell? RE: "a great deal in common" cf. Unam Sanctam</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23786" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:14:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, John! No!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23787" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(183, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But these truths are not so far off from what is before us today. We do have a higher good before us today, and a more proximate good, and Catholics are very blessed with a greater degree of responsibility. There is no reason why you should not run for office. It is a lot easier than you think, and the benefits are very great. Yes, we make mistakes, but our government was made for the Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23788" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do enjoy john Ashman's arguments to power and self control. I do not know him, but it seems he is fighting an unspoken past and not willing to admit to an objective reality while simultaneously stating that the scientific method (deduction not induction) is the basis of knowing. Willing to admit perceived effects but not admit causes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23789" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe not made for the Catholic, but it is a surprise good for the Catholic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23790" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Without Catholic participation, it begins to falter.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23791" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^The last statement is certainly true.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23792" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am far too inclined to, "circle up the wagons," myself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23793" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">But political participation and political philosophy cannot be reduced to the strictest definition of science. It aims at all those things which are reasonable, yet fall outside of the realm of scientific knowledge in the strict sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23794" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the Catholic must plunge into political life in America. There is nothing to fear.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23795" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(56, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:19:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Except terrible headaches and endless stress.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23796" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Isak-- ah, I should have known about the 'F.' A poet should be an 'F'</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23797" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Too bad you have a polarized personality where you pit people that are closest to you in belief opposite from you in support.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23798" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:20:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_23799" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:20:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think John Ashman has left, but now that we're back from the park, I just have to address the "Jesus didn't know he was the Son of God" nonsense claim</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23800" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T17:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott: what is your Myers-Briggs status?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23801" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus claimed to be the Son of God all through the gospels, but it's true scholars in the last decade following the historico-critical method have denied that the Son of God claims in the gospels originated with Jesus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23802" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T17:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FYI I think John Medaille is convincing in showing that the influential founders were not natural religionists but Deists. This circumvents the natural religion argument vis a vis founding docs. On the other thread.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23803" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that's because their entire approach to the text involves assuming that any historical figure in it could only have believed what was commonly believed at the time. and of course miracles such as the Incarnation are ruled out at the outset</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23804" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott is an ESFP</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23805" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23806" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">When I said "literally every person on tNET is an N" I was excluding trolls</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23807" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Opposite eh?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23808" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^totally a guess, of course</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23809" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Where is this other argument with Medaille, John Ruplinger?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23810" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lacks intuition, thought and judgement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23811" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nothing wrong with being an ESFP, of course. Technically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23812" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course not but that is why communication is so different, stylistically.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23813" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it would make sense, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23814" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Poetry, seeking political office, sensitive and holds strongly to beliefs (strong BVM devotion). Yeah.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23815" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">David Upham's status: UD intra-politics department warfare. Pretty cordial really but animated. I knew David in grad school.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23816" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many strong traits that I lack. (Not wholly lack... That sounds odd. <br />I'm just more on the rational side of know the truth is better than feeling the truthishness)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23817" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, I do not really believe in the Briggs Myers stuff. I think it is ok to have pen names. It is ok if your pen name has a pen name. I think the only thing that matters is the words that are said: are they true or not... are the words on solid ground. it does not matter who says the words. Today, 99% of the conversation is not scientific. It's all political and poetical. So, yes I failed out of TAC, then studied three years of lit at Christendom and 2 years of rhetoric at CUA then was hired as a speechwriter in the Bush Admin. I think I learned the most at TAC... but I think there is too much emotion placed on the scientific. I find that frustrating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23818" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T17:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh man, I'd have liked to see that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23819" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T17:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, of course if you assume Jesus was a human, non-miraculous Jew, as many modern scholars do, you're going to think he never claimed to be the Son of God. But those assumptions on the part of scholars make that kind of scholarship irrelevant to Christians</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23820" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(187, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IF you have learned the scientific and the natural theology, you do need to look at Dogma for your own happiness sake.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23821" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">After that, I am not sure if anyone understands what an incredible gift this country is. It's an oyster and the world is your oyster.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23822" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T17:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T17:31:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, it's not the assumptions which make it irrelevant, its the lack of any proof</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23823" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Incorruptibles are good proof. At least the scientists say so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23824" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T17:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's a very different question than the textual question of Scripture; and to my mind (I've looked into it) the "incorruptibles" arent proof of anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23825" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T17:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but be that as it may</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23826" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Our goal is not to prove the divinity or the miraculousness of Jesus. Our goal is to learn devotion to God and neighbor, even if the neighbor is a Samaritan.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23827" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF, are you still a Molinist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23828" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^(Just thought I'd stir the pot)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23829" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No one should be trying to convince you of what you do not believe. That is like trying to start a fire in the rain.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23830" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's a molinist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23831" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">even if the neighbor is a molinist. btw, what is a molinist?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23832" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">someone who has doubts about the omniscience and omnipotence of God</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23833" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wikipedia says this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism<br />Molinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Molinism, named after 16th Century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, is a religious doctrine which attempts to...<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23834" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, so you will never change an opinion about your current beliefs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23835" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Right, because it makes a lot more sense to try to convince someone of what he already believes...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23836" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T17:37:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Me? I deny ever being a Molinist, despite your best efforts to label me as such, sophomore year.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23837" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:37:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I say that a Molinist is a "semi-pelagian"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23838" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I did try, Joel HF.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23839" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-27T17:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-27T17:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">preach it, brother!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23840" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Brian Kemple" data-date="2014-09-27T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Brian Kemple at 2014-09-27T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a shame the pope (I forget which one) made Banez stop discussing divine foreknowledge at the same time that he made Molina stop discussing divine foreknowledge...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23841" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, I change my opinion about my beliefs all the time. I think you need to in order to grow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23842" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeff Kantor" data-date="2014-09-27T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Kantor at 2014-09-27T17:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">A molinist is a bit like a wart, but it believes in free will.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23843" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Brian, I think that helped prevent war.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23844" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But Scott, you just said the opposite"No one should be trying to convince you of what you do not believe. That is like trying to start a fire in the rain."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23845" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find it hard to imagine how anyone could wonder about such things as Providence and free will. Is it not more immediately satisfying to perceive the needs of the poor, or the simple wants of another, or simply how to interact with another to be happy? Isn't that enough?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23846" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I used to think it would be cool if a pope just condemned Molinism, today. But then I got to thinking, if the Church did that, the whole world would just think, "WTF?!?!" and that would be all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23847" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, but belief comes from God, like a gift falling from the sky. My opinion of that gift is always changing. Am I making sense?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23848" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, St. Paul thought it important enough to talk about.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23849" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah yes, St. Paul's letter to the Molinists...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23850" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T17:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(170, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T17:41:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger: my take on the beliefs of Jefferson is based on reading a ton of Jefferson. I think I've read every word he ever wrote about religion or God, but who knows.<br />He thought you could prove the existence of God with reason. That Christ was the greatest moral teacher, but obviously not divine. He eschewed the revelation of Christianity. He didn't believe in a watchmaker God, either, quite, as he did speak of God intervening or some sort of overarching justice that was a touch providential from time to time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23851" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, my belief comes from God, not from someone trying to talk my belief into existence... my opinion of my belief is changing and developing quite constantly. Does this make sense? I want to make sure I answer your question. My aim is to please.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23852" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Anyway, Joel HF, as it is now more than 10 years since I accused you of being a Molinist and holding heretical views on predestination I would just like to say that I am sorry for saying that you held heretical views on predestination. <br />But if I were pope...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23853" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:43:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought you were pope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23854" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_23855" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-27T17:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-27T17:44:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Wow, Scott. Do you work out?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23856" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:47:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: “Look, it’s not like I don’t have actual reasons for not believing in God. It’s not like I haven’t ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn’t see a thing, and it was 50 below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out, ‘Oh, God, if there is a God, I’m lost in this blizzard, and I’m gonna die if you don’t help me.'” And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. “Well then you must believe now,” he says, “After all, here you are, alive.” The atheist just rolls his eyes. “No, man, all that happened was a couple Eskimos came wandering by and showed me the way back to camp.”</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23857" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is Jefferson's personal spin on what the University of Virginia should do. It reveals him pretty well:<br />"In conformity with the principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an equal footing, with the jealousies of the different sects in guarding that equality from encroachment and surprise, and with the sentiments of the Legislature in favor of freedom of religion, manifested on former occasions, we have proposed no professor of divinity; and the rather as the proofs of the being of a God, the creator, preserver, and supreme ruler of the universe, the author of all the relations of morality, and of the laws and obligations these infer, will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral obligations, of those in which all sects agree, with a knowledge of the languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, a basis will be formed common to all sects. Proceeding thus far without offence to the Constitution, we have thought it proper at this point to leave every sect to provide, as they think fittest, the means of further instruction in their own peculiar tenets."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23858" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T17:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T17:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">AGAIN, consider this:<br />"We have proposed no professor of divinity; and the rather as the proofs of the being of a God, the creator, preserver, and supreme ruler of the universe, the author of all the relations of morality, and of the laws and obligations these infer, will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral obligations, of those in which all sects agree, with a knowledge of the languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, a basis will be formed common to all sects. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23859" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:48:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pope Scott says "my belief comes from God, not from someone trying to talk my belief into existence." Related to the atheist and Eskimo story above - why can't God give you belief through the persuasive words of others?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23860" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T17:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T17:49:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">When this understanding broke down as to what reason could do in regard to morality (of the general harmony re ethics between religion and reason and proofs for the existence of God, etc.) that's when things began to fall apart. This was the key to making it all work.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23861" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T17:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Absolute morality in a relativism of theology (or there about). This seems to simultaneous and directly argue against Scott's "we are all at the same God" and Ashman's "there are no objective truths". <br />It seems there is something real and perceived, but the specifics are not necessary for the state to exist.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23862" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T17:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T17:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Exactly, Matthew, that's why Jefferson's god is not my God. Pretty clear</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23863" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The debate on the other thread is a small one only: whether the founders were natural religionists or Deists \ rationalists. Its not a primary consideration IMO, but a nice hammer to beat people over the head with one way or the other</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23864" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do not think that is me pictured above. It is hard to tell without the mask.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23865" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T17:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T17:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">If Jefferson's God isn't any of you people's God, then neither is Aristotle's.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23866" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">true that</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23867" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or rather, DUH</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23868" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T17:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, it seems to me that much of the great conversation in Western thought, from the Hellenistic-Hebrew conversation, till today, has been a constant revision of opinion to align more closely with God's gift of belief.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23869" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T17:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the key to the founding era was that most folks were Christians, and even the elites who were most "modern" thought something akin to Jefferson above.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23870" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One of Pope Scott's many problems is blind certainty, a close-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn’t even know he’s locked up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23871" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just like the atheist in the bar.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23872" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T17:58:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Puritans don't share my God either....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23873" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T17:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T17:58:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Stop being so selfish with your God Beitia - let the rest of us in on the action</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23874" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T17:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">are you Catholic? Do you believe in the trinity? getting there</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23875" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:01:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't believe in the gods of the BASQUE!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23876" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">me neither. Jeffie</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23877" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">it is absurd, however, to say that "nature and nature's god" in the declaration is the same as the One True Triune God of true religion</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23878" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23879" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23880" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">When Madison et al came up with the concept of man being endowed by God with unalienable rights, this was just a revised opinion of Aristotle's belief in God...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23881" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">lowercase your g</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23882" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's not what many at the time thought. I'd say its similar to the "Aristotle's God" debate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23883" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">lowercase your g</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23884" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">GGG</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23885" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">not ggg</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23886" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-27T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-27T18:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Up with G, down with g.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23887" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(100, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:06:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">stiff necked and unruly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23888" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">he cannot be taught</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23889" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T18:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T18:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thurificati</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23890" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-27T18:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-27T18:12:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha: excuses for what?! Is ENTJ the only type that doesn't need excusing?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23891" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T18:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T18:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aristotle's god bears little resemblance to Jefferson's watchmaker.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23892" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tbf, I did flirt with Molinism in my youth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23893" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, is this a belief you hold by "god's gift of belief" or one by reason?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23894" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T18:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T18:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jefferson didn't believe in a watchmaker God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23895" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T18:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Once again, read closely, Joel HF (the "watchmaker" bit was false concerning many "deists" of the time). "Preserver." As well as all the occasions where Jefferson talks (even privately) about providential justice, etc.<br />"We have proposed no professor of divinity; and the rather as the proofs of the being of a God, the creator, preserver, and supreme ruler of the universe, the author of all the relations of morality, and of the laws and obligations these infer, will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral obligations, of those in which all sects agree, with a knowledge of the languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, a basis will be formed common to all sects."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23896" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I really don't care about the details of Jefferson's, Madison's, or even Aristotle's gods. They're all false, and that's okay. Jefferson and Madison can still form a pretty good political union, and Aristotle can talk about things. They're all just wrong about the most important thing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23897" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't insist that my pastry-maker have intimate and accurate knowledge of the divine, do I?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23898" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-27T18:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-27T18:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If anything, Joel HF, Jefferson's understanding was far closer to Christianity than Aristotle's. That's almost beyond question. He thought Christ the great moral teacher, likely thought that the universe had a beginning, and knew of Christian virtues and thought them overlapping with what reason would tell you to a large extent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23899" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">"great moral teacher" doesn't get us any closer than Islam</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23900" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jefferson was a closet Mohammedan!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23901" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">"There is not much room for error in the world of the ENTJ. They dislike to see mistakes repeated, and have no patience with inefficiency. They may become quite harsh when their patience is tried in these respects, because they are not naturally tuned in to people's feelings, and more than likely don't believe that they should tailor their judgments in consideration for people's feelings. ENTJs, like many types, have difficulty seeing things from outside their own perspective. Unlike other types, ENTJs naturally have little patience with people who do not see things the same way as the ENTJ. The ENTJ needs to consciously work on recognizing the value of other people's opinions, as well as the value of being sensitive towards people's feelings. In the absence of this awareness, the ENTJ will be a forceful, intimidating and overbearing individual. This may be a real problem for the ENTJ, who may be deprived of important information and collaboration from others. In their personal world, it can make some ENTJs overbearing as spouses or parents." <br />The ENTJ doesn't need excusing, it takes control and excuses. (Feelings just get in the way)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23902" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Jesus claimed to be the Son of God all through the gospels, but it's true scholars in the last decade following the historico-critical method have denied that the Son of God claims in the gospels originated with Jesus."<br />i beIieve that Jesus probabIy used terms such as "I am A son of God" or "we are aII sons of God" and I beIieve this is sensibIe.. And that his words were either twisted to turn him into a more powerfuI entity than he was, or simpIy made up compIeteIy.. Do we have any document signed by Jesus where he states he is the son of God? Or that his mother toId him that she was a virgin? And, that Joseph guy, weII....he was some creepy oId guy that hung out with him. AIso, we have the issue of the erased brother. And how he had no history untiI the age of 30, shortIy before he died. Youid thinq the son of God wouId get a Iot of paparazzi. <br />i read a catachism book front to back and if there was anything to put me off beIievabiIity of Jesus as THE son of God, it was that, because I couIdn't stop saying "seriousiy?!?" and "WTF?!?" the whoIe way through. Same thing I get with ScientoIogy and Mormonism. <br />Had he not been murdered by the Jews, we might not even now who he was today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23903" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">bwahahaha - Christianity as a historical accident of missing the indefinite article. Good one John Ashman</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23904" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, what was your childhood like, how did you develop your beliefs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23905" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T18:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T18:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jefferson's religion --> American[ist] scalping jihadism </p>
</li>
<li id="post_23906" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought Hebrew was missing all vowels, so that makes sense.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23907" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aramaic has articles</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23908" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-27T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ash man, WTFudge??</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23909" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(actually I don't know I'm just stirring the pot)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23910" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i have a marxist father, but was Ieft to deveIop my own beIiefs, much to his chagrin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23911" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(99, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:28:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">a lot of paparazzi? How about 5000 people at a sermon. How about centurions seeking him out? Pilate interviewing him? <br />I think, John Ashman, that you read as well as you believe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23912" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aiso, in his time, being gay was punishabIe by death, so as a man at 30, singIe, with no famiIy, who hung out with other singIe men who bathed together in the river....weIi.....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23913" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm interested, how did you develop them? Did you have any mAjor life challenges during formative years that lead to everything being absolutely relative with no objective reality. (And how does science fit that reality)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23914" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">MichaeI, isn't that aII from his oId age?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23915" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ashman, you're a fool</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23916" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought you were fooI hardy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23917" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(0, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">believe what you want, but your opinions are based on a terrible reading of scripture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23918" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">as I said before, no one was gay before 1800, it didn't exist</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23919" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so "being gay" wasn't punishable by anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23920" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:30:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">True. It was just acts not a lifestyle.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23921" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Having sex with another man sure was. That is even in the Oid Testament.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23922" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It wasn't a IifestyIe, it wouId have been a deathstyIe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23923" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">no one was "gay" didn't exist. Read more carefully</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23924" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In any case, I beIieve in obgective reaIity within the wiggIe room of science and human error.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23925" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's stupid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23926" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sodomite?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23927" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but you're kind of solipsistic, so that's to be expected</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23928" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It was more accepted in Greece and even moreso in other cuItures. Egypt for another.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23929" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">have you ever considered "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics"?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23930" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">in Greece it wasn't "accepted" in the sense of now. the acts were tolerated, mostly in the sense of pederasty, but it was not done exclusively, but also in conjunction with having a woman as well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23931" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If I were soIipsistic, I wouIdn't bother engaging you. NaturaI rights sort of ends that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23932" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-27T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gay? But Jesus was married to Mary magdalen and had a secret "love child" I believe I am a direct descendent, thank you very much. #sarcasm.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23933" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">your views on "belief" are clearly solipsistic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23934" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's why my slide ruler can calculate log and equant.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23935" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ashman, you don't engage, you assert</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23936" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So you're seriousIy saying that no one was homosexuai before 1800, that it simpIy...popped into existence???</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23937" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty much. studies on it have been done</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23938" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's....amazing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23939" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(26, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iy stupid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23940" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but whatever.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23941" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">dumbass, the word "homosexual" is from the 1880s</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23942" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It wouId be siIIy to even bother the argument.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23943" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The one side debate is looking like the days of pb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23944" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sigh.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23945" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">first use in English: 1892</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23946" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I reaIIy thinq this may be the stupidest thing I've ever seen in print on the internet.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23947" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T19:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">[Peterson is trolling Medaille now. The truth of the matter is subtle I think.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23948" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">you reading your own comments? I agree</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23949" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so, you were born and after having sex with both men and women, you decided that you prefer women.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23950" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">this is why we need to prevent reIigion from seeping into government. stupid shit gets put into Iaw and peopIe get murdered or imprisoned over it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23951" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:45:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Spaceman Bond, of infinite patience, tried to reason with you. I have no such patience</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23952" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ah back to force again</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23953" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Government has nothing without force.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23954" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My reading of the symposium was different....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23955" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you we're talking about government, you were spouting Dan Brown inspired crap about Christianity. But all you've got is force....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23956" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Totalitarian governments...maybe</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23957" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">why do our poIice have guns?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23958" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To maqe suggestions?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23959" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">As backup</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23960" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">by Ashman's arguments, all monasteries were gay - because it is all dudes, football teams must be gay, because they are all dudes - and they shower together. The Senate and House were probably all gay because they were all dudes hanging out too<br />#ashmangaygnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23961" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the only reason to be around anyone, per Ashman, is to fuck</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23962" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and when they use the bacqup, what is it caIIed? "the poice _____"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23963" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the police gay</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23964" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Police squad --- good movie.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23965" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Moustache. That is the correct answer.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23966" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Firefighters?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23967" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">gay</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23968" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T18:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">tNET with Ashman? - gay. I'm out</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23969" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T18:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Gentlemen's clubs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23970" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">In the time of Gesus, straight peopIe got married by 15 or so. He was 33, unmarried and had no girIfriend. And was a craftsman which made him a catch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23971" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://www.theguardian.com/.../apr/20/was-jesus-gay-probably<br />Was Jesus gay? Probably | Paul Oestreicher<br />Paul Oestreicher: I preached on Good Friday that Jesus's intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt deeply...<br />THEGUARDIAN.COM|BY PAUL OESTREICHER</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23972" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-27T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is your fascination with gay men?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23973" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, see, it wouIdn't bother me at aII if he were, because it's not some sort of eviI pIot to destroy the worid.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23974" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's my obsession with the Iacq of Iogic in Christianity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23975" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and why it needs to be far from government.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23976" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-27T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-27T18:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good thing there are atleast a few women on tNET!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23977" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">because of this "non-existent" force government uses every day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23978" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T18:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-27T18:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lack of logic? Hmm, did you even read the article you posted?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23979" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T18:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T18:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's more IogicaI than the CathoIic story of immacuIate conception, creepy Geoseph, resurrection and aII the other potpourri of paganism tossed into it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23980" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The term "Christianity" sadly has been watered down to mean all sorts of belief structures which includes every crAzy Combination of fact and fiction.<br />Like larry Niven's "third church of Jesus Christ, cosmonaut"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23981" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's the whoIe "but...the 2nd Amendment didn't mean Christianity" thing. It especiaIIy meant Christianity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23982" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-27T19:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We all know Jesus was an alien, beamed down from the heavens, and spent the last 3 years teaching the disciples how to make crop circles. There is my op piece for the day.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23983" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(113, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">IncIuding the originaI crazy combination of fact and fiction from the Popes. And I can thinq of no better proof of there being no God than the survivaI of many of Popes during the middie ages when God wouId have caIIed these bastards home for a discussion before sending them on to heII.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23984" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iiz, that actuaIIy sounds reIativeIy normaI by comparison. It at Ieast acqnowiedges technoIogy and science.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23985" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:06:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">BUt it's cooI because "it's those Mormons and scientoIogists and MusIims that are nuts, not US! Because we have TRUTH on our side".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23986" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, do you believe in philosophy?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23987" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I beIieve in phiIosophy as a way of getting your thinqing started. I don't beIieve in it as a iifestyIe or career path. there is too much action required. One doesn't remain in boot camp forever, you train, and you go to battIe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23988" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm not a school teacher, but believe that structured learning is better than unstructured</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23989" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Would you agree?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23990" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps. OnIy when properIy done, as a guide, not as a Iecture.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23991" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So how can you guide me to what you know? How did you come to your beliefs?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23992" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Reading hitting up against hard, coId reaIity. It pushed me bacq into Iocqe and naturaI rights. but reIigion aIways seemed of no vaIue to me. except that I Iiqe certain aspects of cathoIicism, the focus on responsibiIity, atonement, apoIogy. Important factors for a heaithy Iife.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23993" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd rather caII my seif a christian for the most part. I do beIieve in Gesus as a reaI and important phiIosopher. And a Geffersonian.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23994" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm a cold hard reality person. What next?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23995" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T19:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 86%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T19:18:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am glad I missed some debates here (like the apparent argument with the Troll over the dogma that "the sacrament of baptism is necessary, absolutely, as a necessity of means for salvation"... no offense to Mr. Langley, but your answers were not very good considering that quote is dogma....reconciling baptism of desire/blood with it is possible, of course-though the denial of those are not heresy, since they are only sententia fidei proxima).<br />And I guess I should be thankful that I cannot see this Ashman fellow...have no idea who that is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23996" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't now. You seem to be in deniai about force.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23997" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was a cop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23998" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, you never forced anyone to do anything, under impIied or express threat?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_23999" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is not the best way to act, since you'll just make the job harder</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24000" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-27T19:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Have you? I bet you have!!!! Think long and hard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24001" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T19:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T19:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, actual Molinism is not semi-pelagian, it is determinist in fact The Molinism of 99% of those who call themselves Molinists is semi-pelagian<br />The problem is people feel they need to take a camp when first introduced to the idea of predestination. It is a mixture of curiosity and pride (as if a complex theological debate would be decided upon based on the skewed and inaccurate articles of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia). For his failings, Fr. Most at least understood Molinism fairly well, and unfortunately did not understand Thomism, though he claims to have once been one. I will post a bit after I restart my browser...FB does have some crappy scripts and glitches posting on the wall with TNET....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24002" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i don't deny the existence of force.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24003" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is force?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24004" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A thought? An idea?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24005" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Was it "real"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24006" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Unless you actively need to wrestle or "apply force" is there anything there?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24007" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence.<br />"they ruled by law and not by force"<br />synonyms: coercion, compulsion, constraint, duress, oppression, harassment, intimidation, threats;</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24008" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that isn't real</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24009" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If you have a gun, yes there is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24010" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Of course it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24011" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Cops shoot peopIe every day in america.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24012" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No a lever and a fulcrum are not real unless actively used as a lever and fulcrum... The rest of the time they are potential</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24013" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24014" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:27:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Your idea of force is not a real thing just your solipsistical idea of reality.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24015" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Because the force exists as coercion. The person understands what wiII happen if they disobey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24016" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">While I dig up some of my old writings on Molinism, I will leave you with this: Why is Scotus, who held so many things we now consider heretical, a doctor of the Church, when he isn't even a saint? Heck why do people feel justified claiming the IC against Aquinas, as a dismissive of him, when Scotus's positions on the sacraments, justification, orders, etc are all either heretical or theologically erroneous?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24017" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if someone disobeys, increasing IeveIs of force are used, are they not?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24018" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No they have ideas but they aren't real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24019" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Handcuffs are force. TacqIing someone is force. Tasers are force.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24020" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so cops never beat or shoot anyone?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24021" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T19:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T19:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew J. Peterson--first, note that of course Jefferson is more of a christian than Aristotle, I never argued that he wasn't, just that their ideas of "god" were very dissimilar. Second, even a watchmaker may "preserve," that doesn't get one to the natural knowledge of God himself. Third, as to the idea that Jefferson's idea of God was closer than Aristotle's to the Christian God (since you raise that question) note that Jefferson thought Christ was a "great moral teacher" thus clearly, though implicitly, denying that Christ was God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24022" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Notice, Geff, that "threat of vioIence" is defined as force. And that was your Iever. Period. If it weren't, peopIe wouId wouId ignore you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24023" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Handcuffs restrain..... But I can tell this is not your area of expertise..... You have non-real ideas of forces not applied.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24024" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Tell me something real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24025" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you read the definition?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24026" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(127, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T19:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The knowledge that the universe had a beginning has very little connection to the sort of God Aristotle and Jefferson envisioned. Actually, scratch that, to the extant that Jefferson's idea of God requires the universe to have a beginning, he is that much different than Aristotle. Which, once again, was my point. Which one was more "christian" is irrelevant to me, as neither was a Christian in any real sense of the world.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24027" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So... It is a quote is it real?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24028" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:33:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If it impIied, it is reaI. If it is threatened, it is reaI. <br />Yours is a serious IeveI of deniaI, truIy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24029" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T19:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T19:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz--Scotus may be a medieval doctor, but he isn't a "doctor of the church" is he?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24030" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">again, cops qiII peopIe every day and beat many more every day. It is absoIuteIy reaI.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24031" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:34:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Having the tools to build a house and building a house are different.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24032" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Uniess you are saying there is no consequence for not obeying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24033" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Note that the small amount of substance that John Ashman offers for his trollish arguments about Jesus are identical with the assumptions of the modern "scholars" or the Bible. Jesus was a Jewish man, and Jewish men got married, so since Jesus didn't get married he must have been gay.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24034" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's deeper than that samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24035" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">i aIso beIieve it for many other reasons, not oniy that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24036" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:35:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Though I doubt John Ashman knows anything about historical-critical scholarship, just bad pop-historical journalism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24037" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, have you been beaten?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24038" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and I'm aIIowed to beIieve it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24039" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">PeronaIIy, no. I now peopIe who were.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24040" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">if you don't use force then Ieave your gun, you don't need it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24041" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But it never happened to you? So it isn't real to you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24042" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure it is, because I now it can happen to me and wiII if I refuse to obey.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24043" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Catherine, INTJs are a fine type to be, though I very much doubt you are actually an I</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24044" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So things can be real that you have not directly experienced?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24045" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But force, until applied, is just a concept which you believe to be real.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24046" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T19:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What of ethics and morality? Are they concepts as well that can be realized in act?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24047" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T19:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T19:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joel HF you are right....he was only, bizarrely, beatified in 1993...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24048" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Liz Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T19:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Liz Neill at 2014-09-27T19:45:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Linking to the guardian as a credible source makes me laugh... I should submit my "Jesus was an alien theory".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24049" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T19:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T19:48:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">First any not heretical version of Molinism must affirm one simple reality. Total predestination is prior to foreseen sins. Anyone who says otherwise is a heretic.<br />1. Molina's view was, as best can be determined, God sees in His scientia media (middle knowledge- between knowledge of necessary things, 2+2=4, and free choices, such as God's choice to create) the possible future contingents, He elects say Peter to grace and consequently chooses the world in which Peter consents. Based on his consent, God then predestines him to heaven. Some Molinists (not Congruists) hold that God first elects Peter to glory (unconditional election) and then the rest.<br />Some congruists argue, rather convincingly, that he was heading in a more Congruist direction. But I will leave that alone as controvertible.<br />2. Congruism differs in that God chooses the grace congruous or fitting to the foreseen circumstances, and in choosing the grace effects His election. Most Congruists would hold that God first predestines Peter to heaven, then foresees possible future contingents, then chooses the grace congruous to his consent, and so on. Whereas in the case of the reprobate, He may give grace, and the grace is truly sufficient, but He knows that cooperation will not be given<br />3. Later versions of Molinism moved away from the principle of predefinition of graces. Though condemned and forbidden by Jesuits in the 17th century, this has yet to have any judgment of the Church rendered to it. The predominant version is that God sees possible future contingencies. In each some are consent, some do not. By choosing which one to actualize, He effectively predestines some to grace and reprobates others, not based on any predilection or intrinsic determination of grace. Based on the foreseen consent He then predestines them to heaven.<br />There are variations, such as trans-damnationism (which is, frankly, untenable, as it is essentially a denial of any election, and makes it so that the reprobate are impossible for God to have saved)<br />It must be kept in mind though, that whatever theory is chosen that the first grace and final perseverance remain unmerited, and that predestination in its totality is unmerited. The conditional Molinist position is that predestination to glory is based on foreseen merits, but still it remains that predestination taken as including both grace and glory is unmerited, since any merits come as gifts from God's grace anyways. In this way Molinism avoids semi-pelagianism and circular reasoning. Further, Molinism as approved in the Jesuit order, affirms that grace is efficacious in actu primo<br />See whether or not election to glory to based on foreseen merits or not, is actually a triviality. It is neither fundamental to the Molinist understanding nor its difference with Thomism, seeing as predestination taken in its totality is unconditional in any orthodox system.<br />The fundamental difference between plain Molinists and those that are Congruists is this, that the divine decree prearranges the consent given to the grace via God's will about X circumstances, in the Congruist system, whereas those who are not Congruists hold that the divine decree prearranges the grace which is seen in the scientia media to be efficacious.<br />In either interpretation of Molina we have God seeing possible futures, and choosing that cooperation will happen and arranging it, either in the circumstances (congruism) or the grace itself (Molinism).<br />The vast majority of Molinists hold that, even prior to God's foreknowledge, efficacious grace is already infallibly going to produce the salutary act. The difference between Thomism and Molinism is not the infallibility of this, but how the efficacy of grace is actually ensure. The ontological difference of sufficient and efficacious grace in the Thomist system exists because of the much older Augustinian distinction between grace which enables and grace which moves the will. In the Molinistic system, the grace itself does not have any intrinsic determining motion to it. Still there remains an infallible connection, in that God chooses, prior to the free determination of the will, that this grace will be efficacious<br />So God says, this grace will be efficacious. He then (to use crude language) consults His scientia media, and foresees under what circumstances and/or with what grace consent will be given, and He chooses to actualize those circumstances and/or that grace. Or, if the man is passed over, He does not actualize said circumstances/grace, though He still grants a grace truly and intrinsically sufficient. He just chose not to actualize the contingency or possible reality wherein the man consents.<br />There is a small minority of Molinists who have held that grace is not efficacious this way (called in actu primo and the predefinition of grace), but rather that God sends various graces and foresees the actual consent and bases His predestination to glory on that. So we do not have any predilection, nor congruous grace, etc. This sounds more like what you were holding and I was not aware of its existence as a deviation from Molina (who most certainly did not hold this). Probably a small minority as Jesuits were ordered not to teach it. From the little I have gathered from my source (Fr. Gonzalez S.J, De Gratia) there is more to it, but he makes only passing remarks. He does say something about choosing different orders (or possible world's if you like) for reprobation. Basically boils down to, in any number of various orders some will be damned. God chooses among which orders to actualize, and in so doing chooses the elect and the reprobate, but not by any special predilection for this man over that. There is even a version called trans-damnationism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24050" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-27T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(165, 76%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-27T19:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Samantha: at the time, he told me the "I/E" was the closest split (ie, I was only slightly more I than E). But I think I am more of a confirmed introvert as I get older. (NB that being talkative in certain situations does not necessarily make you an extrovert.) Anyways, that's not the part of the INTJ description that seems off to me. More the parts about being super driven and not procrastinating, etc</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24051" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat-- the assumptions of the method make it possible for them to make claims that are supposedly based on "scholarship" even though they have a total lack of evidence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24052" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T19:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The Thomist rejection, of course, is that all of this posits that God's scientia media knows what you will do given X or Y, because He knows you all so well and can therefore foresee it. But this is now an effect is known from a necessary cause. One might remember Augustine's take down of that view of divine foreknowledge. He granted Cicero was right, that that denies free will, and then argued that God knows the will because He causes it....he actually sounds almost more Thomist here than Augustinian.<br />It amazes me that in actual academic treatments, Thomists are usually attacking Molinism as denying free will AND introducing potentiality in God...it is like te worse of both worlds</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24053" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh, I know being a talker doesn't make you an Extrovert. I called Joel being an Introvert, for instance.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24054" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And John Ashman, if you actually think that Guardian article is "deeper than that," then I'm concerned for you. The article is a sad exercise in wishful thinking, that's all.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24055" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-27T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-27T19:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Anyways, what weirds me out about the personality types/temperaments thing is that I have met people who are so into it that they act like people are just puzzles, and that all of human interaction is just typing people and figuring out how to game the system.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24056" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I said, it's total pseudo-science. There's a little something to it, that's all. Plus the guessing is fun</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24057" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I'm three for three on the people I know in real life who I guessed correctly</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24058" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-27T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-27T19:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil (Sorry to drag on about the temperaments despite that part of the conversation having long since died down.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24059" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T19:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T19:58:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Although I admit I would have guessed you were an ENTJ, Catherine. I used to think I was an Introvert, but then I realized I was just hanging around too many idiots.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24060" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Catherine Joliat" data-date="2014-09-27T19:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(122, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Catherine Joliat at 2014-09-27T19:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Feil Yeah, I don't think it's complete garbage, I just think people can become a little obsessive about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24061" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Cohoe, are you familiar with the position, trying to avoid the more stupid consequences of denying Christ's beatific knowledge (such as saying He had Faith), that He was given prophetic knowledge of who He was?<br />Even when modern scholars agree that certain positions are BS, they seem to presume you can never go back to the old position....I got in trouble at the DSPT for saying that that view was "impossible" because that is inflammatory language...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24062" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz, I don't quite understand your question, but I think the answer is yes?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24063" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are lots and lots of things you simply can't say as a scholar of the Bible these days, not because they've been disproven, just because they aren't allowed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24064" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-27T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-27T20:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Personality types: just Aristotelian categories applied to personalities. Not science - just a means of organization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24065" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T20:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T20:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wish I could see that Medaille conversation. Ah well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24066" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">PIease don't try to speaq in traps, especiaIIy very poorIy Iaid ones. Actions and beIiefs are different. MoraIity at the end of a gun is simpIy Iow brow vioIence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24067" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I meant this- some have refused to return to the view that Christ had the beatific vision, but also recognize the absurdity, e.g., of a wholly ignorant Christ or a Christ who only believes in Himself (by faith)<br />So they posit what they think is a compromise, that Christ knew who He was through infused "prophetic knowledge" Even though this is essentially denying all the claims of the modernist position, and is logically incoherent (as He would still have to have Faith, as no created species can be adequate for knowing the trinity!)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24068" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T20:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What's the motivation for denying Christ had the beatific vision?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24069" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T20:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T20:07:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John, I don't think your keyboard is really broken.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24070" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Originally, it went along with the denial of basically everything miraculous about Christ</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24071" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now some scholars are trying to use the same broken framework to come to slightly less hollow conclusions</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24072" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(129, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Kenz is right, it can be pretty sad to watch.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24073" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">GoeI HF - It is, but sometimes I cut and paste the missing Ietters. But your experience in this issue is zero.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24074" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T20:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(109, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T20:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have evidence that you are an idiotic troll and that explains the inconsistently used "hilarious" misspellings just as well as occasional c&p and a broken keyboard.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24075" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Guess which geys are missing.<br />asdfgh_____<br />See Translation</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24076" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:17:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is bizarre....someone who preemptively blocked me maybe? I am almost afraid to ask what he is actually saying</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24077" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jesus was gay, yada yada yada</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24078" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">what's wrong with him being gay? Homophobic much?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24079" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh so a blaspheming heretic that I would have to block immediately anyways....or, in person, punch in the face.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24080" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T20:19:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Government is force, church must be absolutely separated from state, truth is relative, etc.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24081" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">pretty much. he's testing my "I do not block" policy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24082" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">when and where has church and state being integrated caused a good resuIt with a Iow death count?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24083" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think ignoring him might be the best policy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24084" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(121, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See I block people for my own soul's sake, lest I be tempted to anger</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24085" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Go ahead and try.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24086" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have children... so anger is something to be overcome continually. I don't get angry, just a head shake</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24087" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(38, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T20:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I blocked him for my anger and his dizzying intellect.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24088" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">historicaIIy, government has put the muscIe and vioIence behind the reIigion and has Ied to hundreds of thousands, even miiions of deaths over a disagreement about who created the universe. Because ironicaIIy, reIigions don't beIieve in Ietting God handIe the gudgment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24089" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And the Founders throrougIy understood this. Even though they were mostIy Christians. especiaIIy because they were and new the historicaI consequences of government and reIigion as one united force.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24090" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">now Joshua, he's trying further and more extreme statements for a response, since I suggested ignoring his dumb ass</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24091" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(185, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:24:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">FeeI free, seriousIy. I get more accompIished that way..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24092" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I wonder if he has a tinfoil hat collection?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24093" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes. And they aII have a picture of a chiId with a moustache on them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24094" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Isak Benedict" data-date="2014-09-27T20:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Isak Benedict at 2014-09-27T20:28:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_24095" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:36:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I'll just listen to some tunes, until the wife and 2 kids get home for Rosary call<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeh8Ci4DMwI<br />Halo Benders - God Don't Make No Junk (Full Album)<br />dice el tano culiao de Scaruffi (http://www.scaruffi.com/vo...<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24096" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So we can discusses if Scotus was closer to protestantism than he was to how we think of the sacraments and justification?<br />I am in a Scotus bashing mood today...so Scotus's view that justification is purely a legal reality, and not an actual change in the person, is this connected with his view that God could make rape lawful, because natural law is just whatever God decrees?<br />How about is view on the Eucharist, of adductionism?<br />Why is Scotus recommended again?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24097" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know. A friend of mine said he was beatified in 1993 because he finally made it out of purgatory</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24098" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come again, Mr. Kenz? Scotus said what now?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24099" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but seriously, it is hard to have a theological discussion with the dulcet sounds of the Halo benders in the background...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24100" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HEY. Dissing pictures of people's children is OFF LIMITS.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24101" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HARD NO.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24102" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">HEY! you're breaking the "ignore the worse than Perescott troll" rule</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24103" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry. I missed that we made that a rule.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24104" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, since you're protestant, it was only a suggestion... </p>
</li>
<li id="post_24105" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't really think of myself as a Protestant, btw. I'm an evangelical.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24106" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ugh.... even worse (*hyperbole)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24107" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T20:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T20:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What do you mean by evangelical? (I think it just means Lutheran in Germany.)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24108" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:46:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">24342</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24109" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:50:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">He said you needed perfect contrition to be absolved from sin and that confession, thus, was merely declaratory.<br />It is funny, many of his views were completely dropped, both by "Scotists" and the many Jesuits who held some of his views (following the eclecticism of Suarez), and were considered dead until the 1960's...I think the adoption of some is just a mark of intellectual rebellion (such as the materiality of the soul)<br />There are a whole host of propositions from Scotus that, if they were said after Trent, would have been formally condemned. Some are strangely protestant sounding (at least his views on justification match the Catholic understanding of what most protestants hold...not how I phrased that)<br />But since no one is biting I will get a pizza and beer(we need a real Scotist here... one that holds distinctio formalis or some other dumb idea that was long ago refuted and not held for centuries until contrarianism became a thing)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24110" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">wife and kids are home. It's Rosary time for me anyhoo....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24111" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We should stop at the number 24601</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24112" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T20:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T20:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24113" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:55:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">http://youtu.be/HPIos2mXbUE?t=2m28s</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24114" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Evangelicals are people who define themselves and their lives and their faith by the good news of the announcement of the kingdom by Jesus of Nazareth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24115" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's an Os Guiness quote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24116" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't know, man. I guess I'm a Protestant, but mainline Protestantism is kind of not the movement my lived Christianity is best described by</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24117" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T20:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I thought it meant people who went to quasi-churches, both mega churches and smaller independent operations, and liked altar calls and hand clapping</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24118" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't mean mine, idiosyncratically, I mean the churches I go to.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24119" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr Kenz, nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24120" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T20:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T20:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It's a broad movement, for sure, but it's not defined by that stuff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24121" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T20:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T20:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe HEY. Dissing pictures of people's children is OFF LIMITS.<br />....but...but....he has a moustache!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24122" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha resist the urge</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24123" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T21:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier May the Evangelicals, and the Orthodox, and all who claim the name of Christ, be One. Amen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24124" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(90, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">so... hard...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24125" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Bless you, Samantha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24126" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">thanks, Mr. Richard Delahide Ferrier</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24127" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">singing hymns at your house is one of my very best TAC memories</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24128" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(45, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was always very sad I never got to have you as a tutor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24129" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T21:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier We are doing it tomorrow!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24130" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">funny that, my favorite TAC memory is studying Heidegger at casa Ferrier</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24131" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm suddenly seized with the hope that Mr. Ferrier hasn't been following tNET *too* closely...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24132" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T21:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T21:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier rest assured.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24133" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(186, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T21:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier For now, I watch it to admire the good sense and large learning of Matthew J. Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24134" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">and his patience to step back....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24135" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T21:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T21:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Michael Beitia; I think that if anyone has no sympathy with Heidegger, that person is defective. I think the same about Lincoln, and even Madison.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24136" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">favorite Ferrier quote about Nietzsche "What a waste of greatness! And yet, not totally a waste."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24137" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Did I really say that?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24138" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">overheard after some extracurricular seminar, or lecture, or something.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24139" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(244, 84%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Oh yes. I have a very good memory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24140" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T21:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T21:27:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bless me fr Beitia, for I have sinned, I fell to temptation and fed trolls, in particular denying their arguments of metaphysical forces. Damn the man. Amen.<br />(Edit: Sam, "the man" is not a person. "</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24141" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Let's not damn people, especially after Mr. Ferrier showed up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24142" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe John Ashman just hasn't ever met anyone able to point out the obvious contradictions inherent in his position before.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24143" class="entry odd" data-likes="6" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T21:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T21:19:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, much like you, whenever someone I respect a lot pops into TNET, I am suddenly brought back to the dark reality that there are many people lingering in the shadows of TNET, and I suddenly get very self-conscious about what I have posted. Luckily, I read more than I post here...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24144" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:20:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">One time Mr. Dragoo liked something I said, and I panicked for a while.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24145" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T21:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(168, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T21:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Lol... When you graduated with Brian it is a bit less intimidating.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24146" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:22:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">For the record, I'm a lovely person in real life.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24147" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Sean Robertson" data-date="2014-09-27T21:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Sean Robertson at 2014-09-27T21:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, Matthew J. Peterson, I object to the placement of the modernist acronym ("tNET") in the official heading of TNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24148" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, I'm simpIy waiting for someone to point to them. The Iast severaI attempts required word swapping and straw man buIding. I want to maqe sure aII you you wiII be in church tomorrow, because I wiII be.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24149" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I didn't follow super closely, but I'm pretty sure Dr. Spaceman and a couple others did a solid job dismantling your "arguments."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24150" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(80, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, not reaIIy. It was pretty pathetic, actuaIIy. Word parsing, goaI shifting, strawmen. It was a potpourri of IogicaI faIIacy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24151" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dr Ferrier apparentIy beIieves I'm defective, because aIthough I have nothing but respect for Madison, I have zero sympathy for Iincoin. The man caused the greatest hoIocaust in American history for one reason. Pride.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24152" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">And Nietzsche, for aII his 'errors', maqes you thinq.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24153" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T21:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T21:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sorry you feel that way. But as a majority rule situation, you'd be outvoted. (Regarding the civil war)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24154" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The magority has never been famousIy correct about the nature of things.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24155" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T21:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T21:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yet here we are. <br />Purchase a tombstone that says "I'm going to prove myself right".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24156" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fighting to preserve the Union was much bigger than any one man's pride.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24157" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T21:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(123, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T21:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I always did like Pascal's Wager. <br />Poor motivates but good game theory.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24158" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(188, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it's pretty good motivation, myself</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24159" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:52:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sean, that is my convention, per the suggestion of Pater. tis not heretical, but a latent understanding that the definite article does not deserve a capital letter in the acronym.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24160" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why? There was absoIuteIy nothing sancrosanct about it. <br />i assume you beIieve that if a woman wants a divorce from an abusive husband, that he has the right to beat her or even murder her because the marriage is more important than freedom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24161" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:54:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Never mind, I don't want to talk to you about this.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24162" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr Dragoo, though older, was a year behind me in classes at TAC. I still find it odd that he's a tutor, not because he isn't deserving, but because it makes me feel old...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24163" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 43%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are old. I'm old, and you are older, QED</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24164" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Purchase a tombstone that says "I'm going to prove myself right"."<br />that wouId be exceIIent on IincoIn's tomb.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24165" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but today is Brian Dragoo's birthday!<br />he's the oldest!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24166" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">“At thirty one’s beginning to age, and one’s got to squeeze all one can out of life.” Camus, The Plague (tr. S. Gilbert).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24167" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">06ers are all turning 30.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24168" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(207, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love Camus. anyone want to take a pot shot at that!?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24169" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:56:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">the Rebel is fantastic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24170" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T21:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T21:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Never mind, I don't want to talk to you about this."<br />i wouIdn't expect it. That was a checqmate.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24171" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ha you would</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24172" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T21:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(189, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T21:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">of course..... St. Augustine, however, says that 33 is the perfect age. I found that to be true.... so far</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24173" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T21:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T21:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's something to look forward to I suppose</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24174" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T22:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nice quote.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24175" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">haha, I should have given you credit Joel. sorry</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24176" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-27T22:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-27T22:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, ending slavery>>>preserving union</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24177" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">sure, but for the people who embarked on the war, preserving the union was the real motivator</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24178" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(104, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">absurd to reduce the desire to preserve the Union to the pride of one person. New troll knows history like he knows theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24179" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeff, you mentioned game theory. What do you make of the Prisoner's dilemma?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24180" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A violent end to slavery was justified and fitting.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24181" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T22:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T22:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I aIways have thought that friendship shouId be maintained at the end of a gun. It's that important.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24182" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dude, you are arguing against a position no one has put forward.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24183" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:12:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">troll feeder</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24184" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">sorry, sorry</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24185" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">who is that guy, anyway? I thought he was your friend</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24186" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I know it's tempting, but realize that everything that's typed is just fodder</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24187" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NOT MINE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24188" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">we have butted heads before. I accused him of being an idiot libertarian</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24189" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh yeah, he was the tea party guy. it's starting to come together a bit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24190" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T22:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T22:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha - "Fighting to preserve the Union was much bigger than any one man's pride."<br />i assume this to mean that the ends gustified the means, but I apoIogize if you were against the invasion of the South.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24191" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, it is a sad state of trolling, but much easier to ignore that Scott. I "gust" don't think he gets it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24192" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do prefer my trolls to be a bit less cliche.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24193" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:17:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dear Perescott, for all his faults, is not a typical example of anything</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24194" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">well, other than the typical can't think straight without #Specialgnosis</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24195" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(173, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">even his not-thinking-straight is in a special, idiosyncratic way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24196" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's poetic. but bad poetry, like Donne....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24197" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">it must be sad to have such a shriveled, modern soul.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24198" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">To answer last night's question, my children do not know of episodes 1-3, Or just that they were not worth watching.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24199" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how old is your oldest, Jeffie?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24200" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Star Wars? You guys didn't find anyone to defend 1-3, did you?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24201" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">nope</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24202" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Good. tNET can be crazy, but not *that* crazy</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24203" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:28:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">9, 7.8, 5.5 and 1.9</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24204" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Star Wars is weird for me, personally. the first movie I saw in a theater was "Return of the Jedi" but I'm too young to have seen the other two there. I saw episode 1 when it came out because I was dragged there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24205" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm too "inbetween" with Star Wars</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24206" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't have a full basketball team</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24207" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I do, and my oldest will be 13 very very soon</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24208" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nicely done.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24209" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">consequently, they've seen them, but I haven't... unless you count playing Lego Star Wars, the complete saga on Wii, which I beat</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24210" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">but since I have raised them to be hypercritical of everything.... well, there you have it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24211" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">My kids know them through angry birds Star Wars...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24212" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-27T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-27T22:32:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">CALEB'S HOME BYE</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24213" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T22:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Who is an idiot libertarian?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24214" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Haha.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24215" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T22:33:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is there another troll I cannot see?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24216" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think she's cheating on us. What is a Caleb?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24217" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, I can't use his name, but it's the blasphemer that you would have blocked at any rate...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24218" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(87, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:34:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">but to be realistic, all libertarians are idiots....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24219" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">it's kind of redundant</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24220" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T22:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(151, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T22:35:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is certainly true enough, on both modern and etymological senses</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24221" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't understand them well enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24222" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:36:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:36:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">that's not a defect in you, Jeff</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24223" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(102, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T22:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iibertarians have the highest IQ of any poIiticaI ideoIogy. In fact, a recent study puts us in with conservatives and admits we are the one that keep you in the game with IibruIs.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24224" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T22:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T22:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua, at least has an easy time at catch up with Jeff, Scott and Ashman all blocked.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24225" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">you live in Cali, right Joshua?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24226" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T22:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T22:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">A Iibertarian is essentiaIIy someone who agrees point for point with Thomas Gefferson phiIosophicaIIy or with Iocke, I beIieve, minus the variation in reIigious beIiefs, as there is no set Iibertarian stance on God or Gesus.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24227" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T22:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T22:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Josh blocked me as well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24228" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T22:46:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The even more amusing thing to us about the "Iibertarains are idiots" duIIardry is that every time a study is done by IiberaIs, they try to Iump us in with them and everytime conservatives do one, they try to Iump us in with them too. It's great to be the first picked for the team.<br />Both of the teams hate us, yet both desperateIy want us on the team come IQ measuring time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24229" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T22:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T22:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">do you see his posts, Jeff?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24230" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:46:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">John! you're back. Haven't seen you in awhile. How's it going?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24231" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24232" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You're weIcome [smiIey face]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24233" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T22:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I never saw Ashman! So never had the opportunity to block him </p>
</li>
<li id="post_24234" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T22:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T22:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">how do you feel about the gun laws of California?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24235" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T23:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T23:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">They are written by absolute morons, for the most part. The few that aren't moronic in se, such as the handgun safety certificate, are only there as stepping stones toward something moronic (explanation: of the 14 states requiring a permit to BUY a handgun, California is the easiest...easier than Nebraska, North Carolina....the certificate is given by the gun dealer there and then, and is good for 5 years...whereas you have to go to the courthouse in Nebraska or the police in North Carolina, unless you have a CCW...so don't believe it when people say California requires classes before buying or other things like that...they don't. I don't mind the HSC as it stands [it was better, perhaps, when it was lifetime] since even a cracked addled bonobo can pass the safety test for one...it really is a very basic quiz on common sense.<br />But things like the roster or the different definition of an short barrelled shotgun (because so many crimes were commit with the Circuit Judge/sarc), or the banning of .50 BMG, except for M2s which you can totally own. The granting of licenses for real machine guns to those tangentially related to the movie biz, even though they don't need them, but denying them to Class 3 holders....lots of it makes no sense, even from a pro-gun control perspective. Heck have a CA CCW? Feel free to carry in bars and schools, which you cannot in say Arizona or Texas...but make it capricious to get one. In one country having hunters safety training might suffice, in other (Los Angeles) you have to be a donor to the sheriff or live in El Monte (police chief there grants them, under fairly strict standards but not capricious for once) .<br />Anyhow, California is not as anti-gun as portrayed...it is more gun-schizo. The same legislature that passed mircostamping also actually passed CCW reform that made it easier to carry (though most sheriffs ignore the law) The same legislature that tried passing ammo permit requirements and banning mail order (struck down by CA courts), passed an NRA backed bill outlawing the taking of guns during a declared emergency<br />The same state whose US Senators have bemoaned stand your ground in Florida, has had stand your ground since forever...we have never not had it. And in this same state, the law found no fault with te Korean shop owners who fired on black rioters during the Rodney King rioting...because the law justifies even homicide by a civilian in the suppression of a riot or the protection of real property.<br />You get the picture....kind of schizo</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24236" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T23:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T23:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, my wife and I are both blocked by Kenz, we do not see him. <br />In California the gun laws vary by county. Just a couple months ago they changed the county restrictions in a few counties to allow concealable weapon carry permits with Minimal justification.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24237" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, why would a person want to join the libertarian party, why not be independent?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24238" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T23:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T23:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jeffie, don't do it...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24239" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T23:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We don't usuaIIy. I have been and forever wiII be a member of no party.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24240" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T23:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T23:05:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">"moronic in se" is my new favorite legal term.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24241" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T23:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">There are many more Iibertarians than there are that beIong to the party. Iibertarianism is a very MOR phiIosophy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24242" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T23:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T23:07:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still surprised no one is going to stand with Umberto Eco with me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24243" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-27T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(107, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-27T23:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">BTW, all bought in California. Now that the court has struck down the 10 day waiting period (which, btw, was shortened by the liberal CA legislature from 15 days, in the mid 90's as electronic systems allowed faster checks...which again destroys the black and white narrative) the remain CA process may take 5-15 minutes longer than say in Arizona.<br />Necopma (Ruger SR45), Apsit (Springfield 40 subcompact) and Pia Nona (Ruger Vaquero .357 magnum) Missing are my Ruger 10/22, the Bauer baby brown clone I have, and the Marlin 336C I sold due to being poor but miss terribly.<br />I am debating, if I ever get ahead financially, buying an AK-47 or an AR-15...yes you can buy those in CA, without special permits are requirement...laws are confusing and complicated...leave it at that But probably neither...I like cowboy guns too much...lever action again I think...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24244" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T23:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T23:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I spent a lot of time as a miscreant growing up shooting both AR-15s and AKs . . . . I think it changes when you have children</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24245" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-27T23:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-27T23:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"against" do you mean? I have thought about reading Eco but I am depressed enough (melancholic ya know).</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24246" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-27T23:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(171, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-27T23:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">not exactly John, more of an ignorance of something I find very interesting</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24247" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeff Neill" data-date="2014-09-27T23:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeff Neill at 2014-09-27T23:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, but why should I follow that belief? <br />I am not party affiliated, I have worked too long in politically charged industries where joining one party or another was bad for business.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24248" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T23:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T23:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Iibertarianism? Most peopIe don't 'foIiow' exactIy. It's a hard course. You have to be abIe to say "Iet's NOT make a Iaw, Iet's do this ourseives" and "I'm not going to Iet this bother me". But it's very rationaI in the sense that there are no perfect soIutions, so if you're going to choose betwen two soIutions, both imperfect, and one costs nothing, the other costs $biIIons, why choose the expensive one? Mariuana causes a Iot of death, but onIy because it's iIIegaI. More Iaws, more crime, more taxes, more hassIe, Iower productivity, etc, etc. or you can thinq of it from a Iochean point of vew - it's onIy a beiief in naturaI rights and the wiIIingness to foIIow through on them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24249" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T23:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T23:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Perhaps we should look to what moves us, and what we would suffer for. For me, that is, first, Christ and his Holy Church, and next, my beloved American Republic.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24250" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-27T23:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(210, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-27T23:48:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is the nature of Iibertarianism. Each person chooses his battIes and goaIs. I know very many reIigious Iibertarians that view their beIiefs to be personaI and not universaI. For me, it is the Constitution, as the RepubIic has become the enemy of the peopIe.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24251" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-27T23:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-27T23:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Here is a bit of the old time religion for those who have never known it, or, perhaps, forgotten it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m6iT-CX2QQ<br />Lou Reid and Carolina - It's Hard To Sumble<br />via YouTube Capture<br />YOUTUBE.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24252" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It puzzles me how those two loves go together, Richard Delahide Ferrier. The American Republic has been the engine of the Enlightenment, which can almost be defined in terms of its anti-Catholicism. Locke's hatred for the Church comes immediately to mind.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24253" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T00:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T00:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Sadly, she has become so factious and divided . . . . [late again to post]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24254" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:04:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I love you, Jeff, and I love America, and I think you are misled by a false idea about this republic. But, you are wonderful about the silly limits of Aristotle, and the wonders of Plato, and Eros.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24255" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:10:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I love you, Richard, and I love the American people, but I cannot love what America stands for. But if I have a false idea concerning America, I am open to hearing it. Do you disagree that America is essentially Locke land?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24256" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I do.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24257" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T00:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T00:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Geoff, remember that the CathoIic Church for much of its history was dominated by eviI, poIitics and aII nature of sin and unGodIiness. It is onIy in the Iast 100-150 years that the Church has gone from vicitmizer to victim. i wouid be tortured or kiIIed for my beIiefs today.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24258" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">If not Locke land, then what animates the American regime?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24259" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier St. Paul, and the law written on the heart. Plus a healthy rejection of the Old World's trust in Princes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24260" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How is St. Paul at the heart of the American regime?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24261" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier And also a moderate trust in Locke and others ... not a dark and deep reading of them, but a common sense interpretation.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24262" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">One does not need a dark and deep reading of Locke to see the threat to our beloved Church. It is right on the surface.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24263" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 29%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier You can get my mature sense of these things from here. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_25...<br />Amazon Search<br />Amazon.com: declaration statesmanship a course in american government<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24264" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T00:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T00:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is the threat? Freedom? IndividuaIity?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24265" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So many books, so little time. But I will check it out. In the meantime, your claims still puzzle me, especially given your love for Plato.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24266" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But I will not press you if you don't want to be pressed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24267" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:26:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier You are kind. Let us both try to be moderate! blessings on you and yours. rdf</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24268" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, if you insist. But I will press your friend, Matthew J. Peterson, whom I have become very fond of despite our differences.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24269" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier I reserve the right to intervene. And, I deeply agree with Matthew J. Peterson</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24270" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(223, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:33:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">So I gathered. Your intervention would always be welcome. Praying for your good health.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24271" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier Thanks. My kidneys are sort of letting me done at present!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24272" class="entry even" data-likes="8" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-28T00:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(85, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-28T00:35:00 with 8 likes</div>
<p class="text">everyone should be fond of Matthew despite his subtle serpentine Straussianism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24273" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:37:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did you ever check out that source I recommended? Or is it just too funky?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24274" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Richard Delahide" data-date="2014-09-28T00:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Richard Delahide at 2014-09-28T00:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ferrier He follows the decent path of Lincoln, not the crooked ways of some alien intellectual.,</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24275" class="entry odd" data-likes="7" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T00:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 47%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T00:44:00 with 7 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Jeffrey Bond, while not big on the founders or the definition of American patriotism as holding an ideology, and in fact while usually being the one yelled at for being anti-American, one thing that strikes me is that one of the myths both about the founders and America is that there is one, single monolithic ideology making up the idea of America.<br />Locke? Certainly anti-Catholic. Even more so in his private correspondence (there are two versions of the essay on toleration...and one even more supports you contention). But did George Washington share the same sentiments when he banned Guy Fawkes day or wrote the pope back telling him he was free to appoint bishops and that the liberty of the Catholic Church would be safeguarded?<br />Even Leo XIII, while condemning Americanism, still had much praise for America.<br />I think it can be too simplistic to assume that the totality of what went into making America is the enlightenment ideals of the founders (even if we take the more radical statements of Madison and Jefferson as representing the group). Maybe it is destined to always be in competition with these ideals, but American society is as much founded on ideals of biblical law and religion/. The separation of Church and state here, e.g., does not look like the secularist regime that even now France or Mexico have...heck Mexico is very anti-Catholic in some of its laws, though for a long while those laws are more or less defunct in enforcement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24276" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T00:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T00:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Certainly there is not one, single monolithic ideology making up the idea of America. But if America is to be an intelligible thing, it must have a core, and that core, I think, is Lockean. The other traditions that originally mitigated against Lockean ideals, have, in time, been subsumed by it, a proof of sorts that the Lockean ideals were dominate from the beginning. So while others think our woes are due to a departing from the founding, I argue that what we see today is the logical playing out of those principles.<br />The fact that Catholicism was not openly banned (as Samuel Adams, for example, desired) does make America appear to be better than the communist regimes, for example, that instituted atheism. But the agnostic position of America, and this Leo agrees with, is in fact no better in principle, and the danger is much more subtle. Open persecution has always strengthened the Church. The conversion of American Catholics to Lockean dogmatic tolerance appears to be much more deadly in the long run.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24277" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T00:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T00:58:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, Joshua, can you say what were the criticisms of Leo XIII were? And this not to criticize the founding but to guard our souls. Even Pink recognizes that they have come to fruition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24278" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T01:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T01:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not sure America is all that intelligible...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24279" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Well, we have some idea of what we are speaking of, do we not? America has been a force in the world and continues to be so. I think Locke would be very pleased were he among us. Though he would have recommended, as he did to England, that Catholics be treated as they were in Japan. On second thought, the conversion of American Catholics to his way of thinking would have made it unnecessary to push them into sulfur pits.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24280" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T01:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T01:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here's my man Leo XIII on 'Merica and George Washington:<br />"Nor, perchance did the fact which We now recall take place without some design of divine Providence. Precisely at the epoch when the American colonies, having, with Catholic aid, achieved liberty and independence, coalesced into a constitutional Republic the ecclesiastical hierarchy was happily established amongst you; and at the very time when the popular suffrage placed the great Washington at the helm of the Republic, the first bishop was set by apostolic authority over the American Church. The well-known friendship and familiar intercourse which subsisted between these two men seems to be an evidence that the United States ought to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic Church. And not without cause; for without morality the State cannot endure-a truth which that illustrious citizen of yours, whom We have just mentioned, with a keenness of insight worthy of his genius and statesmanship perceived and proclaimed. But the best and strongest support of morality is religion.”<br />Referring to what Washington said in his farewell address, with the help of Hamilton. And by the end of his life, I think Hamilton believed it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24281" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(163, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:13:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, the U.S. "ought to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic Church." Leo is prescribing, not describing, and obviously hoping to make the best of it. But when it comes to his analysis of the principles (apart from the people), it is clear Leo has grave doubts whether America became what it OUGHT to have become.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24282" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T01:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(148, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T01:15:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Leo is referring to Washington's Farewell address when he said this:<br />"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.<br />It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?<br />Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24283" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(101, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:32:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">See Leo's Au Milieu des Sollicitudes, paragraph 28, where he speaks of the situation when, "by a fortunate inconsistency, the legislator is inspired by Christian principles--and, though these advantages cannot justify the false principle of separation nor authorize its defence, they nevertheless render worthy of toleration a situation which, practically, might be worse."<br />The state is obliged to hold up religion and the moral law not by accident, but by intention. Toleration, for Leo, involves putting up with something that is bad in order to avoid what is worse. Let's not forget, then, that Leo thinks separation of Church and state, as America understands it, is bad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24284" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T01:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T01:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew, I see that Leo praises the protection of the Catholic Church, not praise for Washington's speach which would be at discord with what he says elsewhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24285" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He praises the amity and concord of prelate and president. Leo thinks it providential that the see is established at that hour.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24286" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:38:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">In Immortale Dei Leo says this about the view that the state does not have any kind of duty toward God: "Moreover, it believes that it is not obliged to make public profession of any religion; or to inquire which of the very many religions is the only one true; or to prefer one religion to all the rest; or to show to any form of religion special favor; but, on the contrary, is bound to grant equal rights to every creed, so that public order may not be disturbed by an particular form of religious belief."<br />"26. And it is a part of this theory that all questions that concern religion are to be referred to private judgment; that every one is to be free to follow whatever religion he prefers, or none at all if he disapprove of all. From this the following consequences logically flow: that the judgment of each one's conscience is independent of all law; that the most unrestrained opinions may be openly expressed as to the practice or omission of divine worship; and that every one has unbounded license to think whatever he chooses and to publish abroad whatever he thinks."<br />"27. Now, when the State rests on foundations like those just named--and for the time being they are greatly in favor--it readily appears into what and how unrightful a position the Church is driven."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24287" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T01:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 54%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T01:41:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Bwhahaha - John Ruplinger - you can at least admit that in the passage I cite from Longinqua Leo is, in fact, clearly referring to Washington's Farewell Address.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24288" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T01:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T01:43:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe my issue is more with seeing the idea of America as defined by a set of ideals or ideology as if that is the essential and a priori principle that makes America to be a thing, to be a nation. I do think there is an American ideology of sorts, I just think that part of the mythology of that ideology is that it is ideology that binds people together in a society.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24289" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T01:46:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T01:46:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fond of you too Jeffrey Bond. Much love going around tonight on the tNET.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24290" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(181, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T01:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I had fine tequila tonight, but its effect was clarifying.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24291" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(138, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that notion is right out of Aristotle, Joshua. The purpose of the regime, what it stands for--its vision of justice and the good life--are what make the regime a regime. A comic and a tragic chorus, he explains, are different even though the population and the territory they occupy are the same. So too we know when a regime has changed when its purpose changes, quite apart from the material causes that make it up.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24292" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(198, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Remember the old adage, Matthew: drink while debating legislation, but delay the vote until the morning. Does that marvelous story come from Herodotus?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24293" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">TNET is getting to be a love fest. Almost like Woodstock: If you are tired to chew, man, pass it on.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24294" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T01:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T01:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm pretty sure it does, Jeffrey: about how the Persians would debate treaties and business dealings while drunk and "sign" them sober.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24295" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T01:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T01:54:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ah, those Persians. What would the world have looked like now had there been no Marathon, Thermopylae, Salamis or Alexander the Great?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24296" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T01:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T01:57:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Leo XIII was certainly not approving of the American system simpliciter. And America does not meet the ideals of a state as the Church sees it, e.g. the submission to Christ by society as society. But he certainly praises positive aspects, and we should concede to Matthew J. Peterson that one example of that praise is Leo's quoting with approval Washington's farewell address<br />Maybe we could say that American has been like an adolescent very sure of its ideas and sense of self, but not yet possessing such with full maturity. The conflicts seen within the American framework may be a sign of this.<br />Orestes Brownson once said <br />"Among nations, no one has more need of full knowledge of itself than the United States, and no one has hitherto had less. It has hardly had a distinct consciousness of its own national existence, and has lived the irreflective life of the child, with no severe trial, till the recent rebellion, to throw it back on itself and compel it to reflect on its own constitution, its own separate existence, individuality, tendencies, and end...<br />Its idea is liberty, indeed, but liberty with law, and law with liberty. Yet its mission is not so much the realization of liberty as the realization of the true idea of the state, which secures at once the authority of the public and the freedom of the individual—the sovereignty of the people without social despotism, and individual freedom without anarchy."<br />Maybe part of really attaining that mission would be to purge enlightenment ideals, and the conflicts in America have been because of the opposition of those ideas to other principles deeply engrained in America...and maybe the right side is losing the battle....I don't know. Have you read the proceedings of the NRA and their attempt at a Christian amendment? Maybe that was the direction we needed to go but failed....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24297" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T01:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T01:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Actually, I wonder if Leo XIII was aware of the NRA and its attempts to repudiate some aspects of the enlightenment? Including a constitutional recognition of the authority of Christ...though they still aimed at maintaining separation of Church and state</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24298" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T02:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough, Matthew.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24299" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(154, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is an interesting text from the De Potentia, apropos of nothing in particular: (the context in the De Potentia is whether unformed matter could have been created prior in time to formed matter and is a kind of commentary on the opening of Genesis; also, I'm only translating the really interesting part: I'll let you puzzle through the rest just to irritate John Boyer):<br />"But others understood the formlessness of matter not insofar as mater lacked every form, but as something is called unformed which does not yet have its final completion and ornament; and [formless matter] can be posited in this way, that the formlessness of things even precedes the formation of things in time. Which would indeed, if posited, seem fitting to the order of a wise artisan who, while producing things in existence, does not immediately institute them in [their] last perfection after they were nothing; but first makes them in a certain imperfect being and leads them to perfection afterwords."<br />"Alii vero intellexerunt informitatem materiae non secundum quod materia omni forma caret, sed secundum quod dicitur aliquid informe quod nondum habet ultimum suae naturae complementum et decorem; et secundum hoc potest poni, quod etiam duratione informitas rerum formationem praecesserit. Quod quidem si ponatur, ordini sapientiae artificis congruere videtur, qui res ex nihilo producens in esse, non statim post nihilum in ultima perfectione naturae eas instituit, sed primo fecit eas in quodam esse imperfecto; et postea eas ad perfectum adduxit; ut sic et eorum esse ostenderetur a Deo procedere, contra illos qui ponunt materiam increatam; et nihilominus perfectionis rerum ipse etiam auctor appareret, contra eos qui rerum inferiorum formationem causis alii adscribunt. Et hoc intellexit magnus Basilius, Gregorius, et alii sequaces eorum. Quia ergo neutrum a veritate fidei discordat, et utrumque sensum circumstantia litterae patitur; utrumque sustinentes ad utrasque rationes respondeamus." (QQ De Potentia, q. 4 a. 1 co.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24300" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jeffrey Bond" data-date="2014-09-28T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jeffrey Bond at 2014-09-28T02:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll think on it, Joshua. But it is 2:00 a.m. here; and I, not being as youthful as you young bucks, must get to bed. A pleasure as always, gentlemen.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24301" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:01:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">This seems to lend a great deal of support to a Lavalesque view of evolution.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24302" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:02:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, you're use of "NRA" isn't exactly transparent there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24303" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:04:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I assume you're talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_amendment<br />Christian amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Christian amendment describes any of several attempts to amend the United States Constitution by inserting explicitly Christian ideas and language. The most powerful such attempt began during the American Civil War and was spearheaded by the National Reform Association.<br />EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG<br />September 28 at 2:03am · Like · Remove Preview<br />Joshua Kenz NRA = National Reform Association, duh...I doubt the National Rifle Association would promote a Christian amendment<br />The NRA here had a few supreme court justices supporting it...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24304" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, I wasn't aware of the National Reform Association until a couple minutes after your post.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24305" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:08:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">The duh was tongue in cheek... Really recommend Craycraft again on religious liberty...he gives some fascinating excerpts from them, including debates on "consent of the governed" and a lot of self-critical reflection on the Constitution, as I said including some by Supreme Court justices</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24306" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 79%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm kinda curious what you didn't like about my response about Baptism. If we take it as dogmatically true that no one can be saved without Baptism, it seems that we have to understand "Baptism" to primarily refer to the infusion of sanctifying grace in the formulation of the dogma. Otherwise, it seems like there could be no leeway for belief in things like Baptism of Blood and Desire.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24307" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T02:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T02:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe: true they fought for union, but as this wonderful little book points out (he has a longer version as well), as the war went on the north especially saw the war as very much about ending slavery:<br />http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0807119040/ref=mp_s_a_1_20...<br />What They Fought for 1861-1865 (Walter Lynwood Fleming Lectures in Southern...<br />AMAZON.COM</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24308" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T02:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(51, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T02:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The cynical view is that this was on account of Lincoln's rhetoric, but the the non-cynical view incorporates that as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24309" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But the dogma is that the sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary, as a necessity of means, for salvation. By understanding baptism to mean sanctifying grace, you are not actually affirming the dogma. There is one baptism. And that means the sacrament, not sanctifying grace. It is an example of understanding the dogma of the Church other than how the Church has always understood it.<br />Your way is less messy, but it has the vice of not upholding the actual dogma as given by the Church. The standard answer wrt to baptismus flaminis or baptism of blood is a bit more involved. Will post a bit more on that in a second</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24310" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(157, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also, it looks like Baptism of desire is _de fide_ (although, possibly not in the sense you were denying?):<br />"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism<br />"By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Fourth Chapter, A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24311" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is not de fide, but sententia fidei proxima</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24312" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But that has nothing to do with my point</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24313" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">What about Trent? "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24314" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The sacrament of baptism is necessary by a necessity of means for salvation for all men without exception.<br />But you are raising a tangential point. You can dispute with Pohle/Preuss, Ott, and later decrees of the oly office about calling baptism of desire de fide later</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24315" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-28T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-28T02:29:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, thinking Proust overrated is a tell-tale sign of Pelagianism...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24316" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-28T02:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-28T02:29:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Also what Myers-Briggs thing is Caleb?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24317" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 45%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Joshua Kenz, I've been waiting on the "standard answer" you alluded to above and was just confused about the tangential point because of things I read in Ligouri and Trent.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24318" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:39:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Dang, can't plagiarize myself this time.<br />Okay, think of faith. Faith is necessary as a necessity of means, absolutely and this absolute necessity is intrinsic...at least in respect to actual faith in God and His providence. Even God could not decree otherwise, since it is necessary to be ordered to God as a final end to be saved, and hence one must know his final end, etc.<br />Baptism, by which I mean the sacrament, is necessary by means, not just precept. But its necessity is not absolutely intrinsic. What this amounts to is that the sacrament is the only means we can avail of for salvation. And ignorance, even if inculpable, e.g. does nothing other than excuse one from its necessity as a necessity of precept.<br />Still, since the necessity is not intrinsic, God can supply the res of the sacrament outside of the sacrament. The necessity of baptism being hypothetical and not absolute, with respect to its intrinsic necessity. It still remains a funny thing, though, in a way since the sacramentum et res is not importation, and hence they are not made members of the body, are unable to receive the other sacraments, etc. In some way it has to be viewed as outside the means established for us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24319" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, what the dogma refers to is the sacramental order which we can use to become incorporated in the Mystical Body?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24320" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(161, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:42:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Whereas, Baptism of Blood/Desire are special infusions of sanctifying grace by God in particular situations?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24321" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T02:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T02:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">i.e. they're essentially irrelevant to the dogma in question, since we cannot use them in order to be saved?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24322" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-28T02:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-28T02:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Matthew you wrote:<br />«1) Well, I suppose the so-called "Reformation" just up and happened out of the blue? Bad reformation. Bad enlightenment. The Other just up and came out of nowhere. Not the Church's fault at all? Heh. Whatever floats our prejudices. But I often argue about how complicated and varied the period was, and I freely admit that the history is up for grabs. But that works both ways. Let's not pretend like those arguing it was good don't paint cartoons the same way enlightenment propaganda does»<br />Of course the Reformation was largely the fault of corruption in the Church. But between the Reformation and the High Middle Ages was the late Middle Ages. My claim was that it was mostly _not_ the fault of the popes from 1073-1303, and their doctrine of the two swords and the subordination of the temporal to the spiritual. During that period one in fact sees a whole series of reform movements in the Church that were allied with the papacy (Cluniacs, Cistercians, Franciscans, Dominicans etc.). These were reform movements that Dawson calls "centripetal." Late in that period you get "centrifugal" movements, which were initially largely wordly in character—above all French nationalism, Italian particularism (oppostition to the emperor _and_ the pope), and one one might call "Frühkapitalismus". It is that goshawfull son of perdition Philip the Fair, who in his victory over Boniface VIII brings the High Middle Ages to an end, and inaugurates the "Late" Middle Ages. Only during the Avignon exile under the thumb of the French, and afterwards when the popes had returned to Rome, but as Italian princes among the others, where the distinction between the two swords (every bit as important to our model as the subordination of one to the other), and the role of the emperor as universal temporal ruler analagous to the pope as universal spiritual ruler, had been practically denied, only then do you get strong anti-papal reform movements culminating in the Reformation.<br />«2) But what I find even more interesting about your response is this: you don't want to automatically ascribe the cause of the reformation and the enlightenment to what I identify as the prior cause. Fair enough. But maybe you and others should apply that sound bit of logic to "Modernity" and American history»<br />Fair enough, I admit to having often painted simplistic cartoons of modernity, America and all the rest of it. _My_ accusing _you_ of simplistic views of history was partly studied hypocrisy. I do agree that their is a mixture in modernity, with some legitimate revival of ancient republican virtue and devotion to the common good (Aelianus's "Arthurian republicanism") mixed with the Lockean stuff. But I agree with Bond that ultimately the Lockean element is dominant and corrupts all the good bits.<br />PS. I'm for a universal temporal government, so of course I admire Madison for arguing for a Union against little democratic tyrannies—size of political community is not where I disagree with you...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24323" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That is my understanding.. Maybe not irrelevant, but as in some sense outside the order God has established in His Church.<br />WRT to the status of the doctrine. The reason Ott o Pohle/Preuss, among others, classify it is as sententia fidei proxima, is because the object of the definition was the sacrament. The mention of "or desire thereof" could, possible, be read similarly to the excepting of the BVM from the discussion on original sin...which did not amount to defining the IC but leaving it open. Sent fid. proxima means that in their judgment it could be defined dogmatically...though even I am not so sure of that (I recall a few authors using it as an example in the dispute between what could be considered de fide divina, with some arguing that it is only a theological conclusion, certain and taught definitively, but not itself revealed.<br />Perhaps others, beside Liguori, understand it as already dogma. The holy office statements I am thinking of had to do with the reconciliation of certain religious communities descended from Fr. Feeney...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24324" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-28T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 39%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-28T02:59:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Come on Pater the Popes destroyed the idea of the Emperor when they subverted and destroyed the Hohenstaufen. They kept it up afterwards by encouraging a multiplicity of national monarchs and playing them off against each other, but this bit them in the ass with Henry VIII and the French kings.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24325" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T02:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T02:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ott fwiw first lists<br />Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.) <br />then immediately after arguing that<br />In case of emergency Baptism of water may be replaced by baptism of desire or baptism of blood (sent fidei proxima)<br />Without any explanation. I relied on other authors. I will see if I can remember where they treated the question and where I got my info.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24326" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think I was understanding Baptism along the same lines but conflating the dogma in question with what the Church teaches about the gift of Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24327" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">(even if the nuance didn't show in my formulation )</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24328" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-28T03:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(230, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-28T03:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">but speaking of the Papal ass, this is magnificent, Pater (I own it):<br />http://press.uchicago.edu/.../book/chicago/P/bo3631422.html<br />The Pope's Body<br />The book The Pope's Body, Agostino Paravicini-Bagliani is published by University of Chicago Press.<br />PRESS.UCHICAGO.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24329" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 36%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW my hometown is, oddly, a center of followers of Fr. Feeney... it was one of the first things I encountered coming back to the faith. Your statements would have caused frothing. Not that they accept my explanation either...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24330" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(119, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:13:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">The crude analogy I used in CCD was that baptism was a bridge built by God for us to get from sin to life. He orders us to take that bridge. Now you may not hear the order, and hence not be held responsible for not knowing. But you still need to cross the bridge to get to the other side (necessity of means) and that is the only means God has offered you. Still, if you are blocked along the way, nothing prevents God from rescuing you through extra-ordinary means, like an emergency pick up by a helicopter.<br />The point I always though necessary to emphasize, was that baptism of "desire" or blood were not only not on par with the sacrament, they are not, alternate means to the end either, but as it were affirmations that God can grant the end without the instrument/means He has given us. Still only on the condition that we truly will to use the means He has given us (in voto)<br />Does that make sense?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24331" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, and that roughly matches the the picture that has stuck with me from the Baltimore Catechism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24332" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:18:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text"></p>
</li>
<li id="post_24333" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah, but don't use that image with the Feeney followers....and as with any image or simple picture, potentially misleading. It is only abusively that we say there are "3 kinds" since baptism of blood is only denominated such analogously, same with desire....heck baptism of desire only "works" e opere operantis after all...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24334" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is bizarre</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24335" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:22:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Power went out, yet wifi is still up???? TV, outside light, street lights, are out but the wifi is on.... what witchcraft is this....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24336" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the ladder vs. rope kind of captures that point well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24337" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:22:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do you have a battery backup?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24338" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I bought a nice UPS for my computer equipment.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24339" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:25:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">No, I have no battery backup...I mean I do in storage not in use, and there isn't one for the wifi nor the modem. Power was off for three minutes....wifi stayed on...I think it is witchcraft</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24340" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 34%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Maybe they have a built in battery back-up? Because even my skype phone, on te same power strip, went off</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24341" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T03:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T03:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's possible, but I think you would know about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24342" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I would think so too...I will check it out at some point.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24343" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T03:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T03:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And I am suddenly very tired....good night TNET....wow this will be the first time in over a month I went to bed before 3 am....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24344" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T07:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(199, 97%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T07:38:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater Edmund, Caleb is an INTJ, very strong on each.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24345" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-28T08:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-28T08:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">no that's a terribly misleading picture. there is only one Baptism, there aren't "three kinds"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24346" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Benjamin MacGowen" data-date="2014-09-28T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Benjamin MacGowen at 2014-09-28T09:02:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">This is in my news feed.. forever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24347" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-28T09:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-28T09:02:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">you're welcome!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24348" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Lauren Washburn" data-date="2014-09-28T09:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(117, 31%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Washburn at 2014-09-28T09:15:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rogers I'm just going to read back through the previous comments before I jump in.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24349" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T09:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T09:24:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss I'm just going to roll my eyes at how petty people think the divine nature is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24350" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T09:33:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T09:33:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">You must read them all, every petty one. Lauren.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24351" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Benjamin MacGowen" data-date="2014-09-28T09:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(112, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Benjamin MacGowen at 2014-09-28T09:41:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is the endless thread an excess, or is the ignorance of it deficiency?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24352" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T09:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T09:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I agree with Michael, that image is misleading. There is only one baptism. (Cf. Eph. 4:5)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24353" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-28T09:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-28T09:44:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">cf the Nicene Creed</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24354" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T09:45:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T09:45:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rebecca, I don't understand what you wrote. Are the people petty, or are people thinking the divine nature is petty? And why, for either of those?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24355" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-28T09:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-28T09:47:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">if you don't allow for God to let everyone into heaven but Hitler and Judas, you're petty Daniel.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24356" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T09:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T09:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">[I suspect Rebecca has a Nietchzean conception of God that is to say that he is not bound by petty rules and such.] </p>
</li>
<li id="post_24357" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T10:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 67%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T10:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The "petty" bothers us. It can't be of people [grammatically . . . at least easily] and it can't be of nature properly speaking. Could it be said of eye rolls? Something is petty and we thinks it is rules. Respondeo: the necessity of baptism seems a hard rule . . . even Augustine struggled with it. In truth it is an amazing gift.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24358" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(126, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T10:38:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">It seems to me that difficulties are ended when one simply says, "God is not bound to the sacramental order. However, insofar as He operates outside of the sacramental order, we can't say much beyond, 'It is possible.' Theology can only talk about and reason about the ordinary means of salvation, i.e. the sacramental order, since science must be about universals.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24359" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Q.E.D.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24360" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T10:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T10:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">^And I do think that is a demonstration.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24361" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-28T11:15:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-28T11:15:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mr. Beitia, drop that candlestick!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24362" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-28T11:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(175, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-28T11:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm familiar with the concept of "baptism of desire" but not "baptism of blood". To what circumstance would that apply?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24363" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-28T11:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-28T11:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Martyrdom. Abortion. The Jewish Holocaust.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24364" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joel HF" data-date="2014-09-28T11:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joel HF at 2014-09-28T11:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Martyrdom.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24365" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-28T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-28T11:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, that makes since. and also eases the problem of limbo for babies in the case of abortion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24366" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-28T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-28T11:21:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">*sence.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24367" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T11:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yeah. The other two claims of Scott, though possible, are highly contentious. Typically martyrdom is what is mean by Baptism of blood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24368" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Annette FitzGerald" data-date="2014-09-28T11:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Annette FitzGerald at 2014-09-28T11:21:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">*sense. </p>
</li>
<li id="post_24369" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T11:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 37%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T11:25:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Benjamin MacGowen: I too wrestle with this question.<br />TNET's thoughts are not my thoughts. They are too much for me.<br />But I suppose the same could be said of Satan as well as...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24370" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Benjamin MacGowen" data-date="2014-09-28T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(25, 93%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Benjamin MacGowen at 2014-09-28T11:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">@ Matthew, as the post says, I can unfollow it if I wanted, but it is become like a friend unto itself; an annoying friend albeit.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24371" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T11:31:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Just. Can't. Bring. Self. To Say. Goodbye.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24372" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Matthew J. Peterson" data-date="2014-09-28T11:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-09-28T11:31:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Must. Unfollow.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24373" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-28T11:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-28T11:32:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Jehoshaphat Escalante if only the Hohenstaufen had been just a leetle bit more cooperative...<br />True story: when I was a novice we had lessons in the history of our monastery by a gentle old monk (since deceased). In one lesson he started talking about the Investiture Controversy. He said that the popes were motivated by envy and resentment against the German _Volk_. I was flabbergasted by this as it seemed totally out of character. But then it occurred to me that he was remembering the "facts" that he had learned in history class in high-school during the 3rd German Reich... Hard to shake of customary ways of thinking entirely...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24374" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 62%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I appreciate the concerns of rulers who sought free investiture. But the theology of the matter is clear. Regardless of the personal motivation of some of the popes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24375" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T11:34:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T11:34:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is of course always fun to imagine the popes as evil and manipulative.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24376" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-28T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-28T11:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Many of those popes were also saints.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24377" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Pater Edmund" data-date="2014-09-28T11:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Pater Edmund at 2014-09-28T11:35:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Most famously Gregory VII.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24378" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(141, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T11:38:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, the text accompanying the picture in the book it's from explains that.<br />But, as I said, the picture is only misleading if you don't pay attention: it clearly shows that there aren't three kinds of Baptism but rather three senses of the word according to a certain order. As I said before, that's why it's depicted as ladder vs. lifeline.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24379" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T11:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T11:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Show some subtlety, people </p>
</li>
<li id="post_24380" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T11:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T11:39:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And, Rebecca Bratten Weiss, I'm curious where you think the pettiness comes in?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24381" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Jehoshaphat Escalante" data-date="2014-09-28T12:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-09-28T12:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Pater if only the POPES had been a teetle more cooperative!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24382" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T12:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T12:39:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Basically - the ancients had an anthropomorphic view of the divine nature according to which many petty human traits were attributed to the gods, and even, by the Hebrews, to Yahweh. Along come Plato and Aristotle, hooray, and now we have a sense of perfection, absolute being, etc etc....then along comes Christian revelation and we have a sense of God as personal, loving, etc (Plato's brain kersplodes). My question is: why, given all that we have learned, would we go back to an anthropomorphic idea of the divine according to which if we don't play by his rules he'll smite us? We agree to play by his rules because he is an absolute being and because he loves us and we wish to love him back as best we can. But assuming that if we don't do this we're damned is really presuming quite a bit. For all we know God might decide to save everyone anyway; but it would be presumptuous and unloving of us to bank on this instead of doing as he has asked. <br />I hope he does save everyone, but that he'll also let me kick Hitler repeatedly in the ass once we're all there..</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24383" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T12:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T12:40:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Daniel Lendman's approach makes sense to me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24384" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T12:41:00" style="background-color: hsl(98, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T12:41:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss BTW - I actually DREAMED about this bloody thread last night. I dreamed about a lot of other things as well, but still. Heilige scheisse.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24385" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(143, 41%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:01:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Before calling Catholic theology petty, one should first understand it...and I don't think you did.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24386" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, Edward Langley the picture is only misleading if you read the text on the picture?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24387" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(118, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:04:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">FWIW, I think God is extremely petty. After all the difference between me and the dung on my shoe is less than between me and God. And if I cared about the well being of even the dung on my shoe with even a small fraction of the care God exercises to me, that would be pretty "petty". Pettiness, after all, is said because one is caring about de minimis, but we are all de minimis compared to God.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24388" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T13:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T13:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^That is very Chestertonian of you Joshua.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24389" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(135, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:16:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Mrs. Fitzgerald I think with infants in general, we should avoid speculation. We know that, in se, baptism of desire and blood are not open to them (and being a murder victim, e.g. being aborted, is not equivalent to martyrdom). Arguments trying to establish such things always wind up either running afoul of the Church (e.g. Cajetan's extension of baptism of desire via vicarious desire of the parents was ordered expunged from his writings as contrary our beliefs or Pius XII's allocution to midwives) or rendering what we do know false (e.g. extending the concept of martyrdom to being the victim of any sinful act, yet martyrdom involves more than that, i.e. dying for Christ)<br />People speculate. For at least 400 years there has been an idea that God could "accelerate" the use of reason, and, conjoined with grace, including charity (which follows forgiveness of sins as effect to efficient cause, but precedes it as formal cause precedes its effect) then they could have baptism of desire, but only insofar as they are "de-infantized" by having the use of will<br />Actually, the acceleration idea is even older. Aquinas addresses it, in addressing the martyrdom of the Holy Innocents<br />(Objection1) Ad primum sic proceditur. Videtur quod martyrium non sit actus virtutis. Omnis enim actus virtutis est voluntarius. Sed martyrium quandoque non est voluntarium, ut patet de innocentibus pro Christo occisis, de quibus dicit Hilarius, super Matth., quod in aeternitatis profectum per martyrii gloriam efferebantur. Ergo martyrium non est actus virtutis.<br />To the first it is thus proceeded. It seems that martyrdom is not an act of virtue. Now every act of virtue is voluntary. But martyrdom is sometimes not voluntary, as is clear of the Innocents killed for Christ, of whom Hilary says, commenting on Matthew, "they were borne to maturity in eternity through the glory of being a martyr." Therefore martyrdom is not an act of virtue.<br />(Answer): Ad primum ergo dicendum quod quidam dixerunt quod in innocentibus acceleratus est miraculose usus liberi arbitrii, ita quod etiam voluntarie martyrium passi sunt. Sed quia hoc per auctoritatem Scripturae non comprobatur, ideo melius dicendum est quod martyrii gloriam, quam in aliis propria voluntas meretur, illi parvuli occisi per Dei gratiam sunt assecuti. Nam effusio sanguinis propter Christum vicem gerit Baptismi. Unde sicut pueris baptizatis per gratiam baptismalem meritum Christi operatur ad gloriam obtinendam, ita in occisis propter Christum meritum martyrii Christi operatur ad palmam martyrii consequendam. Unde Augustinus dicit, in quodam sermone de Epiphania, quasi eos alloquens, ille de vestra corona dubitabit in passione pro Christo, qui etiam parvulis Baptismum prodesse non aestimat Christi. Non habebatis aetatem qua in passurum Christum crederetis, sed habebatis carnem in qua pro Christo passuro passionem sustineretis.<br />To the first therefore it must be said that some have said that in the innocents the use of free choice was miraculously accelerated, so that they also suffered martyrdom voluntarily. But since this is not shown by the authority of Scripture, therefore it is better said that the glory of being a martyr, which in others is merited by their own will, the little children obtained through the grace of God. For the pouring out of blood for Christ is born in place of Baptism. Whence just as with baptised children, the merit of Christ work for obtaining glory, through the baptismal grace, just so in those killed for Christ the merit of the martyr Christ works for obtaining the palm of a martyr. Whence Augustine says, in a certain sermon on Epiphany, as if speaking to them, "He will doubt your crown in your suffering for Christ, who also does not reckon that baptism profits the little ones of Christ. You were not old enough to belief in the Christ who was to suffer, but you had the flesh in which you were to suffer for the Christ who was to suffer."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24390" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(176, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:21:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Aquinas' answer here satisfies me, in part because it doesn't tryi and claim speculative mechanisms, but relies on God's grace as its ratio. There have been attempts to apply similar reasoning (e.g. a baptism "of suffering"), but I think it is beyond the ken of theology. We know what God has revealed. certain things, like baptism of blood or desire can be specified in some measure.<br />Of course whether infants who die without baptism are somehow saved from original sin before death or not, we can say two things 1. They will suffer no injustice and perhaps will be happy (as Aquinas argues) 2. Parents and others who neglect baptism, e.g. by putting it off for more than a month after birth for vain reasons, mortally sin and will be held accountable as if they excluded their child from salvation, even if God saves the child in spite of them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24391" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(115, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:23:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel Lendman, I think that is the lowest insult you have given me! To compare what I said to a Chestertonism ... I will try harder at having substance and not just witticism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24392" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Joshua - your problem is that you are equating your interpretation of Catholic theology with catholic theology per se. <br />And no, I disagree about the relation between the human person and God. As persons made in his image, we are far closer to God than we are to the dung on anyone's show; any personal being has a very high degree of incommunicability, so that each of us exists as though we were the only one, as a kind of secondary infinity: the infinity of a single ray emanating from a point, perhaps, in comparison with the infinity of a line extending into infinity on both sides. Our value is intrinsic, and not something that God just plastered onto us because he was bored with the self-communing of the trinity.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24393" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The very one what?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24394" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Thomists are so cute.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24395" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 71%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:26:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are infinitely distant from God, which is why the Incarnation is such a marvelous thing<br />And I guess Pius V, Pius XII Sixtus VI, etc were all petty here too?<br />And I am not sure what "personal being" means there. Yes we are made ad imaginem Dei. But we are like to God, God is not like to us.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24396" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(131, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Why, for wanting you to say what you mean and not end halfway through a sentence?<br />"so that each of us exists as though we were the very one"<br />The very one what? This grammatically makes no sense</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24397" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Take a gander at some of Wojtyla's writings. There's been some good stuff done in the last 100 years.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24398" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:27:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 91%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:27:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss My computer did that, silly.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24399" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 66%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have read everything he has written. Can you at least clarify what you wrote?<br />Or do you believe in heckling and not engaging?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24400" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 72%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You are able to edit a post</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24401" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:29:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Each person exists as though he were the only one. Don't know what happened there except I was eating a sammidge.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24402" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T13:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T13:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's funny Joshua Kenz, I actually didn't think to look at the black caption. But, even then, even people like Aquinas use words like "kind" in ways broad enough to be properly applied here. (The fourth way, for example, depends on there being a proper sense in which God is the highest in various kinds or "genera")</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24403" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:35:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 38%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:35:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss My Nietzschean God and I are gonna go split some wood. I'll check back later for further amusement.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24404" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T13:38:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T13:38:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Rebecca, in one way, it seems like what you are saying has to be true. There is something wondrous and even "infinite" about a personal being (by which I mean an individual substance of a rational nature).<br />However, on the other hand, you surely admit that we are infinitely less than God. <br />Are you and Joshua just speaking past one another? Or is there something really fundamentally opposed between what you've said?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24405" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:42:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think that is true, or even makes sense when speaking of the relationship to God. But leaving the personalism and disagreements with it behind,<br />I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that the sacrament of baptism is one only, or that baptism of desire or baptism of blood are denominated so analogically, do not impart the character of baptism, etc. Since we weren't talking about infants, and in fact they were raised well after, I can only think that you either reject baptism of blood/desire, or you think they are sacraments, or you think that the Church's dogma that baptism of water is necessary for the salvation of everyone without exception is wrong, or you think the reconciliation of baptism of blood and desire with that dogma is wrong....<br />IOW, you didn't actually advance a claim..you just gave a broad snide about pettiness and "anthropomorphism" and general mockery. Yes it is cute to care about actual truth.<br />So from the top<br />1. Dogma- baptism of water is necessary for the salvation of everyone without exception<br />2. (saltem sent. fidei proxima)- baptism of blood and baptism of desire sometimes may be substituted<br />3. Explanation- baptism's necessity is extrinsic, and only hypothetically intrinsic. Because it is the only means God has given us, but it is not necessary from its nature for what it accomplishes, so God can act outside of it<br />4. Baptism of desire/blood are not sacramental and do not impart the character of baptism. And so are only called baptism analogically (sent. certa)<br />5. Baptism of desire works ex opere operantis, that of blood quasi ex opere operato (sent. communis)<br />Leaving aside 5, the rest is simply well established Catholic theology. WRT , Has nothing to do with personalism or anthropomorphism. If you reject 1 you are a heretic. Reject two, you are not a heretic, but you are still going against definitive teaching and are probably materially heretical. 3 is the only explanation I have ever heard, if you have an alternate let's have it. Rejecting 4 would be a theological error and censurable as such. And 5, well that is getting into little details</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24406" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:43:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:43:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss We have to be infinitely less than God, because God is infinitely more than us. <br />However, we enjoy a kind of infinity, that the dung on the shoe does not have - as an individual substance of a rational nature, but even moreso because of the depth of our interiority and because of our infinite world-openness (which even those who are low on rationality still possess). I agree with Max Scheler that it is in our religious sense especially that we transcend the other animals - in our need for God, our being made for God. <br />We're basically talking about the same thing, I suspect, but with different structures of interpretation or emphases. <br />Dammit stop distracting me people! There's firewood to cut!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24407" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T13:44:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I appreciate the need for chopping wood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24408" class="entry even" data-likes="4" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:44:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">Okay, that I do not disagree with and Aquinas says as much in a clearer fashion than Scheler ever could...the whole anima est omnia in potentia thing</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24409" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Regarding #1 there's sooooo much that can be said about what that entails: thus people are still arguing about it, here and everywhere.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24410" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(133, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss I think it's prudent to keep in mind that the formulation of a dogma is not just the answer to one question, but also the formulation of a whole new set of questions: or else doctrine would have just dried up at some point, and ceased to develop.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24411" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(132, 85%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:51:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">What is there to argue about? The sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation and that is only the means God has offered us...seems rather clear cut by itself.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24412" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am not sure what any of that means....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24413" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:52:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">On a completely different subject, I came this close to blasting a hole in the wall of the house last night...power goes out again (briefly)...the front door slams open and then I hear something crash in the other bedroom...phone ain't working so I grabbed my .45 and investigated....dang raccoon had made it in...front door latch was stuck open.<br />Okay I didn't almost blast a hole...my finger was not on the trigger...but it is the closest I have come.<br />Very exciting. Chased the thing out with a broom instead. Pretty sure gunshots would have attracted attention</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24414" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:53:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss I've had to shoot a couple of coons that were after my chickens.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24415" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(130, 42%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:55:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss The reason we argue is that if we have very dear friends or family who are not baptized (I'm half Jewish by the way) - it's very distressing to think that the interpretation of the dogma means no heaven for Grandpa. And this isn't just sentimentality, either, because presumably God loves Grandpa too.<br />Though on the other hand things have been sort of shitty for the chosen people for quite some time.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24416" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T13:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T13:55:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss Time for me to come out of the closet as an almost-universalist.....<br />....and go cut that wood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24417" class="entry odd" data-likes="5" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T13:58:00" style="background-color: hsl(139, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T13:58:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Did anyone here deny the possibility of baptism of desire? Wouldn't that have been more an issue (leaving aside whether the will must be explicit, or how must explicit faith is necessary and those other details that I don't recall anyone addressing)? Pointing out that the exceptions, as it were, are not equal to the rule, by itself, doesn't exclude your almost-universalism<br />Though I am an almost- massa damnata guy mysel</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24418" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T14:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(144, 35%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T14:03:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">Between the two dispositions, almost-universalist, almost-mass damnata, the latter seems to be very much closer to what the Fathers of the Church say.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24419" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T14:11:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">The only reason I say almost there...being in the world and seeing how people are shows just how far from God the mass of men are in their daily life. But I have seen remarkable changes by grace too...God's mercy certainly is greater than man's depravity. How it all works out, only He knows this side of heaven....</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24420" class="entry even" data-likes="5" data-name="Lauren Ogrodnick" data-date="2014-09-28T14:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-09-28T14:11:00 with 5 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think the "distress" it causes people to think of all their unbaptized friends or relatives (and as an extension those living in sin) should not cause distress but rather increase one's trust in God and also our prayers to Him for those people.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24421" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T14:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T14:17:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, you and your Fathers of the Church.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24422" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T14:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T14:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Now here is a real question of debate, was John the Evangelist assumed, body and soul, into heaven at the end of his life?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24423" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T14:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T14:19:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Yeah. The motto of my school is "Ad Fontes," as in to the sources of theology guided by St. Thomas. The sources being, Scripture and the Fathers.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24424" class="entry even" data-likes="6" data-name="Joshua Kenz" data-date="2014-09-28T14:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Joshua Kenz at 2014-09-28T14:22:00 with 6 likes</div>
<p class="text">Off to Mass....Miserére mihi, Dómine, quóniam ad te clamávi tota die: quia tu, Dómine, suávis ac mitis es, et copiósus in misericórdia ómnibus invocántibus te.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24425" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T14:23:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">good discussion after dragging Rebecca away from that petty wood pile.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24426" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T14:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(167, 57%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T14:23:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Going waaay back to Peterson's point about slavery becoming a goal of the war, that fits with what I've read. and of course lots and lots of early northern recruits were motivated by abolitionist conviction. I was mostly talking about the motivations of the Lincoln administration and probably most of Congress as well.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24427" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T14:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T14:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">suavis et mitis et copiosus in misericordia. INDEED</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24428" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-28T14:37:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-28T14:37:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'll deny the loosest interpretation of baptisms of desire and blood. Murder victims aren't martyrs, and "I just wanna be good" isn't desire</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24429" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-28T14:39:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-28T14:39:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">and it's just sentimental BS that makes people refuse to see dogma for what it is.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24430" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Sentimentality is often mistaken for mercy.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24431" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-28T15:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-28T15:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Has anyone listened to Goyette's lecture on faith seeking understanding? It really is indoctrination. While he admits the sacred science begins in principle with an act of the heart bowing down to Dogma, he reduces sacred theology to the rational demonstration of the pre-ambles of the Faith. Take note. This leads to heterodoxy. He does not even use the Church's pre-ambles, but only Thomas' five proofs. What a limitation!<br />Sacred theology involves acts of love, evangelization, persuasive tropes, poetry, in keeping with reason but not reducable to an act of reason, to strengthen understanding of the ineffable. <br />http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/.../lecture-dr-john-j...<br />Lecture Audio: “St. Thomas Aquinas on Faith Seeking Understanding” | Thomas...<br />THOMASAQUINAS.EDU</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24432" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:25:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:25:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Nope.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24433" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-28T15:30:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 61%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-28T15:30:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Please do, I would be interested to hear your view. He seems to reduce the sacred science to rational demonstration of Thomas's five proofs. Of course it is much bigger than this. Knowledge of God is indeed an analogy, but Faith seeking understanding via the sacred science truly is more than this reduction to natural theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24434" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-28T15:31:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-28T15:31:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">He does seem to get the admixture of error part correct, but he stops right there.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24435" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T15:32:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 69%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T15:32:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"Let us take for example natural matter. A young person, by his observations, especially if they are directed, will accumulate a certain amount of knowledge in natural matters. From this point of view, we are convinced that the reading of great naturalists can help a lot. It is material, although very important. Of course, logic is not necessary at this stage. Let us go a bit further: there is no question of starting the study of the science of nature with the Physics and the explanation of the notions of matter, form and privation. Rather, why not start with the Parts of Animals?"---Msgr. Dionne, "The Necessity of Logic for each of the Intellectual Virtues"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24436" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T15:44:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T15:44:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">syllaphor:<br />1) All Thomists are heretics because they do not assent to dogma with sufficient love and poetic flair.<br />2. TAC requires the study of Aquinas.<br />3. TAC grads must be exposed as heretics ad aeternum despite the precept to have nothing to do with heretics after the 2nd admonition. [Meanwhile ignore, completely, blasphemous apostates.]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24437" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T15:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T15:47:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, mercy has often been mistaken for sentimentality as well</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24438" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:49:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24439" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:49:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:49:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have not found that to happen nearly so often.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24440" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">just on tNET</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24441" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:50:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, it's over an hour long!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24442" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:50:00" style="background-color: hsl(172, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:50:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Fair enough.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24443" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(64, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T15:51:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">color me skeptical that Scott listened all the way through</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24444" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Perhaps my wife and I will listen to John's lecture as we fall asleep tonight...</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24445" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But probably not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24446" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T15:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T15:51:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'd like to here a defense of the rationality of this curriculum for a change (not that I necessarily think that this is a bad curriculum, but just that its order isn't manifest to me):<br />"THEO 101-102 Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine (2 semesters, 3 credit hours each semester) A systematic presentation of the mysteries of the Faith, the moral and spiritual norms of Christian life, the liturgy and the sacraments, as revealed in Scripture and Apostolic Tradition and as defined by the magisterial documents of the Church.<br />THEO 201 Introduction to the Old Testament Major selections from the books of the Old Testament are read within the norms of Catholic exegesis. Special emphasis is placed upon the Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the Wisdom literature. One major purpose is to inspire a love of God’s Word, which is fully revealed in Jesus Christ.<br />THEO 202 Introduction to the New Testament The Gospels and other books of the New Testament are read in the light of Catholic norms of exegesis. The course will show how the Gospel texts reveal the real historical Jesus, true God and true Man, and will address contemporary critics who seek to distance the texts from Him. The course will also introduce the main themes of the Pauline corpus, the Johannine literature, and the Catholic Epistles. The primary goal is to make manifest through an in depth study of the Sacred texts that Jesus Christ is the fullness of God’s Revelation.<br />THEO 301 Moral Theology A study of the data revealed in Scripture and Tradition concerning what men must do to please God. Elaboration of the data, together with sound analysis of human action and a grounding of natural-law ethics, will equip the student to understand the current crisis in moral theology.<br />THEO 302 Catholic Apologetics A presentation of the basic arguments for the credibility of the Catholic faith. Students learn how to develop both cogent arguments for its defense and effective means of persuasion. Individual topics range from God’s existence to Papal Primacy"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24447" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">We are still making it through her first time watching Chuck.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24448" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Do we call him John now that we're 30? he's still Mr. Goyette in my head</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24449" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(255, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Lol!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24450" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T15:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(147, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T15:52:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">The whole "defend TAC's curriculum" thing is getting old.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24451" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(150, 53%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I was living near TAC for a while, Samantha, and came to know the tutors on a first name basis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24452" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(106, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:53:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is odd to think about it.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24453" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T15:53:00" style="background-color: hsl(204, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T15:53:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">That sounds nice.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24454" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:54:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Edward. The order, prima facie, seems reasonable for a cursory overview of theology.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24455" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T15:54:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T15:54:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^^ where's the Aristotle in that theology curriculum? Didn't mention Thomas Aquinas once! Outrage!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24456" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 100%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Especially an overview of theology that ends in apologetics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24457" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, I want to see a principled reason to proceed in that order as well as a defense of the inclusion of apologetics.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24458" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apologetics is the purpose of the curriculum, no?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24459" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is it? why?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24460" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T15:56:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">waaaaaay better than what I had, Scott's rants to the contrary notwithstanding. I learned almost nothing in 5 courses, grad and undergrad.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24461" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:56:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's just what it seems like in the purposed schema.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24462" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T15:59:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Humans are often petty, which is why petty behavior has been ascribed to God. Smiting, coercion, threats, punishment, torture, murder, etc. Whether or not God exists, our vision of him wiII aIways be created in our image, and that wouId make for a very Iimited view.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24463" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(155, 49%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T15:57:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Daniel, that seems to imply a more limited view of Sacred Theology than "fides quaerens intellectum" does.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24464" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:57:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:57:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^Oh, sure.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24465" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, it looks like a college that employed such a curriculum would miss out on the fulness of Sacred Theology </p>
</li>
<li id="post_24466" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T15:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T15:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But if I wanted to prepare someone for apologetics I would first catechize, then familiarize them with scripture; based on those two I would educate about certain practical principles of how to live, and then I would end with how to make an apology for the faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24467" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't think "prepare someone for apologetics" should be the primary purpose of any course of study</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24468" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 81%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, our vision is not created in our image unless our vision is only from ourselves. If the vision is truly from God, then it will merely be expressed in our terms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24469" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:00:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">apologetics should be something theologians and philosophers do in their spare time</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24470" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(217, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha, that is another question, and a good one.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24471" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:00:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">or well-educated lay people</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24472" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:01:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I am inclined to agree with you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24473" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:01:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:01:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But, St. Peter seems to indicate something that might seem to say the opposite. 1Peter 3:15</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24474" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:02:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24475" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">a well-educated lay person, let alone theologian, should be ready to give a reason of the hope that is in them without taking a class on "apologetics"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24476" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:03:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I don't see how that suggests that Sacred Theology is primarily ordered to defense of the Faith.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24477" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:03:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^^There could be an art involved?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24478" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:03:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:03:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Then study rhetoric</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24479" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:04:00" style="background-color: hsl(83, 74%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T16:04:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">WeII, certainIy the BIbIe is a very Iimited and contradictory view. The Oid Testament portrays a rather a horrifying concept of God. My wife insists that the change from God V1.0 and God V2.0 is expIained through, weII, having a chiId, that Geesus (sp) was the cataIyst for God's change in demeanor.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24480" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:05:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">and certainly curriculum that subordinates theology to "apologetics" is getting something wrong, right?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24481" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:05:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I say this as an evangelical who deeply believes in evangelism, but "apologetics" is not evangelism</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24482" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:05:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think that would depend on whether it subordinated theology to apologetics, simply speaking or not.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24483" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:06:00" style="background-color: hsl(116, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:06:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It perhaps has a small part to play in evangelization broadly understood.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24484" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">But before one defends, one must understand what is defended. It is not last as being the highest.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24485" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(153, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm downplaying the role of apologetics too much, I think. But still, "apologetics" as a scholarly discipline does not seem legitimate to me</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24486" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:07:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:07:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm still actually unclear about what people mean by "evangelization".</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24487" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">spreading the gospel!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24488" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:08:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Making disciples of all nations!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24489" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(239, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Telling the good news!</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24490" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Apologetics seems to mean responding to criticisms of theology in the way one can respond to such criticisms.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24491" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How can you not know what evangelization is?? Every once in a while you Catholics still astonish me.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24492" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:09:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Ashman, a lot of brilliant men and women throughout history have denied that bible is contradictory. <br />Given that you have participated in this thread before, I am sure that you are keenly aware that your tone and statements are highly offensive. Given such an awareness, it becomes hard to think that you wish to sincerely engage in dialogue. <br />What do you seek here? Here there are only sinners who hold a light in their hearts, the likes of which you cannot imagine. If you dare to let that light that is God himself penetrate your heart, then a world of life and love will open up to you. If not, then I am afraid you will find here, only foolishness. We preach Christ Crucified. The Son of God, son of Man, who has redeemed us all from sin.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24493" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 83%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:09:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">If that's right, then it would only be linked to evangelism insofar as the evangilezandi resist conversion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24494" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:09:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:09:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes, that's right.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24495" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(108, 88%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:10:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Samantha Cohoe, what I mean is that I only know what "evangelization" is in a manner proportioned to naming and not the definition.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24496" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(142, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">It can be useful for removing objections. Limited.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24497" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:10:00" style="background-color: hsl(156, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:10:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">The name is pretty much the definition</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24498" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T16:11:00" style="background-color: hsl(164, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T16:11:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">But what precisely is studied in the particular course?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24499" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:12:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:12:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">So, when a priest preaches to his congregation, is that evangelization? Or does evangelization require that the hearers be non-believers?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24500" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:13:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:13:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it is evangelization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24501" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about what one does when teaching theology in advanced studies?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24502" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 33%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T16:14:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">non-believers (which overlaps with the category "catholic" these days)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24503" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:14:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:14:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">St. Paul talks about preaching the gospel to the Romans, even though their faith is "preached throughout the world."</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24504" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:16:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Insofar as we are in need of continual conversion, we are in need of continual evangelization.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24505" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:16:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:16:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">yes, but he also distinguishes between evangelists and shepherds and teachers</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24506" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Yes.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24507" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(179, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:17:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think you can extend the use of evangelist to apply to almost any teaching about Christ, but primarily it refers to spreading the gospel to those who haven't heard and accepted it</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24508" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Daniel Lendman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(159, 50%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Daniel Lendman at 2014-09-28T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That would seem to be the first meaning.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24509" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 80%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">the word has become ambiguous especially when we throw the term new evangelization into the mix.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24510" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(111, 70%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:18:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Is evangelization part of the active or contemplative life?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24511" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:18:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 48%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:18:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">And priests in the pulpit should definitely take the opportunity to evangelize, because of what John said about the overlap of the category non-believer with the category catholic</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24512" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">I have no idea what "new evangelization" is</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24513" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(124, 46%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:19:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think it usually means that modern people need to be taught about Catholicism in a novel way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24514" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:19:00" style="background-color: hsl(145, 59%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:19:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">evangelization is as new as 2000 years ago, isn't going to get any newer</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24515" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(191, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:20:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">hm. ok. sounds suspicious, but whatever</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24516" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T16:20:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 60%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T16:20:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">new evangelization = new good news. Clear?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24517" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(169, 75%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:21:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I think generally, what people mean, is that the mode used by the great teachers of the Church from Augustine to Pius XII or so is somehow no longer able to be as effective as it once was.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24518" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:22:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:22:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I'm never exactly sure what the proponents think has changed.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24519" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(88, 77%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I heard it described once by a prelate thus: "what does faith mean to you?"</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24520" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(77, 78%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">oh, so this is why you're confused about what evangelization is?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24521" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">No.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24522" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="Samantha Cohoe" data-date="2014-09-28T16:23:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Samantha Cohoe at 2014-09-28T16:23:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">That's a very good question to ask, as long as it's followed by sound teaching on what faith ought to mean.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24523" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:24:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:24:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">I just often wonder if I understand all these terms people throw around.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24524" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T16:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 30%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T16:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">NO. That was the last word. Face palm . . . . by a prelate. And hence the confusion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24525" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T16:28:00" style="background-color: hsl(146, 65%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T16:28:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">I find it especially puzzling in class when the teacher makes a big deal about some relatively straightforward point without ever coming clean as to why that point requires such emphasis.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24526" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T17:29:00" style="background-color: hsl(134, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T17:29:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">ApoIogetics is defense, not to say "I'm sorry". (I say this outIoud because I didn't know that before and had to Iook it up in my handy 1828 Websters)</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24527" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T16:40:00" style="background-color: hsl(166, 96%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T16:40:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Seems Iike the kind of thing that wouId be necessary with any ideoIogy, the abiIity to defend it and those trained to do so.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24528" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-28T16:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(160, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-28T16:47:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">As I understand it, the 'New Evangelization' is not new with respect to content but with respect to the condition of the recipients. It refers to the spreading of the Gospel to non-believers who already belong to Christian cultures. They have heard of Christ, but they don't yet know the Good News in any meaningful way.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24529" class="entry odd" data-likes="1" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-28T16:52:00" style="background-color: hsl(96, 92%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-28T16:52:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or maybe it refers to believers in the sense of the already baptized who don't know or care about the Faith they have inherited. I'm not totally sure about that.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24530" class="entry even" data-likes="3" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-28T16:56:00" style="background-color: hsl(136, 52%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-28T16:56:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Here is something: "The New Evangelization is distinct from the Old Evangelization The intended audience for each is different. The New Evangelization is not directed at non-Catholics, non-Christians, or non-believers. ...The NE is concerned with deepening the religious experience and commitment of nominal believers. ...the NE seeks to call back non-practicing believers to active participation in the Church." This is from a talk by Bishop Edward Clark on the Emerging Challenge of the NE for a Renewed Church</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24531" class="entry odd" data-likes="4" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T17:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(120, 44%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T17:00:00 with 4 likes</div>
<p class="text">What concerns me about these things, is that there is no sign that non-practicing Catholics have ever been in short supply (starting with St. Ignatius of Loyola who, in his youth, was anything but "religious"). Also, it is slightly concerning that people today attach so much value to novelty: if someone in Aquinas's day had called him an innovator, he would have taken it as an insult, at the very least.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24532" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T17:17:00" style="background-color: hsl(137, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T17:17:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">Katherine, hence the confusion on evangelization. Also the "how" is confusing. I think I read the same thing as you a short while ago. Catechism, death, judgement, heaven and hell are still effective imo.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24533" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T17:21:00" style="background-color: hsl(140, 40%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T17:21:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">How about a Penitent Church just for old times sake, a Sack Cloth and Ashes Church?</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24534" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T17:26:00" style="background-color: hsl(174, 73%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T17:26:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">My wife is in CathoIic Charismatic RenewaI. It's basicaIIy about reigniting or converting to CathoIic faith with a newer, more persuasive approach, rather borrowed from Baptists and EvangeIicaIs near as I can teII.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24535" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="Scott Weinberg" data-date="2014-09-28T17:42:00" style="background-color: hsl(149, 68%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Scott Weinberg at 2014-09-28T17:42:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">It is sad that this thread moves faster than my eyes can follow; but Dr. Goyette for the college spells out what he believes the term "faith seeking understanding means, and in his address says that for St. Anselm this means a reasoned demonstration of the existence of God, and this is not at all what St. Anselm meant by faith seeking understanding. For Anselm, fides quaerens intellectum means "an active love of God seeking a deeper knowledge of God. "Neque enim quaero intelligere ut credam, sed credo ut intelligam. Nam et hoc credo, quia, nisi credidero, non intelligam." ("Nor do I seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe that I may understand. For this, too, I believe, that, unless I first believe, I shall not understand.") <br />So Goyette it seems is describing a sacred theology that is not a fully Catholic sacred theology, but one which he limits to natural theology.<br />The Light of Faith, the encyclical, in fact spells out quite beautifully what faith seeking understanding really means and the previous three Popes have spelled out beautifully the means and ends of sacred theology.<br />It is sad the college does not use these definitions, but the constricted one provided by Goyette.<br />I knew Goyette when he was in his 20s. He was very stubborn, and often adhered to false notions like a puppy sinking its teeth into the cuff of someone's trousers. I will certainly pray for him and the college.<br />Sacred theology employs a wide variety of means to help the believer gain a better understanding of his faith, and not just those logical demonstrations of scientific reason which the college presents. <br />Let us talk about these beautiful paths by which the believer seeks understanding. These are the paths of love of God, the secret ways of devotion.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24536" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Michael Beitia" data-date="2014-09-28T17:47:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Michael Beitia at 2014-09-28T17:47:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, you really use a lot of words to say a little</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24537" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Rebecca Bratten" data-date="2014-09-28T17:48:00" style="background-color: hsl(125, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Rebecca Bratten at 2014-09-28T17:48:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">Weiss And yet, Aquinas WAS an innovator. He wasn't trying to be, I expect, but when one is seriously applying oneself to understanding innovation just will happen: since there's always something new to discover, or a new appreciation of already acquired truth.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24538" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T17:51:00" style="background-color: hsl(158, 58%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Edward Langley at 2014-09-28T17:51:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">There might be a sense in which Aquinas was an innovator, Rebecca, but in a much more fundamental sense he was a continuer: he developed the received understanding of philosophy and theology in such a way as to more clearly show what was contained in them.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24539" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T17:55:00" style="background-color: hsl(152, 56%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T17:55:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">You may be confusing the act of faith with fides quaerens. The latter presupposes the former. But these are good suggestions. Maybe when you start your own school, TAC will emulate your trailblazing and follow on the new paths. [@Scott]</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24540" class="entry even" data-likes="1" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T17:59:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 25%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T17:59:00 with 1 likes</div>
<p class="text">Scott, you should go to my alma mater. You would have a field day. You don't even need to invent heresies.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24541" class="entry odd" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ashman" data-date="2014-09-28T18:00:00" style="background-color: hsl(128, 51%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ashman at 2014-09-28T18:00:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">"you really use a lot of words to say a little" = phiIosopher</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24542" class="entry even" data-likes="2" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-28T18:02:00" style="background-color: hsl(162, 63%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-28T18:02:00 with 2 likes</div>
<p class="text">John Ruplinger, I would think that if this New E thing lacked "Catechism, death, judgement, heaven and hell" it wouldn't be much any kind of evangelization at all. I don't pretend to know a lot about it, but I don't think the claim is that there is need for new doctrine.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24543" class="entry odd" data-likes="3" data-name="Katherine Gardner" data-date="2014-09-28T18:05:00" style="background-color: hsl(178, 64%, 50%);">
<div class="name">Katherine Gardner at 2014-09-28T18:05:00 with 3 likes</div>
<p class="text">Or, I guess that depends whose claims we are talking about. I suspect there are as many people using that term as there are people 'explaining' Vat. II. Some will be rightly interpreting the mind of the bishops and some will be nuts.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24544" class="entry even" data-likes="0" data-name="John Ruplinger" data-date="2014-09-28T18:08:00" style="background-color: hsl(89, 55%, 50%);">
<div class="name">John Ruplinger at 2014-09-28T18:08:00 with 0 likes</div>
<p class="text">^ yes. I find it confusing.</p>
</li>
<li id="post_24545" class="entry odd" data-likes="2" data-name="Edward Langley" data-date="2014-09-28T18:26:00" style=" |